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The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:12 pm
by Prince Artemis
Hello ladies and gentlemen. I'm here today to announce that I will once again be doing a fan made, 100% digital Rifter called Rifter 0.1. I wasn't sure if I was going to do it, but Adam Kass, the guy who supplied 90% of the art emailed me today saying he was on board again, so let's do this thing.

Here are the rules:
-No Robotech. I know, I know, people want it but licensing doesn't work, especially for something like this.
-Try and spread it out in the topics. We had a pretty good mix with the first one and I want to keep that kind of thing going too.
-Multi-game submissions will get special attention but it won't be a guaranteed entry.
-Don't offer to do something if you're not going to do it! I know some of you want to offer, and either forget or something else comes up. That's understandable, but I ended up waiting 2 months last time for 4 artist who offered but never delivered, and I won't do that again.
- For those of you sending multiple things, PLEASE!!!! send them all as separate files. You can send them all in as one email, but I really don't want to go fishing through a huge doc file looking for where one submission ends and the other begins.
-Unless it's something innovative, try and have the submission be an actual article. The skill list and 'phone book' were cool, but I don't want to have too many more of them.
-Treat this as your bible for submitting. Specifically the technical and tips.
-This is volunteer only. Don't go into this expecting money, you're in the wrong place for that.

Here's the submission process:
1. Email me your submission or submission. Include with it a summary of it that I can read before I get your contract so I can get Adam working on models likely used for the art. When I get your submission, I'll email you my mailing address so you can send the form. I won't read your submission until I get that form. Also include you real name, age and full mailing address. Please keep me up to date if this changes before step 5 or it'll cause a fair amount of chaos.

2. Once I get your form, I'll read it over and decide if it works for the edition. I'll then send you an email telling you if it does or not. If it doesn't, I'll try to explain why if I have the time. If it does but needs some changes, I'll also let you know so you can work on making the changes.

3. Once I get everything I expect to get, I'll be sending the files and contracts off to Kevin and Wayne for them to check and give their seal of approval. Just because it's volunteer doesn't mean they don't want it to be quality.

4. Once I get the thumbs up on what I can use, I'll call for artists. Email me if you have a genuine interest and I'll send you a list of things you can work on to match the articles I have. If you can't do any of it, please let me know. If you can then please, keep me up to date on how it's coming and when I could expect to see it. Yes, you need to send a form as well, I suggest sending it to me when you first decide to do it, not when you finish. If I get the form then I can do stuff with your art as soon as you send it. I'm only looking for scanned in art btw. I don't have the capacity to work with real art. This means digital is also a good idea if you're good at it.

5. Once I get a basic set up going, with the art submissions and articles, I'll send it all back to Palladium so they can send out the contracts. Luckily, since we've been through this already, they should be able to use the same contracts so this step won't take so long. I'll also be sending out a round of emails, letting folks know to expect the contracts.

6. Once the contracts are done, and sent back to Palladium, I'll do my final edit on the book and send it to them. Once they get a read over it and make sure everything looks good, then it'll end up on the net.

As you can see, it's a fairly long process. We likely won't see 0.1 till the fall at the very least. The first Rifter 0 took a full year, but now that we know the process we might be able to cut that time down significantly.

Submissions should be sent to rifter0@gmail.com with '0.1 Submission' as your subject. I will not be setting a submission dead line this time, however when I get what I think is enough, I'll be shutting down submissions, so sooner is MUCH better than later.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:15 pm
by Northern Ranger
Prince Aremis, do you have a theme for 0.1? Something we can refer to for a "flavor" to our submissions? I have a few ideas of things to send, but don't want to send them for no reason. I sent a submission to you last time but didn't get my legal form to you in time, so this time I'll remedy that. But is there anything in particular you'd want for this?

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:53 pm
by Tags
Hmmm, I do happen to have several ideas... May as well give it a shot.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:33 pm
by Prince Artemis
No unifying theme, send whatever you want :)

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:07 pm
by Novastar
Prince Artemis wrote:No unifying theme, send whatever you want :)

lol.
You'll figure out a "theme", after you see what you actually get in hand, eh? ;)

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:01 pm
by Prince Artemis
Novastar wrote:
Prince Artemis wrote:No unifying theme, send whatever you want :)

lol.
You'll figure out a "theme", after you see what you actually get in hand, eh? ;)


Nope, the theme is a entire voluteer rifter...

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:36 pm
by Big Red
It's my understanding that, unless you get an official rejection, you can not resubmit it.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:35 pm
by MrMom
Well I for one am going to submitt some things that I have never heard back about. If wayne wanted them for the rifter then he should have responded to one of the many emails i sent him about them.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:30 pm
by Prince Artemis
Okay, since three people made this same mistake, I'll post this here in it's own post since it wasn't clear in the original post:

Submissions MUST be in MS word format, don't just copy and past it into the email itself, it's useless to me. No offense, just making it clear what and why.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:32 pm
by glitterboy2098
how about Rich text format for those not using a microsoft based program? .rtf is compatable with just about every word processor, and it preserves formatting...


a helpful tip for any document file though. when e-mailing, put th file(s) in a zip folder, and attach the zip to the email. prevents the email provider from scrambling the document, which can happen if you just attach directly.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:35 am
by NMI
Colonel Lyboc wrote:If this question has been asked and answered, I apologize, but here we go: If I submitted something to the official Rifter which was rejected (or, at least, I never heard back), can I still submit it for the Rifter 0 series? I understand that it might be rejected again (ouch!), but is there any other reason it's not allowed?

Thanks!

I dont see why you cant. I say go for it.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:40 pm
by Northern Ranger
Already made two submissions and the legal mumbo jumbo is in the mail! Looking forward to this. Hopefully I make it.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:52 pm
by Damian Magecraft
Prince Artemis wrote:Okay, since three people made this same mistake, I'll post this here in it's own post since it wasn't clear in the original post:

Submissions MUST be in MS word format, don't just copy and past it into the email itself, it's useless to me. No offense, just making it clear what and why.

glitterboy brought up a good point...
what about those of us who do not have MS word? All my stuff tends to be in notepad.
Also are there any other format guidelines we should follow?

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:58 pm
by Prince Artemis
Damian Magecraft wrote:
Prince Artemis wrote:Okay, since three people made this same mistake, I'll post this here in it's own post since it wasn't clear in the original post:

Submissions MUST be in MS word format, don't just copy and past it into the email itself, it's useless to me. No offense, just making it clear what and why.

glitterboy brought up a good point...
what about those of us who do not have MS word? All my stuff tends to be in notepad.
Also are there any other format guidelines we should follow?


As long as it is a doc file I should be able to open it that's good. My point was that you do NOT send the submission as the body of your email.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:51 pm
by Novastar
Sent off my HU2 submittal to you, PA. :D

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:40 pm
by Prince Artemis
Okay folks, I have gotten 4-6 letters from people with their forms. I'll be emailing the people I got them from soon. Sorry about that, I've been busy so I completely forgot to mention this.

Just a reiteration. The forms must be mailed in physical form. NO scans, NO pdfs, NO virtual signatures. Paper and ink (or pencil if you have to).

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:31 pm
by Misfit KotLD
Sorry, I'm still writing here.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:11 am
by AlanGunhouse
Just wondering: it has been so long, has this project been shelved? If so, should I resubmit my files to the regular Rifter? Can I even do that after submitting to Rifter #0.1?

In case you forget, I submitted stuff for Ecowizards and a new HU class.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 8:07 pm
by Prince Artemis
It's not shelved, I'm just waiting for more stuff to come in so I'll have a full book. I currently have enough for half. I keep mentioning it on my show but I guess I should be saying that here. I was talking to some people here that are thinking on submitting stuff.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 8:11 pm
by Misfit KotLD
Prince Artemis wrote:It's not shelved, I'm just waiting for more stuff to come in so I'll have a full book. I currently have enough for half. I keep mentioning it on my show but I guess I should be saying that here. I was talking to some people here that are thinking on submitting stuff.
Remind me to get my butt back in gear. I'm only taking one class over the summer and moving to Maryland.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Sat May 02, 2009 3:39 am
by Lord Z
Thank you for the update, Prince A-Bomb. I was prepping the After Midnight update for the Rifter #0.2 (if there will be such a creature). Should I push this project to the proverbial front burner to provide more filler material?

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 4:49 pm
by Lord Z
Hi guys,

I offered to take over the Project if Matthew didn't want it anymore. Matthew offered to talk with Kevin about it. Well, it's been two or three weeks since the Open House, and I don't know where we stand. It's been probably a couple of months since I heard from Matthew. It's been since December that the Rifter Zero forum was last updated, and that was by me.

I am making this post to ask for opinions. Here's the question -- should I call Wayne and ask him?

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 3:00 pm
by Xar
Lord Z wrote:Hi guys,

I offered to take over the Project if Matthew didn't want it anymore. Matthew offered to talk with Kevin about it. Well, it's been two or three weeks since the Open House, and I don't know where we stand. It's been probably a couple of months since I heard from Matthew. It's been since December that the Rifter Zero forum was last updated, and that was by me.

I am making this post to ask for opinions. Here's the question -- should I call Wayne and ask him?


I would think that a good phone conversation with Wayne would be beneficial.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 1:52 pm
by The Galactus Kid
PM Matthew too

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 2:57 pm
by Lord Z
Okay, I will give it a shot. I am not expecting a response. Matthew has stated on his own show that he doesn't respond to private messages. He recommends reaching him through the Rifter Zero gmail account. I've changed my schedule around so that I can attend the Gateway show tonight (if there will be one). That might be the only way to the guy.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 8:21 pm
by Lord Z
Oops, there is no show tonight. Please disregard the last two sentences of that message.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:52 am
by Lord Z
Dude, Matthew has at LEAST two hundred pages of material for 0.1 which do not fit this theme. Let the guy get 0.1 out first. Your concept would make a great 0.2.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:54 pm
by Lord Z
You do it, RGG!

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:54 pm
by Lord Z
I spoke with Wayne. I will be contacting the other contributors soon. Please watch for updates in the 2011 Status thread.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:45 pm
by Lord Z
Here is a list of the articles actually received so far...

'Anthropology 101: The Palladium World' for Palladium Fantasy
'Basecamp 13' for Mechanoids
'Boxed Nightmares 2' for Beyond the Supernatural
'Psi-Dentist P.C.C.' for Rifts (1st edition interestingly)
'Megaversal Being' for any Palladium game
'Seeds of Our Past' for After the Bomb

Now is the time to send me those UMFs, contributors. Soon, I am going to start pestering you.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:46 pm
by Lord Z
Today is the last day to taking unexpected contributions! They are pouring in, also.

Don't forget that signed UMF! Today is the deadline for those as well.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:52 pm
by Shawn Merrow
About 85% done, think I can finish that by tonight.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:23 pm
by Lord Z
Thanks Shawn, I am very curious to see what you've made. That being said, don't kill yourself.

Here is a list of the articles actually received so far...
'Anthropology 101: The Palladium World' for Palladium Fantasy
'Basecamp 13' for Mechanoids
'Boxed Nightmares 2' for Beyond the Supernatural
'Psi-Dentist P.C.C.' for Rifts (1st edition, interestingly)
'Megaversal Being' for any Palladium game
'Seeds of Our Past' for After the Bomb
'Private Security Firms' for Ninjas & Superspies

Stories received so far...
'Shadow Falls on the Night Sky' for Palladium Fantasy
'Acceptence' a novella for Rifts
Untitled, a short piece for Beyond the Supernatural/Nightbane

Original Artwork received so far...
1 b&w piece for Mechanoids
3 b&w pieces for Beyond the Supernatural
1 color piece for After the Bomb
1 color zombie sketch for Dead Reign
1 b&w piece for Ninjas & Superspies
3 b&w pieces, not yet placed
1 3D town map as a Google Sketchup file

Personal task: The Shadow People article is just not getting done today. When I can, I am instead working on an article about zombies for Dead Reign RPG. My home game group made up some new types, and I am typing their notes.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:37 pm
by Shawn Merrow
My computer and OpenOffice felt today was a good day to crash. I only lost a few sentences but will be tomorrow night when I send you the file.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:25 pm
by Lord Z
Thanks for the update, Big S.

I think I have a gremlin character who is smoking a victory cigar right now.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:56 pm
by Lord Z
Here is the latest up-to-date update!

Articles received so far...
'Anthropology 101: The Palladium World' for Palladium Fantasy
'Basecamp 13' for Mechanoids
'Boxed Nightmares 2' for Beyond the Supernatural
'Psi-Dentist P.C.C.' for Rifts (1st edition, interestingly)
'Megaversal Being' for any Palladium game
'Seeds of Our Past' for After the Bomb
'Private Security Firms' for Ninjas & Superspies
'Weendigo Curse: New Zombie Types and Some Lore' for Dead Reign
'New Generation Skin Jobs' for Splicers
'Yokai of Japan' for Beyond the Supernatural
'Deep Frontier' for Rifts, Underseas setting
'New Navy R&D' for Rifts, Undersea setting
'Skyknight Industries' for Rifts, Arnzo setting

Stories received so far...
'Shadow Falls on the Night Sky' for Palladium Fantasy
'Acceptance' a novella for Rifts
Untitled, a short piece for Beyond the Supernatural/Nightbane

Original Artwork received so far...
1 b&w piece for Mechanoids
3 b&w pieces for Beyond the Supernatural
1 color piece for After the Bomb
1 B&w zombie sketch for Dead Reign
1 b&w large zombie piece for Dead Reign
1 b&w piece for Ninjas & Superspies
Several vehicle sketches for New Navy
4 b&w pieces, not yet placed
1 3D town map as a Google Sketchup file

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:57 pm
by Lord Z
Articles received so far...
'Anthropology 101: The Palladium World' for Palladium Fantasy
'Basecamp 13' for Mechanoids
'Boxed Nightmares 2' for Beyond the Supernatural
'Psi-Dentist P.C.C.' for Rifts (1st edition, interestingly)
'Megaversal Being' for any Palladium game
'Seeds of Our Past' for After the Bomb
'Private Security Firms' for Ninjas & Superspies
'Weendigo Curse: New Zombie Types and Some Lore' for Dead Reign
'New Generation Skin Jobs' for Splicers
'Yokai of Japan' for Beyond the Supernatural
'Deep Frontier' for Rifts, Underseas setting
'New Navy R&D' for Rifts, Undersea setting
'Skyknight Industries' for Rifts, Arnzo setting
'Ebon Forge' for Nightbane
'Dimensional Trap Door Spider' a multi-game monster
'Megaversal Ambassadors', an interview

Stories received so far...
'Shadow Falls on the Night Sky' for Palladium Fantasy
'Acceptance' a novella for Rifts

Original Artwork received so far...
1 b&w piece for Mechanoids
3 b&w pieces for Beyond the Supernatural
1 color piece for After the Bomb
1 B&w zombie sketch for Dead Reign
1 b&w large zombie piece for Dead Reign
1 b&w piece for Ninjas & Superspies
Several vehicle sketches for New Navy
4 b&w pieces, not yet placed
1 3D town map as a Google Sketchup file
1 big honkin b&w battle illustration, Rifts vs Mechanoids
4 b&w illustrations for PF
4 b&w illustrations for HU

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:46 pm
by Shawn Merrow
Getting some really interesting looking submission.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:20 pm
by jaymz
I am looking forward to getting a copy of this. :ok: keep it up guys! :)

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:03 pm
by Prysus
Greetings and Salutations. Hmm ... looking at it we have 9 game lines covered, plus a few megaversal articles. If we had articles for Recon, System Failure, and Heroes Unlimited we would actually have articles for EVERY Palladium game line (not counting lisenced lines which we can't include).

Then we have two short stories (and one's a freaking novella!).

Hmm ... well, if we include pictures, we can say we cover Heroes Unlimited (it has 4 pictures, but no article). Actually, looking at it, we have art for 9 game lines (plus 4 not yet assigned). Out of the 9 articles only Splicers doesn't have any artwork yet.

Having seen some of the material (and written others), I'm very anxious to see this product finished. This thing should end up being HUGE! Not to mention interesting. *Bounces up and down like an excited little kid.* A long time in the making, but I think should be well worth the wait once this is published (in PDF format).

Anyways, just me looking on with wide eyed optimism. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:35 am
by Scott Gibbons
Prysus wrote:
Hmm ... looking at it we have 9 game lines covered, plus a few megaversal articles. If we had articles for Recon, System Failure, and Heroes Unlimited we would actually have articles for EVERY Palladium game line (not counting lisenced lines which we can't include).


I'm working on a Systems Failure article, but alas, it will not be done by the end of March. Or April. Or most likely May. Maybe not even by the end of June... :lol:

Prysus wrote:
Then we have two short stories (and one's a freaking novella!).


Well, I hope the novella lives up to people's desires and expectations.

Personally I'm looking forward to seeing the art as much as the articles. We've got some amazing amateur and semi-professional artists in our ranks, and I can't wait to see what everyone is turning in.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:11 am
by Prysus
Involved Observer wrote:Well, I hope the novella lives up to people's desires and expectations.

Greetings and Salutations. Well, no offense, but I'm hoping people like the short story better than the novella. Though I could be biased. :lol: But seriously, I'm sure it'll do great. I'm interested in checking it out (and I'm not a Rifts player). Should be lots of fun.

As for the art, agreed. Whenever I had my work printed in a Rifter I always got more excited about the art than seeing my work. The first thing I'd do when I got it in the mail is open up the Rifter to my article and then flip through so I could see the art.

There's so many fun things to look forward to with this project. Variety of articles, stories, great art, helping Alex, and just in general seeing all the fans come together to make this a reality. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:56 pm
by Lord Z
D'oh! We do have a HU article, quite a large one in fact. Phantasia Dominia is a new world setting for HU, sort of similar to the Astral Domain. The article includes three new spellcaster classes who draw on the power from this realm in different ways and several new monsters. It was actually the first article given to this project after the greenlighting. I somehow left it out of the above list -- sorry, Mephisto!

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 4:34 pm
by Lord Z
DONE! The package goes into the mail, addressed to Wayne as soon as I can find time to visit a post office.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Sat May 21, 2011 3:08 pm
by Lord Z
The package has been sent.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:46 am
by Zenvis
Lord Z wrote:Here is a list of the articles actually received so far...

'Anthropology 101: The Palladium World' for Palladium Fantasy
'Basecamp 13' for Mechanoids
'Boxed Nightmares 2' for Beyond the Supernatural
'Psi-Dentist P.C.C.' for Rifts (1st edition interestingly)
'Megaversal Being' for any Palladium game
'Seeds of Our Past' for After the Bomb

Now is the time to send me those UMFs, contributors. Soon, I am going to start pestering you.



Woa woa... I submitted some stuff to Rifter 0.1 over two years ago. Is any of that stuff added? How did these guys get selected? Augh gesh, never mind.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:39 am
by Prysus
Zenvis wrote:Woa woa... I submitted some stuff to Rifter 0.1 over two years ago. Is any of that stuff added? How did these guys get selected? Augh gesh, never mind.

Greetings and Salutations. Prince Artemis (who originally started the project) canceled it. Anything sent to him became null and void. Lord Z picked up the project. Anyone who wanted continued participation with it had to resubmit their work and UMF to him. That was a few months ago already. If you did this, then your work should be included. If you did not resubmit it, then it probably isn't. Hope that helps. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:07 pm
by Spinachcat
Zenvis wrote:Woa woa... I submitted some stuff to Rifter 0.1 over two years ago.


Definitely PM Lord Z.

Since we are waiting for Wayne, I wonder if an addendum could be created. Or barring that, maybe it would be good to start on Rifter 0.2 even before 0.1 comes out to pump the pipeline so a Rifter Zero can come out each year.

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:58 pm
by Scott Gibbons
Spinachcat wrote:...maybe it would be good to start on Rifter 0.2 even before 0.1 comes out to pump the pipeline so a Rifter Zero can come out each year.


I like this idea. :ok:

Re: The OFFICIAL Rifter 0.1 thread

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:19 am
by Zenvis
Someone let me know if they are doing a 0.2 and I will submit my stuff to that.