Why don't the Gods fight the Splugorth?

[Aaryq]

I'm speaking particularly in reference to the Greek and Norse Pantheons. Atlantis was once the jewel of Greece, so don't you think the Greek Gods would do something about the Alien Menace on their beloved island? Even more of a stretch, Zeus and Odin are expecting a re-match but won't fight to the death (because they'd be to weak to lead their pantheon) so wouldn't the ultimate slap in the face to the Greeks be these "savage viking types" liberating Atlantis? It's just a thought. I doubt (and hope) that Kev doesn't move things in this area, but it's a thought that I'd like to see what you think about it.
I just find it odd that the Gods appear in a book and are rarely mentioned EVER again. I want to do something with them.

[Toc Rat]

I'm speaking particularly in reference to the Greek and Norse Pantheons. Atlantis was once the jewel of Greece, so don't you think the Greek Gods would do something about the Alien Menace on their beloved island? ...
I just find it odd that the Gods appear in a book and are rarely mentioned EVER again. I want to do something with them.

I too think it odd that the greek gods are not more involved with the Atlantean Clans in liberating their home land. Then again I find it strange that the Atlantean Clans haven't done more to re-take Atlantis themsleves.

As for Gods not doing much in the "Meta-plot" they are not alone in that. AIs tend to get introduced and then never heard from again. Take the Lord of the Deep or that frog thing in Australia. I take their lack of actions to mean that Palladium intends for them to be as big or small plot devices as the players and GMs want them to be. Something I agree with, I find the less "meta-plot" the better.

[Braden Campbell]

I think that the gods only go to war when their followers go to war. In Pantheons, it says several times that the gods of people A fought the gods of people B as the mortals battled below. And when people A are victorious, the gods of people B are summarily defeated.

The gods are created and sustained by the beliefs of mortals... it may be that, in large part, their actions are directed by us as well. They themselves probably believe otherwise, which is what makes it all so funny, that we puny little creatures are, in the long run, more powerful than they.

So If the Atlanteans fought the Splugorth, then I think the Greek Gods would just so happen to attack at the same time. Same for the Norse. Problem is, none of those mortals has yet got the cahones to start the ball rolling.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I think that the gods only go to war when their followers go to war. In Pantheons, it says several times that the gods of people A fought the gods of people B as the mortals battled below. And when people A are victorious, the gods of people B are summarily defeated.

The gods are created and sustained by the beliefs of mortals... it may be that, in large part, their actions are directed by us as well. They themselves probably believe otherwise, which is what makes it all so funny, that we puny little creatures are, in the long run, more powerful than they.

So If the Atlanteans fought the Splugorth, then I think the Greek Gods would just so happen to attack at the same time. Same for the Norse. Problem is, none of those mortals has yet got the cahones to start the ball rolling.

so you are saying the all powerful gods are cowards and cant start nothing on thier own

[BookWyrm]

And besides, if you remember the various attempts Marvel did at "Ragnarok" with the Thor pantheon, they did everything they could to either halt it all together or at least slow it down enough to make some kind of preparations.

A battle between the Splugorth and any of the Gods of any Pantheon would quickly degenerate into a multiverse-spanning campaign that would leave both sides weakened to the point of collapse. Then the vultures swoop in (vampire int's, various other foes of said combatants) and mess things up even further. Remember what's happening with the Seige of Tolkeen Aftermath?
Point made.

[Aramanthus]

And don't forget that the old ones could step back into the picture again. Especially if the one gods holding the barrier are dead and gone.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'm speaking particularly in reference to the Greek and Norse Pantheons. Atlantis was once the jewel of Greece, so don't you think the Greek Gods would do something about the Alien Menace on their beloved island? Even more of a stretch, Zeus and Odin are expecting a re-match but won't fight to the death (because they'd be to weak to lead their pantheon) so wouldn't the ultimate slap in the face to the Greeks be these "savage viking types" liberating Atlantis? It's just a thought. I doubt (and hope) that Kev doesn't move things in this area, but it's a thought that I'd like to see what you think about it.
I just find it odd that the Gods appear in a book and are rarely mentioned EVER again. I want to do something with them.

why not? because it flat out isn't worth the recourses to do so.

their religions on earth are all but gone, they are WEAK there now, no match for splyncryth or his armies.

any sort of real attack means transporting MILLIONS of their worshipers to earth, which, frankly, requires a great deal of effort, more than they can really spare. secondly, even those millions of worshipers as an army is no match for splyncryth's army of ZILLIONS

[Hannibal]

In addition to the good points about the relationship between mortal belief and the Gods, I could also see the perspective that the Pantheons are, collectively speaking, lazy. Individual gods might be motivated for such a big, dangerous task of taking down a splugorth empire, but such a task would require the bulk of a pantheon, if not more, and I think most gods would be too lazy or selfish to do it. In the case of the Greek Gods, I could see them all complaining about the Splugorth and talking a good fight, but there are too many disparate interests and lazy Gods in the Pantheon to get them united to actually take on Atlantis.

[cornholioprime]

They don't face off agianst the Splugorth because they lack the resources to do so.

Also, they (The Brahmanic and Vedic Pantheons) got their arses whupped but good when the Splugorth decided to pay them a visit.

In the Palladium Game Setting, the Forces of Light count their blessings that EVERYONE, including most of the Forces of Darkness, hate the Splugorth and don't usually assoiciate with them........

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

I'm speaking particularly in reference to the Greek and Norse Pantheons. Atlantis was once the jewel of Greece, so don't you think the Greek Gods would do something about the Alien Menace on their beloved island? Even more of a stretch, Zeus and Odin are expecting a re-match but won't fight to the death (because they'd be to weak to lead their pantheon) so wouldn't the ultimate slap in the face to the Greeks be these "savage viking types" liberating Atlantis? It's just a thought. I doubt (and hope) that Kev doesn't move things in this area, but it's a thought that I'd like to see what you think about it.
I just find it odd that the Gods appear in a book and are rarely mentioned EVER again. I want to do something with them.

why not? because it flat out isn't worth the recourses to do so.

their religions on earth are all but gone, they are WEAK there now, no match for splyncryth or his armies.

any sort of real attack means transporting MILLIONS of their worshipers to earth, which, frankly, requires a great deal of effort, more than they can really spare. secondly, even those millions of worshipers as an army is no match for splyncryth's army of ZILLIONS

Bingo.

Also, IIRC, the Splugorth have some allies that are either Gods or on a "Godlike level."

An argument could probably be made about status quo and Universal Balance...

~ Josh

[RainOfSteel]

Atlantis was once the jewel of Greece

Ancient Greece came after Atlantis, and during Atlantis' time couldn't have been anything more than a colony/outpost. (EDIT: As also noted by jigahus a few posts further up the page.)

Where were the Greek gods during this time? The answer will be dependent on the background history of the campaign.

In my Rifts universe, both the Greek and Norse gods have been around for a long time, pre-dating the inhabitation of Atlantis (and so obviously both Greece and Scandinavia).

They introduced their worship, it flourished for a time, and then faded.

so don't you think the Greek Gods would do something about the Alien Menace on their beloved island?

I see them working against the Splugorth in general, but not specifically in an attempt to gain Atlantis for territory.

My Norse Gods' stats are very tough, but even Odin would have a tough time marshalling enough troops to really take Atlantis, and that's just with Splynncryth's forces on the island and does not take into consideration the forces that Splynncryth has on other worlds.

Also in my Rifts universe, Atlantis is only an other-dimensional vacation spot for Splynncryth and for other Splugorth he wishes to impress and/or mollify. He lives at the center of a vast transgalactic empire, and the total troops available to him boggle the imagination. He would most certainly send prodigious reinforcements to defend Atlantis against divine invasion (this also happens to be my explanation for why the presence of Splynncryth's minions is so feared and yet also unchallenged, no one wants to get squished). Unless all the gods from many, many pantheons assembled a gigantic army, it is unlikely they would succeed.

Even more of a stretch, Zeus and Odin are expecting a re-match

Zeus and Odin never fought*. Both are too wise and too intelligent to ever come to blows . . . and no, the actual gods themselves are not the simpletons that some of the historical myths make them out to be.

I just find it odd that the Gods appear in a book and are rarely mentioned EVER again. I want to do something with them.

They are there to do with as GMs wish. Each idea will be so radically different from the others that it is pointless to impose canon concepts directly.

Especially since many GMs will never use the gods at all, not even in a backdrop situation. (My ideas are all background and side-story related, I never plan on introducing the gods into the game unless the players somehow go off in search of them, and that won't be easy.)

-------------------------------------

* You may be getting the idea that there are elements, sometimes many, of the Greek/Norse pantheon descriptions (especially the relationships between the two) in CB2 that I disagree with. This is a correct impression.

[RainOfSteel]

[...] A god is nothing without followers [...]

Except for those gods that existed before there were followers to have or came into being due to the actions of a god not dependent on followers.

That isn't quite all of the Greek and Norse pantheon's gods, but its most of them.

[Aaryq]

I stand corrected. It was Hercules and Thor who fought and are awaiting a re-match. So without playing godlings or demi-gods, what is your advice on utilizing Gods in a campaign? My players all agree that they would think it's interesting seeing gods taking an ACTIVE role in the overall picture of the megaverse. I just can't find a good way to work them in...

[RainOfSteel]

[...] what is your advice on utilizing Gods in a campaign? My players all agree that they would think it's interesting seeing gods taking an ACTIVE role in the overall picture of the megaverse. I just can't find a good way to work them in...

It depends. If you use the canon stats for the gods, then then are pretty wimpy. Apsu ("ink-splotch with an eye") may have 250K MDC, but his attack bonuses are terrible.

Their attacks and weapons are often only a little better than the technological weapons produced by mortals.

I beef up their items, bonuses, and usually give them a few other classes based on the fact that they been around for so long. They really have had time to pursue them, and unlike mortals, really don't have much in the way of memory problems or deterioration.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, what to do with them?

First of all, actually having the gods enter the game and take a direct action may not go as well as you think.

If the gods are truly powerful, as they should be, they will trounce the players with all their deeds. The players will probably feel that there is no reason for them to do things.

If the gods are not truly powerful (for whatever reason), then they will be disappointments.

Perhaps the players can merely hear about the exploits of a few of the gods in one place or another, from a distance? But that is only faint background information, and probably of little direct interest to the players.

Overall, except in highly specialized circumstances* (or super high powered campaigns), I really don't think that having the gods directly present to act in the game is such a good idea.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

* Such as the players having quested to locate Asgard, and further sojurned therein to locate Odin to ask for his wisdom and advice in a certain matter; or a similar quest to locate the zenith of Mt. Olympus. Or perhaps catching a glimpse of a god or goddess out of the corner of one eye while walking down a city street.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

well atlantis had 8 sons and 8 daughters of Poseidon but yet nothing is said about that

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Zeus has a daughter currently working for an organization called "The Liberated Underground" in WB21 (Splynn D-Market). According to this, he helps his daughter in small ways (like providing her with a constant supply of lightning arrows), and would like to help more but he isn't able.

If you would like to involve the Greek pantheon more, his daughter could be a catalyst for more involvement.

In fact, the children of any god (i.e. demigods) could be as a tool to draw them into a conflict (assuming the god cares about their child).

yeah zeus compare to archie , archie is more active then zeus

[Killer Cyborg]

Zeus has a daughter currently working for an organization called "The Liberated Underground" in WB21 (Splynn D-Market). According to this, he helps his daughter in small ways (like providing her with a constant supply of lightning arrows), and would like to help more but he isn't able.

If you would like to involve the Greek pantheon more, his daughter could be a catalyst for more involvement.

In fact, the children of any god (i.e. demigods) could be as a tool to draw them into a conflict (assuming the god cares about their child).

yeah zeus compare to archie , archie is more active then zeus

Nonsense.
Zeuss is extremely active.
Why do you think he has so many children?

He just has different priorities than Archie.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Zeus has a daughter currently working for an organization called "The Liberated Underground" in WB21 (Splynn D-Market). According to this, he helps his daughter in small ways (like providing her with a constant supply of lightning arrows), and would like to help more but he isn't able.

If you would like to involve the Greek pantheon more, his daughter could be a catalyst for more involvement.

In fact, the children of any god (i.e. demigods) could be as a tool to draw them into a conflict (assuming the god cares about their child).

yeah zeus compare to archie , archie is more active then zeus

Nonsense.
Zeuss is extremely active.
Why do you think he has so many children?

He just has different priorities than Archie.

yup himself,himself,himself,himself,himself,himself,himself,himself yup thats zeus

[Nekira Sudacne]

[...] A god is nothing without followers [...]

Except for those gods that existed before there were followers to have or came into being due to the actions of a god not dependent on followers.

That isn't quite all of the Greek and Norse pantheon's gods, but its most of them.

not really. in most cases, the beings that came before mortals were in every case actually a kind of Alien Intelligence. the Titans that are the father of Zues and Co.

Zurvan created Ahura Mazda and Ahirman in an experiment.

not to mention Apsu and Tiamat came first...

hell, even the native american's had their Great Spirits that are about equal to the gods before they had the gods themselves.

the only exception are the norse gods, who decended from Greater Norse Giants, who are "the equals of gods" before there WERE gods.



the orignators in every case are not gods, but non-gods of godlike power. the worship around them generated new and different myths about them, which in turn spawned new gods that embodied those myths.

[RainOfSteel]

not really. in most cases, the beings that came before mortals were in every case actually a kind of Alien Intelligence. the Titans that are the father of Zues and Co.

Zeus came before any human. So did most of the rest of the Greek pantheon.

the only exception are the norse gods, who decended from Greater Norse Giants, who are "the equals of gods" before there WERE gods.

Odin's parents were Bor and Bestla, and they were not giants. I can't specifically recall any of the major Norse gods who had giant parents except Hel (Loki and a giantess as parents).

The Norse gods don't specifically predate humanity as the Greek gods do*, but the references often describe them in a context that implies that they are humans themselves, that just happen to have incredible powers.

However, a study of comparitive religion shows massive similarities (and, of course, many differences) between the Norse and Greek gods. If the majority of the Greek gods predate humanity, then we can also posit that the Norse gods are also in this state.

*Depending on exactly what source you are reading.

the orignators in every case are not gods, but non-gods of godlike power.

I don't see this at all.

[RainOfSteel]

Zeuss is extremely active.
Why do you think he has so many children?

He just has different priorities than Archie.

Different priorities, or different activities?

[Wise_Owl]

The Short answer is that it would be an idiotic move. Sure the Norse and Greek Pantheons may like to see Atlantis toppled. I'm sure the US would have liked to See Stalingrad be an Market Economy City in the 70's, but in both cases the Big Picture is ignored. Atlantis is important as a trade debot to the Splugorth, and more specifically to One Splugorth. Attacking it would require emmense resources for the gain of a tiny corner of a planet saturated with other trans-dimensional powers. Earth isn't the only game in town. THere are battles played out across the mulit-verse between God and God, God and Demon, God and Intelligence, etc. All work in tiny ways to undermine their enemies where they can, but outright conflicts are going to be rare, especially on a world with a balance as precarious as Rifts Earth. I mean if the Gods teamed up and tried to destroy atalantis, what would Zyprhan Do? How about the Yama Kings? The Vampire Intelligences of Mexico? Like China in the late 19th century the Big Powers have agreed no one group can be allowed to control it, and so a kind of 'balance' is struck.

[Rimmer]

Would you really want to be on the sae planet as two super saiyans who were going for it ? i imagine the same sort of carnage with one of the pantheons taking on the sploogies, i guess neither side wants to blow up the planet.

[AnubisXy]

Simply put, the gods would get the ever-holy crap beat out out of them if they tried to take on Splynncryth. Splynny has massive armies of slave races, incredibly powerful weapons of destruction, dragons, space ships... just about anything you can imagine. What does Zeus have? A magical Thunderbolt... and a shield... yeah, awesome, that's great, just great.

We haven't seen awhole lot on the followers of various gods. For the most part though, the followers of gods (in general) tend not to be overly advanced in a technological way. A good example of this in Phase World. This is one setting where magic and technology are heavily combined. There's a planet that is controlled by the Norse Pantheon. High tech seems to be pretty uncommon there for the most part. When the Mechanoids attacked Posidon's world, he didn't a have a fleet of his own starships fly out and defend them. He, personally, went out and kicked ass.

The New Incan Empire (in south america) really seemed to be the exception, rather than the rule, with technology being at least somewhat common there, and likely only because of the impending Archon threat and their mastery of even more advanced technology.

In addition, the greek gods (and most gods) on Rifts Earth aren't particularly badass. With the exception of the south american deities and the egyption deities, none of the Pantheons have major nations of worshippers ready to fight and die for them.

In short, they would end up having to take a stab at Splynncryth pretty much by themselves. Now, the Splugorth are a pretty savvy race. They fight amongst eachother quite a bit, but I'm pretty sure that, in general, they're willing to band together (temporarily) to fight outside threats. If the Norse gods started knocking over Atlantis, one of the other splugorth in the Three Galaxies would start attacking one of their other worlds since the gods aren't home.

AnubisXy

[Mech-Viper Prime]

no zeus could really mess up atlantis bad , just release the Hundred handed there and make a deal with atlas to lead them in exchange for his freedom

[Nekira Sudacne]

no zeus could really mess up atlantis bad , just release the Hundred handed there and make a deal with atlas to lead them in exchange for his freedom

not really. the Hundred Handed are vunerable to mass-attacks. they couldn't even put a dent in the Overlords population.

[AnubisXy]

Okay, assuming Zeus went all out, yes he could destroy Atlantis. If he brokered a deal with the Titans, released them and sent all the Hundred Handed raging down on Atlantis in a massive mob, yeah, Atlantis would fall. But, this isn't going to happen... ever. You can consider this to be Zeus' "trump card". His ultimate move. He's gonna save that for when the Old Ones decide to come pay him a visit... or the Mechanoids show up en-masse and start wiping out his worlds. He's gonna sit back until someone messes with him... he's not going to go looking for trouble.

And he certainly isn't going to do this just to destroy a measily Splugorth for some silly Atlanteans, no matter how nice they are. If he actually did this, every other power group in the Megaverse is going to sit up and say, "Oh ****!" The Splugorth don't mind seeing one of their kind bite the dust, but if they think Zeus could pose a threat to them (and if he's actively sending out gajillions of god-like beings, he is definitely a threat), they're going to gather their armies and kick some ass. They don't like eachother, but when it comes down too it, better to work together for the moment than get crushed seperately.

The Olyimpian Pantheon would quickly find its' worlds getting bombed from orbit. Yeah, they could personally go up into space and fight back, but they ultimately, they would get crushed unless they started fielding battlefleets of their own.

One of the most powerful abilities that the Splugorth have is space and air mastery. Sadly this is the one thing that Splynncryth really lacks on Earth (thanks to all the Kill Sats in space), and the major thing preventing him from becoming the real "ruler" of the world.

AnubisXy

[RainOfSteel]

You can't use RL mythology straight up for Rifts gods.

Well, I can't use it exactly, but I can exploit it to better ends.

In Rifts humans weren't formed one fine day out of dirt or clay, they evolved from apes over a period of millions of years.

Uh, no. In the RW, yes, but not my Rifts universe. The Old Ones and their enemies locked in war that spanned trillions of universes and involved time travel, it completely messed with the structure of space and time. Prior to the war, space and time did not quite resemble what they do today. After the war, they resemble what we see today, Cosmic Background Radiation, evolultion of the galaxies, evolution of the species, but that wasn't always the way it was, it just looks that way today because the "good guys" won the war (though they couldn't manage to keep all the lesser evils, like the whole Splugorth race, from escaping).

AFAIK, canon does not say for certain that humans really did come from a prior common ancestor of primates. Given the interference of AIs and gods in Megaversal history, I just find it to be unlikely.

In any event, even in the RW, we did not descend from apes, chimps, or any of the primates. They are cousins of a common ancestor and our relationship is very distant. I have no idea why some people freak out about it (and some do), but every human on Earth is a closer relative to every other human than to any primate by at least a million years, possibly more.

I don't really believe the any of the specific gods actually pre-date humanity in the Megaverse, I do however believe that many gods came into existence without the assistance of worshippers.

Zeus is said, in Pantheons, to be "over 5,000 years" old. Technically he could be millions of years old then, but I rather doubt it. In general gods tend to be youngish compared to AIs anyway.

I guest that depends on how you see the descriptions of the pantheons in CB2. I see them as, well, let's not get into that argument.

I dismiss almost all the CB2 descriptions of the Norse gods, and have issues with the descriptions of the Greek gods. There, that should sum up my position fairly well.

CB2 says that the principle greek gods (Zeus, Hades, Hera, etc) were children/created by Chronos. In Rifts, Chronos is an Alien Intelligence. So is Anu and Apsu in the Babylonian pantheon, and Zurvan in the Zoroastrian pantheon.

The titans may have been AIs, but I rather doubt it (I'm not saying that CB2 doesn't say it, I'm saying it's conclusions are undesirable).

The Greek and Norse gods are very human-like in many ways. AIs aren't human-like, and I do not believe they could creatively have children that so resembled what they have either hated or considered to be cattle for eons.

And it would make Prometheus into a good AI who liked humans and supported them. Seems like a likely candidate for a Shifter to latch onto (at least a Shifter who didn't want to get eaten by its evil master in the end.)

The real Titans of Greek myth would have been something else yet again. They all had positions and portfolios, just like the gods themselves, in some ways, they were a part of the pantheon, even after their defeat.

[RainOfSteel]

Would you really want to be on the sae planet as two super saiyans who were going for it ? i imagine the same sort of carnage with one of the pantheons taking on the sploogies, i guess neither side wants to blow up the planet.

Goku vs. Vegeta, both Super Saiyan 4? Super Saiyan 1 was sufficient to blow up a planet.

At 4 they could personally take on an Old One. With fuzion, they could do it handily.

That's why they don't really appears in my Rifts universe (that, and any prospective player I would GM for would chase me out of the room upon discovering them).

Hmm, Saiyan RCC? Oops, can't. (Gah! I can't even post a joke version!)

[RainOfSteel]

Simply put, the gods would get the ever-holy crap beat out out of them if they tried to take on Splynncryth. Splynny has massive armies of slave races, incredibly powerful weapons of destruction, dragons, space ships... just about anything you can imagine. What does Zeus have? A magical Thunderbolt... and a shield... yeah, awesome, that's great, just great.

You perceive why I have difficulties with the deific write-ups in CB2. They wimp out the gods.

They're gods. The Greek gods defeated the Titans (and if the Titans are AIs, then this places the gods as clearly more powerful); it wasn't all the work of the hundred-handed.

In addition, the greek gods (and most gods) on Rifts Earth aren't particularly badass. With the exception of the south american deities and the egyption deities, none of the Pantheons have major nations of worshippers ready to fight and die for them.

I would agree that they have none (or very little), on Earth.

I think it is likely that they have many on other worlds.

[RainOfSteel]

no zeus could really mess up atlantis bad , just release the Hundred handed there and make a deal with atlas to lead them in exchange for his freedom

not really. the Hundred Handed are vunerable to mass-attacks. they couldn't even put a dent in the Overlords population.

I would have to agree. The canon description of the Hundred Handed is not encouraging. They have a lot of MDC, and that's it. Their bonuses and experience levels are low, and they have no special abilities or immunities. I think they might be vulnerable to mind control or suggestion just because they're saving throws aren't going to be worth much. Add in low IQ, and that's not a good mix.

[AnubisXy]

You perceive why I have difficulties with the deific write-ups in CB2. They wimp out the gods.

They're gods. The Greek gods defeated the Titans (and if the Titans are AIs, then this places the gods as clearly more powerful); it wasn't all the work of the hundred-handed.

Well, I kind of disagree. It's not so much that they wimped out the gods, as they decided that that is the power level a god is supposed to be on. Don't get me wrong, a deity in Rifts is freaking awesome. But even a deity can't stand up to a bombardment of anti-matter missiles, or an assault by a Khreegor Doombringer.

Gods are strong, but the might of technology is even stronger. This is one of those things that has been discussed (ad nausium) since forever. Some people hate it, some people don't.

Ultimately though, the power level in Rifts is very different from D&D. You can get a group of PCs together and go take out Zeus, or Apollo, or Set, or the 4 Horsemen of the Apocolypse or the Lord of the Deep. Gods and beings like them aren't supremely powerful. Really, they're not so different from normal people... just with alot more MDC.

Maybe that is "gimping" them but... I think that it's more of a case of technology surpassing the power of the gods (something I can totally jive with).

AnubisXy

[Mech-Viper Prime]

no zeus could really mess up atlantis bad , just release the Hundred handed there and make a deal with atlas to lead them in exchange for his freedom

not really. the Hundred Handed are vunerable to mass-attacks. they couldn't even put a dent in the Overlords population.

I would have to agree. The canon description of the Hundred Handed is not encouraging. They have a lot of MDC, and that's it. Their bonuses and experience levels are low, and they have no special abilities or immunities. I think they might be vulnerable to mind control or suggestion just because they're saving throws aren't going to be worth much. Add in low IQ, and that's not a good mix.

yeah 80ft tall 180,000 MDC with regen abilites yeah that isnt going to put a dent in overlord forces more like the hundred handed be cleaning between their toes afterwards and i'm sure zeus could find some others to help the big guys out , then throw in archie mechnoids robots , that place would be a fun place to go on holiday

[Nekira Sudacne]

Would you really want to be on the sae planet as two super saiyans who were going for it ? i imagine the same sort of carnage with one of the pantheons taking on the sploogies, i guess neither side wants to blow up the planet.

Goku vs. Vegeta, both Super Saiyan 4? Super Saiyan 1 was sufficient to blow up a planet.

At 4 they could personally take on an Old One. With fuzion, they could do it handily.

That's why they don't really appears in my Rifts universe (that, and any prospective player I would GM for would chase me out of the room upon discovering them).

Hmm, Saiyan RCC? Oops, can't. (Gah! I can't even post a joke version!)

not really.

A Super Sayian can blow up a planet, sure, an Old One can destroy an entire reality.

[RainOfSteel]

Not to mention when has teenagers one of the blew up the moon. (forget which one.)

No, it was Piccolo that blew up the moon in the lull between . . . what's his name, Goku's Saiyan brother . . . and the appearance of Vegeta, when everyone thought Goku was dead (yeah, right).

He just turned around and launched an energy bolt and blew up the moon. Never mind that he didn't have the energy rating to do that, not by two-four hundred thousand points. (Piccolo was about 300, I can't remember what the actual figure given was. Vegeta could have flicked a finger and defeated Piccolo at that point, and even he, on reaching Namek much later, was very concerned just by beings at 20,000, and they were so small they could easily be wiped out by Freeza.

Yes, they upped and upped the energy levels, and every time they went into battle, they didn't seem to be a powerful as the constant escalation seemed to imply.

Yu-Yu Hakushu also seems to suffer from this problem, although there is vasly less time spent posturing (still some, just a lot less).

[Nekira Sudacne]

no zeus could really mess up atlantis bad , just release the Hundred handed there and make a deal with atlas to lead them in exchange for his freedom

not really. the Hundred Handed are vunerable to mass-attacks. they couldn't even put a dent in the Overlords population.

I would have to agree. The canon description of the Hundred Handed is not encouraging. They have a lot of MDC, and that's it. Their bonuses and experience levels are low, and they have no special abilities or immunities. I think they might be vulnerable to mind control or suggestion just because they're saving throws aren't going to be worth much. Add in low IQ, and that's not a good mix.

yeah 80ft tall 180,000 MDC with regen abilites yeah that isnt going to put a dent in overlord forces more like the hundred handed be cleaning between their toes afterwards and i'm sure zeus could find some others to help the big guys out , then throw in archie mechnoids robots , that place would be a fun place to go on holiday

yea. take zillions of overloards. now give each of them a 5d6 MD dealing rifle per shot. they'll kill a few million hundred handed per melee round. and sinse the hundrend handed have the tacticle sense of a five year old child playing aginst a chess grandmaster, they'll going to walk helplessly into a shooting gallery. and that's assuming the splurgorth play nice.

a single carpet of adhesion and a hundred handed is a sitting duck.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

no zeus could really mess up atlantis bad , just release the Hundred handed there and make a deal with atlas to lead them in exchange for his freedom

not really. the Hundred Handed are vunerable to mass-attacks. they couldn't even put a dent in the Overlords population.

I would have to agree. The canon description of the Hundred Handed is not encouraging. They have a lot of MDC, and that's it. Their bonuses and experience levels are low, and they have no special abilities or immunities. I think they might be vulnerable to mind control or suggestion just because they're saving throws aren't going to be worth much. Add in low IQ, and that's not a good mix.

yeah 80ft tall 180,000 MDC with regen abilites yeah that isnt going to put a dent in overlord forces more like the hundred handed be cleaning between their toes afterwards and i'm sure zeus could find some others to help the big guys out , then throw in archie mechnoids robots , that place would be a fun place to go on holiday

yea. take zillions of overloards. now give each of them a 5d6 MD dealing rifle per shot. they'll kill a few million hundred handed per melee round. and sinse the hundrend handed have the tacticle sense of a five year old child playing aginst a chess grandmaster, they'll going to walk helplessly into a shooting gallery. and that's assuming the splurgorth play nice.

a single carpet of adhesion and a hundred handed is a sitting duck.

thats if Zuesster plays nice too

[Nekira Sudacne]

no zeus could really mess up atlantis bad , just release the Hundred handed there and make a deal with atlas to lead them in exchange for his freedom

not really. the Hundred Handed are vunerable to mass-attacks. they couldn't even put a dent in the Overlords population.

I would have to agree. The canon description of the Hundred Handed is not encouraging. They have a lot of MDC, and that's it. Their bonuses and experience levels are low, and they have no special abilities or immunities. I think they might be vulnerable to mind control or suggestion just because they're saving throws aren't going to be worth much. Add in low IQ, and that's not a good mix.

yeah 80ft tall 180,000 MDC with regen abilites yeah that isnt going to put a dent in overlord forces more like the hundred handed be cleaning between their toes afterwards and i'm sure zeus could find some others to help the big guys out , then throw in archie mechnoids robots , that place would be a fun place to go on holiday

yea. take zillions of overloards. now give each of them a 5d6 MD dealing rifle per shot. they'll kill a few million hundred handed per melee round. and sinse the hundrend handed have the tacticle sense of a five year old child playing aginst a chess grandmaster, they'll going to walk helplessly into a shooting gallery. and that's assuming the splurgorth play nice.

a single carpet of adhesion and a hundred handed is a sitting duck.

thats if Zuesster plays nice too

pretty much. I ain't saying It'll be a cakewalk for splynny. but I am saying zeus dosn't have a realistic change. splyncryth has too many minions that he can move around far too quickly

[Mech-Viper Prime]

no zeus could really mess up atlantis bad , just release the Hundred handed there and make a deal with atlas to lead them in exchange for his freedom

not really. the Hundred Handed are vunerable to mass-attacks. they couldn't even put a dent in the Overlords population.

I would have to agree. The canon description of the Hundred Handed is not encouraging. They have a lot of MDC, and that's it. Their bonuses and experience levels are low, and they have no special abilities or immunities. I think they might be vulnerable to mind control or suggestion just because they're saving throws aren't going to be worth much. Add in low IQ, and that's not a good mix.

yeah 80ft tall 180,000 MDC with regen abilites yeah that isnt going to put a dent in overlord forces more like the hundred handed be cleaning between their toes afterwards and i'm sure zeus could find some others to help the big guys out , then throw in archie mechnoids robots , that place would be a fun place to go on holiday

yea. take zillions of overloards. now give each of them a 5d6 MD dealing rifle per shot. they'll kill a few million hundred handed per melee round. and sinse the hundrend handed have the tacticle sense of a five year old child playing aginst a chess grandmaster, they'll going to walk helplessly into a shooting gallery. and that's assuming the splurgorth play nice.

a single carpet of adhesion and a hundred handed is a sitting duck.

thats if Zuesster plays nice too

pretty much. I ain't saying It'll be a cakewalk for splynny. but I am saying zeus dosn't have a realistic change. splyncryth has too many minions that he can move around far too quickly

yup hivemind hundred hands would just mess up any tactics old ugly eye has , remember no one saying zues would attack by himself ,the Splugorths are not without thier enemies and zues willout allies

[Nekira Sudacne]

no zeus could really mess up atlantis bad , just release the Hundred handed there and make a deal with atlas to lead them in exchange for his freedom

not really. the Hundred Handed are vunerable to mass-attacks. they couldn't even put a dent in the Overlords population.

I would have to agree. The canon description of the Hundred Handed is not encouraging. They have a lot of MDC, and that's it. Their bonuses and experience levels are low, and they have no special abilities or immunities. I think they might be vulnerable to mind control or suggestion just because they're saving throws aren't going to be worth much. Add in low IQ, and that's not a good mix.

yeah 80ft tall 180,000 MDC with regen abilites yeah that isnt going to put a dent in overlord forces more like the hundred handed be cleaning between their toes afterwards and i'm sure zeus could find some others to help the big guys out , then throw in archie mechnoids robots , that place would be a fun place to go on holiday

yea. take zillions of overloards. now give each of them a 5d6 MD dealing rifle per shot. they'll kill a few million hundred handed per melee round. and sinse the hundrend handed have the tacticle sense of a five year old child playing aginst a chess grandmaster, they'll going to walk helplessly into a shooting gallery. and that's assuming the splurgorth play nice.

a single carpet of adhesion and a hundred handed is a sitting duck.

thats if Zuesster plays nice too

pretty much. I ain't saying It'll be a cakewalk for splynny. but I am saying zeus dosn't have a realistic change. splyncryth has too many minions that he can move around far too quickly

yup hivemind hundred hands would just mess up any tactics old ugly eye has , remember no one saying zues would attack by himself ,the Splugorths are not without thier enemies and zues willout allies

not really. a hivemind of stupid people is just a bunch of stupid people working togeather.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

no zeus could really mess up atlantis bad , just release the Hundred handed there and make a deal with atlas to lead them in exchange for his freedom

not really. the Hundred Handed are vunerable to mass-attacks. they couldn't even put a dent in the Overlords population.

I would have to agree. The canon description of the Hundred Handed is not encouraging. They have a lot of MDC, and that's it. Their bonuses and experience levels are low, and they have no special abilities or immunities. I think they might be vulnerable to mind control or suggestion just because they're saving throws aren't going to be worth much. Add in low IQ, and that's not a good mix.

yeah 80ft tall 180,000 MDC with regen abilites yeah that isnt going to put a dent in overlord forces more like the hundred handed be cleaning between their toes afterwards and i'm sure zeus could find some others to help the big guys out , then throw in archie mechnoids robots , that place would be a fun place to go on holiday

yea. take zillions of overloards. now give each of them a 5d6 MD dealing rifle per shot. they'll kill a few million hundred handed per melee round. and sinse the hundrend handed have the tacticle sense of a five year old child playing aginst a chess grandmaster, they'll going to walk helplessly into a shooting gallery. and that's assuming the splurgorth play nice.

a single carpet of adhesion and a hundred handed is a sitting duck.

thats if Zuesster plays nice too

pretty much. I ain't saying It'll be a cakewalk for splynny. but I am saying zeus dosn't have a realistic change. splyncryth has too many minions that he can move around far too quickly

yup hivemind hundred hands would just mess up any tactics old ugly eye has , remember no one saying zues would attack by himself ,the Splugorths are not without thier enemies and zues willout allies

not really. a hivemind of stupid people is just a bunch of stupid people working togeather.

depends on who is directing the stupid people

[Nikoli]

You should never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

[Nekira Sudacne]

You should never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

I don't. but you shouldn't understimate the power of intelligent people in about 100,000,000,000 times greater numbers.

[cornholioprime]

Assuming of course that those numbers are available - let's face it, if anyone were going to attack Atlantis for any reason, priority #1 in their planning would be to prevent dimensional travel in or out for the duration of the assault and cleanup - /how/ they might do that is another, and altogether more complicated question - but let's not forget about it.

Well, we are all apparently forgetting that Sploogie has enough forces at his Atlantis Garrison alone to conquer the Earth.

First pointed out in Rifts: Atlantis.

The Splugorth are also, apparently more than a match for any one Pantheon.

The Splugorth are on a "Peace Treaty" with the Egyptian Pantheon ("peace" as in they look the other way as long as their machinations don't affect the other's Sphere of Influence), and they laugh in the face of the Greek Pantheon -whose Gods simmer at the thought of having to skulk around the Splugorth.

First pointed out in Rifts: Pantheons of the Megaverse.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Assuming of course that those numbers are available - let's face it, if anyone were going to attack Atlantis for any reason, priority #1 in their planning would be to prevent dimensional travel in or out for the duration of the assault and cleanup - /how/ they might do that is another, and altogether more complicated question - but let's not forget about it.

Well, we are all apparently forgetting that Sploogie has enough forces at his Atlantis Garrison alone to conquer the Earth.

First pointed out in Rifts: Atlantis.

The Splugorth are also, apparently more than a match for any one Pantheon.

The Splugorth are on a "Peace Treaty" with the Egyptian Pantheon ("peace" as in they look the other way as long as their machinations don't affect the other's Sphere of Influence), and they laugh in the face of the Greek Pantheon -whose Gods simmer at the thought of having to skulk around the Splugorth.

First pointed out in Rifts: Pantheons of the Megaverse.

Lets not forget Thor severely wounded a splugorth without his stuff so its not numbers its about who you get to help

[Nekira Sudacne]

Assuming of course that those numbers are available - let's face it, if anyone were going to attack Atlantis for any reason, priority #1 in their planning would be to prevent dimensional travel in or out for the duration of the assault and cleanup - /how/ they might do that is another, and altogether more complicated question - but let's not forget about it.

Well, we are all apparently forgetting that Sploogie has enough forces at his Atlantis Garrison alone to conquer the Earth.

First pointed out in Rifts: Atlantis.

The Splugorth are also, apparently more than a match for any one Pantheon.

The Splugorth are on a "Peace Treaty" with the Egyptian Pantheon ("peace" as in they look the other way as long as their machinations don't affect the other's Sphere of Influence), and they laugh in the face of the Greek Pantheon -whose Gods simmer at the thought of having to skulk around the Splugorth.

First pointed out in Rifts: Pantheons of the Megaverse.

Lets not forget Thor severely wounded a splugorth without his stuff so its not numbers its about who you get to help

Thor also got some inside help remember, and was able to actually challange the splurgorth in one on one combat where nither of their minions could participate.

an invasion of atlantis would take more than that.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Assuming of course that those numbers are available - let's face it, if anyone were going to attack Atlantis for any reason, priority #1 in their planning would be to prevent dimensional travel in or out for the duration of the assault and cleanup - /how/ they might do that is another, and altogether more complicated question - but let's not forget about it.

Well, we are all apparently forgetting that Sploogie has enough forces at his Atlantis Garrison alone to conquer the Earth.

First pointed out in Rifts: Atlantis.

The Splugorth are also, apparently more than a match for any one Pantheon.

The Splugorth are on a "Peace Treaty" with the Egyptian Pantheon ("peace" as in they look the other way as long as their machinations don't affect the other's Sphere of Influence), and they laugh in the face of the Greek Pantheon -whose Gods simmer at the thought of having to skulk around the Splugorth.

First pointed out in Rifts: Pantheons of the Megaverse.

Lets not forget Thor severely wounded a splugorth without his stuff so its not numbers its about who you get to help

Thor also got some inside help remember, and was able to actually challange the splurgorth in one on one combat where nither of their minions could participate.

an invasion of atlantis would take more than that.

sadly that is people normally think around here, numbers win , not tactics

zues knows he cant take atlantis down as long as the have numbers but if you can control the battlefield you dont need numbers

[Nekira Sudacne]

Assuming of course that those numbers are available - let's face it, if anyone were going to attack Atlantis for any reason, priority #1 in their planning would be to prevent dimensional travel in or out for the duration of the assault and cleanup - /how/ they might do that is another, and altogether more complicated question - but let's not forget about it.

Well, we are all apparently forgetting that Sploogie has enough forces at his Atlantis Garrison alone to conquer the Earth.

First pointed out in Rifts: Atlantis.

The Splugorth are also, apparently more than a match for any one Pantheon.

The Splugorth are on a "Peace Treaty" with the Egyptian Pantheon ("peace" as in they look the other way as long as their machinations don't affect the other's Sphere of Influence), and they laugh in the face of the Greek Pantheon -whose Gods simmer at the thought of having to skulk around the Splugorth.

First pointed out in Rifts: Pantheons of the Megaverse.

Lets not forget Thor severely wounded a splugorth without his stuff so its not numbers its about who you get to help

Thor also got some inside help remember, and was able to actually challange the splurgorth in one on one combat where nither of their minions could participate.

an invasion of atlantis would take more than that.

sadly that is people normally think around here, numbers win , not tactics

zues knows he cant take atlantis down as long as the have numbers but if you can control the battlefield you dont need numbers

sure tactics win over numbers. problem is simple, Splyncryth is smarter than zeus. probablly older too.

and secondly, Splyncryth already controls the battlefeild. he controls all of atlantis. ultimatly if zeus wants to take it back, he has to take the fight to atlantis, fighting on Splyncryths terms. in short, the tactical advantage already goes to splynny.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Assuming of course that those numbers are available - let's face it, if anyone were going to attack Atlantis for any reason, priority #1 in their planning would be to prevent dimensional travel in or out for the duration of the assault and cleanup - /how/ they might do that is another, and altogether more complicated question - but let's not forget about it.

Well, we are all apparently forgetting that Sploogie has enough forces at his Atlantis Garrison alone to conquer the Earth.

First pointed out in Rifts: Atlantis.

The Splugorth are also, apparently more than a match for any one Pantheon.

The Splugorth are on a "Peace Treaty" with the Egyptian Pantheon ("peace" as in they look the other way as long as their machinations don't affect the other's Sphere of Influence), and they laugh in the face of the Greek Pantheon -whose Gods simmer at the thought of having to skulk around the Splugorth.

First pointed out in Rifts: Pantheons of the Megaverse.

Lets not forget Thor severely wounded a splugorth without his stuff so its not numbers its about who you get to help

Thor also got some inside help remember, and was able to actually challange the splurgorth in one on one combat where nither of their minions could participate.

an invasion of atlantis would take more than that.

sadly that is people normally think around here, numbers win , not tactics

zues knows he cant take atlantis down as long as the have numbers but if you can control the battlefield you dont need numbers

sure tactics win over numbers. problem is simple, Splyncryth is smarter than zeus. probablly older too.

and secondly, Splyncryth already controls the battlefeild. he controls all of atlantis. ultimatly if zeus wants to take it back, he has to take the fight to atlantis, fighting on Splyncryths terms. in short, the tactical advantage already goes to splynny.

true, but that easier change to

[Nekira Sudacne]

Assuming of course that those numbers are available - let's face it, if anyone were going to attack Atlantis for any reason, priority #1 in their planning would be to prevent dimensional travel in or out for the duration of the assault and cleanup - /how/ they might do that is another, and altogether more complicated question - but let's not forget about it.

Well, we are all apparently forgetting that Sploogie has enough forces at his Atlantis Garrison alone to conquer the Earth.

First pointed out in Rifts: Atlantis.

The Splugorth are also, apparently more than a match for any one Pantheon.

The Splugorth are on a "Peace Treaty" with the Egyptian Pantheon ("peace" as in they look the other way as long as their machinations don't affect the other's Sphere of Influence), and they laugh in the face of the Greek Pantheon -whose Gods simmer at the thought of having to skulk around the Splugorth.

First pointed out in Rifts: Pantheons of the Megaverse.

Lets not forget Thor severely wounded a splugorth without his stuff so its not numbers its about who you get to help

Thor also got some inside help remember, and was able to actually challange the splurgorth in one on one combat where nither of their minions could participate.

an invasion of atlantis would take more than that.

sadly that is people normally think around here, numbers win , not tactics

zues knows he cant take atlantis down as long as the have numbers but if you can control the battlefield you dont need numbers

sure tactics win over numbers. problem is simple, Splyncryth is smarter than zeus. probablly older too.

and secondly, Splyncryth already controls the battlefeild. he controls all of atlantis. ultimatly if zeus wants to take it back, he has to take the fight to atlantis, fighting on Splyncryths terms. in short, the tactical advantage already goes to splynny.

true, but that easier change to

your argument seems to be "Zues can figure it out"

Your faith is admrabile, my son

nevertheless, splyncryth is older, smarter, AND more experiance than zues in just about everything about this. not to mention Zeus really ain't that great at military tactics, he always left taht up to ares, and ares really isn't that brilliant of a tactician either. in short, your argument that the greeks can outsmart splyncryth is fairly small sinse the fact of hte matter is splyncryth is smarter and more experinced than any of the greek gods, with FAR more experiance in empire building (their empires last for ages and don't actually collapse)

I hate to say it, but the greeks are simply outclassed here, plain and simple. it's like saying a boy scout troup could "outsmart" a team of crack commandos. they can't really, they can just come up with the best stragay they can and hope they get lucky.