Besides the SoT books where was it mentioned that.........

[MADMANMIKE]

Where was it mentioned that Tolkien was starting to turn from the peacefull nation that it once was to the blood driven madmen that consort with demons and evil powers?

Was that just put in there to make it harder to choose which side was the real evil ones. Maybe to take away the sympathy factor for Tolkien's loss of the war?

If anyone knows any references that Tolkien was changing can you tell me where. If not let the speculations begin as to why it happened that way. Or any other observations.

Aegis

..It's a logical progression. Power corrupts.

-Mike >8]

[Dustin Fireblade]

..It's a logical progression. Power corrupts.
-Mike >8]

I disagree. It seems much more like PB was trying to destroy any sympathy for Tolkeen.

Ok, so why can't they say power corrupts as part of the story line then?

[Sureshot]

I don't think it was really mentioned. I maybe wrong but they way the story was going it's was just a matter of time. Large city of mages close by the Coalition it was a disaster waiting to happen. The CS stupidly antagonizing Tolkien and Tolkiene responding in kind it was just a matter of time. I was looking forward to a winner take all battle, I just don't like the way it was handled in the books.

[MADMANMIKE]

..It's a logical progression. Power corrupts.
-Mike >8]

I disagree. It seems much more like PB was trying to destroy any sympathy for Tolkeen.

...

..You disagree with logic? How's that working out for you?

-Mike >8]

[Dr. Doom III]

Desperation drives people to make stupid choices they normally wouldn’t make.

[Svartalf]

..It's a logical progression. Power corrupts.
-Mike >8]

I disagree. It seems much more like PB was trying to destroy any sympathy for Tolkeen.

...

..You disagree with logic? How's that working out for you?

-Mike >8]

Your logic is not at fault.

That PB was working along the same lines is open to question. If KS had decided to have Tolkeen lose from the start, destroying sympathy for them and doing propaganda things is just typical MO, or should I say SOP?

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Sounds about right to me. No, no hint of the demonic hordes was given in any official material. <Poof> Tolkeen is evil.

No information (at least not much, anyways) was really given on Tolkeen (before the books). So, for all we knew it could have been a kingdom teeming with suicidal maniacs.

[Vrykolas2k]

Tolkeen still lived. The one the CS destroyed as an illusion spell

[Vrykolas2k]

I agree with most of the posters here, there has been reference that Tolkeen was modeled after Lazlo and even Erin Tarn brought up that she had many friends in Tolkeen in Aftermath. But there hwas never reference that Tolkeen was inherantly evil. In Aftermath they make it look like the use of demons and the like were an act of desperation not malicious planning. I don't know, but I did feel the turn was a bit heavy handed. The average reader should come away from the SoT thinking less of the CS not that the CS was justified, whichis kind of how they leave it.

SR

The CS was B-A-D. As far as I'm concerned, though, if Tolkeen wanted to pull out all the stops, an attack on a CS city would have been the way to go. It was foolish to just sit and be under siege. Mobile armies always have the advantage.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

If someone[the CS, in this case], was about to totally destroy your way of life in an unprovoked attack, would you just sit back and use 'nice guy' methods of fighting back?

Yes.

Desperation is no excuse for the altering of one's morals.

[Athos]

Where was it mentioned that Tolkien was starting to turn from the peacefull nation that it once was to the blood driven madmen that consort with demons and evil powers?

I think it first started happening in Rifter 1

[Dr. Doom III]

I think it first started happening in Rifter 1

That story was unofficial fanfic.

[Zer0 Kay]

Where was it mentioned that Tolkien was starting to turn from the peacefull nation that it once was to the blood driven madmen that consort with demons and evil powers?

Was that just put in there to make it harder to choose which side was the real evil ones. Maybe to take away the sympathy factor for Tolkien's loss of the war?

If anyone knows any references that Tolkien was changing can you tell me where. If not let the speculations begin as to why it happened that way. Or any other observations.

Aegis

..It's a logical progression. Power corrupts.

-Mike >8]

So why isn't New Lazlo?

[Dr. Doom III]

So was Archie's boy "Argent Goodson", but he's now official, in the Aftermath sourcebook (IIRC).

But that didn't have a "This is totally unofficial. The war will go totally different." blurb in front of it.

[Dr. Doom III]

So why isn't New Lazlo?

Is New Lazlo under immediate threat of invasion?

[Dr. Doom III]

Well since Tolkeen was virtually undescribed everything about it has "poof" factor.

[MADMANMIKE]

So was Archie's boy "Argent Goodson", but he's now official, in the Aftermath sourcebook (IIRC).

..Actually, look at it again; it was listed as official material from the get go.

..Something to get reprinted in the revised Sourcebook 1?

-Mike >8]

[Dr. Doom III]

..Actually, look at it again; it was listed as official material from the get go.

..Something to get reprinted in the revised Sourcebook 1?

-Mike >8]

What revised Source Book one?

[MADMANMIKE]

..Actually, look at it again; it was listed as official material from the get go.

..Something to get reprinted in the revised Sourcebook 1?

-Mike >8]

What revised Source Book one?

..It's high time that book got a revamp. The type face was too large, the world information should be altered, and presented as a past timeline setting. They should do that with alot of the books, clean them up and pick a timeline position that is clearly defined in relation to other official events.

..But the Archie setup was good and should be reprinted...

-Mike >8]

[Skiles99]

I have to agree that KS basically just arbitrarily turned Tolkeen corrupt. Consider Plato's Edict of Planetary Distress in Rifts Sourcebook 2, The Mechanoids.
In his Edict, Plato mentions proposing an alliance to most of the major North American kingdoms. Tolkeen recieves a very specific mention in this. Here Plato states that Tolkeen refused the alliance with Lazlo...
for fear of making Lazlo a military target of the Coalition states.
He goes on to say that Tolkeen WILL fight at Lazlo's side should it come to pass that all sentient life is threatened. Page 8 for the exact quote.
Based on Erin Tarn's letters in Rifts Africa, we're led to believe the Mechanoids Invasion occurred prior to the appearance of the Four Horsemen. Probably between 101 and 102 P.A.
The next reference to Tolkeen I'm aware takes place in Rifts World Book 11, Coalition War Campaign, and here (page 12) Erin Tarn suggests, after viewing Prosek's declaration of war, that the leadership of Tolkeen is as manipulative, brutal, narrow-minded, etc. as the CS. A look at the Game Master's Guide's timline (and other sources) tells us the CS declared war on Tolkeen in 106 P.A.
So the powers that be at Palladium would have us believe that in four years, or possibly less, Tolkeen's attitude changed from that of a basically benevolent non-entity of a magic kingdom who did not wish to risk dragging it's neighbors into their war, to becoming a corrupt demon summoning kingdom willing to resort to any means and deal with any force to defeat the CS.
While I appreciate that a nation can undergo radical alterations in its point of view in a short period of time, this still seems a bit fast and a bit extreme to be believed, especially with no prior mention of a growing darkness at Tolkeen's heart anywhere.