Absorbing PPE

[Veknironth]

Well, on page 181 of the main book, it says that practitioners of magic can draw PPE from unknowing people. They can save against it, and the MoM can take 1d4 PPE. They can absorb from as many people at a time as they have levels of experience and within a 50 foot radius. OK, seems simple. But how long does it take to do this?

-Vek
"Also, which OCCs can do this? Can warlocks since they don't really study magic? What about Psi-Mystics?"

[kiralon]

I'd say it was a full round action to attempt, and my book says 10ft per lvl.

Wizard, Diabolist, Summoner and Alchemist.

[Veknironth]

Well, yes you are correct. It is 10ft radius per level. I have a 5th level wizard so that was my mistake.

-Vek
"1 round per sounds good to me. Tell my GM."

[ShadowLogan]

Drawing from a group of 10 or more WILLING subjects requires a Ritual to be performed, but you get 70% of their PPE (PF2E pg181). Given it is a Ritual, this means it would require atleast 10minutes (PF2E pg184, assuming equivalent to Level 7-10) to perform.

Now unwilling subjects only give up 1d4 PPE or no more than 50% of their total PPE (PF2E pg 181, which non-mages is typically 2d6 IINM per PF2E pg180).

AFAIK there is no time listed for sub-Level 7 Ritual/Invocations. However we know Spells Level 9+ require 15seconds/1-Melee-Round OR MORE to Cast, Level 8 and below can be cast 2x per 15second/1-melee-round period. This leads me to think you could only syphon PPE x2 per 15second period if we assume siphoning PPE is equal to a Level 7 spell (given it's ritual version is minimum of Level 7 with willing subjects).

As to who can use Absorb PPE, it is usually mentioned in the PPE description of the class (Warlock, Diabolist specifically mention they can't tap) and if it isn't likely means they can't (like the Priest OCCs).

[Grazzik]

The rules are also included in the Mysteries of Magic book, but are a bit different when it comes to unwilling subjects - can't draw from them.

MoM pg 24 specifically refers to "ritual leader/mage/clergy performing the ritual". So clergy can. I've always seen this ability as an innate magic user ability, so unless expressly prohibited in the OCC, it can be done by any mage.

[Veknironth]

Well, Grazzik is correct. MoM page 24 it says it takes one melee to draw from unwitting subjects.

-Vek
"So foolish of me to think that the FAQ and a Canon book would agree."

[Library Ogre]

Ok, let's go.

First of all, there's a difference between "unwitting" (i.e. does not know you are doing it) and "unwilling" (actively does not want you to). Unwitting people need to be more or less unaware that you're trying to; unwilling people is pretty much anyone who is opposed to you.

If a 5th level mage is sitting in a tavern, he can reach out up to 50' (in any direction) and gather PPE from 5 people. Everyone who fails their save contributes 1d4. Each attempt costs 1 melee action, and covers all 5 people. In a tavern, he can keep trying until he runs out of people; I'm on the fence about whether he can retry people. A mage in a crowded place can thus refill pretty quickly, just siphoning the "loose" PPE of people. However, I'd also note that the people drawn from cannot be other men of magic (and I'd include Psi-mystics and priests in this, myself)... people who have control of their PPE can't be pickpocketed for it.

If someone is actively willing to give you their PPE, they can give you 70%, or up to 50% from each of up to 10 participants with linked hands (more efficient if you're drawing from several people and have a time crunch).

If you get several people in a ritual, you can get 70% from every mundane, and up to 100% from every man of magic... they can control how much they give you.

I'd say this is in line with both PFRPG2.181 and MoM.24

[Marcethus]

Ok, let's go.

First of all, there's a difference between "unwitting" (i.e. does not know you are doing it) and "unwilling" (actively does not want you to). Unwitting people need to be more or less unaware that you're trying to; unwilling people is pretty much anyone who is opposed to you.

If a 5th level mage is sitting in a tavern, he can reach out up to 50' (in any direction) and gather PPE from 5 people. Everyone who fails their save contributes 1d4. Each attempt costs 1 melee action, and covers all 5 people. In a tavern, he can keep trying until he runs out of people; I'm on the fence about whether he can retry people. A mage in a crowded place can thus refill pretty quickly, just siphoning the "loose" PPE of people. However, I'd also note that the people drawn from cannot be other men of magic (and I'd include Psi-mystics and priests in this, myself)... people who have control of their PPE can't be pickpocketed for it.

If someone is actively willing to give you their PPE, they can give you 70%, or up to 50% from each of up to 10 participants with linked hands (more efficient if you're drawing from several people and have a time crunch).

If you get several people in a ritual, you can get 70% from every mundane, and up to 100% from every man of magic... they can control how much they give you.

I'd say this is in line with both PFRPG2.181 and MoM.24

I agree and this is how I would and have called it. I also do not allow retries.

[Plane]

They can absorb from as many people at a time as they have levels of experience and within a 50 foot radius.

Well, yes you are correct. It is 10ft radius per level. I have a 5th level wizard so that was my mistake.

Takes me back to when this rule was first introduced in BTS1, page 94 allowed drawing PPE from the unaware (or unwilling via blood sacrifice) from a fixed 60ft, and could draw on 3 per level. There was an extra 10ft/level to the reach if it was willing participants. The three people per level was also doubled it to 6/level humans or 12/level if you had MA22+

Rifts lowered this to 2 people per level and HU2 lowered it further to 1 person per level, which PF2 maintained.

Back then it was limited to 2D6 PPE per person though, which got changed to half their PPE in Rifts and 1D4 in HU2 and then PF2. The "50% PPE" aspect was only retained in HU2/PU2 as the maximum you could take, rather than being both the instantaneous and maximum.

One of the more interesting limits w/ consensual PPE donations is how it's 70% for an individual but "50% simultaneously" by hand-linking mesmerism. This is particularly odd for the whole "limit of ten" thing, does that mean an 11th level mage can't draw on 1D4 from eleven people, or is the limit of 10 just for the big half-percentage bulk donations?

MoM page 24 it says it takes one melee to draw from unwitting subjects.

I'm seeing "it requires one melee attack/action to focus on the person or people" so it's a melee action not a melee round.

Prior to Heart of Magic in 2007, I don't think the usage-time was ever explicitly listed, but I had always assumed it took a melee action.