On Using Horror Factor

[desrocfc]

The Bazaar #44: Using Horror Factor. After reading some posts here in the forums and in other online resources (Facebook, Discord) about the use of Horror Factor, specifically how repeated exposure should somehow allow the PC a 'gained invulnerability' to HF check, I decided to look into the idea.

This was an article that functionally near wrote itself; check out the anecdotes in the article and you’ll understand, LOL. As far as the argument for a ‘gained invulnerability’ to the requirement of a check against HF, I firmly believe the opposite. Doing a bit of a deep-dive into the elements of HF, I suggest it should be more impactful. I also present some suggested penalties I would add to the current rules in order to make the Players more cognizant of the impact of fear in the game. Equally applicable across the PB Megaverse (BtS in particular), Rifts is a game that really supports the macabre factor. Why not leverage that?

Link to the full article: https://www.scholarlyadventures.com/pos ... ror-factor

How do you use HF? What do your Players think about the ‘gained invulnerability’ argument?

[Grazzik]

Generally, it's a no from me to "gained invulnerability" for HF. It is an essential tool for a GM to tell a story and remind players that they aren't puppeteers of emotionless avatars, that there are consequences to stepping outside one's front door even for the highly experienced adventurer. Take it away and it leaves the expression of fear in the hands of the player to roleplay at THEIR convenience. However, though it should be a GM call on when and how to use HF, use it too often and in a way not driving the story forward and players may lose respect for their own scaredy-cat PCs and may resent the GM for being arbitrary. Don't use it and the game loses an element of surprise.

I like how the article suggests that prolonged fear evolves into a neurosis of some kind for longer campaigns. Thinking of Dead Reign, after a couple years in a zombie world, the sight of shambling zombies walking towards you may not have an immediate HF for a PC if they built up bonuses to save (not immunity) from experience, but there would definitely be some sort of pathology at work as a result of constant exposure. This would mean a save vs insanity, rather than vs HF, which is likely to have graver consequences for the PC. Unless a ME attribute challenge has been house ruled for the game, I'd suggest sticking with a save vs insanity roll. I typically reserve use of ME rolls for more of the immediate surprise or perseverance elements, rather than horror, like reacting to winning a contest, doing repetitive tasks for an extended period of time, stepping out of a Rift onto a new world and finding..., or watching all the extended LOTR movies back to back for the tenth time. However, for shorter adventures or monsters of the week in Rifts, HF seems to work as is to trigger the horror response.

Something to also consider is the flip side - the awe factor. It can be just as debilitating and dangerous. This is more than the intimidate or charm rolls, but something much more impactful and could also result in some sort of mental health issues over time. People could lose rational sense of themselves or develop an inferiority complex by basking in another's greatness too long, for example.

One last thing is how PCs develop their own HF. WB14 does this for a few OCCs and HoH has rules on gaining a HF that scares demons. I've incorporated HF into quickdraw showdowns against multiple targets to account for a single gunslinger mowing down 3 or 4 opponents before they get off a shot. Sometimes pure initiative isn't enough - using HF ahead of drawing a weapon can swing the odds very much in favor of the shooter if their opponents have lost their first action and initiative. Problem is gunslingers generally don't live long enough to lose HF rolls twice . However, the difference with this HF is that the PC projects it and players, not just the GM, should have a say on when it could apply. By giving players agency over their own projected HF if they have one, this can help offset any heavy-handed use of HF by the GM for NPCs and scary situations.

[Prysus]

As far as the argument for a ‘gained invulnerability’ to the requirement of a check against HF, I firmly believe the opposite. Doing a bit of a deep-dive into the elements of HF, I suggest it should be more impactful. I also present some suggested penalties I would add to the current rules in order to make the Players more cognizant of the impact of fear in the game.
[snip]
How do you use HF? What do your Players think about the ‘gained invulnerability’ argument?

Greetings and Salutations. I'll start by saying I didn't read your full article, but I'd read a few paragraphs, skip a few, and found you kept more or less the same concept. I read slowly, and while I didn't mind spending 10 or 15 minutes going through it, I didn't have an hour. So, if I did miss something, then I apologize.

Your argument seems based on fear and a concept of evil, which in itself isn't a bad place to start on a topic of horror. Your research probably isn't even bad if we think about real world effects of fear. However, the article also feels like you had a pre-conceived notion and then didn't look into it enough to find anything that would contradict your viewpoint. What do I mean by this? Your viewpoint has little to do with the Palladium Books rules. Now, I'm not saying the rules aren't meant to reflect real life, just that what you wrote does NOT reflect Horror Factor.

Example 1: Big Bore series of weapons. These all have a Horror Factor. These are non-magical, technological weapons. You can be in full EBA armor, and if I point one at you, you have to make a Horror Factor check. Meanwhile, you can be wearing nothing at all and I point a rocket launcher at your face (or any M.D. weapon that will vaporize you instantly) and nothing. You're fine, because a nuclear missile isn't as scary as a gun that fires grenades. By your stance, Big Bore Guns are, by their very nature, pure evil. But I see no reason to think an item without sentience is the epitome of evil.

Example 2: I'm a Human who marries a Wolfen. I love my wife very much. Two human bandits attack us, and ... that means combat starts. My wife is a pacifist and will only defend herself but ... I have to make a Horror Factor check against HER! Not the two bandits trying to kill me. But my wife, simply because she's a Wolfen, and that means she has a Horror Factor. I don't have to worry about any attacks from her, but I still lose initiative and an attack if I fail. Your logic says my fear of her will only grow more and more. No amount of kindness, no amount of love, no amount of not of her never hurting a soul can ever change that. She's not human, and therefore she deserves to be feared.

Example 3: Two Titans get into a fight with each other. You know, Titans, basically the giants that otherwise look like really beautiful humans with over 70% of their population being of a good alignment (and other 20% only being Unprincipled)? Both Titans need to make a Horror Factor check simply because the other is a Titan, and they have inherent Horror Factors. By your stance, since you can never get use to a Horror Factor, then it will only become more and more debilitating over time. Two human settlements go to war, and everything is fine. Two Wolfen settlements go to War, and there are so many Horror Factor checks involved that it's ridiculous.

In my opinion: Example 1 just shows poor use of Horror Factor in general, Example 2 is fairly racist when you give it any thought, and Example 3 tells us that any race with a Horror Factor can basically never form communities and would probably start dying off.

Are these examples absurd? Sure, but that's the Palladium rules. There are no exceptions put into play. Combat starts, and if there is a Horror Factor present you must make a Save vs. Horror Factor (and a LOT of mortal races have a Horror Factor simply for not looking human). If Horror Factor were used sparingly and with thought, I'd be more inclined to agree with your stance. But as Palladium has used Horror Factor, there needs to be some level of immunity. Note: My read of your article was more "You shouldn't have an immunity to Horror Factor, because I don't play Horror Factor the way it's written and apply all kinds of invulnerability!" But I could be mistaken.

This was my attempt at trying to give some sense to the existing rules: http://www.prysus.com/horror_factor_expanded.htm

Keep in mind, this is my take as the G.M. and a person who likes to build settings, not a player. My solution may not be perfect, and perhaps there are flaws in it as well. Anyways, hope some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Grazzik]

I'd agree that the article started off with a perspective on evil framed by a limited reference to the first few lines of RUE pg 367. However, there was some reference to situational horror part way through. I would suggest that the Big Bore example, requiring the gun be directed in a specific spatial relation to the HF victim, would clearly fall within the "situation" category of HF. The same could be said in which multiple beings with HF interact in a given situation, such as a battlefield charge. Indeed, situations can have lasting effects, as the horrors of war, for example, are specifically addressed in WB11 pg 58 where, following an encounter on the battlefield, a save may be rolled to determine what level of trauma is experienced. Perhaps this situational horror could be further explored in a future article.

The given wolfen example is an interesting one. On the point of Wolfen (or any other mortal non-supernatural being with a HF in their stats), RAW in RUE pg 367 says "all monsters and supernatural creatures" have HF and when a "human/mortal" encounters them, a d20 must be rolled as a save. So, yes, HF is a required roll on the face of it. However, a Wolfen is neither a "monster" nor a "supernatural creature". Instead, the Wolfen is a "mortal" and presumably the unfortunate victim were a HF roll required. On pg 277, "D-bee" is defined as any bi-pedal humanoid with human-like intelligence from another world. Wolfen are bi-pedal humanoids with human-like intelligence from another world. As such, Wolfen are D-bees and pg 277 also states that D-bees are "alien people (not monsters)". Therefore, the Wolfen wife is not a monster and as such the HF roll is not required. Though highly recommended when perturbed by folks calling her a monster.

With regard to no exceptions put into play, on RUE pg 367 GMs are given the express authority to assign a HF to a situation. Examples of situations are listed, but are not exhaustive as the list ends in "etc.". One example refers to cultists, who themselves may have a HF when decked out in their cultish regalia and paraphernalia. Therefore, I'd put forward the notion that any situation in which a PC may find themselves may have a reasonable HF assigned by the GM regardless of the HF of individual elements of said situation. As such, in the highly unlikely event that a wolfen finds themselves wedded to a Harpie, the GM may rule that the situation merits nothing more than a HF of 0. Therefore, while the wolfen may secretly fear their spouse, the situation they find themselves in may indeed be the height of bliss. An interesting psychological conundrum to play out. A roll against the wolfen's ME or save vs insanity may be necessitated to ascertain whether their composure is maintained in the course of their marital exchanges.

Needless to say, the RAW for HF are a little rough around the edges and open to a myriad of interpretations. Best not taken too literally.

[Prysus]

I would suggest that the Big Bore example, requiring the gun be directed in a specific spatial relation to the HF victim, would clearly fall within the "situation" category of HF.

Greetings and Salutations. Yes, it has a situational relation, but it's still fairly nonsensical. A Big Bore is a useful weapon, but far from the most powerful weapon to ever be created. Maybe the first few times encountered, when you don't really know what it can do, or if it really is the most powerful item you've ever faced, sure. But if you know what it does, and you've faced equally (or even more so) powerful weapons before, there's no reason that the Big Bore should retain the Horror Factor. Having the Big Bore retain the Horror Factor (for all time, because your stance is you can't ever become invulnerable to a Horror Factor) while other more powerful items don't have one is ... well, as I said, nonsense.

RAW in RUE pg 367 says "all monsters and supernatural creatures" have HF and when a "human/mortal" encounters them, a d20 must be rolled as a save. So, yes, HF is a required roll on the face of it. However, a Wolfen is neither a "monster" nor a "supernatural creature".

First, the quote you reference says "all monsters and supernatural creatures" and not ONLY monsters and supernatural creatures. This is an inclusive statement (includes those listed), not an exclusive one (doesn't exclude other sources). Otherwise, a Big Bore couldn't have a Horror Factor either, and we know that it does. Additionally, per Palladium, the Wolfen are a "Monster Race." Palladium Fantasy Second Edition page 288 (bottom of the first column) has a list of "Monster Races" and Wolfen are included. Now, we are in the Rifts forum, but I honestly don't feel like hunting through all my Rifts book for Wolfen characters to see how many times Palladium calls them monsters (Palladium Fantasy is my setting of choice, and the one I know best and can pull up references with relative ease). Keep in mind though, Horror Factor is also in Palladium Fantasy, and Wolfen are clearly labeled as Monsters there. Heck, most of the playable races in the Rifts Conversion Book (converted from Palladium Fantasy at least) are from the "Monsters & Animals" books. Note: If you don't have the book, "Animals" have their own section, and the playable races are not with the animals. Wolfen are, again, explicitly in the "Monster" section.

So your stance here isn't supported by the rules of Horror Factor (that does not prohibit D-Bees from having a Horror Factor, nor does it suggest that they would use some other non-listed Horror Factor rules), nor by Palladium which makes a habit of calling Wolfen "monsters." This honestly comes off as a bad faith argument.

As such, in the highly unlikely event that a wolfen finds themselves wedded to a Harpie, the GM may rule that the situation merits nothing more than a HF of 0.

So they'd be immune/invulnerable to the Horror Factor. Great! I agree. Note: I know you didn't use those exact words, but it comes down to the exact same thing.

Needless to say, the RAW for HF are a little rough around the edges and open to a myriad of interpretations. Best not taken too literally.

RAW are generally rough around the edges, and Horror Factor is no exception. This is effectively my point. The article, to me, has one of those feels of when people talk about how they run their games without any house rules and only use the rules in the book, except anyone who knows the rules can point out countless house rules they're using (even if they haven't realized it).

Now, I'm not saying that the Paratrooper ability to be Impervious to Horror Factor is a good idea. That's silly in the other direction. But Palladium uses Horror Factor on things that are often just new and different, or has a weird appearance. New things can be scary, sure, but we can get used to them. Things that look weird don't look so weird after you've been around it a while. Without that ability we'd never advanced as a society. People use to think flying was unnatural and that if you go too fast in a convertible your skin would melt off (or something like that). These are the kind of things (basically, any mortal Horror Factor) that you should get used to and would no longer be scary. You're not invulnerable to all Horror Factor, but you'd be invulnerable/immune to that particular Horror Factor.

I don't know what specific posts the OP may have been referring to that spurred the article. Maybe it was one of those talking about the Paratrooper ability and some people defending it, but I've also seen topics addressing Horror Factor as I am now, that after a point you'd get use to some things. Since the OP addressed Horror Factor as a whole topic, so am I. Blanket statements with the vaguest of context will often get responses out of the scope of the original intent (maybe), but well within the scope of what's actually been said. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Killer Cyborg]

Horror Factor originated as a supernatural effect of evil, listed and described in the Psionics section.
This is when it worked best.

BUT Palladium over time just started absurdly lumping in anything and everything some author or another thought should be Scarey, like the Big Bore weapons.
Keep in mind that staring down a Boom Gun or the cannon of a star cruiser has a HF of Zero, but fancy MD shotguns out West DO have a HF.
Keep in mind that HF doesn’t have any relation to actual danger, so and Adult Dragon or a god still technically has to roll a HF check to not be pants-wettingly skeered of the 2d4 MD or whatever the Big Bore small arms dish out.

Anybody wishing to address or fix HF will need to be prepared to address that kind of mixed up nonsense, and good luck to you,

[Grazzik]

Amen, KC.

Any time someone shoves a gun, any gun, in someone's face, I'm sure a HF roll is called for. Big Bore HF was a (IMO mistaken) call out by the author to make the guns seem more important to fit a Western setting. Nothing stops a GM slapping a HF on all guns in faces if they want. However, if the person belonging to said face were so experienced as to not flinch, it is likely that they rolled, added the bonuses and didn't crap their pants. I agree bonuses vs HF should improve with levels. Call it immunity if you want, but that word has an undertone of certitude ("auto-pass" is the word in the article) when all that is needed is roll a die and do a bit of math. Maybe you could have a min/max PC with +10 vs HF, but even then as a GM I'd probably consider whether the situation warranted a HF penalty to give a sliver of a chance for fear to creep in.

As a megaversal player myself, Prysus, I respect your position wrt PFRPG and generally agree with it. In Rifts, though, the D-Bee definition that sets Wolfen as an alien people is from RUE, which some might argue overrides content of the older CB1r book. Even then, Wolfen are not in the Monster Section of CB1r, they are in the Humanoid Races section. I guess this shift of various species from a "monster race" to a "alien people" is a construct of the Rifts game that differs from PFRPG. I'd hazard to say it is because Rifts Earth is set up to be more of a giant melting pot of species of all persuasions and motivations with less emphasis on traditional good vs bad along species lines. That said, the colloquial use of "monster" would definitely apply in a variety of contexts, whether from the perspective of CS citizens, opponents on the battlefield, or wilderness villages ravaged by a Wolfen Horde from a Rift.

I never said that HF was prohibited for D-Bees, only that the argument could be made that it wasn't required by the text. As a GM I would certainly apply it, but only because it makes common sense to do so. However, as I've pointed out, the text as written in RUE is limited/faulty and can be rule lawyered six ways from Sunday to varying degree.

Good grief! Agreed re Paratrooper!

Well, at the very least, the article got a few comments out of us.

[glitterboy2098]

i would point out that WB11 CWC, page 58, has some additional HF rules, mostly about battlefierld horrors, like being caught in an artillery barrage, the middle of a major gunbattle, seeing your buddies vaporized by MD weaponry, intense melee combat, etc. they're labelled as "shell-shock rules", a term which is not particularly up to date (it's what certain types of PTSD used to be called) but they do a fair job of representing the psychological horrors of war. basically, it is using the HF mechanic to represent how well people handle trauma.

people who fail their HF roll for these traumas are suggested to have a panic attack and become unresponsive in some way. it is explicitly left up the the GM and player to determine exactly what happens from an RP standpoint, but the character loses their attacks... a successful HF roll means the person doesn't panic but has some minor penalties to their number of attacks and init. basically there is no 'good' result to being involved in battle trauma. characters who failed their roll can try to escape their panic by rolling again in the next melee round.

honestly this does a decent job of handling battlefield mental trauma, going by what i know of IRL examples from my history studies.

[Soldier of Od]

Just a quick clarification regarding Wolfen - regardless of whether they may or may not be described as monsters, D-Bees, or whatever, Wolfen are explicitly stated to have a Horror Factor of 12 (Rifts Conversion book 1, page 86).

[desrocfc]

Example 1: Big Bore Weapons: Honestly I thought that one of the more ridiculous things to add. And yet, nothing for the Boom Gun?

Example 2: You're not fighting your Wolven wife, the bandits attacking you and she need to check vs HF (as applicable)

Example 3: Part of discussion below, but granted.

Lots of good points regarding the expanded elements of Horror Factor. The premise of the article is that HF is a pervasive aspect of the game, that does not go away simply through repeated exposure to the same source of trauma/shock causing the HF check - e.g. "We've been through over a dozen encounters with the Xiticix, why should my PC keep having to roll HF?" Psychology would actually prove the point it should be more impactful that the rules indicate. As funny as they are to relate, I speak from a position of some experience - those anecdotes are but a few examples.

For those that did not read the article in full, there are three aspects of HF presented:

- Revulsion (of appearance/too bizaare/gore)
- Aura of Evil (the unspoken threat/fear response)
- Jump Scare (sudden and visceral visual or audible movement)

There are certainly other aspects to HF to explore:

- Does a being with HF 16 need to check against a being with HF 12? I would suggest yes, but likely already have bonuses.
- Staring down the barrel of a rifle. Not something I recommend anyone.
- Acute shock from life threatening scenarios. I've had a few of these as well (my wife and kids marvel how I ever made it this far).
- Battle Shock. Ambushers get a free attack against unsuspecting targets, but somehow they just simply roll Initiative after?

I'd certainly be a proponent for more injects of Horror Factor under more than the guide of a psychological shock from the GM's "mc-nasty" of the day. But there is also the element of mental preparation to counter this. You see a squad of Xiticix flying your way, from out of range. I'd argue against the need for HF checks as PCs mentally prepare themselves for the battle - they have the time. Unlike crawling through a sewer and they pop out from around the corner.

The Insanity rules already present a fairly cohesive start point for individual trauma and how this alone may trigger an Insanity check. Nobody likes the idea of playing a PC with a handicap the GM can simply switch on at any time, yet such is life. Need it be so concretely defined in a game played for enjoyment? One could argue not, but I think it largely rests on the shoulders of the GM to manage, and the maturity of the people around the table.

[Blackwater Sniper]

I used to work with a guy who was a bit.... jumpy. You could walk up to him while he was concentrating on something, say his name or even "HI" and he would nearly jump out of his skin. It's similar to those who are scared by walking around a corner or opening a door and unexpectedly finding someone face-to-face. There are those people whose 'fight or flight' response is ratcheted up to '11.'

A Horror Factor is not only how you react to instantaneous situations, but in the knowledge of being in the presence of power differential.

Your average worker will react differently to fellow coworkers than the CEO of their company, or a known celebrity, or national political figure. Your adrenal glands open, you begin to sweat, your heart is racing, and you hope to God you don't say something that will end up on YouTube.

You could even apply a Horror Factor roll for simple tasks like 'public speaking,' deactivating a bomb without proper training, or trying to evade a road rage incident; how does your mind react to being in unconventional situations.

Supernatural monsters, or even something you 'think' is a supernatural monster, can make you a blubbering mess without it even raising a hand or speaking a word merely by what you think it can do to you. A lone Level One Cyber-Knight can't do much against a Coalition Infantry Squad and may freeze (failing a HF roll) where a Level 10 Cyber-Knight is already calculating who to take out first, angles of attack, and escape routes, if necessary, all while running hell-bent into the fray.