New Books Upgrading Old Books
Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:49 am
The recent Palladium Books Update said that Yin-Sloth Jungle and Island at the Edge of the World are finally being upgraded to 2nd Edition. It's about time.
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Reagren Wright wrote:April 2023 release date for Yin Sloth.
Reagren Wright wrote:Original manuscripts for both updated books were turned in last year. This revised already published material (20+ years old) so both books are 95%
already written with the original material. All Kevin has to do is approve the new stuff added to it and if he decides to make a few changes. So this is a
book that can be released in April maybe May if there is a printer issue. The point is to release the two books for the 40th anniversary this year. Island at
the Edge of the World should be even easier to get done because there are no O.C.C.s, skills, and numerous bits of new material added.
Kendragon333 wrote:People not buying the books is why we don't get more for the setting. We need to support the company if we want more books, not whine if they don't get them out in what we consider a reasonable time.
Warshield73 wrote:Reagren Wright wrote:Original manuscripts for both updated books were turned in last year. This revised already published material (20+ years old) so both books are 95%
already written with the original material. All Kevin has to do is approve the new stuff added to it and if he decides to make a few changes. So this is a
book that can be released in April maybe May if there is a printer issue. The point is to release the two books for the 40th anniversary this year. Island at
the Edge of the World should be even easier to get done because there are no O.C.C.s, skills, and numerous bits of new material added.
Notice, I didn't say they wouldn't get them out this year, I just said I wouldn't be putting any money on it and I don't think, given PBs history, you can blame people for being skeptical.
For me, even though I don't play fantasy I can't wait for Island at the Edge of the World as that is my favorite Fantasy book and probably in my top 5 Palladium books of all time. One thing that I think might hold it up is that crystal magic might be kind of tricky to revise.
rogerd1 wrote:Kendragon333 wrote:People not buying the books is why we don't get more for the setting. We need to support the company if we want more books, not whine if they don't get them out in what we consider a reasonable time.
Then it needs to update its rules to draw in the younger players.
Kendragon333 wrote:Updating the rules would require someone with an idea of how to do so. I don't think constantly updating the books the way D&D is constantly updated is an option.
rogerd1 wrote:Kendragon333 wrote:Updating the rules would require someone with an idea of how to do so. I don't think constantly updating the books the way D&D is constantly updated is an option.
Why would it not be possible or an option to update like DnD?
Library Ogre wrote:To an extent, Palladium doesn't have the manpower to do so; smaller shops, with less turnover, don't revise their rules nearly as often; you're more likely to get slight changes than a full revision.
Library Ogre wrote:Palladium also has pursued as "all our stuff is compatible with all our other stuff" angle, which isn't QUITE true (1e v. 2e), but it's mostly true.
Library Ogre wrote:A big revision of the rules would break this, and it might draw in more people, but it also might alienate their core customers, who are pretty much all they have right now.
rogerd1 wrote:Library Ogre wrote:Palladium also has pursued as "all our stuff is compatible with all our other stuff" angle, which isn't QUITE true (1e v. 2e), but it's mostly true.
But it isn't balanced in the slightest. And rules revisions would help sort out things like MDC rules, which are a bit knick-knacked right now. Plus having to crack open multiple books to search for a particular rule. It should be in one place.
Library Ogre wrote:Oh, no, not in the least. I'm pretty sure Palladium, or at least Palladium Fans, have pointed to the lack of balance as a virtue, which I don't entirely agree with.
I'm not defending Palladium on this... just looking at what seems to be the facts associated with it.
rogerd1 wrote:Library Ogre wrote:To an extent, Palladium doesn't have the manpower to do so; smaller shops, with less turnover, don't revise their rules nearly as often; you're more likely to get slight changes than a full revision.
If you have one basic book, and a supers book, like Savage Worlds; any settings on top of that are simply then updated to any rules changes.Library Ogre wrote:Palladium also has pursued as "all our stuff is compatible with all our other stuff" angle, which isn't QUITE true (1e v. 2e), but it's mostly true.
But it isn't balanced in the slightest. And rules revisions would help sort out things like MDC rules, which are a bit knick-knacked right now. Plus having to crack open multiple books to search for a particular rule. It should be in one place.
Library Ogre wrote:A big revision of the rules would break this, and it might draw in more people, but it also might alienate their core customers, who are pretty much all they have right now.
Because of this, the system, and company - as has been said in other threads is slowly bleeding out.
We know this is true just looking at their release schedule, and some of the hideous delays.
It either needs to change its MO, or die.
rogerd1 wrote:Library Ogre wrote:Oh, no, not in the least. I'm pretty sure Palladium, or at least Palladium Fans, have pointed to the lack of balance as a virtue, which I don't entirely agree with.
I'm not defending Palladium on this... just looking at what seems to be the facts associated with it.
It is just laziness on behalf of Palladium to sort this out, and this also goes with needing new rules to create balance, or some form of toolbox to make the most out of it.
Sambot wrote:If other books have additional rules then the rules aren't all in one book, so you'd still be flipping multiple books. And if all the rules were in one book, you'd have a massive book.
Sambot wrote:On the other hand I constantly read about fans abandoning games that continually change their rules. Palladium hasn't really changed too much and I think that's an advantage.
Sambot wrote:The older books do work with the new ones. Sure, there's differences but they do work. We can play any 1E Character right along side any 2E Character. If Palladium had changed their rules completely, then we couldn't do that. These books would only be good with Palladium 1E, so players with Palladium 2E couldn't use them. Instead, they are compatible so 2E players can still use them.
Sambot wrote:As for the release schedule, I think that has more to do with Kevin having to personally go over every little thing a writer submits, in addition to his own writing and overseeing the day to day operations of the company. That is going to drastically slow production.
Sambot wrote:I think it's Keven's need to control.
Sambot wrote:I don't think it's laziness
Sambot wrote:Because of that need, he wears too many hat and that slows production. I wish he didn't feel he had to personally oversee everything but I can understand why he feels that way.
Sambot wrote:Define balance and tell me why one game must be "balanced" against another? Then tell me how they aren't balanced.
Sambot wrote:Should we make War Galleys MDC because vehicles in Rifts are MDC? Should we make all weapons from Rifts that come into Palladium SDC or should we keep them MDC as long as the ammo hold out? Isn't all that what a conversion book is for?
rogerd1 wrote:DnD 5e. It has changed rules five times, and at this point is the biggest player on the market!
So this is just not right.
rogerd1 wrote:Because of this, the system, and company - as has been said in other threads is slowly bleeding out.
We know this is true just looking at their release schedule, and some of the hideous delays.
It either needs to change its MO, or die.
rogerd1 wrote:Sambot wrote:If other books have additional rules then the rules aren't all in one book, so you'd still be flipping multiple books. And if all the rules were in one book, you'd have a massive book.
That's the point, they should be in one book.
Sambot wrote:On the other hand I constantly read about fans abandoning games that continually change their rules. Palladium hasn't really changed too much and I think that's an advantage.
DnD 5e. It has changed rules five times, and at this point is the biggest player on the market!
So this is just not right.
Sambot wrote:The older books do work with the new ones. Sure, there's differences but they do work. We can play any 1E Character right along side any 2E Character. If Palladium had changed their rules completely, then we couldn't do that. These books would only be good with Palladium 1E, so players with Palladium 2E couldn't use them. Instead, they are compatible so 2E players can still use them.
And it requires work, and it shouldn't.
So yeah, it is laziness.
Sambot wrote:As for the release schedule, I think that has more to do with Kevin having to personally go over every little thing a writer submits, in addition to his own writing and overseeing the day to day operations of the company. That is going to drastically slow production.Sambot wrote:I think it's Keven's need to control.
There is a word for this, micromanaging.
As that is what he is doing, and that is a problem, especially as a lot of re-writes, or stuff he has overseen is massively unbalanced.
Sambot wrote:I don't think it's laziness
Yes it is. Otherwise please explain why we still have rules with copy pasta stuff in different fonts.
It is laziness.
Sambot wrote:Because of that need, he wears too many hat and that slows production. I wish he didn't feel he had to personally oversee everything but I can understand why he feels that way.
Then he needs to change his tactic, as Palladium used to produce multiple books a year back in the day. Now barely one, so that is extremely arguable.
Sambot wrote:Define balance and tell me why one game must be "balanced" against another? Then tell me how they aren't balanced.
Weapons across different books that are similar, it has been awhile since I flicked through equipment at the time, have wildly different MDC ratings.
Sambot wrote:Should we make War Galleys MDC because vehicles in Rifts are MDC? Should we make all weapons from Rifts that come into Palladium SDC or should we keep them MDC as long as the ammo hold out? Isn't all that what a conversion book is for?
If they are MDC they should stay MDC, unless magically powered.
The laws of physics haven't changed.
Agreed. Palladium does not have a large staff. That is one reason it takes so long or the books to come out. The other reason is that Kevin insists on editing and adding to all the books himself, which takes forever.Library Ogre wrote:rogerd1 wrote:Kendragon333 wrote:Updating the rules would require someone with an idea of how to do so. I don't think constantly updating the books the way D&D is constantly updated is an option.
Why would it not be possible or an option to update like DnD?
To an extent, Palladium doesn't have the manpower to do so; smaller shops, with less turnover, don't revise their rules nearly as often; you're more likely to get slight changes than a full revision.
Palladium also has pursued as "all our stuff is compatible with all our other stuff" angle, which isn't QUITE true (1e v. 2e), but it's mostly true. A big revision of the rules would break this, and it might draw in more people, but it also might alienate their core customers, who are pretty much all they have right now.
Library Ogre wrote:Oh, way more than that.
You have White Box, the first stuff to come out.
You have Holmes, you have Mentzer, you have the BECMI/RC era by Allston. You have 1e AD&D, 2e AD&D, 3e D&D, 3.5 D&D (which had several significant shifts, really more than you see between 1e and 2e). You then have 4e, which also had Essentials, which made some large changes. Then you have 5e.
Library Ogre wrote:but Palladium has chosen not to come out with a new edition, preferring instead to do iterative improvements that get spread over a wide area. With Rifts, they licensed out the setting to Savage Worlds. But they don't want to do a new edition or rules clean-up.
Kendragon333 wrote: Palladium does not have a large staff. That is one reason it takes so long or the books to come out. The other reason is that Kevin insists on editing and adding to all the books himself, which takes forever.
Exactly.rogerd1 wrote:Kendragon333 wrote: Palladium does not have a large staff. That is one reason it takes so long or the books to come out. The other reason is that Kevin insists on editing and adding to all the books himself, which takes forever.
This is called Micromanagement, and is quite frankly poor business.
rogerd1 wrote:I could go on. The point is they all have basic rules attached to them, then have setting specific rules.
Goblin-Jack wrote:Rogerd1, this is a tired argument that many people have made for upwards of 40 years; would you like to place a gentleman's bet (no actual money wagered) on when you anticipate this happening? My bet is, Palladium Books is not dying as a company any time in the next 40 years.
Library Ogre wrote:Don't have to tell me; most of my for-fun work these days is SWADE, just because I can use it for a lot of things from only a few references.
Library Ogre wrote:Though, consider it's loss in status over the last 20 years or so, from its zenith in the 90s. For a while, Rifts could realistically boast being the 3rd most popular RPG, behind D&D and Vampire. Even the other World of Darkness lines weren't seen as contenders. Now? It is pretty niche, and, IME, regarded as ossified. How many of the innovations that are bragged about on the Company Profile are from 40 years ago? How many are new?
If you look at the comments around Savage Rifts, there's a lot of "Thank goodness it's getting a decent system". Discussing the Megaversal system, you hear the same refrain, again and again... "The world-building is cool, but the mechanics suck."
Library Ogre wrote:With regards to Rifts, it often has "Man, they really like their fascists" and "How many stereotypes can we fit in a single book?" added on.
rogerd1 wrote:Library Ogre wrote:Oh, way more than that.
You have White Box, the first stuff to come out.
You have Holmes, you have Mentzer, you have the BECMI/RC era by Allston. You have 1e AD&D, 2e AD&D, 3e D&D, 3.5 D&D (which had several significant shifts, really more than you see between 1e and 2e). You then have 4e, which also had Essentials, which made some large changes. Then you have 5e.
Yes, there were a lot of them. DnD 6e, a.k.a One DnD is coming soon.
But the point is that in the time between Palladium 1e, and 2e (HU 3e) coming out, DnD and Shadowrun have gone through multiple new editions - admittedly, a lot of people are not keen on Shadowrun due to its crunchiness.
The point remains valid and unchanged though. Palladium has not improved with a single centralised book of rules, that have attempts at balance, and primarily work with most other products.
Library Ogre wrote:but Palladium has chosen not to come out with a new edition, preferring instead to do iterative improvements that get spread over a wide area. With Rifts, they licensed out the setting to Savage Worlds. But they don't want to do a new edition or rules clean-up.
And that is why people don't really buy it, because the rules are spread out over multiple books which should not be necessary to access basic rules.
SWADE has basic rules
DnD has basic rules
Pathfinder has basic rules
Eclipse Phase
13th Age
Modern Age / Fantasy Age 2e
I could go on. The point is they all have basic rules attached to them, then have setting specific rules.
Palladium will never pull in the younger crowd until it gets its act together! Otherwise it will keep losing, and bleeding out until it closes.
rogerd1 wrote:Library Ogre wrote:Don't have to tell me; most of my for-fun work these days is SWADE, just because I can use it for a lot of things from only a few references.
True, plus you could get a character from Savage Pathfinder, or Savage Fantasy Companion with Heavy (+2) armour or powers and fit right into Savage Rifts, no problem.
Library Ogre wrote:Though, consider it's loss in status over the last 20 years or so, from its zenith in the 90s. For a while, Rifts could realistically boast being the 3rd most popular RPG, behind D&D and Vampire. Even the other World of Darkness lines weren't seen as contenders. Now? It is pretty niche, and, IME, regarded as ossified. How many of the innovations that are bragged about on the Company Profile are from 40 years ago? How many are new?
If you look at the comments around Savage Rifts, there's a lot of "Thank goodness it's getting a decent system". Discussing the Megaversal system, you hear the same refrain, again and again... "The world-building is cool, but the mechanics suck."
Palladium as a product is a virtual dinosaur, and slowly dying, and Savage Rifts is likely keeping it alive.
Plus, as you, and others have said, the rules for Savage Rifts rock, and work really well.
Library Ogre wrote:With regards to Rifts, it often has "Man, they really like their fascists" and "How many stereotypes can we fit in a single book?" added on.
I think this is also a case of Palladium being a product of its time, when Indiana Jones was slaying Nazi's by the bucketload, so killing them was cool. Now.....having such a polarising set of characters, all the while is not so good. I know KS has said in his Rifts books about liking clear bad guys, but they don't have to be the Baby Eating Bishop of Barton Wells (Blackadder joke for anyone who didn't know).
Sambot wrote:We can do that with Rifts.
Sambot wrote:I consider Palladium a decent system and that other game's mechanics suck.
Sambot wrote:I don't know about Savage Worlds. I haven't tried it but I hated Star Wars D20 and never understood DnD, Pathfinder, or A Time of War.
Sambot wrote:Being a product of it's time can be said of current games were there are no clear bad guys and evil characters are just misunderstood and in need a hug.
Sambot wrote:If they want baby eating bad guys, the bad guys eat babies.
Sambot wrote:If they bad guys aren't really bad, they're not really bad.
rogerd1 wrote:Sambot wrote:We can do that with Rifts.
You don't have MDC armour in Fantasy, so this is a lie!
Whereas with Savage Pathfinder I can do exactly that.
Sambot wrote:I consider Palladium a decent system and that other game's mechanics suck.
Hahahahahahahahaha!
Sambot wrote:I don't know about Savage Worlds. I haven't tried it but I hated Star Wars D20 and never understood DnD, Pathfinder, or A Time of War.
Try 13th Age, Modern Age / Fantasy Age 2e, Tri-Stat, Age of Sigmar, Wrath & Glory, Trinity Continuum, Torg 2e, Wordplay, Omni.
Sambot wrote:Being a product of it's time can be said of current games were there are no clear bad guys and evil characters are just misunderstood and in need a hug.
This is a rather silly statement.
Sambot wrote:If they want baby eating bad guys, the bad guys eat babies.
My statement was used an extreme example, and should not be happening in an rpg, unless agreed by all by all players.Sambot wrote:If they bad guys aren't really bad, they're not really bad.
Bad guys are bad guys. They don't need to be 2-dimensional all of the time.
Sambot wrote:rogerd1 wrote:Sambot wrote:We can do that with Rifts.
You don't have MDC armour in Fantasy, so this is a lie!
Whereas with Savage Pathfinder I can do exactly that.
It is no lie. Rifts has all the races Palladium does. We also have MDC equipment and weapons. We can quite easily have a fantasy game with MDC using Rifts if we want.
You can't do that with just Savage Rifts. As you said, you have to bring in characters from other books.
ShadowLogan wrote:Sambot wrote:rogerd1 wrote:Sambot wrote:We can do that with Rifts.
You don't have MDC armour in Fantasy, so this is a lie!
Whereas with Savage Pathfinder I can do exactly that.
It is no lie. Rifts has all the races Palladium does. We also have MDC equipment and weapons. We can quite easily have a fantasy game with MDC using Rifts if we want.
You can't do that with just Savage Rifts. As you said, you have to bring in characters from other books.
While it is true that Palladium Fantasy titles do not have MDC armor or weapons in them per say (though some books might have MD conversions available like D&G), I do agree though it is entirely possible to construct a fantasy themed game using various Rifts books if you know where to look:
-Rifts does have numerous examples of Rune Weapons, which are found in PF
-Rifts does have various magic gear that can be used (even ignoring its default TW)
-Rifts does have magical "Fantasy" esque weapons that can do MD, and non-EBA magical armor is a thing
-Rifts does have some non-magical Fantasy-esque weapons (Steel Tree, Larhold, Kissinite((sp?))) and armor (hide armor exists in numerous books) that can be classified as MDC-level that would not qualify as "magical" IMHO.
-Rifts (early titles) borrowed heavily from PF in terms of races and monsters IINM
-Rifts does have non-tech powers that could be seen as fantasy-esque (Spirit West Traditionalist Tribes IINM, there are a few in South America 1&2, Dinosaur Swamp tribes ((not that they don't have tech)), several D-Bees in WB30 also fall into this category, Africa might also fall in to this category outside of the Pheonix Empire)
-Rifts Wormwood DB, Mystic Russia and England WBs might also qualify in this respect (or run as such, I'm not to familiar with the titles in question)
Sambot wrote:ShadowLogan wrote:Sambot wrote:rogerd1 wrote:Sambot wrote:We can do that with Rifts.
You don't have MDC armour in Fantasy, so this is a lie!
Whereas with Savage Pathfinder I can do exactly that.
It is no lie. Rifts has all the races Palladium does. We also have MDC equipment and weapons. We can quite easily have a fantasy game with MDC using Rifts if we want.
You can't do that with just Savage Rifts. As you said, you have to bring in characters from other books.
While it is true that Palladium Fantasy titles do not have MDC armor or weapons in them per say (though some books might have MD conversions available like D&G), I do agree though it is entirely possible to construct a fantasy themed game using various Rifts books if you know where to look:
-Rifts does have numerous examples of Rune Weapons, which are found in PF
-Rifts does have various magic gear that can be used (even ignoring its default TW)
-Rifts does have magical "Fantasy" esque weapons that can do MD, and non-EBA magical armor is a thing
-Rifts does have some non-magical Fantasy-esque weapons (Steel Tree, Larhold, Kissinite((sp?))) and armor (hide armor exists in numerous books) that can be classified as MDC-level that would not qualify as "magical" IMHO.
-Rifts (early titles) borrowed heavily from PF in terms of races and monsters IINM
-Rifts does have non-tech powers that could be seen as fantasy-esque (Spirit West Traditionalist Tribes IINM, there are a few in South America 1&2, Dinosaur Swamp tribes ((not that they don't have tech)), several D-Bees in WB30 also fall into this category, Africa might also fall in to this category outside of the Pheonix Empire)
-Rifts Wormwood DB, Mystic Russia and England WBs might also qualify in this respect (or run as such, I'm not to familiar with the titles in question)
There's also bows that fire MD Arrows along with vibro-weapons, so it's totally doable.