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Posted: **Thu Jul 14, 2022 11:30 pm**

level 5 edit

Warning: Just because you edited your thread and restarted it does not get around the rules related to spamming.

Posted: **Thu Jul 14, 2022 11:54 pm**

Well, mind block says you can't sense anything or use any other psychic abilities while it is up. Group mind block says that it works exactly like mind block, but then goes on to say that you can use detect psionics while under the effect. So, the citation is that the 2 entries basically contradict each other and it is left up to argument what actually might work. If that works, what is the rationale for preventing other sense abilities that really only affect the senses of the one using the power? Who cares, it is Rifts!

It was a lot simpler when mind block was "a mental wall that prevents the penetration of telepathy, empathy, sense good or evil, and detect psionics", and group mind block was "mind block exactly like the level two ability, except that
it covers a group instead of an individual. The psionic can cover a number of beings equal to his level." I find it hilarious that detect psionics is specifically called out as blocked by the ability in old versions, while the most up to date specifically says it will work.

Posted: **Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:23 am**

Level 5 edit

Posted: **Fri Jul 15, 2022 5:27 am**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:In Rue's description of GMB it says that a Detect Psionics can be used to find out if someone is using GMB on them.

What other psi powers do you think should be usable by chars not producing the GMB be, while inside a GMB just like Detect Psionics?

Or if you want to say which psi powers it does block, then feel free to state your answer that way.

(if you think you have a canon answer for this question then a citation is required in your post.)

This question was asked a while ago. My interpretation is this - it doesn't say that victims affected by the group mind block are able to use the detect psionics power, it says that a detect psionics will indicate a group mind block - I take this to mean (as no-one can use psionics within the mind block), that it must mean detectable from outside the range of the mind block. That way there is no contradiction.

Group mind block has a 120ft radius range, and detect psionics is 30ft range per level, so a fourth level or higher psychic could detect a group mind blocker from outside its influence. Even a first level psychic 121ft-149ft away from the group mind blocker could detect a third person affected by the group mind block who is no more than 30ft away from them and within the 120ft radius of the block.

Or perhaps detect psionics indicates the general area affected by the group mind block and doesn't need to focus on the person who activated it or one of its victims. Enabling the psionics detector to stay out of the influence of the group mind block if they can.

Posted: **Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:30 am**

Whaaat? More bad writing from Palladium? No way!

I think Soldier of Od pretty much has the right of it, at least for how it was intended to be. I mean, in the same sentence it says that it absolutely positively cannot be detected by any means known to man, alien, or god, but... oh by the way, Detect Psionics can detect it no problem. XD

To me, it's saying that yes, the Mind Block effect of it is does indeed block all sensory-based powers, including Detect Psionics. But someone not affected by Group Mind Block can easily use Detect Psionics to sense it (ie, the baddie is all "why ain't my powers working on these punks, lemme use this Detect Psionics power I have and... oh they put up GMB, well all right then"), as could someone who was using Detect Psionics just before they were affected by it ("aww hell, that guy just hit us with GMB you guys"). I would definitely not let someone already affected by GMB activate Detect Psionics, however, as that power should be thwarting the use of any type of sensory powers like that as, you know, it's the whole point.

That is, that's how I'd handle it if I didn't handle Mind Block completely different altogether. I let it work to block out hostile/unwanted psionics that directly affect the mind or senses, as opposed to a blanket effect. But I know that's certainly not how the power was written or even intended to be used, it's just what I prefer because I personally think it's dumb to have a whole host of abilities that cripple you more than they cripple potential threats who you don't even know for sure are bothering to try to read your mind. Or worse, letting any low-level psychic with a wild talent screw over every Mind Melter they run into just by forcibly triggering their Mind Block Auto-Defense at random intervals just for shiz and giggles.

Posted: **Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:52 am**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Thank you for stating the background of the question Kraynic. Even though it's mixed in with your opinion.
Do you have an answer for the question presented though? Or were you making a long winded excuse for you not to answer the question asked? If the later is true then why post anything at all?

Just because you don't like my answer doesn't mean I didn't provide one.

Posted: **Fri Jul 15, 2022 6:18 pm**

level 3 Edit

I removed my post from this topic because the posters that responded only talked about their own house rules and not the question I asked in the OP.

Posted: **Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:39 pm**

level 5 edit

Posted: **Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:02 am**

Palladium Fantasy RPG page 170 – Mind Block: the character cannot sense anything, cannot use psychic abilities, nor be psionically influenced by others.

Palladium Fantasy RPG page 174 – Group Mind Block: The group mind block works just like the individual mind block power.
Everyone within the 120 foot (36.6 m) radius of effect will be automatically blocked.
It can be a means of protecting those around the psychic from psionic probes and mind attacks, but it can also be used to prevent outside forces (good or evil) from communicating via telepathy or empathy.

Nobody within range of the group mind block can use any psychic abilities. In addition, they are protected/blocked from telepathy, empathy and similar powers from outside its range. These are the rules.

Posted: **Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:33 pm**

level 5 edit

Posted: **Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:07 am**

As far as I am concerned you have misunderstood the rules as written. That is why I responded (to this and the other time you asked the same question) – to highlight a misinterpretation of the rules and help by clarifying how the power actually works by the rules as written. We clearly have a difference of opinion here. That does happen with much of the writing in Palladium books. I can see why someone might think the power works the way you think it does, but I disagree with your interpretation of the text. Can you please try to engage in reasonable discussion about it? If not, please just ignore everything that follows and just not respond. Thank you.

The text does say that group mind block stops people other than the user from using other psychic powers. As I already quoted:
Everyone within the 120 foot (36.6 m) radius of effect will be automatically blocked.
The group mind block works just like the individual mind block power.
A mind blocked character cannot use psychic abilities.

It does not say that the group mind block works just like the individual mind block power only for the person activating the power – everyone within the radius is mind blocked as per the individual power.

The bonus to save would apply to psychic and mental attacks from outside the radius of the group mind block. I think that is quite clear. It would also apply to non-psychic “mental attacks” from anywhere. If you think that this bonus to save granted by the individual mind block power applies to all recipients of the group mind block, why do you think that the other effects of the individual mind block don’t apply to them?

I answered your question: What psi powers do see not being affected by the group mind block?
Answer: none – all powers are prevented from use by those within a group mind block.

Posted: **Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:37 pm**

I completely agree with Soldier of Od's interpretation on this one. Everyone's psionics in the area would be blocked. That pretty obviously seems to be the intent of the ability.

Posted: **Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:49 pm**

Soldier of Od wrote:A mind blocked character cannot use psychic abilities.

No, the MB power only talks about the character using the MB power. No one else. Extending the 'can't use their own powers' to others under the effect of a GMB is your house rule. Even though the text You Cited gives an exception to the blocking of sensing powers, that psychics within the GMB AoE can use the Detect Psionics psi power. Which happens to be a sensing power one of the two types of powers MB & GMB specifically blocks. So since there is that exception shouldn't you think about what else you missed in your reading of the powers.
( Yes, this would be a great time for Kevin S, himself to post a ....clarification....)

Again you are not answering the question posed in my OP. Only stating your own house rule as if was canon. Effectively hijacking my totally relevant topic again.

Now, if you continue posting to this topic you are required to answer the question asked, using the idea that only the User of the GMB is blocked from using his or her own psi powers.

EDIT: A post explaining why, by rules as written, no powers can be used is a legitimate answer to this question.

Admin Team

Posted: **Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:14 pm**

::rolls his eyes:: Why do you even bother asking a question when you're only looking for people to confirm your weird house rules? Because that's all that's going on here.

The correct answer is that everyone affected by Group Mind Block is under the effects of a Mind Block, which includes them not being able to use any of their psychic abilities (unless a power/ability specifically states otherwise). Your erroneous interpretation to rationalize your house rules notwithstanding.

You're also not a forum moderator. You don't get to tell people where and when they can post here.

EDIT: You are not a moderator either, please leave weighing in on another poster's behavoir to us. These types of posts only cause things to escalate.

Admin team

Posted: **Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:58 am**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:No, the MB power only talks about the character using the MB power.

Greetings and Salutations. This is, in a sort, correct. Anyone using Mind Block cannot use psychic powers. Group Mind Block causes everyone in the range to use Mind Block (whether they want to or not). So anyone within the influence of Group Mind Block cannot use psychic powers because they are all using Mind Block. Note: This is like having an ally erect a wall between you and the enemy. You can't take cover behind the wall, while simultaneously saying you can shoot through the wall since you didn't put the wall in place. The wall is there, and stops attacks both ways as long as it's there.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Even though the text You Cited gives an exception to the blocking of sensing powers, that psychics within the GMB AoE can use the Detect Psionics psi power.

That's not actually what the passage says, though that is a possible interpretation of the passage. What the passage actually reads is ...

(only a detect psionics will indicate a group mind block)

That tells us that Detect Psionics will detect a Group Mind Block. It does NOT specify that a person within the Group Mind Block may use the power to detect the usage. I can think of two likely interpretations.

1: A person can use Detect Psionics, regardless of location, to detect Group Mind Block.
2: A person outside the influence of Group Mind Block and detect the usage of Group Mind Block. (Example: Group Mind Block affects a 120 foot radius. Detect Psionics has a 30 foot range per level. So a 1st Level character with Detect Psionics 140 ft away could sense the usage on someone on the edge of the Group Mind Block's effect. Also, a 5th level character with Detect Psionics could detect the usage all the way back to its center. And a 10th level character with Detect Psionics could see the entire radius.) This would not directly help those within the radius, but can be used by someone outside of the influence to alert those within the area and possibly direct them to an appropriate target.

The first option is possible, but contradicts other parts of the text. The second option also seems possible, and does not contradict the other parts of the text. The first option requires a bunch of extra questions and house rules to make work (like the purpose of this thread). The second option does not. I'm inclined to think the second option is the accurate interpretation because of ... well, evidence.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Since none of the text says that the GMB stops anyone but the user of the power from using other psychic powers ...
[snip]
Additionally
If the GMB stopped other psions from using all psi powers that in itself would be a mental attack that could be saved vs.

Actually, the Group Mind Block power states ...

... but it can also be used to prevent outside forces (good or evil) from communicating via telepathy or empathy.

We clearly see it can stop at least some psychic powers. So we already know, expressly, that others are not free to use any psychic powers they want, even though your above claim is that it doesn't stop anyone other than the user (which I take it to mean the psychic equivalent of caster, since everyone affected is using the power). Furthermore, limiting someone else's usage of Telepathy and Empathy would equally fall into this being a mental attack, yet the power clearly does not have a Saving Throw. So your stance is not supported by the text that's actually in the book. Note: As an individual, I think it should have a Saving Throw, but my opinion is not relevant to what the book actually provides.

Since there are at least 2 exceptions to your above claim, I'll ask: "So since there is that exception shouldn't you think about what else you missed in your reading of the powers."

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:MB gives a bonus vs mental attacks....if other psychics couldn't use their powers at all then the bonus vs mental attacks would be excluded.

Other psychics can use their powers, just not psychics within the range of influence of Group Mind Block. In other words, Group Mind Block affects a 120 ft. radius. Any psychic 121 ft. away or further can still use their psionics, and can use those psionics to target those within the 120 ft. radius. The psionics that can be used against those within the Group Mind Block are: Any power that is not Telepathy, Empathy, Hypnotic Suggestion, Induce Nightmares, and empathic transfer (presumably Empathic Transmission). Note: I took my list from Palladium Fantasy Second Edition main book, page 174, and the list in other settings may vary to some degree.

So, if I was a psychic 121 ft away from the one originating the Group Mind Block, then I could use something like Mental Illusion on someone within the radius of the effect. That target would get a +1 to save since it is not one of the powers explicitly noted. If it's not one of the powers explicitly listed in Mind Block and the power grants a Saving Throw, then the character gets a +1 to save. Other options include Commune with Animals, Dispel Spirits, and Bio-Manipulation. Note: That is not an exhaustive list, just a few quick ones.

Psychic powers that do not require a Saving Throw can also be used against those within the protection of a Group Mind Block such as Telekinesis and Pyrokinesis, as long as the power has a range that keeps the attacking psychic out of range of the 120 ft. radius of influence. Of course, if the power doesn't have a Saving Throw, then the +1 bonus from Group Mind Block is of no benefit. Note: Using the physical wall analogy from earlier. Those further away can shoot upward and at an arc to fire over the wall (such as the arc of an arrow, or a mortar). The attack goes up, and then comes back down on the other side. Since the wall obstructs vision, it provides those within its protection bonuses.

I think that's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys.

Posted: **Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:19 am**

level 5 edit

Posted: **Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:05 am**

level 5 edit

Posted: **Sat Aug 20, 2022 7:32 am**

I'm taking bets on what the second thread where this nonsense was tried gets renamed.
7:5 it references another cartoon character OP finds attractive.

The Group Mind Block power, in its current version*, bypasses the agency of those within its area of effect. It is an explicit function call to the Mind Block power, which describes the power as "the ability to completely close or block oneself from all psychic/mental emanations." The initiation of the Mind Block is itself the act of closing or blocking oneself. There is no exception described for a psychic opening themself to psychic/mental/supernatural emanations while under a Mind Block. The intention is decided upon at the initiation of the power.

With a Group Mind Block acting on each person affected in the same way as the Mind Block, the intentionality stays with the psychic whom initiated the power. This is why it describes the power's use in preventing usage of powers by others. That the examples of powers used are among those explicitly listed under Mind Block does not mean the more general prohibition of power usage while under a Mind Block doesn't apply. If the discussion was on ways to lower psychic defenses while under the effect of a Mind Block there might be an argument to be had.

*Earlier versions of the ability are less specific. e.g. Palladium Fantasy 1st edition Revised, for which this is a complete nonissue. In the first of the three recent threads on this subject, in which several posts were deleted in a seeming fit of petulance, the specified text was RUE. I now see the value of the quote tag.

Perhaps if there had been a little critical reading beforehand regarding source selection drewkitty ~..~ might have gotten the answer which they seem to need.

Posted: **Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:13 am**

What is a 3 or 5 level of edit and what on earth was this post from the title?

Posted: **Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:19 am**

Curbludgeon put it nicely. But Drewkitty you can houserule it in your game any way you want it it be so you shouldnt feel bound by what Palladium has written. In fact it is encouraged to play it off RAW if you prefer it a certain way. :ok:

Posted: **Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:01 am**

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances ... d-wave.jpg

Warning: Trolling/Spamming Please post with substance addressing the topic or not at all.

Posted: **Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:41 pm**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Thank you for not actully posting nothing about the question asked in the Original Post. If you had I would of been delighted you posted.

Greetings and Salutations. Actually, if you had read my post in its entirety you could've found answers to your question. Why? Because the difference between how everyone else posting is interpretating the written rules (which you call a house rule) and the way you interpret the written rules (which you refuse to acknowledge as house rules) has overlap.

But how about this: Instead of just trying to hold up your interpretation as true and by the rules while everyone else uses house rules (which will continue to hit resistance), why not try rewriting the power to the version that you believe is intended, and then ask for help fleshing out your rewrite with your questions.

Right now you're asking us to try and understand your interpretation, that comes off as a house rule to everyone else and (at least to me) inconsistent relying on selective reading (not the critical reading you insist upon) of the rules. Since none of us can know whatever version is floating around insider your head, none of us can accurately answer your question currently. The rewrite would allow everyone else to be on the same page as you, and you're more inclined to get help that way. This puts your ability to get help in your own hands. Meanwhile, your current method tries to put the burden on others to read your mind while simultaneously meeting additional resistance as you try to claim yours is the only true interpretation while everyone else is wrong. If that's a hill you're willing to die on, then understand you will basically be dying on it instead of getting actual help.

Note: I can point to the book and answer how various psionics would interact with Group Mind Block while using my (and seemingly everyone else in this thread) interpretation, while you need help with your interpretation because even to you it doesn't make entire sense and that's why you need help. This should raise a red flag.

On the other hand, you keep discussing that you did a 'critical reading,' but honestly it comes off as a selective reading where you applied only the parts that suit your personal stance. I will provide my critical reading of both powers (literally addressing every sentence), and I'm curious if you'd be willing to do the same. For accuracy, I'm using Palladium Fantasy Second Edition, Third Printing, pages 170 and 174. For space purposes, I will put this in Spoiler tags so not everyone else will have to deal with it if they do not want.

Spoiler:

Farewell and safe journeys to all.

Posted: **Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:09 pm**

1st we will go to the, GMB blocking the use of psychics that are not the one producing the GMB.
---In the current Rifts rules Mind block doesn't block the user from using other psi powers that are not listed as blocked in the description of the MB power. So all this harping about "works just as the MB power so EVERYONES powers are blocked are so much
---In the PF2 game, as I've already said the MB power's text only says it blocks the User from using any other power by inferencing that it does not mesh with intentions of using the mind block power. As such while the GMB power might block very specific set of power types to everyone within its AoE. It Doesn't say that it blocks ever other Psi's powers that don't fall within the limited sets of blocked powers.

Just because there are those that can't see around their own preconceptions about how things should work is the problem.

in the PF2/HU2/RMB mind block it is the intent of the MB user that is alluded to as the reason for them to be unable to use other psi powers.
This intent blockage is not a part of any other psychic within the GMB AoE. So they can use what psi powers are not listed as blocked in the MB and GMB texts.

In RUE Rifts there is non-of the cant use other psi powers text. So there is no <descriptive adverb> way for any psychic powers, other then the ones listed as blocked, to be blocked.

So the arguments that the topic highjackers are making is a boat load of nothing. For the text does not support their claims if read critically. How critically? Very <descriptive adverb> much. Meaning you can't just throw away word, paragraphs or sentences as just 'flavor text'.

Warning: Trolling - Referring to those who answered your post with a valid reading of a rule that was central to your question as thread hijackers does nothing to encourage dsicussion or turn down the temperature in this thread. You can civily debate their reading of the rules or you can ignore their responses, but you don't get to call them names.

Posted: **Sat Aug 20, 2022 10:27 pm**

level 5 edit

Posted: **Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:39 pm**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:1st we will go to the, GMB blocking the use of psychics that are not the one producing the GMB.
---In the current Rifts rules Mind block doesn't block the user from using other psi powers that are not listed as blocked in the description of the MB power. So all this harping about "works just as the MB power so EVERYONES powers are blocked are so much

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:In RUE Rifts there is non-of the cant use other psi powers text.

Greetings and Salutations. Well, then you're just wrong. The wordings in RUE is virtually the same as in PF2, with a small note added at the end. I even reference this in my breakdown (something you refuse to do, even though you claim the book supports your claim). So if your claim is that the RUE and PF2 are so different to remove that limitation, then you're simply failing your literacy check. I'll quote it for you, again, though for simplicity.

Rifts Ultimate Edition, Second Printing Page 174, Mind Block wrote:When intentionally closed to the supernatural or psychic forces the character can not sense anything, can not use psychic abilities, nor be influenced by others.

In between "can not sense anything" and "nor be influenced by others" is the important part, since you seemed to miss it. That part states the character "can not use psychic abilities" while using Mind Block (being closed to the supernatural or psychic forces is how Mind Block is described to function in the previous sentence, in case you missed that one too). Note: I also checked the Errata for RUE on Palladium's website. This is not indicated as a change (though the additional note I mentioned in my previous breakdown, about it not protecting against magic, is something that was added after 1st Printing).

Now, the other section may have some level of validity. The line of limitations is as follows ...

Rifts Ultimate Edition, Second Printing Page 174, Mind Block wrote:A Mind Block will prevent penetration of Telepathy, Empathy, Hypnotic Suggestion, Day Dream and Empathic Transmission.

Now, this states that it prevents penetration. My initial read is that this is the detail of the defensive measures. However, I could see an argument that it is also a list of the only powers actually blocked/prevented by Mind Block. If this effect were true, then it would likely also mean that the +1 bonus also be granted to opponents when protecting against the psychic using Mind Block.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:---In the PF2 game, as I've already said the MB power's text only says it blocks the User from using any other power by inferencing that it does not mesh with intentions of using the mind block power. As such while the GMB power might block very specific set of power types to everyone within its AoE. It Doesn't say that it blocks ever other Psi's powers that don't fall within the limited sets of blocked powers.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:in the PF2/HU2/RMB mind block it is the intent of the MB user that is alluded to as the reason for them to be unable to use other psi powers.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:This intent blockage is not a part of any other psychic within the GMB AoE. So they can use what psi powers are not listed as blocked in the MB and GMB texts.

Okay, I'm curious enough to ask this question, is your stance that if the psychic using Mind Block (standard) chose to NOT block their psionics, then they can then use other psionic abilities? And it's only if they chose to NOT be able to use their abilities they cannot?

I'm asking as I'm trying to follow the consistency of your logic. Because if the only reason the minor power limits the user of psychic powers is intent, then the psychic using Mind Block should just intend to NOT cut off use of their psionics (for no good reason) and b just fine while simultaneously getting full bonuses of the power, by your interpretation. Of course, this is not supported by the rest of the write-up.

Now, I broke down how "intentionally" is a meaningless addition in the basic Mind Block power, and how clearly the intent of those covered by the Mind Block power is clearly not applicable in Group Mind Block, which you've chosen to just ignore because of your preconceived notions.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Just because there are those that can't see around their own preconceptions about how things should work is the problem.

Actually, I've tried to give you a chance to convince me. I went through all the work to break down the powers line by line and reference how the various sentences interact with each other. You can't be bothered to try and convince anyone else other than claiming you're right and/or making provably false claims. Some people won't ever change their mind, and some are willing. I like to use facts and reason, and backing them up with quotes and citations.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:So there is no <descriptive adverb> way for any psychic powers, other then the ones listed as blocked, to be blocked.

Well, one of the passages (in RUE, which you tried to use as your support) specifically says that "the character" "can not use psychic abilities." So there's definitely a valid way and interpretation this is true, even if you refuse to read it.

Now, I will grant that the section right after that tells us "the character" can not "be influenced by others." After that, we are given a list of specific abilities that it does prevent. Now, if someone can think of another psionic that influences people not on the list (and there probably is one), then this line is a bit of hyperbole. If so, the previous part of the list ("can not use psychic abilities") may also be hyperbole. Note: Since though, you say we can't ignore something and just throw it away, we cannot ignore or dismiss this as hyperbole, per your personal stance.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:So the arguments that the topic highjackers are making is a boat load of nothing. For the text does not support their claims if read critically. How critically? Very <descriptive adverb> much. Meaning you can't just throw away word, paragraphs or sentences as just 'flavor text'.

Well, the text very well does support their claims, though it is not entirely definitive. Your flat out inaccurate representation of what's in the book shows you didn't read it as critically as you claim though. For note, in my break down, I threw very little away as "flavor text" other than lines that had no bearing on the rules. If you want to quote those lines and provide a detailed explanation of how you think they're relevant to your stance, I'll be curious. Just claiming people are ignoring things because they're not ignoring because that's what you've done (as demonstrated above by you making the false claim that RUE removed a line to support you claim when the line is still there and goes against your claim) isn't critical reading of the book or other people's stances. You shouldn't just expect others to agree to anything you state is fact. If you think you're right and want others to actually agree with you, then you actually have to try and convince them with facts. Just stating others are wrong, misquoting books, and continuing to claim your right is not proof. Farewell and safe journeys.

Posted: **Sun Aug 21, 2022 7:33 am**

Prysus is thorough, cites evidence in his arguments and is engaging to OP for a debate to see where the thought process was.

OP - others have cited evidence as well to back their claims. And their approach merits consistency. Yours does not (especially on the part of others effect acts like they have mind block). I think you have it wrong and are therefore the one jumping to unofficial conclusions.

So, as I previously said feel free to houserule how you want but it's you that has the house rule, not the others.

But I do not ever think your would admit being wrong (even if readers can see how you may have gotten to that conclusion) so I will duck out of any more posts as IMHO it's pointless. I advise others to conclude the "debate" as agree to disagree in the name of peace and carrying on with your lives.

Posted: **Sun Aug 21, 2022 1:13 pm**

When there is multiple legitimate readings of a section of text (call them a & b). And the person posing a question instructs everyone to use legitimate reading a to answer the question posed. If the poster responds using reading b. Then that poster using reading b did not answer the question posed.

Posted: **Sun Aug 21, 2022 2:08 pm**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:When there is multiple legitimate readings of a section of text (call them a & b).

Firstly, well done for saying this - that is a huge step forward from unfairly mislabelling everyone else's comments as houserules or hijacking. I really mean that. I hope this means we can move on.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:And the person posing a question instructs everyone to use legitimate reading a to answer the question posed. If the poster responds using reading b. Then that poster using reading b did not answer the question posed.

But that isn't what you said - you asked a question about how the rules work (what psionic powers can be used by people under under a group mind block), and we all responded with how the rules work (none). If, in any of the multiple times you tried to pose the question you had actually asked it like that instead, you might have received the answers you wanted. You could have said something like:

drewkitty ~..~ never wrote:The consensus on these boards seems to be that Group Mind Block prevents anyone within it's radius from using any psionic powers. I don't believe it works this way and that is not the way I play it in my games. I believe that it only prevents the use of telepathy, empathy, and similar powers. If this were the case, what other powers do you think would be prevented from working by a group mind block?

In which case, my response might have been something like this:

Soldier of Od never wrote:I guess if that were how the power works, it would prevent the use of the other powers specifically listed under mind block as "preventing penetration": telepathy, empathy, hypnotic suggestion, induced nightmares and empathic transfer. I guess the question is essentially "what powers could be described as 'telepathy-like' powers", in which case, I would include commune with animals, and if induce nightmares is included, then perhaps insert memory, and cause and cure insanity? I think that is it, but it is difficult to give an informed opinion because I don't know the full details of how you are interpreting this rule.

Is that more like the kind of thing you were after? If you ask the right question in a reasonable way, and engage politely with others when their opinions differ from yours, you might get further than when being confrontational and aggressive. I hope that helps.

Posted: **Sun Aug 21, 2022 2:27 pm**

I have to agree with the consensus. Group Mind Block definitely strips everyone within range of their ability to use psychic abilities. Psychic abilities are, by definition, mental powers after all. Even Telekinesis or Bio-Regeneration still require you to use your mind to access the supernatural. So it not only makes sense by the rules, but thematically and conceptually as well.

But if it did work in the very weird way you propose for your house rules, it would probably be easier to say what types of abilities would work rather than try to list everything that wouldn't. The biggest problem with that is that the powers that do specifically state that they work even with Mind Block tend to be ones that definitely shouldn't, which makes for an odd bedfellow when trying to judge these things. After all, what exactly is it that makes those powers exceptions?

Posted: **Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:12 am**

What a debate! After years visiting this forum, I'm compelled to post something finally.

I've been thinking about the underlying idea about GMB and I think there is something we may all have overlooked in our rush for consensus. To be clear, I've used GMB the same way as most folks have already articulated. However, perhaps we made a biased assumption. Change that one assumption and Drewkitty is correct while staying RAW. Also, consensus does not canon make.

The assumption I infer from most posts is that GMB operates like a psychic version of an anti-magic cloud... something that envelops and affects everyone in range with a psychic null state as described in MB. Like a cellphone in a signal dead zone... all phones are equally affected That's how I envision it working too. But nowhere in the text does it say this power has a geometry of a cloud [If I'm wrong on this point please provide a citation for my education, as I haven't read everything]. The key geometrical things we know for sure from canon is that the power's effect is a "mental barrier", extends a certain distance, the caster is at the center, at least the caster is closed and unable to use other powers, and that "penetration" of the outer boundary by certain psi powers is not permitted. So, what if GMB created a different geometry than a cloud, as RAW does not state explicitly what that geometry is? What if it were... a sphere? Lacking any explicit statement in the text on this matter, I acknowledge this is as much a house rule/assumption as claiming that GMB operates with a cloud-like geometry.

Imagine, if you will for a moment, a sphere that has a boundary across which specific psychic emanations cannot penetrate either way. However, within the sphere, conditions appear normal - like a phone in a dead zone, where calls can't be sent or received, but locally run apps work fine - and the power's descriptive text vaguely suggests this as enclosed persons may be caught unaware of their situation. Everyone except the GMB caster could use their psychic powers (or play solitaire on their phone) as much as they wish as long as their power isn't crossing the sphere's threshold. In fact, they wouldn't even know for sure until they used their detect psionics power to find that they are in a sphere that centers on the caster. In the case of an evil NPC, the discovered caster would be certainly at great risk since they would have to drop the GMB in order to defend themselves with psi powers, but every bad guy needs a weakness...

So how would this scene play out?

A psychic party arrives at the mine shaft in which the villagers said the beast lurked. Two of the party follow a guide from the village into the mine, leaving their companions on the surface. The mine seems unstable and dust falls with each loud sound. So the two psychics communicate to each other telepathically. As the guide and two adventurers venture further, the two send mental messages to the guide, but get no response. At first, this might mean nothing, as the guide is a simple local farmer, but as time goes on, one of the psychics gets suspicious when the guide offers no reaction to even the strongest mental projection. In consternation, she sends a mental message to her companions on the surface, but can't reach them... the message is blocked! Worried she shares her concern with the other psychic, who suspects foul play and uses his power of detect psionics. He finds that the guide has extended a GMB bubble around them to prevent communication with the surface. In fact, unbeknownst to them, they have not been receiving frantic messages from their companions saying that the body of the guide had been found in a nearby barn. Unfortunately, the "guide" has tired of the game and transfigures into the very beast they were seeking...

But wait! The text says it works like MB! And indeed it does. The spherical geometry theory could be applied to MB as well... think of an invisible fish bowl around their head (or just the psychic center in the brain?) preventing penetration, but also closing the caster off inside a very small mental space. So MB and GMB could be simply a matter of scale as the sphere is simply extended beyond just the caster to encompass others. In both cases, the caster is unable to use their powers, but anyone else caught within the sphere (at least so far in our description of the GMB sphere) is free to use whatever power within the sphere, as long as it isn't a prescribed one extending beyond the sphere.

The one point of irritation for me when it comes to the spherical theory is explaining why "the character...can not use psychic abilities" in MB, which is inherited by GMB. Using cloud-like geometry, fine, no one has powers as it could be inferred that it is nature of the 'stuff'. However, humor me as we stick to the spherical geometry. On the one hand, this could be read as all within the GMB would lose their abilities... just because [enter what metaphysical reason you want]. However, if that were the case, then it would not take a detect psionics power to notice something was wrong. Any power failing would indicate a preventative force of some kind and suspect #1 is GMB. A different read of the RAW text looks at the sentence's logical structure - that the loss of abilities is the result of effecting closure (eg. I can't see you when I closed the door), not the result of the state of closure (eg. I can't see you because the door is closed). Put another way, perhaps abilities are lost by monopolizing the caster's attention in order to effect the MB/GMB, like using all of a CPU's computing power to solve a single problem at the exclusion of all else (yes, this is a speculative description, but the underlying concept supports the MB text's sentence structure). Therefore, only the caster would be unable to use psi abilities, as only the caster is maintaining the GMB. In the instance of MB, no biggie, the result is the same from either interpretation. But in the case of GMB, this has the broader implications we are struggling with.

Enough of this logical babble - does RAW say whether it's one way or the other? No, grammatically it doesn't. 'When closed, no abilities' does not prove causation, simply correlation. If only it were written 'Because closed, no abilities'... then we would have causation. So, there is no definitive canon of causality for casters losing abilities. As a result, because we don't know why, we have generally assumed there is causation and extended that to everyone in the assumed cloud-like geometry. RAW fails us once again.

Drewkitty ~..~, if this explanation of potential psychic physics works for you and your reading of RAW, permit anyone other than the caster to use what powers they possess within the sphere, except those that explicitly can't penetrate the boundary. It could certainly add another layer of subtle paranoia to any psychic party.

Cheers all!

Posted: **Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:42 pm**

This was not a debate, it was an act of seizing a BBS topic by posters to state their house rule on the general subject of their house rule even though the question asked in the OP said to answer the question under a defined way of looking at the subject.
(I know I gave said instruction in the 2nd topic that got seized diverted again.)

If you have to add an idea to the rules governing something...it is a house rule. Which is what those who seizing these BBS topics did.

As for the poster's concultions of their house rule. I can see how someone who is not OCD about words could come to that conclution. And even though they had to pick and chose which text they drew on for the basis of their house rule. They even rejected me pointing out by the text they said supported them that the reason why the Psi producing the MB couldn't use any other power was because they had to have their total intent on making the MB happen. They have not shown me that I'm wrong. I very much understand the text under dispute. It talks about 'the user of the power', not 'who is mind blocked'.

if I had defined the way of looking at the question as to use the current Rifts text of the MB and GMB psi powers the posters who seizing a BBS topic to state their house rule would not have had any legs, hands, fingners, toes or head to stand on because there is no text in the RUE MB text that any other of the Psi's powers are blocked. So there is no text that could be misunderstood.

Posted: **Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:43 pm**

I didn't want to go nuclear....

For the Rifts Game, and Using the current Rifts rules found in RUE Answer the following question.

What psi powers do you see not being affected by the group mind block because they are not powers specifically listed as being blocked?

Posted: **Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:41 pm**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:What psi powers do you see not being affected by the group mind block because they are not powers specifically listed as being blocked?

By those under the effects of Group Mind Block: All of them are blocked as they cannot use any psychic abilities (not just powers, but any abilities labeled as psychic in nature) except those that specifically state that they work while under the effects of Mind Block/prevent Mind Block from working.

Powers blocked by psychics outside the range of Group Mind Block: Day Dream, Empathic Transmission, Empathy, Hypnotic Suggestion, Telepathy for sure, since they're specifically called out by the power. Other powers that I'd include in that list include: Clairvoyance, Commune with Spirits, Group Trance, Induce Sleep, Machine Ghost, Mentally Possess Others, Mind Bond, Mind Wipe, Object Read, Presence Sense, Radiate Horror Factor, Remote Viewing, See Aura, Sense Evil, Sixth Sense, and all of the Telemechanics. Where applicable of course (ie, using them against a sentient mind protected by [Group] Mind Block). A few others are debatable too; in general, if it affects someone's mind/emotions/senses, it'd be blocked.

Again, (Group) Mind Block prevents the individuals under its effects from using ANY of their psychic abilities. The other psionic powers/abilities listed in the description are limitations on others using those abilities against the protected individual.

It's an exceptionally potent super psionic power that can lockdown nearly any psychic within 120 feet. The only real defense against it is Intuitive Combat and similar abilities that specifically state that you cannot benefit from Mind Block while they're active, but only if its already active and only for as long as it remains active.

That said, there are some genuinely interesting questions to be had. For example, what happens to a Crazy if they come under the effects of a Group Mind Block (or they throw up their own Mind Block)? Do they lose most of their combat bonuses as a result, or are those not considered psychic in nature? Their psionic powers are obviously blocked, but what their Bio-Regeneration? Or even their insanities? The same question applies to Cyber-Knights and their Psi-Sword ability. How about a Psi-Ghost or Nega-Psychic walking into range of an existing Group Mind Block? And so on and so forth.

Posted: **Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:51 pm**

You misquoted me.

You left out these words "For the Rifts Game, and Using the current Rifts rules found in RUE Answer the following question." from your quote. .

You also Inverted the direction of answer I was asking for. You gave a list of what Isn't available. I asked what Is available.

As such didn't answer My Question .... As Presented.

Posted: **Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:59 pm**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:You misquoted me, and didn't answer the question presented.

You left out these words "For the Rifts Game, and Using the current Rifts rules found in RUE Answer the following question." from your quote.

No I didn't. The answer applies to Rifts as well as every other Palladium Game I'm aware of that has super psionic powers.

You also Inverted the type of answer I was asking for. You gave a list of what Isn't available. I asked what Is available.

Everything not listed would work. It's not ******* rocket science.

Posted: **Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:02 pm**

Crimson Dynamo wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:You misquoted me, and didn't answer the question presented.

You left out these words "For the Rifts Game, and Using the current Rifts rules found in RUE Answer the following question." from your quote.

No I didn't. The answer applies to Rifts as well as every other Palladium Game I'm aware of that has super psionic powers.

Only the RMB & RGMG (& HU2) have the same MB text as the PF2 book. As such you didn't do due diligence to make sure you were using the correct text for the basis of your response.

Posted: **Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:04 pm**

I directly referenced the RUE rules. It's the only ******* book I have next to me.

We get it. You think you're a hyper genius who found the most amazing loophole in existence. But you're flat-out wrong. Period. It's not even a debate, even though a couple of people opted to humor you out of pity.

Create all the house rules you want in your game. Call the Mind Melter a P.C.C. all you want. Say Mind Block only affects a handful of powers on the person under its effects. No one gives a damn about your house rules. But that's what they are: House rules.

If you want opinions on what powers work/don't work with your house rules, fine. See my previous post in regards to the list of powers. Those won't work, all the others will. There's your answer. But it's a house rule.

Posted: **Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:18 pm**

I take it you are referring to this line.

When intentionally Closed to the Supernatural psychic forces the character can not sense anything, cannot use psychic abilities, nor be influenced by others.

Gee Again. A misunderstanding in the translation from MB to GMB. Fine.You have responded.
Now let others who are not so closed minded answer the question where a strict reading of the text is that only the user is blocked from using their own powers.

Posted: **Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:28 pm**

Mind Block, RUE, p. 174: "This is the ability to completely close or block oneself from all psychic/mental emanations. When intentionally closed to supernatural or psychic forces the character can not sense anything, can not use psychic abilities, nor be influenced by others. A Mind Block will prevent penetration of Telepathy, Empathy, Hypnotic Suggestion, Day Dream and Empathic Transmission. It can be an invaluable protective mask when dealing with malevolent psychic forces. Adds a bonus of+ l to save vs all psychic and mental attacks. Note: Mind Block only blocks psionic attacks that affect the psychic's mind or emotional state (i.e. Telepathy, Empathy, Hypnotic Suggestion, etc.). It offers [no] protection from magic." Emphases mine.

Mind Block prevents the person benefiting from the power from using any psychic abilities. It also blocks others from using specific types of powers against the Mind Blocked character. It's why it also offers that +1 bonus on saves against psychic and mental attacks in addition to completely blocking the other types of powers.

Your poor reading comprehension notwithstanding. The only one misunderstanding anything is you.

Posted: **Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:47 pm**

What the GMB text says...
"The group mind block works just like the individual mind block"

What you are saying
"The group mind block works just like the individual mind block to everyone within its AoE."

The GMB equation is A+B=B+A.
Not A+B= A to the nth power.

Posted: **Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:51 pm**

Forgive this bit of critical reading, but it seems unlikely that someone whom claims to be "OCD about words" would have misspelled the word conclusion as both concultions and conclution in the same sentence after 6 edits. Are all of their claims similarly build on a house of cards?

Warning: This post is trolling

Posted: **Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:48 pm**

Group Mind Block, RUE, p. 178: "The Master Psionic can instantly erect a mental barrier or Mind Block to protect himself and those around him, with in a 120 foot (36.6 m) area. The Group Mind Block works just like the individual Mind Block power." Emphasis mine. Everything else in the power just reinforces what Mind Block does. Nothing in the language--literally or contextually--changes anything about how Mind Block works.

"Just like" doesn't mean "kind of like" or "only in certain ways." You know, as someone who's allegedly OCD about words.

Posted: **Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:59 am**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:What the GMB text says...
"The group mind block works just like the individual mind block"

What you are saying
"The group mind block works just like the individual mind block to everyone within its AoE."

The GMB equation is A+B=B+A.
Not A+B= A to the nth power.

Let me break this down logically:

Mind Block works by closing people to the supernatural.
We are told this clearly.
When somebody is closed to the supernatural, they cannot use psychic powers, and psychic powers cannot affect them (at least, not as well).
That's the entire and exclusive way that the Mind Block power functions in any way: it a) closes people off to the supernatural, and b) there is no B; only A.
A is the entire list.
What the Mind Block power describes are the effects of somebody being closed to the Supernatural.

So let's do some syllogisms:

Premise 1: The only way that Mind Block provides protection is by closing people to the supernatural.
Premise 2: The people in a Group Mind Block are protected by Group Mind Block.
Conclusion: The people in a Group Mind Block are closed to the supernatural.

Premise 1: The people in a Group Mind Block are closed to the supernatural.
Premise 2: People who are closed to the supernatural cannot use psionic powers.
Conclusion: The people in a Group Mind Block cannot use psionic powers.

Does that make sense to you?
There is NO way for the Group Mind Block to work for everybody in the Group other than the same way it works individually, by closing people off to the supernatural.
The psychic putting up the Group Mind Block closing himself off from the supernatural cannot possibly protect anybody but him, because closing himself off from the supernatural IS the protection.
Literally the only thing that a Group Mind Block does according to the text is to close people off from the Supernatural, just like the individual Mind Block Power.
There is no way to have the protection without having the penalties, because the protection and the penalties are one and the same: you are closed off from the supernatural.

Posted: **Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:48 am**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:multiple legitimate readings

I was really pleased when you posted this - I thought you had finally accepted that everyone else's reading of how this rule works is legitimate even if you disagree with it.

But your very next post degrades to:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:it was an act of seizing a BBS topic by posters to state their house rule

even though in the meantime, two posters had responded in a wholly positive manner, answering your initial question as you have been demanding all along, and adding their ideas as to how your ruling might work. Your continued aggressive, rude and confrontational responses are quite simply offensive and are wholly uncalled for.

Nobody here has "houseruled" anything, nobody has "added an idea to the rules", nobody has "seized" or "hijacked" a topic. Nobody has "picked and chose" text - in fact one poster went through every single line of the text one by one!
You have asked the same question multiple times, and it has been legitimately answered multiple times, with thorough explanations of their reasoning and countless citations of evidence. The responses have been specifically identified in this thread as legitimate by the people who get to decide - the moderators.

Posted: **Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:17 pm**

In an attempt to make this thread at least somewhat useful, and because it may have gotten lost in the noise, I had added this earlier:

[Regarding Mind Block blocking all psychic abilities, not just psionic powers], there are some genuinely interesting questions to be had. For example, what happens to a Crazy if they come under the effects of a Group Mind Block (or they throw up their own Mind Block)? Do they lose most of their combat bonuses as a result, or are those not considered psychic in nature? Their psionic powers are obviously blocked, but what their Bio-Regeneration? Or even their insanities? The same question applies to Cyber-Knights and their Psi-Sword ability. How about a Psi-Ghost or Nega-Psychic walking into range of an existing Group Mind Block? And so on and so forth.

Posted: **Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:03 pm**

The Psyscape version of the Nega-Psychic is relevant here in a couple of ways. The first line under Closed to the Supernatural: "The Nega-Psychic is closed to the supernatural as if a Mind Block is constantly in force (no I.S.P. cost)" reinforces the notion that a Mind Block being in place necessarily equates to being closed off. In the next paragraph the Nega-Psychic is described as " "closed" to psionic communication, so he cannot be reached by telepathy or empathy unless the psychic deliberately concentrates to "open" himself to such things." This presents a situation where a character can arguably have up a Mind Block while lowering it for a particular purpose. Earlier the N-P is described as being immune to Mind Bleeder powers, and registering as a blank slate with respect to magical or psionic sensing powers such as Remote Viewing, Clairvoyance, and Detect Psionics. No mention is made of that changing should the N-P "open" themselves to the supernatural. What's more, the N-P has psychic powers which they are able to activate while their usual Mind Block is up, and they are "closed." This ability appears to be unique to the class, but if someone knows of an example which proves otherwise I'd be delighted to hear of it.

Posted: **Thu Aug 25, 2022 8:06 pm**

As to the complaining about why I was calling the house ruling that states that on-psi can use their psi powers within a GMB AoE as house rules.....

The canon GMB text is so loose that there can be several 'legitimate' house rules based off the same exact text. If you want to complain about that looseness? Then look at PalladiumBooks to voice them. Not to me.

In other words I was saying, ideas around the question I was trying to everyone thoughts on is legitimate.
And I was not responding to you.

As to me accepting your trying to brow beat me into thinking your house rule were canon...not one bit.
There would have to be an 'official clarification' about the GMB saying what was meant in the canon text for me to say what interpretation was correct.

-----------------------------

Now that the talking about the house rules that make the presumption that every psion within the AoE of a GMB can't use any of their Psi powers is done.

I'd like to get back to my original intent before these were seizing & taken over.

And since Crimson Dynamo requested a 'how do we answer the question' limitation....I am putting that limitation 1st, & then the question.

Using the idea that only the User of the GMB is blocked from using any other of their psi powers to answer the question, What powers can other psychics use while within the AoE of GMB?

The two powers that 1st came to mind to me were Speed Reading and Total recall. Why these two? First of all they are not among the types of powers that are listed as blocked by the GMB. Secondly is because they are both internal powers. That can't be blocked because their effects never leave the body of the user.

Again!!!
Using only the idea that only the user of the GMB him-/herself is blocked from using any other psi powers. Everyone else is only limited to sensory and telepathic powers being blocked. if using current Rifts text, also what specific powers are listed there too.

Posted: **Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:01 am**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The canon GMB text is so loose that there can be several 'legitimate' house rules based off the same exact text.

Incorrect.
Mind Block only works by closing people off to the supernatural.
Being closed to the supernatural provides both protection and blocks the ability to use psionics.
You cannot have one without the other, no more than you can have Group Invisibility where everybody gets the bonuses of being invisible, but only the caster actually IS invisible.

Again!!!
Using only the idea that only the user of the GMB him-/herself is blocked from using any other psi powers. Everyone else is only limited to sensory and telepathic powers being blocked. if using current Rifts text, also what specific powers are listed there too.

Dunno, man.
That's your house rule, how am I to know how you want it to work?

Once you're offroading, you can go wherever you like; asking for directions misses the point.

Posted: **Fri Aug 26, 2022 12:32 pm**

If you ignore that the Group Mind Block is making it so other people within the perimeter can't use their psychic abilities, then they're able to use any and all of their abilities without any problem, especially with those outside the range of the Group Mind Block.

However, if they want to use powers like Telepathy or Empathic Transmission against anyone else within the zone, they won't be able to affect those particular individuals. And all of their other psionic powers will grant them a +1 to their saving throws while in the area, too. Because that's all Mind Block does, aside from affecting the people using it themselves. Which you're ignoring in this house rule.

So yes, they're free to use Telepathy, Empathic Transmission, Speed Reading, Total Recall, and everything else. The only change is that they potentially have more people who they can't use them with/against. And if they use Intuitive Combat, they'll immediately lose their own protection against those same effects.

Posted: **Fri Aug 26, 2022 7:26 pm**

This still going on? OMG!

Any interpretations of the rules even misinterpretations aren't really house rules. A House rule would be someone knowing the rule works one way and choosing to ignore or amend that rule or add a new rule entirely. Even your interpretation isn't a house rule, it's a misinterpretation (according to everyone else on here). So I guess we all stop calling them house rules... :?:

I just noticed your signature says "May you be blessed with understanding, and the ability to change course when you are off the mark." Ironic.

Just wanted to add that taking the rules literally: "When intentionally closed to supernatural or psychic forces the character can not sense anything" - so this means that no one under the effect can see, hear, smell, taste or feel.....

You may continue the discussion. Good luck!

Warning: Flamebaiting - this post contributes nothing meaningful to the thread other than to further inflame the debate.

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