What was Tolkeen’s Flag or Emblem?

[GlitterKnight]

We know the CS marches to war beneath the black banner of the skull and thunderbolts, but what was Tolkeen’s blazon? What symbol do the Revenge Squads paint on the scenes of their bloody retribution?

I thought that Tolkien’s own symbol would be good, linked below. But if anybody recalls from the books what would be an official or good symbol for the Tolkeenites to rally behind?

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[SolCannibal]

We know the CS marches to war beneath the black banner of the skull and thunderbolts, but what was Tolkeen’s blazon? What symbol do the Revenge Squads paint on the scenes of their bloody retribution?

I thought that Tolkien’s own symbol would be good, linked below. But if anybody recalls from the books what would be an official or good symbol for the Tolkeenites to rally behind?

http://middleearthnews.com/wp-content/u ... arquee.png

Nice idea, but considering the glyph seems to be a merge of his many (J.R.R.T.) initials, maybe not. The Rs kind of jumped to me at first glance, truth be told.

Whatever you put inside, I would suggest their flag could be blue, based on the fact the flags of the city of Minneapolis and the Minnesota state being of that color.
True, considering it's a magical nation there's no guarantee whatsoever of some cultural continuity/connection*, but it's a good color and place to start i guess.


*AFAIK: Is Tolkeen's history ever adressed in the books? The most i can remember from anywhere is it being cited (in the FoM book probably) they were a splinter-state of the original Federation of Magic). That and the Council of Twelve existing for about 80-100 hundred years and Mida Elektis (the earth warlock old elven lady) being one of the original members (and almost queen, but she refused) ever since.

[SolCannibal]

In a game i played, where the party were troopers from a new nation sprang in the Magic Zone's borders in reponse to the CS' Campaign of Unity, the fact the newborn state entered war without a flag (the DM didn't think of the subject until someone asked about it) and one was made on PC initiative - because a robot scholar/scientist created to rebuild human society just couldn't leave that alone - was a fun minor plot point.

Tolkeen is obviously older than our game's Alliance so the lack of a flag might be less probable at first glance - but not impossible in the absence of any major conflict to bring the state's many communities, up to the CS' campaign, quite autonomous from each other it seems, together. Toying with the subject of Tolkeenites national identity - or lack of a clear one - could be a hook to get in a group of PCs' path.

[drewkitty ~..~]

...

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the first thing I thought of when seeing this was J. R. R. Tolkien.

[kaid]

A white flag?

[Warshield73]

A white flag?

Did you read the books? Truthfully it would be more of the Texas "Come and Take It" flag.

[SolCannibal]

A white flag?

Did you read the books? Truthfully it would be more of the Texas "Come and Take It" flag.

That is on itself a reference to the spartans' answer at an offering of surrender in Thermopylae, it seems.

Now i want to make a version of the flag with a helmet over the cannon in place of the star.
Or a Boom Gun and Glitter Boy helmet instead. (I joke, thought that would be good for a Merc Company, i guess)

Wait, wait - blue field for Minnesota/Minneapolis flags, firelance with dragon's head in place of cannon, hand holding fireball or lightning over it.
The phrase itself in some fancy font, maybe reminiscent of the cover of some editions of Lord of the Rings and such.

[Fenris2020]

Field azure, with scroll/parchment argent and pentacle gold emblazoned upon it.

[Hotrod]

Appropriate flag sigils for Tolkeen:

A mouse pulling a cat's tail
A dodo bird
That utterly stupid statue of a little girl standing defiantly in front of the raging bull statue on Wall Street.

Ok, with that out of my system, if you want to create a symbol for Tolkeen, there are several things to consider:
1. Symbols of the central authority, system of government, and shared ideals. Tolkeen has a king and some kind of council, and it's all about magical stuff. National treasures, heirlooms of the monarchy, and key instruments of its power are all good fodder for a central sigil.
2. Symbols of the local area's geography and economy are good, too. Perhaps a map of the main ley lines and nexuses in the area would be good to include.
3. Lineage from pre-existing political entities.

I honestly haven't dug into Tolkeen's background enough to have given its heraldry much thought

[Warshield73]

OK I link to videos too often in here but there is a great one from Templin on Fictional Flags which I think does a great job of going through what are some great guidelines. One of my biggest problems with so much of PB is that we don't get very good symbols, emblems, or flags. Except of course for the Coalition States who are favored above all others.

Appropriate flag sigils for Tolkeen:

A mouse pulling a cat's tail
A dodo bird

I know you're joking here but I think it gets to a problem that occurs when we discuss Tolkeen and that is that most people only see it as an antagonist for the CS. I think this is largely KS's and PB's fault as we never got a book or even a decent description for this city until it was time for the war this means very few people played there. I did, but that was largely due to one player in my group and the fact that when RMB came out no city was well described.

Tolkeen was it's own place and the people there would have chosen a symbol to represent them long before the CS war.

That utterly stupid statue of a little girl standing defiantly in front of the raging bull statue on Wall Street.

The only stupid about this arrangement is Wall Street being represented by a raging bull. Given it's history over the last 100 years an Ostrich with it's head up it's...I mean in the ground, would be more appropriate.

[Orin J.]

I honestly haven't dug into Tolkeen's background enough to have given its heraldry much thought

that's because it wasn't there until it was getting blown up. kind of a critical problem when trying to find it. that's honestly the core of the issue i had with tolkeen. the coalition is treated as an army, tolkeen is treated as several plucky bands of resistance fighters with no cohesive plan. i actually can't recall what tolkeen's overall strategy was beyond "fight them off however presents itself".

That utterly stupid statue of a little girl standing defiantly in front of the raging bull statue on Wall Street.

The only stupid about this arrangement is Wall Street being represented by a raging bull. Given it's history over the last 100 years an Ostrich with it's head up it's...I mean in the ground, would be more appropriate.

the bull was meant to represent wall street's blind fury chasing profits without any thought to the future, which is a pretty good representation (wall street added the little girl largely to try and invalidate the message for....some reason?).

[Warshield73]

I honestly haven't dug into Tolkeen's background enough to have given its heraldry much thought

that's because it wasn't there until it was getting blown up. kind of a critical problem when trying to find it. that's honestly the core of the issue i had with tolkeen. the coalition is treated as an army, tolkeen is treated as several plucky bands of resistance fighters with no cohesive plan. i actually can't recall what tolkeen's overall strategy was beyond "fight them off however presents itself".

Because both a narrative devices. The Tolkeen war is not really a war story it is just a backdrop for adventure. As I said I blame KS and PB in general for not developing this area enough before the war but that is something else entirely.

That utterly stupid statue of a little girl standing defiantly in front of the raging bull statue on Wall Street.

The only stupid about this arrangement is Wall Street being represented by a raging bull. Given it's history over the last 100 years an Ostrich with it's head up it's...I mean in the ground, would be more appropriate.

the bull was meant to represent wall street's blind fury chasing profits without any thought to the future, which is a pretty good representation (wall street added the little girl largely to try and invalidate the message for....some reason?).

I know the "bull in a China shop" theme of the statue the problem is that is not what most people think of when they see it. They see strength and vitality, the bull image just has too many ways you can spin it. My ostrich idea though, really only has one.

[Fenris2020]

Appropriate flag sigils for Tolkeen:

A mouse pulling a cat's tail
A dodo bird
That utterly stupid statue of a little girl standing defiantly in front of the raging bull statue on Wall Street.

Ok, with that out of my system, if you want to create a symbol for Tolkeen, there are several things to consider:
1. Symbols of the central authority, system of government, and shared ideals. Tolkeen has a king and some kind of council, and it's all about magical stuff. National treasures, heirlooms of the monarchy, and key instruments of its power are all good fodder for a central sigil.
2. Symbols of the local area's geography and economy are good, too. Perhaps a map of the main ley lines and nexuses in the area would be good to include.
3. Lineage from pre-existing political entities.

I honestly haven't dug into Tolkeen's background enough to have given its heraldry much thought

A lot of major CS fanboyz on here I see

[Hotrod]

Appropriate flag sigils for Tolkeen:

A mouse pulling a cat's tail
A dodo bird
That utterly stupid statue of a little girl standing defiantly in front of the raging bull statue on Wall Street.

Ok, with that out of my system, if you want to create a symbol for Tolkeen, there are several things to consider:
1. Symbols of the central authority, system of government, and shared ideals. Tolkeen has a king and some kind of council, and it's all about magical stuff. National treasures, heirlooms of the monarchy, and key instruments of its power are all good fodder for a central sigil.
2. Symbols of the local area's geography and economy are good, too. Perhaps a map of the main ley lines and nexuses in the area would be good to include.
3. Lineage from pre-existing political entities.

I honestly haven't dug into Tolkeen's background enough to have given its heraldry much thought

A lot of major CS fanboyz on here I see

Tolkeen was described in detail in the same book in which it was destroyed, and its rulers and people were portrayed as hopelessly outmatched underdogs largely saved by the incompetence of C.S. leadership. It's not that I'm a fan of the C.S. (quite the contrary), but that Tolkeen's existence only seemed important as an enemy for the C.S. to vanquish.

[Hotrod]

That utterly stupid statue of a little girl standing defiantly in front of the raging bull statue on Wall Street.

The only stupid about this arrangement is Wall Street being represented by a raging bull. Given it's history over the last 100 years an Ostrich with it's head up it's...I mean in the ground, would be more appropriate.

the bull was meant to represent wall street's blind fury chasing profits without any thought to the future, which is a pretty good representation (wall street added the little girl largely to try and invalidate the message for....some reason?).

I know the "bull in a China shop" theme of the statue the problem is that is not what most people think of when they see it. They see strength and vitality, the bull image just has too many ways you can spin it. My ostrich idea though, really only has one.[/quote]

The artist meant it as a tribute to the entrepreneurial American spirit, though clearly there are plenty of ways to interpret it. The little girl statue bugged be because I saw it and thought "Ok, so that's a statue of a girl utterly who's about to get gored/trampled, and that's supposed to represent feminism?"

[Fenris2020]

Appropriate flag sigils for Tolkeen:

A mouse pulling a cat's tail
A dodo bird
That utterly stupid statue of a little girl standing defiantly in front of the raging bull statue on Wall Street.

Ok, with that out of my system, if you want to create a symbol for Tolkeen, there are several things to consider:
1. Symbols of the central authority, system of government, and shared ideals. Tolkeen has a king and some kind of council, and it's all about magical stuff. National treasures, heirlooms of the monarchy, and key instruments of its power are all good fodder for a central sigil.
2. Symbols of the local area's geography and economy are good, too. Perhaps a map of the main ley lines and nexuses in the area would be good to include.
3. Lineage from pre-existing political entities.

I honestly haven't dug into Tolkeen's background enough to have given its heraldry much thought

A lot of major CS fanboyz on here I see

Tolkeen was described in detail in the same book in which it was destroyed, and its rulers and people were portrayed as hopelessly outmatched underdogs largely saved by the incompetence of C.S. leadership. It's not that I'm a fan of the C.S. (quite the contrary), but that Tolkeen's existence only seemed important as an enemy for the C.S. to vanquish.

It was done in a stupid and haphazzard fashion, I agree.
I do think Tolkeen should have lost, but it should have been done in a different manner, and without negating other world-books and sanity. It also should have cost the CS something.
Apologies for mistaking you for yet another "The CS is the AWESOME!!!" type people.

[Hotrod]

Appropriate flag sigils for Tolkeen:

A mouse pulling a cat's tail
A dodo bird
That utterly stupid statue of a little girl standing defiantly in front of the raging bull statue on Wall Street.

Ok, with that out of my system, if you want to create a symbol for Tolkeen, there are several things to consider:
1. Symbols of the central authority, system of government, and shared ideals. Tolkeen has a king and some kind of council, and it's all about magical stuff. National treasures, heirlooms of the monarchy, and key instruments of its power are all good fodder for a central sigil.
2. Symbols of the local area's geography and economy are good, too. Perhaps a map of the main ley lines and nexuses in the area would be good to include.
3. Lineage from pre-existing political entities.

I honestly haven't dug into Tolkeen's background enough to have given its heraldry much thought

A lot of major CS fanboyz on here I see

Tolkeen was described in detail in the same book in which it was destroyed, and its rulers and people were portrayed as hopelessly outmatched underdogs largely saved by the incompetence of C.S. leadership. It's not that I'm a fan of the C.S. (quite the contrary), but that Tolkeen's existence only seemed important as an enemy for the C.S. to vanquish.

It was done in a stupid and haphazzard fashion, I agree.
I do think Tolkeen should have lost, but it should have been done in a different manner, and without negating other world-books and sanity. It also should have cost the CS something.
Apologies for mistaking you for yet another "The CS is the AWESOME!!!" type people.

t

No worries. My feelings on the C.S. are complicated. In a way, I do think the C.S. is awesome, but not in the sense that I think it's got the right answers. Rather, I like how its existence and themes greatly enrich the setting and make for some thought-provoking situations, and I love the way it's developed and portrayed in the sense that Rifts as a game wouldn't really be Rifts without the Coalition. I have a lot of respect for Kevin's approach of encouraging players and GMs to play from and explore the perspective of a faction with values that are strongly reminiscent of Nazi ideology (strong-man despotic leadership, suppression of dissent and freedom of speech, blaming all problems on groups of undesireables, Nazi-esque uniforms, etc.).

Nazis in general are often used as default villains in a wide variety of fiction, and it's easy to see why, though I don't understand why we emphasize the evil of Nazis over the evil of the Japanese so much (rape of Nanking, Unit 731, systematic war crimes). It's seductively easy to look at Nazis and think of their evil as inhuman, to "other" them and think ourselves so much better, when perhaps their most-important legacy was the lesson that we all have a capacity for unspeakable evil. A corollary to that is the example of Nazis who went against the grain and saved many lives, demonstrating that even in the midst of an evil regime, we all also have a capacity for goodness, decency, and heroism (Oscar Schindler, John Rabe). When I see Nazis portrayed as faceless, inhuman enemies, that lesson takes a back seat to spectacles of violence and carnage, and I feel that we lose something important.

I respect that a lot of folks prefer not to dive too far into this and like to use the C.S. as straight-up villains and disposable fodder for the player characters' guns, swords, and magic. There are a lot of ways to approach the C.S. and Rifts in general, and I'm not going to say that one is intrinsically better than another. The development and humanization of this faction is one of my favorite aspects of Rifts. It opens the door to some fascinating moral and ethical quandries, and without it, Rifts just wouldn't be Rifts.