Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Yes, there are native languages still used on their native planets. It is just they are not listed to save space.
[even the elf and dwarf languages listed in the books would act as trade languages between elves and dwarves due to how lingistic drift is a million times faster then genetic drift. With each Elf and dwarf planet developing their own diaect of elf or dwarf.]
Eh... Linguistic Drift is also rapidly disappearing completely in the real world because of recording technology. In places like the 3G, it's probably almost nonexistent unless a society becomes totally isolated.
Sorry, went full Geography Teacher here. Correct but most cultural and linguistic anthropologists that I have read and taught about link this to international mass media rather than recording devices in and of them selves. Recording devices have been around for over a century but as recently as the 1990's linguistic drift was actually accelerating. Examples would be Spanish in Mexico vs Spain (I have a hysterical story with teachers from Spain coming to Houston to teach Mexican-American students in 1998) and Mandarin in China vs expatriate groups in the US, Australia, Vietnam. Mass media going international is what stems this tide and in many cases, including the two I cited, have actually reversed. This being said your point about drift only really happening to groups who are isolated I think would be correct. But, as we have seen in real world examples it can happen quickly, 2 or 3 generations for a dialectical change and full separate language 5 or more generations.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Warshield73 wrote:See I tend to agree with you but there is nothing in the books that corroborate it. Now I put a lot of things in Rifts in general and PW in particular that are not in the books but I am trying to get the book stuff first. In the books all we have are a few For most of the OCC's a trade language is listed as the Native tongue not as an extra the way I would expect.
Some planets seem to be monocultures (wulfen and Oni come to mind)
No on the Wolfen, at the very least. There are huge Wolfen populations that were never part of the Wolfen Empire (something like 12% of the UWW is Wolfen, and UWW space was nowhere near the Wolfen Empire).
However, Trade Three (i think? might have the number wrong) IS their native language.
I didn't say anything about where they came from I called them a monoculture. This is true both in PW and PFRPG. In PFRPG there are I think 4 or more human languages but for Wolfen there is only 1. The same is true in PW. The Wolfen are described as basically a single, mono, cultural identity that has had very little in the way of variation that I have seen. Trade 3 is there language but it is not identical to Wolfen in PFRPG.
DB 2: Phase World, Pg. 52 wrote:Trade Three: Trade Three is the wolfen language, slightly streamlined to reduce the guttural and growling elements common to the "classical" Wolfen language, but is otherwise identical. However, to make a good impression on wolfen speakers, it is necessary to emphasize the growls and whines of the original language. 50% plus any LQ. bonuses and 5% per level of experience.
The Oni are described the same with only one language and cultural identity.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Warshield73 wrote:...but others like humans and noro had nation states and probably separate cultures.
As for Trade languages just being for spacers and diplomats that seems unlikely as it specifically says that if you speak 3 or more of the languages your all but guaranteed to be able to communicate on most planets. To me this says that even planet based people tend to use them.
I'd view this as something more akin to how a lot of countries other than the US basically make everyone learn English and/or Spanish in school. They probably have a native language (depending on race, for Humans, Trade 4 IS their native tongue (if thats the right number), but they ALSO learn a Trade Language (or two) in school. As an example, most Germans learn English in their equivalent of Middle School (all of them, if i recall); but the chances of them actually having to use it, in most cases, is quite low. But they all learn it. Same for most civilized worlds, i'd guess. You learn the native language (if there even is one; keep in mind a lot of places have been founded as Colonies of space-faring nations, so they might not have an ancient local language and just use a Trade language as the local language) and then learn a Trade language or two as a routine part of your education.
First, I almost entirely agree with you on this but as I said earlier there is nothing in the book to support it. Again this is how I sort of run it but I am trying to find stuff in the book first.
Second, culturally languages disappear when they lack value in terms of economics and social status. If your kids are all watching vids and reading books in Trade 4 than your native language is in trouble. When your kids have started to make vids and write books in Trade 4 instead of your native language it is dying, This is why you see such strong language purity laws in France and why there is even some push back against the laws requiring English in schools in Germany. It takes a lot of work to maintain a culturally intact language.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Warshield73 wrote:Since there doesn't seem to be anything in the book about native languages I think this falls into the category of if you need it you need to create it for yourself.
I ended up creating a few languages for Humans from there early history that connect to Earth languages that I am tentatively titling Terran-Angla (English)
Trade 4 (or whatever #) IS English. Just with different slang and connotations due to it being space based, but the basic language, syntax, etc, is identical.
Nope. I think we can assume that the basic syntax and grammatical structure are very similar but...
DB 2: Phase World, Pg. 52 wrote:Trade Four: This language is clearly based on English/American. It has evolved enough to be different, however, with the addition of a number of technical terms, slang and foreign words (some of which are similar to other Earth languages like French, Chinese, Russian and Spanish). Normal English/American speakers automatically have Trade Four at 50% plus any LQ. bonuses and 5% per level of experience.
If a person from PW walks into Rifts North America or Heroes Unlimited U.S. people will know they are speaking a (if slightly) different language probably to the point that we could consider modern English (HU, BTS, etc.), Rifts American, and Trade 4 different dialects.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Warshield73 wrote:...and Terran-Mand (Mandarin) which would be the most common. I am basing this on the description of Trade 4 so I am thinking I might include less common languages like Terran-Russk (Russian) and maybe something like Terran-Espa or Terran-Castil (Spanish). I'm still not clear on how much of human culture and language came through with Terrans from whichever earth they came from but I always assumed it was very little but I figure by the time of the CCW most Terran languages had been subsumed by Trade 4.
Rather, (as it is implied) its far more likely that Humans came through from wherever, and then fell to complete Barbarism before regaining technology and space travel. So they probably retain precisely nothing of their previous cultures.
First where is the climb from barbarism listed. In the timeline in DB 13 Fleets it says that humans crashed but prior to this it was always stated as just a possibility. I had always viewed this as a loss of technology but not knowledge so more like what we saw with the development of Humans on Novus in Stargate Universe. We know some knowledge of old earth culture remains due to quotes like this
DB 3: Phase World SB, Description of Magnum Plasma Cartridge Revolver on Pg. 52 wrote: These guns also appeal to some romantic humans who still remember the legends of the "Old West" from a time when humans still dwelt on the mythical planet Earth.
There are a few others like this in the first 3 books but that was the easiest to find.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Warshield73 wrote:As for Trade 6 I would still like to figure out how old it is but for me I rarely use it anyway. Trade 1-5 are specific OCC skills for several OCCs but trade 6 not once so I just assume that it is largely an academic and diplomatic language.
Diplomatic, yes, to be sure, but still well-used precisely BECAUSE it is so universal.
Disagree, if this is what was intended wouldn't this be an OCC skill for someone? Anyone. Trade 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 are all listed as OCC skills for at least one OCC but Trade 6 not once.
Now if this was an early creation of the CCW, an attempt to create a CCW wide common tongue, then I would think each OCC would have two language skills, 1 is native with second being Trade 6. But, that isn't the case. Would be cool if it was though.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:As for age, if it was developed by the CCW, the best/easiest/KISS assumption is "not too much younger than the CCW itself". So, take the founding of the CCW, subtract ~30 years, and call it a day.
This does make it easier but makes no sense. Why would an organization consisting of two similar races (humans and noro) create a new language and why would any one care enough to learn some academic creation from a minor power. Which definitely describes the CCW of that time. The earliest I could see Trade 6 being created is 500 years ago after the first war.
You do bring up something that I had only barely considered, how long has any of these languages been in use? I mean humans have only been flying around for 5,000 years and the CCW is 700 so when did others start using Trade 4. It couldn't be before that as humans were still a local species fighting the AI wars. I would say Trade 4 did not change from a human language to a trade language much before 600 years ago based on the timeline in Fleets but that is pure supposition on my part.
Given the timelines we have I would say the oldest Trade 6 could be is about 400 years ago coming out of CCW expansion and the "Scramble" but I still think it is far newer maybe a century or two but I base this on nothing more than how long it takes for languages to spread IRL.