Defending against missile fire

[eliakon]

In another thread the idea of shooting a target at extended ranges with a missile was brought up. When the numbers are crunched it appears that firing a SRM missile against the sample Glitter Boy and staying out of the range of the Glitter Boy would require that the missile spend a round or more in flight.

This raised a discussion on if it was possible to be allowed to shoot at the missile more than once, or if you can only take one shot regardless of how long the missile is in flight.

Secondary to this it raises the question of if anyone other than the person who is shot at is allowed to try and shoot down the missile.

Thoughts?

(For the record I am of the opinion that you can spend your actions any way you please, and that if it takes 5 actions to get close enough to hit you, then you and anyone else who wishes may shoot at them for those 5 actions. As I do not believe that the rules have any sort of override on people requiring that you simply stand there and take fire, nor that you ignore other people shooting at your friends.(

[Alrik Vas]

I voted tacos because if it's up to our opinion it's really pointless. The rule does day one or two...a few? At GM's discretion? I think that pretty much puts it into the realm of "sure, take more than one shot" if you have a kind GM.

Seems to wrap it up to me.

[eliakon]

I voted tacos because if it's up to our opinion it's really pointless. The rule does day one or two...a few? At GM's discretion? I think that pretty much puts it into the realm of "sure, take more than one shot" if you have a kind GM.

Seems to wrap it up to me.

So what is your thought on someone else shooting a missile down? Since by the rules only the victim can do it are you saying that if you shoot at someone standing in the middle of a battery of air-defense systems that none of them will do anything while your missiles all fly in?

[Zer0 Kay]

I too voted tacos. Because I think we should take a step back.
1. Missiles are designed so that if they miss the target or go beyond their range that they self destruct, leaving the explosive inert to avoid collateral damage, especially allies.
2. Missiles are like I-beam guns in that the max range is THE MAX range. An I-Beam cant fire beyond it because when the bullet leaves the beam it looses all inertia and drops to the ground a missile on the other hand doesn't have extended range because its range IS all the fuel it has. The range given for a missile isn't because the scanner or guidance system stops working and beyond that is a guess.
3. RUE pg 364 (1st print) "Missile Range: The maximum effective range or distance a missile travels can travel before running out of fuel and crashing to the ground..."

Now with #3 it should all be a moot point but maybe your GM is like "well after the fuel is exhausted it still moves toward some because of momentum so if your lucky it will hit the target.". Well sure I guess but on the same page under the missile range heading, "There is only a 01-33% chance that a crashing missile that ran out of fuel will explode on impact..."

So maybe you have short range missiles with more fuel... Well if they use the same frame it should either cause less damage or have absolutely no guidance or they've already made short range missiles with a different frame, more explosives and fuel... They're called medium range missiles

[drewkitty ~..~]

Objectively it depends on how far away the missiles are when fired at the target(s) and the range of the weapon being fired at the missiles.

The math says....

Distances Traveled at Speeds over 3 seconds.
200 mph ( 320 kph)_______0.166 miles per 3 seconds.
300 mph ( 480 kph)_______0.25 miles per 3 seconds.
500 mph ( 800 kph)_______0.4166 miles per 3 seconds.
650 mph ( 1,040 kph)_______0.542 miles per 3 seconds.
1,000 mph ( 1,600 kph)_____0.833 miles per 3 seconds.
1,200 mph ( 1,920 kph)_____1.0 miles per 3 seconds.
1,400 mph ( 2,240 kph)_____1.166 miles per 3 seconds.
1,500 mph ( 2,400 kph)_____1.25 miles per 3 seconds.
1,600 mph ( 2,560 kph)_____1.33 miles per 3 seconds.
2,010 mph ( 3,216 kph)_____1.675 miles per 3 seconds.
3,000 mph ( 4,800 kph)_____2.5 miles per 3 seconds.
3,600 mph ( 5,760kph)_____3.0 miles per 3 seconds.
13,000 mph ( 20,800 kph)____10.733 miles per 3 seconds.

[Alrik Vas]

I voted tacos because if it's up to our opinion it's really pointless. The rule does day one or two...a few? At GM's discretion? I think that pretty much puts it into the realm of "sure, take more than one shot" if you have a kind GM.

Seems to wrap it up to me.

So what is your thought on someone else shooting a missile down? Since by the rules only the victim can do it are you saying that if you shoot at someone standing in the middle of a battery of air-defense systems that none of them will do anything while your missiles all fly in?

No.
Your narrative is kinda odd though. An air defense battery would attack multiple targets.

[eliakon]

I voted tacos because if it's up to our opinion it's really pointless. The rule does day one or two...a few? At GM's discretion? I think that pretty much puts it into the realm of "sure, take more than one shot" if you have a kind GM.

Seems to wrap it up to me.

So what is your thought on someone else shooting a missile down? Since by the rules only the victim can do it are you saying that if you shoot at someone standing in the middle of a battery of air-defense systems that none of them will do anything while your missiles all fly in?

No.
Your narrative is kinda odd though. An air defense battery would attack multiple targets.

How though?
If we are sticking to the literal wording of the book as being the only possible actions no one else is allowed to shoot down missiles....
After all by the technical rule only "the character" (being shot at) can fire once (or twice) to shoot down the missile....

Which implies that either the rule is not iron clad for all situations OR that no one else can shoot down the missile for them.

[Blue_Lion]

I voted tacos because if it's up to our opinion it's really pointless. The rule does day one or two...a few? At GM's discretion? I think that pretty much puts it into the realm of "sure, take more than one shot" if you have a kind GM.

Seems to wrap it up to me.

So what is your thought on someone else shooting a missile down? Since by the rules only the victim can do it are you saying that if you shoot at someone standing in the middle of a battery of air-defense systems that none of them will do anything while your missiles all fly in?

Where does it say only the victim. It uses the word charter in all references to shooting down the missile and being the victim was not one of the three restrictions.

[Alrik Vas]

That's not what I'm saying though. You're creating am argument I'm not making.

Air defense batteries would target multiple attackers, which means they would each get their own defense.

If multiple crew are in the same vehicle under attack, they are all the target in that case, so the rule works.

If they are all in the blast radius, they all get a defense as the rule should count them as a target of the attack from a game mechanics standpoint.

Though air units are rarely close enough to each other to be caught in the blast of an attack coming at a wingman unless a specific formation requires it.

[Blue_Lion]

I was not referring to you I was referring to eliakon making the statement the rules say only the victim can. That is not true the word victim is not used.

If you actually look at the wording in block sacrifice it says defender and roll with impact says struck, but shooting missiles only says charter. So roll with impact and block sacrifice requires that you are being hit by the missile shooting missiles does not. So I am asking where he sees it say only the victim can shoot it down as it is not in my book. And the exact wording charter can apply to any PC or NPC.

[ShadowLogan]

RUE pg364 point 2 about shooting missiles "...This means the character has only one or two melee attacks (G.M.'s discretion) to shoot at one or two missiles within the volley."

Obviously you can have more than one action to defend against missiles based on distance and actions/attacks (since this is not a fixed time frame like a melee is, ex Level 1 Juicer w/boxing has 7 actions per melee IINM, making each action 2.#-sec, but a Level 1 CS Grunt w/o Boxing has 4 actions per melee, making each action 3.#-sec). Given the typical ranges of guns though one or two melee actions seems to be about right to deal with missiles fired at/beyond this range. It is actually possible though to have a flight time that prevents reaction IMHO if the distance is short enough.

I don't see anything in the rules to prevent someone who isn't the target (crew member or automated system) from attacking a missile either should they choose to do so. Provided it makes situational sense.

[Blue_Lion]

The rule is written for simplicity because a rule that covers all ranges and flight times would be more likely to slow the game down.(but include gms right to change as he sees fit.)

[The Beast]

Objectively it depends on how far away the missiles are when fired at the target(s) and the range of the weapon being fired at the missiles.

Seconded.

[kaid]

Objectively it depends on how far away the missiles are when fired at the target(s) and the range of the weapon being fired at the missiles.

Seconded.

Generally this will likely be a single melee action to react. Most weapons range are in the 1-2k foot range so pretty limited window of time for the missile to enter range and then react to it. Still if you are using missiles to shoot missiles down or using longer ranged missiles it is a GM's call. I also tend to with missiles the launch happens you roll to hit and then the next melee action for everybody is basically a reaction phase they can choose to try to do something about the missiles or not. Missile barrages are super strong and that gives groups working to help support each other for anti missile defense a bit of a boost.

[Alrik Vas]

Blue Lion, I was responding to eliakon as well. No worries.

[eliakon]

I voted tacos because if it's up to our opinion it's really pointless. The rule does day one or two...a few? At GM's discretion? I think that pretty much puts it into the realm of "sure, take more than one shot" if you have a kind GM.

Seems to wrap it up to me.

So what is your thought on someone else shooting a missile down? Since by the rules only the victim can do it are you saying that if you shoot at someone standing in the middle of a battery of air-defense systems that none of them will do anything while your missiles all fly in?

Where does it say only the victim. It uses the word charter in all references to shooting down the missile and being the victim was not one of the three restrictions.

When it says "unless the defender/target can shoot down"
What I want to know is what you have happen for the other 10 seconds of flight?
Do you simply say that everyone has to do anything else except try to defend against the incoming fire?
Do you simply say that the missile speeds up/teleports and instantly hits?
How do you prevent someone from shooting a second, or third, or fourth time at a missile (other than simply saying "no, sorry your character is to stupid/suicidal/busy juggling idiot balls/whatever and can not deal with the threat about to kill him")

[eliakon]

I guess I should probably put what I am seeing in a visual form...

We have GB and FT our Glitter Boy and our Flying Titan. For some reason they each have 5 APM. The Flying Titan decides to fire 4 AP SRMs at the GB from two miles away
Action 1 (FT): FT fires volley
Action 1 (GB): Fires at missile, and due to speed....misses
Action 2 (Missile moves .62 miles closer and is now 1.38 miles away)
Action 2 (GB): Fires second shot at missile, misses again
Action 3 Missile moves .62 miles closer and is now .76 Miles away
Action 3 (GB): ???? he cant shoot at the missile again? Even though it is three quarters of a mile away? What else does he do for action 3, action 4 and action 5?

[Alrik Vas]

Keep shooting? Sure. It's your game. Do whatever makes sense.

[eliakon]

Keep shooting? Sure. It's your game. Do whatever makes sense.

I am asking you what you think the rules mean at that point.
Since your the one saying that the rules forbid a third shot....I am wondering what you think the rules would allow.

[Alrik Vas]

Keep shooting? Sure. It's your game. Do whatever makes sense.

I am asking you what you think the rules mean at that point.
Since your the one saying that the rules forbid a third shot....I am wondering what you think the rules would allow.

I am not the one saying the rules forbid a third shot.

It's also meaningless what I think the rules allow in this case. Ergo, tacos.

Now if we're saying, "how would I do it?", then that's different. First, the character would have to successfully detect the missiles. If they can do that, then they can defend themselves all they like before the missiles arrive so long as the actions are legal. If they were fired at maximum range, it came come out to a lot of actions, but any time spend on doing one thing takes away from another. Dodging something going that speed is hard to do when it gets close, for instance. So if you didn't shoot it down before a certain point, evasion would be possible, but more than likely pointless. Also, 15 or so seconds to cover 5 miles is a really short time. So you're in an aircraft as well. The missiles fire from behind. Now you need to make a huge turn to come about and aim properly, then you're also flying at the missiles which all of that shortens their time to target.

A ground unit has less of a problem there, as they can just turn around easily and fire...but then again, detecting missiles while you're on the ground is much more difficult than detecting them on radar while flying.

So, it comes down to distance, speed and in the end, dice rolls. I consider all that.

The rules don't break it down like that, though...we have to think for ourselves and figure it out. That's why it's rubbish and I really don't give a crap what they say.

[glitterboy2098]

RUE says "GM's discretion" after the "has one or two shots" statement, indicating that if a GM decides that players can more shots, the players can get more shots.

the section is written in such a way i suspect the assumption is that missiles be fired from a close distance, close enough they need less than one melee to hit. so if a missile is fired far enough away it will take multiple melee's to close the distance, i see nothing that would prevent the ability to fire at it over and over.

that said, most sensors available to characters have ranges of less than a mile, and even LRM's are generally small enough that you probably won't be able to see them with the naked eye until they are maybe half a mile away or closer. since even minimissiles can cover a mile or so of distance very rapidly, players may not have many shots to try anyway.

[Zer0 Kay]

Really were arguing about this? How about most of the missile being unguided should now just be rockets and being unguided should be able to be dodged no matter how many are fired. Characters are no longer dodging a swarm of Robotech missiles.

[Blue_Lion]

I voted tacos because if it's up to our opinion it's really pointless. The rule does day one or two...a few? At GM's discretion? I think that pretty much puts it into the realm of "sure, take more than one shot" if you have a kind GM.

Seems to wrap it up to me.

So what is your thought on someone else shooting a missile down? Since by the rules only the victim can do it are you saying that if you shoot at someone standing in the middle of a battery of air-defense systems that none of them will do anything while your missiles all fly in?

Where does it say only the victim. It uses the word charter in all references to shooting down the missile and being the victim was not one of the three restrictions.

When it says "unless the defender/target can shoot down"
What I want to know is what you have happen for the other 10 seconds of flight?
Do you simply say that everyone has to do anything else except try to defend against the incoming fire?
Do you simply say that the missile speeds up/teleports and instantly hits?
How do you prevent someone from shooting a second, or third, or fourth time at a missile (other than simply saying "no, sorry your character is to stupid/suicidal/busy juggling idiot balls/whatever and can not deal with the threat about to kill him")

You really need to include page numbers when asked where it says. Not just the book says X. I do not see the phase unless the defender can shoot it down. So again to me it looks you are making a claim not supported by the book, and failed to properly address the question of where does it say.

The rules are written for simplicity as I said, typically most weapons do not have range set in miles so you would not have 10 seconds of time with the weapon in your range.

[eliakon]

I voted tacos because if it's up to our opinion it's really pointless. The rule does day one or two...a few? At GM's discretion? I think that pretty much puts it into the realm of "sure, take more than one shot" if you have a kind GM.

Seems to wrap it up to me.

So what is your thought on someone else shooting a missile down? Since by the rules only the victim can do it are you saying that if you shoot at someone standing in the middle of a battery of air-defense systems that none of them will do anything while your missiles all fly in?

Where does it say only the victim. It uses the word charter in all references to shooting down the missile and being the victim was not one of the three restrictions.

When it says "unless the defender/target can shoot down"
What I want to know is what you have happen for the other 10 seconds of flight?
Do you simply say that everyone has to do anything else except try to defend against the incoming fire?
Do you simply say that the missile speeds up/teleports and instantly hits?
How do you prevent someone from shooting a second, or third, or fourth time at a missile (other than simply saying "no, sorry your character is to stupid/suicidal/busy juggling idiot balls/whatever and can not deal with the threat about to kill him")

You really need to include page numbers when asked where it says. Not just the book says X. I do not see the phase unless the defender can shoot it down. So again to me it looks you are making a claim not supported by the book, and failed to properly address the question of where does it say.

The rules are written for simplicity as I said, typically most weapons do not have range set in miles so you would not have 10 seconds of time with the weapon in your range.

page 364
Missile Strikes "as usual, a d20 is rolled to determine whether a missile hits or misses. Any roll above a four (5-20) hits unless the defender/target can dodge or shoot the missile down before it hits"
And the answer of "typically" doesn't answer the question.
By the rules, what exactly do you say to the player of the GB as what his legal actions are for action 3, 4 and 5?
Specifically and exactly what can he legally do?
Since the claim here is that "no you only get two shots ever" then how do you handle this situation? (which was the EXACT situation being discussed when the claim was raised in the other thread that this defense was illegal)

[Blue_Lion]

So you are attacked I choose to defend does that not make me a defender because I am defending some one? You are going just off the description of strike/hit. You also need to look at the description mechanic of shooting it down makes no requirement of being the target. (remember that combat describes things as being pairs of combatants do to KS personal style.)

And in cases like the GB is why they include the (GMs discretion clause.) what happens is subject to the GMs judgment. As I said the rule is for simplicity of use not reflecting specific situations. If they created a rule that required calculation all that can affect it would slow down the action of the game. So by the rules as written is up to the GM.

[sanka]

The math comes in, and the range of your gun, and the speed of the missile...
A handgun with a 1000" range could probably not. A 2000" range rifle has a chance sometimes..
And a 4000" range gun has a proper chance.
But first. do you know your being shot at, from range???
And could you hit such a small target from those distances??

[Alrik Vas]

Pretty much, sanka. The range you detect the attack at is a huge factor.

[Axelmania]

I'll allow multiple shots against the missiles as long as it takes to get from shooter to target based on speed...

Conditional upon the shooter always taking full speed-based penalties to hit said missile, and also appropriate range-based penalties on the early shots which might be out of range of your weapon or have sight difficulties.

One good trick might be to do something like a Cloud of Smoke or Fog/Mist in the expanse between missile-launcher and target. This could make it very hard to target the incoming missile but then once it comes beyond the obscurative barrier, it targets you just fine.

This would also make those smoke-creating mini/short missiles a lot more useful.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Conditional upon the shooter always taking full speed-based penalties to hit said missile,

Then you might as well just not allow it. Anything but SRMs and the slowest MRMs become game mechanically impossible to hit because of those rediculous penalties. Even the slow missiles generate 70+% miss rates.

Another symptom of Palladium's 'rules-tacked-on-to-rules-on-top-of-rules without thought to playability' policy.

[Killer Cyborg]

In another thread the idea of shooting a target at extended ranges with a missile was brought up. When the numbers are crunched it appears that firing a SRM missile against the sample Glitter Boy and staying out of the range of the Glitter Boy would require that the missile spend a round or more in flight.

This raised a discussion on if it was possible to be allowed to shoot at the missile more than once, or if you can only take one shot regardless of how long the missile is in flight.

RUE 364
The character can only shoot at ONE missile within a volley at a time. A volley of six missiles would require six separate attacks, which is impossible at the speed missiles travel. This means the character has only one or two melee attacks (GM's discretion) to shoot at one or two missiles within the volley.

This indicates that you can likely take more than one shot at a particular missile, although technically it's describing taking one shot each at multiple incoming missiles that are part of one attack.
I'd say that the fact that it's one attack at you, and you can take multiple shots at the incoming attack, and that the only stated limitation for taking even more shots is how much time before the missiles hit you, all logically adds up to being able to take multiple shots at a single oncoming missile if there is sufficient time.

Secondary to this it raises the question of if anyone other than the person who is shot at is allowed to try and shoot down the missile.

Technically, only the person being shot by the missile should be able to try to shoot the missile down as a defensive action, because the Shooting Missiles defense is a reaction that takes place instead of a Dodge, and only the person who is targeted by the strike roll can Dodge against the attack.

BUT by expanding the time-frame, the picture changes slightly, in that shooting the missiles should be possible outside of the normal defensive action rules.

Let's say that instead of a missile, you have Superman.
Instead of detonating, he's going to punch you.
In that kind of combat situation, the timing of the strike roll depends on when Superman is close enough to not only fly up to you in one attack, but also to land that punch (two attacks if it's a Power Punch).
You don't roll the strike when he takes off flying at you--you roll the strike when the punch is imminent.
As Superman flies toward you, anybody can use their attacks to shoot at him whenever their initiatives come up.
Once that strike roll is made, though, then you're the only person who can use a Defensive Action to shoot him.

It should work roughly the same for missiles, I think.
If you're firing missiles over a long enough distance, then any number of things can happen between the time the missile is fired and the time it gets close enough to the target to matter.
During that time, anybody can use their attacks as normal when their initiatives come up. They can shoot at the missile, they can attack other people, they can run or fly away, pick a lock, or whatever.
It's only when the missile is going to hit you on the missile's initiative/attack (or the attack of whomever launched it) that Defensive Action becomes the only possible response.

[Axelmania]

Conditional upon the shooter always taking full speed-based penalties to hit said missile,

Then you might as well just not allow it. Anything but SRMs and the slowest MRMs become game mechanically impossible to hit because of those rediculous penalties. Even the slow missiles generate 70+% miss rates.

Another symptom of Palladium's 'rules-tacked-on-to-rules-on-top-of-rules without thought to playability' policy.

Medium and Long range missiles will tend to be fired from so far off that you'll be able to fire a decent amount of short range missiles at them and maybe score a natural 20 though. Natural 20s are auto-hit.

Are there any powers out there which do something like halve strike penalties?

[Blue_Lion]

Conditional upon the shooter always taking full speed-based penalties to hit said missile,

Then you might as well just not allow it. Anything but SRMs and the slowest MRMs become game mechanically impossible to hit because of those rediculous penalties. Even the slow missiles generate 70+% miss rates.

Another symptom of Palladium's 'rules-tacked-on-to-rules-on-top-of-rules without thought to playability' policy.

With standard range weapons but missile combat is separate combat subsection and the bonuses and penalties do not seam to carry over.

[glitterboy2098]

Conditional upon the shooter always taking full speed-based penalties to hit said missile,

Then you might as well just not allow it. Anything but SRMs and the slowest MRMs become game mechanically impossible to hit because of those rediculous penalties. Even the slow missiles generate 70+% miss rates.

Another symptom of Palladium's 'rules-tacked-on-to-rules-on-top-of-rules without thought to playability' policy.

With standard range weapons but missile combat is separate combat subsection and the bonuses and penalties do not seam to carry over.

not sure where you get this idea, since neither the missile combat or the target movement modifiers section states this. rules as written, the modifiers apply to all ranged combat.

[taalismn]

Spray and pray(no bonuses), unless you have some sort of mechanical/sensor assistance like bionic targeting or a weapons system slaved to you that can give you heading, range, and estimated shot fall.

[Blue_Lion]

Conditional upon the shooter always taking full speed-based penalties to hit said missile,

Then you might as well just not allow it. Anything but SRMs and the slowest MRMs become game mechanically impossible to hit because of those rediculous penalties. Even the slow missiles generate 70+% miss rates.

Another symptom of Palladium's 'rules-tacked-on-to-rules-on-top-of-rules without thought to playability' policy.

With standard range weapons but missile combat is separate combat subsection and the bonuses and penalties do not seam to carry over.

not sure where you get this idea, since neither the missile combat or the target movement modifiers section states this. rules as written, the modifiers apply to all ranged combat.

Simple look at the book, Combat section-general flow-subsection hand to hand combat-subsection ranged combat-subsection missile combat.

So they do not have missile combat under ranged combat but its own subsection, Basic universal rules are reprinted in each subsection, such as how to roll to strike, natural 20 ect.

Ranged combat states on page 361 roll a d20 a roll of 8 or higher hits but the shooter may also have bonus from weapons proficiency skills and penalties from conditions.

Missile combat says roll a d20 and a roll above a four (5-20) hits unless...

So ranged combat that uses the bonus or penalties takes a modified roll 8 or higher, missiles take a roll above 4 (5-20), so missile combat is not treated as part of normal ranged combat but a type of combat unto itself. So with nothing saying that the penalties carry over to missile combat it is just people assuming they do because they have it in there head that missiles have to use range combat rules.

Basically the movement penalties are in normal ranged combat, not missile combat that uses different set of rules. Two different set of rules for two different types of combat. Without it saying that they are applied to missiles then you just assume it does, making it a GM call not RAW.

Shooting down a missile with normal ranged attack you have the penalty, shooting down a missile with a missile it never says to apply the penalty.

[Axelmania]

Simple look at the book, Combat section-general flow-subsection hand to hand combat-subsection ranged combat-subsection missile combat.

So they do not have missile combat under ranged combat but its own subsection

While the table of contents on page 6 (left column) does have 'Missile Combat' on an equal tabbing level as 'Modern Weapon Proficiencies', both are clearly underneath the bolded "Ranged Combat" header, which would encompass everything 360-365.

Also considering that missiles are shot using the Modern Weapon Proficiency of W.P. Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons this would mean that the rules of the first section (including the speed penalties to strike) would still apply to them.

The "5 or higher" is clearly a leftover thing that ought to be ignored. The rules of WP:HMDW would over-ride that statement and make it operate on "8 or higher" as usual.

I guess you could still use 5 or higher if you wanted to fire without a WP, so long as you understand that means absolutely no bonuses whatsoever and a -5 on top of that due to it being a heavy weapon (Ultimate page 360) and no called shots or aimed shots. Possibly another -3 if you shoot a volley since that's basically a missile burst.

Of course... in spite of all this, if you interpret not using a WP as not needing to take the speed penalties, this still might give you a better chance of hitting fast targets. GM could give players the option of going with whatever gives the best chances (in this case, the smallest penalty)

[Blue_Lion]

Simple look at the book, Combat section-general flow-subsection hand to hand combat-subsection ranged combat-subsection missile combat.

So they do not have missile combat under ranged combat but its own subsection

While the table of contents on page 6 (left column) does have 'Missile Combat' on an equal tabbing level as 'Modern Weapon Proficiencies', both are clearly underneath the bolded "Ranged Combat" header, which would encompass everything 360-365.

Also considering that missiles are shot using the Modern Weapon Proficiency of W.P. Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons this would mean that the rules of the first section (including the speed penalties to strike) would still apply to them.

The "5 or higher" is clearly a leftover thing that ought to be ignored. The rules of WP:HMDW would over-ride that statement and make it operate on "8 or higher" as usual.

I guess you could still use 5 or higher if you wanted to fire without a WP, so long as you understand that means absolutely no bonuses whatsoever and a -5 on top of that due to it being a heavy weapon (Ultimate page 360) and no called shots or aimed shots. Possibly another -3 if you shoot a volley since that's basically a missile burst.

Of course... in spite of all this, if you interpret not using a WP as not needing to take the speed penalties, this still might give you a better chance of hitting fast targets. GM could give players the option of going with whatever gives the best chances (in this case, the smallest penalty)

Ranged combat in table of contents being bolded and not the missile section seams more of type-o than 2 deliberate paragraphs on page 364, the bold was to denote major sections. Looking at the size of the font on the bolding at the start of the missile combat section it appears to match the same size of sub-sections and not the bolded on the parts of sections such as bonus to strike.

If anything the only thing you proved is that there are two equal subsections after the heading ranged combat and then apply the rules from the subsection weapon proficiency in missile combat with no instructions to do so.

The rules on how to strike is deliberate, and even fallowed by section on bonuses to strike so i do not think it is hold out but done was the intent. There is nothing that leads me to believe any weapon bonus or penalty apply. You are taking the penalties to strike from the subsection of weapon poficency and applying them to missiles that do not use weapon proficiency (other than the noted exception of mini missiles.). That is more of a GM call as it is not instructed to do in how to hit with missiles.

[Maddux]

Think rule lawyer is going on with this but then again look who posted this. Yeah if your close your only going to get one shot if it's say over 500ft away you could get two but really if your getting into the game this much that you need the speed of the missiles sorry think you taking it to far. We play this game to have fun not need ever little thing pointed out when some common sense would go a long way with some people. Forgot his little speed chart he post so common sense is out the window with some of the posters here good luck with your games remember not everything has to be broken down for the game to be fun.

[Axelmania]

Ranged combat in table of contents being bolded and not the missile section seams more of type-o than 2 deliberate paragraphs on page 364, the bold was to denote major sections.

The bold "Ranged Combat" is a master section which by its nature would include multiple sections or there would be no point in having a parent section.

This is obvious since both it and "Modern Weapon Proficiencies" are designated 360. "Missile Combat" has the same presentation in the table of contents as MWP so they are both subsections of Ranged Combat.

We can see similar setups on the same page, like "Skill Descriptions" being bolded with categories being non-bolded subsections on the same level. Or on the previous page with "Magic Spells" bolded and then the non-bolded same-level headings for the spell levels.

If anything the only thing you proved is that there are two equal subsections after the heading ranged combat and then apply the rules from the subsection weapon proficiency in missile combat with no instructions to do so.

The instructions to do so are that missiles also operate using a weapon proficiency, so they should follow the rules of all other weapons which have a ranged proficiency.

The rules on how to strike is deliberate, and even fallowed by section on bonuses to strike so i do not think it is hold out but done was the intent. There is nothing that leads me to believe any weapon bonus or penalty apply. You are taking the penalties to strike from the subsection of weapon poficency and applying them to missiles that do not use weapon proficiency (other than the noted exception of mini missiles.). That is more of a GM call as it is not instructed to do in how to hit with missiles.

At least we can agree that mini-missiles would definitely use the penalties.

I agree with you that short/medium/long are not explicitly under here, since these are more likely to be guided missiles, that could operate differently and ignore the penalties, which I'm fine with, since using these to shoot down volleys is a lot more expensive and a lot more rare.

[Blue_Lion]

I may have miscalled the subsection but the penalties from one subsection do not by themselves apply to a separate but equal subsection. From the very beginning I said there where different subsections. The format and bold match the difference between major combat sections such as hand to hand so most likely the non bolded list in the table of contents could be a editing mistake. There are 3 times that major universal rules get stated in combat, (how to hit natural 20.) hand to hand, weapon proficiencies, and missile combat.

Nope most missiles do not use a weapon skill, the ones that do only talk about the bonus to strike from it there is no mention to apply rules to a different subsection.

Weather or not mini-missiles use the penalties would require a GMs call as the book only says it get the +to strike from the skill no mention of penalties. By the way the rules are written the target number with mini is any roll above 4 so it is not the 8+ modified of weapon skills.

[Axelmania]

Separate but equal tier doesn't mean that 2 sections don't both pertain to a topic and stack. Also on page 6's left column "Combat Rules" bold has "Hand to Hand Combat Skills" and "Robot Combat: Basic" for example. Both apply if you are fighting in a robot, RCB is just additional rules that are added on top of the previous ones. Missile rules work the same way.

Missiles are still ranged combat, they are still weapons, they still fall under Modern Weapon Proficiencies (or at least mini-missiles do) and the appropriate "Weapon Modifiers" and still have the same penalties.

If we are going to say they don't suffer speed penalties, why stop there? Shouldn't this also mean that there's no penalties for shooting blind? Shooting at someone behind cover? Shooting beyond maximum (effective) range? Does it also mean no penalties to dodge missiles even though at Mach 3 some travel faster at higher speeds than some tank rounds?

[Blue_Lion]

Separate but equal tier doesn't mean that 2 sections don't both pertain to a topic and stack. Also on page 6's left column "Combat Rules" bold has "Hand to Hand Combat Skills" and "Robot Combat: Basic" for example. Both apply if you are fighting in a robot, RCB is just additional rules that are added on top of the previous ones. Missile rules work the same way.

Missiles are still ranged combat, they are still weapons, they still fall under Modern Weapon Proficiencies (or at least mini-missiles do) and the appropriate "Weapon Modifiers" and still have the same penalties.

If we are going to say they don't suffer speed penalties, why stop there? Shouldn't this also mean that there's no penalties for shooting blind? Shooting at someone behind cover? Shooting beyond maximum (effective) range? Does it also mean no penalties to dodge missiles even though at Mach 3 some travel faster at higher speeds than some tank rounds?

Can the go past max range can you shoot them if you cant see track the target. Missiles are not point weapons they are area weapons so they would likely not be able to shoot some one behind cover.
There is a penalty to dodge missiles it is the fact that guided missiles can not be dodged in vollies. Simple as I said there is nothing that says any of those stack with missile combat.

Quit focusing on just page six and look at the layout of how the combat section is written.
There are three sets of rules on how to strike and three times the natural 20 rule is stated. 1 hand to hand, 2 modern weapon Proficency (under range attack) 3 missile. Robot combat is just a list of what the skill gives you, and not a set of combat rules so attacks would fall under which ever of the 3 combat rules apply to what you are doing. Missiles use missile rules, melee hand to hand use those rules and guns/cannons use those rules.

[Axelmania]

If someone was hiding behind a wall you could throw/shoot an explosive over the top of it and have it travel down to land on them behind it.

I'm not just focusing on page 6, I'm also looking at the semantics of the combat section on 360. Missiles are clearly both "Ranged Combat" and "Modern Weapon". The list of which "mini-missile launchers" is a part of under W.P. Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons is not exhaustive. It covers "military class weapons" and the list is "including" which gives examples.

Another example in that list is "weapons built into combat vehicles and giant robots". This would obviously include missile launchers. I do understand why some people think it wouldn't though. Page 364 mentions Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons gives a bonus firing mini-missiles. That it doesn't explicitly include Short/Medium/Long may lead a reader to assume they are excluded, but they are not actually excluded.

Although I do understand the assumption, I don't even remember anywhere specifically saying you can't get the WP bonus to strike with a Guided or even with a Smart missile. In the case of a Smart missile if you did get it, I think it would probably apply just on the first attack and not with subsequent attacks the missile makes itself if it is dodged.

The only condition for the WP appears to be that it be "military class" and "heavy". You could possibly have a non-military class missile launcher (not all weapons are classified as military) but if mini-missile launchers are 'heavy' then any larger class of missile would also seem to be "heavy".

The only thing I could see it not covering is weapons that don't inflict mega-damage, like if you were trying to targe a missile that did something like create a smoke cloud. SDC missiles from Heroes Unlimited also wouldn't be covered.

Too much focus is being put on assumptions made on the layout of Missle Combat on 362. I get that it's a big font and there's a big impressive line next to it. However I also notice that there's no spacial break, it continues on in the left column where "Gun Terms" leaves off.

Missiles are sometimes discussed as being "launched" rather than "shot". If this were consistent I could see it as grounds to avoid "Shooting" worded rules under "Penalties" on 361. That same page talks about a "single shot" from a "grenade launcher" though, so I doubt such a distinction exists between the verbs. 363 talks about called shots hitting the mark and doing triple for armor-piercing, so it seems clear you still "shoot" a missile and use Modern Weapon terms like 'called shot' with them.

364 clearly says under 'shooting missiles' that one "can use his own missiles, if available, to shoot down a missile volley" so this resolves clearly I think that you "shoot" with a launched missile so long as you aim the launch at a target.

[Blue_Lion]

Missiles do not arc that sharply if you shoot a missile over a wall it will keep traveling, rifts does not have air burst rules but has to strike something.

Missiles may be ranged and modern but with the acceptation of mini-missiles they do not use modern weapon proficiency at all and only the skill bonus is said to apply to mimi-missiles it does not say anything about any other bonus or penalty from the proficiency section. The how to strike is in missiles and no bonus makes make it clear that they are the rules that mini-missiles use.

Mini-missiles are listed as an acceptation to the rule for getting a bonus from weapon skill. That does not prove missiles use modern weapon proficiency rule, after all they have there own rules listed separately and restating base rules.

There is no break between optional Insanity and skills does that make insanity part of skills. PG 330 the only time I see breaks is if there is less than 1/4 column left on a page between sections. So the lack of break after the first half of the first column does not prove anything.

It is not launched on page 362 but launch missiles, so not the same as launch grenade. But then again weather a missile is shot or launched is irrelevant as the missile section is rules for missiles and devices uses them.

PG 363 is restating the natural 20 rule called shots can done with missiles. Missiles are stated as always hitting the main body so they do not make called shot. But weather a missile counts as being shot is irrelevant, as missile rule apply to any device that launches missiles.

Shooting down is a term for bringing down something in the air, it does not prove that missiles are shot or that being shot makes them uses rules from modern weapon proficiency section.

If the rules from modern weapon proficiency apply to any missile would be a GM call as the book does not make it clear that the do.

[Axelmania]

If you angled it so that it used up its fuel at the top of an arc so it stopped accelerating and then let gravity take its course, maybe?

Where does it explicitly say that short/medium/long do not use a WP skill?

The top of page 6's left column clearly has different boldings for Skill Description and Insanity, I don't consider it an equal comparison to Missile Combat which is not bolded.

Semantically too, we know missiles are weapons and that they are ranged. More focus on the words than the aesthetic layout will lead to better understanding.

Restating the ability to make called shots on a natural 20 would not make sense with missiles unless you can do called shots with them. This is another case of WP Skill rules over-riding inherent rules. You cannot make a called shot unless you have a WP skill. Therefore the 'always hits the main body' is only how it would work without WPs. You can make called shots with missiles if you have WP Heavy MD Weapons, just as long as you obey the standard rules of WP called shots (single shot, no burst).

It literally says missiles can shoot, there is no ignoring this. It uses Modern WP rules because there is an applicable skill for them (heavy MD).

The skill covers "military class weapons" including "weapons built into combat vehicles and giant robots".

If you know of a way to fire a non-military-class missile-launcher then I can see the skill not applying. I think most missile launchers are military-class things though.

[Blue_Lion]

If you angled it so that it used up its fuel at the top of an arc so it stopped accelerating and then let gravity take its course, maybe?

Where does it explicitly say that short/medium/long do not use a WP skill?

The top of page 6's left column clearly has different boldings for Skill Description and Insanity, I don't consider it an equal comparison to Missile Combat which is not bolded.

Semantically too, we know missiles are weapons and that they are ranged. More focus on the words than the aesthetic layout will lead to better understanding.

Restating the ability to make called shots on a natural 20 would not make sense with missiles unless you can do called shots with them. This is another case of WP Skill rules over-riding inherent rules. You cannot make a called shot unless you have a WP skill. Therefore the 'always hits the main body' is only how it would work without WPs. You can make called shots with missiles if you have WP Heavy MD Weapons, just as long as you obey the standard rules of WP called shots (single shot, no burst).

It literally says missiles can shoot, there is no ignoring this. It uses Modern WP rules because there is an applicable skill for them (heavy MD).

The skill covers "military class weapons" including "weapons built into combat vehicles and giant robots".

If you know of a way to fire a non-military-class missile-launcher then I can see the skill not applying. I think most missile launchers are military-class things though.

I do focus on the words and the layout both you are focusing allot on what you think half of your debate is based on it is this and this so this applies, and page 6.

On the natural 20 it was stating a fact that a 20 always hits, even on x and Y, it never said you can make called shots with missiles. If you did your research you would see missiles can not make called shots at all the book clearly says they can't. PG 362 right column
"Note: All missiles always strike the main body."
So no called shots with missiles by the book. (By the way please give the page where it literally says missiles can shoot, because I do not see those words in my book.)

Missiles are not built into weapon vehicles the launcher may be but the missile is not.

Under Missile strikes it makes it clear weapon proficiency only applies a bonus to mini-missiles but has no affect on any other missile. The rules for striking using weapon proficiency is modified 8+ the rule for striking with missiles any roll above four (5-20). So it is clear from the strike rules that missiles are not using the the same set of rules as weapon proficiency. It is clear by reading the combat section there are three sets of strike rules and combat rules hand to hand, Modern weapon proficiency and missiles.

I am through because you really are not presenting any evidence that says that rue weapon proficiency rules apply to missiles and have started contradicting the text in the book.

[Axelmania]

I don't see any rules saying you can't make called shots with them, that's some kind of indirect assumption being made based on leftover statement (much like needing 4+ to hit) which gets over-ridden by WP Skill rules.

ALL ranged combat always hits the main body because you can't hit anything but the main body without a called shot, and you need a WP skill to make a called shot with a ranged weapon.

Once you get the WP skill, you can now make called shots, and you can now hit stuff besides the main body with anything you have a WP in, including mini-missiles, and any other missiles launched from military vehicles or robots with WP Heavy Mega-Damage.

Lasers and Particle Beams and rail gun shells aren't built into vehicles either, the "weapon" is what launches the ammo, not the ammo itself.

I provided evidence that Proficiency rules apply to missiles, since they can be launched from military vehicles/robots and fall under WP Heavy MD Weapons for that reason.

[Blue_Lion]

I don't see any rules saying you can't make called shots with them, that's some kind of indirect assumption being made based on leftover statement (much like needing 4+ to hit) which gets over-ridden by WP Skill rules.

ALL ranged combat always hits the main body because you can't hit anything but the main body without a called shot, and you need a WP skill to make a called shot with a ranged weapon.

Once you get the WP skill, you can now make called shots, and you can now hit stuff besides the main body with anything you have a WP in, including mini-missiles, and any other missiles launched from military vehicles or robots with WP Heavy Mega-Damage.

Lasers and Particle Beams and rail gun shells aren't built into vehicles either, the "weapon" is what launches the ammo, not the ammo itself.

I provided evidence that Proficiency rules apply to missiles, since they can be launched from military vehicles/robots and fall under WP Heavy MD Weapons for that reason.

So anything that disproves your theory is left over statement? I call shanagins.(More so that the text is not in the original rifts book so makes it hard to be left over when the way it is written is new.)

It clearly says missiles always hit the main body and missile strike is stated as being 4+. That is RAW not left over statement but the exact text in the book or RAW.

That shows it is not using the same rules as weapon proficiency so they do not apply, in addition there is no skill provides a bonus to attacks with SRM, MRM or LRM. So there is no reason to use rules written for weapon proficiency with weapons that have there own rules and for the most part use no proficiency for strike bonus.

Laser beams and bullets are not weapon systems missiles are weapon systems in of themselves.
Weapon system determines range and what skill is used for a bonus. Missiles for the most part do not use any weapon skill for bonus the launcher built in to the vehicle does not control the range that is set by the type of missile fired.


***I am through not only have you failed to provide any RAW that missiles use the rules for weapon proficiency but have resorted to saying ignore anything that disagrees with what I think as it is just left over statement.
**Saying that rules as written that do not support your stance are left over statement or should be ignored is a flawed debate tactic.

[Axelmania]

The line you're talking about was on page 41 under the "dodging guided missiles" section's note about smart missiles (things with an AI doing the aiming) it did not apply to conventional guided missiles, nor unguided ones, both of which had targets chosen by the pilot.

Somehow this got mixed up when the section was renamed 'dodging missiles' and put on page 364 of ultimate, the statement somehow ended up on 362 under "damage from missile strike". 363's "including called shots" which is entirely new, shows the intent of there being called shots with missiles.

Although the author could have meant mini-missiles only, I'll give you that, since what is explicitly included under WP Heavy MD Weapons is not super-specific.

I suppose just because it helps with military vehicle/bot weapons doesn't mean it helps with ALL of them, so it could exclude missiles if the GM wills it.

Whether you can do a called shot should be a GM judgment call based on the size of the missile versus the size of the location you're aiming at.

For huge starships, long range missiles are tiny by comparison and should have no problem hitting massive mile-long guns.

For tiny fairies, even a mini-missile is too large to try and hit anything but the main body.

RAW can be left-over statements, the 4+ to hit is clearly one of those, the 8+ rule for ranged combat over-rides it.

You could opt to revert to 4+ instead of 8+ for combat in a 60 foot area, that's how it's stated to work on page 9 of the conversion book and page 39 of the GM's Guide. Could reduce that to 30 feet established for 'piont blank' on page 19 of revised Conversion Book.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't see any rules saying you can't make called shots with them, that's some kind of indirect assumption being made based on leftover statement (much like needing 4+ to hit) which gets over-ridden by WP Skill rules.

ALL ranged combat always hits the main body because you can't hit anything but the main body without a called shot, and you need a WP skill to make a called shot with a ranged weapon.

Once you get the WP skill, you can now make called shots, and you can now hit stuff besides the main body with anything you have a WP in, including mini-missiles, and any other missiles launched from military vehicles or robots with WP Heavy Mega-Damage.

Huh...?


It sounds like you're trying to claim that the specific note that "all missiles always strike the main body" is designed to only refer to missiles fired from people who don't have the right weapon proficiency, but I don't see any basis for that claim.
It says "All missiles always strike the main body," not "Some missiles always strike the main body," nor "All missiles fired by a person without the proper weapon proficiency always strike the main body," nor anything else.

It's actually one of the clearest statements in any of the Palladium rulebooks.

Regardless, you can in fact strike something other than the main body with most weapons, without making a Called Shot.
You just need to roll a Natural 20. (RUE 362)


(For that matter, you technically CAN maked Called Shots with missiles, provided that you're making a Called Shot at the Main Body. When people--even I--claim that missiles "cannot be used to make Called Shots," we're technically incorrect, but it's so much less typing that "Missiles cannot be used to make Called Shots at any part of the target other than the Main Body.
But any way you slice it, Called Shots or not, "All missiles always strike the main body" according to the rules.)