How can a low level party deal with Mechanoids?

[Zakail]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this since Mechanoids do seem to have their own board, but I figured this was more appropriate since this is specifically dealing with them in Rifts Earth.

My GM has pitted our party of 3 level 3 characters against these beastly bastards already, and despite giving us pretty much any equipment under the Earth's sun that we could desire, I don't see much hope fighting them in any numbers greater than 2 or 3 at a time.

Our most recent session ended with us being hounded by multiple units, including 2 Wasps which are what worry me the most.

Despite being outfitted in a MK V APC, A CS Skycycle, and a prototype Super SAMAS, it just doesn't seem physically possible for us to even hit the bastards. Without even having to spoil things by looking at any sort of stat block for them, my GM let us know OOCly that these things fly at Mach 1 IN COMBAT, and top out at MACH 3. Now correct me if I'm wrong but even just at Mach 1, that puts anyone firing on them at a -15 to strike, correct?

So for weapons we're just looking at the default load outs for those 3 vehicles along with the necessary skills to use them. Any tips?

[Shark_Force]

if they were easy to fight, they wouldn't be much of a threat, now, would they?

that said, i would recommend you get creative. i doubt they engage at mach 1 when their target is not visible, for example, so i would recommend that you find yourself some cover. depending on how close they are, it may also be to your advantage to engage them using, say, a psychic forcefield deployed right in front of their face (if possible). you may also wish to discuss with your GM what exactly a targeting computer does as far as fighting fast-moving enemies.

[Alrik Vas]

Also, at the speed of sound, they aren't going to be doing any tricky maneuvering. Turning at that speed takes quite a bit and radar guided or heat seeking missiles are still a.major problem for them. Hard to shoot them down when they're screaming across the sky and their weapons point forward.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this since Mechanoids do seem to have their own board, but I figured this was more appropriate since this is specifically dealing with them in Rifts Earth.

My GM has pitted our party of 3 level 3 characters against these beastly bastards already, and despite giving us pretty much any equipment under the Earth's sun that we could desire, I don't see much hope fighting them in any numbers greater than 2 or 3 at a time.

Our most recent session ended with us being hounded by multiple units, including 2 Wasps which are what worry me the most.

Despite being outfitted in a MK V APC, A CS Skycycle, and a prototype Super SAMAS, it just doesn't seem physically possible for us to even hit the bastards. Without even having to spoil things by looking at any sort of stat block for them, my GM let us know OOCly that these things fly at Mach 1 IN COMBAT, and top out at MACH 3. Now correct me if I'm wrong but even just at Mach 1, that puts anyone firing on them at a -15 to strike, correct?

So for weapons we're just looking at the default load outs for those 3 vehicles along with the necessary skills to use them. Any tips?

Numbers.

When Kevin made Mechanoids, he was used to GMing groups 18-25 people in size. Mechanoids are more manageable when the average player group was an entire platoon in their own right.

[Leo H]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this since Mechanoids do seem to have their own board, but I figured this was more appropriate since this is specifically dealing with them in Rifts Earth.

My GM has pitted our party of 3 level 3 characters against these beastly bastards already, and despite giving us pretty much any equipment under the Earth's sun that we could desire, I don't see much hope fighting them in any numbers greater than 2 or 3 at a time.

Our most recent session ended with us being hounded by multiple units, including 2 Wasps which are what worry me the most.

Despite being outfitted in a MK V APC, A CS Skycycle, and a prototype Super SAMAS, it just doesn't seem physically possible for us to even hit the bastards. Without even having to spoil things by looking at any sort of stat block for them, my GM let us know OOCly that these things fly at Mach 1 IN COMBAT, and top out at MACH 3. Now correct me if I'm wrong but even just at Mach 1, that puts anyone firing on them at a -15 to strike, correct?

So for weapons we're just looking at the default load outs for those 3 vehicles along with the necessary skills to use them. Any tips?

Numbers.

When Kevin made Mechanoids, he was used to GMing groups 18-25 people in size. Mechanoids are more manageable when the average player group was an entire platoon in their own right.

I agree you need more players and or characters if you're going to fight them effectively. You CAN make plans with three people but that makes tactical planning difficult. Worse if one of you gets wounded or you have to retreat, you can get overwhelmed and destroyed.

[Tor]

I think the Gallifreyan said it best

[Mack]

Call for air support, a lot of it.

[Leo H]

I think the Gallifreyan said it best

Nice, very nice, I doff my hat to you sir.

[The Beast]

Any tips?

Stop being humanoid.

[dragonfett]

Don't forget that they have equal penalties to strike moving at Mach 1 if you are standing still...

Other than that, aim for the legs and wings to slow them down.

And when you get the chance, hire an army (or as many people as you can afford/convince).

[Zakail]

Don't forget that they have equal penalties to strike moving at Mach 1 if you are standing still...

Other than that, aim for the legs and wings to slow them down.

And when you get the chance, hire an army (or as many people as you can afford/convince).

Do they? I have never seen this listed anywhere in the rules, and I don't think my GM has either. While it makes a lot of sense to me, having a page I could reference when explaining that to my GM might be the life saver my group needs.

[Killer Cyborg]

If I were GMing a game where I expected low level PCs to fight mechanoids, then I'd do some combo of the following:
1. I would allow for the PCs to have plenty of firepower. If that Vagabond wants some power armor, then I'd help him get some. If that mage wants a rune sword, then I'd help him get it.
2. I'd give them some NPC support. Either a lot of low or medium powered NPCs, or a seriously heavy hitter.
3. I'd have them fight mechanoids in low enough numbers that they'd have a good chance, and of the type where they'd have a chance. Wasps are very tough. Maybe don't have the PCs fight wasps right out of the gate--have them fight the Thinmen and Runts. If they start to handle that, then move up a notch.
4. I'd allow low-level PCs of powerful classes. You want to be a Demigod or Godling? I'd consider it.

[Killer Cyborg]

With the Wasps, btw, the easiest way to negate auto-dodge is with a simo-attack.

[Zakail]

With the Wasps, btw, the easiest way to negate auto-dodge is with a simo-attack.

simo-attack? I'm guessing this means a simultaneous attack between two of our party members? That would make sense, but where are the rules for something like that? I imagine it has the players hold initiative to attack at the same time, and then the enemy only gets an auto-dodge on one of the two attacks?

EDIT: Nevermind, I did find the rule for simo-attacks. This applies to ranged combat as well though?

[Zakail]

If I were GMing a game where I expected low level PCs to fight mechanoids, then I'd do some combo of the following:
1. I would allow for the PCs to have plenty of firepower. If that Vagabond wants some power armor, then I'd help him get some. If that mage wants a rune sword, then I'd help him get it.
2. I'd give them some NPC support. Either a lot of low or medium powered NPCs, or a seriously heavy hitter.
3. I'd have them fight mechanoids in low enough numbers that they'd have a good chance, and of the type where they'd have a chance. Wasps are very tough. Maybe don't have the PCs fight wasps right out of the gate--have them fight the Thinmen and Runts. If they start to handle that, then move up a notch.
4. I'd allow low-level PCs of powerful classes. You want to be a Demigod or Godling? I'd consider it.

Yeah, our GM definitely gave us #2 there. He's taking us through the standard adventure path now, but he seems to have blended books 1 and 2 from what i can guess just from the title/cover of each. I can tell that book one is supposed to be about Archie and Hagan from the cover, and he skipped us right past dealing with them and now has us working WITH Hagan and his upgraded power suit and robot against the Mechanoids. Given the encounter we're up against I have to guess if things -really- go south we're gonna see Hagan jump in to save the day, unless my GM is feeling really abusive. I'm just trying to figure out any and every advantage we can pull out against these tough metal bastards without depending on NPCs helping.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this since Mechanoids do seem to have their own board, but I figured this was more appropriate since this is specifically dealing with them in Rifts Earth.

My GM has pitted our party of 3 level 3 characters against these beastly bastards already, and despite giving us pretty much any equipment under the Earth's sun that we could desire, I don't see much hope fighting them in any numbers greater than 2 or 3 at a time.

Our most recent session ended with us being hounded by multiple units, including 2 Wasps which are what worry me the most.

Despite being outfitted in a MK V APC, A CS Skycycle, and a prototype Super SAMAS, it just doesn't seem physically possible for us to even hit the bastards. Without even having to spoil things by looking at any sort of stat block for them, my GM let us know OOCly that these things fly at Mach 1 IN COMBAT, and top out at MACH 3. Now correct me if I'm wrong but even just at Mach 1, that puts anyone firing on them at a -15 to strike, correct?

So for weapons we're just looking at the default load outs for those 3 vehicles along with the necessary skills to use them. Any tips?

Sounds like your GM is being kinda jerky to be honest. I love challenge too but if I'm playing a guy on the ground with a rifle and my GM is rolling out the equivalent of F22s against me... that's not a fun time.

You've got air assets but they're sort of like slow moving choppers vs... the F22. The Wasps are gonna book into range, blow the hell out of you and be out of range before you can get off more than a few shots.

Still if that's what you're up against... You wade on in there. Try and get smart. Take away their advantage. Go urban or if in the wilderness Canyon fighting. Make them slow down and come down to your level. Make them come look for you. Lure them into traps and what not. If they have to slow down to a manageable speed to 'find' you then you're on more equal footing. It's not like they're moving Mach 1 back and forth over a few feet.

Stay out of the 'Open sky' when dealing with them. Make them come down to earth and hunt you down, then jump them and shoot them lots. In the face.

[Zakail]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this since Mechanoids do seem to have their own board, but I figured this was more appropriate since this is specifically dealing with them in Rifts Earth.

My GM has pitted our party of 3 level 3 characters against these beastly bastards already, and despite giving us pretty much any equipment under the Earth's sun that we could desire, I don't see much hope fighting them in any numbers greater than 2 or 3 at a time.

Our most recent session ended with us being hounded by multiple units, including 2 Wasps which are what worry me the most.

Despite being outfitted in a MK V APC, A CS Skycycle, and a prototype Super SAMAS, it just doesn't seem physically possible for us to even hit the bastards. Without even having to spoil things by looking at any sort of stat block for them, my GM let us know OOCly that these things fly at Mach 1 IN COMBAT, and top out at MACH 3. Now correct me if I'm wrong but even just at Mach 1, that puts anyone firing on them at a -15 to strike, correct?

So for weapons we're just looking at the default load outs for those 3 vehicles along with the necessary skills to use them. Any tips?

Sounds like your GM is being kinda jerky to be honest. I love challenge too but if I'm playing a guy on the ground with a rifle and my GM is rolling out the equivalent of F22s against me... that's not a fun time.

You've got air assets but they're sort of like slow moving choppers vs... the F22. The Wasps are gonna book into range, blow the hell out of you and be out of range before you can get off more than a few shots.

Still if that's what you're up against... You wade on in there. Try and get smart. Take away their advantage. Go urban or if in the wilderness Canyon fighting. Make them slow down and come down to your level. Make them come look for you. Lure them into traps and what not. If they have to slow down to a manageable speed to 'find' you then you're on more equal footing. It's not like they're moving Mach 1 back and forth over a few feet.

Stay out of the 'Open sky' when dealing with them. Make them come down to earth and hunt you down, then jump them and shoot them lots. In the face.

Yeah, sounds like a good idea. We're currently located in the dense forests near border towns outside of Shemarrian territory. We came across a medium sized mechanoid force attacking one of the larger towns and decided to help them out a bit and give them time to evacuate with a bit of a distraction. We spotted one of those large spider-like bots that looked to be acting as something of a field commander, so we bombarded the bastard from a mile out with enough missiles to vaporize it. This drew about half the force away, so hopefully that'll give those townsfolk time to get out.

As of now we've got a large set of ground forces that have no chance in catching up to us even with our slow ass APC only moving 90 mph. The issue lies with about a dozen flying bogies, including 2 wasps, that will overtake the APC. We've got the Super SAMAS and my CS Skycycle to play interference, but it seems like our best bet might be to just dip under the tree line, pop smoke and bug the **** out and hope they can't track us through the cover. I'd imagine radar wouldn't pick up even my skycycle if i was flying that low to the ground. Might take a pilot test to fly through thick tree cover though.

[Killer Cyborg]

With the Wasps, btw, the easiest way to negate auto-dodge is with a simo-attack.

simo-attack? I'm guessing this means a simultaneous attack between two of our party members? That would make sense, but where are the rules for something like that? I imagine it has the players hold initiative to attack at the same time, and then the enemy only gets an auto-dodge on one of the two attacks?

EDIT: Nevermind, I did find the rule for simo-attacks. This applies to ranged combat as well though?

There are no rules restricting the maneuver to melee, although some do interpret it that way.
There has been much discussion of that question over the years, so at one point I asked Kevin in person whether simultaneous attacks could be made in ranged combat.
His response was "why wouldn't they?"

[Killer Cyborg]

Another good standard tactic is to use cover, requiring the enemy to make Called Shots.
By my reckoning, any shield or object large enough to cover your torso counts as cover, so some of our characters use shields.

Cover works better if your enemy cannot make Aimed/Called Shots. If they're using non-pulse burst weapons or missiles, or if they're doing thing (or having things done to them) that would make their attacks Wild.

[Glistam]

Moving while firing weapons counts as shooting wild.

[Zakail]

Moving while firing weapons counts as shooting wild.

Even from the mounted weapons on something like a skycycle?

or from the weapons firing off of a mechanoid wasp?

[Alrik Vas]

Moving while shooting being a wild attack is questionable because of various rulings throughout other books. As far as there being penalties to do so, absolutely. -6 on the other hand is another issue.

The penalties for hitting while at certain speeeds do make sense, however, as technology overcomes a great deal of it in real life and in rifts. If you're shooting a rifle with open sights from a bouncing vehicle on a rough road, yeah, penalties for days.

If you're firing a weapon system with computer assisted targeting, the bonuses from weapon systems, the vehicle and whatever combat training you have can exceed the penalties entirely, letting your WP bonuses give you positive numbers to strike.

When you move, you're harder to hit, but accurate fire isn't easy there either...Unless your a sharpshooter, cyberknight or paratrooper.

[Killer Cyborg]

Moving while firing weapons counts as shooting wild.

Even from the mounted weapons on something like a skycycle?

or from the weapons firing off of a mechanoid wasp?

That has always been unclear.

[Kelorin]

There are other groups hunting and fighting the Mechanoids such as Glitterboy squads out of Free Quebec, Splugorth Kittani squads, Shemarrians, Robot Control mercenaries, Hagan and his secret bots...

Your groups should try to hook up with one of these outfits (you mentioned that your groups has hooked up with Hagan), so then you want to be leading Mechanoids in the direction of these other factions and try taking potshots from the sidelines.

[Nox Equites]

Magic has some chance if you can get the buggers close enough to cast at them.

[say652]

Lead them towards Atlantis, the Kittani should do most of the dirty work.

[Leo H]

Lead them towards Atlantis, the Kittani should do most of the dirty work.

Come to think of it, that may work if you can get them close enough to the island. As you say, the Kittani should freak and swarm them.

[Zakail]

Lead them towards Atlantis, the Kittani should do most of the dirty work.

Come to think of it, that may work if you can get them close enough to the island. As you say, the Kittani should freak and swarm them.

Well considering we've never even met the Kittani either, they might just swarm us as well.

That said I don't even know where Atlantis is located, but we're out in the woods near the Appalachian trail somewhere near Maryland.

[say652]

Head east

[eliakon]

Lead them towards Atlantis, the Kittani should do most of the dirty work.

Of course their idea of a mild response to this sort of thing is 'nuke it 'til it glows, and then shoot it in the dark' but....

[Killer Cyborg]

Lead them towards Atlantis, the Kittani should do most of the dirty work.

Of course their idea of a mild response to this sort of thing is 'nuke it 'til it glows, and then shoot it in the dark' but....

The Kittani were already on the East Coast during the mechanoid invasion, hunting mechanoids.

Also, Atlantis' response is more along the lines of "send in a bunch of troops and enslave everybody."
Not much profit in nuking.

[Tor]

With the Wasps, btw, the easiest way to negate auto-dodge is with a simo-attack.

Ectoplasm laughs at Wasps.

[dragonfett]

A psychic with Super TK and at least 280 ISP could (in theory, depending on how the GM wants to handle it). Catching a wasp with Super TK and hurling it at the ground would do 28d4 MD (1d4 per 100 lbs, and wasps weigh 1.4 tons which is 2800 lbs if it is in US tons, 3086.47 lbs in metric tons in which case the damage would go up to 30d4 MD, or 3136 lbs in imperial tons, which would mean that the damage would be 31d4 MD).

[say652]

Supers.

[Killer Cyborg]

With the Wasps, btw, the easiest way to negate auto-dodge is with a simo-attack.

Ectoplasm laughs at Wasps.

[Alrik Vas]

With the Wasps, btw, the easiest way to negate auto-dodge is with a simo-attack.

It does negate their auto-dodge. No argument there. However, I'd also like to point out that one of the easiest ways to die to a Wasp is to simo-attack it.

[say652]

A critical hit can only be critically dodged....

[dragonfett]

A critical hit can only be critically dodged....

This, of course, has the obvious flaw of relying on critical hits...

[Killer Cyborg]

With the Wasps, btw, the easiest way to negate auto-dodge is with a simo-attack.

It does negate their auto-dodge. No argument there. However, I'd also like to point out that one of the easiest ways to die to a Wasp is to simo-attack it.

Well, there IS that.

Best to do if you're Impervious TO Energy.
Or behind some good cover.

[say652]

Oddly enough Rune Weapons, that can parry energy hint hint, would equalize the playing field.
Also area effect airburst blast explosions. Grenade launchers things like that are invaluable when fighting Mechanoids.
Psionic powers of your own is incredibly helpful.

[Alrik Vas]

Well, there IS that.

Best to do if you're Impervious TO Energy.
Or behind some good cover.

Sadly, not everyone is smart, and most often, those that are lack ability. Like my players...sigh

[Leo H]

Well, there IS that.

Best to do if you're Impervious TO Energy.
Or behind some good cover.

Sadly, not everyone is smart, and most often, those that are lack ability. Like my players...sigh

I have had the opposite problem with my group. I have capable people that spend all their time arguing about what to do. Saadly they had two different ideas about how to do things. One was more proactive and it eventually caused people to quit.

[Alrik Vas]

Well, regardless, the mechanoid adventure relies on one of, or all three, of the following:

GM throws waves at players instead of a swarm.

Stealth

Allies or outside forces

[Tor]

With the Wasps, btw, the easiest way to negate auto-dodge is with a simo-attack.

Ectoplasm laughs at Wasps.

The automatic dodge that ectoplasm has explicitly even works against simultaneous attacks

[Killer Cyborg]

With the Wasps, btw, the easiest way to negate auto-dodge is with a simo-attack.

Ectoplasm laughs at Wasps.

The automatic dodge that ectoplasm has explicitly even works against simultaneous attacks

Ah. Cool.

Still, I think I'd rather be attacked by ectoplasm than by a Mechanoid Wasp.

[kaid]

Moving while firing weapons counts as shooting wild.

Even from the mounted weapons on something like a skycycle?

or from the weapons firing off of a mechanoid wasp?

That has always been unclear.

I am pretty sure the moving while firing weapons pretty specifically says it covers things like shooting while mounted/out a window of a moving vehicle but does not effect integrated weaponry/turrets and the like. One thing I would love would be some clarifying of the simultaneous attack rules. It seems really weird to me how they work when doing ranged combat as it seemingly negates most of the ebb and flow of dodging incoming fire and totally negates things like juicers in a lot of ways. They talk about juicers being a threat even to people in power armor/robot vehicles but if you can simultaneous attack to eliminate their auto dodge no juicer ever has any chance vs any borg/power armor/robot vehicle.


The simultaneous attack makes perfect sense in hand to hand combat as you see it done often in fights where both fighters give up blocking and just repeatedly punch each other in the face but it seems really weird for people just to stand perfectly still and just blaze away at each other with high powered energy weapons.

[Natasha]

Oh the simultaneous attack with guns..

[Mack]

The simultaneous attack makes perfect sense in hand to hand combat as you see it done often in fights where both fighters give up blocking and just repeatedly punch each other in the face but it seems really weird for people just to stand perfectly still and just blaze away at each other with high powered energy weapons.

I can kind of see it if both guys are betting that their armor will last longer than the other guy's. Both adopt a "war of attrition" approach and just try to take down the other first. Which also means that both will be unwilling to back off and take a defensive action because as soon as he does he gives up his attacks while the other guy continues to shoot. Both start thinking "if I break this he'll slaughter me! I have to kill him first!!!"

In real life, where you only have to hit someone once it doesn't make any sense at all. But in Rifts, where it may take a dozen shots to kill someone the dynamic can be different.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Moving while firing weapons counts as shooting wild.

Even from the mounted weapons on something like a skycycle?

or from the weapons firing off of a mechanoid wasp?

That has always been unclear.

I think this is what the weapons system skill is for. if you pass the roll to use the computer systems, you don't have penalties for firing while moving.

[Alrik Vas]

I thought you just got the +2 bonus