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Summoning Demons vs Summoning Angels
Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:26 pm
by Hotrod
I sometimes wonder why so many summoners like to bring in demons to do their work instead of angels. Angels tend to be more honorable. When you strike a bargain with one, the bargain usually doesn't involve acts of depravity or giving up fingers for them to eat. If they are cut loose in the world, they're less likely to cause major problems. They're also more inclined to be merciful and forgiving. Butterflies (the sacrifice) aren't generally as pricey or hard to come by as goats or doves. True, the circle for summoning angels has to be drawn in silver, but that's not terribly hard to come by.
Am I missing something, or do summoners just have a thing for bringing home the evulz?
Re: Summoning Demons vs Summoning Angels
Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:31 pm
by Bill
An angel seems more likely to tell a summoner no if what they want is dishonorable or evil in intent. No murder, no forbidden knowledge, no compelling others to serve. Sure a good summoner can and should employ angels to accomplish good deeds, but they aren't going to help PC murder-hobos get much done.
Re: Summoning Demons vs Summoning Angels
Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:33 pm
by say652
The spirits of light lose a bunch of power taking on a physical form.
Re: Summoning Demons vs Summoning Angels
Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:40 pm
by Library Ogre
I think it's a matter of "What will this thing fight me on?" If your motives are not really pure, the angel might fight you (battle of wills, if not battle of magic). The demon will at least want to be paid to do something unpleasant.
There's also the fact that angels are greater creatures, and thus out of the ability of control for any summoner under 4th level.
Re: Summoning Demons vs Summoning Angels
Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:42 pm
by kiralon
and forcing your will on another creature isn't really a good act to begin with.
Re: Summoning Demons vs Summoning Angels
Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:47 pm
by say652
Special reason demons always get summoned and Angels do the miracles. Big stuff.
Re: Summoning Demons vs Summoning Angels
Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 2:56 am
by Tor
Forcing your will is optional, if you're not going to do it then your level doesn't matter. Nothing much stopping a level 1 summoner from summoning a dozen angels and asking them to help in a battle.
Course they might say "I'm busy fighting a greater war, sorry" and just leave. It's unlikely they'd agree to any pacts with you unless you offered something in return, like to come help them in a quest first (or maybe afterward)
Re: Summoning Demons vs Summoning Angels
Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:40 am
by URLeader Hobbes
There is a wonderful phrase the OP must not be aware of.. "Divine Retribution"
Angels tend to have links to religions and at the least some pretty noble and honorable allies.. If one went missing for any spell of time it's really likely that his or her allies would go looking for them.
A demon or devil goes missing and a bunch of other demons and devils are fighting to fill the power void left behind.
Re: Summoning Demons vs Summoning Angels
Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:27 pm
by eliakon
URLeader Hobbes wrote:There is a wonderful phrase the OP must not be aware of.. "Divine Retribution"
Angels tend to have links to religions and at the least some pretty noble and honorable allies.. If one went missing for any spell of time it's really likely that his or her allies would go looking for them.
A demon or devil goes missing and a bunch of other demons and devils are fighting to fill the power void left behind.
Not in Palladium
the 'Angels' are just a race of semi-elemental beings that work for the greater good.
They are not explicitly linked to the gods.
That said there is the fact that simply summoning one can be a problem....since if they decide that you are not a 'good person' they may choose to eliminate the 'evil summoner' before they can cause any more harm.....
Re: Summoning Demons vs Summoning Angels
Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 7:27 pm
by Tinker Dragoon
eliakon wrote:URLeader Hobbes wrote:There is a wonderful phrase the OP must not be aware of.. "Divine Retribution"
Angels tend to have links to religions and at the least some pretty noble and honorable allies.. If one went missing for any spell of time it's really likely that his or her allies would go looking for them.
Not in Palladium
the 'Angels' are just a race of semi-elemental beings that work for the greater good.
They are not explicitly linked to the gods.
According to Dragons & Gods, while Spirits of Light operate independently of any particular pantheon, they are frequently allied with the Gods of Light and other good deities, so there is at least the possibility (however remote) of one or more gods taking interest in the plight of a summoned angel.
Of course, this doesn't explain why we don't see more summoned Wing Tips (useful for their psionic powers and shared bonus to magic saves, if nothing else) or Ki-Lin.
Maybe summoning demons and deevils is just worth more street cred among summoners.
Re: Summoning Demons vs Summoning Angels
Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 7:43 pm
by Prysus
Tor wrote:Forcing your will is optional ...
Greetings and Salutations. Actually, I'm not finding any references that it
is optional. Seems a mandatory part of Summoning from what I'm reading, but I could be missing a note somewhere (Palladium rules are known to contradict each other). If I am, please provide a book and page number.
Palladium Fantasy; page 140 wrote:Immediately upon their arrival, there is a battle of wills between the creature(s) and the Summoner.
Palladium Fantasy; page 141 wrote:As soon as the being appears, a mental battle of wills is begun.
So as soon as it appears, there's already a battle of wills under way. Nothing suggests the Summoner can willingly fail either, especially since only the summoned creature rolls. The very act of summoning via circle seems to involve mind control as a built in aspect (at least from the sections I'm reading).
The only point that allows for deals to be made (that I can see) is if the creature has already made a successful save. Of course, that means that this being managed to resist your mind control ... and even a Spirit of Light isn't probably too happy that you just tried to mind control it. If you're good, you can't summon. So at best, you might be Unprincipled (even that's questionable). So Spirits of Light are probably also less likely to be cooperative with a selfish and/or evil being who just tried to mind control them.
Anyways, that's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys to all.
Re: Summoning Demons vs Summoning Angels
Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 7:54 pm
by Prysus
Greetings and Salutations again. My apologies, kind of forgot to include this part. However, bonuses to save are based upon the act itself in relation to the alignment of the being summoned. So if the selfish or evil Summoner (you can't be good from the way it's written, and even Unprincipled is highly skeptical on this one) actually wants to do something good, then the Spirit of Light (or other good being) could actually be useful. But, usually, evil and selfish people aren't looking to do good and noble acts. They're probably more looking for evil and selfish acts (imagine that). As such, evil and selfish summons work better. Yes, it's more dangerous if it escapes, but it's more likely to stay under your control. Ask a demon to kill 20 people, and it's within their nature so it just does it. Ask a Spirit of Light to kill 1 person, and it could receive an extra roll to save with a +6 bonus (a saving throw the demon would NOT even get to roll). So I'd imagine it's as much about maintaining control as anything else. While an evil or selfish character could summon a good aligned being, their use would be far more limited due to their natures differing so much from yours. Farewell and safe journeys to all.
Re: Summoning Demons vs Summoning Angels
Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:18 pm
by kiralon
Prysus wrote:Greetings and Salutations again. My apologies, kind of forgot to include this part. However, bonuses to save are based upon the act itself in relation to the alignment of the being summoned. So if the selfish or evil Summoner (you can't be good from the way it's written, and even Unprincipled is highly skeptical on this one) actually wants to do something good, then the Spirit of Light (or other good being) could actually be useful. But, usually, evil and selfish people aren't looking to do good and noble acts. They're probably more looking for evil and selfish acts (imagine that). As such, evil and selfish summons work better. Yes, it's more dangerous if it escapes, but it's more likely to stay under your control. Ask a demon to kill 20 people, and it's within their nature so it just does it. Ask a Spirit of Light to kill 1 person, and it could receive an extra roll to save with a +6 bonus (a saving throw the demon would NOT even get to roll). So I'd imagine it's as much about maintaining control as anything else. While an evil or selfish character could summon a good aligned being, their use would be far more limited due to their natures differing so much from yours. Farewell and safe journeys to all.
If its possible for it to be under his control there is an automatic battle of wills, but if he's summoning things that are out of his control range or over his control number there is no battle of wills and there is a %1-50 chance of it staying indefinitely. (p.144)
And as summoners tend to be evil summoning angels could be dangerous as they just might hang around until the summoner leaves his circle and kill him.
Re: Summoning Demons vs Summoning Angels
Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:33 am
by Starmage21
Also, one of the reasons that it would not happen often is that angels are crazy powerful. The chance you have to enslave one via the battle of wills is miniscule at best, where as a Balrog only gets a bonus to the roll if he has the highest ME possible for Balrogs.
Re: Summoning Demons vs Summoning Angels
Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 4:43 pm
by Tinker Dragoon
Starmage21 wrote:Also, one of the reasons that it would not happen often is that angels are crazy powerful. The chance you have to enslave one via the battle of wills is miniscule at best, where as a Balrog only gets a bonus to the roll if he has the highest ME possible for Balrogs.
That's true. Minimum M.E. for most Angels/Spirits of Light is 26 (32 for the Tharsis), and all have a universal +4 saving throw bonus (+2 for Seraphs), so you're looking at a bonus of +8 to +12 depending on the angel in question. Even if the initial save fails (by some miracle), they will get to retry dozens of times.
Ki-Lin and Wing Tips also have universal save bonuses (+4 and +3 respectively), although they have lower M.E. scores, making them more viable for Summoners with high M.E.
Re: Summoning Demons vs Summoning Angels
Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 5:07 pm
by kiralon
With using the ME bonus do you use the save vs psionics, or the save vs insanity (+6 and +9 respectively at ME of 26)
Re: Summoning Demons vs Summoning Angels
Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:08 am
by Tor
Prysus wrote:I'm not finding any references that it is optional.
Seems a mandatory part of Summoning from what I'm reading, but I could be missing a note somewhere.
If I am, please provide a book and page number.
Page 144 after the level chart Notes: 2
The summoner can .. summon a .. creature at any time regardless of his experience level.
If he is too low level to control the beast
or already controls the maximum number of creatures possible for his level,
the new creature will not be under his/her control - NO battle of wills is possible!
So I guess you could interpret this as saying you need to be maxed out first to try this (ie a level 1-3 Summoner summon a free Raksasha whenever they like, but a level 4 Summoner needs to have filled their Greater Being slot before doing this) but I more get the impression you can opt to skip the battle of wills in any situation to avoid offending the thing.
You can make a pact with a summoned greater regardless or whether you win a battle of wills. If you think you're going to lose, or think they might break free easily later, it could be smart in some cases to avoid offending them.
Re: Summoning Demons vs Summoning Angels
Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:56 am
by eliakon
Okay....so to avoid trying to enslave the Angel....
You must already be mind-controlling your maximum number of beings....
I do not sense that this will make the Angel any more happy....
Re: Summoning Demons vs Summoning Angels
Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:33 am
by Prysus
Tor wrote:So I guess you could interpret this as saying you need to be maxed out first to try this (ie a level 1-3 Summoner summon a free Raksasha whenever they like, but a level 4 Summoner needs to have filled their Greater Being slot before doing this)
Greetings and Salutations. Yes, I guess people can interpret it the way it's written as well. Lacking the skill/ability to control something (what the section is discussing) is very different from not trying. Though, apparently, some people will also go under an impression not suggested in the actual text. Just for fun though, I'll put this into a type of real world scenario so people can appreciate it more.
I take a gun, aim at your heart, and pull the trigger. You are wearing a bullet proof vest. The round hits the vest and bounces off. As you turn to me I go: "Hey, it's cool. I knew you had the vest on. I knew I wouldn't kill you. I just wanted to get your attention. I want you to do me some favors." So yes, I can try to negotiate, but that doesn't change the fact I pulled the trigger (even if that lacked the ability to kill you). Now think about how likely you are to want to help. With the right deal someone might be willing to help (at least for now), but that's the relationship of the Summoner.
Farewell and safe journeys.
Re: Summoning Demons vs Summoning Angels
Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:51 pm
by Tor
eliakon wrote:Okay....so to avoid trying to enslave the Angel....
You must already be mind-controlling your maximum number of beings....
I do not sense that this will make the Angel any more happy....
If you go by that,you could simply fill your quota in a good-natured way like filling your quota by controlling a cow (Summon Animal) as a beloved pet and using it to provide milk to orphans.
Prysus wrote:Lacking the skill/ability to control something (what the section is discussing) is very different from not trying.
It says a battle of wills isn't even possible though, so they aren't even stressed out. It shows that you can summon something without having to will-battle it.