Demons, do you think they are too weak SDC/HP & AR wise?

[Thinyser]

For example: Baal-Rog AR 14, SDC is 2d4x10 (80 max, 50 avg) HP is 3d4x10+PE which is 3d6+12 (150 max, avg 95ish) So the toughest they can be is 230 (combined SDC+HP) and on average they are closer to 145. With an AR of 14.

Thats comparable to a full suit of plate and chain (superior quality adding 50 SDC) AR 15 and 150 SDC (admittedly its not natural AR (but natural AR of 14 isn't that hard to get past with some decent bonuses). Of course this 150 SDC armor would be worn by a human that would have about 50 to 100 SDC+HP combined for somewhere in the 200-250 range for total SDC+HP for armor and warrior.

The SNPS punch damage stacked with their claw damage (or a sword) can get nasty but I'm really just interested in why they seem so unable to take damage. I mean its a 12' tall greater demon for crying out loud!

It should have 2-10 times as much SDC IMO. The HP is ok but the SDC is just way too low for a greater demon.

I personally multiply the SDC by 10 so an average Baal-Rog has 500 SDC +95ish HP. And leave AR alone

[kiralon]

Mine usually come buffed with fleet feet and armour of ithan

[Reagren Wright]

Oh most definitely yes. I've stated this before. A baboon has 3D6+12 S.D.C. and 3D6+6 hit points. A 14 foot Gallu, the demon
bull (a greater demon) has 1D4x10+40 SD.C. and 3D6x2 hit points . You've got to be kidding me. A troll starts off with out
any O.C.C., physical skills, etc at 40 S.D.C. Hell a minotaur doesn't have supernatural P.S. has 2D4x10 S.D.C. So you mean to
tell me a wolf (2D6+20 S.D.C.) is just as durable a demon wolf (6D6+10 S.D.C.). The spells, A.R., supernatural P.S., don't make
the balance fair. Angels are way more powerful then demons and deevils. That's why most lesser demons and deevils I give
5 to 10 S.D.C. per level of experience and 10-20 S.D.C. per level of experience for greater. That way a natural 20 even from a
ogre doesn't just toast a low level one. I'ts also a good idea to use Hades and Dyval since they clarify some things and add
extra attacks for them as they level up.

[Thinyser]

So both commenters say you either buff them with spells of armor or up their SDC why didn't you guys vote for "Yes I think they can't take a hit like they should"?

[Reagren Wright]

No they can't take a hit. That's why they need just a little extra S.D.C. (as for Armor of Ithan, i'm not sure how they got
that spell though ). Classic example is the adventure in Rifter #11 the Shrine of Ventax. Great adventure by the way (if you
here on the boards). The writer used all the stats as he should with the deevils in the adventure. But not even using the
NPC provided I've had two campaigns in which players had no problem taking them out, so a little extra was needed. I'm not
saying demons and deevils should be as powerful as angels or elementals (oh hell no). I'm saying they should have a little more
S.D.C. that is a little greater than most animals you encounter on a random animal encounter. Yes the baal-rog's supernatural
P.S. will flatten most characters, but the 2nd level dwarf who hits him with a battle axe without rolling a natural 20 the damage
shouldn't put him into hit points. A 1st level demon shouldn't have the same S.D.C. as a 20th level demon.

[kiralon]

because that's the way the pc's generally go into the fight as well, and if it gets time it will scarf a potion of might of palladium or invis as well.
My Baalrogs don't fight nude, just like my pc's don't fight nude. The demons usually have had centuries to get all sorts of magic items, and if things are looking iffy they teleport away. Other demons can make magic scrolls as well.

[arouetta]

(but natural AR of 14 isn't that hard to get past with some decent bonuses).

Disagree. The book specifies that 5-20 hits and can be avoided by AR. I would interpret that to mean the natural dice roll is what you consider for purposes of AR, as the top number is not open-ended. Getting a natural 15 or higher is a little tough, so most hits will bounce right off.

[kiralon]

Well, even though the book does describe it that way, It describes normal armour that way as well.
(For example: Studded leather armor has an A.R. of 13, this means the attacker must roll 14 or higher to penetrate the armor and inflict damage directly to his foe's body).
funny thing is in the combat rules the description adds the bonuses to damage, but doesn't mention bonuses to strike and parry, and does specifically use the word roll.
In the combat rules the only thing that mentions bonuses is damage, and if you roll 1-4 counting bonuses you miss.
The only place that says to add your bonuses is the glossary, but it does say it so your bonuses to strike would have to be added to all strike rolls so the only difference for Natural AR is no sdc to damage.

edit: nope, missed the bonus bit under where it it mentions the dragons armour rating example, but it mentions them in an indirect way as in look at the bonuses page, so it still would have the bonuses added,
that's what you get when just quickly scanning rather than reading carefully

[Thinyser]

(but natural AR of 14 isn't that hard to get past with some decent bonuses).

Disagree. The book specifies that 5-20 hits and can be avoided by AR. I would interpret that to mean the natural dice roll is what you consider for purposes of AR, as the top number is not open-ended. Getting a natural 15 or higher is a little tough, so most hits will bounce right off.

you totally misunderstand what a natural AR is. It has nothing to do with natural die rolls.

Natural AR simply refers to the AR of a creature, as opposed to the AR of armor or a magic spell like AoI. It's clearly explained that if the strike roll (which always includes your bonuses) is over the AR it does damage to the creature if it is equal to or below the natural AR then it simply does NO damage at all to the creature.

[Tor]

natural AR of 14 isn't that hard to get past with some decent bonuses

Most people will not have decent bonuses and be able to consistently score that high. Yes, high-end opponents (or sheer numbers) can overwhelm these guys, but that's why they're not unbeatable and often play numbers games and use tactics themselves, when not fighting mundane opponents.

Keep in mind that Deevil Sub-Regents can enhance their natural AR by selecting a certain trait.

150 SDC armor would be worn by a human that would have about 50 to 100 SDC+HP combined for somewhere in the 200-250 range for total

How fast do you get either back though? Healing and repairs take time. Demon's regeneration is faster and free, so they can whittle you down pretty easily in the long run.

[Thinyser]

natural AR of 14 isn't that hard to get past with some decent bonuses

Most people will not have decent bonuses and be able to consistently score that high. Yes, high-end opponents (or sheer numbers) can overwhelm these guys, but that's why they're not unbeatable and often play numbers games and use tactics themselves, when not fighting mundane opponents.

With a +5 to strike from PP and WP bonuses you then have a 55% chance of bypassing the 14 AR. Not sure of your definition of consistently but more often than not they will hit with a pretty moderate bonus. Up that bonus to +10 and you can see that its gotten a lot more consistent.

Keep in mind that Deevil Sub-Regents can enhance their natural AR by selecting a certain trait.

Good to know, I'll have to send some against my jeridu.

150 SDC armor would be worn by a human that would have about 50 to 100 SDC+HP combined for somewhere in the 200-250 range for total

How fast do you get either back though? Healing and repairs take time. Demon's regeneration is faster and free, so they can whittle you down pretty easily in the long run.

Very good point. I was not thinking about the whittling down tactic but yes you are most certainly correct that what damage they do take heals pretty quickly and that tactic would make sense for a demon to hit run come back a few melees later and hit again.

Unfortunately because that tactic makes combat take even longer than it does normally I unconsciously avoid it. With the exception of Vampires I really don't use that tactic even though I should be using it with any creature that has a good regen rate.

[kiralon]

and the problem isn't just you getting through the Baalrogs armour rating, its getting past its parry bonus, and its parry bonus tends to make its armour irrelevant, it can turn invisible, and cast walls of fire and sit in the wall of fire and fight from there.
but not getting specific, most greater demons can turn invisible at will, teleport and regenerate, usually covet magic items and weapons and is fire resistant or impervious to fire. these combination of powers make them incredibly tough to beat (how many pc's actually carry around scrolls or pots of see invisible, as a wizard or psionicist cant cast it on others), and if they do use a scroll or pot, just teleport away and come back in a hour. repeat and rinse until all scrolls/pots are used, or just stay out of the range of the see invisible, which is about 120ft. If you are just using them as dumb meatshields they are weaker than they could be, but when used intelligently they can rip most parties apart

[Tor]

Parry bonuses never made AR irrelevant.

After all, a demon can opt to simultaneous attack to deprive you of a defensive action and still rely on its AR for protection

[kiralon]

Parry bonuses never made AR irrelevant.

After all, a demon can opt to simultaneous attack to deprive you of a defensive action and still rely on its AR for protection

only if the demon did more simultaneous attacks than normal attacks, if you are using a weapon that does x3 damage vs demons he's a lot less likely to do that, and if he has +14 to parry more than you have to strike see how often in the combat armour comes up as having stopped an attack that the parry didn't.
after having dm'd a few very high level characters the AR 18 full plate the ranger was wearing rarely got damaged, as he either parried the attack, or the things +12 strike meant that it had have rolled a 10 or higher not to be parried and went through the armour anyway. Armour is fine at low level, and mostly penetrated at high level.

and the simultaneous attack only works if the other player doesn't have 2 weapons or a weapon and shield.

[Glistam]

I think their S.D.C. and H.P. are fine. They should be encountered either very well armed and armored, or buffed, or in large numbers.

[zyanitevp]

I add quite a bit of HP and SDC to mine- my player group averages Level 12, with one player about to turn Level 15 next game- otherwise I would just say "And you slay the 3 Baal-rogs....."