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I was looking at the HtH form Hsien Hsia the other day and I noticed that it isn't an exclusive MA form. Is this an error? Because technically speaking, a Worldly Martial Artist could take it, and take the Discorporate power as his Special Martial Arts Bonus, and then wait until level four to get the Two Minds Zenjorike and go for enlightenment at that time. (The whole thing about being removed from the game is a separate thing better discussed with your GM.)

The Beast wrote:I was looking at the HtH form Hsien Hsia the other day and I noticed that it isn't an exclusive MA form. Is this an error? Because technically speaking, a Worldly Martial Artist could take it, and take the Discorporate power as his Special Martial Arts Bonus, and then wait until level four to get the Two Minds Zenjorike and go for enlightenment at that time. (The whole thing about being removed from the game is a separate thing better discussed with your GM.)

Yep, you two can remove your character from play at level four.

The Beast wrote:I was looking at the HtH form Hsien Hsia the other day and I noticed that it isn't an exclusive MA form. Is this an error?

I don't imagine why it would be.

The Beast wrote:a Worldly Martial Artist could take it, and take the Discorporate power as his Special Martial Arts Bonus, and then wait until level four to get the Two Minds Zenjorike and go for enlightenment at that time

You don't need Two Minds to be enlightened as far as I know.

As for Discorporate, any form that can select Zenjoriki at first level (like Tai Chi) can get it right away and reach enlightenment, with the option/temptation to leave forever.

Hsien Hsia is just the only form guaranteed to teach it. Presumably with other arts what you learn is sort of random or influenced by what you or your teacher are into.

Although I think it's standard to let players choose, some GMs might opt to have players make random rolls as to which mystic Zenjoriki power they develope, or limit certain selections based on exposure to concepts. You can't wheedle out of a Hsien guy getting it though.

Of course, becoming enlightened just lets you reincarnate. You'd be a 0 step refined immortal, because REFINED Enlightened Immortals know how to do Internal Alchemy and stop aging so they can't die of it.

Discorporate doesn't teach that, and there's no clear indication as to how one goes about learning Internal Alchemy and forming the Elixir so all those cool powers are pretty much GM fiat.

The Beast wrote:I was looking at the HtH form Hsien Hsia the other day and I noticed that it isn't an exclusive MA form. Is this an error? Because technically speaking, a Worldly Martial Artist could take it, and take the Discorporate power as his Special Martial Arts Bonus, and then wait until level four to get the Two Minds Zenjorike and go for enlightenment at that time. (The whole thing about being removed from the game is a separate thing better discussed with your GM.)

Hsien Hsia is a Martial Art Form not a HtH. MAFs are more skill programs, then just a single skill that rifts/HU/NB/...have HtH skills as.

No.

Nope, can't change anything with Hsien Hsia. So a WMA would not get any extra powers.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

The Beast wrote:I was looking at the HtH form Hsien Hsia the other day and I noticed that it isn't an exclusive MA form. Is this an error? Because technically speaking, a Worldly Martial Artist could take it, and take the Discorporate power as his Special Martial Arts Bonus, and then wait until level four to get the Two Minds Zenjorike and go for enlightenment at that time. (The whole thing about being removed from the game is a separate thing better discussed with your GM.)

Hsien Hsia is a Martial Art Form not a HtH. MAFs are more skill programs, then just a single skill that rifts/HU/NB/...have HtH skills as.

No.

Nope, can't change anything with Hsien Hsia. So a WMA would not get any extra powers.

I wouldn't be getting an extra power. As a WMA, I'd be taking the power earlier than the MA form provides it to you if you took it if you were a DMA.

The Beast wrote:I was looking at the HtH form Hsien Hsia the other day and I noticed that it isn't an exclusive MA form. Is this an error? Because technically speaking, a Worldly Martial Artist could take it, and take the Discorporate power as his Special Martial Arts Bonus, and then wait until level four to get the Two Minds Zenjorike and go for enlightenment at that time. (The whole thing about being removed from the game is a separate thing better discussed with your GM.)

Probably not an error, just didn't think things through based on the Worldly Martial Artist getting to learn an extra Martial Art power outside that available to a particular form's normal development of such. As has already been note though you can choose to Discorporate at level 1 if you've got it at that level and begin the journey to being an Enlightened Immortal, there aren't any other requirements (unless you thought that somehow with Two Minds you could Discorporate to become an Enlightened Immortal AND leave some of yourself behind at the same time).

While I haven't got the book handy doesn't that MA make Discorporate available at a much higher level later on? If so I could see a GM ruling he couldn't use the bonus to 'skip ahead' as it were to acquire a Martial Art power that the form already has locked in at a particular level.

Nightmask wrote:

The Beast wrote:I was looking at the HtH form Hsien Hsia the other day and I noticed that it isn't an exclusive MA form. Is this an error? Because technically speaking, a Worldly Martial Artist could take it, and take the Discorporate power as his Special Martial Arts Bonus, and then wait until level four to get the Two Minds Zenjorike and go for enlightenment at that time. (The whole thing about being removed from the game is a separate thing better discussed with your GM.)

Probably not an error, just didn't think things through based on the Worldly Martial Artist getting to learn an extra Martial Art power outside that available to a particular form's normal development of such. As has already been note though you can choose to Discorporate at level 1 if you've got it at that level and begin the journey to being an Enlightened Immortal, there aren't any other requirements (unless you thought that somehow with Two Minds you could Discorporate to become an Enlightened Immortal AND leave some of yourself behind at the same time).

While I haven't got the book handy doesn't that MA make Discorporate available at a much higher level later on? If so I could see a GM ruling he couldn't use the bonus to 'skip ahead' as it were to acquire a Martial Art power that the form already has locked in at a particular level.

Yeah, I read that on another thread here. I know it doesn't mention it in the book, but what the other poster presented his point made sense to me.

The Beast wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

The Beast wrote:I was looking at the HtH form Hsien Hsia the other day and I noticed that it isn't an exclusive MA form. Is this an error? Because technically speaking, a Worldly Martial Artist could take it, and take the Discorporate power as his Special Martial Arts Bonus, and then wait until level four to get the Two Minds Zenjorike and go for enlightenment at that time. (The whole thing about being removed from the game is a separate thing better discussed with your GM.)

Hsien Hsia is a Martial Art Form not a HtH. MAFs are more skill programs, then just a single skill that rifts/HU/NB/...have HtH skills as.

No.

Nope, can't change anything with Hsien Hsia. So a WMA would not get any extra powers.

I wouldn't be getting an extra power. As a WMA, I'd be taking the power earlier than the MA form provides it to you if you took it if you were a DMA.

That would be changing it. Which in the MAF text says can't be done with this form. That is that very simply stated in the MAF text.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

The Beast wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

The Beast wrote:I was looking at the HtH form Hsien Hsia the other day and I noticed that it isn't an exclusive MA form. Is this an error? Because technically speaking, a Worldly Martial Artist could take it, and take the Discorporate power as his Special Martial Arts Bonus, and then wait until level four to get the Two Minds Zenjorike and go for enlightenment at that time. (The whole thing about being removed from the game is a separate thing better discussed with your GM.)

Hsien Hsia is a Martial Art Form not a HtH. MAFs are more skill programs, then just a single skill that rifts/HU/NB/...have HtH skills as.

No.

Nope, can't change anything with Hsien Hsia. So a WMA would not get any extra powers.

I wouldn't be getting an extra power. As a WMA, I'd be taking the power earlier than the MA form provides it to you if you took it if you were a DMA.

That would be changing it. Which in the MAF text says can't be done with this form. That is that very simply stated in the MAF text.

It wouldn't be changing it since it's not being learned as part of the Martial Art, it no more changes that martial art than learning that extra Martial Art Power changes any other Martial Art a WMA might have, since it's not actually part of that MA but a bonus learned much like someone picking up an extra skill outside a regular package.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:can't change anything with Hsien Hsia. So a WMA would not get any extra powers.

Sure they would, it's not changing the art, it's adding to it. Zenjoriki exist independently of forms.

Heck, a dedicated could learn Hsien Hsia as a secondary, just don't let your master find out if you start using the old one again, sacrilege.

somehow with Two Minds you could Discorporate to become an Enlightened Immortal AND leave some of yourself behind at the same time

This intrigues me...

Does activating TM mean you could resist the temptation, since you couldn't permanently discorporate without all of you?

Or would using TM just prevent using Discorporate?

Or if you used it, could you permanently lose half of yourself and leave a demon behind in your body?

Adding to something is changing it.

The question to be asked in this since is "Is what you want to do different then what the text says it has to be?" If the answer is yes, in any way (small or large) then you changed it. Which that MAF's text says is not to happen with that MAF.

Tor wrote:

somehow with Two Minds you could Discorporate to become an Enlightened Immortal AND leave some of yourself behind at the same time

This intrigues me...

Does activating TM mean you could resist the temptation, since you couldn't permanently discorporate without all of you?

Or would using TM just prevent using Discorporate?

Or if you used it, could you permanently lose half of yourself and leave a demon behind in your body?

Since I'm apparently the poster being referred to, let me add that (a) I figured you'd need to have one of your Two Minds use Mind Walk before Discorporating, and that (b) the other stuff Hsien Hsia insists you master before learning to discorporate -- being able to Calm Minds that don't wanna come back, and Spirit Bursting at nefarious types who do wanna get in -- is maybe required training on the road to guaranteed success for a reason.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Adding to something is changing it.

By that logic, someone with Hsien Hsia could not select language or physical skills because those are also associated with and sometimes attached to martial art forms and would also 'change' it.

Getting a Zenjoriki from being Worldly doesn't 'change' Hsien Hsia any more than holding a shield in your left hand changes the knife in your right.

Regularguy wrote:I figured you'd need to have one of your Two Minds use Mind Walk before Discorporating

You don't have to, but I do think you raise the interesting possibility that it may operate as some kind of security.

Regularguy wrote:the other stuff Hsien Hsia insists you master before learning to discorporate -- being able to Calm Minds that don't wanna come back

I'm not entirely sure staying discorporated is due to excitement... though perhaps you can calm euphoria. That said, what benefit is calming OTHER people's minds when you are the one who is discorporating?

Perhaps Calm Minds is useful in helping the world though, and may be good for recruiting new students. Perhaps it is at this point that students can begin teaching newcomers the basics, even though they have not mastered the art far enough to verify its teachings.

Regularguy wrote:Spirit Bursting at nefarious types who do wanna get in

Not sure what you mean by this, it's not like evil types can just hitch a ride when you discorporate. Sometimes they can learn it themself... do you figure new students get spirit-bursted as a test to prevent demons from posing as students to learn the art?