Juicer detox with a long lifespan

[Subjugator]

Beings with incredibly long lifespans (e.g. Atlanteans) have longer periods they can survive as Juicers. Do they get similarly longer periods to detox before they can no longer do so?

Hm. For that matter, if Gargoyles and Brodkil can become Maxi-Killers, I'd think demigods and godlings could too. Since demigods have unlimited lifespans, why would they not want to be one (other than appearances)? I wonder if any have ever been made such. I think a godling would be horrified at the idea, since they have lifespans of what...50,000 years? It'd reduce it to a comparatively piddling 2,500 or so. I'd be so full of hate and rage if someone did that to me I'd destroy PLANETS for revenge.

It'd be a good NPC opponent though.

"News has been going around of an insane planet destroyer who comes out of hyperspace, tells the planet that they are guilty of hosting the technology that dooms him to an early grave, and proceeds to use massive nuclear bombs to express his displeasure. When done he sets up satellites that broadcast a message advising others not to host any form of Juicer technology or he will do the same to them. So far, 23 planets have been bombed into oblivion, with all life thereon demolished. The person in question has not been identified. His ship is known to be a Dominator mother ship, but it is believed he is not one, as Dominators do not usually express reasons or concern for why they are destroying a planet; they destroy for reasons all their own and do not believe explanations are necessary or worth the effort."

/Sub

[Blindscout]

Thank you, Sub. You just gave me a new metaplot for the next time my RIFTS game winds up in phase world.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Beings with incredibly long lifespans (e.g. Atlanteans) have longer periods they can survive as Juicers. Do they get similarly longer periods to detox before they can no longer do so?

Hm. For that matter, if Gargoyles and Brodkil can become Maxi-Killers, I'd think demigods and godlings could too. Since demigods have unlimited lifespans, why would they not want to be one (other than appearances)? I wonder if any have ever been made such. I think a godling would be horrified at the idea, since they have lifespans of what...50,000 years? It'd reduce it to a comparatively piddling 2,500 or so. I'd be so full of hate and rage if someone did that to me I'd destroy PLANETS for revenge.

Methinks sub has just a weee bit of a temper

[Subjugator]

Um, if someone took my 50,000 year lifespan and lopped a nice 47,500 of it off, yeah, I'd have a HELL of a temper! I'd take those years out of the hides of several species...at LEAST!

[Zamion138]

Um, if someone took my 50,000 year lifespan and lopped a nice 47,500 of it off, yeah, I'd have a HELL of a temper! I'd take those years out of the hides of several species...at LEAST!

If your serious about genoice cuase your life sucks as one person or a group cut down your life span. You got some rage issues man.

One life cut down short is no reason to end a whole line of people.

[Subjugator]

I'm not being remotely serious. I *would* take my rage out of the hide of the person or people who did it to me though.

/Sub

[Nekira Sudacne]

Um, if someone took my 50,000 year lifespan and lopped a nice 47,500 of it off, yeah, I'd have a HELL of a temper! I'd take those years out of the hides of several species...at LEAST!

If your serious about genoice cuase your life sucks as one person or a group cut down your life span. You got some rage issues man.

One life cut down short is no reason to end a whole line of people.

As he said, I knew he was joking, that's why I laughed rather than condemed.

It is still a cool idea for an insane villian. as long as it's clear it really would be a villian that needs to be stopped

[Zamion138]

I'm not being remotely serious. I *would* take my rage out of the hide of the person or people who did it to me though.

/Sub

Sorry my internet sarcasm detectors were offline aperently.
But yeah thoose responsible totaly do able with out a moral quandary

[H.P. Hovercraft]

I'd think that godlings and other true supernatural beings (unlike those paltry sub-demons) would be ineligible for any, including Maxi-Killer, juicer conversions.

However, if they were..........then, yes...........planet-wide......no, dimension-wide genocide would ensue (at least for the next couple thousand years until "Godling Last Call" finally ended the whole debacle )

...........which makes me wonder: what would a Godling Last Call be like? Massive PPE explosion, proto-divine temporal mishaps, or other such anomalies?

A simple heart attack just seems a little too trite. Have fun!

[Subjugator]

I'd think that godlings and other true supernatural beings (unlike those paltry sub-demons) would be ineligible for any, including Maxi-Killer, juicer conversions.

However, if they were..........then, yes...........planet-wide......no, dimension-wide genocide would ensue (at least for the next couple thousand years until "Godling Last Call" finally ended the whole debacle )

...........which makes me wonder: what would a Godling Last Call be like? Massive PPE explosion, proto-divine temporal mishaps, or other such anomalies?

A simple heart attack just seems a little too trite. Have fun!

Well, we know Brodkil and Gargoyles can become Maxi-Killers. Why not godlings and demigods?

/Sub

[H.P. Hovercraft]

I'd think that godlings and other true supernatural beings (unlike those paltry sub-demons) would be ineligible for any, including Maxi-Killer, juicer conversions.

However, if they were..........then, yes...........planet-wide......no, dimension-wide genocide would ensue (at least for the next couple thousand years until "Godling Last Call" finally ended the whole debacle )

...........which makes me wonder: what would a Godling Last Call be like? Massive PPE explosion, proto-divine temporal mishaps, or other such anomalies?

A simple heart attack just seems a little too trite. Have fun!

Well, we know Brodkil and Gargoyles can become Maxi-Killers. Why not godlings and demigods?

/Sub

I'm rethinking this here, and................you're right; there's really no reason a godling or demigod couldn't become a Maxi-Killer.......

It is, after all, a symbiotic organism (although whether or not it can bond with a true supernatural being or not is debatable), and as such is totally plausible.
And yeah, if "sub-demons" are fair game, the "sub-deific" should be too, so why not (shortened lifespan and galaxy-wide genocide nonwithstanding)?

There's no real reason (in canon) why this shouldn't work.

So, if you've a cool idea for a character with this, and it works for you and your crew, I say go with it and enjoy!

[keir451]

Ummm, I may be missing something but according to Juicer Uprising, pg 54 #11 Racial Limitations; "Among the species that can benefit from this augmentation are; humans, True Atlanteans (but not Tattoed men, must have less than six magic tattoos), Kittani, Kydians, Wolfen, Elves, Dwarves, Simvan, Hawrk-duhk, Hawrk-ohl, and a variety of human-like D-bees. .... Shapeshifters, major or master psionics, praticioners of magic, creatures of magic and supernatural beings cannot undergo this treatment."
So it seems to me that Gargoyles, being both creatures of magic and supernatural beings, cannot become a Bio-Wizard Juicer. This would also seem to include godlings and demi-gods as well as they are supernatural beings as well.

[Subjugator]

Ummm, I may be missing something but according to Juicer Uprising, pg 54 #11 Racial Limitations; "Among the species that can benefit from this augmentation are; humans, True Atlanteans (but not Tattoed men, must have less than six magic tattoos), Kittani, Kydians, Wolfen, Elves, Dwarves, Simvan, Hawrk-duhk, Hawrk-ohl, and a variety of human-like D-bees. .... Shapeshifters, major or master psionics, praticioners of magic, creatures of magic and supernatural beings cannot undergo this treatment."
So it seems to me that Gargoyles, being both creatures of magic and supernatural beings, cannot become a Bio-Wizard Juicer. This would also seem to include godlings and demi-gods as well as they are supernatural beings as well.

In the beginning of Juicer Uprisings (I can't find my copy) there is a section that describes the effects of the alternate forms of being a juicer, listed by the race. Gargoyles and Brodkil are noted as being able to become Maxi-Killers there. I believe it's in the first ten or so pages.

/Sub

[keir451]

Ummm, I may be missing something but according to Juicer Uprising, pg 54 #11 Racial Limitations; "Among the species that can benefit from this augmentation are; humans, True Atlanteans (but not Tattoed men, must have less than six magic tattoos), Kittani, Kydians, Wolfen, Elves, Dwarves, Simvan, Hawrk-duhk, Hawrk-ohl, and a variety of human-like D-bees. .... Shapeshifters, major or master psionics, praticioners of magic, creatures of magic and supernatural beings cannot undergo this treatment."
So it seems to me that Gargoyles, being both creatures of magic and supernatural beings, cannot become a Bio-Wizard Juicer. This would also seem to include godlings and demi-gods as well as they are supernatural beings as well.

In the beginning of Juicer Uprisings (I can't find my copy) there is a section that describes the effects of the alternate forms of being a juicer, listed by the race. Gargoyles and Brodkil are noted as being able to become Maxi-Killers there. I believe it's in the first ten or so pages.

/Sub

Interesting. I'm away from my books right now so I can't check that, but the later text does seem to contraindicatet that they can becoem Maxi-Killers. I'll check that and see if my edition is different. Ciao!
: Ok, I checked the relevant passage and it does say that only Atlantis has developed a process for Juicing Supern aturalcreatures, but then it says to refer to the section on Bio-Wizard Juicers and THAT section is where it says that Supernatural beings and creatures of magic can't be augmented. I
In the end this is going to be up to the individual GM, so I as a GM, would not allow it in my games. In part because I don't see that it provides them that much of a benefit and because I think it's too overpowered.

[Subjugator]

Ummm, I may be missing something but according to Juicer Uprising, pg 54 #11 Racial Limitations; "Among the species that can benefit from this augmentation are; humans, True Atlanteans (but not Tattoed men, must have less than six magic tattoos), Kittani, Kydians, Wolfen, Elves, Dwarves, Simvan, Hawrk-duhk, Hawrk-ohl, and a variety of human-like D-bees. .... Shapeshifters, major or master psionics, praticioners of magic, creatures of magic and supernatural beings cannot undergo this treatment."
So it seems to me that Gargoyles, being both creatures of magic and supernatural beings, cannot become a Bio-Wizard Juicer. This would also seem to include godlings and demi-gods as well as they are supernatural beings as well.

In the beginning of Juicer Uprisings (I can't find my copy) there is a section that describes the effects of the alternate forms of being a juicer, listed by the race. Gargoyles and Brodkil are noted as being able to become Maxi-Killers there. I believe it's in the first ten or so pages.

/Sub

Interesting. I'm away from my books right now so I can't check that, but the later text does seem to contraindicatet that they can becoem Maxi-Killers. I'll check that and see if my edition is different. Ciao!
: Ok, I checked the relevant passage and it does say that only Atlantis has developed a process for Juicing Supern aturalcreatures, but then it says to refer to the section on Bio-Wizard Juicers and THAT section is where it says that Supernatural beings and creatures of magic can't be augmented. I
In the end this is going to be up to the individual GM, so I as a GM, would not allow it in my games. In part because I don't see that it provides them that much of a benefit and because I think it's too overpowered.

I need to find my book, but there's a section that explicitly says they can become Maxi-Killers. I semi-remember having confirmed this with Kev, because I was joking about doing it with a Monster Brodkil.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

Here's what it says:

Gargoyles and Brodkil: Although these beings have only minor supernatural attributes, the only place where a Juicer process that works for them has been developed is Atlantis (see the Bio-wizard Juicers described elsewhere).

. . .

Only the Splugorth bio-wizards have had enough experience in these matters to develop a comparable type of augmentation for these beings.

Here's what it says about supernatural beings:

Supernatural Beings: So-called demons, vampires and other supernatural beings (and most alien life forms) cannot become Juicers! Such beings are too alien for any bio-comp to work on them.

Now, if you as a GM want to cry BS and say it doesn't appear in your game, that's up to you, but the canon is very clear on the subject. General is overruled by specific. If something says, "People cannot jump six feet in the air", and later says, "John Doe, incredibly, can leap six feet in the air", it means that John Doe is specifically exceptional, but that as a rule, people cannot jump six feet in the air.

/Sub

[keir451]

Here's what it says:

Gargoyles and Brodkil: Although these beings have only minor supernatural attributes, the only place where a Juicer process that works for them has been developed is Atlantis (see the Bio-wizard Juicers described elsewhere).

. . .

Only the Splugorth bio-wizards have had enough experience in these matters to develop a comparable type of augmentation for these beings.

Here's what it says about supernatural beings:

Supernatural Beings: So-called demons, vampires and other supernatural beings (and most alien life forms) cannot become Juicers! Such beings are too alien for any bio-comp to work on them.

Now, if you as a GM want to cry BS and say it doesn't appear in your game, that's up to you, but the canon is very clear on the subject. General is overruled by specific. If something says, "People cannot jump six feet in the air", and later says, "John Doe, incredibly, can leap six feet in the air", it means that John Doe is specifically exceptional, but that as a rule, people cannot jump six feet in the air.

/Sub

Exactly. yes in the opening section it does say that, but it's being GENERAL about it. Then the OCC description states, specifically, that supernatural beings CANNOT become Bio-Juicers. That, to me, overrules the frist section. Why? Because it's very specific about what creatures can and cannot become Bio-Juicers. Now if you want to say that the Splugorth Bio-Wizards have found a way around that, that's fine, but according to the OCC description supernatural beings cannot become Maxi-Killers. So, since Gargoyles are Supernatural beings, they cannot become Maxi-killers.
Now I do make a distinction between My Game and the RAW (usually ). In this case I'm trying to seperate the two.
The book says two things; 1) That Juicer Uprisings - page 16" Gargoyles and Brodkil: Although these beings have only minor supernatural attributes, the only place where a Juicer process that works for them has been developed is Atlantis (see the Bio-wizard Juicers described elsewhere).. The underlined section tells us to refer to the OCC description, which is where we see what races and creatures can become Maxi-killers, gargoyles are NOT listed in the relevant section, so it seems that the OCC is not open to Gargoyles.2) The OCC description states: Juicer Uprising, pg 54 #11 Racial Limitations; "Among the species that can benefit from this augmentation are; humans, True Atlanteans (but not Tattoed men, must have less than six magic tattoos), Kittani, Kydians, Wolfen, Elves, Dwarves, Simvan, Hawrk-duhk, Hawrk-ohl, and a variety of human-like D-bees. .... Shapeshifters, major or master psionics, praticioners of magic, creatures of magic and supernatural beings cannot undergo this treatment."
So because that section is specific,(for the purpose of this discussion) I have no choice but to say that the book says that Gargoyles (who are both Supernatural and Magical creatures as well as Psionics) cannot become Maxi-Killers.

[Subjugator]

Exactly. yes in the opening section it does say that, but it's being GENERAL about it. Then the OCC description states, specifically, that supernatural beings CANNOT become Bio-Juicers. That, to me, overrules the frist section. Why? Because it's very specific about what creatures can and cannot become Bio-Juicers. Now if you want to say that the Splugorth Bio-Wizards have found a way around that, that's fine, but according to the OCC description supernatural beings cannot become Maxi-Killers. So, since Gargoyles are Supernatural beings, they cannot become Maxi-killers.

[/quote]

While it says that supernatural beings cannot become juicers, it is specific in that Gargoyles and Brodkil *CAN* become juicers in Atlantis, using the Bio-Juicer process. This sentence directly establishes it as such:

...a Juicer process that works for them has been developed is Atlantis...

It also keeps them explicitly distinct from other supernatural beings in the context of the book by listing them separately from the rest of all other supernatural beings. Since they are not included with supernatural beings in the beginning portion of the book, it is clear that they are distinct from most usage of the term 'supernatural beings' in the rest of the book as well. Context is important.

You're also ignoring this portion of the text:

Juicer Uprisings - Page 53]For the most part, supernatural, mega-damage beings and creatures of magic cannot make use of the Juicer process. However, the bio-wizards have combined their knowledge of symbiotes and Juicer augmentation to create their own super-juicer that can work on a wider range of nonhumans.

They would not mention supernatural there unless the next sentence was going to be relevant to it as well, and the next sentence notes that the bio-wizard juicer is an exception to the rule against the items mentioned in the preceding sentence. Given that gargoyles and brodkil are explicitly noted as having a juicer process that works for them

So they say:

This is USUALLY a rule preventing these beings from becoming juicers...
...HOWEVER, the bio-wizard juicer process is an exception to that rule.

Now I do make a distinction between My Game and the RAW (usually ). In this case I'm trying to seperate the two.
The book says two things; 1) That Juicer Uprisings - page 16" Gargoyles and Brodkil: Although these beings have only minor supernatural attributes, the only place where a Juicer process that works for them has been developed is Atlantis (see the Bio-wizard Juicers described elsewhere).. The underlined section tells us to refer to the OCC description

Actually, no. It refers to the OCC itself.

which is where we see what races and creatures can become Maxi-killers, gargoyles are NOT listed in the relevant section, so it seems that the OCC is not open to Gargoyles.

Wrong. It doesn't say ONLY these creatures can become Maxi-Killers. It says, "Among the species that can benefit from this augmentation are...", and not, "The species that can benefit from this augmentation are...". It is specifically NOT an exclusive list. Given that it explicitly states that gargoyles and brodkil have a method that will work on them and directs you to this particular process, that non-exclusive list is exemplary, but not exhaustive.

2) The OCC description states: Juicer Uprising, pg 54 #11 Racial Limitations; "Among the species that can benefit from this augmentation are; humans, True Atlanteans (but not Tattoed men, must have less than six magic tattoos), Kittani, Kydians, Wolfen, Elves, Dwarves, Simvan, Hawrk-duhk, Hawrk-ohl, and a variety of human-like D-bees. .... Shapeshifters, major or master psionics, praticioners of magic, creatures of magic and supernatural beings cannot undergo this treatment."

...and that same OCC description notes supernatural beings as being able to be converted.

So because that section is [b]specific,(for the purpose of this discussion) I have no choice but to say that the book says that Gargoyles (who are both Supernatural and Magical creatures as well as Psionics) cannot become Maxi-Killers.

It is NOT specific though.

"AMONG the races that are..." is not, "The ONLY races that are..."

The supernatural limitation is noted as having exceptions when it says, "This is usually a rule, HOWEVER..."

...and they are EXPLICITLY noted as being able to be Bio-Wizard juicers in the beginning of the book...

/Sub

[cornholioprime]

Ummm, I may be missing something but according to Juicer Uprising, pg 54 #11 Racial Limitations; "Among the species that can benefit from this augmentation are; humans, True Atlanteans (but not Tattoed men, must have less than six magic tattoos), Kittani, Kydians, Wolfen, Elves, Dwarves, Simvan, Hawrk-duhk, Hawrk-ohl, and a variety of human-like D-bees. .... Shapeshifters, major or master psionics, praticioners of magic, creatures of magic and supernatural beings cannot undergo this treatment."
So it seems to me that Gargoyles, being both creatures of magic and supernatural beings, cannot become a Bio-Wizard Juicer. This would also seem to include godlings and demi-gods as well as they are supernatural beings as well.

Only SOME 'breeds' of Gargoyle qualify as Creatures Of Magic (no Gargoyle type is a True Supernatural Creature), and therefore most of them potentially qualify for Juicer enhancements.

EDIT: Gargoyles (most types) as well as Brodkil have been established since the beginning of the Books as being "just below the wire" for being considered either True Supernatural Creatures or Creatures Of Magic and as such, have been eligible for various genetic (physical) as well as magical enhancements.

[keir451]

The whole problem stems from two conflicting sentences; One sentence states that Atlantis has means of converting Sn creatures, but refers you to the OCC description for further details.
Section #11 of the OCC description states that only non-supernatural, non-magical and non-master/major psionicists and humam-like beings can benefit from the bio-wizard conversion process. It also gives a limited list of creatures/beings that are "Among the species that can benefit from this augmentation...". IF Gargolyes were "among the species" then they should have been mentioned specicifically in the OCC description instead of just in a short sentence in the beginning of the book.
So it seems pretty clear, to me, that gargoyles as SN, magical, as well as psionic creatures (equivalent to a 6th level psionicist) cannot benefit from the process.
If the process does work on gargoyles then one would think that they would have been specifically mentioned as being "among the races", but they are not. So it's because of that omission I conclude that they cannot benefit from the conversion, in spite of what the previous sentence said. Perhaps it should have read like this: "Among the many species besides Gargoyles..." that certainly would have made it very clear that Gargoyles are "Among the species".

[Nightmask]

The whole problem stems from two conflicting sentences; One sentence states that Atlantis has means of converting Sn creatures, but refers you to the OCC description for further details.
Section #11 of the OCC description states that only non-supernatural, non-magical and non-master/major psionicists and humam-like beings can benefit from the bio-wizard conversion process. It also gives a limited list of creatures/beings that are "Among the species that can benefit from this augmentation...". IF Gargolyes were "among the species" then they should have been mentioned specicifically in the OCC description instead of just in a short sentence in the beginning of the book.
So it seems pretty clear, to me, that gargoyles as SN, magical, as well as psionic creatures (equivalent to a 6th level psionicist) cannot benefit from the process.
If the process does work on gargoyles then one would think that they would have been specifically mentioned as being "among the races", but they are not. So it's because of that omission I conclude that they cannot benefit from the conversion, in spite of what the previous sentence said. Perhaps it should have read like this: "Among the many species besides Gargoyles..." that certainly would have made it very clear that Gargoyles are "Among the species".

If some gargoyles are considered Supernatural creatures and some aren't then you couldn't have an inclusive statement that all gargoyles could be converted because they all couldn't be, correct? So only the lesser versions that aren't considered to rate as supernatural qualify.

[Subjugator]

FWIW, Triax implies very strongly they are NOT supernatural beings.

Enemies: Generally speaking, gargoyles and their kin do not get along with most true supernatural beings.

Emphasis is mine.

The notation of 'true' implies that they are NOT true supernatural beings, which is reinforced by the fact that they are divided from supernatural beings in the Juicer Uprising.

Now, let's check Mindwerks.

MOM implants and cybernetic systems will NOT work on most supernatural beings or creatures of magic. Remember, just because a D-bee may look demonic or monstrous does not mean the creature is a supernatural demon.

. . .

Most gargoyles and all gurgoyles possess comparatively few supernatural abilities (actually, even less than the brodkil), and are considered by most beings to be sub-demons - little more than monstrous D-bees. Thus, they too can receive MOM implants. The only exceptions are gargoylites and gargoyle mages who are both creatures of magic, and gargoyle lords, because the lord can transform into living stone.

A good rule of thumb is that any creature that can perform any type of metamorphosis, change size, or other feats of shape changing, can regenerate lost limbs, possess natural magic powers, or is clearly a supernatural or magic creature, then that being is ineligible for MOM implants.

Gargoyles are not supernatural beings. Gargoylites, Gargoyle Mages, and Gargoyle Lords, are.

/Sub

[keir451]

FWIW, Triax implies very strongly they are NOT supernatural beings.

Enemies: Generally speaking, gargoyles and their kin do not get along with most true supernatural beings.

Emphasis is mine.

The notation of 'true' implies that they are NOT true supernatural beings, which is reinforced by the fact that they are divided from supernatural beings in the Juicer Uprising.

Now, let's check Mindwerks.

MOM implants and cybernetic systems will NOT work on most supernatural beings or creatures of magic. Remember, just because a D-bee may look demonic or monstrous does not mean the creature is a supernatural demon.

. . .

Most gargoyles and all gurgoyles possess comparatively few supernatural abilities (actually, even less than the brodkil), and are considered by most beings to be sub-demons - little more than monstrous D-bees. Thus, they too can receive MOM implants. The only exceptions are gargoylites and gargoyle mages who are both creatures of magic, and gargoyle lords, because the lord can transform into living stone.

A good rule of thumb is that any creature that can perform any type of metamorphosis, change size, or other feats of shape changing, can regenerate lost limbs, possess natural magic powers, or is clearly a supernatural or magic creature, then that being is ineligible for MOM implants.

Gargoyles are not supernatural beings. Gargoylites, Gargoyle Mages, and Gargoyle Lords, are.

/Sub

OK I see what you mean, I'd forgotten that bit of info and just generally lumped Gargoyles in w/most supernatural beings. Now what of their psionic abilities? They've too many to be considered minor psionics and they are stated as being "equal to a 6th level psionic". The book doesn't state whether they are actually a major or master psionic but usually most beings with more than two psionic abilities have been classified/considered as either major or master psionics, so if they are one of those then wouldn't that eliminate them from being able to go through the process?

[Subjugator]

It doesn't say major or master psionics cannot become Maxi-Killers. I've never noticed any restriction preventing any psionic from becoming a juicer.

[keir451]

It doesn't say major or master psionics cannot become Maxi-Killers. I've never noticed any restriction preventing any psionic from becoming a juicer.

Actually it does state it, in the same section on racial limitations. I've underlined the relevant section;

Juicer Uprising, pg 54 #11 Racial Limitations; "Among the species that can benefit from this augmentation are; humans, True Atlanteans (but not Tattoed men, must have less than six magic tattoos), Kittani, Kydians, Wolfen, Elves, Dwarves, Simvan, Hawrk-duhk, Hawrk-ohl, and a variety of human-like D-bees. .... Shapeshifters, major or master psionics, praticioners of magic, creatures of magic and supernatural beings cannot undergo this treatment."

While there is nothing specifically mentioned (that I could find) barring a psionic from undergoing the regular Juicer conversion process, I'd figure that, much like getting cybernetic implantation, they'd probably prefer not to. If they did undergo the process I'd treat it much like cybernetic implantation, loss of psionic abilities. This is specifically mentioned as happening to Dog Boys that undergo the treatment.

[Subjugator]

It doesn't say major or master psionics cannot become Maxi-Killers. I've never noticed any restriction preventing any psionic from becoming a juicer.

Actually it does state it, in the same section on racial limitations. I've underlined the relevant section;

Juicer Uprising, pg 54 #11 Racial Limitations; "Among the species that can benefit from this augmentation are; humans, True Atlanteans (but not Tattoed men, must have less than six magic tattoos), Kittani, Kydians, Wolfen, Elves, Dwarves, Simvan, Hawrk-duhk, Hawrk-ohl, and a variety of human-like D-bees. .... Shapeshifters, major or master psionics, praticioners of magic, creatures of magic and supernatural beings cannot undergo this treatment."

While there is nothing specifically mentioned (that I could find) barring a psionic from undergoing the regular Juicer conversion process, I'd figure that, much like getting cybernetic implantation, they'd probably prefer not to. If they did undergo the process I'd treat it much like cybernetic implantation, loss of psionic abilities. This is specifically mentioned as happening to Dog Boys that undergo the treatment.

I didn't see that, and I'd make them at least drop back to minor.

/Sub

[keir451]

It doesn't say major or master psionics cannot become Maxi-Killers. I've never noticed any restriction preventing any psionic from becoming a juicer.

Actually it does state it, in the same section on racial limitations. I've underlined the relevant section;

Juicer Uprising, pg 54 #11 Racial Limitations; "Among the species that can benefit from this augmentation are; humans, True Atlanteans (but not Tattoed men, must have less than six magic tattoos), Kittani, Kydians, Wolfen, Elves, Dwarves, Simvan, Hawrk-duhk, Hawrk-ohl, and a variety of human-like D-bees. .... Shapeshifters, major or master psionics, praticioners of magic, creatures of magic and supernatural beings cannot undergo this treatment."

While there is nothing specifically mentioned (that I could find) barring a psionic from undergoing the regular Juicer conversion process, I'd figure that, much like getting cybernetic implantation, they'd probably prefer not to. If they did undergo the process I'd treat it much like cybernetic implantation, loss of psionic abilities. This is specifically mentioned as happening to Dog Boys that undergo the treatment.

I didn't see that, and I'd make them at least drop back to minor.

/Sub

They get 1d6x10 ISP, meditation, mind block, presence sense, sense magic, telepathy, resist hunger, resist fatigue, and resist thirst. That puts them well on par with most master psionic classes even if none of the powers are offensively geared, but lacking any further clarification on that subjec twe can only go with "Gm's call". But to me having them "drop back to minor" seems a little cheap, but since I would rule that they are master level and use the psionics as an excuse to bar them from becoming Maxi-Killers it's all fair! Since they're not specified as being either major or master you could probably just make them lose all their psionic abilities as a trade off for becoming a Maxi-Killer, if you want.

[Subjugator]

They get 1d6x10 ISP, meditation, mind block, presence sense, sense magic, telepathy, resist hunger, resist fatigue, and resist thirst. That puts them well on par with most master psionic classes even if none of the powers are offensively geared, but lacking any further clarification on that subjec twe can only go with "Gm's call". But to me having them "drop back to minor" seems a little cheap, but since I would rule that they are master level and use the psionics as an excuse to bar them from becoming Maxi-Killers it's all fair! Since they're not specified as being either major or master you could probably just make them lose all their psionic abilities as a trade off for becoming a Maxi-Killer, if you want.

Um. What master psionic classes are they on par with?

/Sub

[Subjugator]

You can house rule it if you like, but the rules are specific.

[keir451]

They get 1d6x10 ISP, meditation, mind block, presence sense, sense magic, telepathy, resist hunger, resist fatigue, and resist thirst. That puts them well on par with most master psionic classes even if none of the powers are offensively geared, but lacking any further clarification on that subjec twe can only go with "Gm's call". But to me having them "drop back to minor" seems a little cheap, but since I would rule that they are master level and use the psionics as an excuse to bar them from becoming Maxi-Killers it's all fair! Since they're not specified as being either major or master you could probably just make them lose all their psionic abilities as a trade off for becoming a Maxi-Killer, if you want.

Um. What master psionic classes are they on par with?

/Sub

Dog Boys, Bursters, Psi Stalkers, and perhaps a few others I can't actively recall at the moment. My comparison is based upon the number of abilities not the types of abilites. Double checking the rules for Major psionics puts them firmly in that category's range as they have a total of eight psionic abilites, though the deviation from the standards for Major psionics (selecting eight from one category or six from two or three) can probably be chalked up to racial charactersitics.

[Blue_Lion]

You can house rule it if you like, but the rules are specific.

umm it looks like the rules are kinda poorly edited to me. But that is nothing new, I can see how the way the wrote it up whould cause some confusion. But again what happens is up to the group and gm to decide.

[Blue_Lion]

It doesn't say major or master psionics cannot become Maxi-Killers. I've never noticed any restriction preventing any psionic from becoming a juicer.

Actually it does state it, in the same section on racial limitations. I've underlined the relevant section;

Juicer Uprising, pg 54 #11 Racial Limitations; "Among the species that can benefit from this augmentation are; humans, True Atlanteans (but not Tattoed men, must have less than six magic tattoos), Kittani, Kydians, Wolfen, Elves, Dwarves, Simvan, Hawrk-duhk, Hawrk-ohl, and a variety of human-like D-bees. .... Shapeshifters, major or master psionics, praticioners of magic, creatures of magic and supernatural beings cannot undergo this treatment."

While there is nothing specifically mentioned (that I could find) barring a psionic from undergoing the regular Juicer conversion process, I'd figure that, much like getting cybernetic implantation, they'd probably prefer not to. If they did undergo the process I'd treat it much like cybernetic implantation, loss of psionic abilities. This is specifically mentioned as happening to Dog Boys that undergo the treatment.

I didn't see that, and I'd make them at least drop back to minor.

/Sub

Isn't there a psi-stalker juicer varrent that might give you an idea of the affect of juicer augmention on psi charters.

[Subjugator]

Dog Boys, Bursters, Psi Stalkers, and perhaps a few others I can't actively recall at the moment.

This is completely incorrect. I list them below. 'Powers' refers to sensitive, physical, healing, or super psionic powers that are not unique to a given class.

Gargoyles:
Powers: Eight - this number does not increase
Save: +1 on psionic saves - saves as a normal person
ISP: 1D4x10 - this number does not increase

Dog Boys:
Sense psychic and magic energy
Recognize psychic scent
Sense supernatural beings
Save: Master
Powers: Five sensitive powers
ISP: 1D6x10 + M.E attribute +10 per level

Burster:
Impervious to fire and heat
Extinguish fires
Flame burst (including MDC protection)
Fire bolt
Fire eruption
Sense fire
Super fuel flame
Save: Master
Powers: 3 + 1 at 3, 6, 9, and 12
ISP: 3D4x10 + M.E. + 10 per level


Psi-Stalkers:
Sense Psychic and Magic Energy
Sense Supernatural Beings
Empathy with animals
Mega-Damage conversion
Save: Better than master (6 or better instead of 10 or better)
Powers: Six
ISP: M.E. + 1D6x10 + 10 per level

They have major psionic abilities. They are not in any way equal to masters.

My comparison is based upon the number of abilities not the types of abilites. Double checking the rules for Major psionics puts them firmly in that category's range as they have a total of eight psionic abilites, though the deviation from the standards for Major psionics (selecting eight from one category or six from two or three) can probably be chalked up to racial charactersitics.

You said master. Major, yes. Master, no.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

You can house rule it if you like, but the rules are specific.

umm it looks like the rules are kinda poorly edited to me. But that is nothing new, I can see how the way the wrote it up whould cause some confusion. But again what happens is up to the group and gm to decide.

I'll grant they're poorly written, but they explicitly say gargoyles and brodkil can be Maxi-Killers.

/Sub

[keir451]

Dog Boys, Bursters, Psi Stalkers, and perhaps a few others I can't actively recall at the moment.

This is completely incorrect. I list them below. 'Powers' refers to sensitive, physical, healing, or super psionic powers that are not unique to a given class.

Gargoyles:
Powers: Eight - this number does not increase
Save: +1 on psionic saves - saves as a normal person
ISP: 1D4x10 - this number does not increase

Dog Boys:
Sense psychic and magic energy
Recognize psychic scent
Sense supernatural beings
Save: Master
Powers: Five sensitive powers
ISP: 1D6x10 + M.E attribute +10 per level

Burster:
Impervious to fire and heat
Extinguish fires
Flame burst (including MDC protection)
Fire bolt
Fire eruption
Sense fire
Super fuel flame
Save: Master
Powers: 3 + 1 at 3, 6, 9, and 12
ISP: 3D4x10 + M.E. + 10 per level


Psi-Stalkers:
Sense Psychic and Magic Energy
Sense Supernatural Beings
Empathy with animals
Mega-Damage conversion
Save: Better than master (6 or better instead of 10 or better)
Powers: Six
ISP: M.E. + 1D6x10 + 10 per level

They have major psionic abilities. They are not in any way equal to masters.

My comparison is based upon the number of abilities not the types of abilites. Double checking the rules for Major psionics puts them firmly in that category's range as they have a total of eight psionic abilites, though the deviation from the standards for Major psionics (selecting eight from one category or six from two or three) can probably be chalked up to racial charactersitics.

You said master. Major, yes. Master, no.

/Sub

Yes, I said Master, and Yes they actually fall into the Major psionic classification. I was going off the fact that many psionic races/ classes are typically called "master psionics", but you're correct that they aren't master psionics, and that master psionics save is different from a major or minor psionics save (I was tired and didn't do the proper research, my bad ). By their number of abilities they fall into the Major psionic class which means they need a base roll of 12 or better to save vs psionic attack, then they also get a +1 as well as any bonuses from ME (just like any other character). But this can also technically mean that IF they are actually Major psionics then they cannot undergo the Maxi-Killer conversion, but that may have been an oversight on the authors who may have felt that Gargoyles, being static in their abilities, don't quite qualify as major psionic. Nonetheless, Yes, in the end we can both house rule it however we want, but it would be nice to have a clearer idea as to wether or not the Gargoyles are actually major psionics or not. Right now we only know the number and types of powers and the fact that they are equal to a 6th level psionic wiht a +1 save.

[Subjugator]

One thing I wish Palladium would do is offer a canonical rules service where you pay $20.00 and get a definitive answer.

I'd pay it.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

Yes, I said Master, and Yes they actually fall into the Major psionic classification. I was going off the fact that many psionic races/ classes are typically called "master psionics", but you're correct that they aren't master psionics, and that master psionics save is different from a major or minor psionics save (I was tired and didn't do the proper research, my bad ). By their number of abilities they fall into the Major psionic class which means they need a base roll of 12 or better to save vs psionic attack, then they also get a +1 as well as any bonuses from ME (just like any other character). But this can also technically mean that IF they are actually Major psionics then they cannot undergo the Maxi-Killer conversion, but that may have been an oversight on the authors who may have felt that Gargoyles, being static in their abilities, don't quite qualify as major psionic. Nonetheless, Yes, in the end we can both house rule it however we want, but it would be nice to have a clearer idea as to wether or not the Gargoyles are actually major psionics or not. Right now we only know the number and types of powers and the fact that they are equal to a 6th level psionic wiht a +1 save.

Well, given that specific trumps general, we also know they can be maxi-killers.

Gargoyles and Brodkil can do this > Supernatural beings and beings with major/master psionics cannot do this.

The first is specific, the second is general.

/Sub

[keir451]

Yes, I said Master, and Yes they actually fall into the Major psionic classification. I was going off the fact that many psionic races/ classes are typically called "master psionics", but you're correct that they aren't master psionics, and that master psionics save is different from a major or minor psionics save (I was tired and didn't do the proper research, my bad ). By their number of abilities they fall into the Major psionic class which means they need a base roll of 12 or better to save vs psionic attack, then they also get a +1 as well as any bonuses from ME (just like any other character). But this can also technically mean that IF they are actually Major psionics then they cannot undergo the Maxi-Killer conversion, but that may have been an oversight on the authors who may have felt that Gargoyles, being static in their abilities, don't quite qualify as major psionic. Nonetheless, Yes, in the end we can both house rule it however we want, but it would be nice to have a clearer idea as to wether or not the Gargoyles are actually major psionics or not. Right now we only know the number and types of powers and the fact that they are equal to a 6th level psionic wiht a +1 save.

Well, given that specific trumps general, we also know they can be maxi-killers.

Gargoyles and Brodkil can do this > Supernatural beings and beings with major/master psionics cannot do this.

The first is specific, the second is general.

/Sub

If you say so. Personally, I'm so tired of the lack of specifics that I tend to house rule EVERYTHING because 90% of the time none of it makes any sense. This discussion is a prime example, the gargoyles are not defined clearly enough to provide an effective answer and having to half-bake it by attempting to interpret a sentence regarding a different subject is annoying as well as ridiculous. Anyway I'm done with this one, have fun!

[Subjugator]

If you say so. Personally, I'm so tired of the lack of specifics that I tend to house rule EVERYTHING because 90% of the time none of it makes any sense. This discussion is a prime example, the gargoyles are not defined clearly enough to provide an effective answer and having to half-bake it by attempting to interpret a sentence regarding a different subject is annoying as well as ridiculous. Anyway I'm done with this one, have fun!

See above. I'd PAY for clarifying answers.

/Sub