Mage Methods For Gaining PPE

[BurningChaos]

Sorry if this seems kind of stupid to some of you but I was reading up on mages and on ways for them to get more ppe to you know, actually perform some of their spells. Anyways I came across a section where it stated that ppe can be taken from regular people and super powered people as long as they don't know your doing it or don't will you not to (and of course you can't steal a mages no matter what). So I was wondering if by doing this a mage could only replenish their ppe, or if they could use it to temporarily or permanently increase their max ppe capacity. (for example someone can regenerate up to 400 ppe but can steal ppe to gain an extra 100 making them hold 500 while still only being able to regenerate 400 of it, thus making it temporary. Or in the latter case once he absorbs the extra 100 ppe that adds 100 to their replenishable amount, allowing them to regenerate up to 500 ppe). Now with this being stated a mage could easily walk into a mall and psychically steal everyone's ppe around them, or worse yet seeing as ppe doubles at the moment of death, they could simply cast one spell (a powerful one but still only one) and send the roof crashing down on the people within the mall killing them all and giving the now doubled ppe to the mage. This is just my assumption, I wanted to make sure I wasn't taking things too far with what I read or not so I wanted to make sure before I did anything. Thank you all in advance for your helpful posts and interesting perspectives.

[AlanGunhouse]

It is temporary, but you can go past your base PPE. You can store up to twice your base PPE for roughly an hour. This is used in ceremonial magic by low PPE mages to cast high cost spells frequently.

Some specific mage types can store more than that, but that is a question for other games.

[Regularguy]

seeing as ppe doubles at the moment of death, they could simply cast one spell (a powerful one but still only one) and send the roof crashing down on the people within the mall killing them all and giving the now doubled ppe to the mage.

Or, if you're more of a good guy, how about just setting yourself up with a private aquarium? Maybe one you can, um, run an electric current through, or something? Sure, you don't get a lot of PPE from each dying fish, but if you're rich enough to have a lot of fish...

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip..So I was wondering if by doing this a mage could only replenish their ppe, or if they could use it to temporarily or permanently increase their max ppe capacity.
... snip...
Now with this being stated a mage could easily walk into a mall and psychically steal everyone's ppe around them, or worse yet seeing as ppe doubles at the moment of death, they could simply cast one spell (a powerful one but still only one) and send the roof crashing down on the people within the mall killing them all and giving the now doubled ppe to the mage.
... snip.

There is a debate over whether or not if PPE gained from outside the body Replenishes the Base PPE or is just temporary and fades away after a time.
AlanGuunhouse has stated his view is on the "It is only temp PPE" side of the debate.
However, there are people with the view the "The PPE replenishes the Base PPE" side of the debate.
There is text enough to support both sides without being definitive to which side is correct.


Yes, the "walking to the mall" to fill up on PPE is a tactic of mages. However, mages that live in the town/city do not mass murder people just to refill.

Note: It would be nice if you would not write big blocks of text. Break up the text so your questions can stand out from the other text.

[AlanGunhouse]

Well, I said if it is BEYOND YOUR BASE PPE, it is temporary.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Well, I said if it is BEYOND YOUR BASE PPE, it is temporary.

I apologize.

However, the way you worded it did not say that. Maybe you should edit your post to make it to say what you meant.

The book says you can gather up to x3 base ppe of temporary PPE from other sources, and the time is PE minuets.

[The Beast]

Well, I said if it is BEYOND YOUR BASE PPE, it is temporary.

I apologize.

However, the way you worded it did not say that. Maybe you should edit your post to make it to say what you meant.

The book says you can gather up to x3 base ppe of temporary PPE from other sources, and the time is PE minuets.

Going off of the same standard that Palladium uses to word things he did...

[BurningChaos]

Well, I said if it is BEYOND YOUR BASE PPE, it is temporary.

I apologize.

However, the way you worded it did not say that. Maybe you should edit your post to make it to say what you meant.

The book says you can gather up to x3 base ppe of temporary PPE from other sources, and the time is PE minuets.

Going off of the same standard that Palladium uses to word things he did...

So could this temporary ppe be used in a permanent way? I ask this because I am wondering if someone could use the temporary ppe to make a charm, and then used the temporary ppe again to fill the charm with 50 ppe, would that ppe remain in that charm until used, or would it simply disappear when duration (pe in minutes) is reached?

[AlanGunhouse]

It would remain in the charm, you could consider it like having a battery and a capacitor, the capacitor discharges, but if you use it to charge a battery the battery stays charged.

[BurningChaos]

So aside from staking up charms is their any way that a mystic sutdy, or any other magically inclined character in Heroes Unlimited, would be able to perform spells like the spell of legend "Sanctuary"? (on another note is their a size or weight limitation to a charm, as in a minimum or mazimum heigth or weight?)

[drewkitty ~..~]

So could this temporary ppe be used in a permanent way? I ask this because I am wondering if someone could use the temporary ppe to make a charm, and then used the temporary ppe again to fill the charm with 50 ppe, would that ppe remain in that charm until used, or would it simply disappear when duration (pe in minutes) is reached?

If you mean Talisman instead of charm, then yes. In fact that is SOP, for making Talismans.(At least in my book.)
And talisman PPE batteries, and other PPE batteries, filled with gathered PPE does not disperse.

The making of Charms are covered in the Through the Glass Darkly book. These take Perm PPE points from the Mage's Base PPE to make.

Amulets, are made through the Amulet spell.

[BurningChaos]

So could this temporary ppe be used in a permanent way? I ask this because I am wondering if someone could use the temporary ppe to make a charm, and then used the temporary ppe again to fill the charm with 50 ppe, would that ppe remain in that charm until used, or would it simply disappear when duration (pe in minutes) is reached?

If you mean Talisman instead of charm, then yes. In fact that is SOP, for making Talismans.(At least in my book.)
And talisman PPE batteries, and other PPE batteries, filled with gathered PPE does not disperse.

The making of Charms are covered in the Through the Glass Darkly book. These take Perm PPE points from the Mage's Base PPE to make.

Amulets, are made through the Amulet spell.

lol yeah talismens sorry about that, my bad. Yeah they are pretty OP but at the same time in Heroes Unlimited mages can sometimes be pretty under powered when compared to... well.... Everything, there I said it. Most of their powers are almost impossible to cast without the use of ley lines, extreme luck (the day such as the winter and summer solstice), and large amounts of perperation (charging a hundred talismens with ppe).

[drewkitty ~..~]

yeah talismans sorry about that, my bad. Yeah they are pretty OP but at the same time in Heroes Unlimited mages can sometimes be pretty under powered when compared to... well.... Everything, there I said it. Most of their powers are almost impossible to cast without the use of ley lines, extreme luck (the day such as the winter and summer solstice), and large amounts of preparation (charging a hundred talismans with ppe).

What I like about the Mystic Study power cat is that it gets more spells to start and they get more spells per level and more range of spell selection when leveling. Thus it is my class of choice if not limited to a specific setting for choosing the class of the char I'm playing.
Combine in I'm a wholistic when talking about the spell lists. Not limiting the spell selection list to just one setting's spells. So even a PF wizard could get sorcerer's fury(RWB:FoM), or a LLW could get whirling wall(PF:LoB).
I also would let chars choose spells from the "invented spells" topic. And maybe bonus points if they chose one of the spells I posted there.

[AlanGunhouse]

Magical and Psionic characters give up something in raw power and/or ability to use it often to gain in versatility.

[Regularguy]

For Spells of Legend, what you need is a group. A coven, if you will. Get ten wizards with a 110 PPE each together and you can cast a 1000 point spell with relative ease.

Heh. IIRC, someone hereabouts posted an idea a while back for a one-man coven: going the "Mystic Bestowed spellcaster with one Major Power" route, where the power in question is Multiple Selves, to instantly whip up a dozen 100% loyal spellcasters who give up their PPE on cue...

[BurningChaos]

For Spells of Legend, what you need is a group. A coven, if you will. Get ten wizards with a 110 PPE each together and you can cast a 1000 point spell with relative ease.

Heh. IIRC, someone hereabouts posted an idea a while back for a one-man coven: going the "Mystic Bestowed spellcaster with one Major Power" route, where the power in question is Multiple Selves, to instantly whip up a dozen 100% loyal spellcasters who give up their PPE on cue...

You can easily pull that off with an Immortal character. Immortal Godlings or Demon Lords are the best, since they get one bonus Major Power. Take Wizard Supreme and Multiple Selves and you're good to go.

Even with such a build mages seem pretty under powered to mean. Taking three actions just to perform a single spell that can be resisted, and won't even work if the caster wan't talk, not to mention that do to the low amounts of ppe most of them posses you could have probably only done the spell once anyways.

[Nightmask]

For Spells of Legend, what you need is a group. A coven, if you will. Get ten wizards with a 110 PPE each together and you can cast a 1000 point spell with relative ease.

Heh. IIRC, someone hereabouts posted an idea a while back for a one-man coven: going the "Mystic Bestowed spellcaster with one Major Power" route, where the power in question is Multiple Selves, to instantly whip up a dozen 100% loyal spellcasters who give up their PPE on cue...

You can easily pull that off with an Immortal character. Immortal Godlings or Demon Lords are the best, since they get one bonus Major Power. Take Wizard Supreme and Multiple Selves and you're good to go.

Even with such a build mages seem pretty under powered to mean. Taking three actions just to perform a single spell that can be resisted, and won't even work if the caster wan't talk, not to mention that do to the low amounts of ppe most of them posses you could have probably only done the spell once anyways.

Should look at the details on an Immortal Godling particularly with that kind of design, as they have a lot of bonus PPE and based on the rules not speaking specifically against it by creating duplicates of yourself you also multiply your available PPE as each duplicate has an independent amount of PPE. So even at first level you're doubling your available PPE thanks to the duplicate and it can overcharge like the original and so working together 'they' can cast some serious PPE demand spells. Go with the weaker version of Multiple Selves (each copy one level lower) and by 3rd level you've 3 copies for a total of 4 times the PPE of just the original. Such a character can magnify its spellcasting capacity enormously.

[BurningChaos]

For Spells of Legend, what you need is a group. A coven, if you will. Get ten wizards with a 110 PPE each together and you can cast a 1000 point spell with relative ease.

Heh. IIRC, someone hereabouts posted an idea a while back for a one-man coven: going the "Mystic Bestowed spellcaster with one Major Power" route, where the power in question is Multiple Selves, to instantly whip up a dozen 100% loyal spellcasters who give up their PPE on cue...

You can easily pull that off with an Immortal character. Immortal Godlings or Demon Lords are the best, since they get one bonus Major Power. Take Wizard Supreme and Multiple Selves and you're good to go.

Even with such a build mages seem pretty under powered to mean. Taking three actions just to perform a single spell that can be resisted, and won't even work if the caster wan't talk, not to mention that do to the low amounts of ppe most of them posses you could have probably only done the spell once anyways.

Should look at the details on an Immortal Godling particularly with that kind of design, as they have a lot of bonus PPE and based on the rules not speaking specifically against it by creating duplicates of yourself you also multiply your available PPE as each duplicate has an independent amount of PPE. So even at first level you're doubling your available PPE thanks to the duplicate and it can overcharge like the original and so working together 'they' can cast some serious PPE demand spells. Go with the weaker version of Multiple Selves (each copy one level lower) and by 3rd level you've 3 copies for a total of 4 times the PPE of just the original. Such a character can magnify its spellcasting capacity enormously.

But there is just sooooo, many down flaws. First weakness, and probably the most noticeable being that you are a immortal and therefore have an Achilles's Heel. The next being that your a mage and aside from your SDC as a immortal you have little to no SDC, making you easy to take down before you can even release the multiple beings of self. But say you do manage to release them, you have to waste at least 2 actions to perform any decent spell, a full melee round if you want to cast anything great. In that time your army could be completely wiped out. If not simple duct tape could take down the mage. Take away their ability to speak and their powerless, even APS Air specifically states that mages are powerless inside their tornado. The way I see it a mage can only be good with plenty of prep time, decent spells, and the ability to make duplicates, (or a legion of cult like followers obeying their every command). It just seems almost impossible for anything great to come out from being a in, in my opinion, under powered mage.

[Nightmask]

But there is just sooooo, many down flaws. First weakness, and probably the most noticeable being that you are a immortal and therefore have an Achilles's Heel. The next being that your a mage and aside from your SDC as a immortal you have little to no SDC, making you easy to take down before you can even release the multiple beings of self. But say you do manage to release them, you have to waste at least 2 actions to perform any decent spell, a full melee round if you want to cast anything great. In that time your army could be completely wiped out. If not simple duct tape could take down the mage. Take away their ability to speak and their powerless, even APS Air specifically states that mages are powerless inside their tornado. The way I see it a mage can only be good with plenty of prep time, decent spells, and the ability to make duplicates, (or a legion of cult like followers obeying their every command). It just seems almost impossible for anything great to come out from being a in, in my opinion, under powered mage.

Minimum SDC of an Immortal Godling is 100, minimum HP is 30+PE which is way far away from being classed as 'little to no SDC' and easy to take down. Average rolls would place you at 200 SDC and 110 HP, decent to better rolls and far more than that. Stacks of bonuses (including a +2 on number of Melee Attacks) and bonuses to Initiative. With one extra special mega-power above the Immortal power enormous SDC if chosen would push your base SDC at least 300 and averages would put you over 500 SDC.

Meanwhile PPE is a minimum of 110 added onto the minimum base of 10 (1d6x10) plus PE. So talking around 120 PPE just for pitiful rolls not even talking for average or decent rolls which can put that over 200. Gains 10 PPE every level as well.

So the first level Immortal Godling, with an average of 200 SDC, 60 PE, 140 PPE and Multiple Beings/Selves in place of another special Mega-Power. He duplicates himself before a battle, now has 2 selves each with 140 PPE, and both selves can over-charge bringing that with a suitable PPE source to 420 (or 560 depending on how you evaluate the rules on overcharging). In combat they can easily tag team someone with spells, one distracting while the other casts or both can cast at once, and still have some melee attacks left over what with their bonuses. Level up a bit and he's multiplying that enormously. He can cast spells of legend as a group casting effort by himself.

Oh and there's nothing to suggest that Immortal Godlings have the mega-hero vulnerabilities applied to them. While the Mega-hero is used as a template not everything from the mega-hero applies because we're talking Immortals we're developing here. Even if they did apply you can't possibly think those vulnerabilities make any of those Mega-heroes or godlings wimps. Some aren't even actual penalties, like the ego-maniac thing. The character runs around with a (justifiable) god complex and his only penalties are purely people interaction penalties. Combat-wise he's full-powered and going to be taking names.

[BurningChaos]

But there is just sooooo, many down flaws. First weakness, and probably the most noticeable being that you are a immortal and therefore have an Achilles's Heel. The next being that your a mage and aside from your SDC as a immortal you have little to no SDC, making you easy to take down before you can even release the multiple beings of self. But say you do manage to release them, you have to waste at least 2 actions to perform any decent spell, a full melee round if you want to cast anything great. In that time your army could be completely wiped out. If not simple duct tape could take down the mage. Take away their ability to speak and their powerless, even APS Air specifically states that mages are powerless inside their tornado. The way I see it a mage can only be good with plenty of prep time, decent spells, and the ability to make duplicates, (or a legion of cult like followers obeying their every command). It just seems almost impossible for anything great to come out from being a in, in my opinion, under powered mage.

Minimum SDC of an Immortal Godling is 100, minimum HP is 30+PE which is way far away from being classed as 'little to no SDC' and easy to take down. Average rolls would place you at 200 SDC and 110 HP, decent to better rolls and far more than that. Stacks of bonuses (including a +2 on number of Melee Attacks) and bonuses to Initiative. With one extra special mega-power above the Immortal power enormous SDC if chosen would push your base SDC at least 300 and averages would put you over 500 SDC.

Meanwhile PPE is a minimum of 110 added onto the minimum base of 10 (1d6x10) plus PE. So talking around 120 PPE just for pitiful rolls not even talking for average or decent rolls which can put that over 200. Gains 10 PPE every level as well.

So the first level Immortal Godling, with an average of 200 SDC, 60 PE, 140 PPE and Multiple Beings/Selves in place of another special Mega-Power. He duplicates himself before a battle, now has 2 selves each with 140 PPE, and both selves can over-charge bringing that with a suitable PPE source to 420 (or 560 depending on how you evaluate the rules on overcharging). In combat they can easily tag team someone with spells, one distracting while the other casts or both can cast at once, and still have some melee attacks left over what with their bonuses. Level up a bit and he's multiplying that enormously. He can cast spells of legend as a group casting effort by himself.

Oh and there's nothing to suggest that Immortal Godlings have the mega-hero vulnerabilities applied to them. While the Mega-hero is used as a template not everything from the mega-hero applies because we're talking Immortals we're developing here. Even if they did apply you can't possibly think those vulnerabilities make any of those Mega-heroes or godlings wimps. Some aren't even actual penalties, like the ego-maniac thing. The character runs around with a (justifiable) god complex and his only penalties are purely people interaction penalties. Combat-wise he's full-powered and going to be taking names.

okay first of all my apologies I didn't know that godling was picked already, no excuse though, I'm sorry. I see now that it was already picked, but before I assumed the average immortal which could mean immortal human, mermaid, faerie, etc. Despite the high amount of SDC (for a mage) there are still too many flaws, and it took being an immortal to be able to compensate for it. to start their are many powers that could completely destroy the mage such as APS air and the minor power warp sound, not to mention the impervious which makes you immune to most of it's attacks. Aside from all this the character may be able to cast a spell of legend at level one, technically by himself, but by doing so he has left himself completely drained. Let's not forget that the only reason this mage isn't an instant write off is because he is an immortal godling. I just don't see mages, even this one being anything more than a minor nuisance. Even in worse case scenario what would the mage do if they beat their opponent, but their just so happens to be another one right afterwards and the godling mage is drained? Or that if this guy was fighting a well constructed super power godling he would have a very good chance of being outclassed.

[Nightmask]

okay first of all my apologies I didn't know that godling was picked already, no excuse though, I'm sorry. I see now that it was already picked, but before I assumed the average immortal which could mean immortal human, mermaid, faerie, etc. Despite the high amount of SDC (for a mage) there are still too many flaws, and it took being an immortal to be able to compensate for it. to start their are many powers that could completely destroy the mage such as APS air and the minor power warp sound, not to mention the impervious which makes you immune to most of it's attacks. Aside from all this the character may be able to cast a spell of legend at level one, technically by himself, but by doing so he has left himself completely drained. Let's not forget that the only reason this mage isn't an instant write off is because he is an immortal godling. I just don't see mages, even this one being anything more than a minor nuisance. Even in worse case scenario what would the mage do if they beat their opponent, but their just so happens to be another one right afterwards and the godling mage is drained? Or that if this guy was fighting a well constructed super power godling he would have a very good chance of being outclassed.

I see the problem here now, you've a complete lock against mages so nothing I point out will be properly evaluated. You complained about their SDC being non-existent and I point out it's not even close and you just move the goalposts back to insist it's still not enough, when the amount of SDC available is high for anyone mage or not. 200+ SDC is considered hefty not trivial.

APS: air and Warp Sound isn't going to completely destroy anyone mage or not. If it could it would affect just about everyone that way and not just mages.

Mages, whether this one or 'normal' aren't mere nuisances one can easily write off. They have many spells available that don't cost that much and can affect many people at once, and this version can multiply that range of spell attacks incredibly well. He's certainly not going to be burning through his combined 300+ PPE reserve just to take out one guy, if he is the character was deliberately overpowered. Which reflects on your comment about the 'well constructed godling' as well, a GM can outclass anyone he wants anytime he wants so trying to make it out as if somehow the mage is especially vulnerable to that just fails as an argument. No class is immune to that, one guy with 'Negate Super-Powers' can make even the toughest brick REALLY vulnerable. Meanwhile that Mage isn't going to have that problem.

[BurningChaos]

okay first of all my apologies I didn't know that godling was picked already, no excuse though, I'm sorry. I see now that it was already picked, but before I assumed the average immortal which could mean immortal human, mermaid, faerie, etc. Despite the high amount of SDC (for a mage) there are still too many flaws, and it took being an immortal to be able to compensate for it. to start their are many powers that could completely destroy the mage such as APS air and the minor power warp sound, not to mention the impervious which makes you immune to most of it's attacks. Aside from all this the character may be able to cast a spell of legend at level one, technically by himself, but by doing so he has left himself completely drained. Let's not forget that the only reason this mage isn't an instant write off is because he is an immortal godling. I just don't see mages, even this one being anything more than a minor nuisance. Even in worse case scenario what would the mage do if they beat their opponent, but their just so happens to be another one right afterwards and the godling mage is drained? Or that if this guy was fighting a well constructed super power godling he would have a very good chance of being outclassed.

I see the problem here now, you've a complete lock against mages so nothing I point out will be properly evaluated. You complained about their SDC being non-existent and I point out it's not even close and you just move the goalposts back to insist it's still not enough, when the amount of SDC available is high for anyone mage or not. 200+ SDC is considered hefty not trivial.

APS: air and Warp Sound isn't going to completely destroy anyone mage or not. If it could it would affect just about everyone that way and not just mages.

Mages, whether this one or 'normal' aren't mere nuisances one can easily write off. They have many spells available that don't cost that much and can affect many people at once, and this version can multiply that range of spell attacks incredibly well. He's certainly not going to be burning through his combined 300+ PPE reserve just to take out one guy, if he is the character was deliberately overpowered. Which reflects on your comment about the 'well constructed godling' as well, a GM can outclass anyone he wants anytime he wants so trying to make it out as if somehow the mage is especially vulnerable to that just fails as an argument. No class is immune to that, one guy with 'Negate Super-Powers' can make even the toughest brick REALLY vulnerable. Meanwhile that Mage isn't going to have that problem.

first of all in my second post I mentioned that I didn't see the fact that it was a godling, by that I meant, yeah they do have a pretty good amount of SDC, so no need to really attack me about that any more thank you.

Second of all both APS: air and warp sound state that they are capable of temporarily negating spells. It says so right in the powers, so yeah they can completely destroy mages.

Mages in my opinion (as I have stated this entire time) can be considered a write off when not immortal because they do not have the multiple beings of self bonus, or the SDC to take multiple hits. With this being said they would need to spend at least two actions casting a decent spell to get their opponent off them, pray to god it succeeds, and then they stand a chance because there is many ways that one can one hit a 'normal' mage. That being said it is quite possible that they would have to blow there entire PPE reserves on one opponent because there spells can fail and they can't relying on high damaging spells to instantly knock out any super being. And about the whole negate super abilities making even the toughest brick really vulnerable. Are you kidding me. At level 15 the attack can only be done up to 270 feet away and even when performed it reduces the user to a measly 2 attacks per melee. There are many ways that a super being can overcome the negate super ability power.

[Nightmask]

Well here's the thing... To negate the spells of our intrepid wizard hero, they need initiative. If they don't get it, they eat fireballs. Full stop. Even if they get it, they can't keep it if they can't maintain line of sight, keep up with the guy, or stay in range. Running away is ALWAYS an option.

Mages don't have to show up to the party visible thanks to... oh, I dunno... the INVISIBILITY SPELL. Can't see the Mage, can't silence the mage. Simple.

If things get really bad, HAVE A BUDDY CUT IN. You know, in a fantasy game, mages don't do frontline combat. They shouldn't have to in a superhero game either. Have a brick with APS: Metal and Super Energy Expulsion: Fire watching your back to handle Mr. APS: Air and Warp Sound, yes?

Wizards can do a VAST number of different things any single super will never be able to do simply due to the number and variety of spells available to them. They're not frontline combatants, though. If you treat them like they are, you deserve to get a boulder dropped on you... in real life.

Oh, and if you think wizards have it bad, I can't imagine how useless you find Stage Magicians to be.

That is the problem really, he's only focused on dishing and taking damage in straight-up melee combat and rating everything else as trivial or meaningless from the looks of things. So all the spells that exist to deal with problems that aren't 'I toss a fireball' are irrelevant and even those are dismissed because you can't cast them non-stop (even though some actually do give you as many attacks as you have melee attacks) and run out of ammo from his viewpoint too fast.

Spellcasters in most cases aren't meant to be in there matching someone blow-for-blow, just like the spy/stealth sort isn't, and many supers in Heroes Unlimited aren't going to have much if any SDC greater than the mage. Certainly not by a significant fashion, and the mage can at least supplement that with protective spells.

[BurningChaos]

Well here's the thing... To negate the spells of our intrepid wizard hero, they need initiative. If they don't get it, they eat fireballs. Full stop. Even if they get it, they can't keep it if they can't maintain line of sight, keep up with the guy, or stay in range. Running away is ALWAYS an option.

Mages don't have to show up to the party visible thanks to... oh, I dunno... the INVISIBILITY SPELL. Can't see the Mage, can't silence the mage. Simple.

If things get really bad, HAVE A BUDDY CUT IN. You know, in a fantasy game, mages don't do frontline combat. They shouldn't have to in a superhero game either. Have a brick with APS: Metal and Super Energy Expulsion: Fire watching your back to handle Mr. APS: Air and Warp Sound, yes?

Wizards can do a VAST number of different things any single super will never be able to do simply due to the number and variety of spells available to them. They're not frontline combatants, though. If you treat them like they are, you deserve to get a boulder dropped on you... in real life.

Oh, and if you think wizards have it bad, I can't imagine how useless you find Stage Magicians to be.

That is the problem really, he's only focused on dishing and taking damage in straight-up melee combat and rating everything else as trivial or meaningless from the looks of things. So all the spells that exist to deal with problems that aren't 'I toss a fireball' are irrelevant and even those are dismissed because you can't cast them non-stop (even though some actually do give you as many attacks as you have melee attacks) and run out of ammo from his viewpoint too fast.

Spellcasters in most cases aren't meant to be in there matching someone blow-for-blow, just like the spy/stealth sort isn't, and many supers in Heroes Unlimited aren't going to have much if any SDC greater than the mage. Certainly not by a significant fashion, and the mage can at least supplement that with protective spells.

Cory of all APS air still has them completely trumped, eliminates the run and stealth factor. Next the part that I hate the most about mages is not the fact that they aren't meant for one on one combat, I understand that they aren't meant for that, it's the fact that they have difficult times dealing with one on one combat terms. Spell ranges aren't that wow worthy and can be trumped by any man with a sniper rifle. They don't have the SDC to protect themselves from a surprise attack, it's not like a super being where they are many abilities that protect you from stealth attacks, getting the spells alone fan be extremely tedious and you need a lot of spells before you can gain the Mage ability of being useful in almost any scenario, and before that they in my opinion are dined with only being useful in some scenarios. I also understand what your saying when you say that there are a variety of things that a Mage can do than a super being but in order to do all these things you need a lot of PPE and spells, and when the spells like turn water into wine cost a lot of PPE your gonna have a hard time casting anything actually worth the PPE.

[Nightmask]

Cory of all APS air still has them completely trumped, eliminates the run and stealth factor. Next the part that I hate the most about mages is not the fact that they aren't meant for one on one combat, I understand that they aren't meant for that, it's the fact that they have difficult times dealing with one on one combat terms. Spell ranges aren't that wow worthy and can be trumped by any man with a sniper rifle. They don't have the SDC to protect themselves from a surprise attack, it's not like a super being where they are many abilities that protect you from stealth attacks, getting the spells alone fan be extremely tedious and you need a lot of spells before you can gain the Mage ability of being useful in almost any scenario, and before that they in my opinion are dined with only being useful in some scenarios. I also understand what your saying when you say that there are a variety of things that a Mage can do than a super being but in order to do all these things you need a lot of PPE and spells, and when the spells like turn water into wine cost a lot of PPE your gonna have a hard time casting anything actually worth the PPE.

Sorry but as broken in some ways as Heroes Unlimited is considered to be there is no way any power completely trumps anyone, particularly a mage. You keep making it out like mages are helpless infants just for being mages, like they've nothing at all going for them and everyone else has it going on and that's just completely wrong.

Meanwhile as I already stated most characters don't have that much if any more SDC than a mage, so what applies to mages applies to most other characters in that situation including many superhumans. Many powers aren't going to give any SDC or HP bonuses and as pointed out in Nightbane don't get so cocky just because you've hundreds of SDC as it's quite easy for that to be whittled away in a few melees by sustained gunfire.

Your tank with APS: Air and Sound Control is just as 'wow look at how his head exploded!' to a sniper, including a surprise attack by a mage. He's nothing special and has nothing over the mage. His ranges aren't better than the mage and no character would fair well against a surprise attack targeting its vulnerabilities even a mega-hero mutant.

I get it, you love super-powers. Super-powers however aren't all that and a bag of chips and they certainly don't trump the mage's spells particularly as he accumulates spells and keeps adding to his bag of powers whereas that super's never going to gain any other powers (except for the rare case of the mutant with growing powers who slowly adds a few new powers as he gains levels). Whatever situation you contrive to 'prove' how much a weak infant a mage is you can put together just as many for the super-powered sort. They all have weaknesses and strengths.

[BurningChaos]

For Spells of Legend, what you need is a group. A coven, if you will. Get ten wizards with a 110 PPE each together and you can cast a 1000 point spell with relative ease.

Heh. IIRC, someone hereabouts posted an idea a while back for a one-man coven: going the "Mystic Bestowed spellcaster with one Major Power" route, where the power in question is Multiple Selves, to instantly whip up a dozen 100% loyal spellcasters who give up their PPE on cue...

You can easily pull that off with an Immortal character. Immortal Godlings or Demon Lords are the best, since they get one bonus Major Power. Take Wizard Supreme and Multiple Selves and you're good to go.

Even with such a build mages seem pretty under powered to mean. Taking three actions just to perform a single spell that can be resisted, and won't even work if the caster wan't talk, not to mention that do to the low amounts of ppe most of them posses you could have probably only done the spell once anyways.

Should look at the details on an Immortal Godling particularly with that kind of design, as they have a lot of bonus PPE and based on the rules not speaking specifically against it by creating duplicates of yourself you also multiply your available PPE as each duplicate has an independent amount of PPE. So even at first level you're doubling your available PPE thanks to the duplicate and it can overcharge like the original and so working together 'they' can cast some serious PPE demand spells. Go with the weaker version of Multiple Selves (each copy one level lower) and by 3rd level you've 3 copies for a total of 4 times the PPE of just the original. Such a character can magnify its spellcasting capacity enormously.

I thought we were past the whole godling thing. The fact that you have to make Mage a godling in order to point out how good they can be means almost nothing, anything as a godling is fan-freaking-tastic, but as a normal Mage they are just not that great

[BurningChaos]

Cory of all APS air still has them completely trumped, eliminates the run and stealth factor. Next the part that I hate the most about mages is not the fact that they aren't meant for one on one combat, I understand that they aren't meant for that, it's the fact that they have difficult times dealing with one on one combat terms. Spell ranges aren't that wow worthy and can be trumped by any man with a sniper rifle. They don't have the SDC to protect themselves from a surprise attack, it's not like a super being where they are many abilities that protect you from stealth attacks, getting the spells alone fan be extremely tedious and you need a lot of spells before you can gain the Mage ability of being useful in almost any scenario, and before that they in my opinion are dined with only being useful in some scenarios. I also understand what your saying when you say that there are a variety of things that a Mage can do than a super being but in order to do all these things you need a lot of PPE and spells, and when the spells like turn water into wine cost a lot of PPE your gonna have a hard time casting anything actually worth the PPE.

Sorry but as broken in some ways as Heroes Unlimited is considered to be there is no way any power completely trumps anyone, particularly a mage. You keep making it out like mages are helpless infants just for being mages, like they've nothing at all going for them and everyone else has it going on and that's just completely wrong.

Meanwhile as I already stated most characters don't have that much if any more SDC than a mage, so what applies to mages applies to most other characters in that situation including many superhumans. Many powers aren't going to give any SDC or HP bonuses and as pointed out in Nightbane don't get so cocky just because you've hundreds of SDC as it's quite easy for that to be whittled away in a few melees by sustained gunfire.

Your tank with APS: Air and Sound Control is just as 'wow look at how his head exploded!' to a sniper, including a surprise attack by a mage. He's nothing special and has nothing over the mage. His ranges aren't better than the mage and no character would fair well against a surprise attack targeting its vulnerabilities even a mega-hero mutant.

I get it, you love super-powers. Super-powers however aren't all that and a bag of chips and they certainly don't trump the mage's spells particularly as he accumulates spells and keeps adding to his bag of powers whereas that super's never going to gain any other powers (except for the rare case of the mutant with growing powers who slowly adds a few new powers as he gains levels). Whatever situation you contrive to 'prove' how much a weak infant a mage is you can put together just as many for the super-powered sort. They all have weaknesses and strengths.

First of all I would just like to say that I love mages, which is why this bugs me so much that they are under powered. Second the surprise attack doesnt have to be from the APS air guy, in fact I never even said it was from him. Third a surprise attack on any Mage besides the immortal ones would result in an almost immediately downed mage. Also you state that not many super abilities give you SDC and HP, I think you should look again. APS air does completely trump mages because it says specifically within the powerthat they can contain them for 5 minutes per level in a state where the mags can't cast any spells and just has to sit their taking damage. As for the adding to their bag of tricks, they have to add to their bag before they can take advantage of their versatility. I would also like to point at that at no point in time did I ever stTe that the APS wind with sound control had better range than the Mage, I instead stated that the mages range isn't all that spectacular. I just don't see the mage being all that great unless he has some of his Mage buddies around, plenty of prep time, or the godling factor.

[BurningChaos]

I care about mages because like I said, I like them and I don't like seeing them so (IMO) under powered. I don't care about stage magicians or super sleuths because they don't deserve my empathy.

[BurningChaos]

Yes, well again, no one agrees with you.

And I am perfectly all right with that, but it's no excuse for you to be rude about it. This entire time I have been stating that this is solemnly my opinion, and my opinion alone. I have enjoyed the discussion and debates and I can even say that I have learnt a new appreciation for mages, not enough to make me feel that they are no longer under powered, but it's a start. Secondly it's not your place to state that no one agrees with me, it is your place to state that you don't agree with me, so please keep your opinions your own. Share them if you wish (or in your case if you must) but make sure their yours.

[csbioborg]

just summon rats get a wood chipper and repeat until you get enough ppe

[BurningChaos]

just summon rats get a wood chipper and repeat until you get enough ppe

Lol, thats just awesome, quick question though... Would it actually work?

[Genhuman]

just summon rats get a wood chipper and repeat until you get enough ppe

Lol, thats just awesome, quick question though... Would it actually work?

Some say yes, some say no. Depends on if your GM requires you to ritualistically kill each rat or not. Even then you can still build up quite a bit of PPE.

[Nightmask]

just summon rats get a wood chipper and repeat until you get enough ppe

Lol, thats just awesome, quick question though... Would it actually work?

Some say yes, some say no. Depends on if your GM requires you to ritualistically kill each rat or not. Even then you can still build up quite a bit of PPE.

Those who say no are pixelated. There's absolutely no reason it shouldn't work.

Particularly if you feed them into the chipper in a ritualistic fashion. Not like it being a modern device renders ritualistic behavior in its use forbidden.

[Nightmask]

I thought we were past the whole godling thing. The fact that you have to make Mage a godling in order to point out how good they can be means almost nothing, anything as a godling is fan-freaking-tastic, but as a normal Mage they are just not that great

We were, I've no idea why you reached back into the thread to respond to this and imply that it was more recently brought up than it was.

[Regularguy]

I care about mages because like I said, I like them and I don't like seeing them so (IMO) under powered.

How do you feel about the Mystic Bestowed hero? Give him a heads-up and he casts spells to play mage for the win; catch him off-guard and he's protected by Invulnerability or Bio-Armor or whatever to play superhero and, y'know, not die. Or, if you want a bona fide mage who doesn't go the "godling" route -- or a Mega-Hero mage with Tremendous SDC -- why not a by-the-book alien? Humanoid Mineral from a High Gravity world is, what, an AR of 14, with +180+(3d4x10) SDC and +6d4+10 PS, plus triple the speed and boosted initiative?

[Nightmask]

First of all I would just like to say that I love mages, which is why this bugs me so much that they are under powered. Second the surprise attack doesnt have to be from the APS air guy, in fact I never even said it was from him. Third a surprise attack on any Mage besides the immortal ones would result in an almost immediately downed mage. Also you state that not many super abilities give you SDC and HP, I think you should look again. APS air does completely trump mages because it says specifically within the powerthat they can contain them for 5 minutes per level in a state where the mags can't cast any spells and just has to sit their taking damage. As for the adding to their bag of tricks, they have to add to their bag before they can take advantage of their versatility. I would also like to point at that at no point in time did I ever stTe that the APS wind with sound control had better range than the Mage, I instead stated that the mages range isn't all that spectacular. I just don't see the mage being all that great unless he has some of his Mage buddies around, plenty of prep time, or the godling factor.

It doesn't sound as if you like mages at all as much as you're going on about how utterly worthless they are, to the point of dismissing every point of why they aren't, making out as if any attack on a mage is an automatic hit and everything they do an automatic miss. Just because something has a possibility of doing something doesn't mean it can do it or that it's a given. Mages start with a bag of tricks, one that they can keep adding to as time goes along, with that growth only subject to how biased the GM is towards or against Mages when it comes to spell availability.

In regards to the spell range on mages, yes you have acted as if their range is so inferior that they'd have to be on top of someone to do anything and as if the APS: Air character you suggested was superior in every way and the mage couldn't even attempt to defend himself. All of your arguments just tear down mages, every point is dismissed or torn down or otherwise exaggerated to the detriment of the mage. I can't see how anyone would come away with the conclusion that you love mages when everything you've said contradicts that. You single them out to go on about how their range sucks, spell selection sucks, SDC/HP sucks, can't defend against a sneak sniper attack (against which no one can), don't have any PPE to cast anything, and so on.

For someone who loves mages you've spent a lot of time pointing out how utterly worthless and uninteresting they are and how great and wonderful super-powered sorts like the Mutant and Super-soldier are.

[Nightmask]

I care about mages because like I said, I like them and I don't like seeing them so (IMO) under powered.

How do you feel about the Mystic Bestowed hero? Give him a heads-up and he casts spells to play mage for the win; catch him off-guard and he's protected by Invulnerability or Bio-Armor or whatever to play superhero and, y'know, not die. Or, if you want a bona fide mage who doesn't go the "godling" route -- or a Mega-Hero mage with Tremendous SDC -- why not a by-the-book alien? Humanoid Mineral from a High Gravity world is, what, an AR of 14, with +180+(3d4x10) SDC and +6d4+10 PS, plus triple the speed and boosted initiative?

I imagine all of those would be dismissed for similar reasons as the Godling Immortal were; namely that 'see mages are so weak they can't do anything without adding on something else'. Just as a mutant animal fox mage would be because 'see you had to go to a mutant animal to make up for the low PPE and even that's not good enough'. There's no argument we can provide that won't be dismissed for some reason.

[csbioborg]

just summon rats get a wood chipper and repeat until you get enough ppe

Lol, thats just awesome, quick question though... Would it actually work?

Look up Mack (the moderator) posts on TW
he has effectively invented game legal perpetual resurrection machines
to name a few
the old rats and the woodchipper is bothing compared to how he has completely broken the magic system down

[AlanGunhouse]

I think he was saying he likes comic book mages, not necessarily HU mages (though I might be mistaken).

[Nightmask]

I think he was saying he likes comic book mages, not necessarily HU mages (though I might be mistaken).

Well the average comic book mage isn't a front-line combatant who can survive being sniped either. Dr. Strange for example is totally normal human and trades spells with his opposition and particularly in the early decades frequently ran out of spell energy and had to rest and recover or find a means to tap into magical energy outside of himself to win the battle he was in. Dr. Fate meanwhile had superhuman strength and durability and wasn't a normal human by any stretch of the imagination and even he had to fight with magic most of the time as his opponents were that just more physically super compared to him.

[BurningChaos]

First of all I would just like to say that I love mages, which is why this bugs me so much that they are under powered. Second the surprise attack doesnt have to be from the APS air guy, in fact I never even said it was from him. Third a surprise attack on any Mage besides the immortal ones would result in an almost immediately downed mage. Also you state that not many super abilities give you SDC and HP, I think you should look again. APS air does completely trump mages because it says specifically within the powerthat they can contain them for 5 minutes per level in a state where the mags can't cast any spells and just has to sit their taking damage. As for the adding to their bag of tricks, they have to add to their bag before they can take advantage of their versatility. I would also like to point at that at no point in time did I ever stTe that the APS wind with sound control had better range than the Mage, I instead stated that the mages range isn't all that spectacular. I just don't see the mage being all that great unless he has some of his Mage buddies around, plenty of prep time, or the godling factor.

It doesn't sound as if you like mages at all as much as you're going on about how utterly worthless they are, to the point of dismissing every point of why they aren't, making out as if any attack on a mage is an automatic hit and everything they do an automatic miss. Just because something has a possibility of doing something doesn't mean it can do it or that it's a given. Mages start with a bag of tricks, one that they can keep adding to as time goes along, with that growth only subject to how biased the GM is towards or against Mages when it comes to spell availability.

In regards to the spell range on mages, yes you have acted as if their range is so inferior that they'd have to be on top of someone to do anything and as if the APS: Air character you suggested was superior in every way and the mage couldn't even attempt to defend himself. All of your arguments just tear down mages, every point is dismissed or torn down or otherwise exaggerated to the detriment of the mage. I can't see how anyone would come away with the conclusion that you love mages when everything you've said contradicts that. You single them out to go on about how their range sucks, spell selection sucks, SDC/HP sucks, can't defend against a sneak sniper attack (against which no one can), don't have any PPE to cast anything, and so on.

For someone who loves mages you've spent a lot of time pointing out how utterly worthless and uninteresting they are and how great and wonderful super-powered sorts like the Mutant and Super-soldier are.

Just because I like mages it doesn't mean I can't point out when they are being downplayed, which as pointed out the magic system is highly flawed. First of all APS: air does completely screw over mages you should check it out. I never once stated that anything done to a mage was an automatic hit, in fact I don't remember posing a scenario stating that "[insert character here] hits [insert mage here] putting him down for the count". I never once stated that what a mage does misses, I merely stated that many of the things they do have a saving throw no more no less. I never said that a mage spell will always be save, just that it's a possibility that after spending all their ppe in one huge spell it can still be saved, on the other hand it could not, but I didn't think I would have had to spell that out for you. I also never once in this thread mentioned a mutant or a super-soldier so where your getting that from I have absolutely no idea. As for no one being able to defend themselves against a sneak sniper attack... Are you kidding me... Massive Damage Capacity, Invulnerability, Danger Sense, Zombie Flesh, Multiple Lives, Regeneration Ultima, and much more come to mind. I never stated that the range of mage spells suck, just that they leave something to be desired, am I wrong, I mean even fireball has only a 90 foot range. I am also sorry to think that the mage combat system leaves something to be desired when they have limits to how many spells can be used. To be more specific only two spells can be used from level 1-8 per melee round. This means that you can only use 2 fireballs. Or maybe 2 globes of daylight, or even better yet one globe of daylight and one fireball, each spending two attacks per melee to do not leaving you with all that much afterwards. You can only do one spell level 9-10 in a melee, this includes spells like what... Water to Wine... really. These cost 6 attacks per melee each leaving you with half of more of your attacks blown, but don't worry you have a nice bottle of wine to take the pain away. Spells 11-15 require 2 melee's minimum (excluding teleport). Then you look at a level 15 mystic study with a max PPE of around 300 (excluding overcharge) which is what... 7 bottles of water turned into wine... All I am saying is that with all these factors mages leave a little something to be desired.

How do you feel about the Mystic Bestowed hero? Give him a heads-up and he casts spells to play mage for the win; catch him off-guard and he's protected by Invulnerability or Bio-Armor or whatever to play superhero and, y'know, not die. Or, if you want a bona fide mage who doesn't go the "godling" route -- or a Mega-Hero mage with Tremendous SDC -- why not a by-the-book alien? Humanoid Mineral from a High Gravity world is, what, an AR of 14, with +180+(3d4x10) SDC and +6d4+10 PS, plus triple the speed and boosted initiative?

Interesting proposition on the Alien, but as for the Mystic Bestowed if your giving him super abilities he's only getting 1d4x10 + 10 PPE which doesn't make him much of a mage.

I think he was saying he likes comic book mages, not necessarily HU mages (though I might be mistaken).

Yeah I do like comic book mages, but not just comic book mages, I like the entire mage genre, I even enjoy the HU idea of mages. I like the PPE, the spells, the mysticism, and much more, but the way that there combat works is what bugs me the most.

[AlanGunhouse]

Yeah, I like magic too. In general the only problem with magic in this system (Palladium in general I mean) is that it tends to be slow and easily interrupted, though the fact that high end magic can wear you out with one or two spells is less reasonable in hero genre than most others.

[BurningChaos]

Yeah, I like magic too. In general the only problem with magic in this system (Palladium in general I mean) is that it tends to be slow and easily interrupted, though the fact that high end magic can wear you out with one or two spells is less reasonable in hero genre than most others.

Thank you, someone who understands my frustration. But I see what your getting at as well, some of the spells are pretty good, It's just funny when a hero can be easily succumbed by duck tape applied to the face (slight exaggeration but I think it made my point). I also just wish that the high class spells didn't involve turning water into wine. It just doesn't strike me as a level 9 magic spell, while animating and controlling the dead is only level 7.

[AlanGunhouse]

It does seem a bit odd that it is easier to create food and drink than to transform water to wine.

[BurningChaos]

It does seem a bit odd that it is easier to create food and drink than to transform water to wine.

Lol, never noticed that one before but your right.

On another note, how much ppe would one rat have? Would there be a difference in the PPE of an adult rat and the PPE of a relatively young rat just like their is with adult and teenage humans?

[BurningChaos]

Yeah, I like magic too. In general the only problem with magic in this system (Palladium in general I mean) is that it tends to be slow and easily interrupted, though the fact that high end magic can wear you out with one or two spells is less reasonable in hero genre than most others.

Thank you, someone who understands my frustration. But I see what your getting at as well, some of the spells are pretty good, It's just funny when a hero can be easily succumbed by duck tape applied to the face (slight exaggeration but I think it made my point). I also just wish that the high class spells didn't involve turning water into wine. It just doesn't strike me as a level 9 magic spell, while animating and controlling the dead is only level 7.

Okay, so modify the rules. Rifts Unlimited Edition changed spellcasting so that it's a bit faster with 1st through 5th level spells having a one-per-melee action casting time and 6th level and higher spells taking "two or three" (direct quote, doesn't get any more specific than that) melee actions to cast. That's a canon rule from a different setting you can put into play.

Non-canon things you can do are numerous. You can make spells require gestures only, thus eliminating the vulnerability to APS: Air and Sound Warp that you're so terrified of. This makes good comic book sense for low level spells because how often do you see comic book mages using words for their spells? They generally just point in a funny manner and shoot.

Personally, I find the PPE and ISP system pretty useless for super hero games. Comic book mages and psychics tire of using their powers about as quickly as conventionally powered heroes do. If you choose to keep it, then increase PPE and ISP by an arbitrary amount so a wizard doesn't mission kill himself after a dozen or so spells. Even a simple attack spell like Energy Bolt costs 5 PPE, which will exhaust the average 1st level wizard after fifteen castings or less.

Implement the Techno-Wizard rules from Rifts and give 21st century superheroing wizards the option of building magitech gadgets to pick up the slack should you keep PPE as it is. It's also helpful to be able to snatch up a firebolt wand from your belt when you get hit with that APS: Air effect you're so afraid of.

There. Just a few ideas to even the odds.

These are pretty good ideas, thank you for the input. I will probably use these rules whenever a mage comes into play in a campaign. This would make things a lot more even, thank you once again.

[Regularguy]

How do you feel about the Mystic Bestowed hero? Give him a heads-up and he casts spells to play mage for the win; catch him off-guard and he's protected by Invulnerability or Bio-Armor or whatever to play superhero and, y'know, not die. Or, if you want a bona fide mage who doesn't go the "godling" route -- or a Mega-Hero mage with Tremendous SDC -- why not a by-the-book alien? Humanoid Mineral from a High Gravity world is, what, an AR of 14, with +180+(3d4x10) SDC and +6d4+10 PS, plus triple the speed and boosted initiative?

Interesting proposition on the Alien, but as for the Mystic Bestowed if your giving him super abilities he's only getting 1d4x10 + 10 PPE which doesn't make him much of a mage.

Are you sure? The rules for Mystic Bestowed guys say that spellcasters get rather a lot more PPE than guys with powers; I know which PPE to give a Mystic Bestowed guy who casts spells but has no powers, and which PPE to give a Mystic Bestowed guy who has powers but can't cast spells -- but I honestly don't know which PPE to give a spellcaster who also has a power.

[BurningChaos]

Are you sure? The rules for Mystic Bestowed guys say that spellcasters get rather a lot more PPE than guys with powers; I know which PPE to give a Mystic Bestowed guy who casts spells but has no powers, and which PPE to give a Mystic Bestowed guy who has powers but can't cast spells -- but I honestly don't know which PPE to give a spellcaster who also has a power.

I think that if you are mystically bestowed with a power you only get the 1d4x10 +10 PPE, which for someone with a power is a lot of PPE, and is what allows the character to still be able to cast spells, but seeing as it is not their main specialization they should not have to rely on their spells, and therefore should not need the large amounts of PPE a pure spell caster would need.