Equiping a Squad

[Rockwolf66]

Hey all,

I am in the proccess of equiping a Mercenary Squad for Urban style combat and I'd like some sugestions on equipment. This merc Team is going to be based on the old US MArine squad of a Squad leader and three 4 man fireteams.

the Marine setup was:

Squad leader

FIRETEAM
Fireteam leader
Grenader
Automatic Rifleman
Rifleman

Any sugestions on equipment and or weapons. basically anything up to modern equipment is available.

[Jefffar]

So I'm assuming each fireteam is going to have one grenade launcher and one light machine-gun based on the roles you've listed.

Urban combat tends to be at close range, so I'd suggest a carbine type rifle (ie M-4) or a bull-pup style rifle (ie L85AA2) as the primary arm. Most modern assault rifles have an interface suitable for an under-barrel grenade launcher.

The role of automatic rifleman should take a light machine-gun. Something like an FN Minimi or a CIS Ultimax or HK MG4 would be ideal, though if you are looking lighter and simpler (a plus in urban combat) one of the Colt M16 derived LMGs (available in large capacity drum mag or belt feed conversions) would work pretty well, especially if you are already using M-4s for parts interoperability.

I think your fireteam also needs a dedicated marksman, someone who's job t is to engage point targets beyond the range the assault rifles can. If you've gone with the L85A2 as your primary, the L86A2 LSW would be a good candidate. It is supremely accurate with the built in optic and can hit targets as far out as the 5.56 round remains dangerous. It's also still full auto capable to work as a supplement to the light machinegun in the area suppression role. Many other rifle families have similar extended range versions of the standard rifle (ie M16 DMR) sutible for this role so somethign along those lines would be good.

In all honesty I suggest looking for a weapons family that has variants for all the roles. This ensures that each of the soldiers would be reasonably familiar with each other's weapon if they need to grab it, and inter-commonality of parts and ammunition makes it simpler to conduct field repairs and redistribute ammunition.

Here's a few suggestions of families that might be suitable.

M-16/M-4 Family: From carbine to light machinegun this family has it all. Another plus is that there are more accessories made for this family of weapons than pretty much any other 2 weapons families put together. Highlights include belt feed conversions allowing for this weapon to provide the area suppression capability in LMG mode.

Galil Family: Israeli made derivatives of the Kalashnikov, these weapons are rugged and reliable, but will cost more than an M-16 due to volume. On the plus side the entire range is also available in 7.62 NATO allowing for that added punch. The LMG versions can carry up to 50 rounds, better than almost anything not belt fed.

Steyr AUG: The U stands for universal, with 15 minutes and the proper tools and spare parts you can convert the basic weapon from 9 mm sub-machinegun to 5.56 mm light machinegun and several points in between. Being a bull-pup, full length barrels are smaller allowing you to to keep close quarters manoeuvrability without sacrificing range. The one downside is the LMG version only packs about 40 rounds.

FN SCAR A new concept weapon intended for US Special Forces use to begin with. It has all the configurations you may need except the LMG. Also available in 7.62 NATO and Soviet

Pretty much all of these weapons have an underbarrel grenade launcher option available. Of course that's just my thoughts on primary weapons.

[Dominique]

Depending on how much cash you've got available, I'd suggest back-up weapons, namely pistols. Also, Nomex uniforms and gloves, body armor, ballistic helmets, eye protection, elbow and knee pads, shotguns with breaching rounds, breaching tools (Hooligan tools, bolt cutters, sledge hammers), a couple of battering rams, stun grenades, smoke grenades, CS grenades, frag grenades, protective masks, night vision, tactical lights, first aid kits, blood expanders & IV set-ups (everyone should carry a fist-aid kit, and the initial set-up for an IV, and know how to use it), ropes, grappling hooks, multi-tools, flex cuffs, a good three-day assault pack, some form of secure man portable comms (bone mikes, or at least a cheap ear piece that lugs into your radio), plenty of water, and believe it or not, Silly String (spray it into a room and it'll lay over the top of any trip wires).

[Rockwolf66]

The Squad will definatly be equiped with someone who can counter IEDs. I have family who did at least one tour in Norther ireland and from what I am getting back from the sandbox the insurgents are learning very quickly what it took the IRA thirty years to learn. Then again the IRA used the Middle east as a training area so that shouldn't really suprise me.

I'm thinking.

Team leader: M4A1 with M-203

Fireteam leader: M-4A1
Grenader: M-4A1 with M-203
Automatic Rifleman: MK-46 SAW
Rifleman(Point): MP-5 with suppressor and a Mossberg M-590A1

Fireteam leader: M-4A1
Grenader: M-4A1 with M-203
Automatic Rifleman: MK-46 SAW
Rifleman(Backup pointman): MP-5 with suppressor and a Mossberg M-590A1

Fireteam leader: M-4A1
Grenader: M-4A1 with M-203
Automatic Rifleman: MK-46 SAW
Rifleman(Point): SPR with supressor

I am makeing a couple alternative varient lists one for centeral/ South America and one useing Eastern Block weapons.

[Dominique]

Just out of curiosity, why are you going with the MP-5 SD's? M-4's are just as accurate, have better range and stopping power, and once you start shooting, those silencers aren't really going to mean a damn bit of difference. Once the first few rounds are fired you're depending on speed. One thing I forget to mention earlier was breaching charges. This is where your demo guys come in handy. We were lucky enough to have several sappers attached to us, most of them were on their second deployment and were pretty good at setting charges.

As far as counter IED deceives go, I won't get into to much detail other than saying there are several very small man portable devices available, and they work VERY well.

[tgunner91]

Just remember, they are mercs! Odds are they aren't really going into the field looking like a squad of regulars. Most 'mercs' I've seen were armed with all sorts of firearms. In Iraq, many of them carried various marks of AKs and wore slacks and polo shirts! You can really go to town kitting them out. Check out the Cavalry Catalogue for a nice array of gear that they might have on hand. Also keep in mind that all of their gear is company owned and out-of-pocket so they could have just about anything! It's the 'job' that will dictate what sort of gear that they will be taking into the field.

So here is the real question: What is the job? What does the client expect to be done? What does the contract say? How much money is at stake here?

Once you've answered that then you start kitting out.

[Rockwolf66]

Just out of curiosity, why are you going with the MP-5 SD's? M-4's are just as accurate, have better range and stopping power, and once you start shooting, those silencers aren't really going to mean a damn bit of difference.

I'm going with the MP-5s because they are compact and quiet in an Urban enviroment. I'm sorry to say but there are places where an M-4 does not fit that well in even a western sized dwelling let alone a third worls country where the stairs are shoulder width apart and you have a 90 degree turn at the top. Stealth can be a real lifesaver if one is trying not to get caught takeing the local badguy from his bed in the middle of the night.

Heck when members of said team goes undercover when looking for someone they carry Mini/Micro-Uzi's and MP-5Ks. Basically the team tries to purchase the right weapons for the job at hand.

[Dominique]

I'm going with the MP-5s because they are compact and quiet in an Urban enviroment. I'm sorry to say but there are places where an M-4 does not fit that well in even a western sized dwelling let alone a third worls country where the stairs are shoulder width apart and you have a 90 degree turn at the top. Stealth can be a real lifesaver if one is trying not to get caught takeing the local badguy from his bed in the middle of the night.

I've been a "few" third well dwellings and rally never had a problem with my M-4, and as far as barrel length goes, there are several models that are quick compact (check out the Mk-18 CQBR. I saw sell SEALs sporting them in Iraq), or the DPMS "kitty Kat" that ICE and the US Border Patrol have been testing. If you're worried about noise there are several commercially available silencers on the market, that really don't add much to the over all barrel length, and you can still trick the rifle out (At one point I had a Surefire M900 tactical light, a PAC-4, green laser and M-68 CCO on my M-4). And in some cases a suppressed pistol with subsonic ammo is the better choice for room clearing.

Heck when members of said team goes undercover when looking for someone they carry Mini/Micro-Uzi's and MP-5Ks. Basically the team tries to purchase the right weapons for the job at hand.

[Mercalocalypse]

Another good source for gear and cool pics is Diamondback Tactical. Peltor or Sordin hearing protection could also add game bonuses to perception. Are there any rules for this?

[Dominique]

Another good source for gear and cool pics is Diamondback Tactical. Peltor or Sordin hearing protection could also add game bonuses to perception. Are there any rules for this?

The guys at Diamondback Tactical are good dudes. I met a couple of them at SWAT Roundup a few years back. Their gear is top notch. Not sure about hearing protection adding to Perception, but I could see how not wearing it could inflict a penalty. As far as rules go, you have to house rule them and see what works for you.

[Rockwolf66]

I do know that my Dad has some pretty neat Hearing Protection that Amplifies sound but cuts out if the decible level gets too high. Something like that would provide a bonus.

[Mercalocalypse]

Thats what I was talking about the Peltor Comtacs amplify ambient sound and reduce loud noises such as weapon fire and explosions. My house rules are already rediculous so Im not givin the PC's any more bonuses.

[Colt47]

If you need a designated Urban style sniper on your team you could arm one of them with this nice little piece of hardware: The DSR-1

Link to information (forgive the guys english grammar he is foreign, but his site is a wonderful library of modern and contemporary firearms.) http://www.world.guns.ru/sniper/sn38-e.htm.

I have one on my 21st century assassin character. Unfortunately I don't own any of the modern Recon books so I just take Rifts Mercenaries classes and modify them to be more contemporary.

Price per unit is around 12,000-16,000 USD with all the extra add-on units. From what my research has found, it isn't much cheaper without the extras so you might as well get the whole package. The feature I like most on that particular sniping rifle is the extra magazine storage slot in the front. It lets you switch between anti-personnel and armor piercing without having to reach into your vest for the other magazine. It's also a bull-pup design, which makes the rifle much easier to handle and move around with in urban settings. It's max range is somewhere around 1000 yards regardless of munition type due to air drag. Also, due to the rifles smaller size it makes it a lot harder for the enemy to tell you are a sniper, which can make your life that much safer.

[Rockwolf66]

I know about the "World of Guns" site and I've seen it removed from several Wikipedia gun articles for having too much bad information.

Currently the Team I'm building is in the late 1980's early 1990's tech level so you will see Colt Commando varients(As in Colt selective fire carbines) with M-203 launchers and Aimpoints.

M-60E3s

and other such gear.

As far as Modern Sniper Rifles go I would take a .416 Barret for really long range shooting. Personally I wouldn't entirely trust a rifle that looks like a bech rest wondergun. Besides too many protrusions snag on everything.

[Peacebringer]

Use what ever weapons your enemy is using. That's what Executive Outcomes did to save on logistics costs.


From playing first person shoot games, SMGs are useless until you really, really close.

Shotguns are the best. You don't have to worry about accuracy. But you do have to use them right. Fire, then go back into cover to rooster or reload it.

Assault Rifles are good too. They kill really fast and are accurate. Plus you can shoot through walls. But don't go crazy with them. Don't be a rapid firer, because all you'll do is hit everything but your target.

Hand grenades are wonderful. They might be the best weapon in urban combat. If you have someone that knows how to throw and use a hand grenade, like pulling the pin and waiting a few seconds before they throw it, so it explodes right over the enemy's head, you can't lose. However, somethings, things to bad with hand grenades, like when I throw it wrong and it bounces back to me, and there's not enough time to run because I wanted five seconds before throw it...

RPGs and LAWs are bad. With RPGs, the back blast gives away your position and could harm you or your buddies if you're not careful.

The best thing to have on your squad is a medic. In Cyberpunk 2020 games, a media and a cybertechnician were invaluable. In war, you're going to get shot. It's a fact. You need someone there that can patch it up. In our Cyberpunk 2020 games, limbs would get blown off and a doctor and cybertech would install a cybernetic one.

The down side to Merc games is that any money your mercs make, they will have to pay it in medical bills. Your mercs will be lucky if they make any money at all.

[batlchip]

The Squad will definatly be equiped with someone who can counter IEDs. I have family who did at least one tour in Norther ireland and from what I am getting back from the sandbox the insurgents are learning very quickly what it took the IRA thirty years to learn. Then again the IRA used the Middle east as a training area so that shouldn't really suprise me.

I'm thinking.

Team leader: M4A1 with M-203

Fireteam leader: M-4A1
Grenader: M-4A1 with M-203
Automatic Rifleman: MK-46 SAW
Rifleman(Point): MP-5 with suppressor and a Mossberg M-590A1

Fireteam leader: M-4A1
Grenader: M-4A1 with M-203
Automatic Rifleman: MK-46 SAW
Rifleman(Backup pointman): MP-5 with suppressor and a Mossberg M-590A1

Fireteam leader: M-4A1
Grenader: M-4A1 with M-203
Automatic Rifleman: MK-46 SAW
Rifleman(Point): SPR with supressor

I am makeing a couple alternative varient lists one for centeral/ South America and one useing Eastern Block weapons.

Nice load out but I'd equip my Grenaders with a MGL,Mossberg -590A1,and breaching charges.

[Jefffar]

A support weapon, a separate long arm and a load of demo gear . . . you don't like your grenadiers very much do you?

That out of the way, the grenadier would typically be a stand off player in the assault on a building, using his launcher to provide fire support during the approach and entry, so he shouldn't be close enough to apply breaching charges.

One thing I am thinking about the point-man, instead of a SMG and separate shotgun, why not a combo unit like the KAC MasterKey? You're looking at increased firepower (5.56 vs 9), faster switching between the two weapons (ie don't have to put one away) and you could probably find some subsonic 5.56 rounds and a silencer for the M-4 part of the kit. It would be longer than the suppressed MP-5, but not hugely so.

[batlchip]

A support weapon, a separate long arm and a load of demo gear . . . you don't like your grenadiers very much do you?

That out of the way, the grenadier would typically be a stand off player in the assault on a building, using his launcher to provide fire support during the approach and entry, so he shouldn't be close enough to apply breaching charges.

One thing I am thinking about the point-man, instead of a SMG and separate shotgun, why not a combo unit like the KAC MasterKey? You're looking at increased firepower (5.56 vs 9), faster switching between the two weapons (ie don't have to put one away) and you could probably find some subsonic 5.56 rounds and a silencer for the M-4 part of the kit. It would be longer than the suppressed MP-5, but not hugely so.

Well instead of having to go through the front door or the back I can make my own entrance.The fire team wouldn't have to go around a wall they can go through it.Not to mention it gives the fire team an element of surprize.The MGL has it's pros and cons but I prefer it over loading after every shot.In real life no way would I equipe my Grenadiers like that.

[Jefffar]

I think the breaching charges would be someone other than the grenadier's equipment, you've already loaded him down plenty.

I'm not criticizing the MGL itself, it's a useful weapon, but MGL plus a longarm is a bit of a load and fairly awkward for switching between weapons. A hand gun or a compact submachinegun/PDW makes more sense for the secondary armament in this case.

Maybe something like this.

[JuliusCreed]

Urban Combat also has a high rate of indoor and house-to-house combat. For those tight spaces have someone on point packing an Auto-Shotgun to turn hallways into Hamburger Heaven. AA-12's and Pancor Jackhammers are always a nice choice as well as the venerable H&K CAWS.

[Jefffar]

In regards to full auto from a shotgun in combat. As a general rule, with a shotgun, you only need the one blast anyway. The large footprint of the shot is enough to radically increase the likelihood of a hit. Full auto from a shotgun firing full power rounds tends to have a bit of a control issue, creating an extremely large area in which it is not advisable to be. Saiga makes AK-47 derivatives in 20 gauge and in .410 gauge that would permit greater control in burst fire situations, thus reducing the chances of spill over from the rounds into a non-combatant or hostage.

Another downside with shotguns is that unless you are using slugs, the armour penetration is rather poor. Seeing as slugs remove the main advantage of using the shotgun in close combat (the higher hit chance with little aiming time), in combat shotguns are generally loaded with shot or specialized less lethal rounds (which generally don't cycle in automatic shotguns btw).

I agree a shotgun is a great indoor combat weapon, however the point-man is going to encounter really wide variety of circumstances first and he may find himself in a situation where the shotgun may be a disadvantage (ie non-combatants in the room with the target or a target wearing body armour) and he might find himself there on short notice (ie not enough time to change weapons or change ammunition loads).

That's why I suggested a combo weapon using a compact assault rifle and a shotgun mounted together. Depending on the target conditions, the point-man can switch between a blast of buck shot, a single rifle round (which would penetrate most body armour at the point blank ranges we are discussing) or automatic rifle fire without having to switch weapons or even adjust his grip on the weapon. That sort of combo of firepower and flexibility is hard to beat.

[batlchip]

I think the breaching charges would be someone other than the grenadier's equipment, you've already loaded him down plenty.

I'm not criticizing the MGL itself, it's a useful weapon, but MGL plus a longarm is a bit of a load and fairly awkward for switching between weapons. A hand gun or a compact submachinegun/PDW makes more sense for the secondary armament in this case.

Maybe something like this.

Okay your right about the awkard switching of weapons.I don't realy know about thE PDW?How about the P90 instead it's compact and can use a silencer.?I'm gonna go crazy here and say the best MGL I ever saw was the M49A1 from a certain movie.But the military doesn't make those(sigh).Don't get me wrong I love the 203, it's just I would like my Grenadiers to be able to engage several targets without having to stop and reload after each shot.

[Jefffar]

Apparently Singapore and Sweden are collaborating on a repeating 40 mm which also has a built in 5.7mm PDW. Allegedly it will have an airburst capability.

Australia is looking at an over-barrel repeating 40 mm weapon for it's Steyr AUG rifles.

South Korea managed to get a repeating 20 mm airburst weapon mated to a 5.56 mm rifle (yup, hat's right Korea got the OICW working before the USA).

So there is quite a bit of research in the field of making sure the grenadier can fire repeatedly with his grenade launcher and also engage targets with an automatic weapon without switching weapons.

[batlchip]

Let's hope the military starts working on one that's better then them.

[Jefffar]

Well the one the Koreans made is essentially identical to the goal product for the OICW - except they actually finished it at an appropriate weight and price to make it a weapon that could be issued in every squad.

[Wooly]

Hey all,

I am in the proccess of equiping a Mercenary Squad for Urban style combat and I'd like some sugestions on equipment. This merc Team is going to be based on the old US MArine squad of a Squad leader and three 4 man fireteams.

the Marine setup was:

Squad leader

FIRETEAM
Fireteam leader
Grenader
Automatic Rifleman
Rifleman

Any sugestions on equipment and or weapons. basically anything up to modern equipment is available.

This is wrong the MTOE hasn't really changed in 20 years. I spent 8 years in the Marine Corps Infantry in LAR Battalions.

Team Leader/Grenadier M16A4 w/M203 The logic being that the team leader can use the M203 to direct fire when necessary (from his own team, weapons teams, other units, vehicles ground and air)

Automatic Rifleman M249 SAW (Now a choice between M27 IAR and M249 depending on mission/MTOE)

Assistant Automatic Rifleman M16A4

Rifleman M16A4

[Wooly]

In regards to full auto from a shotgun in combat. As a general rule, with a shotgun, you only need the one blast anyway. The large footprint of the shot is enough to radically increase the likelihood of a hit. Full auto from a shotgun firing full power rounds tends to have a bit of a control issue, creating an extremely large area in which it is not advisable to be. Saiga makes AK-47 derivatives in 20 gauge and in .410 gauge that would permit greater control in burst fire situations, thus reducing the chances of spill over from the rounds into a non-combatant or hostage.

Another downside with shotguns is that unless you are using slugs, the armour penetration is rather poor. Seeing as slugs remove the main advantage of using the shotgun in close combat (the higher hit chance with little aiming time), in combat shotguns are generally loaded with shot or specialized less lethal rounds (which generally don't cycle in automatic shotguns btw).

I agree a shotgun is a great indoor combat weapon, however the point-man is going to encounter really wide variety of circumstances first and he may find himself in a situation where the shotgun may be a disadvantage (ie non-combatants in the room with the target or a target wearing body armour) and he might find himself there on short notice (ie not enough time to change weapons or change ammunition loads).

That's why I suggested a combo weapon using a compact assault rifle and a shotgun mounted together. Depending on the target conditions, the point-man can switch between a blast of buck shot, a single rifle round (which would penetrate most body armour at the point blank ranges we are discussing) or automatic rifle fire without having to switch weapons or even adjust his grip on the weapon. That sort of combo of firepower and flexibility is hard to beat.

Shotguns loaded with buck spread at approx 1 inch per yard from the muzzle. Not enough to increase the likelyhood of a hit in MOUT where shooting is under 3 yards.

In my experince the shotguns is not that great for (urban or otherwise) combat. They are fowling pieces. Compared to a M16A4 or M4 Carbine They are a pain in the a$$ to reload, it is hard to carry ammunition at the ready without taking up alot of real estate on your LBE. They are less handy then a carbine and follow up shots are harder to make. You have no ammuniton compatabilty with the rest of the team. They are more useful as a breaching tool then a weapon. Magazine fed shotguns like the SAIGA-12 don't pass the relability test in my opnion. My personal combat experince has been with the Mossberg 500 and the Benelli M1014.

The idea of using burst fire in MOUT is a dated and no longer used. It is dangerous, harder to control and will result in fratricide in the chaos of room clearing. Fast, precision "point" shooting is what is currently taught. What are you going to load in those SAIGA-12s that won't over penetrate? Buckshot and slugs will over penetrate. Bird shot doesn't meeth minimum penetration requirements in ballastic gel for lethality. They are great for blowing off hinges and door knobs and less lethal.

The last thing I would want to carry as he first man in the stack entering a room with hostiles is a heavy cumbersome dual purpose weapon you suggest. I want a very light weight M4 weapon with a 30 round magazine, tac light and red dot optic (i.e. M68 CCO)

[Rockwolf66]

This is wrong the MTOE hasn't really changed in 20 years. I spent 8 years in the Marine Corps Infantry in LAR Battalions.

Team Leader/Grenadier M16A4 w/M203 The logic being that the team leader can use the M203 to direct fire when necessary (from his own team, weapons teams, other units, vehicles ground and air)

Automatic Rifleman M249 SAW (Now a choice between M27 IAR and M249 depending on mission/MTOE)

Assistant Automatic Rifleman M16A4

Rifleman M16A4

Well my copy of the "Guidebook For MARINES" is dated 1982 so the information there is rather dated but still great for historic games set between 1980 and about 1990. After that I realize there were alot of changes and between 2000 and now alot more. I tend to use it as a base squad layout and then change it to fit the setting peramiters.