Why don't the Gods fight the Splugorth?

[Kelorin]

Well then, the planning of any attack should be left in the hands of Athena, who is the smart when it comes to military strategy and tactics.

If the Splugorth all have dimension spanning empires, then it is not unreasonable to assume that the Norse and Greek Pantheons also have considerable extradimensional resources. Those holdings may not be as extensive as those under the control of Splynncryth, but they shouldn't be ignored either.

I would also assume that Zeus and Odin have access to Deific Powers as described in the PF Dragons and Gods book.

But what it comes down to is this: Atlantis was once the crown jewel of the Greek Pantheon's Empire. That is the past. The True Atlanteans are scattered, and don't seem to all that interested in retaking the continent either. Some clans have entire planets at their disposal. So why bother fighting a massive multi-dimensional war over an ancient homeland that no one wants anymore?

[RainOfSteel]

yea. take zillions of overloards. now give each of them a 5d6 MD dealing rifle per shot. they'll kill a few million hundred handed per melee round. and sinse the hundrend handed have the tacticle sense of a five year old child playing aginst a chess grandmaster, they'll going to walk helplessly into a shooting gallery. and that's assuming the splurgorth play nice.

That only happens if you use the ridiculous write-up of the Hundred-Handed in CB2.

You know, if the Hundred-Handed were capable of keeping the Titans imprisoned, then their stats, including IQ, are going to be better than what is listed.

a single carpet of adhesion and a hundred handed is a sitting duck.

I think that would be two carpets, one for each foot.

In any event, the same applies to both sides.

[RainOfSteel]

Well then, the planning of any attack should be left in the hands of Athena, who is the smart when it comes to military strategy and tactics.

You know, Ares is the god of war. He would be in on it in a second.

I think it would be a mistake to underestimate the effect his involvement would have on grand strategy and large unit tactics.

If the Splugorth all have dimension spanning empires, then it is not unreasonable to assume that the Norse and Greek Pantheons also have considerable extradimensional resources.

This is absolutely correct.

Those holdings may not be as extensive as those under the control of Splynncryth, but they shouldn't be ignored either.

There is no information present about the resources of the gods in CB2. Even the available canon information about Splynncryth's resources outside of Atlantis is largely vague.

It's really up the GM. IMRU, Splynncryth has a lot more resources than those listed. Atlantis is just one satellite of his much larger transdimensional empire. The gods, though . . . they're gods and are in no way slouches when it comes to their bailiwick (read that as I believe the CB2 write-ups wimp-out the gods and their accoutrements in everything but MDC, though I do not). They've been around for a long time and have extensive resources.

I would also assume that Zeus and Odin have access to Deific Powers as described in the PF Dragons and Gods book.

<sigh />

I suppose I'm going to be forced to pick up this book.

So why bother fighting a massive multi-dimensional war over an ancient homeland that no one wants anymore?

Pride, hope, dreams, stupidity.

-----------------------------------------------------

In the end, who has more resources due to whatever reasons, Splynncryth or the gods, rests entirely in the GMs design of their milieu. If the GM doesn't believe the gods can take Atlantis, they can't, and vice-versa.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Well then, the planning of any attack should be left in the hands of Athena, who is the smart when it comes to military strategy and tactics.

and still inferior to splyncryth, sorry.

If the Splugorth all have dimension spanning empires, then it is not unreasonable to assume that the Norse and Greek Pantheons also have considerable extradimensional resources. Those holdings may not be as extensive as those under the control of Splynncryth, but they shouldn't be ignored either.

no, they shouldn't be. however the logicists of an interdimensional war are a nightmare and a half even for gods.

note though: splyncryth has pyramids all thought his empire which allows for more or less instant transportation of troops and supplies to all major points of his empire. the greeks don't. it's a logistical advantage that's a generals wet dream

I would also assume that Zeus and Odin have access to Deific Powers as described in the PF Dragons and Gods book.

Yes. I would also assume splyncryth does too as Dragons and Gods also gives those powers to alien intelligences.

But what it comes down to is this: Atlantis was once the crown jewel of the Greek Pantheon's Empire. That is the past. The True Atlanteans are scattered, and don't seem to all that interested in retaking the continent either. Some clans have entire planets at their disposal. So why bother fighting a massive multi-dimensional war over an ancient homeland that no one wants anymore?

definte point

[Nekira Sudacne]

yea. take zillions of overloards. now give each of them a 5d6 MD dealing rifle per shot. they'll kill a few million hundred handed per melee round. and sinse the hundrend handed have the tacticle sense of a five year old child playing aginst a chess grandmaster, they'll going to walk helplessly into a shooting gallery. and that's assuming the splurgorth play nice.

That only happens if you use the ridiculous write-up of the Hundred-Handed in CB2.

geeee, "i'm only right if we don't use the rules"

sorry, not accepting that argument

You know, if the Hundred-Handed were capable of keeping the Titans imprisoned, then their stats, including IQ, are going to be better than what is listed.

except the hundrend handed ARN'T imprisioning the titans in RIFTS. Hades is doing that personally, with help from hepehstus

a single carpet of adhesion and a hundred handed is a sitting duck.

I think that would be two carpets, one for each foot.

In any event, the same applies to both sides.

not really. they couldn't get close enough to CoA zillions of overlords. not mentioning the fact that even stuck they can still shoot.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Assuming of course that those numbers are available - let's face it, if anyone were going to attack Atlantis for any reason, priority #1 in their planning would be to prevent dimensional travel in or out for the duration of the assault and cleanup - /how/ they might do that is another, and altogether more complicated question - but let's not forget about it.

Well, we are all apparently forgetting that Sploogie has enough forces at his Atlantis Garrison alone to conquer the Earth.

First pointed out in Rifts: Atlantis.

The Splugorth are also, apparently more than a match for any one Pantheon.

The Splugorth are on a "Peace Treaty" with the Egyptian Pantheon ("peace" as in they look the other way as long as their machinations don't affect the other's Sphere of Influence), and they laugh in the face of the Greek Pantheon -whose Gods simmer at the thought of having to skulk around the Splugorth.

First pointed out in Rifts: Pantheons of the Megaverse.

Lets not forget Thor severely wounded a splugorth without his stuff so its not numbers its about who you get to help

Thor also got some inside help remember, and was able to actually challange the splurgorth in one on one combat where nither of their minions could participate.

an invasion of atlantis would take more than that.

sadly that is people normally think around here, numbers win , not tactics

zues knows he cant take atlantis down as long as the have numbers but if you can control the battlefield you dont need numbers

hate being the newbie juming into a long rangeing debate, but I have to call you on this. When have numbers lost to tactics. When has the side of a war who is more willing to lose troops lost?
With out some sort of force multiplier the side with the most troops always wins (the british did defeate the Zulus, but the brits had a lot of Indian auxileries and rifles vs sticks). The gods do not have a force multiplier vs. the AI

yes while this might the case in the real world in Rifts, there are normally any number of third parties that could be useful,

example thru beta archie is operating in the area and has stockpiles a large number of mechinoids styled robots, zues has a couple of his followers get captured and sent to the slave pens , nice place to gain followers, makes dealings with some of the other gods to strike back at the splugorth on other planets in exchange for help or or empires for help in exchange for something, so in the end the splugorth could be defeated or defeat zues and his allies or be locked in a stalemate, but this has endless amount of ways it could go, but to say it will go only one way is foolish at best

[whulfgar]

Splynn has entier races with which to do as he deems fit. Not to mention he is an A.I. not just some push over . The only way I could see the downfall of Splynn is if some random suicide God/gods A. found out Splynns where abouts an B had the ability to port magically there to do a Deific godblaze directly at Lord Splynn . Thus taking himself out in the process .That is not saying that Atlantis itself would fall just that it would be a viable way to actually kill Lord Splynn . Atlantis would inveriably live on albiet who knows what effect Lord Splynn's death would have on the atlantis empire.

[RainOfSteel]

yea. take zillions of overloards. [...]

That only happens if you use the ridiculous write-up of the Hundred-Handed in CB2.

geeee, "i'm only right if we don't use the rules"

sorry, not accepting that argument

I wasn't making an argument per se, I was stating my opinion of the given stats of the gods and their equipment in CB2 (and, indirectly, those in WB4:Africa).

They are absolute wimps . . . for beings carrying the names of legendary gods.

Ha, ha, I'm Zeus! But I better not get into a toe to toe fight with one space battleship, I'll lose! Baloney.

There is nothing you need to accept.

(In any event, the gods themselves aren't the rules of the game. It's an infinite Megaverse, the gods in CB2 aren't the only ones that exist, and there may easily gods out there with stats and equipment/allies you could believe in as belonging to real gods instead of poseurs.)

You know, if the Hundred-Handed were capable of keeping the Titans imprisoned, then their stats, including IQ, are going to be better than what is listed.

except the hundrend handed ARN'T imprisioning the titans in RIFTS.

Yes, I know, a substantial difference of opinion between actual myth and CB2.

The Hundred-Handed were, for some reason, given the proverbial shaft in CB2. I have no idea why, and feel no need to agree with it.

a single carpet of adhesion and a hundred handed is a sitting duck.

I think that would be two carpets, one for each foot.
In any event, the same applies to both sides.

not really. they couldn't get close enough to CoA zillions of overlords. not mentioning the fact that even stuck they can still shoot.

You don't think it would take two CoA to get one Hundred-Handed?

And yes, if you're talking about overall numbers, it would take too many CoA to get the minions by comparison to the few Hundred Handed, and a great many of them would be airborne (by one method or another) anyway.

But that is the whole point about the Hundred-Handed . . . in myth they were seriously powerful beings, they tipped the Titan-God war in the favor of the gods and were the ones who kept the Titans in their prisons. In CB2 they're oversized simpleton babies in diapers who have terrible combat stats, major mental vulnerabilities, and only one real advantage, a huge MDC value. The CB2 versions are completely unimportant, could never have tipped the balance of much of anything, and shouldn't even be listed in the book. Perhaps an entry on Bart Simpson should take up the slot of the Hundred-Handed's description in the second revised version of CB2? Bart isn't a god or divine being, and his legend-myth isn't that old, but at least the little animated, irreverent, joking, semi-monster in human form might actually be more interesting to read about.

If you want to view the Olympian gods (and the others) in this manner, one where everything they should have and be capable of is wimped out and gimped out, then by all means, use CB2 as given.

[RainOfSteel]

[...] When have numbers lost to tactics.

Spartacus vs. the Romans.

When has the side of a war who is more willing to lose troops lost?

US vs. Japan, WWII

[RainOfSteel]

Well then, the planning of any attack should be left in the hands of Athena, who is the smart when it comes to military strategy and tactics.

and still inferior to splyncryth, sorry.

Given that the write-up in CB2 for the goddess of war and wisdom gives her no special capabilities in war or wisdom (another strike against CB2), you may be right. But then again, the write-up in WB2:Atlantis doesn't give Splynncryth any special advantage in this regard, either. Splynncryth gets 3 points of IQ over Athena, and that is it.

If the Splugorth all have dimension spanning empires [...]

[...] the logicists of an interdimensional war are a nightmare and a half even for gods.

note though: splyncryth has pyramids all thought his empire which allows for more or less instant transportation of troops and supplies to all major points of his empire. the greeks don't. it's a logistical advantage that's a generals wet dream

The Norse pantheon has Bifrost, a gate that leads out of Asgard to anywhere. That beats a pyramid any day of the week in regards to interdimensional transport, as it is not restricted in its exit points, including in the middle of Splynn's main garrisons (100K troops and a god in this garrison, 100K troops and a god in that garrison . . . that would be quite a surprise factor*).

If the Norse and Greek pantheons cooperate, then the Greeks will have access to Bifrost, as well. Fresh troops move in wherever they're needed, and troops in trouble are yanked out to safety, healing, and so on (right out from under their attackers and/or what would have been certain doom).

---------------------------------------------

* IMRU, this type of attack is a little too obvious, and there are dimensional barriers and booby traps awaiting anyone silly enough to try and drop into Altantis' primary city garrisons and command centers (ditto for most other major powers).

[RainOfSteel]

* IMRU, this type of attack is a little too obvious, and there are dimensional barriers and ****** traps awaiting anyone silly enough to try and drop into Altantis' primary city garrisons and command centers (ditto for most other major powers).

Apparently our beloved censor will trap even common usage English words, such as the title of Robotech's first episode.

[cornholioprime]

* IMRU, this type of attack is a little too obvious, and there are dimensional barriers and ****** traps awaiting anyone silly enough to try and drop into Altantis' primary city garrisons and command centers (ditto for most other major powers).

Apparently our beloved censor will trap even common usage English words, such as the title of Robotech's first episode.

But I can still say "Booty" and get away with it.

I feel like "Letterman," now......

(the old Electric Company Superhero, not the Late Night TV Show Host)

[Nekira Sudacne]

yea. take zillions of overloards. [...]

That only happens if you use the ridiculous write-up of the Hundred-Handed in CB2.

geeee, "i'm only right if we don't use the rules"

sorry, not accepting that argument

I wasn't making an argument per se, I was stating my opinion of the given stats of the gods and their equipment in CB2 (and, indirectly, those in WB4:Africa).

They are absolute wimps . . . for beings carrying the names of legendary gods.

Ha, ha, I'm Zeus! But I better not get into a toe to toe fight with one space battleship, I'll lose! Baloney.

There is nothing you need to accept.

(In any event, the gods themselves aren't the rules of the game. It's an infinite Megaverse, the gods in CB2 aren't the only ones that exist, and there may easily gods out there with stats and equipment/allies you could believe in as belonging to real gods instead of poseurs.)

You know, if the Hundred-Handed were capable of keeping the Titans imprisoned, then their stats, including IQ, are going to be better than what is listed.

except the hundrend handed ARN'T imprisioning the titans in RIFTS.

Yes, I know, a substantial difference of opinion between actual myth and CB2.

The Hundred-Handed were, for some reason, given the proverbial shaft in CB2. I have no idea why, and feel no need to agree with it.

a single carpet of adhesion and a hundred handed is a sitting duck.

I think that would be two carpets, one for each foot.
In any event, the same applies to both sides.

not really. they couldn't get close enough to CoA zillions of overlords. not mentioning the fact that even stuck they can still shoot.

You don't think it would take two CoA to get one Hundred-Handed?

And yes, if you're talking about overall numbers, it would take too many CoA to get the minions by comparison to the few Hundred Handed, and a great many of them would be airborne (by one method or another) anyway.

But that is the whole point about the Hundred-Handed . . . in myth they were seriously powerful beings, they tipped the Titan-God war in the favor of the gods and were the ones who kept the Titans in their prisons. In CB2 they're oversized simpleton babies in diapers who have terrible combat stats, major mental vulnerabilities, and only one real advantage, a huge MDC value. The CB2 versions are completely unimportant, could never have tipped the balance of much of anything, and shouldn't even be listed in the book. Perhaps an entry on Bart Simpson should take up the slot of the Hundred-Handed's description in the second revised version of CB2? Bart isn't a god or divine being, and his legend-myth isn't that old, but at least the little animated, irreverent, joking, semi-monster in human form might actually be more interesting to read about.

If you want to view the Olympian gods (and the others) in this manner, one where everything they should have and be capable of is wimped out and gimped out, then by all means, use CB2 as given.

I use the books stats because I don't want to bother going though and making my own.

I should also note my entire knowlage of greek myth comes from the Hercules and Xena shows that were aired a few years ago and a few excepts from the Oddesy.

I can accept whats in CB2, because I have no concept of the true myths.

[RainOfSteel]

I should also note my entire knowlage of greek myth comes from the Hercules and Xena shows that were aired a few years ago and a few excepts from the Oddesy.

I can accept whats in CB2, because I have no concept of the true myths.

I too watched Hurclues and Xena. They were great schlock adventure shows. But they mixed 5000 years of myth into a 3-5 year period in both series. In some cases, they even did an good job IMO (I especially like the Hurcules/Xena cross-over where fire was taken away from humanity), and in some cases, they produced some groaners. The best episodes tended to concentrate toward the earlier seasons.

Overall you are missing out on some great stories that are the foundation of much of Western myth (Greek literature is behind a good chunk of Western literature, too).

I have read a variety of books on Greek and Norse mythology (lots more on the Norse gods), and am something of a minor ethusiast (very minor). I found some of CB2 to be acceptable, and some of what it did not to be acceptable. The Megaverse's infinite nature makes this an easy fix, as we're not talking about rules mechanics.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I should also note my entire knowlage of greek myth comes from the Hercules and Xena shows that were aired a few years ago and a few excepts from the Oddesy.

I can accept whats in CB2, because I have no concept of the true myths.

I too watched Hurclues and Xena. They were great schlock adventure shows. But they mixed 5000 years of myth into a 3-5 year period in both series. In some cases, they even did an good job IMO (I especially like the Hurcules/Xena cross-over where fire was taken away from humanity), and in some cases, they produced some groaners. The best episodes tended to concentrate toward the earlier seasons.

Overall you are missing out on some great stories that are the foundation of much of Western myth (Greek literature is behind a good chunk of Western literature, too).

I have read a variety of books on Greek and Norse mythology (lots more on the Norse gods), and am something of a minor ethusiast (very minor). I found some of CB2 to be acceptable, and some of what it did not to be acceptable. The Megaverse's infinite nature makes this an easy fix, as we're not talking about rules mechanics.

ah. so what DID you find acceptable in CB2? I've heard nothing but complaints so far. (just curious)

[cornholioprime]

I should also note my entire knowlage of greek myth comes from the Hercules and Xena shows that were aired a few years ago and a few excepts from the Oddesy.

I can accept whats in CB2, because I have no concept of the true myths.

I too watched Hurclues and Xena. They were great schlock adventure shows. But they mixed 5000 years of myth into a 3-5 year period in both series. In some cases, they even did an good job IMO (I especially like the Hurcules/Xena cross-over where fire was taken away from humanity), and in some cases, they produced some groaners. The best episodes tended to concentrate toward the earlier seasons.

Overall you are missing out on some great stories that are the foundation of much of Western myth (Greek literature is behind a good chunk of Western literature, too).

I have read a variety of books on Greek and Norse mythology (lots more on the Norse gods), and am something of a minor ethusiast (very minor). I found some of CB2 to be acceptable, and some of what it did not to be acceptable. The Megaverse's infinite nature makes this an easy fix, as we're not talking about rules mechanics.

ah. so what DID you find acceptable in CB2? I've heard nothing but complaints so far. (just curious)

He probably liked the Zeleznik Painting of the Cyber-Thor on the Front Cover.

And maybe Brahma.

[rat_bastard]

looking at the origional question I guess the answer comes in two parts.

#1 no one oantheon can take the splugorith, none of them really have what it takes yet, and they do not want to risk their imoratlity in an attempt that will most likly fail, or worse end up as a rune weapon for all of eternity.

#2 all the various pantheons thrive on worship, and they all want all the worship that can be offered, so they are unwilling to work with other pantheons because it would force them to divide their power source, the worship of mortals. Hence no two pantheons are going to work together closely enought to topple the splugorith.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

personally i found the fake "gods" more fun then the real ones, but it does come across as the typical standard gods of the ancient world vs something new like having ares and atheana switching places, Ares is a heroic warrior god , and Athena as the war monging type, Zues has the uncaring father type, and Hera as the loving step mother, protecting her step childern, vs something off the the Herc/xena tv show

[RainOfSteel]

ah. so what DID you find acceptable in CB2? I've heard nothing but complaints so far. (just curious)

You didn't read the 10 Best Rifts Books of All Time? topic, then?

I liked the artwork throughout most of it (I'm a fan of Vince Martin's PB work).

I also liked the ideas and overall general information presented, and the fact that they did a book like this that acknolwedged that the gods of more than just the Egyptian pantheon (seen in Africa) or the PFRPG pantheon gods were running around. Since I had been writing up my own PB Norse gods versions since right after Africa came out, I was happy with that.

Unfortunately, it is in some of the specifics that I disagree.

• Didn't you notice the . . . ah, rather odd way the female goddesses were treated?
  
  • Hera is hearing voices and is totally psychotic.
  • Athena is the goddess of war and wisdom, but has no special capabilities in that regard.
  • Aphrodite's description spends quite a bit of time deriding her amorous activities.
  • Freya is captured and given a potion that makes her hate the touch of men and hate herself for having had sex with them, she is contemplating suicide. It fails to mention that she is a warrior goddess (and a list of other things).
  • Hel is mad and wants to become a cyborg and rift in the Mechanoids.
• I didn't like the impersonator deities (the fake pantheons). I would have rather seen additional real pantheons, but that's me.
• The write-ups all have pathetically low attacks/melee.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

ah. so what DID you find acceptable in CB2? I've heard nothing but complaints so far. (just curious)

You didn't read the 10 Best Rifts Books of All Time? topic, then?

I liked the artwork throughout most of it (I'm a fan of Vince Martin's PB work).

I also liked the ideas and overall general information presented, and the fact that they did a book like this that acknolwedged that the gods of more than just the Egyptian pantheon (seen in Africa) or the PFRPG pantheon gods were running around. Since I had been writing up my own PB Norse gods versions since right after Africa came out, I was happy with that.

Unfortunately, it is in some of the specifics that I disagree.

• Didn't you notice the . . . ah, rather odd way the female goddesses were treated?
  
  • Hera is hearing voices and is totally psychotic.
  • Athena is the goddess of war and wisdom, but has no special capabilities in that regard.
  • Aphrodite's description spends quite a bit of time deriding her amorous activities.
  • Freya is captured and given a potion that makes her hate the touch of men and hate herself for having had sex with them, she is contemplating suicide. It fails to mention that she is a warrior goddess (and a list of other things).
  • Hel is mad and wants to become a cyborg and rift in the Mechanoids.
• I didn't like the impersonator deities (the fake pantheons). I would have rather seen additional real pantheons, but that's me.
• The write-ups all have pathetically low attacks/melee.

omg dont get me started with the entire book , as a whole
the fake ones are more better then the real ones

[RainOfSteel]

omg dont get me started with the entire book , as a whole
the fake ones are more better then the real ones

Well, the actual listings for the "real" gods leave many things to be desired, but the fakes were all laughable jokes, even more pathetic that the so-called "real" gods. I could barely read the sections involved, all I could keep thinking was, "I hope you never do run into the real thing, because you're going to get your yoinkers kicked up around your zoinkers." Worse, with the information networks, divinatory senses, spells, or magical items available to the real gods, the fakes would be tracked down in short order and disposed of, probably in quite spectacularly public ways. It would be more thorough and pointed than a mob hit.