"MDC is the new SDC"

[Killer Cyborg]

Like the example says, you can shoot a tank all day with a .45 and not damage it. Some materials are just too strong for most weapons.

The pistol simply does not have the PV to damage the tank.

Sure, if you house-rule and extrapolate a lot.
Like I said, PV could fix things... it just doesn't.

The tanks AR is also so high that the vast majority of shots will simply bounce off.

Right.
But not all of them.
Which means that if you aim well, your .45 CAN damage tank armor.

[Sentinel]

Like the example says, you can shoot a tank all day with a .45 and not damage it. Some materials are just too strong for most weapons.

The pistol simply does not have the PV to damage the tank.

Sure, if you house-rule and extrapolate a lot.
Like I said, PV could fix things... it just doesn't.

That's not a House Rule: the .45 has a PV of 4 or 5. The Tank has a Resistance of between 9 and 11. In order to damage the tank, the PV needs to at least be more than 9, and a .50 calibre rifle has an 8. So, you can forget small arms right away.
By contrast in Rifts, I can get through a Glitter Boy with a 2D6 Ion pistol, and all I need to do is roll 5 or better.

The tanks AR is also so high that the vast majority of shots will simply bounce off.

Right.
But not all of them.
Which means that if you aim well, your .45 CAN damage tank armor.

Or, if I aim well, I can shoot through a slot, or damage something not armoured, or less armoured.
And, the game supports the Natural 20 as the ultimate hit: nothing is so well armoured that a N20 doesn't do it's double damage (although the .45 still won't pierce: it'll just scratch the outside).
Again, that's more than you can say for shooting an IAR 2 Abolisher with a Wilks pistol.

[KLM]

- The PS is flawed. the 150 tons Triax Devastator with its
PS 60 can lift 2700 kgs. (6000 lbs). Looks like that even
the giant rifle is heavier.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a ruling that anything can lift its own weight to get up off the ground, and that the strength rating is just for carrying things that aren't a part of the object?

Excuse me, I expect the Triax eggheads to give at least
a 10% "overpower" for a robot vehicle - and it is 15 tons
in the case of the Devastator - it is like lifting about 20 pounds
with one arm for an adult male Homo Sapiens. "No roll needed"
task.

After all, the fluff tex goes " With a sweep of its mighty arm, the
bot would knock away four or five attackers" (ie. gurgoyles).
Now, four or five gurgoyles CAN pin down a Devastator just by
brute force (and according to statistics).

Adios
KLM

[Killer Cyborg]

Like the example says, you can shoot a tank all day with a .45 and not damage it. Some materials are just too strong for most weapons.

The pistol simply does not have the PV to damage the tank.

Sure, if you house-rule and extrapolate a lot.
Like I said, PV could fix things... it just doesn't.

That's not a House Rule: the .45 has a PV of 4 or 5. The Tank has a Resistance of between 9 and 11. In order to damage the tank, the PV needs to at least be more than 9, and a .50 calibre rifle has an 8. So, you can forget small arms right away.
By contrast in Rifts, I can get through a Glitter Boy with a 2D6 Ion pistol, and all I need to do is roll 5 or better.

Give me a page number on the PV info.

The tanks AR is also so high that the vast majority of shots will simply bounce off.

Right.
But not all of them.
Which means that if you aim well, your .45 CAN damage tank armor.

Or, if I aim well, I can shoot through a slot, or damage something not armoured, or less armoured.

You could, but the AR flaws apply even when shooting at something that is evenly armored and has no slots.

And, the game supports the Natural 20 as the ultimate hit: nothing is so well armoured that a N20 doesn't do it's double damage (although the .45 still won't pierce: it'll just scratch the outside).

True.
But that's a different flaw, and Mega-Damage addresses it to a point.
A nat 20 SDC attack still won't damage a MDC structure.

Again, that's more than you can say for shooting an IAR 2 Abolisher with a Wilks pistol.

True. But then again, a Wilk's pistol SHOULD be able to damage an Abolisher. It's a mega-damage weapon.

[Sentinel]

Like the example says, you can shoot a tank all day with a .45 and not damage it. Some materials are just too strong for most weapons.

The pistol simply does not have the PV to damage the tank.

Sure, if you house-rule and extrapolate a lot.
Like I said, PV could fix things... it just doesn't.

That's not a House Rule: the .45 has a PV of 4 or 5. The Tank has a Resistance of between 9 and 11. In order to damage the tank, the PV needs to at least be more than 9, and a .50 calibre rifle has an 8. So, you can forget small arms right away.
By contrast in Rifts, I can get through a Glitter Boy with a 2D6 Ion pistol, and all I need to do is roll 5 or better.

Give me a page number on the PV info.

HU GMG. I don't have the page number (or the rest of the book) with me.

The tanks AR is also so high that the vast majority of shots will simply bounce off.

Right.
But not all of them.
Which means that if you aim well, your .45 CAN damage tank armor.

Or, if I aim well, I can shoot through a slot, or damage something not armoured, or less armoured.

You could, but the AR flaws apply even when shooting at something that is evenly armored and has no slots.

And, the game supports the Natural 20 as the ultimate hit: nothing is so well armoured that a N20 doesn't do it's double damage (although the .45 still won't pierce: it'll just scratch the outside).

True.
But that's a different flaw, and Mega-Damage addresses it to a point.
A nat 20 SDC attack still won't damage a MDC structure.

Again, that's more than you can say for shooting an IAR 2 Abolisher with a Wilks pistol.

True. But then again, a Wilk's pistol SHOULD be able to damage an Abolisher. It's a mega-damage weapon.

My point is, it's paistol: the abolisher is a "tank".
SDC to SDC, a pistol won't damage a tank.
MDC to MDC, a pistol will damage a tank.
How is that sensible?

[Killer Cyborg]

Like the example says, you can shoot a tank all day with a .45 and not damage it. Some materials are just too strong for most weapons.

The pistol simply does not have the PV to damage the tank.

Sure, if you house-rule and extrapolate a lot.
Like I said, PV could fix things... it just doesn't.

That's not a House Rule: the .45 has a PV of 4 or 5. The Tank has a Resistance of between 9 and 11. In order to damage the tank, the PV needs to at least be more than 9, and a .50 calibre rifle has an 8. So, you can forget small arms right away.
By contrast in Rifts, I can get through a Glitter Boy with a 2D6 Ion pistol, and all I need to do is roll 5 or better.

Give me a page number on the PV info.

HU GMG. I don't have the page number (or the rest of the book) with me.

P. 204+
"This is another optional rule system..."
"Ultimately, the decision on whether or not certain bullets can punch through certain objects is up to the GM."

If it says what PV a .45 automatic has, I can't find it.
And it only lists PV of 1-9, with 9 being through "anything less than thick military armor"... but gives no indication of whether that means tank armor or battleship armor.

I like the idea of PV, but it's just an optional rule that isn't nearly fleshed out on its own to cover things adequately.

My point is, it's pistol: the abolisher is a "tank".
SDC to SDC, a pistol won't damage a tank.
MDC to MDC, a pistol will damage a tank.
How is that sensible?

Because even a Mega-damage pistol is still megadamage.
There simply is not any substance durable enough to resist that kind of force. Even a mega-damage pistol is still an anti-tank weapon.

[Sentinel]

Like the example says, you can shoot a tank all day with a .45 and not damage it. Some materials are just too strong for most weapons.

The pistol simply does not have the PV to damage the tank.

Sure, if you house-rule and extrapolate a lot.
Like I said, PV could fix things... it just doesn't.

That's not a House Rule: the .45 has a PV of 4 or 5. The Tank has a Resistance of between 9 and 11. In order to damage the tank, the PV needs to at least be more than 9, and a .50 calibre rifle has an 8. So, you can forget small arms right away.
By contrast in Rifts, I can get through a Glitter Boy with a 2D6 Ion pistol, and all I need to do is roll 5 or better.

Give me a page number on the PV info.

HU GMG. I don't have the page number (or the rest of the book) with me.

P. 204+
"This is another optional rule system..."
"Ultimately, the decision on whether or not certain bullets can punch through certain objects is up to the GM."

If it says what PV a .45 automatic has, I can't find it.
It should be either in GMG under Ammunition types, or HUII, in the back section with weapons.
And it only lists PV of 1-9, with 9 being through "anything less than thick military armor"... but gives no indication of whether that means tank armor or battleship armor.

Um, either. You aren't going to pierce either with a pistol.

I like the idea of PV, but it's just an optional rule that isn't nearly fleshed out on its own to cover things adequately.

My point is, it's pistol: the abolisher is a "tank".
SDC to SDC, a pistol won't damage a tank.
MDC to MDC, a pistol will damage a tank.
How is that sensible?

Because even a Mega-damage pistol is still megadamage.
There simply is not any substance durable enough to resist that kind of force. Even a mega-damage pistol is still an anti-tank weapon.

Think about that: a pistol is now an anti-tank weapon.
I simply refuse to swallow that.
An anti-tank weapon is an anti-tank weapon. Like a Fire-Breather, or a heavy rail gun. A pistol is a sidearm. A back-up.
If a pistol is now an anti-tank weapon, then MDC is more broke than Automatic Dodge in N&SS.

[Scooter the Outlaw]

An anti-tank weapon is an anti-tank weapon. Like a Fire-Breather, or a heavy rail gun. A pistol is a sidearm. A back-up.
If a pistol is now an anti-tank weapon, then MDC is more broke than Automatic Dodge in N&SS.

I find it a lot harder to believe that someday a man will be able to punch through a tank, like Superman, than the possibility that someday, a pistol will be able to destroy a tank.

Anyway, on topic, I like MDC as long as it sees the limited application it should. A mix of SDC and MDC is fun, which is a large part of the reason I liked Australia. I enjoy SDC games as well, but playing with MDC can also be a great deal of fun. The situation I imagine is kind of like Terminator (the first one), where human conventional weapons--at least of the modern day--are basically useless on advenced machines. I can't see a problem with this.

[Killer Cyborg]

That's not a House Rule: the .45 has a PV of 4 or 5.

No PV is listed in HUII or the HUGMG.
Finally, in CoCW, I found the PV for a .45 pistol.
PV of 5 or 6, depending on which page and type of gun.
With AP rounds, it gets a +2 to PV, which would be a PV of up to 8, which the rules do not cover.
PV of 7 goes through "thin metal", so what would PV of 8 do?
Go through "thick metal"...?
No way of knowing for sure.

The Tank has a Resistance of between 9 and 11.

Not that the books ever say.

In order to damage the tank, the PV needs to at least be more than 9, and a .50 calibre rifle has an 8. So, you can forget small arms right away.

There is no PV of nine. The highest PV is 7.
Unless you are making a house rule to provide for one.

By contrast in Rifts, I can get through a Glitter Boy with a 2D6 Ion pistol, and all I need to do is roll 5 or better.

Not in a single shot.

It should be either in GMG under Ammunition types, or HUII, in the back section with weapons.[/color]
And it only lists PV of 1-9, with 9 being through "anything less than thick military armor"... but gives no indication of whether that means tank armor or battleship armor.

Um, either. You aren't going to pierce either with a pistol.

You can't tell that from the rules.
Yet you say these rules are not broken...?

Think about that: a pistol is now an anti-tank weapon.
I simply refuse to swallow that.
An anti-tank weapon is an anti-tank weapon. Like a Fire-Breather, or a heavy rail gun. A pistol is a sidearm. A back-up.
If a pistol is now an anti-tank weapon, then MDC is more broke than Automatic Dodge in N&SS.

No, a pistol is "A firearm designed to be held and fired with one hand."
Firepower is simply not an issue.

[Killer Cyborg]

Anyway, on topic, I like MDC as long as it sees the limited application it should. A mix of SDC and MDC is fun, which is a large part of the reason I liked Australia. I enjoy SDC games as well, but playing with MDC can also be a great deal of fun. The situation I imagine is kind of like Terminator (the first one), where human conventional weapons--at least of the modern day--are basically useless on advenced machines. I can't see a problem with this.

I have used the same mental comparison many times.

[Kelorin]

- The PS is flawed. the 150 tons Triax Devastator with its
PS 60 can lift 2700 kgs. (6000 lbs). Looks like that even
the giant rifle is heavier.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a ruling that anything can lift its own weight to get up off the ground, and that the strength rating is just for carrying things that aren't a part of the object?

Excuse me, I expect the Triax eggheads to give at least
a 10% "overpower" for a robot vehicle - and it is 15 tons
in the case of the Devastator - it is like lifting about 20 pounds
with one arm for an adult male Homo Sapiens. "No roll needed"
task.

After all, the fluff tex goes " With a sweep of its mighty arm, the
bot would knock away four or five attackers" (ie. gurgoyles).
Now, four or five gurgoyles CAN pin down a Devastator just by
brute force (and according to statistics).

Adios
KLM

Interestingly enough, I brought the Robotech RPG main book into work with me to check rules semantics for the missiles thread, but it may be useful here as well.

Before everything was rated based on the Robotic P.S. there were mechs like the RDF Gladiator. The Gladiator is a fully bipedal robot unit with articulated hands weighing in at 27.4 tons.

Care to guess what it's lifting capacity is?

Answer Rollover Here: 15 tons

Even the Zentraedi were able lift and carry several tons. But nothing in Rifts can.

[Killer Cyborg]

In rifts, MDC is definitely the new SDC. It has to be, given the nature of what mand kind has to deal with these days. One brodkil could smoke an entire division of human soldiers if they were armed to today's standards. By introducing it in the first book, it's basically become a standard by whiched everything must conform or else disinitigrate. No one wants to play a character who is easily dispatched by a vagabond who found an MDC pistol on a dead man and beat you on the initiative roll... so you either pretty much have to be MDC or wear MDC armor or have another means of protection.

This is more the fault of the GM's and the later writers than it is of the original game.
Just because there are MDC threats doesn't mean that there are only MDC threats.

I bought the robotech book ages ago when I was just getting into rifts. In my adolescent munchkinism, I discarded the book on the grounds that a glitter boy can kick the living **** out of a MAC II, even though that destroid looks like it should be able to lay a hurting on an entire tank company. MDC in the game is vastly scaled down and most of the weapons are sdc based. Few people have MDC weapons, partly because the few that are given kind of suck... heavy, low payload, etc... Looking back, it would have been a pretty cool game to play. A pity I didn't really give it a fair chance, but the balance certainly exists in a far better way than it does in rifts.

Yup.

[Killer Cyborg]

Think about that: a pistol is now an anti-tank weapon.
I simply refuse to swallow that.
An anti-tank weapon is an anti-tank weapon. Like a Fire-Breather, or a heavy rail gun. A pistol is a sidearm. A back-up.
If a pistol is now an anti-tank weapon, then MDC is more broke than Automatic Dodge in N&SS.

Agreed, it's retardedly lame. Either your armor is intact or you're "red misted" (which by the way has become overused to the point where I can't even say it without choking on my own bile). A Wilks laser pistol does more damage than a modern day rocket launcher.

I don't see the problem so far.

A karate chop from an "unimpressive", commonly found & generic supernatural race will blow a car up or vaporize a human.

Now THAT is something that I've always had a bit of a problem with.
Well, not so much at first... but once Supernatural PS started inflicting Mega-damage.

I think that they need a lot more "inflicts SDC to SDC targets and MD to MDC targets" type attacks/creatures.

Convert supernatural creatures as per the Conversion Book (or use their original Fantasy/BTS stats), give PA a straight 1-for-1 conversion in armor capacity, and large robots a 10x-100x conversion and you're well on your way to making RIFTS suck a lot less.

Completely disagree.

[Jason Richards]

Wow, never intended to spark this whole debate.

Just a fun note, if you want to look back at an M.D.C.-esque system from the early days, check out Heroes Unlimited for the tanks/armor that is in there. The were in Revised... off-hand I don't recall them being in HU2, but they might be.

Anyway, doesn't it state that the armor doesn't take damage from less than heavy machinegun fire or some-such thing (I think it gives a caliber)?

[Jason Richards]

Oh, and not to dredge up an old subject, but even with time you couldn't drip water on a tank and cut it in half. The depleted Uranium would break down and decay long before that ever happened. Shoot the water in a controlled flow at hundrends of feet per second, then you could eventually do it (maybe).

Perhaps a better example: you will never, ever, ever, evereverever be able to scratch a diamond (or per the example... a piece of depleted Uranium armor) with kitchen knife. Some materials can never do physical damage to other materials.

[Shiva7]

Interestingly enough, I brought the Robotech RPG main book into work with me to check rules semantics for the missiles thread, but it may be useful here as well.

Before everything was rated based on the Robotic P.S. there were mechs like the RDF Gladiator. The Gladiator is a fully bipedal robot unit with articulated hands weighing in at 27.4 tons.

Care to guess what it's lifting capacity is?

Answer Rollover Here: 15 tons

Even the Zentraedi were able lift and carry several tons. But nothing in Rifts can.

I have never seen that, could you please tell me where it says the lifting/carrying capacities for Destroids?

[Borast]

I vaguely recall reading somewhere that a destroid (using slings, hands and "backpacks") could carry a significant portion of it's own mass or more.

[Sentinel]

Wow, never intended to spark this whole debate.

Just a fun note, if you want to look back at an M.D.C.-esque system from the early days, check out Heroes Unlimited for the tanks/armor that is in there. The were in Revised... off-hand I don't recall them being in HU2, but they might be.

HU II GMG.

Anyway, doesn't it state that the armor doesn't take damage from less than heavy machinegun fire or some-such thing (I think it gives a caliber)?

Yes it does.

There is no PV of nine. The highest PV is 7.
Unless you are making a house rule to provide for one.

Page 205, HU II GMG. .50 calibre has an 8, heavier machine guns have 9.

[Killer Cyborg]

Wow, never intended to spark this whole debate.

Just a fun note, if you want to look back at an M.D.C.-esque system from the early days, check out Heroes Unlimited for the tanks/armor that is in there. The were in Revised... off-hand I don't recall them being in HU2, but they might be.

HU II GMG.

Anyway, doesn't it state that the armor doesn't take damage from less than heavy machinegun fire or some-such thing (I think it gives a caliber)?

Yes it does.

There is no PV of nine. The highest PV is 7.
Unless you are making a house rule to provide for one.

Page 205, HU II GMG. .50 calibre has an 8, heavier machine guns have 9.

Okay, I was (at that time) looking in CoCW.
The HU GMG does help out a lot with PV, but I still don't consider it a complete rule system.

[Kelorin]

Interestingly enough, I brought the Robotech RPG main book into work with me to check rules semantics for the missiles thread, but it may be useful here as well.

Before everything was rated based on the Robotic P.S. there were mechs like the RDF Gladiator. The Gladiator is a fully bipedal robot unit with articulated hands weighing in at 27.4 tons.

Care to guess what it's lifting capacity is?

Answer Rollover Here: 15 tons

Even the Zentraedi were able lift and carry several tons. But nothing in Rifts can.

I have never seen that, could you please tell me where it says the lifting/carrying capacities for Destroids?

I'd be glad to. Each of the Destroid descriptions mention a lifting capacity under their hand to hand combat damages.

Robotech RPG pg 58. The Excaliber can only lift objects that can be balanced between it PBC arms. Maximum weight 8 tons.

Robotech RPG pg 60. The Gladiator can lift 15 tons.

Robotech RPG pg 66. The Spartan may be able to cradle large objects between its missle pod arms. Maximum weight 6 tons.

No lifting capacity listed for Raidar-X, M.A.C. II, or Veritech for that matter.

You may also find it interesting to note, that despite the extreme lifting capacity of Robotech mecha (as compared to Rifts), their hand to hand damages are pitiful for their size and weight. As a couple of examples, the maximum hand to hand damage the 18.5 ton, 42.6 ft tall Veritech can dish out is a 1D6 MD punch or stomp. Even the 186.3 ton empty weight M.A.C. II can only punch for 2D6 or stomp for 3D4.

You know, I'm starting to think that some percentage of a robot or mech's tonnage should in some way factor in as a hand to hand damage bonus.

eg. Veritech fighter weighs 18.5 tons. Use 1/3 its weight as an damage bonus of +6 to all hand to hand attacks. On the other hand, the 186 ton M.A.C II gets a damage bonus of +60 to a stomp or punch.

In comparison, the Triax Devastator weighing in at 150 tons, could add +50 to it hand to hand combat damage. Assuming a similar lift capacity as the RDF Gladiator (having fully articulated arms and hands), it would be able to lift 75 tons. Although it does seem awfully heavy for its frame considering it only weights about 36 tons less than an empty M.A.C. II...

[Sentinel]

Part of the problem here is that the Square Cube Law is not taken into account. There is a point beyond which an object (or creature) is simply too heavy to move without a serious increase in strength.
The Triax Devastator is underpowered for its' size.
The Robotech lift/carry ratios also did not take into account the current Bionic/Robotic/Supernatural PS system.

[KLM]

Part of the problem here is that the Square Cube Law is not taken into account. There is a point beyond which an object (or creature) is simply too heavy to move without a serious increase in strength.
The Triax Devastator is underpowered for its' size.
The Robotech lift/carry ratios also did not take into account the current Bionic/Robotic/Supernatural PS system.

If you are saying, that Palladium did not considered this, you are right.

Still, a mecha which cannot lift at least half of its weight is just
a lumbering hill of metal - and not a viable alternative to tanks.
A mecha must be able to mow down a great number of opponents
(like walkers in SW) or at least able to do tremendous damage
in close combat (for example being able to make a body flip
on similar opponents).

Rifts mecha over PA's do not have those capabilities, or at
least the statistical background for it.

Adios
KLM

[Sentinel]

If you are saying, that Palladium did not considered this, you are right.

It's pretty obvious Palladium didn't ever really consider heights and weights.
The power of Growth is the "biggest" offender (pardon the pun) of the S-C-Law.
Many heights and weights for everything from creatures to mechanical bodies are off.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Where does everybody else stand on this sort of thing?

1. Does the increasing proliferation of Mega-Damage bother you?
If so, then why and to what extent?
If not, then why not?

2. Can you think of ways to challeng player characters other than pitting them against high-powered MDC enemies?

3. Would you be interested in seeing more low-powered (SDC, high SDC, and low MDC) opponents, races, and gear in future Rifts books?

4. How do you picture the average human inhabitant of Rifts Earth? What sort of life do they live, and what sort of gear do they have?

5. How much MDC do you see the average character as having (Armor, for SDC beings)?
How much MD do you see the average character as being able to dish out in a single attack?

1. Yes it does bother me, mainly because we continue to get higher MD this or that and weapons damage doesn't get a equal jump (though that has increased as well).

2. Yes.

3. Yes.

4. Basically the same as the early pioneers of the 18th-19th century with some odds and ends of higher tech and the few communities spiking up the level.

5. The most common EBA in my game is the Bushman with 60 MDC, but that's generally reserved for the elite type troops/higher level NPC's etc...

Non-eba is something like the Huntsman, though Merc Ops has a number of low MD armor that will likely take over.

As far as MD weapon damage, going by canon stats I'd guess maybe 10-15 points.
(I'll note that I've increased the performance of MD weapons, and made them harder to come by in my games)

[Shiva7]

Oh, and not to dredge up an old subject, but even with time you couldn't drip water on a tank and cut it in half. The depleted Uranium would break down and decay long before that ever happened. Shoot the water in a controlled flow at hundrends of feet per second, then you could eventually do it (maybe).

Nobody ever said what kind of tank. I could cut a Sherman in half with water droplets in less than a hundred years. Using a high-pressure industrial cutter I could definitely cut through anything. Those things cut through diamonds, steel, carbon like they weren't even there.

Not really something for the battlefiel though

[Jason Richards]

Oh, and not to dredge up an old subject, but even with time you couldn't drip water on a tank and cut it in half. The depleted Uranium would break down and decay long before that ever happened. Shoot the water in a controlled flow at hundrends of feet per second, then you could eventually do it (maybe).

Nobody ever said what kind of tank. I could cut a Sherman in half with water droplets in less than a hundred years. Using a high-pressure industrial cutter I could definitely cut through anything. Those things cut through diamonds, steel, carbon like they weren't even there.

You could rust away a Sherman.

And you clearly weren't talking about high-pressure cutting equipment... you were suggesting that even the smallest amount of damage over time could destroy the sturdiest materials, and that isn't always true.

[Borast]

The proverbial 6 year old girl moving the QE2 physics argument...

[Library Ogre]

The MDC system has its flaws. I'm somewhat limited on time, so I'll try to be brief, but hopefully I'll cover everything.

MDC makes perfect sense for Robotech, since the basis for Robotech was the cartoon. If you watch one of the early Macross episodes, you see Rick's VT flying (crashing) through several buildings without being significantly damaged. That's MDC and, in principle, it should apply well on a similar scale to Rifts.
However, when everyone is lauding Robotech's treatment of MDC, they tend to forget Sentinels and Invid Invasion, where body armor had 50 MDC (and was laser resistant), and even motorcycle based mecha had 150 MDC. These were tough mecha, about on par with their Rifts counterparts.

I've spent some time with Palladium's combat system, and it is difficult to reconcile. For one thing, by my reading of the difference between SDC and HP, SDC should increase every level, while HP remains relatively the same. For another, the AR system for armor makes armor, especially light armors, relatively useless as strike and parry bonuses increase past effective ARs; in the immortal words of Surf Ninjas, "The glass is either half-full, or we're dead."

I like the idea of converting the CWAC's Resistance Factors for armors over as a damage reduction system, but including a modified version of CCW's PV system to account for some of a firearm's deadliness against armor. In a damage reduction system, armor remains useful even as levels go up and strikes and damages increase; it's another point you didn't take. Include options to allow for the bypassing of armor, and the system works well, even when you have to face relatively powerful creatures.

For Mecha, this would also apply. The armor would reduce damage done to structure and systems. To hurt the pilot of a robot, you have to get through the armor and damage the crew compartment... but long before that, you can have done sufficient damage to have knocked out its systems, meaning its nothing but a hunk of scrap. Power Armor becomes just that... strong armor with built-in systems.

This can be done whether you keep MD or not, but it makes the game somewhat more logical, without sacrificing playability; once the learning curve is done (and since it's all addition and subtraction, the learning curve is very short), the game plays just as smoothly as before, but without Natural AR being like unto a God, and wearing armor being like unto GI Joe.

[Shiva7]

Oh, and not to dredge up an old subject, but even with time you couldn't drip water on a tank and cut it in half. The depleted Uranium would break down and decay long before that ever happened. Shoot the water in a controlled flow at hundrends of feet per second, then you could eventually do it (maybe).

Nobody ever said what kind of tank. I could cut a Sherman in half with water droplets in less than a hundred years. Using a high-pressure industrial cutter I could definitely cut through anything. Those things cut through diamonds, steel, carbon like they weren't even there.

You could rust away a Sherman.

And you clearly weren't talking about high-pressure cutting equipment... you were suggesting that even the smallest amount of damage over time could destroy the sturdiest materials, and that isn't always true.

Yes it is. Given enough time, and provided the thing I am trying to cut is bigger than the water droplets, it will sooner or later cut through it.

Are you talking chemically via rusting or mechanically via the impact of the water droplet?

And in what way is this relevant to the issue at hand?

Will a diamond be cut in half after 1000 years of water dripping on it, or how about 10000 years?

[Sentinel]

SDC works quite well in providing credible menace and threat.
Vampires, werewolves, etc are still impervious to normal weapons (even in an MDC enviornment, Vampires are invulnerable to "normal" weapons).
With a high enough AR, many creatures are resistant to all but the best rolls, and with a high enough resistance, the PV of many weapons falls short of harming them.

There are other ways to express the brokeness of the world and capture the apacalyptic feel without pistols shooting through tanks.

[Jeffrey W.]

Palladium's game mechanics have a great many problems, but still the game is still workable.

Regardless of M.D.C. or not, it's the roleplaying and the interpretation of the imagined events of each game that outweigh the dice, addition, or subtraction of imaginary number values to arrive at a conclusion.

Mr. Nexx, Jason Richards, and others have already mentioned that thinking through the events and their potential consequences is far more important than arguing Penetration Values, S.D.C. multipliers/modifiers, etc.

Those fine earlier books that are so nostalgically remembered did not only have lower M.D.C. and more S.D.C. characters, they were written during a time period when Roleplaying was the emphasis.

Then ... enter the munchkins. Word of these new games with pistols that could annihilate an entire automobile (M.D.) got out, and munchkins flocked to these games. With the arrival of the muchkins came changes such as each book trying to trump the last books M.D.C. totals.

Giga-damage (Rifter nine and a half) was supposed to be a joke, but perhaps it is a look at things to come for Palladium Books if good gamemasters can't get the munchkins under control.

Let us return our concentration back to good roleplaying.

Jeffrey W.
(genuine roleplayer)

[Sentinel]

Regardless of M.D.C. or not, it's the roleplaying and the interpretation of the imagined events of each game that outweigh the dice, addition, or subtraction of imaginary number values to arrive at a conclusion.

No argument about the role-playing:But the other mechanics of the game are important as well. If they weren't, we'd just play Amber and do without random rolling, and such.
It's role-playing yes, but it's a role-playing game, which means there are rules, and rule and game mechanics, and these are as important as anything else.

People often say: "you're only limit is your imagination".
Well, that may be the case, but if the game doesn't support something you imagined, then you are forced to subjectively extrapolate to include it (for example, imagine trying to use Super Powers or Magic in Star Frontiers: the game doesn't have these things). One player may imagine one thing, while the GM imagines something quite different. Without a rule mechanic on the issue, there is no objective resolution, only a subjective one.

[Killer Cyborg]

SDC works quite well in providing credible menace and threat.
Vampires, werewolves, etc are still impervious to normal weapons (even in an MDC enviornment, Vampires are invulnerable to "normal" weapons).
With a high enough AR, many creatures are resistant to all but the best rolls, and with a high enough resistance, the PV of many weapons falls short of harming them.

I mostly agree, but I've never seen any monsters with a PV described.
And I've never seen a Natural AR high enough to stop most attacks. Maybe at low levels, but certainly not at high levels.

There are other ways to express the brokeness of the world and capture the apacalyptic feel without pistols shooting through tanks.

Sure there are, which is why I think that SDC should be utilized more in Rifts.
There are also plenty of ways to express the feel of the world using MDC, which is why I think that it should also be utilized in Rifts.

[Sentinel]

SDC works quite well in providing credible menace and threat.
Vampires, werewolves, etc are still impervious to normal weapons (even in an MDC enviornment, Vampires are invulnerable to "normal" weapons).
With a high enough AR, many creatures are resistant to all but the best rolls, and with a high enough resistance, the PV of many weapons falls short of harming them.

I mostly agree, but I've never seen any monsters with a PV described.
And I've never seen a Natural AR high enough to stop most attacks. Maybe at low levels, but certainly not at high levels.

Most of the games like HU (which uses PV more than any other) don't have monsters. In some cases, AR and other resistance would need to be determined. On the whole, AR for many PFRPG and BtS monsters is too low for my tastes.

I have run combats though, where more than half the shots from the players don't beat the AR of their opponents. Or, their bullets melt before they hit the flaming demon or pyrokinetic psychic bad guy. Or something. I did think MDC made some sense in the first Robotech book, but that was before most of the pistols and personal armours had MDC. The giant mecha and the Zentradi, and especially the starship weapons and armour, that I felt justified MDC.

[Borast]

I've said it in the past...PB should adapt an Armour Classification style system. That way you can't sink a battleship with an automatic rifle anymore.

[Killer Cyborg]

SDC works quite well in providing credible menace and threat.
Vampires, werewolves, etc are still impervious to normal weapons (even in an MDC enviornment, Vampires are invulnerable to "normal" weapons).
With a high enough AR, many creatures are resistant to all but the best rolls, and with a high enough resistance, the PV of many weapons falls short of harming them.

I mostly agree, but I've never seen any monsters with a PV described.
And I've never seen a Natural AR high enough to stop most attacks. Maybe at low levels, but certainly not at high levels.

Most of the games like HU (which uses PV more than any other) don't have monsters. In some cases, AR and other resistance would need to be determined. On the whole, AR for many PFRPG and BtS monsters is too low for my tastes.

HU still uses natural armor ratings for some powers and races though.

[Sentinel]

SDC works quite well in providing credible menace and threat.
Vampires, werewolves, etc are still impervious to normal weapons (even in an MDC enviornment, Vampires are invulnerable to "normal" weapons).
With a high enough AR, many creatures are resistant to all but the best rolls, and with a high enough resistance, the PV of many weapons falls short of harming them.

I mostly agree, but I've never seen any monsters with a PV described.
And I've never seen a Natural AR high enough to stop most attacks. Maybe at low levels, but certainly not at high levels.

Most of the games like HU (which uses PV more than any other) don't have monsters. In some cases, AR and other resistance would need to be determined. On the whole, AR for many PFRPG and BtS monsters is too low for my tastes.

HU still uses natural armor ratings for some powers and races though.

True enough. Not all of those races however correspond to some of the supernatural creatures and creatues of magic introduced in Rifts.
With a quick & simple equation like PV= 1/2 of AR would mean an AR of 15 would require a weapon to have a PV of 8 or more to get through (.50 cal, or bigger). The HU GMG gives PV of most Energy Expulsion powers, and it wouldn't be hard to extrapolate that into weapons of similar outputs.
On the whole, AR could be better for many things, but for others, it's fine. The resistance value introduced in Weapons, Armour & Castles could also be brought into play.

In the end I find it an unnecessary mechanic to have something like MDC, which necessitates (for one example) a hurricane, which used to do SDC damage, now doing MDC just to be a credible menace; it's still a 120 M.P.H. wind. What makes natural SDC disasters MDC now? In order to keep MD armour from making a person indestructible, cold needs to do MD, heat needs to do MD, and we have endless arguments about whether MD parts need maintenance and upkeep as they grind against each other. Boulders which weigh as much as they do/did in HU now do MDC just to be threatening.
MDC has become ludicrous, and was never necessary.

[Killer Cyborg]

In the end I find it an unnecessary mechanic to have something like MDC, which necessitates (for one example) a hurricane, which used to do SDC damage, now doing MDC just to be a credible menace; it's still a 120 M.P.H. wind. What makes natural SDC disasters MDC now?

The mechanic of MDC does not, in any way, shape, or form, necessitate having natural disasters inflict mega-damage.

In order to keep MD armour from making a person indestructible, cold needs to do MD, heat needs to do MD, and we have endless arguments about whether MD parts need maintenance and upkeep as they grind against each other. Boulders which weigh as much as they do/did in HU now do MDC just to be threatening.
MDC has become ludicrous, and was never necessary.

I agree that a lot of the use of MDC is indeed ludicrous, but that's not a problem with the system, it's a problem with the writers.

MDC is not "necessary", but then again no mechanic is.
Hit Points aren't necessary, SDC isn't necessary, AR isn't necessary.
You can get by without any of these things.
The question is whether MDC is an adequate mechanic for describing certain concepts, and it is.

[Sentinel]

In the end I find it an unnecessary mechanic to have something like MDC, which necessitates (for one example) a hurricane, which used to do SDC damage, now doing MDC just to be a credible menace; it's still a 120 M.P.H. wind. What makes natural SDC disasters MDC now?

The mechanic of MDC does not, in any way, shape, or form, necessitate having natural disasters inflict mega-damage.

Without doing so, MDC armours would make one impervious to avalanches, volcanoes, hurricanes, landslides, and other SDC natural disasters. IIRC, some of these natural phenomena are covered in Underseas and Canada.

In order to keep MD armour from making a person indestructible, cold needs to do MD, heat needs to do MD, and we have endless arguments about whether MD parts need maintenance and upkeep as they grind against each other. Boulders which weigh as much as they do/did in HU now do MDC just to be threatening.
MDC has become ludicrous, and was never necessary.

I agree that a lot of the use of MDC is indeed ludicrous, but that's not a problem with the system, it's a problem with the writers.

MDC is not "necessary", but then again no mechanic is.
Hit Points aren't necessary, SDC isn't necessary, AR isn't necessary.
You can get by without any of these things.
You would need a means to express a characters ability withstand damage.
I just feel that SDC does so adequetly.
The question is whether MDC is an adequate mechanic for describing certain concepts, and it is.

But for other concepts it's ridiculous. Many things are scaled improperly, everything and it's brother has MDC, it's just silly. Look at Wormwood. Even the humans are MDC creatures (aside from that I love Wormwood: and since I turn SDC into MDC, everything scales back evenly here).
Conceptually, magic is supposed to stronger in Rifts than in (for example) HU. Yet in HU Armour of Ithan provides a greater level of protection proportionately than it does in this "magic rich enviornment". There are other examples of the off-set scale and ridiculous sense of destruction in MDC weapons and whatnot, but I've made many of those points earlier.
For someone who doesn't like the "insta-kill", KevSim sure introduced a whopper of one.

[dark brandon]

For someone who doesn't like the "insta-kill", KevSim sure introduced a whopper of one.

While MDC may instant kill someone in one hit, they are not completely helpless against it, which is what I think he's against. Kinda like D&D powerword "kill" (No save, you die if you have under 100 hp. That's it).

You still have a chance to dodge a blast, and usually if you're going up against MDC weapondry, any GM will usually give you some form of protection, even if it's to RP your way out of a situation.

Also, this instant kill only really works against SDC beings if hit.

Finally, Kevin is much more about allowing players and GM's the ability to stretch their imagination than he is on rules. Meaning he probably doesn't play MDC as instant kill, but rather, you end up losing a limb or falling unconcious rather than just dieing (which explains why some NPC's have bionics gotten during a "war").

[Sentinel]

Also, this instant kill only really works against SDC beings if hit.

Hence the need for MDC animals, dinosaurs, D-Bee humanoids, etc.
I accept the argument about tanks and military vehicles and small arms. But, MDC has gone so far outside and beyond that, down to the small arms, and personal armours, all sorts of creatures and animals.
It would be like giving Invulnerability to every character in HUII that could select powers. Imagine the arms race that would start.

[Killer Cyborg]

The mechanic of MDC does not, in any way, shape, or form, necessitate having natural disasters inflict mega-damage.

Without doing so, MDC armours would make one impervious to avalanches, volcanoes, hurricanes, landslides, and other SDC natural disasters. IIRC, some of these natural phenomena are covered in Underseas and Canada.

Yes.
So what?
Why shouldn't they be impervious to natural disasters?

(Although volcanoes would likely be natural mega-damage forces anyway)

Hit Points aren't necessary, SDC isn't necessary, AR isn't necessary.
You can get by without any of these things.

You would need a means to express a characters ability withstand damage.

Not really. I've seen systems without that.

I just feel that SDC does so adequetly.

It does okay, but it doesn't really cover things the same way that mega-damage does. An SDC tank can officially be hurt by any SDC weapon if you roll over the AR. PV can matter, but only if you use the optional rules for it, and only if you expand on those rules considerably.

But for other concepts it's ridiculous. Many things are scaled improperly, everything and it's brother has MDC, it's just silly. Look at Wormwood. Even the humans are MDC creatures (aside from that I love Wormwood: and since I turn SDC into MDC, everything scales back evenly here).

Yes, that is messed up.
It is NOT a problem with the concept/mechanic of mega-damage, it's a problem with the writers misapplying it.

Conceptually, magic is supposed to stronger in Rifts than in (for example) HU. Yet in HU Armour of Ithan provides a greater level of protection proportionately than it does in this "magic rich enviornment".

No, it doesn't.
In HU, Armor of Ithan can be destroyed/penetrated with machineguns.
In Rifts, it could shrug off rounds from a .50 cal machinegun all day (or rather, until the duration elapsed).

There are other examples of the off-set scale and ridiculous sense of destruction in MDC weapons and whatnot, but I've made many of those points earlier.
For someone who doesn't like the "insta-kill", KevSim sure introduced a whopper of one.

It's only an "insta-kill" if you're caught outside of your armor and are hit.

[Sentinel]

The mechanic of MDC does not, in any way, shape, or form, necessitate having natural disasters inflict mega-damage.

Without doing so, MDC armours would make one impervious to avalanches, volcanoes, hurricanes, landslides, and other SDC natural disasters. IIRC, some of these natural phenomena are covered in Underseas and Canada.

Yes.
So what?
Why shouldn't they be impervious to natural disasters?

(Although volcanoes would likely be natural mega-damage forces anyway)

That's part of my point: 3000 degrees of boiling lava is still 3000 degrees, yet 3000 degrees is SDC in HU while it's MDC in Rifts.

Hit Points aren't necessary, SDC isn't necessary, AR isn't necessary.
You can get by without any of these things.

You would need a means to express a characters ability withstand damage.

Not really. I've seen systems without that.

How do you then resolve combat damage?

I just feel that SDC does so adequetly.

It does okay, but it doesn't really cover things the same way that mega-damage does. An SDC tank can officially be hurt by any SDC weapon if you roll over the AR. PV can matter, but only if you use the optional rules for it, and only if you expand on those rules considerably.

But for other concepts it's ridiculous. Many things are scaled improperly, everything and it's brother has MDC, it's just silly. Look at Wormwood. Even the humans are MDC creatures (aside from that I love Wormwood: and since I turn SDC into MDC, everything scales back evenly here).

Yes, that is messed up.
It is NOT a problem with the concept/mechanic of mega-damage, it's a problem with the writers misapplying it.

Conceptually, magic is supposed to stronger in Rifts than in (for example) HU. Yet in HU Armour of Ithan provides a greater level of protection proportionately than it does in this "magic rich enviornment".

No, it doesn't.
In HU, Armor of Ithan can be destroyed/penetrated with machineguns.
In Rifts, it could shrug off rounds from a .50 cal machinegun all day (or rather, until the duration elapsed).

I did say Proportionately: AoI in HU to HU weapons, vs AoI in Rifts vs. Rifts Weapons. A pistol in HU will do it's damage to 100 points +10 per level, while in Rifts, AoI only provides 10 MD per level. The scale again is off.

There are other examples of the off-set scale and ridiculous sense of destruction in MDC weapons and whatnot, but I've made many of those points earlier.
For someone who doesn't like the "insta-kill", KevSim sure introduced a whopper of one.

It's only an "insta-kill" if you're caught outside of your armor and are hit.

And some GMs wonder why their players never want to remove their armour suits.

[dark brandon]

Hence the need for MDC animals, dinosaurs, D-Bee humanoids, etc.
I accept the argument about tanks and military vehicles and small arms. But, MDC has gone so far outside and beyond that, down to the small arms, and personal armours, all sorts of creatures and animals.
It would be like giving Invulnerability to every character in HUII that could select powers. Imagine the arms race that would start.

Many creatures are still SDC, as there are still tigers and bears walking around whom are SDC. I see a point, in that alot of creatures that are currently stated are MDC beings. But, when it starts to bother me, I think that the only reasons they are stated out is because they are the only one's who really present any kind of a threat.

For example, they could stat out a Blanna (A creature I just made up). It's a cross between a rabbit and a cat. SDC being, bite does 1D4 sdc. This would be something they would hunt and eat but not something that would really present any kind of a threat and doesn't really need to be stated out as it's only really useful as food/pet. Now, books have a limited amount of space avalible to them so they have to pick and choose what goes in them.
I like to think that for every 1 MDC alien creature that is out there, there are probably a few hundred SDC one's that are not mentioned simply because of space.

I think that if Palladium made 2 books, monsters and animals, but one full of SDC creatures and one full of MDC creatures, the one full of MDC creatures would sell better, simply because, they are a threat/can be more of a threat than SDC creatures. That is not to say SDC creatures do not exist, or they are in small numbers, just that with limited space, you'll want to put stuff that will have greater meaning to the game itself and since most games will take advantage of the high magic/high tech avalible, you'll want to put more of that in the books.

[Sentinel]

I like to think that for every 1 MDC alien creature that is out there, there are probably a few hundred SDC one's that are not mentioned simply because of space.

Or simply driven into extinction by all the MDC predators, and wild yahoos with MDC weapons.

[dark brandon]

I like to think that for every 1 MDC alien creature that is out there, there are probably a few hundred SDC one's that are not mentioned simply because of space.

Or simply driven into extinction by all the MDC predators, and wild yahoos with MDC weapons.

Possibly. Though, I like to think there is a harmony in the land, such as MDC preditors typically will hunt MDC prey.

[Sentinel]

I like to think that for every 1 MDC alien creature that is out there, there are probably a few hundred SDC one's that are not mentioned simply because of space.

Or simply driven into extinction by all the MDC predators, and wild yahoos with MDC weapons.

Possibly. Though, I like to think there is a harmony in the land, such as MDC preditors typically will hunt MDC prey.

There is a Rifter article in either # 30 or 32 which talks about MDC food and nutrition, and a little about the balance of nature.

[dark brandon]

There is a Rifter article in either # 30 or 32 which talks about MDC food and nutrition, and a little about the balance of nature.

Yeah, that makes sense actually.

[Sentinel]

There is a Rifter article in either # 30 or 32 which talks about MDC food and nutrition, and a little about the balance of nature.

Yeah, that makes sense actually.

#32. Had to check.

MDC animals: taste like chicken.

[Killer Cyborg]

The mechanic of MDC does not, in any way, shape, or form, necessitate having natural disasters inflict mega-damage.

Without doing so, MDC armours would make one impervious to avalanches, volcanoes, hurricanes, landslides, and other SDC natural disasters. IIRC, some of these natural phenomena are covered in Underseas and Canada.

Yes.
So what?
Why shouldn't they be impervious to natural disasters?

(Although volcanoes would likely be natural mega-damage forces anyway)

That's part of my point: 3000 degrees of boiling lava is still 3000 degrees, yet 3000 degrees is SDC in HU while it's MDC in Rifts.

Actually, it wouldn't be mega-damage in Rifts as much as it would be capable of damaging MDC structures (which nets out the same).
There is no significant difference between inflicting 3d6x1000 SDC and inflicting 3d6x10 MD.

How do you then resolve combat damage?

Role-playing, or simple GM decision.
Don't get me wrong, I prefer systems that include some form of hit points.
It's just not necessary.

I did say Proportionately: AoI in HU to HU weapons, vs AoI in Rifts vs. Rifts Weapons. A pistol in HU will do it's damage to 100 points +10 per level, while in Rifts, AoI only provides 10 MD per level. The scale again is off.

I get what you're saying. I just disagree that it's a problem, because a normal pistol in Rifts Earth still only inflicts SDC damage. Your perspective is just skewed on this because most PCs start off with abnormally powerful gear (Mega-Damage). SDC is still the standard for most of the world of Rifts Earth. So AoI may not be as proportionately effective against powerful (mega-damage) NPC foes, but it is much more effective against lesser (SDC) foes; they cannot even hurt you at all.

And some GMs wonder why their players never want to remove their armour suits.

Yeah, if I were on Rifts Earth, I'd NEVER leave my armor for fear that a Mega-Damage mosquito would explode me while trying to sip my blood.


Again though, this is a problem with the implementation of Mega-Damage, not the concept. The fact is that most of Rifts Earth is supposed to be SDC and Mega-Damage threats are supposed to be relatively scarce (at least in most areas). The fact that the writers and many GMs fail to accurately portray this is not a fault of the concept of MDC.