Roadrunner power armor

[Hawk258]

Page 162 of the blackmarket Source book.

The Roadrunner armor states it triples the wearers speed.

If no upper limit is stated will it work for an individual with superhuman sonic speed? (Running not flight)

As a GM my knee jerk reaction would be " no" however considering the durability of MDC items I have to rethink my position. I would say "yes" as it isn't beyond current technology to have mechanical items handle several 10's of thousands of RPM's with very little wear.

With that in mind a speedster capable of Mach 1+ 20 mph per level of experience could potentially hit mach 3+

What do you think?

I do agree with The Beast, there likely is a limit one that isn't being considered as its treated as common sense by the writers. That said if we just go with what's been written then yes, and this isn't the only instance a bicycle has a x2 modifier to the SPD attribute to determine its speed.

Having said that, I can't see Bandito being able to make a power armor that could run that fast when there aren't any power armors that (AFAIK) have a running speed above 100 mph.

Northern Gun Samson Power Armor (Main/RUE) top running speed of 150mph, Kittani K-Universal Power Armor (WB2) tops out at 170mph. Triax Terrain Hopper PA (SB1/WB5) tops out at 170mph using Power Jumping (which involves running), and Quebec has two suits in WB22 via this method (150 & 180mph)

Additionally one of the MiO GB suits lists a top speed of 120mph, not to mention the Kittani Equistrian (144mph) and Kittani Raptor (170mph). The Kittani suits are more like robots than power armor though. Some drone/AI bots (power armor scale) can also breach 100mph running, though a few are non-humanoid. There aren't many giant robots either that breach 100mph either.

So if one is looking for a limiter, I'd put it at 200mph

And as far as I am aware this is the ONLY example of power armor with style of speed stat modifications and Robot strength at 26.

The robotic strength stat is more lifting and attacking than source of speed.
The debate is because of the strange nature of the speed stat. The fact that the speed is based off the users indicates the user is providing the main source of speed, the suit is just modifying it. So it is not just about the strength of the armor but the user.


This means it is a question of how the armor changes the users speed and if there is a limit and not about the strength of the armor.


Is it logical/resaonable to place a top limit on the suit?

Logic was thrown out.

Because if logic worked in rifts as real life those power armor would crumple under their own weight.

In game mechanics do not take PS into consideration for speed. Nor does it consider weight or acceleration. 0-top speed 0 seconds.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

As far as i remember, Sonic Speed does not change your SPD attribute.

It merely grants you an ability to run at any speed between zero and Mach 1.

You still have to roll your traditional SPD attribute. This would reflect your non-super-powered speed.

So, sure, the Roadrunner can triple your SPD attribute. Sonic Speed is not your SPD attribute.

[Hawk258]

As far as i remember, Sonic Speed does not change your SPD attribute.

It merely grants you an ability to run at any speed between zero and Mach 1.

You still have to roll your traditional SPD attribute. This would reflect your non-super-powered speed.

So, sure, the Roadrunner can triple your SPD attribute. Sonic Speed is not your SPD attribute.

That debate is still raging.

But as you have to use the higher speed bonus and you become MDC in rifts does that mean I need an SDC stat too?

[Hawk258]

Okay I have an example of a game item that "contradicts" another game rule:

A full conversation borg can not keep any psychic abilities.
(85% mechanical(roughly))

Yet... a transferred intelligence into a robot body (100% physically mechanical) can keep theirs.

And personally, I think in comparison between a speedster in a roadrunner pa and 3x speed vs a Robot RCC Transferred Intelligence with psychic abilities is pretty fair.

[eliakon]

As far as i remember, Sonic Speed does not change your SPD attribute.

It merely grants you an ability to run at any speed between zero and Mach 1.

You still have to roll your traditional SPD attribute. This would reflect your non-super-powered speed.

So, sure, the Roadrunner can triple your SPD attribute. Sonic Speed is not your SPD attribute.

That debate is still raging.

But as you have to use the higher speed bonus and you become MDC in rifts does that mean I need an SDC stat too?

Since MDC replaces SDC that's a poor example
The simple fact is that the sonic speed super power does not replace the SPD stat. This is rather important because the Power Armor is using the SPD stat, not your super power speed.

[Hawk258]

As far as i remember, Sonic Speed does not change your SPD attribute.

It merely grants you an ability to run at any speed between zero and Mach 1.

You still have to roll your traditional SPD attribute. This would reflect your non-super-powered speed.

So, sure, the Roadrunner can triple your SPD attribute. Sonic Speed is not your SPD attribute.

That debate is still raging.

But as you have to use the higher speed bonus and you become MDC in rifts does that mean I need an SDC stat too?

Since MDC replaces SDC that's a poor example
The simple fact is that the sonic speed super power does not replace the SPD stat. This is rather important because the Power Armor is using the SPD stat, not your super power speed.

Right, yet all my combat bonus, dodge, parry ect. Are also tied to the highest speed attribute.

So again do I list 2 listings for each of those?

The point is. Speed is a raw number. Fps, mph, ect.

You treat SS as an alter physical form ability, yet no stacking bonuses. You must use the highest stat.

As if you take both Extraordinary Speed and sonic speed you only use the highest bonus, and you do not apply the speed bonus to the lower speed attribute.

Either, they split, or you only have 1.if there were supposed to be 2 spd listings.

Additionally as all combat stats relating to sonic speed are treated as "automatic" ie I don't specify if I am using spd vs Ss power, then Then the sonic speed becomes the base Spd stat

Additionally when taking skills that increase speed they are NOT added to the speed if its treated as a separate stat.

In otherwords either you have 2 listings for "normal speed and SDC/APR/P,D,RwP, ext" or you have 1 stat.
In otherwords. K.I.S.S..

[eliakon]

As far as i remember, Sonic Speed does not change your SPD attribute.

It merely grants you an ability to run at any speed between zero and Mach 1.

You still have to roll your traditional SPD attribute. This would reflect your non-super-powered speed.

So, sure, the Roadrunner can triple your SPD attribute. Sonic Speed is not your SPD attribute.

That debate is still raging.

But as you have to use the higher speed bonus and you become MDC in rifts does that mean I need an SDC stat too?

Since MDC replaces SDC that's a poor example
The simple fact is that the sonic speed super power does not replace the SPD stat. This is rather important because the Power Armor is using the SPD stat, not your super power speed.

Right, yet all my combat bonus, dodge, parry ect. Are also tied to the highest speed attribute.

So again do I list 2 listings for each of those?

The point is. Speed is a raw number. Fps, mph, ect.

You treat SS as an alter physical form ability, yet no stacking bonuses. You must use the highest stat.

As if you take both Extraordinary Speed and sonic speed you only use the highest bonus, and you do not apply the speed bonus to the lower speed attribute.

Either, they split, or you only have 1.if there were supposed to be 2 spd listings.

Additionally as all combat stats relating to sonic speed are treated as "automatic" ie I don't specify if I am using spd vs Ss power, then Then the sonic speed becomes the base Spd stat

In otherwords. K.I.S.S..

Actually no.
Nothing at all is tied to your SPD atribute Nothing is based off of SPD any more (in 1st edition TMNT you got a bonus to dodge from SPD though)
Now, if you are talking about powers? Thats a whole different kettle of fish. Powers don't stack. But thats not the same as atributes.

Yes, Sonic Speed will provide your running speed... but it doesnt provide your SPD.
Just like how something that lets you lift 500 tons doesnt replace your PS.
They are not quite the same thing. Similar yes, but not identical. That is why the powers do not grant you a specific SPD stat after all!
So put another way
Your SPD stat will be whatever you rolled.
You will *also* have noted "can run at <blah blah>"
This is rather important because your SPD will govern all movement, even things that Sonic Speed doesnt. Like say... swimming, or winged flight (like say in an air filled space ship), or how fast you can walk on your hands.
It will also be important becuse there are skills and the like that can affect your SPD stat. If we replace your SPD stat with your Super Power first and then modify it with other things you can get some pretty wonky results there... which again suggests that this is not the intention.

[Hawk258]

My combat skills and sonic speed, mdc are linked.

So if I can't stack or split those then its 1 stat.

And the player indicates when using sonic speed combat stats.
What's good for the players is good for the GM

[eliakon]

My combat skills and sonic speed, mdc are linked.

So if I can't stack or split those then its 1 stat.

And the player indicates when using sonic speed combat stats.
What's good for the players is good for the GM

No, they are not linked though.
There is no part of Sonic Speed super power that goes in the SPD stat block.
Your "Can run at the speed of sound" isnt a # that goes in there. Nor is your additional actions, or damage bonus or well... any of it.
No part of the super power is a number that goes in the line SPD

It is no more a stat than the list of abilites that you get with healing factor are part of your Physical Endurance. Or that you are immune to SDC weapons is part of your MDC stat.

The stat is just that... the stat. It is a number.
If your stat is anything more than a number... then its not a stat anymore. And "Sonic Speed" isnt a stat. Its a super power.
It has a whole host of other abilites and perks... but those abilities and perks are not tied to that number. And more to the point, it does not replace that number because it only afffects that number for the purposes of running. Sonic Speed would not affect your swimming speed which is based off of your SPD stat.

[Hawk258]

My combat skills and sonic speed, mdc are linked.

So if I can't stack or split those then its 1 stat.

And the player indicates when using sonic speed combat stats.
What's good for the players is good for the GM

No, they are not linked though.
There is no part of Sonic Speed super power that goes in the SPD stat block.
Your "Can run at the speed of sound" isnt a # that goes in there. Nor is your additional actions, or damage bonus or well... any of it.
No part of the super power is a number that goes in the line SPD

It is no more a stat than the list of abilites that you get with healing factor are part of your Physical Endurance. Or that you are immune to SDC weapons is part of your MDC stat.

The stat is just that... the stat. It is a number.
If your stat is anything more than a number... then its not a stat anymore. And "Sonic Speed" isnt a stat. Its a super power.
It has a whole host of other abilites and perks... but those abilities and perks are not tied to that number. And more to the point, it does not replace that number because it only afffects that number for the purposes of running. Sonic Speed would not affect your swimming speed which is based off of your SPD stat.

Then I have 2 sets of combat and MD/SD ect stats.

One set normal. 1 set for sonic speed.

And sonic speed becomes an activated ability

All bonuses to the normal stats apply

[Hawk258]

Because in my opinion the ruling picks the lowest of both.
And treating it as both.

Now my opinion has been this.

Sonic speed is your base stat for spd.

Any flight is sonic flight. No additional bonus applies just flight with mach 1+20 as speed.

Which negates the selection of extraordinary speed.

[Hawk258]

If you want to make it an ability to activate the bonuses from extraordinary speed stacks when activated.

[eliakon]

I am having trouble following what your saying.
Sonic Speed IS an activated ability. It is activated by Running. It is your Running speed. Not your Limboing speed, not your swimming speed, not your flying speed, not your lowcrawling speed, not your handstanding speed your Running speed.

Your SPD stat is not your Running speed. your SPD stat is independent of your method of locomotion and is used to determine your speed based on the method of locomotion as modified by your SPD.

They are not the same thing.

The bonuses and abilities you get from Sonic Speed apply when you are Running. They do not apply when you are swimming. Or Flying. or doing anything else. This is why Sonic Speed does not replace your SPD stat...
...because it only applies part time, where as your stats are a full time job.

[taalismn]

I cast Field of Rakes in front of this argument, because the faster you go, the harder you stop, and the funnier it is.

[Hawk258]

I am having trouble following what your saying.
Sonic Speed IS an activated ability. It is activated by Running. It is your Running speed. Not your Limboing speed, not your swimming speed, not your flying speed, not your lowcrawling speed, not your handstanding speed your Running speed.

Your SPD stat is not your Running speed. your SPD stat is independent of your method of locomotion and is used to determine your speed based on the method of locomotion as modified by your SPD.

They are not the same thing.

The bonuses and abilities you get from Sonic Speed apply when you are Running. They do not apply when you are swimming. Or Flying. or doing anything else. This is why Sonic Speed does not replace your SPD stat...
...because it only applies part time, where as your stats are a full time job.

Okay then you have sdc/hp then when NOT using SS.

When ss is activated you have
1d4x10+40 mdc
+1d6 PE
+ 6 initiative
+4 to parry
+6 dodge
+6 to roll with punch
ONLY when SS is activated.

And is stackable with extraordinary speed bonuses. Not speed
And is treated like alter physical form

If one aspect is "activate to use" it all must be

[eliakon]

I am having trouble following what your saying.
Sonic Speed IS an activated ability. It is activated by Running. It is your Running speed. Not your Limboing speed, not your swimming speed, not your flying speed, not your lowcrawling speed, not your handstanding speed your Running speed.

Your SPD stat is not your Running speed. your SPD stat is independent of your method of locomotion and is used to determine your speed based on the method of locomotion as modified by your SPD.

They are not the same thing.

The bonuses and abilities you get from Sonic Speed apply when you are Running. They do not apply when you are swimming. Or Flying. or doing anything else. This is why Sonic Speed does not replace your SPD stat...
...because it only applies part time, where as your stats are a full time job.

Okay then you have sdc/hp then when NOT using SS.

When ss is activated you have
1d4x10+40 mdc
+1d6 PE
+ 6 initiative
+4 to parry
+6 dodge
+6 to roll with punch
ONLY when SS is activated.

And is stackable with extraordinary speed.
And is treated like alter physical form

*sigh*
You are confusing some issues.
The first is that you are confusing how super powers *work*
The power has 12 seperate sub points. Each of those is dealt with seperately.
The fact that it has 12 sub points is the reason that it is not a stat... stats do not have 12 points.

Point #1 grants you some bonuses.
Point #2 grants another suit of bonuses
this goes on and on, through each point.
They are all a side effect of having the Super Power "Sonic Speed". And as long as the super power is active, you have them all at your finger tips. Thus, you have your PE, and your MDC, and your Nightvision and all the rest at all times yes. If your power goes away for some reason... then so do your boosts.

HOWEVER. Your SPD stat is not changed... because your SPD stat is a fixed value. It is a stat. And thus can't be a variable.
And since Sonic Speed has different speeds for how fast you run and how fast you swim... thats not a stat.
Nor is the stat "Sonic Speed" because night vision is not part of your SPD stat.

I get that the super power grants you the ability to run at the speed of sound. I really do, its what it says on the tin after all.
But that doesnt mean that your stats changed. Just that you have an ability that says "ignore the stat and do this instead"
Which is why the power doesnt say anything about SPD in it anywhere. If it changed your SPD, then it would tell us what the new SPD was... and it doesnt. The absence is a pretty telling indication that there isn't a change to the SPD since it tells us all the changes that the power makes to the character. And as another poster said in another thread... powers do not provide things that they dont provide. Thus a super power that doesnt say it changes your SPD stat doesnt change your SPD stat. To change the SPD stat it has to say that it changes the SPD stat somewhere in the list of changes.

[Hawk258]

Either it all toggles or the are all on.

[Hawk258]

I am having trouble following what your saying.
Sonic Speed IS an activated ability. It is activated by Running. It is your Running speed. Not your Limboing speed, not your swimming speed, not your flying speed, not your lowcrawling speed, not your handstanding speed your Running speed.

Your SPD stat is not your Running speed. your SPD stat is independent of your method of locomotion and is used to determine your speed based on the method of locomotion as modified by your SPD.

They are not the same thing.

The bonuses and abilities you get from Sonic Speed apply when you are Running. They do not apply when you are swimming. Or Flying. or doing anything else. This is why Sonic Speed does not replace your SPD stat...
...because it only applies part time, where as your stats are a full time job.

Okay then you have sdc/hp then when NOT using SS.

When ss is activated you have
1d4x10+40 mdc
+1d6 PE
+ 6 initiative
+4 to parry
+6 dodge
+6 to roll with punch
ONLY when SS is activated.

And is stackable with extraordinary speed.
And is treated like alter physical form

*sigh*
You are confusing some issues.
The first is that you are confusing how super powers *work*
The power has 12 seperate sub points. Each of those is dealt with seperately.
The fact that it has 12 sub points is the reason that it is not a stat... stats do not have 12 points.

Point #1 grants you some bonuses.
Point #2 grants another suit of bonuses
this goes on and on, through each point.
They are all a side effect of having the Super Power "Sonic Speed". And as long as the super power is active, you have them all at your finger tips. Thus, you have your PE, and your MDC, and your Nightvision and all the rest at all times yes. If your power goes away for some reason... then so do your boosts.

HOWEVER. Your SPD stat is not changed... because your SPD stat is a fixed value. It is a stat. And thus can't be a variable.
And since Sonic Speed has different speeds for how fast you run and how fast you swim... thats not a stat.
Nor is the stat "Sonic Speed" because night vision is not part of your SPD stat.

I get that the super power grants you the ability to run at the speed of sound. I really do, its what it says on the tin after all.
But that doesnt mean that your stats changed. Just that you have an ability that says "ignore the stat and do this instead"
Which is why the power doesnt say anything about SPD in it anywhere. If it changed your SPD, then it would tell us what the new SPD was... and it doesnt. The absence is a pretty telling indication that there isn't a change to the SPD since it tells us all the changes that the power makes to the character. And as another poster said in another thread... powers do not provide things that they dont provide. Thus a super power that doesnt say it changes your SPD stat doesnt change your SPD stat. To change the SPD stat it has to say that it changes the SPD stat somewhere in the list of changes.

My PE changed. My mdc changed and either they are selective or they are full stat changes not both

[Hawk258]

This is an example of selective gming.

Where 2 solutions are available that can end the debate. Yet because of an idea that "power creep" will happen there is zero compromise.

If I can't do both, you can't deny both.

Pick 1

Additionally in the RUE what is the definition of the speed attribute?

[Hawk258]

I will correct 1 error I made.

Flight speed is it's own stat.
And swimming speed is based on PSx3.

So... based on that there is very little in game benefit or loss of balance by stating the Speed Stat is mach 1

Meaning it IS the BASE physical stat.

[kaid]

I agree with Beast’s sentiment. I don’t believe the author intended to include Superhuman Sonic Speed.

A question would be which people can have super sonic speed AND have the skill for pilot power armor? There are not that many that have access to super powers who also have access to the rifts military vehicle piloting abilities.

[Hawk258]

I agree with Beast’s sentiment. I don’t believe the author intended to include Superhuman Sonic Speed.

A question would be which people can have super sonic speed AND have the skill for pilot power armor? There are not that many that have access to super powers who also have access to the rifts military vehicle piloting abilities.

X=>1 however as the Roadrunner is not a military vehicle it doesn't count. NO WEAPONS SYSTEMS.

and "most" occ can take piloting skills power armor and weapons systems are separate skills.

[eliakon]

I am having trouble following what your saying.
Sonic Speed IS an activated ability. It is activated by Running. It is your Running speed. Not your Limboing speed, not your swimming speed, not your flying speed, not your lowcrawling speed, not your handstanding speed your Running speed.

Your SPD stat is not your Running speed. your SPD stat is independent of your method of locomotion and is used to determine your speed based on the method of locomotion as modified by your SPD.

They are not the same thing.

The bonuses and abilities you get from Sonic Speed apply when you are Running. They do not apply when you are swimming. Or Flying. or doing anything else. This is why Sonic Speed does not replace your SPD stat...
...because it only applies part time, where as your stats are a full time job.

Okay then you have sdc/hp then when NOT using SS.

When ss is activated you have
1d4x10+40 mdc
+1d6 PE
+ 6 initiative
+4 to parry
+6 dodge
+6 to roll with punch
ONLY when SS is activated.

And is stackable with extraordinary speed.
And is treated like alter physical form

*sigh*
You are confusing some issues.
The first is that you are confusing how super powers *work*
The power has 12 seperate sub points. Each of those is dealt with seperately.
The fact that it has 12 sub points is the reason that it is not a stat... stats do not have 12 points.

Point #1 grants you some bonuses.
Point #2 grants another suit of bonuses
this goes on and on, through each point.
They are all a side effect of having the Super Power "Sonic Speed". And as long as the super power is active, you have them all at your finger tips. Thus, you have your PE, and your MDC, and your Nightvision and all the rest at all times yes. If your power goes away for some reason... then so do your boosts.

HOWEVER. Your SPD stat is not changed... because your SPD stat is a fixed value. It is a stat. And thus can't be a variable.
And since Sonic Speed has different speeds for how fast you run and how fast you swim... thats not a stat.
Nor is the stat "Sonic Speed" because night vision is not part of your SPD stat.

I get that the super power grants you the ability to run at the speed of sound. I really do, its what it says on the tin after all.
But that doesnt mean that your stats changed. Just that you have an ability that says "ignore the stat and do this instead"
Which is why the power doesnt say anything about SPD in it anywhere. If it changed your SPD, then it would tell us what the new SPD was... and it doesnt. The absence is a pretty telling indication that there isn't a change to the SPD since it tells us all the changes that the power makes to the character. And as another poster said in another thread... powers do not provide things that they dont provide. Thus a super power that doesnt say it changes your SPD stat doesnt change your SPD stat. To change the SPD stat it has to say that it changes the SPD stat somewhere in the list of changes.

My PE changed. My mdc changed and either they are selective or they are full stat changes not both

Yes, your PE changed. Your MDC changed. Your SPD did not change.
Your PE changed because the power said "your PE changes, and this is what the change is"
Your MDC changed because the power said "Your MDC changed and this is what the change is"
Your SPD does NOT change because the power does NOT say your SPD changed. Instead the power says "In situation A your move is X, in situation B your move is Y".... and since it doesn't address situations C through W for those situations your move is your SPD stat.

And just to be clear here. You probably should keep a note of your stats before and after the power is applied. So that if your power is deactivated (like say, you get hit with a power neutralizer of some sort) you will know what your stats are with out the powers changes.

[Hawk258]

Bottom line, you are chewing up game time with a dual explanation of a power. If a player said 'only a-g are active full time h is selective" (meaning 2 bonuses when it fits the player).

As this debate continues among others it is unsatisfactory to the player. (Because here we are!) And leaves the power in limbo.


So pick one, or don't allow the.power in your play.

It removes conflict at the table and keeps play going.

[guardiandashi]

Bottom line, you are chewing up game time with a dual explanation of a power. If a player said 'only a-g are active full time h is selective" (meaning 2 bonuses when it fits the player).

As this debate continues among others it is unsatisfactory to the player. (Because here we are!) And leaves the power in limbo.


So pick one, or don't allow the.power in your play.

It removes conflict at the table and keeps play going.

not exactly I will use a simpler example of what people are saying.
lets look at a common physical skill
Running. RUE pg 317 2nd column 1st entry
" A routine of running and exercise.... {snip}
game effects can run at an even pace (1/2 speed) for a half mile for every point of PE without undue fatigue if pushing to the limit and running at maximum speed, the character can run 1/3 that distance before collapsing.
Bonuses: +1 PE, +4d$ to spd and +1d6 to SDC

so let say your characters stats are:
IQ 15
ME 15
MA 13
PS 13
PP 10
PE 11
PB 15
SPD 10

before any modifiers
you take running and roll your 4d4 and get 2, 1, 2, 4 = 9 and 2 on your 1d6 sdc

your modified attributes are now:
ME 15
MA 13
PS 13
PP 10
PE 12
PB 15
SPD 19

SDC whatever +2

and you can put a note that you can run at spd 9.5 for 6 miles without undue fatigue or run at spd 19 for 2 miles and collapse
note the only things that changed were the things that the skill (or super power) explicitly say change

[eliakon]

Bottom line, you are chewing up game time with a dual explanation of a power. If a player said 'only a-g are active full time h is selective" (meaning 2 bonuses when it fits the player).

As this debate continues among others it is unsatisfactory to the player. (Because here we are!) And leaves the power in limbo.


So pick one, or don't allow the.power in your play.

It removes conflict at the table and keeps play going.

I quite literally do not understand what you are saying here.
The power is pretty clear.
It says "You get these things here"
And that is all you get. You do not get anything else.
You get to change only one stat (PE) because the power says to change that one stat. You do not get to change any other stat... because the power does not say to change any other stat.

There is no need to discuss if I would allow the power in my game or not (for the record I do). All I have to do is simply read the book and say "You get what the book says you get. no more, no less"
And no part of that says that you change your SPD stat... which means you do not change your SPD stat. It really is that simple.
Now if I take EX PP? That says "Add 3d4 to the Speed attribute" so that would change your SPD.
If I take the Running skill? that adds 4d4 to the Speed attribute.
But Sonic Speed? Nope, not a word about the Speed attribute.
Which is why I say that it doesn't apply here... because you didn't change the attribute itself.

[Hawk258]

Bottom line, you are chewing up game time with a dual explanation of a power. If a player said 'only a-g are active full time h is selective" (meaning 2 bonuses when it fits the player).

As this debate continues among others it is unsatisfactory to the player. (Because here we are!) And leaves the power in limbo.


So pick one, or don't allow the.power in your play.

It removes conflict at the table and keeps play going.

I quite literally do not understand what you are saying here.
The power is pretty clear.
It says "You get these things here"
And that is all you get. You do not get anything else.
You get to change only one stat (PE) because the power says to change that one stat. You do not get to change any other stat... because the power does not say to change any other stat.

There is no need to discuss if I would allow the power in my game or not (for the record I do). All I have to do is simply read the book and say "You get what the book says you get. no more, no less"
And no part of that says that you change your SPD stat... which means you do not change your SPD stat. It really is that simple.
Now if I take EX PP? That says "Add 3d4 to the Speed attribute" so that would change your SPD.
If I take the Running skill? that adds 4d4 to the Speed attribute.
But Sonic Speed? Nope, not a word about the Speed attribute.
Which is why I say that it doesn't apply here... because you didn't change the attribute itself.

Right which you interpreted as 2 run speed stats.

[Hawk258]

Bottom line, you are chewing up game time with a dual explanation of a power. If a player said 'only a-g are active full time h is selective" (meaning 2 bonuses when it fits the player).

As this debate continues among others it is unsatisfactory to the player. (Because here we are!) And leaves the power in limbo.


So pick one, or don't allow the.power in your play.

It removes conflict at the table and keeps play going.

not exactly I will use a simpler example of what people are saying.
lets look at a common physical skill
Running. RUE pg 317 2nd column 1st entry
" A routine of running and exercise.... {snip}
game effects can run at an even pace (1/2 speed) for a half mile for every point of PE without undue fatigue if pushing to the limit and running at maximum speed, the character can run 1/3 that distance before collapsing.
Bonuses: +1 PE, +4d$ to spd and +1d6 to SDC

so let say your characters stats are:
IQ 15
ME 15
MA 13
PS 13
PP 10
PE 11
PB 15
SPD 10

before any modifiers
you take running and roll your 4d4 and get 2, 1, 2, 4 = 9 and 2 on your 1d6 sdc

your modified attributes are now:
ME 15
MA 13
PS 13
PP 10
PE 12
PB 15
SPD 19

SDC whatever +2

and you can put a note that you can run at spd 9.5 for 6 miles without undue fatigue or run at spd 19 for 2 miles and collapse
note the only things that changed were the things that the skill (or super power) explicitly say change

And still only 1 speed stat

[Hawk258]

Page 281 Of the RUE the 8th attribute of speed is how fast you run.

Skill Running: effects speed attribute. 1 stat not activated
Extraordinary speeed: running ability speed attribute 1 stat not activated

See the inconsistency with your explanation?

HU2 page 189
Sonic speed is the power to RUN at supersonic speeds.

HU2 pg 165
Extraordinary speed
The ability to RUN

RUE PG 317
Skill Running
The ability to run

[eliakon]

Page 281 Of the RUE the 8th attribute of speed is how fast you run.

Skill Running: effects speed attribute. 1 stat not activated
Extraordinary speeed: running ability speed attribute 1 stat not activated

See the inconsistency with your explanation?

HU2 page 189
Sonic speed is the power to RUN at supersonic speeds.

HU2 pg 165
Extraordinary speed
The ability to RUN

RUE PG 317
Skill Running
The ability to run

It is still not your Speed Statistic.
You are confusing the two.
The Speed Statistic is used to provide a running speed. Sonic Speed is used to provide a running speed. but they are not the same thing.
It provides an ability to run yes. And when you run you run at a specific speed yes.
But it is not a statistic. If it were, then it would say that it changed your Speed Statistic. It does not... and for a good reason. This is because it did not change your Speed Statistic, instead what it changed what was derived from that Statistic.
Just like if someone has an ability that increases the amount of weight that they can lift, it doesnt mean that their PS changed.

This is most apparent if we look at the fact that your SPD stat convers all forms of movement. Including how fast you fly, assuming you can... but even if your a winged race you would not get to fly at Mach 1, just because you have Sonic Speed. Which if your SPD was now Mach1 you would...

So again, the power does not replace your SPD. Nor does it change the SPD. It simply replaces the number derived from SPD for the purpose of calculating how fast you can 1) run and 2) swim. That is all. It does not change SPD for any other purpose, most especially it does not cause the statistic itself to be changed in any way, shape or form.
For it to change the Speed Statistic it would have to say that it does so. It does not. Therefore to claim that you can change your stat is to add a new 13th ability to the Super Power that is not written in the book. Now that is perfectly fine as a house rule if a GM wishes to do that, and if they are fine with the side effects (such as flying races flying at the speed of sound, and the like). But it is just that... a house rule. And it is a house rule because it requires adding to the book text material that is not there.

[Hawk258]

Page 281 Of the RUE the 8th attribute of speed is how fast you run.

Skill Running: effects speed attribute. 1 stat not activated
Extraordinary speeed: running ability speed attribute 1 stat not activated

See the inconsistency with your explanation?

HU2 page 189
Sonic speed is the power to RUN at supersonic speeds.

HU2 pg 165
Extraordinary speed
The ability to RUN

RUE PG 317
Skill Running
The ability to run

It is still not your Speed Statistic.
You are confusing the two.
The Speed Statistic is used to provide a running speed. Sonic Speed is used to provide a running speed. but they are not the same thing.
It provides an ability to run yes. And when you run you run at a specific speed yes.
But it is not a statistic. If it were, then it would say that it changed your Speed Statistic. It does not... and for a good reason. This is because it did not change your Speed Statistic, instead what it changed what was derived from that Statistic.
Just like if someone has an ability that increases the amount of weight that they can lift, it doesnt mean that their PS changed.

This is most apparent if we look at the fact that your SPD stat convers all forms of movement. Including how fast you fly, assuming you can... but even if your a winged race you would not get to fly at Mach 1, just because you have Sonic Speed. Which if your SPD was now Mach1 you would...

So again, the power does not replace your SPD. Nor does it change the SPD. It simply replaces the number derived from SPD for the purpose of calculating how fast you can 1) run and 2) swim. That is all. It does not change SPD for any other purpose, most especially it does not cause the statistic itself to be changed in any way, shape or form.
For it to change the Speed Statistic it would have to say that it does so. It does not. Therefore to claim that you can change your stat is to add a new 13th ability to the Super Power that is not written in the book. Now that is perfectly fine as a house rule if a GM wishes to do that, and if they are fine with the side effects (such as flying races flying at the speed of sound, and the like). But it is just that... a house rule. And it is a house rule because it requires adding to the book text material that is not there.

For general humanoid OCC
Swimming speed is Strength x 3 RUE Page 317
Flying speed has it's own stat HU2 any flying ability as do all "self propelled" flying beings
Running speed is the 8th attribute "speed" aka Spd RUE 281
Actions/attacks per round are determined by HTH skills.
Prowess is dexterity and grace. RUE PG 317
Climbing: number of actions per round x 20 ft RUE PG 316

Example of Ground, flying, Swimming individually listed speeds listing or specifically addressed.
RUE 159 - 163
D-bees of north America pgs: 22, 32, 34,36, 48, 69, 75.
Lemuria swimming and running/slithering are always noted and specified.
Climbing speed specified page 195 of D-bees of North America

You are trying to say all movement is speed.
Each type of travel (running, swimming flying, climbing, ect) are each their own stat

[Blue_Lion]

I agree with Beast’s sentiment. I don’t believe the author intended to include Superhuman Sonic Speed.

A question would be which people can have super sonic speed AND have the skill for pilot power armor? There are not that many that have access to super powers who also have access to the rifts military vehicle piloting abilities.

X=>1 however as the Roadrunner is not a military vehicle it doesn't count. NO WEAPONS SYSTEMS.

and "most" occ can take piloting skills power armor and weapons systems are separate skills.

Not all military vehicles have weapons.
So not having a weapon does not exclude it from being a military vehicle.
However a few pilot skills in rifts are tagged as military, robot pilot is not one of them.

[Blue_Lion]

Page 281 Of the RUE the 8th attribute of speed is how fast you run.

Skill Running: effects speed attribute. 1 stat not activated
Extraordinary speeed: running ability speed attribute 1 stat not activated

See the inconsistency with your explanation?

HU2 page 189
Sonic speed is the power to RUN at supersonic speeds.

HU2 pg 165
Extraordinary speed
The ability to RUN

RUE PG 317
Skill Running
The ability to run

It is still not your Speed Statistic.
You are confusing the two.
The Speed Statistic is used to provide a running speed. Sonic Speed is used to provide a running speed. but they are not the same thing.
It provides an ability to run yes. And when you run you run at a specific speed yes.
But it is not a statistic. If it were, then it would say that it changed your Speed Statistic. It does not... and for a good reason. This is because it did not change your Speed Statistic, instead what it changed what was derived from that Statistic.
Just like if someone has an ability that increases the amount of weight that they can lift, it doesnt mean that their PS changed.

This is most apparent if we look at the fact that your SPD stat convers all forms of movement. Including how fast you fly, assuming you can... but even if your a winged race you would not get to fly at Mach 1, just because you have Sonic Speed. Which if your SPD was now Mach1 you would...

So again, the power does not replace your SPD. Nor does it change the SPD. It simply replaces the number derived from SPD for the purpose of calculating how fast you can 1) run and 2) swim. That is all. It does not change SPD for any other purpose, most especially it does not cause the statistic itself to be changed in any way, shape or form.
For it to change the Speed Statistic it would have to say that it does so. It does not. Therefore to claim that you can change your stat is to add a new 13th ability to the Super Power that is not written in the book. Now that is perfectly fine as a house rule if a GM wishes to do that, and if they are fine with the side effects (such as flying races flying at the speed of sound, and the like). But it is just that... a house rule. And it is a house rule because it requires adding to the book text material that is not there.

Umm mechanically they kind of are the same thing. Effectively it replaces you speed stat, I think it is just they never bothered calculating what the speed stat would be, so never gave the value of he modified speed. You would have a effective speed stat of about 982.(1 point of speed is about .68 MPH and sonic speed was said to be about 670 MPH.) If you convert it to a speed stat then you can use the rules for movement to track how far the charter moves per action.

Basically while the rules do not tell you to convert speed things move at to a speed stat it is needed to use the rules for movement.

[Blue_Lion]

Page 281 Of the RUE the 8th attribute of speed is how fast you run.

Skill Running: effects speed attribute. 1 stat not activated
Extraordinary speeed: running ability speed attribute 1 stat not activated

See the inconsistency with your explanation?

HU2 page 189
Sonic speed is the power to RUN at supersonic speeds.

HU2 pg 165
Extraordinary speed
The ability to RUN

RUE PG 317
Skill Running
The ability to run

It is still not your Speed Statistic.
You are confusing the two.
The Speed Statistic is used to provide a running speed. Sonic Speed is used to provide a running speed. but they are not the same thing.
It provides an ability to run yes. And when you run you run at a specific speed yes.
But it is not a statistic. If it were, then it would say that it changed your Speed Statistic. It does not... and for a good reason. This is because it did not change your Speed Statistic, instead what it changed what was derived from that Statistic.
Just like if someone has an ability that increases the amount of weight that they can lift, it doesnt mean that their PS changed.

This is most apparent if we look at the fact that your SPD stat convers all forms of movement. Including how fast you fly, assuming you can... but even if your a winged race you would not get to fly at Mach 1, just because you have Sonic Speed. Which if your SPD was now Mach1 you would...

So again, the power does not replace your SPD. Nor does it change the SPD. It simply replaces the number derived from SPD for the purpose of calculating how fast you can 1) run and 2) swim. That is all. It does not change SPD for any other purpose, most especially it does not cause the statistic itself to be changed in any way, shape or form.
For it to change the Speed Statistic it would have to say that it does so. It does not. Therefore to claim that you can change your stat is to add a new 13th ability to the Super Power that is not written in the book. Now that is perfectly fine as a house rule if a GM wishes to do that, and if they are fine with the side effects (such as flying races flying at the speed of sound, and the like). But it is just that... a house rule. And it is a house rule because it requires adding to the book text material that is not there.

Umm mechanically they kind of are the same thing. Effectively it replaces you speed stat, I think it is just they never bothered calculating what the speed stat would be, so never gave the value of he modified speed. You would have a effective speed stat of about 982.(1 point of speed is about .68 MPH and sonic speed was said to be about 670 MPH.) If you convert it to a speed stat then you can use the rules for movement to track how far the charter moves per action.

Basically while the rules do not tell you to convert speed things move at to a speed stat it is needed to use the rules for movement.

[dreicunan]

Hawk, you seem to be laboring under the misinterpretation that Sonic Speed is an "activated" power in the way that, say, an APS power is. It isn't. It is always on, granting you all of its bonuses, including the ABILITY to run at 700 mph. You don't only get the nightvision, bonus SDC, or extra attacks when you are running.

[Hawk258]

Hawk, you seem to be laboring under the misinterpretation that Sonic Speed is an "activated" power in the way that, say, an APS power is. It isn't. It is always on, granting you all of its bonuses, including the ABILITY to run at 700 mph. You don't only get the nightvision, bonus SDC, or extra attacks when you are running.

No. I have state it isn't
reread my posts and get the context. Reread the other posts

Someone else claimed "sonic speed" ability was "activated" and claimed sonic speed did not apply to spd stat.

Claiming the bonuses were (correctly) static.
But incorrectly that "the sonic speed" of running at mach1 was "activated and did not apply to the RUN speed stat"
Causing there to be a speed stat and a "run" for Sonic speed.

I told them to either treat it as an APS or as the run stat not both.

They were also treating Speed (the 8th stat) as all movement (flying ect) as I noted in my previous post

[Hawk258]

Dreicunan please reread this

It is still not your Speed Statistic.
You are confusing the two.
The Speed Statistic is used to provide a running speed. Sonic Speed is used to provide a running speed. but they are not the same thing.
It provides an ability to run yes. And when you run you run at a specific speed yes.
But it is not a statistic. If it were, then it would say that it changed your Speed Statistic. It does not... and for a good reason. This is because it did not change your Speed Statistic, instead what it changed what was derived from that Statistic.
Just like if someone has an ability that increases the amount of weight that they can lift, it doesnt mean that their PS changed.

This is most apparent if we look at the fact that your SPD stat convers all forms of movement. Including how fast you fly, assuming you can... but even if your a winged race you would not get to fly at Mach 1, just because you have Sonic Speed. Which if your SPD was now Mach1 you would...

So again, the power does not replace your SPD. Nor does it change the SPD. It simply replaces the number derived from SPD for the purpose of calculating how fast you can 1) run and 2) swim. That is all. It does not change SPD for any other purpose, most especially it does not cause the statistic itself to be changed in any way, shape or form.
For it to change the Speed Statistic it would have to say that it does so. It does not. Therefore to claim that you can change your stat is to add a new 13th ability to the Super Power that is not written in the book. Now that is perfectly fine as a house rule if a GM wishes to do that, and if they are fine with the side effects (such as flying races flying at the speed of sound, and the like). But it is just that... a house rule. And it is a house rule because it requires adding to the book text material that is not there.

[Hawk258]

Draicunan reread this one

I quite literally do not understand what you are saying here.
The power is pretty clear.
It says "You get these things here"
And that is all you get. You do not get anything else.
You get to change only one stat (PE) because the power says to change that one stat. You do not get to change any other stat... because the power does not say to change any other stat.

There is no need to discuss if I would allow the power in my game or not (for the record I do). All I have to do is simply read the book and say "You get what the book says you get. no more, no less"
And no part of that says that you change your SPD stat... which means you do not change your SPD stat. It really is that simple.
Now if I take EX PP? That says "Add 3d4 to the Speed attribute" so that would change your SPD.
If I take the Running skill? that adds 4d4 to the Speed attribute.
But Sonic Speed? Nope, not a word about the Speed attribute.
Which is why I say that it doesn't apply here... because you didn't change the attribute itself.

[Hawk258]

Draicunan read here

As far as i remember, Sonic Speed does not change your SPD attribute.

It merely grants you an ability to run at any speed between zero and Mach 1.

You still have to roll your traditional SPD attribute. This would reflect your non-super-powered speed.

So, sure, the Roadrunner can triple your SPD attribute. Sonic Speed is not your SPD attribute.

[Hawk258]

Right, yet all my combat bonus, dodge, parry ect. Are also tied to the highest speed attribute.

So again do I list 2 listings for each of those?

The point is. Speed is a raw number. Fps, mph, ect.

You treat SS as an alter physical form ability, yet no stacking bonuses. You must use the highest stat.

As if you take both Extraordinary Speed and sonic speed you only use the highest bonus, and you do not apply the speed bonus to the lower speed attribute.

Either, they split, or you only have 1.if there were supposed to be 2 spd listings.

Additionally as all combat stats relating to sonic speed are treated as "automatic" ie I don't specify if I am using spd vs Ss power, then Then the sonic speed becomes the base Spd stat

Additionally when taking skills that increase speed they are NOT added to the speed if its treated as a separate stat.

In otherwords either you have 2 listings for "normal speed and SDC/APR/P,D,RwP, ext" or you have 1 stat.
In otherwords. K.I.S.S..

I am trying to treat sonic speed as written. Run Spd attribute "982" (aka 670mph) and STATIC bonuses

he claimed the SS was "activated" and NOT the Run speed attribute and the bonuses were static. spd 3d6 then "mach 1" when sonic speed activated. Yet all other stat changes static.
Getting the best for the gm and the worst for the player.

I said either treat it like an APS across the whole power or 982 is the static running speed and all bonuses static.

IE pick 1 it can't be both

And explaining to him that the Speed attribute is broken down by "type" running is the "standard" speed, there is flight speed, swim speed, and climb speed and each are specified as necessary.

He is treating speed as "all in one movement"

[dreicunan]

Right, yet all my combat bonus, dodge, parry ect. Are also tied to the highest speed attribute.

So again do I list 2 listings for each of those?

The point is. Speed is a raw number. Fps, mph, ect.

You treat SS as an alter physical form ability, yet no stacking bonuses. You must use the highest stat.

As if you take both Extraordinary Speed and sonic speed you only use the highest bonus, and you do not apply the speed bonus to the lower speed attribute.

Either, they split, or you only have 1.if there were supposed to be 2 spd listings.

Additionally as all combat stats relating to sonic speed are treated as "automatic" ie I don't specify if I am using spd vs Ss power, then Then the sonic speed becomes the base Spd stat

Additionally when taking skills that increase speed they are NOT added to the speed if its treated as a separate stat.

In otherwords either you have 2 listings for "normal speed and SDC/APR/P,D,RwP, ext" or you have 1 stat.
In otherwords. K.I.S.S..

I am trying to treat sonic speed as written. Run Spd attribute "982" (aka 670mph) and STATIC bonuses

he claimed the SS was "activated" and NOT the Run speed attribute and the bonuses were static. spd 3d6 then "mach 1" when sonic speed activated. Yet all other stat changes static.
Getting the best for the gm and the worst for the player.

I said either treat it like an APS across the whole power or 982 is the static running speed and all bonuses static.

IE pick 1 it can't be both

And explaining to him that the Speed attribute is broken down by "type" running is the "standard" speed, there is flight speed, swim speed, and climb speed and each are specified as necessary.

He is treating speed as "all in one movement"

First, the name is spelled D-R-E-I-C-U-N-A-N. Second, no, you aren't treating it as written. It clearly does not grant you a SPD attribute bonus. It clearly grants you the ability to run at Mach 1, or approximately 700 mph (not 670, I have to note; if you are going to claim to treat a power as written, you would do well to note what is actually written). It does not alter your SPD stat. Colonel_Tetsuya and Eliakon have the right of it. Your SPD attribute is whatever your SPD attribute is as a result of initial attribute rolls and any skills or powers that increase the SPD attribute. With Sonic Speed, you can also run at Mach 1. The ability to run at Mach 1 does not change your SPD stat. This is important to keep in mind. A great example would be that if you are a human who has sonic speed, then gets juiced, you add 2d4x10 to your SPD attribute. Your top running speed is still Mach 1, because your top running speed is a function of the Sonic Speed power and not your SPD attribute (due to it being far above the top speed granted by your SPD attribute). However, your SPD attribute would come into play if you suddenly ran into someone who can suppress your super-powers.

We also know this because of the Slow and Ponderous Achilles' Heel, which reduces SPD by half or to 8, whichever is lower, but also allows them to move faster than that when using that a power that grants superspeed, but moving at only "half the usual speed provided by it" and also halving all other bonuses. If Sonic Speed granted a bonus to the SPD attribute, then that stat would be reduced to 8. It doesn't grant a bonus to SPD, however. It grants that ability to run at Mach 1. Notice that all these flight and super speed powers grant a specific speed, not a bonus to the SPD stat. The same holds true for Extraordinary Speed. Contrast that with Extraordinary Physical Prowess, which gives a bonus of 3d4 to the SPD attribute. A Mega-Hero with the Slow and Ponderous Achilles' Heel that also has Extraordinary Physical Prowess would, on average, end up with a SPD of 8 (or maybe less with really bad rolls), but the other bonuses would remain intact because it doesn't grant superspeed. It just grants a bonus to the SPD stat (and "increased speed" is not the same as superspeed).

[Hawk258]

Right, yet all my combat bonus, dodge, parry ect. Are also tied to the highest speed attribute.

So again do I list 2 listings for each of those?

The point is. Speed is a raw number. Fps, mph, ect.

You treat SS as an alter physical form ability, yet no stacking bonuses. You must use the highest stat.

As if you take both Extraordinary Speed and sonic speed you only use the highest bonus, and you do not apply the speed bonus to the lower speed attribute.

Either, they split, or you only have 1.if there were supposed to be 2 spd listings.

Additionally as all combat stats relating to sonic speed are treated as "automatic" ie I don't specify if I am using spd vs Ss power, then Then the sonic speed becomes the base Spd stat

Additionally when taking skills that increase speed they are NOT added to the speed if its treated as a separate stat.

In otherwords either you have 2 listings for "normal speed and SDC/APR/P,D,RwP, ext" or you have 1 stat.
In otherwords. K.I.S.S..

I am trying to treat sonic speed as written. Run Spd attribute "982" (aka 670mph) and STATIC bonuses

he claimed the SS was "activated" and NOT the Run speed attribute and the bonuses were static. spd 3d6 then "mach 1" when sonic speed activated. Yet all other stat changes static.
Getting the best for the gm and the worst for the player.

I said either treat it like an APS across the whole power or 982 is the static running speed and all bonuses static.

IE pick 1 it can't be both

And explaining to him that the Speed attribute is broken down by "type" running is the "standard" speed, there is flight speed, swim speed, and climb speed and each are specified as necessary.

He is treating speed as "all in one movement"

First, the name is spelled D-R-E-I-C-U-N-A-N. Second, no, you aren't treating it as written. It clearly does not grant you a SPD attribute bonus. It clearly grants you the ability to run at Mach 1, or approximately 700 mph (not 670, I have to note; if you are going to claim to treat a power as written, you would do well to note what is actually written). It does not alter your SPD stat. Colonel_Tetsuya and Eliakon have the right of it. Your SPD attribute is whatever your SPD attribute is as a result of initial attribute rolls and any skills or powers that increase the SPD attribute. With Sonic Speed, you can also run at Mach 1. The ability to run at Mach 1 does not change your SPD stat. This is important to keep in mind. A great example would be that if you are a human who has sonic speed, then gets juiced, you add 2d4x10 to your SPD attribute. Your top running speed is still Mach 1, because your top running speed is a function of the Sonic Speed power and not your SPD attribute (due to it being far above the top speed granted by your SPD attribute). However, your SPD attribute would come into play if you suddenly ran into someone who can suppress your super-powers.

We also know this because of the Slow and Ponderous Achilles' Heel, which reduces SPD by half or to 8, whichever is lower, but also allows them to move faster than that when using that a power that grants superspeed, but moving at only "half the usual speed provided by it" and also halving all other bonuses. If Sonic Speed granted a bonus to the SPD attribute, then that stat would be reduced to 8. It doesn't grant a bonus to SPD, however. It grants that ability to run at Mach 1. Notice that all these flight and super speed powers grant a specific speed, not a bonus to the SPD stat. The same holds true for Extraordinary Speed. Contrast that with Extraordinary Physical Prowess, which gives a bonus of 3d4 to the SPD attribute. A Mega-Hero with the Slow and Ponderous Achilles' Heel that also has Extraordinary Physical Prowess would, on average, end up with a SPD of 8 (or maybe less with really bad rolls), but the other bonuses would remain intact because it doesn't grant superspeed. It just grants a bonus to the SPD stat (and "increased speed" is not the same as superspeed).

Make up your God d@#^^ mind. Either it is the "Run speed attribute" or its NOT

And as you just noted flight. Climbing, and swimming are always noted as their own speed WHERE applicable!

You are trying to "activate" Running. RUE page 281 Speed is how FAST your CHARACTER CAN RUN.

A CHARACTER WITH SONIC SPEED CAN RUN 670MPH OR A STAT OF 982 (FPS) which means when Achilles heel is used the speed uses 8

For characters without the natural ability to swim, swim speed is 0 unless the skill swim is selected. If the skill is selected it is 3x Physical strength.

For characters without natural climbing abilities the speed of climb is 0 if the skill is taken it is the number of actions x20.

If the character does not have the natural ability to fly the speed is 0. If the character gets a means of flight the stat is listed with that. Either mechanical or natural or magical.

If the character lacks legs Run speed is 0
And their natural means is listed accordingly.

[eliakon]

Right, yet all my combat bonus, dodge, parry ect. Are also tied to the highest speed attribute.

So again do I list 2 listings for each of those?

The point is. Speed is a raw number. Fps, mph, ect.

You treat SS as an alter physical form ability, yet no stacking bonuses. You must use the highest stat.

As if you take both Extraordinary Speed and sonic speed you only use the highest bonus, and you do not apply the speed bonus to the lower speed attribute.

Either, they split, or you only have 1.if there were supposed to be 2 spd listings.

Additionally as all combat stats relating to sonic speed are treated as "automatic" ie I don't specify if I am using spd vs Ss power, then Then the sonic speed becomes the base Spd stat

Additionally when taking skills that increase speed they are NOT added to the speed if its treated as a separate stat.

In otherwords either you have 2 listings for "normal speed and SDC/APR/P,D,RwP, ext" or you have 1 stat.
In otherwords. K.I.S.S..

I am trying to treat sonic speed as written. Run Spd attribute "982" (aka 670mph) and STATIC bonuses

he claimed the SS was "activated" and NOT the Run speed attribute and the bonuses were static. spd 3d6 then "mach 1" when sonic speed activated. Yet all other stat changes static.
Getting the best for the gm and the worst for the player.

I said either treat it like an APS across the whole power or 982 is the static running speed and all bonuses static.

IE pick 1 it can't be both

And explaining to him that the Speed attribute is broken down by "type" running is the "standard" speed, there is flight speed, swim speed, and climb speed and each are specified as necessary.

He is treating speed as "all in one movement"

First, the name is spelled D-R-E-I-C-U-N-A-N. Second, no, you aren't treating it as written. It clearly does not grant you a SPD attribute bonus. It clearly grants you the ability to run at Mach 1, or approximately 700 mph (not 670, I have to note; if you are going to claim to treat a power as written, you would do well to note what is actually written). It does not alter your SPD stat. Colonel_Tetsuya and Eliakon have the right of it. Your SPD attribute is whatever your SPD attribute is as a result of initial attribute rolls and any skills or powers that increase the SPD attribute. With Sonic Speed, you can also run at Mach 1. The ability to run at Mach 1 does not change your SPD stat. This is important to keep in mind. A great example would be that if you are a human who has sonic speed, then gets juiced, you add 2d4x10 to your SPD attribute. Your top running speed is still Mach 1, because your top running speed is a function of the Sonic Speed power and not your SPD attribute (due to it being far above the top speed granted by your SPD attribute). However, your SPD attribute would come into play if you suddenly ran into someone who can suppress your super-powers.

We also know this because of the Slow and Ponderous Achilles' Heel, which reduces SPD by half or to 8, whichever is lower, but also allows them to move faster than that when using that a power that grants superspeed, but moving at only "half the usual speed provided by it" and also halving all other bonuses. If Sonic Speed granted a bonus to the SPD attribute, then that stat would be reduced to 8. It doesn't grant a bonus to SPD, however. It grants that ability to run at Mach 1. Notice that all these flight and super speed powers grant a specific speed, not a bonus to the SPD stat. The same holds true for Extraordinary Speed. Contrast that with Extraordinary Physical Prowess, which gives a bonus of 3d4 to the SPD attribute. A Mega-Hero with the Slow and Ponderous Achilles' Heel that also has Extraordinary Physical Prowess would, on average, end up with a SPD of 8 (or maybe less with really bad rolls), but the other bonuses would remain intact because it doesn't grant superspeed. It just grants a bonus to the SPD stat (and "increased speed" is not the same as superspeed).

Make up your <censored> mind. Either it is the "Run speed attribute" or its NOT

And as you just noted flight. Climbing, and swimming are always noted as their own speed WHERE applicable!

You are trying to "activate" Running. RUE page 281 Speed is how FAST your CHARACTER CAN RUN.

A CHARACTER WITH SONIC SPEED CAN RUN 670MPH OR A STAT OF 982 (FPS) which means when Achilles heel is used the speed uses 8

(I edited your quote as I was not going to repost the profanity, the rest is untouched though)
We *did* make up our mind.
The SPD stat is the stat that determines running speed yes. No one is arguing that. On that point everyone is in agreement.
What the rest of us disagree on is that you can only have a running speed that is equal to your speed stat, because its not the case.
You can actually run faster than your SPD stat would allow you to move if you have something that changes your movement.
In this case you have Sonic Speed. It changes your running speed... so your SPD stat is still low, but your Running Speed is high, because the power boosts it over the normal levels.

The best example is the one Dreicunan cited.
Megahero with Sonic Speed and then the Slow and Ponderous heel.
Their SPD stat is an 8. But they still run at half the speed of sound.
Note that their SPD stat is set to a maximum of 8, and yet that they are able to have super movement? It is almost as if the super movement is considered a separate thing from their SPD.... which is because it is.
Just because A -> B does not always mean that B-> A
In this case, the calculation is not reversable. (I do not know the proper mathimatical terms for this, and I don't really care to look them up)
You can get running from SPD, but you can not get SPD from your running. Because there are things that can change the speed you run at that dont change your SPD.

Look at it another way. If we say that your SPD stat is the speed you run at... then all Roadrunner power armors can run infinately fast.
After all, as soon as you start running, your speed triples. Which is now your new speed since its your running speed. Which then triples. Which....

[Hawk258]

Right, yet all my combat bonus, dodge, parry ect. Are also tied to the highest speed attribute.

So again do I list 2 listings for each of those?

The point is. Speed is a raw number. Fps, mph, ect.

You treat SS as an alter physical form ability, yet no stacking bonuses. You must use the highest stat.

As if you take both Extraordinary Speed and sonic speed you only use the highest bonus, and you do not apply the speed bonus to the lower speed attribute.

Either, they split, or you only have 1.if there were supposed to be 2 spd listings.

Additionally as all combat stats relating to sonic speed are treated as "automatic" ie I don't specify if I am using spd vs Ss power, then Then the sonic speed becomes the base Spd stat

Additionally when taking skills that increase speed they are NOT added to the speed if its treated as a separate stat.

In otherwords either you have 2 listings for "normal speed and SDC/APR/P,D,RwP, ext" or you have 1 stat.
In otherwords. K.I.S.S..

I am trying to treat sonic speed as written. Run Spd attribute "982" (aka 670mph) and STATIC bonuses

he claimed the SS was "activated" and NOT the Run speed attribute and the bonuses were static. spd 3d6 then "mach 1" when sonic speed activated. Yet all other stat changes static.
Getting the best for the gm and the worst for the player.

I said either treat it like an APS across the whole power or 982 is the static running speed and all bonuses static.

IE pick 1 it can't be both

And explaining to him that the Speed attribute is broken down by "type" running is the "standard" speed, there is flight speed, swim speed, and climb speed and each are specified as necessary.

He is treating speed as "all in one movement"

First, the name is spelled D-R-E-I-C-U-N-A-N. Second, no, you aren't treating it as written. It clearly does not grant you a SPD attribute bonus. It clearly grants you the ability to run at Mach 1, or approximately 700 mph (not 670, I have to note; if you are going to claim to treat a power as written, you would do well to note what is actually written). It does not alter your SPD stat. Colonel_Tetsuya and Eliakon have the right of it. Your SPD attribute is whatever your SPD attribute is as a result of initial attribute rolls and any skills or powers that increase the SPD attribute. With Sonic Speed, you can also run at Mach 1. The ability to run at Mach 1 does not change your SPD stat. This is important to keep in mind. A great example would be that if you are a human who has sonic speed, then gets juiced, you add 2d4x10 to your SPD attribute. Your top running speed is still Mach 1, because your top running speed is a function of the Sonic Speed power and not your SPD attribute (due to it being far above the top speed granted by your SPD attribute). However, your SPD attribute would come into play if you suddenly ran into someone who can suppress your super-powers.

We also know this because of the Slow and Ponderous Achilles' Heel, which reduces SPD by half or to 8, whichever is lower, but also allows them to move faster than that when using that a power that grants superspeed, but moving at only "half the usual speed provided by it" and also halving all other bonuses. If Sonic Speed granted a bonus to the SPD attribute, then that stat would be reduced to 8. It doesn't grant a bonus to SPD, however. It grants that ability to run at Mach 1. Notice that all these flight and super speed powers grant a specific speed, not a bonus to the SPD stat. The same holds true for Extraordinary Speed. Contrast that with Extraordinary Physical Prowess, which gives a bonus of 3d4 to the SPD attribute. A Mega-Hero with the Slow and Ponderous Achilles' Heel that also has Extraordinary Physical Prowess would, on average, end up with a SPD of 8 (or maybe less with really bad rolls), but the other bonuses would remain intact because it doesn't grant superspeed. It just grants a bonus to the SPD stat (and "increased speed" is not the same as superspeed).

Make up your <censored> mind. Either it is the "Run speed attribute" or its NOT

And as you just noted flight. Climbing, and swimming are always noted as their own speed WHERE applicable!

You are trying to "activate" Running. RUE page 281 Speed is how FAST your CHARACTER CAN RUN.

A CHARACTER WITH SONIC SPEED CAN RUN 670MPH OR A STAT OF 982 (FPS) which means when Achilles heel is used the speed uses 8

(I edited your quote as I was not going to repost the profanity, the rest is untouched though)
We *did* make up our mind.
The SPD stat is the stat that determines running speed yes. No one is arguing that. On that point everyone is in agreement.
What the rest of us disagree on is that you can only have a running speed that is equal to your speed stat, because its not the case.
You can actually run faster than your SPD stat would allow you to move if you have something that changes your movement.
In this case you have Sonic Speed. It changes your running speed... so your SPD stat is still low, but your Running Speed is high, because the power boosts it over the normal levels.

The best example is the one Dreicunan cited.
Megahero with Sonic Speed and then the Slow and Ponderous heel.
Their SPD stat is an 8. But they still run at half the speed of sound.
Note that their SPD stat is set to a maximum of 8, and yet that they are able to have super movement? It is almost as if the super movement is considered a separate thing from their SPD.... which is because it is.

Either it is the run stat or not. Treat it accordingly either it all activated or it is the stat.

Run is run is run

RUE PG 281 read it.

[eliakon]

Spoiler:

[
I am trying to treat sonic speed as written. Run Spd attribute "982" (aka 670mph) and STATIC bonuses

he claimed the SS was "activated" and NOT the Run speed attribute and the bonuses were static. spd 3d6 then "mach 1" when sonic speed activated. Yet all other stat changes static.
Getting the best for the gm and the worst for the player.

I said either treat it like an APS across the whole power or 982 is the static running speed and all bonuses static.

IE pick 1 it can't be both

And explaining to him that the Speed attribute is broken down by "type" running is the "standard" speed, there is flight speed, swim speed, and climb speed and each are specified as necessary.

He is treating speed as "all in one movement"

First, the name is spelled D-R-E-I-C-U-N-A-N. Second, no, you aren't treating it as written. It clearly does not grant you a SPD attribute bonus. It clearly grants you the ability to run at Mach 1, or approximately 700 mph (not 670, I have to note; if you are going to claim to treat a power as written, you would do well to note what is actually written). It does not alter your SPD stat. Colonel_Tetsuya and Eliakon have the right of it. Your SPD attribute is whatever your SPD attribute is as a result of initial attribute rolls and any skills or powers that increase the SPD attribute. With Sonic Speed, you can also run at Mach 1. The ability to run at Mach 1 does not change your SPD stat. This is important to keep in mind. A great example would be that if you are a human who has sonic speed, then gets juiced, you add 2d4x10 to your SPD attribute. Your top running speed is still Mach 1, because your top running speed is a function of the Sonic Speed power and not your SPD attribute (due to it being far above the top speed granted by your SPD attribute). However, your SPD attribute would come into play if you suddenly ran into someone who can suppress your super-powers.

We also know this because of the Slow and Ponderous Achilles' Heel, which reduces SPD by half or to 8, whichever is lower, but also allows them to move faster than that when using that a power that grants superspeed, but moving at only "half the usual speed provided by it" and also halving all other bonuses. If Sonic Speed granted a bonus to the SPD attribute, then that stat would be reduced to 8. It doesn't grant a bonus to SPD, however. It grants that ability to run at Mach 1. Notice that all these flight and super speed powers grant a specific speed, not a bonus to the SPD stat. The same holds true for Extraordinary Speed. Contrast that with Extraordinary Physical Prowess, which gives a bonus of 3d4 to the SPD attribute. A Mega-Hero with the Slow and Ponderous Achilles' Heel that also has Extraordinary Physical Prowess would, on average, end up with a SPD of 8 (or maybe less with really bad rolls), but the other bonuses would remain intact because it doesn't grant superspeed. It just grants a bonus to the SPD stat (and "increased speed" is not the same as superspeed).

Make up your <censored> mind. Either it is the "Run speed attribute" or its NOT

And as you just noted flight. Climbing, and swimming are always noted as their own speed WHERE applicable!

You are trying to "activate" Running. RUE page 281 Speed is how FAST your CHARACTER CAN RUN.

A CHARACTER WITH SONIC SPEED CAN RUN 670MPH OR A STAT OF 982 (FPS) which means when Achilles heel is used the speed uses 8

(I edited your quote as I was not going to repost the profanity, the rest is untouched though)
We *did* make up our mind.
The SPD stat is the stat that determines running speed yes. No one is arguing that. On that point everyone is in agreement.
What the rest of us disagree on is that you can only have a running speed that is equal to your speed stat, because its not the case.
You can actually run faster than your SPD stat would allow you to move if you have something that changes your movement.
In this case you have Sonic Speed. It changes your running speed... so your SPD stat is still low, but your Running Speed is high, because the power boosts it over the normal levels.

The best example is the one Dreicunan cited.
Megahero with Sonic Speed and then the Slow and Ponderous heel.
Their SPD stat is an 8. But they still run at half the speed of sound.
Note that their SPD stat is set to a maximum of 8, and yet that they are able to have super movement? It is almost as if the super movement is considered a separate thing from their SPD.... which is because it is.

Either it is the run stat or not. Treat it accordingly either it all activated or it is the stat.

Thats just it.
It is NOT the stat.
You are reversing a non reversable calculation.
Yes, SPD is the stat that determines normal running speeds.
However, you can have other running speeds besides the one offered by your SPD if one of a number of variables is in play. One of those is this power.

I put it in an edit above, but I will repost it here.
Thought exercise about the Roadrunner that helps to demonstrate why "the speed I can run at" does not get reversed into "my SPD stat"
You put on the power armor.
Now you can run three times faster than you could before.
So you have to triple your SPD stat... after all your running.
And then you have to triple it again.
And again.

Or
You can be running faster than your SPD.

Sonic Speed is exactly like that.

[Hawk258]

Think about it....

Either "I run faster than my run stat" (cheating)

Or my run stat is my run stat.

[eliakon]

Think about it....

Either "I run faster than my run stat" (cheating)

Or my run stat is my run stat.

You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

You keep saying "run stat" as if this is some mathematical formula that can be solved backwards and forwards. Its not It is a statistic on your character sheet, that is generated by rolling dice, and then can only be changed by things that say that they can change your statistics.

You also keep ignoring the fact that the books flat out tell us that you can run faster than your Spd stat, because they step by step walk us through the procedure with Megaheroes.

You also keep ignoring the fact that this power does not change your stat at all. Because as we have pointed out (and you keep ignoring) you still need your actual SPD for any and all other uses that may come up. Because Sonic Speed only covers running.

Simply repeating "its the running stat" over and over while ignoring all the arguments is not going to make any of the flaws in your argument go away. Especially since no one disagrees with you that its "the running stat". Where we all disagree with you is that you seem to think you can take your running speed, even if it has been changed by something, and call that your stat. Its not. You only change your stats when the game tells you to change them. And it has to explicitly say to change a statistic for a statistic to be changed. There is no "implicit" change.
And in this case... you simply gain the super power to run faster than your SPD stat would otherwise let you. Which is why it is a super power. After all, if you had a SPD stat that high you wouldnt need the power in the first place

Do you have an actual, in game citation, that says "if you gain the ability to run faster than your SPD stat says, you are allowed to change your stat to match your new speed"?
Because if you do, then its case closed. Otherwise it seems that the rules tell us the exact opposite in HU2 and since that is the only Palladium book that has any written rules that I am aware of on the issue of someone with both a SPD stat and enhanced move it would seem that the canon is pretty firmly set already.

[Hawk258]

RUE page 281 "speed is how fast you RUN"
HU2 page 189 "allows the character to RUN 670 Mph"

Your character can run 670MPH it is the speed stat.

And it isn't irreversible. There is damage, side effects, spell, augmentation ect.

[eliakon]

RUE page 281 "speed is how fast you RUN"
HU2 page 189 "allows the character to RUN 670 Mph"

Your character can run 670MPH it is the speed stat.

And it isn't irreversible. There is damage, side effects, spell, augmentation ect.

And yet again you ignore the fact that we have shown you the actual rule on the subject (HU2, page 184) you ignore it.

Heck i could repost my entire last post here... since you just did the same thing. You cut out all the arguments with all their evidence that weighs against your case. You then take your initial premise and repost that circularly demonstrating that by stating that since your Speed Stat -> your Running Speed that your Running Speed is, and must always be also Running Speed -> SPD. Never mind the actual, printed rule that says otherwise.

So far all you have done to make your case is repeat the same thing, over and over. Every time anyone posts anything you trim away the argumentation and simply repost your premise.
But simply making a claim does not make it true. Especially if there is published evidence of a counter claim.
Since I can make a book legal character with both SPD 8 and Sonic Speed... that tells me that it is not possible for Sonic Speed to replace my SPD stat, since that would mean that one of the two things would have to be false. And the HU2 book says that both are true.

So. If you have a rebuttal to the actual arguments? I will be happy to hear them. I will be happy to discuss the actual arguments.
But if all you wish to do is to try argumentation by repetition where in you simply repeat your same claim over and over again, with no evidence other than your already debunked claim about how the SPD stat must always be equal to your running speed?
Well in that case since you have no intention of discussing things, I will not bother to waste my time posting.

[Hawk258]

RUE page 281 "speed is how fast you RUN"
HU2 page 189 "allows the character to RUN 670 Mph"

Your character can run 670MPH it is the speed stat.

And it isn't irreversible. There is damage, side effects, spell, augmentation ect.

And yet again you ignore the fact that we have shown you the actual rule on the subject (HU2, page 184) you ignore it.

Heck i could repost my entire last post here... since you just did the same thing. You cut out all the arguments with all their evidence that weighs against your case. You then take your initial premise and repost that circularly demonstrating that by stating that since your Speed Stat -> your Running Speed that your Running Speed is, and must always be also Running Speed -> SPD. Never mind the actual, printed rule that says otherwise.

So far all you have done to make your case is repeat the same thing, over and over. Every time anyone posts anything you trim away the argumentation and simply repost your premise.
But simply making a claim does not make it true. Especially if there is published evidence of a counter claim.
Since I can make a book legal character with both SPD 8 and Sonic Speed... that tells me that it is not possible for Sonic Speed to replace my SPD stat, since that would mean that one of the two things would have to be false. And the HU2 book says that both are true.

So. If you have a rebuttal to the actual arguments? I will be happy to hear them. I will be happy to discuss the actual arguments.
But if all you wish to do is to try argumentation by repetition where in you simply repeat your same claim over and over again, with no evidence other than your already debunked claim about how the SPD stat must always be equal to your running speed?
Well in that case since you have no intention of discussing things, I will not bother to waste my time posting.

Page 184 of hu2 is grown to invisibility

Well if the character got both the sonic speed then Achilles heel he's screwed. Just like an individual who is struck dumb.
If he gets Achilles heel, he has a speed of 8. Is unable to run 670 mph.

Same applies to addiction, crazy heroes, and others.

A crazy hero with darkness control but a day time complex or solar syndrome screwed

Or a psychic turned into a full conversation borg... screwed

Or a magic user that is born mute... or locked into a vehicle or armor... screwed

A rogue scientist with alcoholism
Or gets a parasite that take 20% IQ

Or a man at arms that has pacifism screwed


As for negate super powers it is plainly written that it CANNOT effect physical attributes (villains unlimited page 32)