Siege on Tolkeen Series

[Lenwen]

The Coalition is at fault for starting the aggression. They are NOT responsible for the actions that Tolkien engaged in following the start. A person is only responsible for their own actions, not the actions that the other person takes in response.

In civility yes. This is a truth..

But in a war time scenario .. it is a logic of folly ..

The side that started the war .. is at fault .

[Akashic Soldier]

Len, No.

[Lenwen]

Len, No.

Think about it logically .. with out bias ..

Had the Coalition never declared war on Tolkeen .. they never would have fallen in alignement .. they never would have summoned anything to supplement a military that at that point had no armies of demons .. and also at that point had been reletively small in number ..

The Coalition declaring war on them like that was the cause of it all .. And there can be no debating against it in my honest opinion.

Logically speaking as well ..

The Coalition War : Siege on tolkeen a vicious campagin of utter destruction that pts the Coalition against a mush smaller, weaker power that has never overtly challanged the CS or made moves against it.

it is what it is .. and the CS is to blame for it .

[Giant2005]

Colt is right.

A person is only ever responsible for their own actions. That is just common sense.

I'll only half agree with that statement.
As long as there are genuine choices available, people are indeed responsible for their actions but they are by no means the only ones responsible for their actions. If I incite a situation, I too am responsible for the consequences. That is why there are laws like "aiding and abetting" in existence.

[Lenwen]

Akashic,

That makes the Coalitions aggression all the more questionable, its heroic's all the more hollow..

[Akashic Soldier]

I am not being bias. This is a RL issue for me. If someone punches you in the face you do not have the right to break into their home and murder their family.

If someone cuts off your arms and legs you do not have the right to poison their city's water supply.

That is NOT your RIGHT and they are not accountable for your action.

[Lenwen]

I am not being bias. This is a RL issue for me. If someone punches you in the face you do not have the right to break into their home and murder their family.

If someone cuts off your arms and legs you do not have the right to poison their cities water supply.

Who is the power doing the punching here and who is the one breaking into the home ?

You are forgetting which city was under siege .. and which was the one doing the siege .

The Coalition had been harrassing Tolkeen boarders for YEARS .. (Again this blame is squarely set upon the CS)

Then the Coalition declares war (This is squarely set upon the CS as well)

And any actions of self preservation by Tolkeen can be traced back an squarely placed blame wise on the Coalition for their declaring war and invading a power that never did anything to them except to protect its boarders ..

If you can not see that as plainly as it get .. Dunno what else to say here

[Giant2005]

I am not being bias. This is a RL issue for me. If someone punches you in the face you do not have the right to break into their home and murder their family.

If someone cuts off your arms and legs you do not have the right to poison their city's water supply.

That is NOT your RIGHT and they are not accountable for your action.

But do you have the right to punch them in the face back?
BTW I am actually asking your opinion there, legally you have the right but I don't think that seems to matter here.

If you do agree that an equal response like returning a punch in the face is within your rights, what could Tolkeen respond with that would be equal response to the Nuke the CS sent after them?

[Akashic Soldier]

I get it Len I just don't think it is a factor from an ethical standpoint.

Giant, yes I believe you can strike back. Of course I do. I even believe you can fight to the best of your abilities or cheat.

I just don't believe you should release a canister of gas that will eradicate all life on earth or you know... summon an army of elemental evil.

[Lenwen]

I get it Len I just don't think it is a factor from an ethical standpoint.

Giant, yes I believe you can strike back. Of course I do. I even believe you can fight to the best of your abilities or cheat.

I just don't believe you should release a canister of gas that will eradicate all life on earth or you know... summon an army of elemental evil.

But its ok to launch thousands of tactical nukes ...

I am starting to question your reasoning here .. it appear's that your using bias in your reasoning .. Dont summon an army .. but its ok to use Doomsday weaponry enmass ?

Is it because its the Coalition using the doomsday weaponry enmass that its ok they did so ?

And is it because it was tolkeen who summoned more soilder's .. (thats what it was) that you seem to think its such a bad thing ?

[Akashic Soldier]

No.

It's okay because their weapon targeted their enemies.

It's not okay because Tolkeen's weapon was another sapient being that killed (and likely worse) indiscriminantly and killed their allies and their own soldiers.

EDIT: Also the main issue I have in what you're saying is that Tolkeen was justified. It was not. They were meddling with Demonic Forces knowing well the dangers. Even if the CS killed every man and woman bar one that last standing soldier would not be justified strangling the life out of a Coalition infant anymore than he had a right to strangle a n infant from Free Quebec. If someone hurts you that isn't justification to hurt third parties.

[Lenwen]

No.

It's okay because their weapon targeted their enemies.

It's not okay because Tolkeen's weapon was another sapient being that killed (and likely worse) indiscriminantly and killed their allies and their own soldiers.

So weapons who killed civilian's .. are ok .. but soilder's who do the same are not ?

This is exactly what I am getting from your post here my friend, or am I wrong some how ?

Again .. it is looking like your using bias to choose which was worse .. when in fact .. logically speaking we know already from the onset .. which is to blame .. an which is thee worse .. due to it.

[Nightmask]

I am not being bias. This is a RL issue for me. If someone punches you in the face you do not have the right to break into their home and murder their family.

If someone cuts off your arms and legs you do not have the right to poison their city's water supply.

That is NOT your RIGHT and they are not accountable for your action.

Unfortunately your analogy fails, because it isn't someone coming in and punching you in the face and you react with disproportionate retribution by murdering their family. It's someone who starts massacring your family and trying to kill off everyone you know and destroy everything you hold dear just because you exist and they don't approve of it, so you're left to respond by fighting back to defend all that you hold dear.

While the choice of evil deeds by the people of Tolkeen was theirs you have to take into account they were fighting a foe that but for being genetically human were no less evil and ruthless than any demon might be. It's certainly a debatable issue whether or not calling up demons to use to fight back is as evil, but it's certainly not more evil than the people who believe you're only good as a corpse who're doing everything they can to kill everyone that isn't part of their group.

[Akashic Soldier]

Read my edit.

And yes. In War civilians of both sides die. It sucks but it happens. Tolkeen had been consumed by darkness. It had become evil. That is a choice. Just like fighting when everyone told them to just walk away. They weighed their options and they chose to put all Creation at risk if that meant Tolkeen still reigned in Hell.

[Lenwen]

Read my edit.

And yes. In War civilians of both sides die. It sucks but it happens. Tolkeen had been consumed by darkness. It had become evil. That is a choice. Just like fighting when everyone told them to just walk away. They weighed their options and they chose to put all Creation at risk if that meant Tolkeen still reigned in Hell.

O..

So it bad for tolkeen to fall to the same level as the Coalition already is at ?

Thus it makes them appear in your opinion to be the one's who are far more worse then the Coalition who has already been there for some time right ?

Or am I not understanding ?

[Akashic Soldier]

No you are basicly right.

It is better to loose your homes but keep your integrity than to sink to the level of the CS.

In their hearts and minds the CS were fighting for their world but they were still on a mission of genocide. Now what this means is THEIR ORDERS were to kill every man woman and child BUT after they won their soldiers let them run away. This is because their flesh and blood troops were aberrant (at worst) and still had a code of ethics, even if distorted.

By Tolkeen saying "We will win NO MATTER WHAT!!!" that's where they crossed the line and endangered lots of people they never needed too.

[Lenwen]

No you are basicly right.

It is better to loose your homes but keep your integrity than to sink to the level of the CS.

In their hearts and minds the CS were fighting for their world but they were still on a mission of genocide. Now what this means is THEIR ORDERS were to kill every man woman and child BUT after they won their soldiers let them run away. This is because their flesh and blood troops were aberrant (at worst) and still had a code of ethics, even if distorted.

By Tolkeen saying "We will win NO MATTER WHAT!!!" that's where they crossed the line and endangered lots of people they never needed too.

But the fact of the matter is .. those soilder's still implimented it an used it for a time .. before giving it up ..

Thus forcing Tolkeen into an even more evil mindset .. till finally they summoned Demons .. to fight well .. Human demons .. cause lets face it .. The Coalition military (vast majority) and its leadership are as evil as any demon or deevil to ever set foot on Rifts earth ..

Just because they are human's changes not their alignment or grants them any excusable reasoning as to their own actions forcing the actions of another city/nation into doing what must be done for self preservation..

That is my whole reasoning behind me stating that the Coalition is to blame for everything .. when it comes to the atrocities commited on both sides .. had they not declared war .. none of it would have happened so in the very basic of essences .. I am 100% right. Wether people want to admit it or not ..

No war .. no attrocities .. period .

[Akashic Soldier]

Except that people on both sides had already died before war was declared.

Also Len I think your understanding of the true face of evil might be a little misguided.

Demons are evil. They're born evil. Check their stats. Humans are capable of growth, understanding, empathy and change. The CS Military are NOT devils. They are soldiers driven by hate and (a very justified) fear or duty and patrotism.

[Lenwen]

Except that people on both sides had already died before war was declared.

Also Len I think your understanding of the true face of evil might be a little misguided.

Demons are evil. They're born evil. Check their stats. Humans are capable of growth, understanding, empathy and change. The CS Military are NOT devils. They are soldiers driven by hate and (a very justified) fear or duty and patrotism.

If either of us are misguided my friend it is not I .. who think the Coalition's actions were "a very justified" ..

The fact that human's are capable of growth does not grant them automatic justification or sympathy when they choose to fight an force other's into war's ..

The fact is that nearly every single "fear" and "hate" the CS has is self asserted .. and is in fact a self serving prophesy .. example ..

Coalition tells its citizens Tolkeen is attempting to slaughter its people .. (which are actually not CS citizen's but merely members of its military)
The Coalition harrassed Tolkeen boarders for YEARS .. Tolkeen responds by defending its boarders and both sides take casualties ..
The Coalition then states the Tolkeen forces have started an attack on CS holdings .. (which is true, but in fact it was the CS who instigated the attack an Tolkeen merely defended itself thus giving the CS casualties)

There is no justification for the CS doing what it did .. unless you're using a biased way at looking at it ..

[Akashic Soldier]

It's 2:35am so I'll get back to this tomorrow but it seems to me that you're just arguing for the sake of it.

I have answered all these questions in my earlier posts. They don't become invalid or change just because they're not in quotes or on this page the fears of the CS are justified. Tolkeen's military leaders were evil. They're NOT Lazlo. They were a militant state not a peaceful town of wizards. Both sides were accountable but the facts are Tolkeen knew the CS didn't like them and then waved their ass at them and said bring it on we're not scared! Instead of just doing the wise thing and leaving and then when war was declared they pulled out all the stops--out of pride.

Len I DO NOT like the way you are portraying either side of this skirmish. Tolkeen are and we're NOT the peace loving hippy Lazlo.

Goodnight.

[Lenwen]

It's 2:35am so I'll get back to this tomorrow but it seems to me that you're just arguing for the sake of it.

I have answered all these questions in my earlier posts. They don't become invalid or change just because they're not in quotes or on this page the fears of the CS are justified. Tolkeen's military leaders were evil. They're NOT Lazlo. They were a militant state not a peaceful town of wizards. Both sides were accountable but the facts are Instead of just doing the wise thing and leaving and then when war was declared thTolkeen knew the CS didn't like them and then waved their ass at them and said bring it on we're not scared!ey pulled out all the stops--out of pride.

Len I DO NOT like the way you are portraying either side of this skirmish. Tolkeen are and we're NOT the peace loving hippy Lazlo.

Goodnight.

Tolkeen was not a militent sociaty .. as per your claim .. they were a Kingdom .. with a very small military up and till the actual war was declared.

The fact that they stood up to defend their homes .. from an invading force is not an act of evil .. no matter how badly you wish it to be .. And canonly speaking Tolkeen never did anything to the Coalition to logically force a war from them ..

I do not intend my responces to be problematic for you or instigating by any means. But I am trying to prove a point. so please take no offense from my words as I've only ever tried to prove a point in this.

Point being .. No war .. no attrocities .. on either side .. which just falls squarely upon the shoulder's of the Coalition..

[Vrykolas2k]

Except that people on both sides had already died before war was declared.

Also Len I think your understanding of the true face of evil might be a little misguided.

Demons are evil. They're born evil. Check their stats. Humans are capable of growth, understanding, empathy and change. The CS Military are NOT devils. They are soldiers driven by hate and (a very justified) fear or duty and patrotism.

What made them afraid of Tolkeen to begin with?
Tolkeen was just sitting there, saying, "This is our bit of the continent; we don't want any more."
The CS was saying, "We want it all. Move or die, then we'll find and kill you later."
That's basically it, in a nutshell.
Also, your very arguement proves the humans to be more evil.
Demons are evil by nature.
Humans are evil by choice.
Personally, it makes me think Tolkeen should have joined the original FoM; maybe there wouldn't be a CS to start conflicts later.
Instead they said, "No, Dunscon that's WRONG."

[Lenwen]

Also, your very arguement proves the humans to be more evil.
Demons are evil by nature.
Humans are evil by choice.

This brings up a VERY powerful thought ..

Human's are indeed worse then the demons in this logic .. being evil by choice an not by nature is even more evil .. by default .. as its what you WANT .. not what you have forced on you ..

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yeah I'm done here.
It is obvious this isn't going anywhere - someone who considers nuking an innocent civilization less evil than summoning demons to protect yourself can't be debated with in any rational form.

No one said that Giant. I think if you just take a deep breath and reread the content of the thread as opposed to reading what you THINK we're saying you will be pleasantly surprised.

No one is saying that nuking Tolkeen wasn't a move of the utmost d!ickheadery.

But at the same time... opening a gate into hell and marching an apocalyptic army of demonic monsters to destroy the enemy and then to add insult to injury metaphorically shrugging your shoulders when your own demonic army turns on your own allies and troops is not an appropriate response.

Pepsi did

No. He didn't. Care to show me where I said that nuking tolkeen was not a move of ********?

I simply pointed out the fact that using a nuke on you're foe, isn't as evil as summoning an army of Demons to set loose, demons that will even kill your own people if they try and stop their demonic acts.

Don't put words in my mouth.

How about instead of accusing me of putting words in your mouth, you read the conversation...
Even in your response claiming that I am putting words in your mouth, you re-stated the same sentiment.
Here is the quote again if you want to actually do some reading this time:

So? It's war. You bomb cities in war. It's still not as high on the scale of sins as willingly dealing with demonic armies and loosing them on humanity. (( Is nuking a city bad? yeah. Not saying it's not))

and since you posted it again, I'll give you another one:

I simply pointed out the fact that using a nuke on you're foe, isn't as evil as summoning an army of Demons to set loose, demons that will even kill your own people if they try and stop their demonic acts.

I'll finish with some simple advice: if you still feel compelled to claim you didn't say that using Demons is more evil than using Nukes, in the very least don't state the same sentiment again in the post claiming you never said it...

That's because you don't read what YOU WROTE Very well, Giant.

Reread what you wrote.. and what you replied to.

LOOK CLOSE. I know it's hard because you were all laughing and trying to be cute.


Akashic comes in with....

No one is saying that nuking Tolkeen wasn't a move of the utmost d!ickheadery.

And you come in with

Pepsi did

And no.. I didn't......

THAT... The latest quoted statement you falsely attributed to me... is what I replied about.... You notice the part I pointed out in my last post? Go read it again.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Except that people on both sides had already died before war was declared.

Also Len I think your understanding of the true face of evil might be a little misguided.

Demons are evil. They're born evil. Check their stats. Humans are capable of growth, understanding, empathy and change. The CS Military are NOT devils. They are soldiers driven by hate and (a very justified) fear or duty and patrotism.

What made them afraid of Tolkeen to begin with?

I've answered this before but I'll do so again. What made them afraid of tolkeen to begin with? One day, in the golden age of science the world went crazy. There were cascading earthquakes, volcano's exploaded, tidle waves that took out billions of humans along the coast. All around the world. Billions of humans died. Then while we were realing from the worst natrual disaster in the history of the planet... rifts opened up and spilled out monsters and aliens of every kind never dreamed nor invisioned by man. They ripped into the human survivors and slaughtered them by the millions. Humanity lost power. Lost food production, lost almost everything in mintues... Then were be set on by alien and inhuman invaders, some of them supernatural and demonic....

And it went on for 200 years. 8 to 15 generations..... Not just... one. not two or three.. but depending on how long you see a generation.... 8 to 15 generations of humanity were prey of every supernatural, monster, magical thing, alien creature on our own planet.
You.
Your kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...

For their entire lives

Were all hunted by these horrors while the few humans that survived tried to regroup and just get the power back on and cleann water.

After 200 years.. finally humanity had grouped back up enough to start clawing their way out... then there was another 110 years to gget to where the CS is "today". Fighting for every milimeter they gained. Defening against these unending horrors that might just eat your face. A mean a little fairy is mdc. They can take more damage than a modern battle tank...

310 years (( Roughly, the 'dark ages' aren't really an exact science)). but 310 years of fighting every sort of alien supernatural monster that had never been even conceived that want to destroy humanity and eat or inslave your race, that invaded your planet.

That...... is why the CS fears DBees and the Supernatral, thus.. Tolkeen.

Tolkeen was just sitting there, saying, "This is our bit of the continent; we don't want any more."

But they weren't. They'd shifted from a peaceful magical kingdom to a militant one, years prior to the war. The books point out that Tolkeen had been gearing up for it for -Years- if not decades. They'd shifted from good to evil. They gathered evil warlords to be their generals. They found armies of demons and brokered deals with them. They built 100s if not 1000s of machines of war. They wern't just hanging out chillin'.

The CS was saying, "We want it all. Move or die, then we'll find and kill you later."

Kinda.. it was more "This is our planet.. for the last 300 years you've kicked us around..but now we've pulled up our big girl panties and we're taking our planet back. Leave or die"

It's a subtle difference, but it is there.

That's basically it, in a nutshell.
Also, your very arguement proves the humans to be more evil.
Demons are evil by nature.
Humans are evil by choice.

And this is where people derail. Tolkeen -----chose---- amidst other options, to ---willingly--- seek out, find, and broker deals with armies of Demons, that are evil by nature.
That was a choice they made. Their evil generals and warlords made that choice. To willingly be 'That guy' and thus, evil.

No one (( that I've seen)) has said the CS weren't bad too. I don't think anyone's said it. But people are painting tolkeen as the poor put upon sorts, and they're not. When the war started they'd already spiraled down further than the CS ever had.

BOTH sides were bad and both were wrong, both committed atrocity's in war. But ONE side whipped out supernatural demonic armies that would even eat their own champions if someone said something to them.

Personally, it makes me think Tolkeen should have joined the original FoM; maybe there wouldn't be a CS to start conflicts later.
Instead they said, "No, Dunscon that's WRONG."

Well the Fed purposefully left Tolkeen out to die, because in the past Tolkeen did the same to them. "Revenge is a dish best served cold."

[Lenwen]

Except that people on both sides had already died before war was declared.

Also Len I think your understanding of the true face of evil might be a little misguided.

Demons are evil. They're born evil. Check their stats. Humans are capable of growth, understanding, empathy and change. The CS Military are NOT devils. They are soldiers driven by hate and (a very justified) fear or duty and patrotism.

What made them afraid of Tolkeen to begin with?

I've answered this before but I'll do so again. What made them afraid of tolkeen to begin with? One day, in the golden age of science the world went crazy. There were cascading earthquakes, volcano's exploaded, tidle waves that took out billions of humans along the coast. All around the world. Billions of humans died. Then while we were realing from the worst natrual disaster in the history of the planet... rifts opened up and spilled out monsters and aliens of every kind never dreamed nor invisioned by man. They ripped into the human survivors and slaughtered them by the millions. Humanity lost power. Lost food production, lost almost everything in mintues... Then were be set on by alien and inhuman invaders, some of them supernatural and demonic....

And it went on for 200 years. 8 to 15 generations..... Not just... one. not two or three.. but depending on how long you see a generation.... 8 to 15 generations of humanity were prey of every supernatural, monster, magical thing, alien creature on our own planet.
You.
Your kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...

For their entire lives

Were all hunted by these horrors while the few humans that survived tried to regroup and just get the power back on and cleann water.

After 200 years.. finally humanity had grouped back up enough to start clawing their way out... then there was another 110 years to gget to where the CS is "today". Fighting for every milimeter they gained. Defening against these unending horrors that might just eat your face. A mean a little fairy is mdc. They can take more damage than a modern battle tank...

310 years (( Roughly, the 'dark ages' aren't really an exact science)). but 310 years of fighting every sort of alien supernatural monster that had never been even conceived that want to destroy humanity and eat or inslave your race, that invaded your planet.

1) - The CS has not been fighting a war or survival as per your above implication for 310 yrs ..

2) - The CS has become the monster they had originally feared themselves .. a power that seeks to destroy for the sake of doing so ..

3) - The CS has not fought for every single milimeter they gained ..

4) - Those mostrocities also hunted slaughtered an killed an ate DBee's babies right along with human babies .. an human civilization ..

Tolkeen was just sitting there, saying, "This is our bit of the continent; we don't want any more."

But they weren't. They'd shifted from a peaceful magical kingdom to a militant one, years prior to the war. The books point out that Tolkeen had been gearing up for it for -Years- if not decades. They'd shifted from good to evil. They gathered evil warlords to be their generals. They found armies of demons and brokered deals with them. They built 100s if not 1000s of machines of war. They wern't just hanging out chillin'.

1) - They were not a militant Kingdom as per your claim or perhaps you could provide a cited source for such a claim ?

2) - They did not shift from good to evil till after the war had already been under way ..

3) - Their Warlords were evil tho they did not pick those warlords due to them being evil as per you implying here, They chose them due to their actions an the warlords were able to hide their evil long enough to become generals or be put into place of leadership .. as opposed to the Coalition who actively seeks to promote Evil leader's by its own merits ..

4) - Self preservation made Tolkeen do what was needed in an attempt to stay alive, Had the Coalition not invaded .. there would be no armies of demons or 1,000's of war machines .. they would have just hung out .. as they were prior to the escalation of hostilities ..

That's basically it, in a nutshell.
Also, your very arguement proves the humans to be more evil.
Demons are evil by nature.
Humans are evil by choice.

And this is where people derail. Tolkeen -----chose---- amidst other options, to ---willingly--- seek out, find, and broker deals with armies of Demons, that are evil by nature.
That was a choice they made. Their evil generals and warlords made that choice. To willingly be 'That guy' and thus, evil.

You mean like Gen Drogue ?

Perhaps like well .. take your pick of any number of leaders up to and including Emp Prosek himself (Diabolic) who are as evil nay more evil then demons themselves due to 1 drastic choice ..

Humans have the choice to be evil or not .. Demons are inherently evil .. knowing no other way .. but Humans.. Humans have a choice which makes their being evil just that much more evil as it is ..

No one (( that I've seen)) has said the CS weren't bad too. I don't think anyone's said it. But people are painting tolkeen as the poor put upon sorts, and they're not. When the war started they'd already spiraled down further than the CS ever had.

Wrong.

Tolkeen did not spiral down as low as the Coalition till --> AFTER<-- the the war was already ongoing, and the second wave came in with its multiple staged genocidal war .. one in which Emp Prosek wanted to watch an see what effect it would have on both sides, means it actually was done for some time before the CS discontinued its whole genocidal war effort.

All you have to do for verification on that is read Siege on Tolkeen book 2 for a total and complete understandment of that.

BOTH sides were bad and both were wrong, both committed atrocity's in war. But ONE side whipped out supernatural demonic armies that would even eat their own champions if someone said something to them.

So tell me which is worse ?

Genocidal war as per what the Coalition did to Tolkeen for a time ..

Or ..

Summoning an Army of demons due to the genocidal war being fought by the Coalition ? (Ergo being forced to do such a thing .. is just as bad as doing it in an of itself ..)

Personally, it makes me think Tolkeen should have joined the original FoM; maybe there wouldn't be a CS to start conflicts later.
Instead they said, "No, Dunscon that's WRONG."

Well the Fed purposefully left Tolkeen out to die, because in the past Tolkeen did the same to them. "Revenge is a dish best served cold."

[/quote]

And there is a passage that stated if the Coalition was going to fall .. it would fall to no one other then Lord Dunscon .. (according to himself) So that should have been forseen even by tolkeen ..

[Lenwen]

And yet again no one has disproven my defacto arguement ..

No War .. No attrocities .. by either party ..

[Vrykolas2k]

Except that people on both sides had already died before war was declared.

Also Len I think your understanding of the true face of evil might be a little misguided.

Demons are evil. They're born evil. Check their stats. Humans are capable of growth, understanding, empathy and change. The CS Military are NOT devils. They are soldiers driven by hate and (a very justified) fear or duty and patrotism.

What made them afraid of Tolkeen to begin with?

I've answered this before but I'll do so again. What made them afraid of tolkeen to begin with? One day, in the golden age of science the world went crazy. There were cascading earthquakes, volcano's exploaded, tidle waves that took out billions of humans along the coast. All around the world. Billions of humans died. Then while we were realing from the worst natrual disaster in the history of the planet... rifts opened up and spilled out monsters and aliens of every kind never dreamed nor invisioned by man. They ripped into the human survivors and slaughtered them by the millions. Humanity lost power. Lost food production, lost almost everything in mintues... Then were be set on by alien and inhuman invaders, some of them supernatural and demonic....

And it went on for 200 years. 8 to 15 generations..... Not just... one. not two or three.. but depending on how long you see a generation.... 8 to 15 generations of humanity were prey of every supernatural, monster, magical thing, alien creature on our own planet.
You.
Your kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...

For their entire lives

Were all hunted by these horrors while the few humans that survived tried to regroup and just get the power back on and cleann water.

After 200 years.. finally humanity had grouped back up enough to start clawing their way out... then there was another 110 years to gget to where the CS is "today". Fighting for every milimeter they gained. Defening against these unending horrors that might just eat your face. A mean a little fairy is mdc. They can take more damage than a modern battle tank...

310 years (( Roughly, the 'dark ages' aren't really an exact science)). but 310 years of fighting every sort of alien supernatural monster that had never been even conceived that want to destroy humanity and eat or inslave your race, that invaded your planet.

That...... is why the CS fears DBees and the Supernatral, thus.. Tolkeen.

Tolkeen was just sitting there, saying, "This is our bit of the continent; we don't want any more."

But they weren't. They'd shifted from a peaceful magical kingdom to a militant one, years prior to the war. The books point out that Tolkeen had been gearing up for it for -Years- if not decades. They'd shifted from good to evil. They gathered evil warlords to be their generals. They found armies of demons and brokered deals with them. They built 100s if not 1000s of machines of war. They wern't just hanging out chillin'.

The CS was saying, "We want it all. Move or die, then we'll find and kill you later."

Kinda.. it was more "This is our planet.. for the last 300 years you've kicked us around..but now we've pulled up our big girl panties and we're taking our planet back. Leave or die"

It's a subtle difference, but it is there.

That's basically it, in a nutshell.
Also, your very arguement proves the humans to be more evil.
Demons are evil by nature.
Humans are evil by choice.

And this is where people derail. Tolkeen -----chose---- amidst other options, to ---willingly--- seek out, find, and broker deals with armies of Demons, that are evil by nature.
That was a choice they made. Their evil generals and warlords made that choice. To willingly be 'That guy' and thus, evil.

No one (( that I've seen)) has said the CS weren't bad too. I don't think anyone's said it. But people are painting tolkeen as the poor put upon sorts, and they're not. When the war started they'd already spiraled down further than the CS ever had.

BOTH sides were bad and both were wrong, both committed atrocity's in war. But ONE side whipped out supernatural demonic armies that would even eat their own champions if someone said something to them.

Personally, it makes me think Tolkeen should have joined the original FoM; maybe there wouldn't be a CS to start conflicts later.
Instead they said, "No, Dunscon that's WRONG."

Well the Fed purposefully left Tolkeen out to die, because in the past Tolkeen did the same to them. "Revenge is a dish best served cold."

You're leaving out the parts where d-bees and some creatures of magic acted to save humans as well...

Yep, Tolkeen went militant because the CS was building up forces to invade. Years before the war...

Except that there's evidence in "myth" that other beings shared the planet as well... so, whose planet is it? Hell, dragons have evidently been on the earth for longer than humans, according to Rifts history.

Like I said, if Tolkeen had joined the original FoM, things might have been different.
They decided the original FoM was wrong.

[Giant2005]

No one is saying that nuking Tolkeen wasn't a move of the utmost d!ickheadery.

And you come in with

Pepsi did

And no.. I didn't......

THAT... The latest quoted statement you falsely attributed to me... is what I replied about.... You notice the part I pointed out in my last post? Go read it again.

Well I understand the confusion now but FYI, I wasn't responding to what you quoted, I was responding to this:

No one said that Giant.

[Lenwen]

The reason the CS declared the invasion was because the people of Tolkeen was simply because they existed.

If nothing else is taken from the thread ..

Take this truth .. from this thread .. as that is the REAL .. reason ..

[Pepsi Jedi]

Except that people on both sides had already died before war was declared.

Also Len I think your understanding of the true face of evil might be a little misguided.

Demons are evil. They're born evil. Check their stats. Humans are capable of growth, understanding, empathy and change. The CS Military are NOT devils. They are soldiers driven by hate and (a very justified) fear or duty and patrotism.

What made them afraid of Tolkeen to begin with?

I've answered this before but I'll do so again. What made them afraid of tolkeen to begin with? One day, in the golden age of science the world went crazy. There were cascading earthquakes, volcano's exploaded, tidle waves that took out billions of humans along the coast. All around the world. Billions of humans died. Then while we were realing from the worst natrual disaster in the history of the planet... rifts opened up and spilled out monsters and aliens of every kind never dreamed nor invisioned by man. They ripped into the human survivors and slaughtered them by the millions. Humanity lost power. Lost food production, lost almost everything in mintues... Then were be set on by alien and inhuman invaders, some of them supernatural and demonic....

And it went on for 200 years. 8 to 15 generations..... Not just... one. not two or three.. but depending on how long you see a generation.... 8 to 15 generations of humanity were prey of every supernatural, monster, magical thing, alien creature on our own planet.
You.
Your kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...

For their entire lives

Were all hunted by these horrors while the few humans that survived tried to regroup and just get the power back on and cleann water.

After 200 years.. finally humanity had grouped back up enough to start clawing their way out... then there was another 110 years to gget to where the CS is "today". Fighting for every milimeter they gained. Defening against these unending horrors that might just eat your face. A mean a little fairy is mdc. They can take more damage than a modern battle tank...

310 years (( Roughly, the 'dark ages' aren't really an exact science)). but 310 years of fighting every sort of alien supernatural monster that had never been even conceived that want to destroy humanity and eat or inslave your race, that invaded your planet.

That...... is why the CS fears DBees and the Supernatral, thus.. Tolkeen.

Tolkeen was just sitting there, saying, "This is our bit of the continent; we don't want any more."

But they weren't. They'd shifted from a peaceful magical kingdom to a militant one, years prior to the war. The books point out that Tolkeen had been gearing up for it for -Years- if not decades. They'd shifted from good to evil. They gathered evil warlords to be their generals. They found armies of demons and brokered deals with them. They built 100s if not 1000s of machines of war. They wern't just hanging out chillin'.

The CS was saying, "We want it all. Move or die, then we'll find and kill you later."

Kinda.. it was more "This is our planet.. for the last 300 years you've kicked us around..but now we've pulled up our big girl panties and we're taking our planet back. Leave or die"

It's a subtle difference, but it is there.

That's basically it, in a nutshell.
Also, your very arguement proves the humans to be more evil.
Demons are evil by nature.
Humans are evil by choice.

And this is where people derail. Tolkeen -----chose---- amidst other options, to ---willingly--- seek out, find, and broker deals with armies of Demons, that are evil by nature.
That was a choice they made. Their evil generals and warlords made that choice. To willingly be 'That guy' and thus, evil.

No one (( that I've seen)) has said the CS weren't bad too. I don't think anyone's said it. But people are painting tolkeen as the poor put upon sorts, and they're not. When the war started they'd already spiraled down further than the CS ever had.

BOTH sides were bad and both were wrong, both committed atrocity's in war. But ONE side whipped out supernatural demonic armies that would even eat their own champions if someone said something to them.

Personally, it makes me think Tolkeen should have joined the original FoM; maybe there wouldn't be a CS to start conflicts later.
Instead they said, "No, Dunscon that's WRONG."

Well the Fed purposefully left Tolkeen out to die, because in the past Tolkeen did the same to them. "Revenge is a dish best served cold."

You're leaving out the parts where d-bees and some creatures of magic acted to save humans as well...

Not on the mass scale of the ones that destroied and harmed did. Did a few scattered acts of good will go on? of course. But it was dwarfed many 1000s if not 100,000s off times by the bad. Nor was there any kind of orginised anything that humanity could point to and go "oh those monsters are good" not for 100s of years. and by then it was ingraned pretty deep.

Yep, Tolkeen went militant because the CS was building up forces to invade. Years before the war...

Yeah, but they DID do it. As pointed out earlier they could have used that time and effort and money to relocate. They chose not to.

Except that there's evidence in "myth" that other beings shared the planet as well... so, whose planet is it? Hell, dragons have evidently been on the earth for longer than humans, according to Rifts history.

Myth is not evidence. That's like me citing something about the easter bunny. The 'fact' was for thousands and thousands of years, the Earth was 100% the humans. And none of the creatures that have rifted in have any proof of it being theirs previously.

At best, they might have accidentally rifted into/onto our planet in the past in scattered fewer numbers.

Like I said, if Tolkeen had joined the original FoM, things might have been different.
They decided the original FoM was wrong.

Well. They were.
Just as Tolkeen was when they went evil and embraced the evil mindset and idology and the "ends justify the means" thing.
Just as the CS is wrong to want to push out, or kill all Dbees or supernaturals.



It's just ironic that the CS mindset, which is usually -wrong-, happened to be right for once... in this big huge battle.

[Pepsi Jedi]

And yet again no one has disproven my defacto arguement ..

No War .. No attrocities .. by either party ..

No invasion of Earth by DBees and Supernaturals, No War, No Attrocities by either party.

See what I did there?

[Lenwen]

And yet again no one has disproven my defacto arguement ..

No War .. No attrocities .. by either party ..

No invasion of Earth by DBees and Supernaturals, No War, No Attrocities by either party.

See what I did there?

The problem with what you just stated .. is with out such there is no Rifts earth ..

And the logic behind mine is that even tho the setting is in place .. The coalition did not have to declare war .. and force the attrocities both commited ..

I stayed in tune with the line .. and still kept both away ..

You had to literally get rid of the entire line .. to say well .. nothing lol.

If your only defense to my no war no attrocities .. is to get rid of the entire line of books .. you already lost hehe

[Pepsi Jedi]

(( EDIT FOR HTML FORMATTING, NOT FOR SUBSTANCE))

Except that people on both sides had already died before war was declared.

Also Len I think your understanding of the true face of evil might be a little misguided.

Demons are evil. They're born evil. Check their stats. Humans are capable of growth, understanding, empathy and change. The CS Military are NOT devils. They are soldiers driven by hate and (a very justified) fear or duty and patrotism.

What made them afraid of Tolkeen to begin with?

I've answered this before but I'll do so again. What made them afraid of tolkeen to begin with? One day, in the golden age of science the world went crazy. There were cascading earthquakes, volcano's exploaded, tidle waves that took out billions of humans along the coast. All around the world. Billions of humans died. Then while we were realing from the worst natrual disaster in the history of the planet... rifts opened up and spilled out monsters and aliens of every kind never dreamed nor invisioned by man. They ripped into the human survivors and slaughtered them by the millions. Humanity lost power. Lost food production, lost almost everything in mintues... Then were be set on by alien and inhuman invaders, some of them supernatural and demonic....

And it went on for 200 years. 8 to 15 generations..... Not just... one. not two or three.. but depending on how long you see a generation.... 8 to 15 generations of humanity were prey of every supernatural, monster, magical thing, alien creature on our own planet.
You.
Your kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...
Their kids...

For their entire lives

Were all hunted by these horrors while the few humans that survived tried to regroup and just get the power back on and cleann water.

After 200 years.. finally humanity had grouped back up enough to start clawing their way out... then there was another 110 years to gget to where the CS is "today". Fighting for every milimeter they gained. Defening against these unending horrors that might just eat your face. A mean a little fairy is mdc. They can take more damage than a modern battle tank...

310 years (( Roughly, the 'dark ages' aren't really an exact science)). but 310 years of fighting every sort of alien supernatural monster that had never been even conceived that want to destroy humanity and eat or inslave your race, that invaded your planet.

1) - The CS has not been fighting a war or survival as per your above implication for 310 yrs ..

Humanity has. The humans of North America have. The humans who's descendants formed the CS have. 200or so (It's an estimate, they had other things to do vs keep exact calenders)) of dark ages, then 109 years of the PA calendar.

2) - The CS has become the monster they had originally feared themselves .. a power that seeks to destroy for the sake of doing so ..

False, they destroy for a specific purpose. To retake America (and earth) For the Humans. They do conduct some very evil actions in pursuit of that goal. I've -never- said they didn't.

3) - The CS has not fought for every single milimeter they gained ..

Yeah they have. Every one. After the Dark ages the humans clawed their way back up and grouped up and started to retake the land. If you are being overly literal and mean "ok they got that milometer there in southern Illinois with out fighting for it.. you're right. If you're speaking figerativly, as I was at the pont. Every bit of land they -----RE------Took. They fought hard for.

4) - Those mostrocities also hunted slaughtered an killed an ate DBee's babies right along with human babies .. an human civilization ..

That's great for them, but the CS was too busy trying to keep humanity from being extinct to keep tabs on the monsters eating one another.

You're not wrong with that statement, but it's largely irrelevant to the CS/Human survival

Tolkeen was just sitting there, saying, "This is our bit of the continent; we don't want any more."

But they weren't. They'd shifted from a peaceful magical kingdom to a militant one, years prior to the war. The books point out that Tolkeen had been gearing up for it for -Years- if not decades. They'd shifted from good to evil. They gathered evil warlords to be their generals. They found armies of demons and brokered deals with them. They built 100s if not 1000s of machines of war. They wern't just hanging out chillin'.

1) - They were not a militant Kingdom as per your claim or perhaps you could provide a cited source for such a claim ?

You posted it...... lol You cited that Tolkeen had been conducting military build up for years. As welll as that we have a series of books that shows their military might and all the new weapons and golems and stuff they constructed for it.

2) - They did not shift from good to evil till after the war had already been under way ..

False again. The generals of the armies are evil. And before the war was underway, Erin Tarn visited and tried to AGAIN urge them to relocate. she was thrown out and comments on the insanity and evil that the kingdom is engaged in.

Also we're back to them having delt with the demonic armies previous to the war. They met with and recruited the aid of the Demonic armies, earily enough for them to develop technowizard gear for them and outfit the demon army with it. Not something they can do while fighting a war already. So, again. Dealing with demonic armies and empowering them, is evil.

3) - Their Warlords were evil tho they did not pick those warlords due to them being evil as per you implying here, They chose them due to their actions an the warlords were able to hide their evil long enough to become generals or be put into place of leadership .. as opposed to the Coalition who actively seeks to promote Evil leader's by its own merits ..

Ok. A) I didn't say they picked the warlords DUE to them being evil. I said they chose warlords, who WERE Evil. Not 'because of" but "Defined by".

As for the CS, They don't activly seek to promote evil. Look at Lonestar's general. she's not evil. Look at what's his face.. the one that leadd the group through the hive lands. he's not evil.

4) - Self preservation made Tolkeen do what was needed in an attempt to stay alive,

Self preservation gave tolkeen some hard choices to try and stay alive. Very hard choices. Three of them really. "Relocate your city.. which ain't gonna be easy"... "Fight and die with honor." or "Jump feet first into evil, and make pacts with demonic armies and arm them even BETTER than they were and let them loose on the planet/area you're defending, to try and win"

They ----- chose----- the evil choice. That's on them.

Had the Coalition not invaded

Had the Debees and Supernaturals and Demons not invaded first, the CS wouldn't have had to Counter-invade.

there would be no armies of demons or 1,000's of war machines .. they would have just hung out .. as they were prior to the escalation of hostilities

Perhaps. But again you're failing to look at it in an adult way. the CS is responsible for their own actions. Tolkeen is responsible for their Response. Not the CS. Tolkeen had choices it could have made. It Chose evil. That's on them. they could have chosen good instead, but they didn't. The CS action did not dictate ------only one possible response-----.

And there is a major flaw in your arguments. You refuse to accept anything but the evil reaction as the ONLY reaction open and as a foregone conclusion. When it's not.

That's basically it, in a nutshell.
Also, your very arguement proves the humans to be more evil.
Demons are evil by nature.
Humans are evil by choice.

And this is where people derail. Tolkeen -----chose---- amidst other options, to ---willingly--- seek out, find, and broker deals with armies of Demons, that are evil by nature.
That was a choice they made. Their evil generals and warlords made that choice. To willingly be 'That guy' and thus, evil.

You mean like Gen Drogue ?

YES!!! EXACTLY LIKE GENERAL DROGUE!!! Exactly like that!!!!!!

Perhaps like well .. take your pick of any number of leaders up to and including Emp Prosek himself (Diabolic)

YES!!!! EXACTLY LIKE THOSE EVIL GUYS!!! lol You're finally getting it!!!!

who are as evil nay more evil then demons themselves due to 1 drastic choice ..

Eeeeeh... I'm not going to lump them as more evil than demons. the CS is evil towards DBees and supernaturals and dmeons.

Demons are evil to everyone and everything.

Humans have the choice to be evil or not .. Demons are inherently evil .. knowing no other way .. but Humans.. Humans have a choice which makes their being evil just that much more evil as it is ..

Again. eeeeeh... i see what you're saying... but...... How evil is evil gets really sticky and is a bit beyond full expression and definition in the medium we're describing.

I see what you're saying... but for me. I see beings born of pure evil more evil than humans.. Whom may be redeemed. Demons can't be.

No one (( that I've seen)) has said the CS weren't bad too. I don't think anyone's said it. But people are painting tolkeen as the poor put upon sorts, and they're not. When the war started they'd already spiraled down further than the CS ever had.

Wrong.

No. Right. When the war started tolkeen had evil generals and had made deals with armies of demons. That's worse than the CS has ever done. tthe CS has never made deals with demon armies.

Tolkeen did not spiral down as low as the Coalition till --> AFTER<-- the the war was already ongoing, and the second wave came in with its multiple staged genocidal war .. one in which Emp Prosek wanted to watch an see what effect it would have on both sides, means it actually was done for some time before the CS discontinued its whole genocidal war effort.

I understand that's what you think.. but riddle me this.

During the war, with the CS mobilized against them. It's your contention that Tolkeen had large numbers of people out... that
A) Found a hitherbefore unknown race of demons.
B) Befriended them enough so that instead of just eating them, they'd listen to words
C) Made an offer and negotiated it to the point where the demons would leave their home dimension, travel to an alien dimension, and join a war... they frankly had no stake in.
D) Transported the ARMIES of Demons onto rifts earth. (( and if they had this ability, moving tolkeen should have been a snap...))
E) Then once on Rifts earth, had armies of Technowizards on staff... that would 1) Work with demons 2) DID work with the demons. 3) Design brand new technowizard gear for the demons. 4) manufactured these giant (( they're giants after all)) Technowizard weapons and things for the demons, to that giant size... and 5) outfitted the demonic armies....
F) Then fielded the now outfitted Demonic armies in postions they needed to be, to conduct the Sorcerers revenge.

It's your honest thought that they did all those things... in days..... in the middle of the war... .and had not done so previously in the years leading up to the war where they were building up their military might.. (( THAT YOU QUOTED~!! lol ))

Really? Does that look realistic (( Yes, in setting)) to you? That they could do all that while fighting the CS in a war? And have the arms and materials just laying around, just in case they found armies of exotic hither-before unknown demons, and the people to do all that, in days, in the middle of the war?

Come on man. You're not an idiot.. Your arguments (( while I often find them wrong)) are not the words of a mentally deficient person. You gotta see that didn't happen.

All you have to do for verification on that is read Siege on Tolkeen book 2 for a total and complete understandment of that.

BOTH sides were bad and both were wrong, both committed atrocity's in war. But ONE side whipped out supernatural demonic armies that would even eat their own champions if someone said something to them.

So tell me which is worse ?

Armies of Demons are worse.

Genocidal war as per what the Coalition did to Tolkeen for a time ..

Or ..

Summoning an Army of demons due to the genocidal war being fought by the Coalition ? (Ergo being forced to do such a thing .. is just as bad as doing it in an of itself ..)

They weren't forced. They chose. As stated dozens of times now. They had other options open to them.

And yes. Armies of Demons is worse. What do you define the war that Tolkeen conducted against the CS? Harsh Language? hell the demons were killing and eating Cyberknights fighting FOR tolkeen. lol

Personally, it makes me think Tolkeen should have joined the original FoM; maybe there wouldn't be a CS to start conflicts later.
Instead they said, "No, Dunscon that's WRONG."

Well the Fed purposefully left Tolkeen out to die, because in the past Tolkeen did the same to them. "Revenge is a dish best served cold."

And there is a passage that stated if the Coalition was going to fall .. it would fall to no one other then Lord Dunscon .. (according to himself) So that should have been forseen even by tolkeen ..[/quote]

Kay? Cool.

[Pepsi Jedi]

And yet again no one has disproven my defacto arguement ..

No War .. No attrocities .. by either party ..

No invasion of Earth by DBees and Supernaturals, No War, No Attrocities by either party.

See what I did there?

The problem with what you just stated .. is with out such there is no Rifts earth ..

I'm sure the humans would very much prefer it that way.

And the logic behind mine is that even tho the setting is in place .. The coalition did not have to declare war .. and force the attrocities both commited ..

Have to? no. Nor did they have to commit the atrocities that they committed.

Tolkeens atrocities are all on their own shoulders though. They're big boys and girls with big boy and girl panties. Their choices are their own.

I stayed in tune with the line .. and still kept both away ..

You had to literally get rid of the entire line .. to say well .. nothing lol.

If your only defense to my no war no attrocities .. is to get rid of the entire line of books .. you already lost hehe

No. It was pointing out the simple-mindedness of the statement and that if you're going to be flip and simplistic, it's easier to go back one more step and come out on top. There's no restrictions as to doing so. No rules for it.

If the CS had never gone to war, sure the war wouldn't have happened. No joke.

if the Rifts never came and deposited the invaders on our planet... the CS wouldn't be there to go to war..... and it wouldn't have happened.

You can go back further and say "If apes hadn't evolved into humans, then there'd be no war with the CS" and it still be true.

[Lenwen]

Had the Coalition not invaded

Had the Debees and Supernaturals and Demons not invaded first, the CS wouldn't have had to Counter-invade.

You logic here falls apart due to your own logic ..

You claim that the CS soilder's are not all evil yet they had a choice to pull the trigger or not .. invade Tolkeen's soverign lands or not ..

Tolkeen had every right to be there as humans ..

If you wanna talk about the original owner's of the earth .. being humans .. then how do you explain the fact that dragons predate humans on earth ?

Does that not mean then that human's are invading dragon's earth ?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Had the Coalition not invaded

Had the Debees and Supernaturals and Demons not invaded first, the CS wouldn't have had to Counter-invade.

You logic here falls apart due to your own logic ..

You claim that the CS soilder's are not all evil yet they had a choice to pull the trigger or not .. invade Tolkeen's soverign lands or not ..

Tolkeen had every right to be there as humans ..

Nope. Human's planet. Not theirs. They invaded Earth, then got bent when Humans tried to kick um out.

If you wanna talk about the original owner's of the earth .. being humans .. then how do you explain the fact that dragons predate humans on earth ?

Mmmmmmmmmmm That they didn't.

Does that not mean then that human's are invading dragon's earth ?

Again.There's no proof that dragon's predate humans as the lifeforms that evolved here on this planet.

At best there's some MYTHOLOGICAL references. Of which can easily be explained by a few Dragons rifting into earth in the past then dieing/leaving. There's nothing supporting Dragon evolution on Earth. (( To my knowledge anyway))

[Lenwen]

Had the Coalition not invaded

Had the Debees and Supernaturals and Demons not invaded first, the CS wouldn't have had to Counter-invade.

You logic here falls apart due to your own logic ..

You claim that the CS soilder's are not all evil yet they had a choice to pull the trigger or not .. invade Tolkeen's soverign lands or not ..

Tolkeen had every right to be there as humans ..

Nope. Human's planet. Not theirs. They invaded Earth, then got bent when Humans tried to kick um out.

If no one is there to hold claim to it .. its not invading ..

If you wanna talk about the original owner's of the earth .. being humans .. then how do you explain the fact that dragons predate humans on earth ?

Mmmmmmmmmmm That they didn't.

You retconned the Chaing-Ku Dragon species now ?

Does that not mean then that human's are invading dragon's earth ?

Again.There's no proof that dragon's predate humans as the lifeforms that evolved here on this planet.

At best there's some MYTHOLOGICAL references. Of which can easily be explained by a few Dragons rifting into earth in the past then dieing/leaving. There's nothing supporting Dragon evolution on Earth. (( To my knowledge anyway))

Does not matter if they evolved here or not . they predate human's as its primary sentient race .. which means it originally belongs to them .. not humans ..

[Akashic Soldier]

Had the Coalition not invaded

Had the Debees and Supernaturals and Demons not invaded first, the CS wouldn't have had to Counter-invade.

You logic here falls apart due to your own logic ..

You claim that the CS soilder's are not all evil yet they had a choice to pull the trigger or not .. invade Tolkeen's soverign lands or not ..

Tolkeen had every right to be there as humans ..

If you wanna talk about the original owner's of the earth .. being humans .. then how do you explain the fact that dragons predate humans on earth ?

Does that not mean then that human's are invading dragon's earth ?

No Len, everyone else's logic isn't flawed in this case your logic is flawed. The fact you are even asking these questions is more a matter of trying to gather points to debate than actually considering the situation as it unfolded.

You claim that the CS soilder's are not all evil yet they had a choice to pull the trigger or not .. invade Tolkeen's soverign lands or not ..

Yes. Invading and slaughtering Tolkeen was wrong but they were a city built around the idea of grabbing as much power as you can. That was their culture. New York is famous for being cynical. Tolkeen was famous for Magic-Users who would do whatever to get their hands on magical secrets. That's Tolkeen as its presented in everything I've read. You want to recover lost magic items? move to Tolkeen! You sick of all the hippies in Lazlo and the Federation of Magic? Move to Tolkeen! You sick of the CS strutting around like they own the place? Move to Tolkeen!

Tolkeen had every right to be there as humans

Unfortunately we will never know what would happen if all the regular human folk of Tolkeen packed up and went to the Coalition States as asylum seekers when war was first declared. But I suspect they would have taken them in (for intelligence purposes if nothing else) and if they did.. who knows.. maybe after they'd exterminated the enemy they might have even been able to move home. The issue the Coalition had with Tolkeen was their practices and culture. In their eyes[/i] they were a dangerous subversive culture that had already brainwashed and subjugated the humans who lived there (again, [b]in their point of view).

If you wanna talk about the original owner's of the earth .. being humans .. then how do you explain the fact that dragons predate humans on earth ?

I find it very interesting! Unfortunately trying to convince a Coalition Politician this was true would be even harder than convincing you that every man. woman or child to ever put on a black uniform doesn't automatically become diabolic and irredeemable. You are trying to drag this back to this ugly middle ground between game ethics and real life ethics but that is not how it works. You either talk "Setting ethics" or "world ethics" you don't try to blend them together--or more specifically you shouldn't.

If you can't understand WHY the city of magicians who were allies with dragons and dimensional beings who were developing rifts-based weapons technology, practicing magic openly and not backing down from the CS's posturing might intimidating and seen as instigating by the Coalition States than you're just being unreasonable and looking at the situation with tunnel vision and from one side (which isn't even one of the two sides presented in the books mind you Len).

When I first read about this on the board I thought that the Siege on Tolkeen was a series about the Coalition fighting the Magic-Users of Rifts Earth but now that I've actually read through it I realize that is not what the series is about. Its series about the Coalition fighting against THOSE Magic-Users. Most of your arguments would be completely valid if the Coalition rocked into Lazlo, took aim, and then opened fire... the same if they launched such a full-scale attack against the Federation of Magic (though I might need to read more about that organization to say that confidently) then a lot of your arguments would be valid and stand up. That isn't what happened.

Tolkeen were NOT an innocent city sitting there twiddling their thumbs and having tea with magic pixies. Tolkeen was grabbing power (which is what their whole culture is based around so why not grab political power too?) they were building their forces. Who knows given another five or ten years what is to say Tolkeen wouldn't have finished building their war machine (Lord of the Rings style) and then marched on the Coalition. If we believe that the same men were in charge of their military at that time then it seems completely within their character to instigate such an attack.

And if we're going to toss around hypotheticals then who would be fault? Still the Coalition because they believe in things that make you feel uncomfortable?

There are no simple black and whites here except one.

The men sitting on top of BOTH armies have had their hearts corrupted by darkness. The Coalition tainted by fear and hate and Tolkeen by greed and selfishness.

I once knew a good man. As a boy he was without fear and had the courage and sensibilities of a saint. He lived for others for as long as I'd known him and starved so my belly might be full. When he became a man he gave up his flesh for us and turned his body to steel so he could fight for those who could not fight for themselves. His courage pulled me from my small thinking, gave me hope, and inspired me to follow in his footsteps and join the Cyber Knights. I worked hard and like my champion, my hero, my love... I made many sacrifices so I might be able to stand with him against the mad ambitions of the Coalition States. Many of Coalition Soldiers still see us as heroes and many of us hope that our presence alone may be enough to stay their weapons.

I realize now, that was naive.

My Champion had no time for such debate and on hearing the horrors and atrocities had taken it upon himself to pledge his alliances to the city of Tolkeen and join their war effort. When at last I found the courage to join him and took up arms by his side no words were spoken but he shared with me a smile that spoke volumes. Over the weeks that followed we slew many Deadboys. Then everything changed... at first we thought they were theirs... great hulking beasts that stank like sulfur and dry blood. but then they joined us and turned the tide. They slaughtered the Coalition Deadboys nearly to man and then took to dismembering and devouring their wounded. My Champion, my love... he orders the demons still and drew their black eyes upon him. His fearlessness seemed to embitter the lumbering monsters and their noses twitched as their empty black eyes stared at him as if somehow they could smell his virtue. I will never forget what happened next for it was the last time I saw my beloved... and the last time I ever saw the world through my own eyes.

Removing her dark glasses those listening to her tale can see her eyes are now bionic and great scars streak down from her sockets.

Many good people died during The War of Tolkeen, some for honour, some to protect their homes... but many more because carelessness and pride.

Sure, its not cannon but with a little editing it easily could be... many good aligned Cyberknights who were there for the wrong reasons fighting for what they thought were the right reasons died because Tolkeen wanted to win at any cost and only a fool would believe that no one or thing was sacrificed in summoning those demons.

[Lenwen]

Tolkeen were NOT an innocent city sitting there twiddling their thumbs and having tea with magic pixies.

Now you are just straight up going right up against canon .. in your game perhaps they were not .. but canonly speaking yes they were innocent . As evidenced by this canon refrence ..

Coalition War: on Tolkeen, a vicious campaign of utter destruction that pits the Coalition against a much smaller, weaker power that has never overtley challanged the CS or made moves against it.

now your argueing .. an stating things you clearly are not reading and keeping to canon.

Yes Tolkeen went and seen the signs the CS were tossing around of a possible invasion .. No nation in exsistance .. would watch such signs an think ok were safe .. we do not need to gear up .. we do not need to train a military ..

You guys trying to imply that Tolkeen went into a Militant state ... I simply ask for you to cite a canon sourced refrence please ?

[Akashic Soldier]

If I/we give you canonical sources will you drop it?

Because I (and I'm not saying this to be mean) have a lot to do today and if I waste my time going through the various setting books and getting you page numbers and quotes I don't want it to be for nothing.

[Giant2005]

Here's a question for you: if KS knew the ****storm that was gonna result on his forums in regards to the SoT series, would he still have made it the exact same way?

Absolutely.
The Minion Wars still have decisive conclusions so it hasn't changed his opinion on that subject - he still won't leave things open-ended for the GMs to figure out.
Aside from that, he would still have the back and forth style of the war to sell books and he would still have the same conclusion. There really isn't any other way he could do it without leaving it open-ended.

[Vrykolas2k]

And yet again no one has disproven my defacto arguement ..

No War .. No attrocities .. by either party ..

No invasion of Earth by DBees and Supernaturals, No War, No Attrocities by either party.

See what I did there?

You're also ignoring the simple fact that the CS killed and raped humans during the invasion. Women, children, their little dogs too...
The CS invaded a kingdom.
The people there, human or d-bee, had as much right to be there as anyone; after all, they've lived on earth for generations.

[Akashic Soldier]

[sarcasm]That's right the Deadboys got out of their powered armor and raped Tolkeen women.

I loved the chapter on that.

They're totally on that level.[/sarcasm]

Seriously, using rape as a psychological weapon is not, nor has it ever been, mentioned (in anything I've EVER read) a strategy used by the Coalition Military. I'd be willing to bet that most soldier's would react the same way "skin heads" react to the idea of having sex with Jewish women. (IE: in disgust). Rape just isn't practical. I'm not saying someone wasn't raped, just saying that they are no more inclined towards raping than Tolkeen soldiers. If anything its less likely.

[Colt47]

The Coalition is at fault for starting the aggression. They are NOT responsible for the actions that Tolkien engaged in following the start. A person is only responsible for their own actions, not the actions that the other person takes in response.

In civility yes. This is a truth..

But in a war time scenario .. it is a logic of folly ..

The side that started the war .. is at fault .

Yes, they are at fault for starting the war. Now explain in a careful, logical way, why this makes them responsible for the methods of self defense used by Tolkeen.

[Ravenwing]

You know what I find funny about this whole thread?

It matches, almost exactly the thoughts and mentality of both sides in Aftermath.

CS perspective: They Committed atrocities, they stood on the edge of the black where they nearly threw their humanity into the abyss, but stopped themselves. The CS learned how far it would go to win, realized the evil it could do, and was horrified by what they were capable of. Instead of descending further into madness, and evil, the CS stepped back, and picked up their humanity, and is determined to never lose itself again.

Tolkeen: They committed atrocities, they stood on the edge of the black where they threw their humanity away. Instead of taking responsibilities for their actions, they reject it. Instead of growth, Tolkeenites have refused to see their own wrong doing, laying all the blame at the feet of the Coalition, while lamenting their innocence. Instead of growth, they shrink from the truth.

When fighting monsters, be careful not to become one.

The CS learned this lesson.
Tolkeen did not.

And that's gotta be the funniest part to me.

[Dustin Fireblade]

You know what I find funny about this whole thread?

It matches, almost exactly the thoughts and mentality of both sides in Aftermath.

CS perspective: They Committed atrocities, they stood on the edge of the black where they nearly threw their humanity into the abyss, but stopped themselves. The CS learned how far it would go to win, realized the evil it could do, and was horrified by what they were capable of. Instead of descending further into madness, and evil, the CS stepped back, and picked up their humanity, and is determined to never lose itself again.

Tolkeen: They committed atrocities, they stood on the edge of the black where they threw their humanity away. Instead of taking responsibilities for their actions, they reject it. Instead of growth, Tolkeenites have refused to see their own wrong doing, laying all the blame at the feet of the Coalition, while lamenting their innocence. Instead of growth, they shrink from the truth.

When fighting monsters, be careful not to become one.

The CS learned this lesson.
Tolkeen did not.

And that's gotta be the funniest part to me.

That's probably the smartest thing in this whole thread since the original post.

[Akashic Soldier]

That's probably the smartest thing in this whole thread since the original post.

Agreed.

[Lenwen]

That's probably the smartest thing in this whole thread since the original post.

Agreed.

I'd rate it second ..

As the post by Winterhawk is pure flat out far and away .. thee single most unbiased post on this entire thread .. Just because its not shining the Coalition in the light some people on this thread wish it to ..

They say another post is even more accurate .

I say Winterhawk's post is thee single most directly truth bereing of all posts so far on this thread.

[Lenwen]

If I/we give you canonical sources will you drop it?

Because I (and I'm not saying this to be mean) have a lot to do today and if I waste my time going through the various setting books and getting you page numbers and quotes I don't want it to be for nothing.

Drop what ?

I am speaking from the point of view of the Tolkeen peoples ..

If you can not provide canon sourced refrences to back up your side that is on you my friend but then you can not expect people to see what your saying as anything other then your opinion.

This was taught to me by Pepsi Jedi. So I have decided to stick to that line of rational thinking now that I am home with my books and can have a logical debate using canon sourced refrences .. Which can not be debated ..

I will listen to your side of the debate and your quotes by all means. Take them into consideration and maby form a new opinion on the subject at hand . Or I may just read the books an see what they say again an rethink my whole defense (from the Tolkeen's point of view) all over from scratch.