Nega-Psychics in Rifts

[Killer Cyborg]

THIS is a subject that can fill a thread on its own.
To sum up: I disagree.

Not believing in Thor, won't keep Mjolnir from crushing your skull.
Not believing in dragons doesn't make them go away, nor does it take away their flame breath or supernatural PS.
It might keep a Mind Melter from scanning your thoughts, but Odin will still hit you with his spear.
Vampires will still have super-regeneration, and so will werewolves. Spluglorth aren't going away, and I don't believe Nega-Psychics affect True Atlantean Tatto Magic (I could be wrong about that last one).
Not believing in Ley Lines doesn't make them vanish, and rune weapons won't suddenly crack. It won't put out a Greater Fire Elemental, nor dry up a Water Elemental.

With the Psychic Nullifier PCC, the Nega-Psychic doesn't need to exist.

You're thinking of the BTS Nega. The Rifts Nega believes they exist, but thinks he can take them out. Since that's an attitude most players I've gamed with have, it works fine in a group.

It's sort of odd that an anti-magic character is named the Nega Psychic, but whatcha gonna do?

So what if not believing in Mjolnir won't keep it from crushing your head? Neither will believing in it. Whether or not you believe that the hammer is magic is irrelevent to the fact that if some huge angry guy tries to hit you with it, you get the heck out of the way....

The Nega-psychics on Rifts Earth DO, as has been pointed out, believe in magic. Personally, I prefer it the other way.


Basically all the same explanations could apply that a Nega-Psychic would come up with if they encountered a dragon, god, or demon in the BtS world... only Rifts has the obvious high-technology to back it up.
There is NOTHING on Rifts Earth that cannot be explained away through technology.
Dragons? Dinosaurs who have been genetically engineered by scientists in order to perpetuate the myth that "magic" has returned.
"Magic Spells"? Nothing that couldn't be replicated by super-advanced technology. Call Lightning obviously includes linking to some sort of high-tech weapons satellite or something. Fireball is just a plasma-ejector with special effects.
Demons? Aliens or Genetically engineered life-forms or robots.
Psychic powers? Same as magic. Special effects and high-technology.
Supernatural Strength? Some sort of physical augmentation, like what Crazies and Juicers go through.

Obviously, there is some sort of conspiracy that has sprung up since the apocalypse (maybe before) that is determined to spread superstition and fear among the people, making them easier to control and keeping them disorganized.

Furthermore, in the original Conversion Book rules, Nega-Psychics got extra powers on Rifts Earth from the pumped up ley lines.
Powers of Negate Magic, Dispel Magic Barriers, Detect Concealment, Turn Dead, Mind Block AD, PPE Shield, TK Force Field, and 6th Sense would all kick in automatically without the nega-psychic realizing it.

So not believing in that dragon's breath CAN stop it from hurting you, with a subconsious TK Force Field.

[BroKe]

word

[Dead Boy]

I like the "conspiracy theory nut" angle you're going for, and it so works for me. Frankly from as role playing sense it works even better becaue that would enable you to play your character as almost a quasi-crazy living in how own world of denile. Yea... from that perspective, I'm down with ya, big guy.

[Scooter the Outlaw]

What's wrong with Nega-Psychics? I don't see anybody complaining about Psi-Stalkers (other than the HP to MDC thing in RUE). It's the same concept. Over time, repeated exposure to supernatural, magic and psychic threats has triggered an evolutionary response for dealing with these problems. It's an experimental phase of natural selection. It makes sense enough when you consider there are far dumber things running around on the same planet.

[Gomen_Nagai]

i believe negapsychics are just hunted like vermin they are.

by psi stalkers no less, ... Who the hell wants some stupid nega screwing around the food supply!

[demos606]

What's wrong with Nega-Psychics? I don't see anybody complaining about Psi-Stalkers (other than the HP to MDC thing in RUE). It's the same concept. Over time, repeated exposure to supernatural, magic and psychic threats has triggered an evolutionary response for dealing with these problems. It's an experimental phase of natural selection. It makes sense enough when you consider there are far dumber things running around on the same planet.

Psi-stalkers aren't deliberately played to intentionally **** with the rest of the party in what's supposed to be a cooperative environment.

[Slag]

Man...I LOVE this idea!

Now I want to play a BtS Nega Rifted to Rifts and believing in a massive conspiracy!

[Sentinel]

What's wrong with Nega-Psychics? I don't see anybody complaining about Psi-Stalkers (other than the HP to MDC thing in RUE). It's the same concept. Over time, repeated exposure to supernatural, magic and psychic threats has triggered an evolutionary response for dealing with these problems. It's an experimental phase of natural selection. It makes sense enough when you consider there are far dumber things running around on the same planet.

The difference between Psi Stalkers and Nega Psychics, is that originally, Negas didn't believe in such phenomena at all, and that's what protected them from it.
I felt that they (negas) made sense in a game where supernatural influences were uncommon, hidden, and more in line with the sort of "dark conspiracy". Once magic, psychics and the supernatural hit every street corner, I failed to see how anyone could disbelieve.
And yes, you can make the argument that magic can be seen as an unknown form of science: let me remove that argument. In my campaign world, and I suspect in many peoples', magic trumps science and the laws of science. It is not an unknown form of science, it is super-natural, like Super-Man is to Man.
Okay, so with that out of the way:
"Hi I'm a Nega Psychic"
"I am Thor, God of Thunder."
"I find that highly dubious."
SPLUTCH! (the sound of Mjolnir crushing the impudent mortal to a pulp).

Not believeing in a Greatest Rune Weapon doesn't make it go away, and neither does the Negate magic that Negas possess.

[Killer Cyborg]

What's wrong with Nega-Psychics? I don't see anybody complaining about Psi-Stalkers (other than the HP to MDC thing in RUE). It's the same concept. Over time, repeated exposure to supernatural, magic and psychic threats has triggered an evolutionary response for dealing with these problems. It's an experimental phase of natural selection. It makes sense enough when you consider there are far dumber things running around on the same planet.

The difference between Psi Stalkers and Nega Psychics, is that originally, Negas didn't believe in such phenomena at all, and that's what protected them from it.
I felt that they (negas) made sense in a game where supernatural influences were uncommon, hidden, and more in line with the sort of "dark conspiracy". Once magic, psychics and the supernatural hit every street corner, I failed to see how anyone could disbelieve.
And yes, you can make the argument that magic can be seen as an unknown form of science: let me remove that argument. In my campaign world, and I suspect in many peoples', magic trumps science and the laws of science. It is not an unknown form of science, it is super-natural, like Super-Man is to Man.
Okay, so with that out of the way:
"Hi I'm a Nega Psychic"
"I am Thor, God of Thunder."
"I find that highly dubious."
SPLUTCH! (the sound of Mjolnir crushing the impudent mortal to a pulp).

Not believeing in a Greatest Rune Weapon doesn't make it go away, and neither does the Negate magic that Negas possess.

Setting aside the question of why Thor would kill somebody for such a small reason, and the fact that a large hammer swung by a crazy person is just as likely to inspire a dodge as any other attack, and the TK force field power they got back in CB1....

Why would it matter whether a nega-psychic believed a sword was magic or not? So he assumes it's a high-tech sword like a vibro-blade.
How would that impair the character, the adventure, etc...?

[Killer Cyborg]

Killer, I agree with you except for the psionics part.

Nega-psychics do believe in psionics. They POSSESS psionics, after all. They can't negate them. While most are somewhat unconcious, they probably explain them logically as a mental phenomenon (which they are).

All magic is, of course, is a bunch of illusionary psychic powers he can negate with his own psychic powers

I can't tell if you haven't read BtS, or if you're expanding on the BtS version with a description of how you play things in your game by allowing them to believe in psychic phenomena.

[Sentinel]

How would that impair the character, the adventure, etc...?

In BtS, the Nega-Psychic got to emasculate magic and the supernatural based on his disbelief in these things.
I feel that in Rifts, it is the Nega who should now be emasculated, as his disbelief has been proven unfounded.

If the campaign establishes that magic is real (each GM will want to see magic differently I grant), then disbelieving it should be impossible, or at least very difficult once you see it.
What's next, the Nega-Physicist, who disbelieves in physical science, so the laws of science don't apply to him?
Even mages and psychics acknowledge science: they simply feel magic is superior for whatever reason.
Giving Negas the re-write in Rifts Psyscape took away the thing that made them an interesting and unique character: their outlook on the supernatural.
I simply feel they have no place on Rifts Earth.

[Killer Cyborg]

How would that impair the character, the adventure, etc...?

In BtS, the Nega-Psychic got to emasculate magic and the supernatural based on his disbelief in these things.
I feel that in Rifts, it is the Nega who should now be emasculated, as his disbelief has been proven unfounded.

Depends on what you mean by "proven unfounded".
If you mean that the rules confirm that magic exists, then that is also true in BtS.
If you mean that the world at large believes in magic, would that mean that in BtS the belief in magic has been "proven unfounded" because most of the world believes that it doesn't exist?

Or maybe you mean that you think that the evidence for the existence of magic would be overwhelming... but I already addressed that.

If the campaign establishes that magic is real (each GM will want to see magic differently I grant), then disbelieving it should be impossible, or at least very difficult once you see it.

Why?
You're talking about a world where science looks much the same as magic does. A flaming sword and a plasma sword are not that much different to the observer. One is magic, one is technology... but there's no obvious way to distinguish between the two.

What's next, the Nega-Physicist, who disbelieves in physical science, so the laws of science don't apply to him?

Actually, long before the New West book came out, I wrote up a large tribe of Indians that I had in the West. They were only about 10-20% actual Native American... many weren't even humans, just people and d-bees and mutant animals who had been adopted into the tribe.
They had magic Coup Sticks which would cast Magic Net on somebody on contact. They had Ghost Shirts which provided protection roughly equivilant to the CS armor against technological weapons (less against other attacks).
And, getting to the point, I wrote up the "Nega-Tech" OCC.
Most of the tribe believed in technology, they just didn't like or use it.
Nega-Techs didn't believe in it, and they subconsciously used their psychic powers to supress it.
And, of course, they would explain away technology as magic.
"'Robots'...? Come on, people! Obviously they're fancy golems. You just can't make that sort of thing work without magic..."

Even mages and psychics acknowledge science: they simply feel magic is superior for whatever reason.

The reason seems to be because of the writers' views on game balance.

Giving Negas the re-write in Rifts Psyscape took away the thing that made them an interesting and unique character: their outlook on the supernatural.

Agreed.

[Sentinel]

Actually, the Nega-TEchie already exists.
They are Killer Cyborgs' much-beloved Cyber Knights.
Now armed with Laser Bows.

[Danger]

Even mages and psychics acknowledge science: they simply feel magic is superior for whatever reason.

Even though it obviously isn't.

[Sentinel]

Even mages and psychics acknowledge science: they simply feel magic is superior for whatever reason.

Even though it obviously isn't.

That's a matter of subjectivity.
Take two characters, strip them naked, and dump them in the wilderness.
One of the two is a mage, the other a CS Grunt.
Now, who's got the upper hand?

Personally, I play either character type as I see fit at the moment: I think they both have merits, and my mood to play a particular character changes.

While not a huge fan of SoT, there was some pretty potent stuff for mages introduced there.
I do like Iron Juggernauts.

[Danger]

Even mages and psychics acknowledge science: they simply feel magic is superior for whatever reason.

Even though it obviously isn't.

That's a matter of subjectivity.
Take two characters, strip them naked, and dump them in the wilderness.
One of the two is a mage, the other a CS Grunt.
Now, who's got the upper hand?

Personally, I play either character type as I see fit at the moment: I think they both have merits, and my mood to play a particular character changes.

While not a huge fan of SoT, there was some pretty potent stuff for mages introduced there.
I do like Iron Juggernauts.

That's purely situational. You aren't going to be dumped naked into the middle of the wilderness every game. Therefore, that argument is moot.

Otherwise, if you're wanting to do damage, you pick up a gun and shoot someone. Casting magic (in general) is a waste of time & PPE.

We had this conversation last night. Palladium (especially RIFTS) does not reward you for being a spell caster, regardless if KS states that mages 'consider magic to be superior', it obviously isn't. Especially (as stated above) in the damage department.

Magic has some nice out of combat effects, that is hard to deny. But as far as combat is concerned, you're better off casting Armor spells on yourself and shooting your foes with a gun than you are casting any damage spells.

[Sentinel]

There are several good options for a fighting mage.
Armour of Ithan is one, along with Invulnerability, Impervious to Energy.
For damage, there is Energy Bolt, Fire Ball, Fire Bolt, Call Lightning, Fire Fist, Power Weapon, Frost Blade, and for the upper level mages with the PPE for it, there's Annihilate.
Sorcerous Fury and Blood & Thunder are also good for large melees.

And, for the mage that absolutely has to go heeled, there are TW guns.

You aren't going to be dumped naked into the middle of the wilderness every game.

Don't you start each of your campaigns that way?
I thought everyone did it that way...

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually, the Nega-TEchie already exists.
They are Killer Cyborgs' much-beloved Cyber Knights.
Now armed with Laser Bows.

Unfortunately.

[Sentinel]

Laser Bows for everyone!

[Gomen_Nagai]

what are you talking about,. Energy Stun Clubs, Laser shurikens and Laser bows for EVERYONE!

[Sentinel]

what are you talking about,. Energy Stun Clubs, Laser shurikens and Laser bows for EVERYONE!

I knew you were a Monty Haul GM!!!

[Danger]

There are several good options for a fighting mage.
Armour of Ithan is one, along with Invulnerability, Impervious to Energy.
For damage, there is Energy Bolt, Fire Ball, Fire Bolt, Call Lightning, Fire Fist, Power Weapon, Frost Blade, and for the upper level mages with the PPE for it, there's Annihilate.
Sorcerous Fury and Blood & Thunder are also good for large melees.

And, for the mage that absolutely has to go heeled, there are TW guns.

You aren't going to be dumped naked into the middle of the wilderness every game.

Don't you start each of your campaigns that way?
I thought everyone did it that way...

The problem is that most of those spells don't do as much damage as most standard guns.

[Gomen_Nagai]

Well . ... I thought Everyone Dug Laser Ninjas!

[Sentinel]

Well . ... I thought Everyone Dug Laser Ninjas!

You mean, like super-hero ninjas with APS Light & Superluminal Flight?

[Gomen_Nagai]

No... as in Ninjas armed with Laser weapons, Sorta like Power Rangers...

no wait, Exactly Like power rangers.

[Sentinel]

No... as in Ninjas armed with Laser weapons, Sorta like Power Rangers...

no wait, Exactly Like power rangers.

Didn't the Pink Ranger have a Laser Bow?

[Danger]

No... as in Ninjas armed with Laser weapons, Sorta like Power Rangers...

no wait, Exactly Like power rangers.

Didn't the Pink Ranger have a Laser Bow?

Yes, the Pink Ranger (Kimberly) had a Laser Bow.

*sighs wistfully*

I stopped watching the Power Rangers shortly after she left the series.

[Sentinel]

Killer Cyborg just loves the Laser Bow.

[Sentinel]

Sorry, but what's magic now?

Okay.
As GM, I determine that magic is, well, magic.
A separate force existing completely and totally apart from the laws of physical science.
Now, that make certain things possible in the game world context, such as the existance of the Unicorn and the Dragon.
Gods are gods: not super-beings, not aliens; the actual figures of "myth and legend".
Ley Lines are what they are, not any form of energy such as electro-magnetism.
and so on.

Now, the nega-psychic supposedly doesn't believe in this stuff: that's his perogative. People once believed the Earth was flat, and the Sun revolved around the Earth.
But, his belief is simply poppycock. He doesn't have to accept the truth: but, as GM, I determine that the truth is that magic is real, and his disbelief has no bearing on the game worlds' truth.
I am familiar with the sort of ambiguity ("Thor is an Alien, with high technology that we don't understand", etc), and I on occasion use it in my HU game. But, for this purpose, assume the absolute is : Thor is a god, inevery sense of being a god.Magic is magic, not a form of science we don't understand, but a force outside of physical science.
Now, the Nega-Psychics' disbelief in the absolute is meaningless: his disbelief doesn't impact the truth. His disruption of magic and related phenomena through his (hidden) psychic powers may re-inforce his disbelief (and thus, his delusion), but it doesn't change the absolutes. Before, the Nega-Psychic didn't believe, and it was his disbelief that fueled his ability to disrupt supernatural phenomena: now, supposedly he believes, but he gets the same powers he always had, only on a grander scale. He gets Mind Block, which he would need to consciously erect (otherwise, he would get Mind Block:Auto-Defense, which he does not), so what, he believes it could hurt him now, but he has defenses so it's okay?

The Nega Psychic worked a lot better when magic and the supernatural weren't on every street corner, with 100' tall Ley Lines bisecting the continent.'

The game setting supports the absolute of the existance of magic: the rules determine it's use and effects. The "fluff text" supports the existance of the supernatural.
So, the Nega-Psychic, cool as he once was, is simply delusional, and has no place in Rifts Earth.

[Killer Cyborg]

Haven't read BtS, I'm extrapolating from what I've heard about them. They can't negate psionics like they can magic, so how can they disbelief in psionics too?

Because they just don't believe in psionics.
Some people don't believe that the world is round, and some people don't believe in evolution.

[Killer Cyborg]

Now, the Nega-Psychics' disbelief in the absolute is meaningless: his disbelief doesn't impact the truth. His disruption of magic and related phenomena through his (hidden) psychic powers may re-inforce his disbelief (and thus, his delusion), but it doesn't change the absolutes.

Of course not.
Nobody ever said that it did.

The game setting supports the absolute of the existance of magic: the rules determine it's use and effects. The "fluff text" supports the existance of the supernatural.
So, the Nega-Psychic, cool as he once was, is simply delusional, and has no place in Rifts Earth.

Nega-Psychics were delusional in BtS too.
Besides, who says that delusional people have no place in Rifts Earth?
Never played a Crazy?

[Sentinel]

Now, the Nega-Psychics' disbelief in the absolute is meaningless: his disbelief doesn't impact the truth. His disruption of magic and related phenomena through his (hidden) psychic powers may re-inforce his disbelief (and thus, his delusion), but it doesn't change the absolutes.

Of course not.
Nobody ever said that it did.

And thus, not believeing that Thor is a god does not take away his divine status. Nor his godly powers.
The Nega-Psychics disbelief, which used to offer him some worthy protection, is out of place in a world where Alien Intelligences openly come to visit, and vampires run loose over an entire country.

The game setting supports the absolute of the existance of magic: the rules determine it's use and effects. The "fluff text" supports the existance of the supernatural.
So, the Nega-Psychic, cool as he once was, is simply delusional, and has no place in Rifts Earth.

Nega-Psychics were delusional in BtS too.
Besides, who says that delusional people have no place in Rifts Earth?
Never played a Crazy?

The Crazys' delusional state is a little different.
Besides, they have the excuse of M.O.M. implants.

[Killer Cyborg]

Now, the Nega-Psychics' disbelief in the absolute is meaningless: his disbelief doesn't impact the truth. His disruption of magic and related phenomena through his (hidden) psychic powers may re-inforce his disbelief (and thus, his delusion), but it doesn't change the absolutes.

Of course not.
Nobody ever said that it did.

And thus, not believeing that Thor is a god does not take away his divine status. Nor his godly powers.
The Nega-Psychics disbelief, which used to offer him some worthy protection, is out of place in a world where Alien Intelligences openly come to visit, and vampires run loose over an entire country.

Nobody ever said that it did protect him from Thor.
Heck, not much in the universe will protect you from Thor.

Why is "Must protect you from Thor's Godly Powers" a prerequisite in your head for something to be worthy of being a character class?

As for being out of place, Nega-Psychics can run into packs of vampires, or demons, or even an alien intelligence or two in BtS as well.

The Crazys' delusional state is a little different.
Besides, they have the excuse of M.O.M. implants.

And the nega-psychic has the excuse of being a stubborn fanatic.

How is the Crazy's delusional state any different?
Or the Popeye Syndrome that can be built into any character?

[Sentinel]

Now, the Nega-Psychics' disbelief in the absolute is meaningless: his disbelief doesn't impact the truth. His disruption of magic and related phenomena through his (hidden) psychic powers may re-inforce his disbelief (and thus, his delusion), but it doesn't change the absolutes.

Of course not.
Nobody ever said that it did.

Just offering a rebuttal to the whole "magic is a technology we don't understand yet" argument.

And thus, not believeing that Thor is a god does not take away his divine status. Nor his godly powers.
The Nega-Psychics disbelief, which used to offer him some worthy protection, is out of place in a world where Alien Intelligences openly come to visit, and vampires run loose over an entire country.

Nobody ever said that it did protect him from Thor.
Heck, not much in the universe will protect you from Thor.

Why is "Must protect you from Thor's Godly Powers" a prerequisite in your head for something to be worthy of being a character class?

No, it's just an easy, clear example to make of how the Nega-Psychics' disbelief in The Supernatural (Thor) does not protect him or somehow make the supernatural thing (Thor) impotent.
If your disbelief in the Supernaturals' Power is going to be given any creedance, then, yes, it must protect you from a gods' power.

In the lieu of Thor, you could say "Zeus and his Lightning Bolts", or "Shiva and his Third Eye".

As for being out of place, Nega-Psychics can run into packs of vampires, or demons, or even an alien intelligence or two in BtS as well.

And, they can choose to not believe that these creatures are what they are. But, that doesn't change their (demons, vampires, et al) nature.

The Crazys' delusional state is a little different.
Besides, they have the excuse of M.O.M. implants.

And the nega-psychic has the excuse of being a stubborn fanatic.

The Boxers stubbornly and fanatically believed their Kung Fu would protect them from the bullets of the western devils: we can see where that got them.
At least Crazies get cool Physical powers to go with their manias.

How is the Crazy's delusional state any different?
Their delusions aren't supposed to have a direct impact on the world around them. They can choose to disbelieve in the supernautral, but their delusion doesn't disrupt magic.
Or the Popeye Syndrome that can be built into any character?

[Killer Cyborg]

Why is "Must protect you from Thor's Godly Powers" a prerequisite in your head for something to be worthy of being a character class?

No, it's just an easy, clear example to make of how the Nega-Psychics' disbelief in The Supernatural (Thor) does not protect him or somehow make the supernatural thing (Thor) impotent.
If your disbelief in the Supernaturals' Power is going to be given any creedance, then, yes, it must protect you from a gods' power.

In the lieu of Thor, you could say "Zeus and his Lightning Bolts", or "Shiva and his Third Eye".

Sure, but what does it matter?
Believing that Thor (or Zeuss, whatever) DOES exist won't protect you from his lightning bolts either.

And not believing in vampires doesn't keep vampires from ripping a nega-psychic apart in BtS either.

The Boxers stubbornly and fanatically believed their Kung Fu would protect them from the bullets of the western devils: we can see where that got them.
At least Crazies get cool Physical powers to go with their manias.

Nega-psychics get cool psychic powers to go with their mania.
Especially if you give them the CB1 boosts.

[Sentinel]

Why is "Must protect you from Thor's Godly Powers" a prerequisite in your head for something to be worthy of being a character class?

No, it's just an easy, clear example to make of how the Nega-Psychics' disbelief in The Supernatural (Thor) does not protect him or somehow make the supernatural thing (Thor) impotent.
If your disbelief in the Supernaturals' Power is going to be given any creedance, then, yes, it must protect you from a gods' power.

In the lieu of Thor, you could say "Zeus and his Lightning Bolts", or "Shiva and his Third Eye".

Sure, but what does it matter?
Believing that Thor (or Zeuss, whatever) DOES exist won't protect you from his lightning bolts either.

Well of course not, but the argument was never about belief: it was about dis-belief.
No ones belief in ley lines makes them appear on the landscape: they exist whether you want them or not.
It's the dis-belief in the supernatural when it is all around you that I find inmplausable.

And not believing in vampires doesn't keep vampires from ripping a nega-psychic apart in BtS either.

The Boxers stubbornly and fanatically believed their Kung Fu would protect them from the bullets of the western devils: we can see where that got them.
At least Crazies get cool Physical powers to go with their manias.

Nega-psychics get cool psychic powers to go with their mania.
Especially if you give them the CB1 boosts.

I don't.
I restrict Nega-Psychics to BtS, where they belong.

[Killer Cyborg]

Well of course not, but the argument was never about belief: it was about dis-belief.
No ones belief in ley lines makes them appear on the landscape: they exist whether you want them or not.
It's the dis-belief in the supernatural when it is all around you that I find inmplausable.

More implausible than a Crazy who thinks that his "magic hat" gives him super powers?
Or a flooper that... well, that is a flooper?

And not believing in vampires doesn't keep vampires from ripping a nega-psychic apart in BtS either.

Nega-psychics get cool psychic powers to go with their mania.
Especially if you give them the CB1 boosts.

I don't.
I restrict Nega-Psychics to BtS, where they belong.[/quote]

And we've come full circle.

[Sentinel]

Well of course not, but the argument was never about belief: it was about dis-belief.
No ones belief in ley lines makes them appear on the landscape: they exist whether you want them or not.
It's the dis-belief in the supernatural when it is all around you that I find inmplausable.

More implausible than a Crazy who thinks that his "magic hat" gives him super powers?
The Crazy is irrational. No matter what he believes, he has enhanced PS, PE, PP, SPD, and durability and Psionics.
Regardless of his insanity, he really does have powers.
Just maybe not the powers he wants.
Again though, it is not his insanity or irrationality that gives him powers, it's his M.O.M. implants.
The Nega-Psychic supposedly gets this power to disrupt the supernatural from his strong disbelief in magic and the supernatural.
Or a flooper that... well, that is a flooper?

Why you gotta dis Floopers?

And not believing in vampires doesn't keep vampires from ripping a nega-psychic apart in BtS either.
But, it is possible to dis-believe in them in BtS: they aren't freely roaming the streets at dark hundreds or thousands strong. BtS doesn't have the proliferation of vamps that Vamp Kingdoms has.

My point there is that BtS doesn't have the massive presence of the supernatural that Rifts does: not that the same things don't exist in both settings. So yes, the Nega-Psychic works in BtS where supernatural badness hides in the darkness, and around the corner. Not in Rifts, where it walks down the street in plain sight.
Warping the Nega so that now he believes, but gets the same resistances that he did before is (to me) kinda stupid. It un-does that which made the character interesting simply in order to shoehorn him into Rifts, and then adds the Nullifier which makes the Nega unnecessary.

Nega-psychics get cool psychic powers to go with their mania.
Especially if you give them the CB1 boosts.

I don't.
I restrict Nega-Psychics to BtS, where they belong.

And we've come full circle.[/quote]

[Killer Cyborg]

The Nega-Psychic supposedly gets this power to disrupt the supernatural from his strong disbelief in magic and the supernatural.

No, he gets the power to disrupt the supernatural from his psychic powers... they're just focused that way because of a strong disbelief in the supernatural.
But a normal person who disbelieves, no matter how much they disbelieve, can't disrupt magic.
They're like a gaybasher who hates gays in part because he really is one.

And not believing in vampires doesn't keep vampires from ripping a nega-psychic apart in BtS either.

But, it is possible to dis-believe in them in BtS: they aren't freely roaming the streets at dark hundreds or thousands strong. BtS doesn't have the proliferation of vamps that Vamp Kingdoms has.

How many vampires do you need to see fly up in bat form, turn into a fanged human, rip the arms off of somebody, drink that person's blood, then turn into mist and fly off before you have to be convinced that there are such things as vampires...?
Personally, I'd only have to see it happen once.
Same with most people.
Nega-psychics are different. They could see it happen a million times and still be trying to figure out how the trick was done.
So the number of vampires in the various games doesn't matter.

Warping the Nega so that now he believes, but gets the same resistances that he did before is (to me) kinda stupid. It un-does that which made the character interesting simply in order to shoehorn him into Rifts, and then adds the Nullifier which makes the Nega unnecessary.

I agree with you here.
The CB1 upgrade was much better.

[Scooter the Outlaw]

They're like a gaybasher who hates gays in part because he really is one.

Game, set, match. Best thing I've read all day.

Chalk one up for Killer Cyborg.