Dwarven Mages

[Killer Cyborg]

I just noticed that Dwarves in Rifts can be mages (some are particularly attracted to Techno-Wizardry).

Which means that a Dwarf from Rifts Earth could end up on Palladium fantasy as a PC or NPC (hero or villian).

Anybody ever done this?
How did it work out?
If you haven't, how do you think it would work out?

[Shin Kenshiro]

a magic using dwarf on Palladium would quickly be executed by his own people if he was ever discovered using it. As a race that has forever forsaken magic, the sight of a dwarf mage would probably NOT be welcome by elves, dwarves, titans, and gnomes. I wouldn't expect this guy to last long once word got out.

[Goliath Strongarm]

A dwarven mage would be outcast, probably hunted down by both elves and dwarves, fearing a return of "evil dwarven mages".

There's no probably about it. Elves and dwarves would work together to obliterate said dwarven mage, as soon as they found out about him. There are the rare FEW dwarves that MIGHT not. More than likely, they wouldn't HIDE him, they just wouldn't go out of their way to hunt him down. And MAYBE about 0.0000001% of the dwarven race might actively hide him, or work with him.

Personally, I think it's a silly reason. All dwarves everywhere suddenly stop practicing magic?

On Palladium, yes, they did. And the ones who WOULDNT suddenly stop, were killed. Even most the ones who DID had their minds wiped of the knowledge. Especially the evil ones, or the ones who practiced "non-acceptable" magic, like summoning, necromancy, etc. This is a direct result of the elf-dwarf war. The dwarves, as a race, quit practicing magic. I don't think its silly. It's rather SIMILAR to our world... after we saw what we had done with nukes, we said "holy ****. OK... well, he HAVE these things... but we don't plan on USING them..." The dwarves took it one step further, and said "we're not even going to have the knowledge of how to do this, anymore".

--
GS

[Dr. Doom III]

Actually a Dwarve's +1 bonus to save vs. magic does directly indicate an anti-magic makeup.

Lizard Mages have a +4 bonus to save vs. magic.
They must be really anti-magic.

[Killer Cyborg]

Seems pretty unanimous so far.

How about as an NPC (villian or just innocent bystander) Dwarven Mage who has ended up on Palladium and is trying to teach magic to other dwarves?
The party could be hired (or volunteer) to either snuff the mage or get him the heck out of the Palladium dimension.

[Goliath Strongarm]

They were the bloody rune smiths guys. That's why they gave it up.

Not to mention some of the best summoners in the megaverse.. I mean, look at the circle's they made... look at baalgor, NOW.... and think.. the ancient dwarves did that. Now THAT is power.. and EVIL...

--
GS

[Shin Kenshiro]

Still, THEY tapped into powers that no other race COULD. That shows skill in the dark arts above all the other races. Still though, it looks like it's been answered for KC...a dwarven mage = a very hunted target

[Killer Cyborg]

Still, THEY tapped into powers that no other race COULD. That shows skill in the dark arts above all the other races. Still though, it looks like it's been answered for KC...a dwarven mage = a very hunted target

Well, yeah.
But Changlings are also very hunted targets... people still play them.

[Shin Kenshiro]

didn't say "don't play him", basically said "don't expect him to live long".

Don't forget that Changelings can at least shapeshift for as long as they want. A dwarven mage...gotta be a bit more sneaky if you want to use his magic

[Swift-13]

I think the anti-magic beliefs are appropriate for Palladium-based Dwarves. They grew up under those conditions and upbringing, seeing as what they did during the Elf-Dwarf Wars.

For other settings, however, it's utter crap. There are Dwarves in the UWW full embrace magic in spaceships for Gawds' sake. That's putting a lot of trust in magic, even if it is Techno-Wizardry.
Another race of Dwarves, the Asgardian Dwarves, still hold and (might) use the secrets of Rune Magic. The book even hints at other forms of wizards among them.
To boot, the book Federation of Magic, for RIFTS, even has a Dwarven High Magus: Dan Ironforge.

Of course, if a Dwarf from another world were to journey to the Palladium World, he or she had very best conceal their magical aptitude...

[Killer Cyborg]

Possible disguise for a Dwarven Mage.
Wear lots of jewelry and rings.
Claim that you are casting the spells through the items...

Or claim to be a mind-mage and try to use spells that mimic or could be mistaken for Psi-powers.

[Swift-13]

Actually, could a Palladium Dwarf be a Mystic? I mean, the 2nd Ed. book states that Mystics are considered Psychics, rather than magic users...

Just a thought is all...

[Goliath Strongarm]

Explain the dwarven technowizard, then.
Or the Asgardian Dwarves.

Oh, and if I am a mage of another race, why the heck would I care if my apprentice were a dwarf? What the dwarven race decides to do is their problem, not mine.

And the stuff about the elf-dwarf war only happened in one backwater dimension.

Easy to explain those others. RIFTs. Palladium Fantasy. Problem explained.

You may refer to it as a backwater dimension, but, remember, its that backwater forum that you're on. This is the PF forum, we're going to give you PF answers.

--
GS

[Swift-13]

Or you could just scrap the "no Dwarven wizards" crap all together.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Or you could just scrap the "no Dwarven wizards" crap all together.

Sure ya can. And you can have the Golden City of Baalgor still standing. And the Wastelands can still be a rain forest. And the Yin Sloth? That's still a tropical rain forest as well, with human civilization growing wonderfully, with TECHNOLOGY instead of magic (since thats how humankind was going, in that region).

You can do whatever you want in YOUR game. If you're the GM. If you aren't, all your working ways around, trying to find a loophole, are pointless. Because that's how this thread looks to me. A player who wants to play a dwarven mage, and is upset because they're GM said "Dwarves here don't practice magic".

So, it boils down like this- if you're the GM, and you want dwarven mages, fine. But remember, if it's one or two, they are outcasts, likely to be slaughtered by the others. If the dwarves never swore off magic, theres going to be a LOT more than one or two of them out there.

--
GS

[Svartalf]

Nice try Aegis... but you forget that it is an incredibly strong cultural thing... a bit like a German or Austrian guy trying to officially launch a National Socialist Workers' Party of Germany, complete with uniforms and Swastika emblems... or trying to create a Nazi party in Israel, complete with rehabilitating Bormann and the "war criminals" the Shin Beth tracked down...

[Goliath Strongarm]

Nice try Aegis... but you forget that it is an incredibly strong cultural thing... a bit like a German or Austrian guy trying to officially launch a National Socialist Workers' Party of Germany, complete with uniforms and Swastika emblems... or trying to create a Nazi party in Israel, complete with rehabilitating Bormann and the "war criminals" the Shin Beth tracked down...

As hilarious as I find this...Let me inform you that the nazi ideals are still held by a FEW (younger) people in Germany. Of course, its well hidden, and buried, but if you know what to look for, it IS there.

But that's the point. If anyone else knows, they are NOT going to let it slide. Just as noone else can know about the dwarf, or it's going to DIE.

I had a GM who eventually let a player try a dwarven magic user. We were all around level 3 when we discovered what he was. The party was as follows:

Human Merc
Dwarven diabolist (who pretended to be a scholar)
human knight
gnome vagabond (dont ask)
minotaur diabolist

As soon as we found out about the dwarf, we killed him. And notice, none of us were dwarves or elves. But, the WORLD knows about the dwarven ban, and the world backs it up.

--
GS

[Killer Cyborg]

Possible disguise for a Dwarven Mage.
Wear lots of jewelry and rings.
Claim that you are casting the spells through the items...

Or claim to be a mind-mage and try to use spells that mimic or could be mistaken for Psi-powers.

Noone is going to teach a dwarf magic! All dwarves have forsaken magic!

Try reading the original post in a topic before you jump in with your opinions.

[Veknironth]

Well, the one thing that really interests me in this recurring thread is how people take umbrage with the idea that dwarves do not learn nor teach magic. I figure it just is. KS wrote it that way and so that's enough. I don't see the big desire to have a dwarven mage. I really think it's because the book says there are none.

I wonder why this is such a push for this prohibited combination. I never see someone trying to find a way to play an ogre or orc mind mage for example. What's the allure of the Dwarven mage?

-Vek
"Just curious."

[Goliath Strongarm]

Now, I find it hard to justify a social stigma being as all encompassing as a genetic inability.

Go have "adult relations" with your mother. Or your sister. Or your father.

Still find it hard to understand?

--
GS

Sorry for those of you grossed out by this, but was the only thing I could think of to compare.

[Killer Cyborg]

I wonder why this is such a push for this prohibited combination. I never see someone trying to find a way to play an ogre or orc mind mage for example. What's the allure of the Dwarven mage?

1. It is FORBIDDEN! That's enough.
2. There is a good in-game reason why dwarves can't be mages. Unfortunately, the reason is good enough that it makes me wonder what would happen if a Dwarf mage (or several of them) cropped up. It would make a lot of elves nervous, for one. Even after they killed the mages, they would be a lot more suspicious of all dwarves after that.
3. Dwarves are just cool.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Such things still happen with vile, reprehensible people. They are not unable to do so. And I will not elaborate further on that subject, as this is not Sound Off.

Yes they are. But when others find out what they do, they are typically ostracized (sp?) from society. Now, take this as something a million times more forbidden.

If you don't like that comparison, how about the comparisson that follows:

Cannibals. People who kill other people, and eat their flesh. It's not physically impossbile, but, what willl our society do to those (few, thankfully) that do commit such an atrocity?

--
GS

[Veknironth]

Well, I look at it as Dwarves cannot be mages and that's enough for me. You just draw a line in the sand by saying a social stigma is not a good enough reason for them to be able to take that OCC but a genetic reason is good enough. I have no problem accepting it that the Dwarves just don't practice magic anymore. I'm just curious why this is such a hot button.

-Vek
"I guess not letting Dwarves be mages is a little short sighted?"

[Killer Cyborg]

Possible disguise for a Dwarven Mage.
Wear lots of jewelry and rings.
Claim that you are casting the spells through the items...

Or claim to be a mind-mage and try to use spells that mimic or could be mistaken for Psi-powers.

Noone is going to teach a dwarf magic! All dwarves have forsaken magic!

Try reading the original post in a topic before you jump in with your opinions.

I did. We're talking PF here. If you want to RIFT in a dwarven mage, he is toast in a short period of time. End of story. Unless your GM allows it.

This post makes a lot more sense in context than your first post, but...
1. Why would he be toast in short order? Are there Palladium Fantasy Psi-Stalkers running around that I'm unaware of? Why do you assume that he couldn't keep his powers hidden?
2. One of the scenarios I asked for opinion on would be having the GM bring a dwarven mage in as an NPC or villian for the party to contend with. In this case, I think it's rather obvious that the GM would allow it.
3. For that matter, your statement of "Unless your GM allows it" kind of negates the rest of your post.

Don't feel any need to respond to this post, btw.
There are more productive conversations going on in this topic

[Goliath Strongarm]

Why do you assume that he couldn't keep his powers hidden?

You're asking the wrong question. The right question is, why WOULD he hide it? He has no reason to. He doesn't know it's forbidden, on this world for dwarves to know magic. So, why would he hide what he is?

--
GS

[Killer Cyborg]

Why do you assume that he couldn't keep his powers hidden?

You're asking the wrong question. The right question is, why WOULD he hide it? He has no reason to. He doesn't know it's forbidden, on this world for dwarves to know magic. So, why would he hide what he is?

--
GS

Assuming that he just wandered through a random rift (which is certainly likely), then you are right.
Of course, once he openly cast a spell and was chased by an angry mob he might catch on and be more subtle in the future.

Or maybe he came to Palladium with a specific agenda, knowing what the local taboos are...

[Veknironth]

Well, GS has a good point there. Sure he could hide it but why would he? I suppose someone could say that in the other dimension he was persecuted for his magic abilities and is overly cautious of showing his powers. Of course, there would also be language barriers, culture shock, etc. If the Dwarven mage has any technology that has to be considered as well.

I mean it is a good way around the stigma, but it does come with additional problems.

-Vek
"I always prefer not to mix systems."

[Borast]

I can see this going something like this...

Uh, dwarf Brother, can you tell me where I am? I was walking along the road peacefully, and all of a sudden I'm here in the bush.

Certainly brother, you are in (insert name of area of your choice with lots of Dwarves).

Thank you brother, now if you can tell me how I can obtain the components for a gate spell so I can go home...brother, why do you look at me so strangely?

Oh, my apologies brother, here is the first ingredient you need >splorch< (the sound of a sword being driven into the mage's gut).

[Entiago]

Ok, I have been watching this thread alot, got some things to say:

1: A Dwarven Mage would be cool, unlikely but cool (better as a villian).

2. A Dwarven Mage could only "hide" his identity for a short while. See Aura, Detect P.P.E. or like spell, etc.; Will leave the Dwarf naked to mind readers.

3. If a G.M. allowed it cool. But you forget the horror. Just like the Nazi reference sure its around and small, but I'll be damned if someones not watching them with a close eye. The moment something suspicious happens their nailed. (unless a letter is sent to the watchers suppervisors and is lost on way)

4. This is the worst thought, How could it slip thru fingers, how could this happen. If one has learned, who else? Who was the teacher, and why did they teach it? How many more of them know? Ohh I smell trouble

[Goliath Strongarm]

4. This is the worst thought, How could it slip thru fingers, how could this happen. If one has learned, who else? Who was the teacher, and why did they teach it? How many more of them know? Ohh I smell trouble

Bingo. Can we say The Elf-Dwarf war, part 2? Is would it just be part 7?

--
GS

[Killer Cyborg]

4. This is the worst thought, How could it slip thru fingers, how could this happen. If one has learned, who else? Who was the teacher, and why did they teach it? How many more of them know? Ohh I smell trouble

Bingo. Can we say The Elf-Dwarf war, part 2? Is would it just be part 7?

--
GS

Exactly.
It seems to me that if a Dwarven Mage were discovered, it would have much larger consequences than "Let's kill him!" and "Whew. Problem Solved!"

[Killer Cyborg]

Seems pretty unanimous so far.

How about as an NPC (villian or just innocent bystander) Dwarven Mage who has ended up on Palladium and is trying to teach magic to other dwarves?
The party could be hired (or volunteer) to either snuff the mage or get him the heck out of the Palladium dimension.

This would be a great story line. Especially one where the party was somehow required to simply remove the dwarf from the dimension unharmed. Chances are, any person from the world of Palladium would want to kill the guy on sight. So the adventurers could be tasked with sending him home unscathed. That would lead to a few problems since they would be seen as allies of the "evil" dwarf mage by the angry masses.

I probably wouldnt stop a player from playing a dwarf mage as long as he had a great backstory of deception and hiding his identity. He would also have to keep a low expectation of survivability. Just getting the party to accept him should be a huge cultural problem for all the reasons cited above.

Good response!
Thank you.

[Avatara]

I have noticed alot of people posting that no (pf) dwarf would ever learn magic. In the balgor wastlands books under one of the encounter tables you will find a party of dwarfs with a dwarven wizard in it. The encounter leaves it up to the GM as to the reason why they are there be it curse, sleept for 10000 years, etc. Also in the Eastern Territories. If you read about the city of Northolme you will find an entire group of dwarves trying to re-descover Rune magic!. To the dwarf from other world with magic. Yes they are alowed but treat them like a changling any time some one sees them casting magic. (either their the evil dwarves of old or their changlings in the form of a dwarf because no dwarf can/will canst magic)

[Ted Smythe]

1: A Dwarven Mage would be cool, unlikely but cool (better as a villian).

2. A Dwarven Mage could only "hide" his identity for a short while. See Aura, Detect P.P.E. or like spell, etc.; Will leave the Dwarf naked to mind readers.

I just ran a PFRPG2 adventure with a reawakened Dwarven Life Force wizard(ess). She freaked the character out. He knew Dwarves weren't supposed to practise magic, so he figured she had some serious power. The character is a mind mage, so his abilities confirmed this.

Any Dwarf with magic powers is going to inspire fear in other PFRPG2 characters simply because a) he probably got that power from somebody really evil or b) he comes from another time of dimension and has to have a lot of power to have made the trip or stayed in stasis that long.

[Goliath Strongarm]

I have noticed alot of people posting that no (pf) dwarf would ever learn magic. In the balgor wastlands books under one of the encounter tables you will find a party of dwarfs with a dwarven wizard in it. The encounter leaves it up to the GM as to the reason why they are there be it curse, sleept for 10000 years, etc.

And if you read the rest of it, it talks of how they think the ED war is still going on. And that they speak ANCIENT DIALECTS of dwarven and elven. It's POSSIBLE that they were just recently released from suspended animation. Which led to the question of who released them, and why.

If you read about the city of Northolme you will find an entire group of dwarves trying to re-descover Rune magic!.

Yes. A group of ROGUE DWARVES, led by a priest who believe's Belimar came to him in a dream, and told him how to use the rune forge already there in the city. And how did the rest of the dwarves (the ones that found out, anyways) react? They attacked. It didn't matter that the forge was there, or that a priest claimed that a dwarven god sent him a dream, telling him to do it. All that mattered was that they were dwarves, attempting to do the forbidden. 5 of the peon followers were killed. And a lot was done to stop any further attempts. Of course, the psycho's found a way around that, but, the point is, look at the reaction. And the high priest of Belimar refused to even CONSIDER that Belimar wanted it to be done. Now, imagine how the dwarves would react if it actually WAS done.

--
GS