Rituals vs Invocations

[thorr-kan]

One of the strengths of Palladium's magic system is that any spell can be a ritual or an invocation. I was introduced to this magic system through BTS1, so it really struck a chord with me. But over time and different game lines, I've come to wonder if certain spells shouldn't *always* be rituals.

Nightbane goes that route, making some summoning and some enchanting spells rituals only: Call Creature of Light, Call Nightland Denizen, Charm Weapons, Temporary Enchantment. For myself, I wonder if expanding that requirement to any circle, summoning, calling, binding, and enchanting spell might be an interesting campaign rule?

Has anyone used ritual magic similar to this in their game?

[Warshield73]

In general I have anything that creates (Golom, zombie, etc.) be ritual only. I also use rituals as a way to limit mages by allowing them to get rituals instead of invocations to limit its use in combat or other situations.

[thorr-kan]

In general I have anything that creates (Golom, zombie, etc.) be ritual only. I also use rituals as a way to limit mages by allowing them to get rituals instead of invocations to limit its use in combat or other situations.

I can see the former. The latter is an idea I hadn't considered. But it would be a logical outcome of setting decisions and of fighting cultists.

I think part of my preference for rituals for some spells is basing protection circles and summoning on translations of the Summoner's arts from Palladium Fantasy. That's an impression I got from reading BTS1 back in that day.

[ShadowLogan]

Some of the entries in the Wizard list do seem to be restricted to Rituals and do not allow Spell versions already. I'd also say anything that requires physical components is likely also a ritual even if it isn't stated to be.

[Warshield73]

Some of the entries in the Wizard list do seem to be restricted to Rituals and do not allow Spell versions already. I'd also say anything that requires physical components is likely also a ritual even if it isn't stated to be.

Agreed, this goes back to my anything physical rule. If you have to have a lump of clay or a dead body, ritual. Have to draw a circle on the ground, ritual only.

In general I have anything that creates (Golom, zombie, etc.) be ritual only. I also use rituals as a way to limit mages by allowing them to get rituals instead of invocations to limit its use in combat or other situations.

I can see the former. The latter is an idea I hadn't considered. But it would be a logical outcome of setting decisions and of fighting cultists.

I think part of my preference for rituals for some spells is basing protection circles and summoning on translations of the Summoner's arts from Palladium Fantasy. That's an impression I got from reading BTS1 back in that day.

The difference between invocation and ritual has been a problem from the beginning and it has never really been cleared up. Along these lines some spells would likely be invocation only. Call lightning, carpet of adhesion, spells along those lines might be invocation only.

What I would like, especially for BTS and Heroes but also for all other games, is a way for non-mages to cast rituals like you see on shows like Buffy and Supernatural. I do this with scrolls now but it would be better if there was a set system for this.

[thorr-kan]

What I would like, especially for BTS and Heroes but also for all other games, is a way for non-mages to cast rituals like you see on shows like Buffy and Supernatural. I do this with scrolls now but it would be better if there was a set system for this.

There was a post about this on one of the Palladium FB pages years ago that gave playtest rules for this. Alternatively, the d20 incantation rules in d20 Modern, D&D 3E's Unearthed Arcana, or Pathfinder RPG, would be a good fit.

Or judicious use of the variant rules in the Through the Glass Darkly from Nightbane. The Principles of Magic special skill lets you cast spells, the Sorcerous Proficiencies can grant your spells. A small sacrifice of skills for the ability to do a bit of magic.

[thorr-kan]

Here it is! FB login may be required. Not my content. Caveat Emptor. Etc.



ETA: And Pact Magic, as a bonus.

[Warshield73]

What I would like, especially for BTS and Heroes but also for all other games, is a way for non-mages to cast rituals like you see on shows like Buffy and Supernatural. I do this with scrolls now but it would be better if there was a set system for this.

There was a post about this on one of the Palladium FB pages years ago that gave playtest rules for this. Alternatively, the d20 incantation rules in d20 Modern, D&D 3E's Unearthed Arcana, or Pathfinder RPG, would be a good fit.

Or judicious use of the variant rules in the Through the Glass Darkly from Nightbane. The Principles of Magic special skill lets you cast spells, the Sorcerous Proficiencies can grant your spells. A small sacrifice of skills for the ability to do a bit of magic.

I'm not a huge fan of Glass Darkly but there are a few things to use there. I think the main reason I don't do it is that the magic system is fairly fragile and like I said earlier we don't have great definitions of what a ritual is vs an incantation. Also, I have rarely needed this in RIfts as there is almost always a mage in the group and really it just fits BtS and my dark version of HU/NB.

What I envisioned was a way for ordinary people to do rituals like protection circles, tracking spells, maybe even open a rift like you see in shows like Supernatural or even Buffy. To balance things out I planned to require non-mages to have components or even artifacts that an actual spellcaster wouldn't need. This would be a lot of work for a house rule so I never did much with it. The most of what I did list a few things for a couple of spells like portal to the Nightlands and such.

I think a system like this would work for most PB games but like I said especially for BtS, NB, and HU.

[green.nova343]

main thing I tend to see as the differences:

• Invocations can primarily only draw PPE from the caster/talisman/ley line. Rituals can have multiple people (including non-casters) contribute PPE...including a "blood sacrifice". Yes, I know that theoretically you could kill someone/some animal to cast an invocation, but that not only is messy on the carpet but you're going to go through sacrifices way too quickly.
• Invocations are fairly quick to cast -- 1 or 2 melee actions tops -- so are ideal for combat. Rituals require a lot more prep -- longer incantations, perhaps a "sacred place", might even require a celestial alignment (or simply using the extra PPE, see prior item) -- but theoretically should then result in a stronger spell strength.
• This is where we get into more "house rule" than canon rules. Invocations are what makes someone a wizard/mage/magic-user/whatever you call it. They're using their own magic knowledge, PPE base, &/or access to magic/TW items to push the spell out. Unpowered mooks need not apply. More importantly, the exact mechanism behind the spell (trigger word the caster prefers, hand gesture, etc.) can differ from mage to mage: could be cultural ("Ah, he's obviously from the Ice Islands, their Fire Bolt spells are distinctive"), could be where they were trained ("Hmmm...that particular forking of the fingers for Lightning Bolt with that arm twist, that's a hallmark of the Babbington Institute of Magery...") or who trained them ("Hah! Waving their arms around for Wind Gust like that...she must have studied under Professor McItridge, he was always big on dramatic gestures..."), could even be just the mage's particular preference ("You said he shouted "Fuego!" before torching the ogre with a blast of fire? Damn...that one is Big Trouble, steer clear of him..."). But a ritual...now you're talking about something where the steps are extremely rigid, almost certainly spelled out in a particular tome, probably banned on several planets & in multiple dimensions. Think the Necronomicon from Evil Dead, or the Book of Life/Book of the Dead from The Mummy. And when I say the steps are meticulously written down, I mean that while they might be written down in some ancient or esoteric language, they're written in such a way that any idiot who manages to read the words & follow the ritual's steps to the letter can cast the spell (provided enough PPE is provided), even if they're not a mage. Again, just like in Evil Dead or The Mummy, where simply reading the ancient Sumerian or Egyptian activated the spell (even though the readers not only didn't know what would happen, they didn't even believe that magic worked).

That last one is where you get all sorts of cults for your BTS1/2, Nightbane, or even Rifts campaign setting. Some idiot finds an ancient tome long thought to be lost, they (or someone they hire/threaten) translates it, & then they follow the ritual. Presto...some ancient eldritch horror is now walking the Earth again, or they managed to cast some Spell of Legend (although it sucked the souls of half the cultists to do so), or they're discovered by a mage lacking in any scruples who decides to take advantage of said tome.

[thorr-kan]

What I would like, especially for BTS and Heroes but also for all other games, is a way for non-mages to cast rituals like you see on shows like Buffy and Supernatural. I do this with scrolls now but it would be better if there was a set system for this.

There was a post about this on one of the Palladium FB pages years ago that gave playtest rules for this. Alternatively, the d20 incantation rules in d20 Modern, D&D 3E's Unearthed Arcana, or Pathfinder RPG, would be a good fit.

Or judicious use of the variant rules in the Through the Glass Darkly from Nightbane. The Principles of Magic special skill lets you cast spells, the Sorcerous Proficiencies can grant your spells. A small sacrifice of skills for the ability to do a bit of magic.

I'm not a huge fan of Glass Darkly but there are a few things to use there. I think the main reason I don't do it is that the magic system is fairly fragile and like I said earlier we don't have great definitions of what a ritual is vs an incantation. Also, I have rarely needed this in RIfts as there is almost always a mage in the group and really it just fits BtS and my dark version of HU/NB.

What I envisioned was a way for ordinary people to do rituals like protection circles, tracking spells, maybe even open a rift like you see in shows like Supernatural or even Buffy. To balance things out I planned to require non-mages to have components or even artifacts that an actual spellcaster wouldn't need. This would be a lot of work for a house rule so I never did much with it. The most of what I did list a few things for a couple of spells like portal to the Nightlands and such.

I think a system like this would work for most PB games but like I said especially for BtS, NB, and HU.

Having just rediscovered the cultists description in BtS1, it is possible something could be standardized from that.

[thorr-kan]

I'm not a huge fan of Glass Darkly...

How can you not love TtGD? It and Mysteries of Magic are master-class developments of the Palladium magic system!

Which don't suit everybody's tastes or tables; I get that. And my enthusiasm for them aside, I don't insist not likely them is badwrongfun.

Also, I have rarely needed this in RIfts as there is almost always a mage in the group and really it just fits BtS and my dark version of HU/NB.

It would fit a modern, lower mana world better, I agree. BtS, NB, HU, DR, even TMNT and N&SS/MC.

I think there's design space for a hedge mage and kitchen witch subsytem to fit this need. I also think there's room for a pact magic subsystem that is not a full-on witch or warlock OCC. This would be an excellent model for a fey bargain, someone who keeps the old ways, or a devout but mundane follower of something.

None of the three would be a threat to a real mage. But they would be useful allies to hunters, exorcists, or other adventurers. It could also server as an interesting focus for a PC.

I think this is a discussion that we might take to another thread.