CS and Glitter Boys

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Zer0 Kay
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Re: CS and Glitter Boys

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Sambot wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 6:33 pm
Zer0 Kay wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 8:18 pm
Re: FQ having GB since always... I'll have to go back and read again.
Re: transponder codes... that isn't how they work. The interrogator in one unit sends out signals at 1030MHz requesting data from any transponders in range when a transponder acknowledges it responds at 1090MHz and they start communicate IRL this is how we get flight numbers (Mode A and B) and altitude (Mode C) on radar because a AN/GPN-27 only detects azimuth and range and with change in azimuth and range = speed. The military IFF system uses the same type of setup and the computers talk to each other the people never see anything other than some sort of acknowledgement that the targets transponder has responded as friend meaning the computer has received a code. If it doesn't receive a proper code it is identified as foe if it doesn't respond it is identified as unknown. You'd never see ASHGIWEN. I never claimed it reported if it is stolen who who is piloting/crewing or conditions so stop putting up strawmen. Oh thank gosh it is only possible in Rifts that a person could be under the influence of something, deserting or turned traitor. That'd suck if that could happen in the real world. Well in my game the CS aren't a bunch of morons and have both laser comms and repeaters and buried fiber optics both of which can't be intercepted without them noticing.
Radar is blocked by terrain. Interrogators and transponders are AGAIN radio systems. It isn't the radar that tells the interrogator to do its job the interrogator is always doing its job and normally reaches out to 200 miles the radar is limited to 60. You know what else is blocked by terrain? Uh the mark 1 eyeball that would be used to see the targets and whatever gun your using to target the Glitterboys unless it is artillery but even a missile first has to achieve lock unless it is a dumb rocket being used as artillery so in the case of an artillery unit with IFF but no radar lock depending on how they've updated the system in the Golden Age they'd at a minimum know if the unit is one of theirs, the altitude and "identity", probably callsign like they do now for military flights but for ground units. But if the CS has posted something like TACANs or in Rifts just TACN markers all around their territory the IFF may also give location based on TACN readings.

GBs were used to found FQ and gave rise the the GB Legends.
Again, I still haven't reread but IIRC RMB never claims that so it would have been a FQ or a RUE change.
Sambot wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 6:33 pmIf it doesn't get a response, how's it know there's anything there?
I'm also not putting up strawmen. The radios sending the signals don't know if the one piloting it is a friend or foe, or a friend who's possessed or mind controlled. It also doesn't know if the codes are stolen or not. Just if it's the right code. Presuming it can even transmit and receive from that distance. The local radio stations here go bad when the sun goes down and while I'm in the mountains. If they can be blocked so can other radio signals. Laser Coms are only good if the laser can hit the target. And fiber opics? You're troops are tethered to a ground line? That would keep their communications, mostly, secure but it'd cause havoc with maneuverability. And how's your Mark I Eyeball supposed to know who's inside the GB and if they're on your side or not?
If what doesn't get a response? The radar or the IFF?
You are putting up strawmen the beginning of this line of argument was that a transponder wouldn't help the FQ not get shot at by the CS. Your string of fallacy (well they can't tell if they're possessed, they can't tell if they're defectors, they can't tell if they're REALLY friends or just clicked friends on facebook) has no point to the argument as YES IT DOES HELP since they can't know any of your strawmen with or without the use of a transponder the IFF HELPS by at least cutting the odds down. Sure, it may be mind controlled, it may be a traitor, it may be a defector but at least now the CS wouldn't shoot on sight. Thereby qualifying as helping FQ. Now a different question all together to ask would be why would the CS choose to use IFF because all your strawmen wouldn't be strawmen then HOWEVER, they would still be pointless. Why does the USA use IFF it doesn't tell us if the person is a traitor or a defector or if they liked my tweets. The U.S. uses it because it is better to not shoot down 100s of friendly aircraft because all you can see on a freaking radar is a blip unless the aircraft has IFF/SIF installed and in U.S. airspace it is required that all aircraft have a transponder in controlled flight areas so most aircraft carry two and because all nations adopted for the most part FAA regulations and because most nations fly commercial into the U.S. they all adopted the FAAs rules so we have aircraft giving civilian information all over the place and some places the transponders are asked for additional information and if they respond properly they're friendly if they respond incorrectly their enemies and if they just send the civilian stuff they get approached and escorted. IFF is used so your not killing everything it doesn't stop problems that may occur on the aircraft.


Sambot wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 6:33 pm
Zer0 Kay wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 8:28 pm Triax can sell products in NA because of their high altitude super sonic transports that japan doesn't have and not knowing what is going on beyond they're borders and the demon sea why would they develop an SSC to check? Because they're full to the brim with funds and have tons of leisure time? SRR would have to go over all those hostile kingdoms, again... not likely. Everyone is busy in their little spheres of influence... intentionally.

BS per Japan Chromium can be painted over it just looses its resistance until the paint is gone but its superior MDC to weight ratio would outweigh the loss of the resistance and be excellent for light combat robots.
Agree on Titan Robotics but then your claiming that the CS and FQ would be looking out for Chromium when they apparently don't care about "wild" GBs in your world so why would they care about Titan Robotics using Chromium?
True, Japan and the SRR have their own issued but the CS has travelled the world. They could pick up their orders. And it isn't like there aren't ships and shipping companies that could be hired to do the job. Pirates need someone to attack and Mercs need something to guard.
Where does it say the CS has traveled the world? They've only gone to Germany, over the Atlantic. I don't have to prove that they've only gone where the book says they have you have to prove they have gone where the book doesn't say they have.
Sambot wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 6:33 pm Who said anything about paint?
Titan Robotics using Chromium, that had been limited to GBs, would draw attention. It screams either, "WE FOUND LOST SECRETS!" or "WE STOLE FREE QUEBECK'S SECRETS!". Either way, they're screaming, "WE CAN MAKE GLITTER BOYS!" I don't think Archie-3 wants that kind of attention to his enterprises.
You said "It wouldn't fit with Shemarians" the only reason it couldn't "fit" would be its appearance, painting over it makes it so that isn't even a point. And in the case of the Shemarrians it doesn't freaking matter because the closest tidbit they'd get out of it was that the Shemarrians are NEMA tech and the worst would be that Chromium is alien tech brought by the Shemarrians. Shemarrians + Chromium = doesn't matter. You are correct with Titan and I didn't mean to infer Titan I was talking about Shemarrians as combat robots. I keep forgetting that Mecha aren't Mecha in Rifts they're giant robots.
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ShadowLogan
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Re: CS and Glitter Boys

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Zer0 Kay wrote:3. MMMM IDK if that is really how it was happening ARCHIE would station robots around access areas and you can't claim that all the robots go down at the same time otherwise the enemies of the Shemarrians would have taken them out already. "What they doing?" "I don't know there just kinda standing there." "Okay it's probably a trap lets not fall for it and come back later when they're looking for us." I've always thought the Republican's are both located within and have access to a part of ARCHIE that is off line from the rest of the network and their part has the capability to build Glitterboys and they have been the source not ARCHIE of GBs in NA that aren't from FQ. They're in a section that was either removed from ARCHIE's memory or was presumed destroyed by ARCHIE and so was severed from memory to manage resources.
I agree Archie guard units likely aren't going to go into sleep mode at the same time as him, it wouldn't make sense. What we do know is that the Republicans are able to breach Archie's security when he is in "sleep mode" and utilize his manufacturing base. We also know the Republicans have Access Codes to Archie, which could be extensive (and for whatever reason those codes aren't changed regularly). We also know that when the Republicans manufacture anything using Archie's manufacturing base they pull from his raw material supplies in storage. All of which makes the Republicans very dependent on Archie for their manufacturing base (ShemNation toys with the idea Archie might move his HQ in MD to a new facility in PA, which might also complicate Republican plans).
Zer0 Kay wrote:4. No you haven't. You've done an MDC to weight ratio. We don't know the mass of most things in the game... pretty sure anything. Also can't include Pixies or most MDC creatures as most MDC creatures are magic in nature so their MDC is magic not physical and now we're arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin... it doesn't freaking matter it isn't comparable to the amount of damage chobam armor can take per inch. The freaking pixie isn't not only an apple your comparing broccoli that tastes like ice cream to apples. So magic creature to magic creature, non-magic creature to non magic creature, body armor to body armor, PA to PA, vehicles to vehicles.
As far as creatures go, they were problematic in a variety of ways. Where the tech had clear patterns, the creature inventory was all over the place (if there was a pattern it wasn't as obvious here, or at least as far as how I entered the data). And that was evaluating all creatures by the same metric, which ignores level/age advancement and randomized nature of the die rolls.

No, it was an MDC to Mass Ratio, I still have the data set and can confirm the entries used the "kg" measurement system (which is used for Mass). Palladium appears to treat mass/weight as synonymous, even though they aren't. However, we can convert any US Measurement system into Metric (~2.2lbs = 1kg). I will add I only used items that actually had useable figures here, so if it was one of those items that lacked a weight/mass figure it was omitted (and there are examples that didn't make the cut as I recall), still even with an incomplete PB library I was still able to generate a data set with 2390 entries (489 of which are creatures, there is some additional magic gear in there to but not easily accounted for).
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Re: CS and Glitter Boys

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

ShadowLogan wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:28 am
Zer0 Kay wrote:3. MMMM IDK if that is really how it was happening ARCHIE would station robots around access areas and you can't claim that all the robots go down at the same time otherwise the enemies of the Shemarrians would have taken them out already. "What they doing?" "I don't know there just kinda standing there." "Okay it's probably a trap lets not fall for it and come back later when they're looking for us." I've always thought the Republican's are both located within and have access to a part of ARCHIE that is off line from the rest of the network and their part has the capability to build Glitterboys and they have been the source not ARCHIE of GBs in NA that aren't from FQ. They're in a section that was either removed from ARCHIE's memory or was presumed destroyed by ARCHIE and so was severed from memory to manage resources.
I agree Archie guard units likely aren't going to go into sleep mode at the same time as him, it wouldn't make sense. What we do know is that the Republicans are able to breach Archie's security when he is in "sleep mode" and utilize his manufacturing base. We also know the Republicans have Access Codes to Archie, which could be extensive (and for whatever reason those codes aren't changed regularly). We also know that when the Republicans manufacture anything using Archie's manufacturing base they pull from his raw material supplies in storage. All of which makes the Republicans very dependent on Archie for their manufacturing base (ShemNation toys with the idea Archie might move his HQ in MD to a new facility in PA, which might also complicate Republican plans).
Zer0 Kay wrote:4. No you haven't. You've done an MDC to weight ratio. We don't know the mass of most things in the game... pretty sure anything. Also can't include Pixies or most MDC creatures as most MDC creatures are magic in nature so their MDC is magic not physical and now we're arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin... it doesn't freaking matter it isn't comparable to the amount of damage chobam armor can take per inch. The freaking pixie isn't not only an apple your comparing broccoli that tastes like ice cream to apples. So magic creature to magic creature, non-magic creature to non magic creature, body armor to body armor, PA to PA, vehicles to vehicles.
As far as creatures go, they were problematic in a variety of ways. Where the tech had clear patterns, the creature inventory was all over the place (if there was a pattern it wasn't as obvious here, or at least as far as how I entered the data). And that was evaluating all creatures by the same metric, which ignores level/age advancement and randomized nature of the die rolls.

No, it was an MDC to Mass Ratio, I still have the data set and can confirm the entries used the "kg" measurement system (which is used for Mass). Palladium appears to treat mass/weight as synonymous, even though they aren't. However, we can convert any US Measurement system into Metric (~2.2lbs = 1kg). I will add I only used items that actually had useable figures here, so if it was one of those items that lacked a weight/mass figure it was omitted (and there are examples that didn't make the cut as I recall), still even with an incomplete PB library I was still able to generate a data set with 2390 entries (489 of which are creatures, there is some additional magic gear in there to but not easily accounted for).
Most people treat mass/weight as synonymous. Major point being that though we can be pretty sure that a vest is mostly armor we can't apply the same to PA which will have a lot more inner working which won't count toward the armor the GB more so and tanks and giant robots even more so. So while you've been P/m for everything the only thing that is close for is the body armor as PA would be P/m-(sensors, electronics, padding, power supply, weapons, ammunition, exoskeleton, etc.) and tanks and giant robots would be P/m-(sensors, electronics, padding, seating, power supply, weaopns, ammunition, motivators, etc.) so absolutely not a fair comparison when comparing the tangerine, orange and ugly fruit they're all oranges ("protective" gear) but all very different. As for the creatures... the magic ones at least, its all about their density of midichlorians... :-D :thwak:
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ShadowLogan
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Re: CS and Glitter Boys

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Zer0 Kay wrote:Most people treat mass/weight as synonymous. Major point being that though we can be pretty sure that a vest is mostly armor we can't apply the same to PA which will have a lot more inner working which won't count toward the armor the GB more so and tanks and giant robots even more so. So while you've been P/m for everything the only thing that is close for is the body armor as PA would be P/m-(sensors, electronics, padding, power supply, weapons, ammunition, exoskeleton, etc.) and tanks and giant robots would be P/m-(sensors, electronics, padding, seating, power supply, weaopns, ammunition, motivators, etc.) so absolutely not a fair comparison when comparing the tangerine, orange and ugly fruit they're all oranges ("protective" gear) but all
Mass/Weight can be used that way though there are cavets to that.

As for "mostly armor". I know what you are getting at, but the various working components of X also contribute to the "MDC" (or SDC) of an item even if it isn't "armor" per say. Or put another way, it's likely a mistake to think of "MDC" (or even SDC) as just "armor", it really is measuring the overall "health" of an item (this is because as you take damage for a machine, you can have systems that shut down like say a targeting system or to use KS's shoot a door with an gun the damage doesn't deplete the door's SDC but ignore the holes in the door).
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Re: CS and Glitter Boys

Unread post by Sambot »

Zer0 Kay wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 11:03 pm
Sambot wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 6:33 pm
Zer0 Kay wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 8:18 pm
Re: FQ having GB since always... I'll have to go back and read again.
Re: transponder codes... that isn't how they work. The interrogator in one unit sends out signals at 1030MHz requesting data from any transponders in range when a transponder acknowledges it responds at 1090MHz and they start communicate IRL this is how we get flight numbers (Mode A and B) and altitude (Mode C) on radar because a AN/GPN-27 only detects azimuth and range and with change in azimuth and range = speed. The military IFF system uses the same type of setup and the computers talk to each other the people never see anything other than some sort of acknowledgement that the targets transponder has responded as friend meaning the computer has received a code. If it doesn't receive a proper code it is identified as foe if it doesn't respond it is identified as unknown. You'd never see ASHGIWEN. I never claimed it reported if it is stolen who who is piloting/crewing or conditions so stop putting up strawmen. Oh thank gosh it is only possible in Rifts that a person could be under the influence of something, deserting or turned traitor. That'd suck if that could happen in the real world. Well in my game the CS aren't a bunch of morons and have both laser comms and repeaters and buried fiber optics both of which can't be intercepted without them noticing.
Radar is blocked by terrain. Interrogators and transponders are AGAIN radio systems. It isn't the radar that tells the interrogator to do its job the interrogator is always doing its job and normally reaches out to 200 miles the radar is limited to 60. You know what else is blocked by terrain? Uh the mark 1 eyeball that would be used to see the targets and whatever gun your using to target the Glitterboys unless it is artillery but even a missile first has to achieve lock unless it is a dumb rocket being used as artillery so in the case of an artillery unit with IFF but no radar lock depending on how they've updated the system in the Golden Age they'd at a minimum know if the unit is one of theirs, the altitude and "identity", probably callsign like they do now for military flights but for ground units. But if the CS has posted something like TACANs or in Rifts just TACN markers all around their territory the IFF may also give location based on TACN readings.

GBs were used to found FQ and gave rise the the GB Legends.
Again, I still haven't reread but IIRC RMB never claims that so it would have been a FQ or a RUE change.
So? Even with RMB GBs have been around long enough to become legendary for defending people from monsters and bandits. It would be a public relations nightmare for the CS to hunt down GBs. It'd also put more burden on their troops. If independents are willing to hunt down and defend civilians against monsters and bandits, let them. Why waist troops to take them out do do the job their already doing?

Sambot wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 6:33 pmIf it doesn't get a response, how's it know there's anything there?
I'm also not putting up strawmen. The radios sending the signals don't know if the one piloting it is a friend or foe, or a friend who's possessed or mind controlled. It also doesn't know if the codes are stolen or not. Just if it's the right code. Presuming it can even transmit and receive from that distance. The local radio stations here go bad when the sun goes down and while I'm in the mountains. If they can be blocked so can other radio signals. Laser Coms are only good if the laser can hit the target. And fiber opics? You're troops are tethered to a ground line? That would keep their communications, mostly, secure but it'd cause havoc with maneuverability. And how's your Mark I Eyeball supposed to know who's inside the GB and if they're on your side or not?
If what doesn't get a response? The radar or the IFF?
You are putting up strawmen the beginning of this line of argument was that a transponder wouldn't help the FQ not get shot at by the CS. Your string of fallacy (well they can't tell if they're possessed, they can't tell if they're defectors, they can't tell if they're REALLY friends or just clicked friends on facebook) has no point to the argument as YES IT DOES HELP since they can't know any of your strawmen with or without the use of a transponder the IFF HELPS by at least cutting the odds down. Sure, it may be mind controlled, it may be a traitor, it may be a defector but at least now the CS wouldn't shoot on sight. Thereby qualifying as helping FQ. Now a different question all together to ask would be why would the CS choose to use IFF because all your strawmen wouldn't be strawmen then HOWEVER, they would still be pointless. Why does the USA use IFF it doesn't tell us if the person is a traitor or a defector or if they liked my tweets. The U.S. uses it because it is better to not shoot down 100s of friendly aircraft because all you can see on a freaking radar is a blip unless the aircraft has IFF/SIF installed and in U.S. airspace it is required that all aircraft have a transponder in controlled flight areas so most aircraft carry two and because all nations adopted for the most part FAA regulations and because most nations fly commercial into the U.S. they all adopted the FAAs rules so we have aircraft giving civilian information all over the place and some places the transponders are asked for additional information and if they respond properly they're friendly if they respond incorrectly their enemies and if they just send the civilian stuff they get approached and escorted. IFF is used so your not killing everything it doesn't stop problems that may occur on the aircraft.
If you can't tell if the pilot or crew is friend or foe, IFF doesn't work for you. In fact it works against you. And even if Rifts nations had the same agreement, there's the Black Market which can pretty much sell anything. It would not be long before FQ IFF codes are being sold by them. FQ may even sell them just to confuse the CS.



Sambot wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 6:33 pm
Zer0 Kay wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 8:28 pm Triax can sell products in NA because of their high altitude super sonic transports that japan doesn't have and not knowing what is going on beyond they're borders and the demon sea why would they develop an SSC to check? Because they're full to the brim with funds and have tons of leisure time? SRR would have to go over all those hostile kingdoms, again... not likely. Everyone is busy in their little spheres of influence... intentionally.

BS per Japan Chromium can be painted over it just looses its resistance until the paint is gone but its superior MDC to weight ratio would outweigh the loss of the resistance and be excellent for light combat robots.
Agree on Titan Robotics but then your claiming that the CS and FQ would be looking out for Chromium when they apparently don't care about "wild" GBs in your world so why would they care about Titan Robotics using Chromium?
True, Japan and the SRR have their own issued but the CS has travelled the world. They could pick up their orders. And it isn't like there aren't ships and shipping companies that could be hired to do the job. Pirates need someone to attack and Mercs need something to guard.
Where does it say the CS has traveled the world? They've only gone to Germany, over the Atlantic. I don't have to prove that they've only gone where the book says they have you have to prove they have gone where the book doesn't say they have.
Actually, the Coalition States is conducting anti-vampire operations in Mexico (SB1 and others), has an embassies in Columbia, opened negotiations with Cordoba and explored other countries in South America. (South America 1 and 2), they've visited Poland (ST7 Aftermath), have sent a diplomatic envoy to the Sovietski (WB36), and has sent explorers to Antarctica (Rifts Antarctica RAW). So no, the Coalition States has traveled widely around the world.

Sambot wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 6:33 pm Who said anything about paint?
Titan Robotics using Chromium, that had been limited to GBs, would draw attention. It screams either, "WE FOUND LOST SECRETS!" or "WE STOLE FREE QUEBECK'S SECRETS!". Either way, they're screaming, "WE CAN MAKE GLITTER BOYS!" I don't think Archie-3 wants that kind of attention to his enterprises.
You said "It wouldn't fit with Shemarians" the only reason it couldn't "fit" would be its appearance, painting over it makes it so that isn't even a point. And in the case of the Shemarrians it doesn't freaking matter because the closest tidbit they'd get out of it was that the Shemarrians are NEMA tech and the worst would be that Chromium is alien tech brought by the Shemarrians. Shemarrians + Chromium = doesn't matter. You are correct with Titan and I didn't mean to infer Titan I was talking about Shemarrians as combat robots. I keep forgetting that Mecha aren't Mecha in Rifts they're giant robots.
Paint doesn't last long in the wilderness or in combat. They know Chromium was developed on Earth before the Rifts. Aliens using pre-rifts Earth Tech, is going to get people's attention. An Alien power producing Earth pre-refits Earth Tech? The CS isn't going to stand for that. FQ probably won't either. That would cause the CS to hunt down the Shemarians and search for their factory. I really don't think Archie-3 wants that as their search could lead them to finding him.
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Re: CS and Glitter Boys

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Sambot wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 11:02 pm
Zer0 Kay wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 11:03 pm
Sambot wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 6:33 pm
Zer0 Kay wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 8:18 pm
Re: FQ having GB since always... I'll have to go back and read again.
Re: transponder codes... that isn't how they work. The interrogator in one unit sends out signals at 1030MHz requesting data from any transponders in range when a transponder acknowledges it responds at 1090MHz and they start communicate IRL this is how we get flight numbers (Mode A and B) and altitude (Mode C) on radar because a AN/GPN-27 only detects azimuth and range and with change in azimuth and range = speed. The military IFF system uses the same type of setup and the computers talk to each other the people never see anything other than some sort of acknowledgement that the targets transponder has responded as friend meaning the computer has received a code. If it doesn't receive a proper code it is identified as foe if it doesn't respond it is identified as unknown. You'd never see ASHGIWEN. I never claimed it reported if it is stolen who who is piloting/crewing or conditions so stop putting up strawmen. Oh thank gosh it is only possible in Rifts that a person could be under the influence of something, deserting or turned traitor. That'd suck if that could happen in the real world. Well in my game the CS aren't a bunch of morons and have both laser comms and repeaters and buried fiber optics both of which can't be intercepted without them noticing.
Radar is blocked by terrain. Interrogators and transponders are AGAIN radio systems. It isn't the radar that tells the interrogator to do its job the interrogator is always doing its job and normally reaches out to 200 miles the radar is limited to 60. You know what else is blocked by terrain? Uh the mark 1 eyeball that would be used to see the targets and whatever gun your using to target the Glitterboys unless it is artillery but even a missile first has to achieve lock unless it is a dumb rocket being used as artillery so in the case of an artillery unit with IFF but no radar lock depending on how they've updated the system in the Golden Age they'd at a minimum know if the unit is one of theirs, the altitude and "identity", probably callsign like they do now for military flights but for ground units. But if the CS has posted something like TACANs or in Rifts just TACN markers all around their territory the IFF may also give location based on TACN readings.

GBs were used to found FQ and gave rise the the GB Legends.
Again, I still haven't reread but IIRC RMB never claims that so it would have been a FQ or a RUE change.
1.So? Even with RMB GBs have been around long enough to become legendary for defending people from monsters and bandits. It would be a public relations nightmare for the CS to hunt down GBs. It'd also put more burden on their troops. If independents are willing to hunt down and defend civilians against monsters and bandits, let them. Why waist troops to take them out do do the job their already doing?

Sambot wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 6:33 pmIf it doesn't get a response, how's it know there's anything there?
I'm also not putting up strawmen. The radios sending the signals don't know if the one piloting it is a friend or foe, or a friend who's possessed or mind controlled. It also doesn't know if the codes are stolen or not. Just if it's the right code. Presuming it can even transmit and receive from that distance. The local radio stations here go bad when the sun goes down and while I'm in the mountains. If they can be blocked so can other radio signals. Laser Coms are only good if the laser can hit the target. And fiber opics? You're troops are tethered to a ground line? That would keep their communications, mostly, secure but it'd cause havoc with maneuverability. And how's your Mark I Eyeball supposed to know who's inside the GB and if they're on your side or not?
If what doesn't get a response? The radar or the IFF?
You are putting up strawmen the beginning of this line of argument was that a transponder wouldn't help the FQ not get shot at by the CS. Your string of fallacy (well they can't tell if they're possessed, they can't tell if they're defectors, they can't tell if they're REALLY friends or just clicked friends on facebook) has no point to the argument as YES IT DOES HELP since they can't know any of your strawmen with or without the use of a transponder the IFF HELPS by at least cutting the odds down. Sure, it may be mind controlled, it may be a traitor, it may be a defector but at least now the CS wouldn't shoot on sight. Thereby qualifying as helping FQ. Now a different question all together to ask would be why would the CS choose to use IFF because all your strawmen wouldn't be strawmen then HOWEVER, they would still be pointless. Why does the USA use IFF it doesn't tell us if the person is a traitor or a defector or if they liked my tweets. The U.S. uses it because it is better to not shoot down 100s of friendly aircraft because all you can see on a freaking radar is a blip unless the aircraft has IFF/SIF installed and in U.S. airspace it is required that all aircraft have a transponder in controlled flight areas so most aircraft carry two and because all nations adopted for the most part FAA regulations and because most nations fly commercial into the U.S. they all adopted the FAAs rules so we have aircraft giving civilian information all over the place and some places the transponders are asked for additional information and if they respond properly they're friendly if they respond incorrectly their enemies and if they just send the civilian stuff they get approached and escorted. IFF is used so your not killing everything it doesn't stop problems that may occur on the aircraft.
2.If you can't tell if the pilot or crew is friend or foe, IFF doesn't work for you. In fact it works against you. And even if Rifts nations had the same agreement, there's the Black Market which can pretty much sell anything. It would not be long before FQ IFF codes are being sold by them. FQ may even sell them just to confuse the CS.



Sambot wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 6:33 pm
Zer0 Kay wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 8:28 pm Triax can sell products in NA because of their high altitude super sonic transports that japan doesn't have and not knowing what is going on beyond they're borders and the demon sea why would they develop an SSC to check? Because they're full to the brim with funds and have tons of leisure time? SRR would have to go over all those hostile kingdoms, again... not likely. Everyone is busy in their little spheres of influence... intentionally.

BS per Japan Chromium can be painted over it just looses its resistance until the paint is gone but its superior MDC to weight ratio would outweigh the loss of the resistance and be excellent for light combat robots.
Agree on Titan Robotics but then your claiming that the CS and FQ would be looking out for Chromium when they apparently don't care about "wild" GBs in your world so why would they care about Titan Robotics using Chromium?
True, Japan and the SRR have their own issued but the CS has travelled the world. They could pick up their orders. And it isn't like there aren't ships and shipping companies that could be hired to do the job. Pirates need someone to attack and Mercs need something to guard.
Where does it say the CS has traveled the world? They've only gone to Germany, over the Atlantic. I don't have to prove that they've only gone where the book says they have you have to prove they have gone where the book doesn't say they have.
3.Actually, the Coalition States is conducting anti-vampire operations in Mexico (SB1 and others), has an embassies in Columbia, opened negotiations with Cordoba and explored other countries in South America. (South America 1 and 2), they've visited Poland (ST7 Aftermath), have sent a diplomatic envoy to the Sovietski (WB36), and has sent explorers to Antarctica (Rifts Antarctica RAW). So no, the Coalition States has traveled widely around the world.
Sambot wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 6:33 pm Who said anything about paint?
Titan Robotics using Chromium, that had been limited to GBs, would draw attention. It screams either, "WE FOUND LOST SECRETS!" or "WE STOLE FREE QUEBECK'S SECRETS!". Either way, they're screaming, "WE CAN MAKE GLITTER BOYS!" I don't think Archie-3 wants that kind of attention to his enterprises.
You said "It wouldn't fit with Shemarians" the only reason it couldn't "fit" would be its appearance, painting over it makes it so that isn't even a point. And in the case of the Shemarrians it doesn't freaking matter because the closest tidbit they'd get out of it was that the Shemarrians are NEMA tech and the worst would be that Chromium is alien tech brought by the Shemarrians. Shemarrians + Chromium = doesn't matter. You are correct with Titan and I didn't mean to infer Titan I was talking about Shemarrians as combat robots. I keep forgetting that Mecha aren't Mecha in Rifts they're giant robots.
4.Paint doesn't last long in the wilderness or in combat. They know Chromium was developed on Earth before the Rifts. Aliens using pre-rifts Earth Tech, is going to get people's attention. An Alien power producing Earth pre-refits Earth Tech? The CS isn't going to stand for that. FQ probably won't either. That would cause the CS to hunt down the Shemarians and search for their factory. I really don't think Archie-3 wants that as their search could lead them to finding him.
1. So what if GBs have become a legend and shown that they save people so have mages and cyberknights and angels and dragons and Rogue Scientists and Rogue Scholars and Unicorns but they're all labeled enemies of the state. When the CS is on the list of those bad things that Glitterboys have saved people from...

2. Dang so your saying IRL that the civilized worlds military should stop using IFF because we can't tell if a pilot is a traitor, deserter or theif. :nh: So what your saying is the CS doesn't shoot at anyone because they can't identify if they're friend or Foe or do they shoot everyone because they can't identify who is friend or foe? Whats the alternative? Because talking to someone over radio doesn't tell you any of those things either. What do they use a password and if it wasn't given out that day then they know the person wasn't in the group that morning so is an enemy? That is what IFF does except electronically. Codes are changed frequently. The black market could sell them all they want but unless it is within the cycle period it is going to be useless. That is why they're encrypted and secured. It would be less work for the BM to steal verbal passwords. It isn't as simple as grabbing a book and reading the codes or getting a transceiver and downloading the data or listening in to an exchange between two transceivers.

3. Hmm. Thanks for the citations. That was nice. So in the Antarctica RAW does it tell the story of their trip or does it say it is a report back to Chi-Town? 'Cuz if the info never got back... well, reports or it didn't happen :D I can't say anything to contradict the ongoing campaign or the embassy, except they probably don't have "embassies" in Columbia just an embassy. But the exploration and the sending of a diplomatic envoy also doesn't count unless return word is received by the CS until then SA is unexplored and AFAYK that diplomatic envoy was slaughtered by Gargoyles... never mind that they wouldn't be friendly with the magic wielding Polskies and probably ended up getting turned into gold.

4. I'm suprised Rifts doesn't have MD paint. A single MD no matter how large the area painted is or how many layer BUT it makes it completely immune to wear and tear. Or Nanite Paint instead of pigment it is nanites with RGB pixels repairs scratches AND you can program complex paintjobs with the app which automaps whatever you put the "paint" on. So you can have an accurate computer model to paint with. Admitted straw man --> Chromium is an element with an atomic weight of 24, they didn't invent anything. Now back to our regular programming. Yeah and until they discover it's chromium they have absolutely no reason to hunt them down. :roll: How are they going to tell it is chromium without a body? They don't have bodies or they'd know they weren't cyborgs. They don't have bodies or they'd know they were made on Earth. They don't have bodies or they'd already be looking for ARCHIE. No bodies no way to tell even if they walked around in gleaming chromium it is just another shiny metal. Or do they consider all shiny metal chromium? Is it the 1/2 damage from lasers? Would they then consider everything that takes 1/2 damage from lasers chromium? OR are you suggesting that they have ranged spectrometers? Are you going to suggest the vf laser rifles are spectrometers? You think the CS would go after hostile Shemarians they think may be made of Chromium but they're not going to go after non-FQ legacy GB and find out where they're getting their stash from? That would just be a stakeout situation which would be a lot safer for the CS and more dangerous for ARCHIE. So if ARCHIE isn't going to make Shemarrians, who have from their inception avoided capture not just from the CS but from Atlantis, and every other force that encroaches their territory then he also wouldn't provide and supply GBs because simply staking out their caches would guide the CS back to the source. Your arguement makes ARCHIE Omnipotent in one case and Idiotic in another both dealing with the same material.
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Re: CS and Glitter Boys

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ShadowLogan wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 10:44 am
Zer0 Kay wrote:Most people treat mass/weight as synonymous. Major point being that though we can be pretty sure that a vest is mostly armor we can't apply the same to PA which will have a lot more inner working which won't count toward the armor the GB more so and tanks and giant robots even more so. So while you've been P/m for everything the only thing that is close for is the body armor as PA would be P/m-(sensors, electronics, padding, power supply, weapons, ammunition, exoskeleton, etc.) and tanks and giant robots would be P/m-(sensors, electronics, padding, seating, power supply, weaopns, ammunition, motivators, etc.) so absolutely not a fair comparison when comparing the tangerine, orange and ugly fruit they're all oranges ("protective" gear) but all
Mass/Weight can be used that way though there are cavets to that.

As for "mostly armor". I know what you are getting at, but the various working components of X also contribute to the "MDC" (or SDC) of an item even if it isn't "armor" per say. Or put another way, it's likely a mistake to think of "MDC" (or even SDC) as just "armor", it really is measuring the overall "health" of an item (this is because as you take damage for a machine, you can have systems that shut down like say a targeting system or to use KS's shoot a door with an gun the damage doesn't deplete the door's SDC but ignore the holes in the door).
I throw down the BS flag on that. There is a lot of stuff in the armor that doesn't contribute to the MDC. The SDC foam doesn't contribute to MDC, wires likely aren't MDC nor is hydraulic fluid. Now is MOST of the mass from MDC contributing material... probably, but when the weight of the foam and hydraulic fluid and wires alone is the same as several suits of plastic man armor... it throws off those stats. 5 yard penalty.
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Re: CS and Glitter Boys

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I have to disagree on the subcomponents. Officially SDC and MDC have a ratio (100 SDC/HP = 1MD). You'd also have to prove that those components cannot be rated at MDC levels (Megaversally there are MDC examples of wire/cables, non-magic "fabrics", and even foam). You'd also have to show that fluids cannot be rated at MDC levels (put enough water between yourself in nothing but a swimsuit and a projectile shooter out in the air, and the water would protect you even from a C-40R "rail gun" as the projectiles are stopped by the water).

There is also the "fudging" Palladium does with their game mechanic numbers (damage output, damage soak, bonuses to action, etc) to make things more viable as concepts that entered the system after the first couple of MDC books (1E RT #1-3, with Rifts modeling more after Book 4/5 in power level options from 1E RT as the standard which carried over into other non-licensed MDC lines IINM, the M2 license followed #1-3 more).
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Re: CS and Glitter Boys

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Zer0 Kay wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2023 1:10 am 1. So what if GBs have become a legend and shown that they save people so have mages and cyberknights and angels and dragons and Rogue Scientists and Rogue Scholars and Unicorns but they're all labeled enemies of the state. When the CS is on the list of those bad things that Glitterboys have saved people from...
It wasn't an army of GBs that tried to take over the CS. It was Mages. Cyberknights work against the CS, so the CS is going to see them as enemies. Some troopers see them as heroes though. Angels and Dragons are evil D-Bees. Rogue Scientists and Rogue Scholars also work against the CS and earn enemy status. However, not every Scientist or Scholar is hunted down. Just those trying to undermine the CS. The CS does have Scientsts and Scholars on their payroll as do other nations.

GBs are pre-rifts power armor piloted by Humans and while I'm sure there were bad GB pilots, there were enough good ones that GBs became legendary defenders of Humanity. To attack them on sight would be counter to CS propaganda as saviors of Humanity. They will of course eliminate any GB that attacks them.
The reason CS wanted FQ to stop making them was because the CS wanted unified forces and for FQ to be dependent on them, not because they hated GBs. At the time GB's didn't fit in with Prosek's plans. However, if the CS could produce them, I'm sure they would, with a Death's Head motif.



2. Dang so your saying IRL that the civilized worlds military should stop using IFF because we can't tell if a pilot is a traitor, deserter or theif. :nh: So what your saying is the CS doesn't shoot at anyone because they can't identify if they're friend or Foe or do they shoot everyone because they can't identify who is friend or foe? Whats the alternative? Because talking to someone over radio doesn't tell you any of those things either. What do they use a password and if it wasn't given out that day then they know the person wasn't in the group that morning so is an enemy? That is what IFF does except electronically. Codes are changed frequently. The black market could sell them all they want but unless it is within the cycle period it is going to be useless. That is why they're encrypted and secured. It would be less work for the BM to steal verbal passwords. It isn't as simple as grabbing a book and reading the codes or getting a transceiver and downloading the data or listening in to an exchange between two transceivers.
No, I'm not. I'm saying they don't rely solely on IFF. If a plane does something it isn't supposed to they scramble fighters to intercept and try to determine what's going on before firing. They also don't rely solely on radio communications either. They've learned that lesson after passenger planes were shot down because they weren't on the same frequency. It's only after they exhaust other options and the plane presents a clear danger or makes an aggressive move that they open fire.

If the BM can obtain the IFF Codes and even verbal passwords, they can obtain the encryption.

3. Hmm. Thanks for the citations. That was nice. So in the Antarctica RAW does it tell the story of their trip or does it say it is a report back to Chi-Town? 'Cuz if the info never got back... well, reports or it didn't happen :D I can't say anything to contradict the ongoing campaign or the embassy, except they probably don't have "embassies" in Columbia just an embassy. But the exploration and the sending of a diplomatic envoy also doesn't count unless return word is received by the CS until then SA is unexplored and AFAYK that diplomatic envoy was slaughtered by Gargoyles... never mind that they wouldn't be friendly with the magic wielding Polskies and probably ended up getting turned into gold.
Yes, they made it back and are sending another expedition to open negotiations for trade with the Expedition people. There's enough back and forth to South America that the CS was considering a punitive strike against the dangerous mutant animals in Achilles Republic for their incursions into CS territory. (They keep coming in to free Dog Boys.) The CS sent enough troops to Europe that they boosted the NGR's moral. They also had enough back and forth with Russia to be interested but aren't pursing things currently do to the distance involved.

4. I'm suprised Rifts doesn't have MD paint. A single MD no matter how large the area painted is or how many layer BUT it makes it completely immune to wear and tear. Or Nanite Paint instead of pigment it is nanites with RGB pixels repairs scratches AND you can program complex paintjobs with the app which automaps whatever you put the "paint" on. So you can have an accurate computer model to paint with.
It doesn't surprise me. And with 100SDC=1MD, the paint wouldn't be immune to wear and tear. Just very resistant.

Admitted straw man --> Chromium is an element with an atomic weight of 24, they didn't invent anything. Now back to our regular programming. Yeah and until they discover it's chromium they have absolutely no reason to hunt them down. :roll: How are they going to tell it is chromium without a body? They don't have bodies or they'd know they weren't cyborgs. They don't have bodies or they'd know they were made on Earth. They don't have bodies or they'd already be looking for ARCHIE. No bodies no way to tell even if they walked around in gleaming chromium it is just another shiny metal. Or do they consider all shiny metal chromium? Is it the 1/2 damage from lasers? Would they then consider everything that takes 1/2 damage from lasers chromium? OR are you suggesting that they have ranged spectrometers? Are you going to suggest the vf laser rifles are spectrometers? You think the CS would go after hostile Shemarians they think may be made of Chromium but they're not going to go after non-FQ legacy GB and find out where they're getting their stash from? That would just be a stakeout situation which would be a lot safer for the CS and more dangerous for ARCHIE. So if ARCHIE isn't going to make Shemarrians, who have from their inception avoided capture not just from the CS but from Atlantis, and every other force that encroaches their territory then he also wouldn't provide and supply GBs because simply staking out their caches would guide the CS back to the source. Your arguement makes ARCHIE Omnipotent in one case and Idiotic in another both dealing with the same material.
Individual GBs aren't a threat. It's assumed they were found in a lost depot. However, the CS is looking for a factory in the West to destroy it. Alien cyborgs made with Earth Technology though screams of a factory. The CS doesn't like D-Bees to start, Shemarians using an Earth factory to increase their numbers would be a clear and present threat that the CS wouldn't not ignore. And while the CS hasn't obtained a body, or part, all it would take is a piece left over for CS scientists to analyze. When that happens, the CS would hunt them down as their threat level would increase from deal with eventually to the number 1 or 2. During that hunt ARCHIE 3 could be discovered. It's an unnecessary risk and ARCHIE 3 knows that.
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Re: CS and Glitter Boys

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ShadowLogan wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:02 am I have to disagree on the subcomponents. Officially SDC and MDC have a ratio (100 SDC/HP = 1MD). You'd also have to prove that those components cannot be rated at MDC levels (Megaversally there are MDC examples of wire/cables, non-magic "fabrics", and even foam). You'd also have to show that fluids cannot be rated at MDC levels (put enough water between yourself in nothing but a swimsuit and a projectile shooter out in the air, and the water would protect you even from a C-40R "rail gun" as the projectiles are stopped by the water).

There is also the "fudging" Palladium does with their game mechanic numbers (damage output, damage soak, bonuses to action, etc) to make things more viable as concepts that entered the system after the first couple of MDC books (1E RT #1-3, with Rifts modeling more after Book 4/5 in power level options from 1E RT as the standard which carried over into other non-licensed MDC lines IINM, the M2 license followed #1-3 more).
I'd have to disagree about your disagreement you'd have to show that those components can be rated at MDC levels not in 100s of SDC but actual MDC levels. Your analogy of water is wrong per the rules.

A ultra light MDC tank with 1 MD tank and a VW bug with 101 SDC. If the SDC bug gets shot with 50 SDC of damage it has a lot of holes in it. If the single MDC tank gets shot with 99 SDC worth of damage it isn't damaged (maybe superficially, but KS has said before not a scratch, but he has also said other things which I will get to). Even if that VW bug is instead a battleship with 1,000s of SDC per square meter of hull a 1 damage will cause damage to it and 99 would still be noticeable. Here is where KS has changed his tune. The mother of MDC is Robotech, right? It was described in RT as not receiving any damage from an SDC attack which isn't at least 100 SDC from a single source. Going so far as giving an example of someone with a submachinegun can fire [standard ammunition] at a [MDC] tank all day long and never penetrate its armor. True they have shown fabrics, wires and foam to be MDC. But how many of those are on Earth, how many of those are used by humans? If they're not on Earth it is unlikely they had them before the PA calendar. If humans still don't use them it is unlikely they have them now in the PA. As for water, throwing 100 SDC of water in an area doesn't make it MD or MD class. it makes it equivalent to a single MD. In another book KS used the VW analogy except it was more SDC but the whole thing was basically 1MD is 100-199 SDC so unless you do more than 99 points of damage it won't do anything to an MD structure while if you do 1 MD to a 199 SDC structure it will be destroyed. No amount of SDC will be undamageable by SDC weapons a single point of MD will be indestructible to most SDC weapons. And then KS all G.I. Joed it.

Wait what's M2?
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Re: CS and Glitter Boys

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Sambot wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2023 5:52 pm
Zer0 Kay wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2023 1:10 am 1. So what if GBs have become a legend and shown that they save people so have mages and cyberknights and angels and dragons and Rogue Scientists and Rogue Scholars and Unicorns but they're all labeled enemies of the state. When the CS is on the list of those bad things that Glitterboys have saved people from...
It wasn't an army of GBs that tried to take over the CS. It was Mages. Cyberknights work against the CS, so the CS is going to see them as enemies. Some troopers see them as heroes though. Angels and Dragons are evil D-Bees. Rogue Scientists and Rogue Scholars also work against the CS and earn enemy status. However, not every Scientist or Scholar is hunted down. Just those trying to undermine the CS. The CS does have Scientsts and Scholars on their payroll as do other nations.

GBs are pre-rifts power armor piloted by Humans and while I'm sure there were bad GB pilots, there were enough good ones that GBs became legendary defenders of Humanity. To attack them on sight would be counter to CS propaganda as saviors of Humanity. They will of course eliminate any GB that attacks them.
The reason CS wanted FQ to stop making them was because the CS wanted unified forces and for FQ to be dependent on them, not because they hated GBs. At the time GB's didn't fit in with Prosek's plans. However, if the CS could produce them, I'm sure they would, with a Death's Head motif.
So attacking FQ isn't counter to the CS's claim of protectors of humanity? The CS does a lot of things counter to their propaganda. They can manufacture GBs or rather before their separation they could have when FQ was a part of them. Just like they could purchase them from FQ now. Stating that FQ wouldn't be willing to part with them or share the tech is directly refuted by their trade with the NGR.

2. Dang so your saying IRL that the civilized worlds military should stop using IFF because we can't tell if a pilot is a traitor, deserter or theif. :nh: So what your saying is the CS doesn't shoot at anyone because they can't identify if they're friend or Foe or do they shoot everyone because they can't identify who is friend or foe? Whats the alternative? Because talking to someone over radio doesn't tell you any of those things either. What do they use a password and if it wasn't given out that day then they know the person wasn't in the group that morning so is an enemy? That is what IFF does except electronically. Codes are changed frequently. The black market could sell them all they want but unless it is within the cycle period it is going to be useless. That is why they're encrypted and secured. It would be less work for the BM to steal verbal passwords. It isn't as simple as grabbing a book and reading the codes or getting a transceiver and downloading the data or listening in to an exchange between two transceivers.
No, I'm not. I'm saying they don't rely solely on IFF. If a plane does something it isn't supposed to they scramble fighters to intercept and try to determine what's going on before firing. They also don't rely solely on radio communications either. They've learned that lesson after passenger planes were shot down because they weren't on the same frequency. It's only after they exhaust other options and the plane presents a clear danger or makes an aggressive move that they open fire.
Which one? If your talking about Iran Air flight 655? That wasn't an IFF issue. They were squawking on Mode III instead of mode II neither is actual IFF there is no computer that uses either of those modes to determine friendly or other. Real IFF doesn't start until Mode IV or S where incripted data can be transferred. Until then your not doing anything a standard civilian airlines can do. Your right though if an aircraft is acting weird, even if it is reporting friendly, they'd go up and escort it. The whole point is that if all GBs are fired on on-sight an IFF that uses encrypted, secure codes could be used by the CS and FQ in order to keep the FQ's GBs from being fired on on-sight and at least have CS troops "fly up and escort them in".

3. Hmm. Thanks for the citations. That was nice. So in the Antarctica RAW does it tell the story of their trip or does it say it is a report back to Chi-Town? 'Cuz if the info never got back... well, reports or it didn't happen :D I can't say anything to contradict the ongoing campaign or the embassy, except they probably don't have "embassies" in Columbia just an embassy. But the exploration and the sending of a diplomatic envoy also doesn't count unless return word is received by the CS until then SA is unexplored and AFAYK that diplomatic envoy was slaughtered by Gargoyles... never mind that they wouldn't be friendly with the magic wielding Polskies and probably ended up getting turned into gold.
Yes, they made it back and are sending another expedition to open negotiations for trade with the Expedition people. There's enough back and forth to South America that the CS was considering a punitive strike against the dangerous mutant animals in Achilles Republic for their incursions into CS territory. (They keep coming in to free Dog Boys.) The CS sent enough troops to Europe that they boosted the NGR's moral. They also had enough back and forth with Russia to be interested but aren't pursing things currently do to the distance involved.
K...thank you. Never said the CS wasn't sending troops to the NGR. That is the one place I'd expect them to go since that is where the SST description is from. It doesn't require any back and forth to be interested in something they could have simply heard news of Russia and become interested.

4. I'm suprised Rifts doesn't have MD paint. A single MD no matter how large the area painted is or how many layer BUT it makes it completely immune to wear and tear. Or Nanite Paint instead of pigment it is nanites with RGB pixels repairs scratches AND you can program complex paintjobs with the app which automaps whatever you put the "paint" on. So you can have an accurate computer model to paint with.
It doesn't surprise me. And with 100SDC=1MD, the paint wouldn't be immune to wear and tear. Just very resistant.
That is 100 SD from ONE attack not over time. There is no amount of bumping and rubbing and branches sliding over the material that is going to equal 100 SD from a single "attack". To get 100SD from incidental non-combat contact... well it wouldn't be incidental or non-combat.
Admitted straw man --> Chromium is an element with an atomic weight of 24, they didn't invent anything. Now back to our regular programming. Yeah and until they discover it's chromium they have absolutely no reason to hunt them down. :roll: How are they going to tell it is chromium without a body? They don't have bodies or they'd know they weren't cyborgs. They don't have bodies or they'd know they were made on Earth. They don't have bodies or they'd already be looking for ARCHIE. No bodies no way to tell even if they walked around in gleaming chromium it is just another shiny metal. Or do they consider all shiny metal chromium? Is it the 1/2 damage from lasers? Would they then consider everything that takes 1/2 damage from lasers chromium? OR are you suggesting that they have ranged spectrometers? Are you going to suggest the vf laser rifles are spectrometers? You think the CS would go after hostile Shemarians they think may be made of Chromium but they're not going to go after non-FQ legacy GB and find out where they're getting their stash from? That would just be a stakeout situation which would be a lot safer for the CS and more dangerous for ARCHIE. So if ARCHIE isn't going to make Shemarrians, who have from their inception avoided capture not just from the CS but from Atlantis, and every other force that encroaches their territory then he also wouldn't provide and supply GBs because simply staking out their caches would guide the CS back to the source. Your arguement makes ARCHIE Omnipotent in one case and Idiotic in another both dealing with the same material.
Individual GBs aren't a threat. It's assumed they were found in a lost depot. However, the CS is looking for a factory in the West to destroy it. Alien cyborgs made with Earth Technology though screams of a factory. The CS doesn't like D-Bees to start, Shemarians using an Earth factory to increase their numbers would be a clear and present threat that the CS wouldn't not ignore. And while the CS hasn't obtained a body, or part, all it would take is a piece left over for CS scientists to analyze. When that happens, the CS would hunt them down as their threat level would increase from deal with eventually to the number 1 or 2. During that hunt ARCHIE 3 could be discovered. It's an unnecessary risk and ARCHIE 3 knows that.

But an individual human mage is? An individual human rogue scholar is? An individual human rogue scientists is? An individual D-Bee sympathizer is? You know what else screams factory? An alien cyborg that is still made of Earth Technology even without Chromium. If they're not looking for one now even if they had chromium they aren't going to suddenly start looking for them for any reason that they wouldn't start looking for them because they are human tech. And the same about analyzing the Chromium can be said of whatever they're made of. A bit left over will tell them that the material is terrestrial and they haven't figured that out yet so being made of Chromium still wouldn't matter. Your argument is Chromium would identify them as terrestrial creations and cause the CS to hunt for their creator leading them to ARCHIE. They could be made of iron and nickel and if the CS gets ahold of some scraps they can identify it as being from a terrestrial source thereby causing the CS to hunt for their factory thereby leading them to ARCHIE. So it doesn't matter if they're made of Chromium. If they're not going after the "iron and nickel" then they wouldn't go after the Chromium. If they're going to go after D-Bee robots because they may have found a stash of GBs then they'd go after Individual GBs because they found a stash of GBs. If it has to be a certain number of GBs for them to hunt down a factory then they wouldn't hunt down the Shemarians because they don't know how many Shemarians there are that probably just found a couple GB stashes.
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Re: CS and Glitter Boys

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Zer0 Kay wrote:Wait what's M2?
M2 = Macross 2

AFAIK, Palladium has only acquired x3 licensed properties, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Robotech, and Macross 2. Macross 2 is not part of Robotech proper, and at best could be seen as a distant relative on a "family tree" branching off from the original SDF: Macross (more accurately a branch of a branch).
Zer0 Kay wrote:Your analogy of water is wrong per the rules.
Perhaps, but I wasn't thinking of in terms of the rules but real physics. By the rules I don't think transitional mediums is considered in the rules, but projectile weapons like Rail Guns are known to see their range reduced when fired underwater (there are also generic rules that also establish projectile weapons see reduced range from being fired under water). So yes, even by the rules put enough water between you and a projectile shooter and you'd be safe.
Zer0 Kay wrote:True they have shown fabrics, wires and foam to be MDC. But how many of those are on Earth, how many of those are used by humans? If they're not on Earth it is unlikely they had them before the PA calendar.
Irrelevant if they are used by humans or confined to Earth. When I did the project I was looking at it from a Megaversal POV, which included Rifts, Rifts Dimension Books (Phaseworld), Robotech (1E and 2E), and Macross 2 books that I had in my RPG library (or could borrow) which amounted to a total 64 books (at the time, I have added a few more titles to my library). It also means that non-human/Terran factions are considered. One of the things I set out to see was how consistent PB was in terms of MDC to Mass for similar items (which I noticed with a smaller sample as a result of a RT v Rifts discussion).

It's also worth considering that we don't have an actual sub-component breakdown in terms of durability to answer the question on what is most common. I'm not saying you can't use SDC sub-components in an MDC assembly (there are examples I can point to that establish this), but we do not know how common the practice is (the fact it gets called out in special cases makes me think it isn't common to mix/match).
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Re: CS and Glitter Boys

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

ShadowLogan wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 11:50 am
Zer0 Kay wrote:Wait what's M2?
M2 = Macross 2

AFAIK, Palladium has only acquired x3 licensed properties, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Robotech, and Macross 2. Macross 2 is not part of Robotech proper, and at best could be seen as a distant relative on a "family tree" branching off from the original SDF: Macross (more accurately a branch of a branch).
Zer0 Kay wrote:Your analogy of water is wrong per the rules.
Perhaps, but I wasn't thinking of in terms of the rules but real physics. By the rules I don't think transitional mediums is considered in the rules, but projectile weapons like Rail Guns are known to see their range reduced when fired underwater (there are also generic rules that also establish projectile weapons see reduced range from being fired under water). So yes, even by the rules put enough water between you and a projectile shooter and you'd be safe.
Zer0 Kay wrote:True they have shown fabrics, wires and foam to be MDC. But how many of those are on Earth, how many of those are used by humans? If they're not on Earth it is unlikely they had them before the PA calendar.
Irrelevant if they are used by humans or confined to Earth. When I did the project I was looking at it from a Megaversal POV, which included Rifts, Rifts Dimension Books (Phaseworld), Robotech (1E and 2E), and Macross 2 books that I had in my RPG library (or could borrow) which amounted to a total 64 books (at the time, I have added a few more titles to my library). It also means that non-human/Terran factions are considered. One of the things I set out to see was how consistent PB was in terms of MDC to Mass for similar items (which I noticed with a smaller sample as a result of a RT v Rifts discussion).

It's also worth considering that we don't have an actual sub-component breakdown in terms of durability to answer the question on what is most common. I'm not saying you can't use SDC sub-components in an MDC assembly (there are examples I can point to that establish this), but we do not know how common the practice is (the fact it gets called out in special cases makes me think it isn't common to mix/match).
Ah. I forgot about about M2.

Irrelevant. You say you noticed with RT vs. Rifts but don't say what you noticed. What I noticed between RT and Rifts and accepted as purposeful was that Rifts had more MD to mass but RT had better missiles (all RT missiles being guided, size to damage e.g. LRM fitting 6 to a valkyrie to 1 on a launch platform in the NGR) but then they mucked that up with the CWC missile update especially when combined by retconning missiles in RT with RT2e to Rifts standard in both size and guidance. Now like Rifts, all missiles are rockets unless they're listed to have guidance.

Irrelivant to your study which are full of self imposed assumptions making your study irrelevant for universal use.
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Re: CS and Glitter Boys

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Coalition States in Rifts tends to view Glitter Boys with a combination of admiration and wariness. While recognizing their prowess as defenders, the CS may respond with caution, attempts at recruitment, or even hostility, depending on the perceived threat to CS authority.
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Re: CS and Glitter Boys

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I know M2 is easy to forget about, few topics in the forums on it even in the past though I thought the context would have made it clear.

The discussion that initially prompted it was comparing armor values, specifically the og SAMAS and Cyclone (1E and the -052 IIRC). The other party was pushing that the SAMAS had superior armor (50MDC more in main body), but when you consider all the various locations and the mass/weight of the units in question the Cyclone actually comes out with a superior value (og SAMAS was ~3.8 MDC per kg, the 1E Cyclone was ~6.75/11.39 depending on the model, and in 2E the -52 had ~4.79 with the -41/38 at ~3.##) even though in terms of main body the Rifts unit had more MDC it wasn't as "efficient" as the RT unit(s) it was being compared to.

I will admit the project wasn't perfect, but the Palladium system itself is far from perfect. I was also working with what data was available and keeping wild assumptions out of it. There is some precedent to in how I looked at things, in the FAQ in Rifts SB1(original) on pg8 (top left column) in how PB defines "light, medium, and heavy body armor, the weight or the amount of M.D.C?" (the answer was: "The amount of M.D.C. protection compared to the weight", with more details added). So comparing MDC by weight/mass is a reasonable approach even by PB. Now to truly compare (for example) a EBA/BA to a mecha unit would require them to be using the same units all around, which means you have to convert tons to lbs/kg or lbs/kg to tons (and IMHO putting everything in kg was easier and less prone to error than the alternatives) otherwise the results aren't directly comparable. And the same goes if you want to compare MD-materials available (MD-Chromium vs MD-Steel vs MD-Ceramic vs whatever other canon MD-materials). Now it is true that there are other aspects to consider in the examples in question that impact weight (I don't dispute this as there is some link between taking enough MD and "system health"), but not necessarily count as "armor" but there is no way to filter it out with the available data (and to do so would require a wild assumption) nor is it considering special properties (ex. Chromium takes half damage from lasers, which in that specific situation would double its MD/kg rating) to keep thing simple.
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Re: CS and Glitter Boys

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

nord67 wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 11:03 am Coalition States in Rifts tends to view Glitter Boys with a combination of admiration and wariness. While recognizing their prowess as defenders, the CS may respond with caution, attempts at recruitment, or even hostility, depending on the perceived threat to CS authority.
Citation please
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Re: CS and Glitter Boys

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

ShadowLogan wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 3:41 pm I know M2 is easy to forget about, few topics in the forums on it even in the past though I thought the context would have made it clear.

The discussion that initially prompted it was comparing armor values, specifically the og SAMAS and Cyclone (1E and the -052 IIRC). The other party was pushing that the SAMAS had superior armor (50MDC more in main body), but when you consider all the various locations and the mass/weight of the units in question the Cyclone actually comes out with a superior value (og SAMAS was ~3.8 MDC per kg, the 1E Cyclone was ~6.75/11.39 depending on the model, and in 2E the -52 had ~4.79 with the -41/38 at ~3.##) even though in terms of main body the Rifts unit had more MDC it wasn't as "efficient" as the RT unit(s) it was being compared to.

I will admit the project wasn't perfect, but the Palladium system itself is far from perfect. I was also working with what data was available and keeping wild assumptions out of it. There is some precedent to in how I looked at things, in the FAQ in Rifts SB1(original) on pg8 (top left column) in how PB defines "light, medium, and heavy body armor, the weight or the amount of M.D.C?" (the answer was: "The amount of M.D.C. protection compared to the weight", with more details added). So comparing MDC by weight/mass is a reasonable approach even by PB. Now to truly compare (for example) a EBA/BA to a mecha unit would require them to be using the same units all around, which means you have to convert tons to lbs/kg or lbs/kg to tons (and IMHO putting everything in kg was easier and less prone to error than the alternatives) otherwise the results aren't directly comparable. And the same goes if you want to compare MD-materials available (MD-Chromium vs MD-Steel vs MD-Ceramic vs whatever other canon MD-materials). Now it is true that there are other aspects to consider in the examples in question that impact weight (I don't dispute this as there is some link between taking enough MD and "system health"), but not necessarily count as "armor" but there is no way to filter it out with the available data (and to do so would require a wild assumption) nor is it considering special properties (ex. Chromium takes half damage from lasers, which in that specific situation would double its MD/kg rating) to keep thing simple.
Though I do love the metal siren and the other veritechs and the SAP.

Hmm interesting so on average Rifts stuff is heavier.

:shock: What?!?! The Palladium system is without error and no one plays house ruled systems.
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Re: CS and Glitter Boys

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Zer0 Kay wrote:Though I do love the metal siren and the other veritechs and the SAP.
Interesting tid bit in the M2 rules, even Mini-Missiles are guided.

I've considered the idea of what a RT VF-1 would look like if it was used as a test bed for new REF technologies (as opposed to using the 1E VF-1V) and ended up with something very M2 Metal Siren like. Heck you might even be able drop the MS in as a mission competitor to the Beta.
Zer0 Kay wrote:Hmm interesting so on average Rifts stuff is heavier.
I'm not sure I would put it that way. That example essentially amounts to being a test case using a specific matchup because as I expanded the results to include additional examples the results became less clear cut because Rifts had more examples to work with than RT-1E/2E and M2. What can be said is that Palladium does seem to keep MDC values related to mass/weight within given ranges for a given sub-type for non-creatures (something similar may exist for creatures, but the way I set up the data doesn't show it) that has been either intentional or unintentional done.

As an example, of the non-transforming "Robot" units (in RT that would be Battloids/Destroids and alien units) the RT-1E/2E and M2 stuff all fell w/n the Min/Max for the Rifts examples I had. The only Rifts "Veritech PA" the NE Sun Chariot (DB8) fell w/n the range of the RT VT PA (ie Cyclones), and the full VT units had Rifts Examples (Naruni and Kittani examples) falling w/n their range as well. Rifts essentially established the Min/Max for PA with the RT stuff falling within it (note Giant PA was kept distinct, but even here the one Rifts PA for giants I had fell within the range established by RT). Similar patterns exist in other similar game cited generic classifications (the only exception was the OLD Body Armor rules because 1e-RT didn't do mass/weight of the suits or if they did it wasn't in the printings I had).
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