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 Post subject: Starting languages
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:15 pm
  

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I was poking around and it suddenly hit me. I don't know the "native" language of splugorth slaves and minions. Any thoughts on what it would be? I'm poking away at a bio-borg and I have no idea what they would have as their main form of communication.

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 Post subject: Re: Starting languages
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:23 pm
  

Hero

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The most common language spoken/understood among Splugorth minions and slaves is Dragonese. Exceptions include the Bio-Borgs in Rifter 9 and DB3, whom in their reeducation learn two of "choice"; the Shadkan in DB14, detailed in terms of Phase World trade languages; the universally telepathic Slavers; and Altara whose native language as of WB30 is Demongogian. Atlantean is arguably the best bet for a "native" language, being known both by favored minions like the Kydians and slave species eager for advancement like the Staphra. Gobblely is the next most commonly known, along with region-specific languages like Rifts Atlantis' use of American.

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 Post subject: Re: Starting languages
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:24 pm
  

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All of the minions have Dragonese which appears to be the language of the Splugorth so I have always played it as the minions no longer have a native language. That language has been wiped away by centuries of service to the Splugorth.

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 Post subject: Re: Starting languages
Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:47 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
All of the minions have Dragonese which appears to be the language of the Splugorth so I have always played it as the minions no longer have a native language. That language has been wiped away by centuries of service to the Splugorth.


I agree. You MIGHT run into some unconquered versions who have their own language (it is a big Megaverse), but if they're Splugorth, they speak Dragonese.

Idle thought: I wonder if there are any Earth languages descended from Dragonese?

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 Post subject: Re: Starting languages
Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:43 pm
  

Hero

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It would depend on how literally one takes the name. Do two dragons refer to their language among themselves as Dragonese? If so one could argue there's a potential connection to Romance languages, perhaps most directly Italian. If it's a term begrudgingly tolerated in lieu of some reserved-for-dragons word meaning The Tongue or whatever, then go nuts.

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Last edited by Curbludgeon on Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Starting languages
Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:31 pm
  

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Knight

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In PF the language is also termed "Elven" if I recall, so in terms of describing the language it probably is just named after whichever race you associate with having spoke it.

I'd speculate the Dragon/Elf ratio is probably a lot higher in Rifts Earth than in PF since dragons are all teleporting here to become MDC and immune to elven SDC arrows and stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Starting languages
Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:33 pm
  

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Mark Hall wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
All of the minions have Dragonese which appears to be the language of the Splugorth so I have always played it as the minions no longer have a native language. That language has been wiped away by centuries of service to the Splugorth.


I agree. You MIGHT run into some unconquered versions who have their own language (it is a big Megaverse), but if they're Splugorth, they speak Dragonese.

The only group that I have ever dealt with an original language was the Kittani. All the others have been part of the Splugorth for so long that even if you found examples of their original languages I don't think it would be recognized. Also, lots of these races probably never had a written language and some may have been elevated from lesser lifeforms who may not have had even a spoken language. I am thinking about power lords and slavers in that last group.

Even the Kreeghor in Phase World seem to have lost there language during there service to the splugorth as they all speak Trade 5.


Mark Hall wrote:
Idle thought: I wonder if there are any Earth languages descended from Dragonese?

I doubt it. I have always thought what separates ancient Greek from Ture Atlantean as a language is True Atlantean probably has some Dragonese influences. The Palladium Fantasy human languages have no connection to Earth languages, KS has said that outright.

Curbludgeon wrote:
It would depend on how literally one takes the name. Do two dragons refer to their language among themselves as Dragonese? If so one could argue there's a potential connection to Romance languages, most specifically Italian. If it's a term begrudgingly tolerated in lieu of some reserved-to-dragons word meaning The Tongue or whatever, then go nuts.

What do two Englishmen call English? English. I don't think that is much of an issue. I think the fact that it is Dragonese/Elven tells us that this language comes from Palladium Fantasy and maybe comes from the Old Ones.

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 Post subject: Re: Starting languages
Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:43 pm
  

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Knight

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another language I could see being important in Atlantis would be Demongogian since they deal with so many demons


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 Post subject: Re: Starting languages
Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:18 pm
  

Hero

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Comment: They/Them
The pinyin romanization of English is Yīngyǔ. That two native English speakers wouldn't refer to their language as such suggests that there isn't much Mandarin influence on the language. If two dragons when referring to their language use the actual phonemes in the name Dragonese, it could be interpreted (assuming you're into this sort of thing) as either an example of linguistic convergence, a coincidence, or that Elven has at least one suffix similar to those in Romance languages.

For me, I think the -ese sounds goofy even as a shorthand, and more often than not just call it Elven, but it's not like this is any kind of big deal.

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 Post subject: Re: Starting languages
Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:45 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
The only group that I have ever dealt with an original language was the Kittani. All the others have been part of the Splugorth for so long that even if you found examples of their original languages I don't think it would be recognized. Also, lots of these races probably never had a written language and some may have been elevated from lesser lifeforms who may not have had even a spoken language. I am thinking about power lords and slavers in that last group.

Among those races with Minion Status like the Kittani, the Altrarans have a language (Mercenaries pg91, NPC's skills) as do the Kydians (WB6 pg77 NPC's skills, specifically identified as a literate skill), Metzlta (WB2 pg61 & 63) and the Kreeghor (DB2 pg79, the Machine People RCC has Kreeghor as a "Native Language" option, likely as an adopted language given the wording and as the Kreeghor did not create them).

WB2's non-Minion Races do retain their languages (Adoran, 3 species of Hawrkin, 2 species of Shaydorian)


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 Post subject: Re: Starting languages
Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:42 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
another language I could see being important in Atlantis would be Demongogian since they deal with so many demons

I could see them knowing it, in fact I bet several OCCs and NPCs do, but I doubt it would alter there own languange.

ShadowLogan wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
The only group that I have ever dealt with an original language was the Kittani. All the others have been part of the Splugorth for so long that even if you found examples of their original languages I don't think it would be recognized. Also, lots of these races probably never had a written language and some may have been elevated from lesser lifeforms who may not have had even a spoken language. I am thinking about power lords and slavers in that last group.

Among those races with Minion Status like the Kittani, the Altrarans have a language (Mercenaries pg91, NPC's skills) as do the Kydians (WB6 pg77 NPC's skills, specifically identified as a literate skill), Metzlta (WB2 pg61 & 63) and the Kreeghor (DB2 pg79, the Machine People RCC has Kreeghor as a "Native Language" option, likely as an adopted language given the wording and as the Kreeghor did not create them).

WB2's non-Minion Races do retain their languages (Adoran, 3 species of Hawrkin, 2 species of Shaydorian)

Excellent catch. I want to say one of my players pointed this out to me after Mercenaries came out. What's funny is that it's not consistent. Several NPCs have Kittani as a skill but the one Kittani NPC doesn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Starting languages
Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:50 am
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
Excellent catch. I want to say one of my players pointed this out to me after Mercenaries came out. What's funny is that it's not consistent. Several NPCs have Kittani as a skill but the one Kittani NPC doesn't.

Thanks.

I did an incomplete survey of the Rifts line some time ago looking at NPCs, OCC/RCC/PCCs to create a master list for languages. There are at least a dozen races in the Rifts line that adopted a new native language in their descriptions (most I know of are in WB30), which implies they had a previous native language. There are also x6 that with no native language at all connected to them. There is one language directly called out as a human language dialect (Japanese and PW's Oni), the Amaki RCCs (WB9) might be a second with their "New Babylonian" Language/Literacy skill (origin is not clear). Interestingly enough there are 4 different telepathic languages (Trade2 in PW, Amorph and Slurmphs in WB30, and Cactus People in WB14).

As for the NPC skill gaps. I take the NPCs with a grain of salt on two fronts. One is that they don't always follow the rules, but also I treat the NPC writeups as being incomplete.

EDIT: In WB21 pg89 for the Rulian Translator RCC the starting RCC language list includes "Atlantean, Ancient Greek", which is odd because I thought Atlantean was a dialect of Ancient Greek per WB2.


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 Post subject: Re: Starting languages
Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:44 am
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Excellent catch. I want to say one of my players pointed this out to me after Mercenaries came out. What's funny is that it's not consistent. Several NPCs have Kittani as a skill but the one Kittani NPC doesn't.

Thanks.

I did an incomplete survey of the Rifts line some time ago looking at NPCs, OCC/RCC/PCCs to create a master list for languages. There are at least a dozen races in the Rifts line that adopted a new native language in their descriptions (most I know of are in WB30), which implies they had a previous native language. There are also x6 that with no native language at all connected to them. There is one language directly called out as a human language dialect (Japanese and PW's Oni), the Amaki RCCs (WB9) might be a second with their "New Babylonian" Language/Literacy skill (origin is not clear). Interestingly enough there are 4 different telepathic languages (Trade2 in PW, Amorph and Slurmphs in WB30, and Cactus People in WB14).

I tried to get a handle on the languages a few times, most recently about 3 years ago when I did a skills survey across all PB lines.

The only thing I am not sure of is the Oni. There culture is very like Japan but I am not sure it says anywhere that the language is Japanese or even related to Japanese. I know there word for demon is human but that's it.

Truthfully languages are one of the worst parts of Phase World world building. I mean humans have 1 language, wolfen one, we don't even get languages for Noro or most other races. Even in Palladium Fantasy they have several human languages but only 1 wolfen. The Oni with there origins make sense to have 1 language only but most others just seems a little lazy.

ShadowLogan wrote:
As for the NPC skill gaps. I take the NPCs with a grain of salt on two fronts. One is that they don't always follow the rules, but also I treat the NPC writeups as being incomplete.

I always treat them as quick stats and incomplete so yes they definitely have skills that aren't listed.

ShadowLogan wrote:
EDIT: In WB21 pg89 for the Rulian Translator RCC the starting RCC language list includes "Atlantean, Ancient Greek", which is odd because I thought Atlantean was a dialect of Ancient Greek per WB2.

I noticed this when a player wanted to create a Rulian contact to use on Center. We treated it as a misprint. It was probably supposed to have a / instead of a , there and say Atlantean/Ancient Greek as this is how it is usually printed. Again just my take.

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 Post subject: Re: Starting languages
Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:14 am
  

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Re: DB3's Oni & Earth Japanese
Check out pg18, the Cyberai OCC. "Language: Oni (98%, automatically gains Japanese at 50% at first level" and flip over to pg21 in the second Oni OCC "Language: Oninese (very similar to Earth's Japanese)". I'd say that makes the Earth Language related to the PW Language, though which came first I don't know but it seems like the Oni/Japanese are supposed to be dialects of each other give Language in Oni automatically gives Japanese at a reduced level (making it a dialect, given dialects are supposed to impose a penalty that appears built in though this penalty is much larger than in RUE).

Re: Languages in General
Yeah its a bit odd how every race only has one language associated with it, when humans (megaversally) have something like (at least) 36 in print (compared to over 100 PC-playable creatures). They also have a lot of sharing going on to between various races (a few dialects of, but mostly just straight language X).

As for races not having something specifically identified or granted to them as a "Native", there might be an explanation that works at least for pre-RUE books in the wording for the language skill (RMB pg 31-2): "Characters with a language skill can understand and speak in a language other than their own native tongue." This would seem to imply that a native language is automatic and something you don't spend skill slots on (you still have to choose what your native language is).

Some of this I think is Palladium just trying to keep things manageable, though they do acknowledge there is something like over 10,000 major languages (and 100x dialect variations) in Phaseworld alone. Its one of those things that adds realism, but at the same time can hamper the fun if taken to far.


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 Post subject: Re: Starting languages
Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:08 pm
  

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Monk

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If the slaves were 'captured' then their native language would be that of their place of origin.

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 Post subject: Re: Starting languages
Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:45 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Re: DB3's Oni & Earth Japanese
Check out pg18, the Cyberai OCC. "Language: Oni (98%, automatically gains Japanese at 50% at first level" and flip over to pg21 in the second Oni OCC "Language: Oninese (very similar to Earth's Japanese)". I'd say that makes the Earth Language related to the PW Language, though which came first I don't know but it seems like the Oni/Japanese are supposed to be dialects of each other give Language in Oni automatically gives Japanese at a reduced level (making it a dialect, given dialects are supposed to impose a penalty that appears built in though this penalty is much larger than in RUE).

Another inconsistent rule just listed with the OCC. I never get tired of those. Another great catch. What is funny is I have a Cyberai pregen for convention games that has that skill, I house ruled it to say Japanese at -40% just to make it easy.

ShadowLogan wrote:
Re: Languages in General
Yeah its a bit odd how every race only has one language associated with it, when humans (megaversally) have something like (at least) 36 in print (compared to over 100 PC-playable creatures). They also have a lot of sharing going on to between various races (a few dialects of, but mostly just straight language X).

Well humans are dominant in almost every setting so not surprising and some languages being common, like Dragonese/Elven or Demongogian, make a lot of sense. Like I said the Oni background makes a single language reasonable. But races like Wolfen and Noro should have several. On the other hand you could make an argument that as a species goes out into space and expands the need for a common language really kicks in.

Also, it is a game and you want players to be able to communicate wherever they go, that is why everyone in the Stargate Universe speaks English unless the story calls for something different.

ShadowLogan wrote:
As for races not having something specifically identified or granted to them as a "Native", there might be an explanation that works at least for pre-RUE books in the wording for the language skill (RMB pg 31-2): "Characters with a language skill can understand and speak in a language other than their own native tongue." This would seem to imply that a native language is automatic and something you don't spend skill slots on (you still have to choose what your native language is).

You always had to just assume native language for all the old PB games like TMNT, Robotech, even Nightbane I believe. Really having native language as a skill came with RUE and even now is still inconsistent.

ShadowLogan wrote:
Some of this I think is Palladium just trying to keep things manageable, though they do acknowledge there is something like over 10,000 major languages (and 100x dialect variations) in Phaseworld alone. Its one of those things that adds realism, but at the same time can hamper the fun if taken to far.

Exactly. I always wanted a simple list of a few languages for each race that would be the most common but I end up creating most of them myself. That way if I want the players to be able to communicate this planet uses a trade language but if I want them to have a hard time I create specific language to that race for that region.

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