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 Post subject: Pack Masters
Unread postPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 9:17 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:24 pm
Posts: 1356
I was reading the pack master OCC again and I believe they should get more bio-e points all around. What do you all think? I think their armor should be light leatherback so they do not have any penalties on skills like prowl. Give their armor more bio-e points to make up for the lower MDC. They should start with antenna and multiple eye stalks. If they get the modified weapons from rifter zero it could really help. I am really interested in all your opinions so please reply. Thank you all.


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 Post subject: Re: Pack Masters
Unread postPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 2:56 pm
  

Palladin

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm
Posts: 7267
starting with 3 hounds is a *huge* action economy boost. not only do the hounds all get actions, but if they get into melee those attacks can take away enemy actions as well. I would be very cautious on increasing the amount of bio-e they get; hounds are worth a heck of a lot of bio-e on their own. I might personally favour a general shift in all OCCs towards reducing the randomness of bio-e increases somewhat, but just straight up giving the packmaster more seems a bit much... though giving a bit more bio-e specifically towards enhanced senses and similar sounds alright. also remember that there are rules for characters to get bio-e to spend on their hand-held weapons in existence. personally, out of those, I would favour things like giving packmasters a free upgrade on the duration they can go without feeding, but mostly just leave it be.

for the armour, I could see a little bit more of a budget for mobility and enhanced senses, but I think hide actually works pretty well for them; the prowl penalty is pretty minor, and the added toughness and especially regeneration rate can be very significant for hit-and-run tactics. as a player, I wouldn't mind if there was an *option* for lighter armour for other people, but I would almost always choose the heavier armour given the penalties are pretty small and the benefits are quite large; you're still got great mobility and stealth, and if you have to fight, you aren't a completely soft target.


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 Post subject: Re: Pack Masters
Unread postPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 4:34 pm
  

Explorer

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:27 am
Posts: 178
I would highly recommend Rifter #59, pages 18 to 30, “Pack Mentality”
It covers a lot of additional things for Packmasters, including: Breeds, skill augmentation, and the Elite Packmaster options.


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 Post subject: Re: Pack Masters
Unread postPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 6:52 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:24 pm
Posts: 1356
TagsPB wrote:
I would highly recommend Rifter #59, pages 18 to 30, “Pack Mentality”
It covers a lot of additional things for Packmasters, including: Breeds, skill augmentation, and the Elite Packmaster options.


All of which cost more bio-e so supports my argument for more bio-e. That being said I think that issue rocks and really help the packmaster alot. I like the collar but the costs for them are high. The Elite Packmaster armor is cool but I would like other options. How many points did that armor cost in bio-e? Maybe give the option of more starting point for the armor?

Starting with three hounds that depending on gm you may not have control of really is not a big bonus. In a heavy combat encounter you could easily lose a hound. That forces you to get a new one with a much lower bio-e available. Outriders have full control of their mounts, but pack masters not so much.

So happy to see you guys replying to this post Thank You!


Last edited by boxee on Sat May 02, 2020 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pack Masters
Unread postPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 11:56 pm
  

Palladin

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm
Posts: 7267
the hounds will literally explicitly obey a packmaster. it is so ingrained into them that in the absence of their own packmaster, there is a 100% chance they will obey another packmaster that is present if that packmaster is insistent, and will sometimes even obey orders given by non-packmasters that they don't even know. I mean, sure, your GM can be a turd and have them do whatever they want anyways, but your GM can always be a turd.

i mean, seriously, here is from their write-up:

"Gorehounds automatically accept their Packmaster as the undisputed leader/alpha-wolf of their pack and obey only his commands. This "pack" mentality makes them easy to control and direct even under the most chaotic conditions, for they follow the lead of their Packmaster and fellow pack-mates." (Splicers, 117).

there isn't even the excuse of them not hearing you, because both packmaster and hounds have built-in bio-comms that can't be jammed.

if your GM has them go off and do something stupid that you told them not to do, no amount of bio-e solves the problem.

that said, I do find it very odd that replacement hounds are given a substantially lower bio-e allotment. I can understand if it's caused by packmaster stupidity that the people in charge would be reluctant to give you a new one after you screwed up, but the world of splicers is quite deadly... I would expect that there are plenty of hounds lost that are just not realistically preventable, and in those cases, you'd think that an experienced and proven packmaster would be getting a full replacement. but that applies in general; an experienced archangel that sacrifices their wing pack to save a hundred others shouldn't be told that they're getting a weaker one as a replacement (except possibly as a temporary thing until there's an opening to create a full replacement).


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 Post subject: Re: Pack Masters
Unread postPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 2:49 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:24 pm
Posts: 1356
Ok so what about more armor options?


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 Post subject: Re: Pack Masters
Unread postPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 4:06 am
  

Palladin

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm
Posts: 7267
for more experienced packmasters, maybe (say, around level 4... remember, at higher levels, they can qualify for the full armour upgrades). if you look at all the kit they give to a completely brand new inexperienced level 1 packmaster, it's actually quite an impressive amount. I probably wouldn't go too crazy on what it might be, but I would think someone who's shown they can survive at least that long is probably a reasonable place to spend resources (at least some of the points I would argue would be standardized across each great house, something to mark that particular packmaster as being not exactly a veteran, but at least not completely green, acting as a badge of distinction).

remember that it is also possible to earn commendations that include some extra bio-E awards as well; in the world of splicers, even just survival can be an impressive accomplishment.


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 Post subject: Re: Pack Masters
Unread postPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 11:14 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:24 pm
Posts: 1356
So maybe a small bonus on bio-e, or a few small features may be acceptable? In the main rule book it talks about giving up to 40 bio-e points to starting living armor (page 139). What about that? If that was given to classes that do not start with host armor it would greatly narrow the power gap.


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 Post subject: Re: Pack Masters
Unread postPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 1:53 am
  

Hero

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:08 am
Posts: 821
Comment: They/Them
With the inclusion of I am Legion (also found in Rifter 71-77) and Rifter 0 I don't think Packmasters really need any more BIO-E, particularly at 1st level. They receive 26-56 in armor mods, 5-30 in weapon mods with the potential to purchase more, and 126-216 in Gorehound mods. No mention is made of cost to the character's Bio-E pool for being awarded either of the Elite Packmaster armors in the above sources, or the Mauler/Samaritan models of Gorehound. In the thread "Gorehound Conversion Costs?" found near the bottom of the first page I give decent estimates in Bio-E costs for M/S. Perhaps it's worthwhile to consider a 1st level Packmaster as roughly the rank of a Roughneck, while at ~5th level they receive a battlefield commission.

I agree with Shark_Force that the amounts of BIO-E each character receives are quite swingy, and think going with a slightly-higher-than-average amount might be a good way to address that. If you feel that and the opportunity to get several hundred BIO-E for free in a few levels still isn't enough, a Geneticist (Rifter 50) can give out 10+ a level, for which I'd say the character should role play the interaction.


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 Post subject: Re: Pack Masters
Unread postPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 10:54 am
  

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Hero

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:24 pm
Posts: 1356
Where is it said that packmasters get anything other than gorehound bio-e points past what they start with? A Geneticist (Rifter 50) can give out 10+ a level that makes a big difference if your GM uses them and allows you to get the added bio-e points.


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 Post subject: Re: Pack Masters
Unread postPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 5:15 am
  

Hero

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:08 am
Posts: 821
Comment: They/Them
The Rifter 59 entry for Elite Packmaster gives the class further personal BIO-E, while the Packlord armor in Rifter 73 doesn't specify. Given the additional armaments that armor has I could see limiting any additional to sensory augments. The Mauler Gorehound variants in Rifter 73 and Samaritan in 74 don't cost the Packmaster points to become upgraded, although any changes made after the Mauler upgrade do, and are more expensive to boot. The Packmaster does receive additional BIO-E for their hounds and handheld weapons each level, to the extent that I Am Legion essentially grandfathered the Rifter 0 article into canon.


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