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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:33 am
  

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Wanderer

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The Optional Character Creation options in the recent rulebooks (instead of rolling 3d6) has made me dust off my Palladium RPG book.Would the guaranteed higher stats work well for the old fantasy RPG setting?

Men-at-Arms would covet Physically Strong for damage or Reflexes for maximizing strike/parry bonuses. Some players might detour from min/max and take Fast as Lightning or Great Endurance. Roleplay-centered players might want a Brainy thief, Charismatic merchant or Beauty noble for attribute +O.C.C. combinations.

Would the higher character stats break the old 1st edition rulebook or make the game better?


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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:31 pm
  

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Champion

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Comment: Kill it with Fire.
The only stat I don't like over 20 is PP, in fact I had a lot of fun when one of the party members saved the juggernauts chosen (mortal) wife and he blessed the character with a (supernatural) strength of 50. The look on his face from the first panicked dodge from an attempted surprise attack and full strength jumped out of the way where he landed in a lake about 4 miles away, to the frustration of trying to jump on top of a 500 metre tall tower and continually missing and landing in weird places.

PP is the munchkins stat as it adds to 3+ combat stats (strike, parry dodge etc) and the strike bonuses for example are hard to replicate. Bonuses to damage and parry are relatively easy to get, strike and dodge are a lot harder, especially for lvl 1-3.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:55 pm
  

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Wanderer

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kiralon wrote:
The only stat I don't like over 20 is PP, in fact I had a lot of fun when one of the party members saved the juggernauts chosen (mortal) wife and he blessed the character with a (supernatural) strength of 50. The look on his face from the first panicked dodge from an attempted surprise attack and full strength jumped out of the way where he landed in a lake about 4 miles away, to the frustration of trying to jump on top of a 500 metre tall tower and continually missing and landing in weird places.

PP is the munchkins stat as it adds to 3+ combat stats (strike, parry dodge etc) and the strike bonuses for example are hard to replicate. Bonuses to damage and parry are relatively easy to get, strike and dodge are a lot harder, especially for lvl 1-3.


Sounds like you are playing with 2nd Edition rules, not 1st Edition.

Heading to game theory, roll up two Knights, one Reflexes (P.S. 12 P.P. 21), the other Physically Strong (P.S.21 P.P. 12). Both get bonuses from Hand-to-Hand:Knight and Weapon Proficencies.

Reflexes - a +3 to strike/parry/dodge from P.P. 21
- Level 1 +4 strike, +4 parry, +3 dodge, +2 damage
- Level 7 +6 Strike, +9 parry, +6 dodge and +3 damage.

Physically Strong - a +6 damage per hit from P.S. 21
- Level 1 +1 strike, +1 parry, +8 damage
- Level 7 +3 strike, +6 parry, +3 dodge and +9 damage.

Equipment
- at 1st Level our P.S. 21 Knight could easily manage any full suit of armor, our P.S. 12 Knight should probably be wearing a half-suit. Say A.R. 14 full double mail vs half suit A.R. 10.
- at 7th Level likely have at least A.R. 17 full plate armor, vs a half-suit at A.R. 13 instead. Magic armor could be much better, but we'll leave that out for now.
- superior non-magic weapons can give strike/parry or damage bonuses. Magic properties could be an invisible weapon for bonuses to strike and parry, or a eternally sharp blade with extra damage...

So the differences I see are:
- a +3 to Parry VS +4 in A.R. (I'd say parry is more valuable in most situtations)
- a +3 strike VS an additional +6 to damage (which is better depends on whether you are fighting something that parries and what it's A.R. is)
- the P.S. 21 is much more useful for non-combat situations than a 21 P.P. (Carrying 210 pounds instead of 120 pounds the character can carry a full grown man instead of dragging one).


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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:23 am
  

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Champion

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Comment: Kill it with Fire.
A strength of 7-8 is all that is needed to wear plate and use a weapon
So at level 7 its the +3 to strike vs the +9 to parry, then the +6 to strike vs +6 to parry back, that's not good odds for only doing 6 damage more.
Lvl 1 the difference is a little less pronounced, but at any level its easier to get +damage items than +strike/parry/dodge (damage bonuses are cheaper).


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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:06 am
  

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Wanderer

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I didn't say the P.S. 12 cannot wear full plate, I said "should probably be wearing a half-suit". Rules-As-Written (p. 8 1st Ed. Revised) put a penalty to Speed, Parry and Dodge for carrying heavy loads. Using R.A.W. both Knights are better off staying on horseback so they don't have to carry anything themselves other than armor and a weapon as even Full Plate plus any weapon gives a -4 Speed -1 P.E. and -1 parry and dodge.

I personally think that is too harsh, especially since the penalties apply the same no matter what your P.S. is. Most G.M.s probably either ignore that rule or have their own house-rules; I certainly would create a house-rule accounting the on actual P.S. number.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:36 pm
  

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Champion

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Comment: Kill it with Fire.
No knight player would choose a half suit over a full suit given the choice for combat, and as knights can (and I cant think of a men at arms that hasn't yet) take the running skill which adds to your speed (3d4+4) and 1 PE and carry a load running 2x longer, so the minus's even out, and knights can afford a +1 to parry longsword at level 1 the negatives tend to even out.

Which means the high PP knight will still on average win the fight in armour because the difference in numbers to strike needed vs what you have to get to parry, The high PS knight has to roll a 15-20 to penetrate armour compared to the high PP knights need to only roll a 9-14 to parry those attacks other than a nat 20.

Then see what fleet feet does. Every fighter wants a ring of fleet feet (or potion, or boots, or toilet paper thereof etc)
and a player with a PP of 24 is even more disruptive because you only get +5 to strike from being level 12+ with a weapon (assassins, knights and paladins are the only classes in the main book that get a bonus to strike from hth). So a level 1 character with PP of 24 strikes better than a level 11 knight.
A level 3 soldier with a normal shield and PP of 24 has +11 to parry, and because strike and parry rolls are conflicting rolls, to have even a semi decent chance of hitting him you need at least +6 to strike to have any chance of winning, and as you have seen its easy enough for level 10 knights not to have that.
So unless you want cannon fodder for the character with the really high PP, you have to throw monsters at the party that can mostly walk through the other players with ease but still likely be stopped by the high PP character.
Then fleet feet a person with a PP of 24 and see how it turns out (I don't actually recommend ever letting a character with PP of 10 or higher getting fleet feet)


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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:31 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: Doomed to crumble unless we grow, and strengthen our communication.
There is no Running skill (or Physical skills of any kind) in first edition.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:06 pm
  

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Wanderer

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kiralon wrote:
No knight player would choose a half suit over a full suit given the choice for combat, and as knights can (and I cant think of a men at arms that hasn't yet) take the running skill which adds to your speed (3d4+4) and 1 PE and carry a load running 2x longer, so the minus's even out, and knights can afford a +1 to parry longsword at level 1 the negatives tend to even out.

Which means the high PP knight will still on average win the fight in armour because the difference in numbers to strike needed vs what you have to get to parry, The high PS knight has to roll a 15-20 to penetrate armour compared to the high PP knights need to only roll a 9-14 to parry those attacks other than a nat 20.

Then see what fleet feet does. Every fighter wants a ring of fleet feet (or potion, or boots, or toilet paper thereof etc)
and a player with a PP of 24 is even more disruptive because you only get +5 to strike from being level 12+ with a weapon (assassins, knights and paladins are the only classes in the main book that get a bonus to strike from hth). So a level 1 character with PP of 24 strikes better than a level 11 knight.
A level 3 soldier with a normal shield and PP of 24 has +11 to parry, and because strike and parry rolls are conflicting rolls, to have even a semi decent chance of hitting him you need at least +6 to strike to have any chance of winning, and as you have seen its easy enough for level 10 knights not to have that.
So unless you want cannon fodder for the character with the really high PP, you have to throw monsters at the party that can mostly walk through the other players with ease but still likely be stopped by the high PP character.
Then fleet feet a person with a PP of 24 and see how it turns out (I don't actually recommend ever letting a character with PP of 10 or higher getting fleet feet)


Again...you are using the wrong rulebook Kiralon.

Also, ever seen the movie Rob Roy? Your P.P. 24 Knight isn't going to get to parry my P.S. 21 Knight because I'm going to call simultaneous attack and split your fighter from shoulder to hip.

Natasha wrote:
There is no Running skill (or Physical skills of any kind) in first edition.


Natasha is right about 1st Edition. The consquence of no Physical Skills as known it later Palladium rulebooks is you cannot boost stats (Speed, P.P., P.S., etc) by taking Physical Skills since they do not exist. What you roll for attributes scores is it. Period.

It is also important to note there is no personal S.D.C. only Hit Points if your character actually takes damage (instead of armor).
- a first level knight with P.E. 12 has anywhere from 13 to 18 hitpoints (and zero S.D.C.)
- monsters only hit points and A.R.; S.D.C. does not exist in their stat line.
That +6 damage from 21 P.S. is a lot deadlier when nobody has S.D.C. to soak up the first few hits.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:05 pm
  

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Champion

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Comment: Kill it with Fire.
Natasha wrote:
There is no Running skill (or Physical skills of any kind) in first edition.

Wrong, high seas gives tumbling and acrobatics from memory, and yin sloth gives running (probably others)

You will find running on page 42 of the yin sloth jungles (which is first ed, they never released a second ed version)


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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:16 pm
  

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Champion

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Comment: Kill it with Fire.
I'm not actually sure which bit makes you think Im using second ed, but the bonuses for the soldier are straight out of the book.
+5 from PP of 24
+3 from soldiers hth style
+3 parry with a shield at lvl 3

and sword and board is the answer to simultaneous strikes. the paired weapons user can strike and parry simultaneously (high seas first ed book)
"Users of paired weapons can: 1. Strike and
parry simultaneously , or 2. Can do twin, simultaneous strikes
against the same target"

Red is copied out of the book

and unless you want to be at a disadvantage as a fighter you always take paired weapons.

The books are available on drive thru rpg, if you play a lot of 1st ed (like I do, I have been playing it for many years now as im not keen on second ed) id also get island at the edge of the world, which is a pretty good 1st ed adventure. (converts to second ed fairly easily though)


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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:02 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: Doomed to crumble unless we grow, and strengthen our communication.
kiralon wrote:
Natasha wrote:
There is no Running skill (or Physical skills of any kind) in first edition.

Wrong, high seas gives tumbling and acrobatics from memory, and yin sloth gives running (probably others)

You will find running on page 42 of the yin sloth jungles (which is first ed, they never released a second ed version)

Acrobatics isn't available to men-at-arms and doesn't give any Attribute bonuses. I had forgotten about Running being included in Yin Sloth, thanks.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:36 pm
  

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Wanderer

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kiralon wrote:
I'm not actually sure which bit makes you think Im using second ed, but the bonuses for the soldier are straight out of the book.
+5 from PP of 24
+3 from soldiers hth style
+3 parry with a shield at lvl 3

and sword and board is the answer to simultaneous strikes. the paired weapons user can strike and parry simultaneously (high seas first ed book)
"Users of paired weapons can: 1. Strike and
parry simultaneously , or 2. Can do twin, simultaneous strikes
against the same target"

Red is copied out of the book

and unless you want to be at a disadvantage as a fighter you always take paired weapons.


I had assumed you are using the wrong edition because you keep talking about skills like Running and Paired Weapons that aren't in 1st Edition rulebook. Thank you for clarifying that you are using the add-on rules from High Seas (which is effectively Palladium Fantasy 1.5 Ed.).

kiralon wrote:
The books are available on drive thru rpg, if you play a lot of 1st ed (like I do, I have been playing it for many years now as im not keen on second ed) id also get island at the edge of the world, which is a pretty good 1st ed adventure. (converts to second ed fairly easily though)


I'll pass. If I want to run a Palladium S.D.C. I'll run Heroes Unlimited or T.M.N.T.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:03 am
  

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Champion

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Comment: Kill it with Fire.
Natasha wrote:
kiralon wrote:
Natasha wrote:
There is no Running skill (or Physical skills of any kind) in first edition.

Wrong, high seas gives tumbling and acrobatics from memory, and yin sloth gives running (probably others)

You will find running on page 42 of the yin sloth jungles (which is first ed, they never released a second ed version)

Acrobatics isn't available to men-at-arms and doesn't give any Attribute bonuses. I had forgotten about Running being included in Yin Sloth, thanks.

acrobatics doesn't give any attribute bonuses but does give +1 atm, +1 to strike and +2 to parry, which is a considerable bonus, especially if you (urrrk) multiclass.


@foilfodder
And the extra books are 1st ed rules and canon for first ed, so calling it 1.5 ed is a bit misleading I feelas it is an expansion to the 1st ed rules, but is very definitely first ed (You can tell, the paladins aren't backflipping around in their full plate doing jumping spinning flying roundhouse kicks that do more damage than a sword).
Do you call the addon books for other games version +.5 ???

But that is really neither here nor there. I'm just saying PP is a broken stat when it gets high, the person with 50 strength was less disruptive (he had a PP of 9).


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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:17 am
  

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Wanderer

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kiralon wrote:
@foilfodder
And the extra books are 1st ed rules and canon for first ed, so calling it 1.5 ed is a bit misleading I feelas it is an expansion to the 1st ed rules, but is very definitely first ed (You can tell, the paladins aren't backflipping around in their full plate doing jumping spinning flying roundhouse kicks that do more damage than a sword).
Do you call the addon books for other games version +.5 ???

But that is really neither here nor there. I'm just saying PP is a broken stat when it gets high, the person with 50 strength was less disruptive (he had a PP of 9).


To each their own.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:31 am
  

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Knight

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Comment: Doomed to crumble unless we grow, and strengthen our communication.
I understand calling it 1.5. Much of the first edition books listed new O.C.C.s, skills, rules, and such as optional because they recognised the potential disruption. It's a part of the reason why I forgot Running in Yin Sloth; we've used the book plenty but regularly just the ideas. While I still would not call it 1.5, I suppose saying I've played it as if it was 1.5 is reasonable.

All that said, I agree that a high P.P. in the first edition is very challenging.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:30 pm
  

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Champion

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Comment: Kill it with Fire.
There are optional occ's is the main book as well, and the optional bit isn't on all the classes in the other books either, and mostly by the time of yin sloth jungles they had dropped the optional bit for skills and most of the classes.
And the main book says this about the optional occ's on page 16
There are three major Occupational Characler Classes: Men of arms, Magic, and Clergy (plus a handful of optional O.C.c.s such as peasant, merchant, noble, etc.).
So optional character classes are one of the three classes that you can play.

The kick attack is an optional attack that you get at lvl 5-6
And this is in book 1

And the yin sloth jungles is full of skills and classes that don't say optional

high seas has rule clarifications.


I think the meaning of optional that you took away from that probably wasn't quite the optional they were aiming for (happens a lot in these books) but I am often wrong, however you 2 are the only ones I have heard mention it that way since I started playing first ed pfrpg.
Which means most of old ones and high seas is optional but most of yin sloth isn't, and I would have to check but Island at the edge of the world had certainly dropped optional.

Do you take that the optional occ's (in the main book, not the others) are ones you have to ask the dm to play because they say optional and need special permission to play, or they are there as an extra option that means you don't have to be a rogue or a wizard, or a priest and can play something different?


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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:33 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: Doomed to crumble unless we grow, and strengthen our communication.
From a PC creation perspective, anything in Book 1 as written was available while anything else became subjects of house rules or not allowed. Places, maps, and at times equipment were by far what we used the other books for most.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:32 pm
  

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Champion

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Comment: Kill it with Fire.
Thanks for the answer
Ah I see, the dm didn't like some of the stuff that came out. I was the same, the undead hunter was ridiculous, the pacifist priest, while sounding like a fun idea, tended to ridiculous and the running skill was pretty OP too (3d4+4 spd and +1 pe with no level or stat requirements). The illusionist was just too much work for the DM.
But I will say general repair became one of the favourite skills.
I didn't say it was a different edition, I just said to the players that there were some things I didn't like and wouldn't let them use.
But I do say that I play version 1.5, because I have pulled in some things from 2nd ed, use 3 extra stats, and made tons of other house rules. Its based on first ed, but has had rulings to fix the many issues we came across (and argued about).


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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:59 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: Doomed to crumble unless we grow, and strengthen our communication.
Yea, that's about right. Although all of this is making me want to pull out the books again and reassess some things. :)


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