The Coalition Should Lose a Battle/War In The Metaplot

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I think it's been established that the Minion War isn't much of a threat.

Care to elaborate?

I am also curious about this. The biggest problem in the minion war is if you can find the hell pits and take them out soon after construction you could heavily blunt the invasion. The problem is the strongest defenders capable of doing this are highly regional actors. Knocking down the hell pits in the midwest/east coast of america is all find and dandy but what about the ones popping up in areas that nobody claims like africa/the outback of australia/ parts of asia/the arctic/the ocean floor you could think you have been winning locally only to find out there are hundreds/thousands of hell pits belching millions of minions in areas you would have had a hard time reaching even when there were no demon gysers.

Really the best bet for local defenders is stymie the demons/devils long enough and hope they get bored and give up or take the fight elsewhere. Neither the demon nor devil forces are that cohesive frustrate them long enough and it is possible that they may beat themselves.

There's a thread about this a few months back... but the gist is:

NA locally is in zero trouble. None. The average demon is weaker than a dog boy with an out of date laser rifle. A CS field army could stop 20-40x their own number of demons without even taking significant casualties. Demons have no way to deal with long range attacks, and no fast attack options. A Linebacker tank can literally kill demons with impunity until it runs out of ammo. They can never catch it and never come into their own range of it.

Earth is also in absolutely zero trouble. Given the "no one is allowed to control all of Earth" policy that guys like Splyncryth have "agreed" to (a kind of megaversal gentlemans agreement), the moment the demons or deevils look like they are going to have any serious chance of "taking over the earth", Splynncryth moves in and puts it down.

Absolute population numbers are given for Hades and Dyval. Splynncryth has more Powerlords on a single planet he controls than the entirety of both planes combined by a large margin. And Powerlords are good for dozens or more demons each. And that's not including Kittani, et al. Or the possibility of other Splugorth lending troops to shut it down (like any of the three or four Splugorth Kingdoms that are 100x the size of Splynncryth's domain in the Three Galaxies alone).

The way it is written, the Minion War is zero threat to earth. It may not feel that way to the inhabitants on the ground in a given location, but that's the long and short of it.

[HWalsh]

I think it's been established that the Minion War isn't much of a threat.

Care to elaborate?

I am also curious about this. The biggest problem in the minion war is if you can find the hell pits and take them out soon after construction you could heavily blunt the invasion. The problem is the strongest defenders capable of doing this are highly regional actors. Knocking down the hell pits in the midwest/east coast of america is all find and dandy but what about the ones popping up in areas that nobody claims like africa/the outback of australia/ parts of asia/the arctic/the ocean floor you could think you have been winning locally only to find out there are hundreds/thousands of hell pits belching millions of minions in areas you would have had a hard time reaching even when there were no demon gysers.

Really the best bet for local defenders is stymie the demons/devils long enough and hope they get bored and give up or take the fight elsewhere. Neither the demon nor devil forces are that cohesive frustrate them long enough and it is possible that they may beat themselves.

There's a thread about this a few months back... but the gist is:

NA locally is in zero trouble. None. The average demon is weaker than a dog boy with an out of date laser rifle. A CS field army could stop 20-40x their own number of demons without even taking significant casualties. Demons have no way to deal with long range attacks, and no fast attack options. A Linebacker tank can literally kill demons with impunity until it runs out of ammo. They can never catch it and never come into their own range of it.

Earth is also in absolutely zero trouble. Given the "no one is allowed to control all of Earth" policy that guys like Splyncryth have "agreed" to (a kind of megaversal gentlemans agreement), the moment the demons or deevils look like they are going to have any serious chance of "taking over the earth", Splynncryth moves in and puts it down.

Absolute population numbers are given for Hades and Dyval. Splynncryth has more Powerlords on a single planet he controls than the entirety of both planes combined by a large margin. And Powerlords are good for dozens or more demons each. And that's not including Kittani, et al. Or the possibility of other Splugorth lending troops to shut it down (like any of the three or four Splugorth Kingdoms that are 100x the size of Splynncryth's domain in the Three Galaxies alone).

The way it is written, the Minion War is zero threat to earth. It may not feel that way to the inhabitants on the ground in a given location, but that's the long and short of it.

See, and that is what is bugging me. The CS needs to actually fight someone who can actually beat them. Someone at least who, looking at the raw numbers, actually stands a chance. This game has been out for decades at this point and we have never seen the CS actually on the defense. It is time for it. Time for a tonal shift.

It would not be bad, for the setting, if the CS were reduced to Lazlo in matters of power. It would not be bad if the CS were weakened to the point that the FoM could fight them on equal footing and potentially beat them.

We know that they can't be beaten though partially because also we are told ARCHIE Three wouldn't let that happen because he has plans for the CS.

Its just silly.

The books are written for there to be CS characters, then the CS should be in legitimate danger now and again.

[Alrik Vas]

The demons do pose a threat. Have you read the about the plagues, gear and new magic in Megaverse in Flames? Its not exactly a joke.

[HWalsh]

The demons do pose a threat. Have you read the about the plagues, gear and new magic in Megaverse in Flames? Its not exactly a joke.

I have seen some, but people are right, your average Dog Boy is beefier than most demons. I'm not going to believe there is a legitimate threat until I see the CS actually struggling, legitimately hurt, and/or actually lose.

[Marcus]

Reminds me of your last "discussion" about the same subject...
Your mind is made up, you don't want other opinions, why bother?

[HWalsh]

Reminds me of your last "discussion" about the same subject...
Your mind is made up, you don't want other opinions, why bother?

There are tons of opinions on the topic Marcus, and yes, I did forgot I made a thread like 2 years ago with similar concerns. Its also been 2 years and still... No progress on the front.

There is plenty of discussion on how it can happen, as well as discussion over what the repercussions of it can be. Considering the last time we got a major update was in, I believe 2002? Its been 14 years since the CS crushed Tolkeen...

Holy crap I didn't realize it was that long...

So yeah, I'm starting to feel that it is a bit... Over due.

Put in this way... My neice, in 2002, the same year of SoT's end... Was in diapers. This year she's starting High School. Ye gods. I think it's been longer than the actual time that has passed in universe. We started in what? PA 102? We just got to PA 109 in 2002? It is 2016 now.

Thanks for making me feel old.

[Killer Cyborg]

Reminds me of your last "discussion" about the same subject...
Your mind is made up, you don't want other opinions, why bother?

There are tons of opinions on the topic Marcus, and yes, I did forgot I made a thread like 2 years ago with similar concerns. Its also been 2 years and still... No progress on the front.

It might be more interesting for you to discuss how you think the future timeline of Rifts should play out.

There is plenty of discussion on how it can happen, as well as discussion over what the repercussions of it can be. Considering the last time we got a major update was in, I believe 2002? Its been 14 years since the CS crushed Tolkeen...

Holy crap I didn't realize it was that long...

So yeah, I'm starting to feel that it is a bit... Over due.

That's the key issue, I think--the Rifts timeline advances VERY slowly.
For further perspective, the fall of Tolkeen was set up back in 1990, 26 years ago, as if it was going to happen in the near future.
It's kind of like you're watching the first five moves of a chess match, and complaining that it's not over yet--or at least that no significant progress has been made for the white pieces.
Yes, this chess game has been going on for over two and a half decades, and from that perspective more things should be happening a hell of a lot faster... but they're not, and we're still only 5 moves in.
You complain that the CS needs to lose a fight (other than their war against Free Quebec, I presume), but how many significant fights have there even BEEN in Rifts, in the 14 years since the Tolkeen books came out?

[Killer Cyborg]

The CS needs to actually fight someone who can actually beat them. Someone at least who, looking at the raw numbers, actually stands a chance.

WHY?

Was that how The Empire in Star Wars was defeated?
Was that how Mordor was defeated?
Is that how this kind of epic tale of Evil Empires tends to go....?

And what happens AFTER that?

[Killer Cyborg]

I think it's been established that the Minion War isn't much of a threat.

Care to elaborate?

I am also curious about this. The biggest problem in the minion war is if you can find the hell pits and take them out soon after construction you could heavily blunt the invasion. The problem is the strongest defenders capable of doing this are highly regional actors. Knocking down the hell pits in the midwest/east coast of america is all find and dandy but what about the ones popping up in areas that nobody claims like africa/the outback of australia/ parts of asia/the arctic/the ocean floor you could think you have been winning locally only to find out there are hundreds/thousands of hell pits belching millions of minions in areas you would have had a hard time reaching even when there were no demon gysers.

Really the best bet for local defenders is stymie the demons/devils long enough and hope they get bored and give up or take the fight elsewhere. Neither the demon nor devil forces are that cohesive frustrate them long enough and it is possible that they may beat themselves.

There's a thread about this a few months back...

Let me know if you have a link.

[Proseksword]

Its also been 2 years and still... No progress on the front.

Bless them, but we are talking about Palladium, here. They don't actually release all that much product in two years time.

Further, it seems Palladium is going in the opposite direction with the Coalition States. If Heroes of Humanity is any indication, they're working the plot towards humanizing the CS, not making them lose.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I think it's been established that the Minion War isn't much of a threat.

Care to elaborate?

I am also curious about this. The biggest problem in the minion war is if you can find the hell pits and take them out soon after construction you could heavily blunt the invasion. The problem is the strongest defenders capable of doing this are highly regional actors. Knocking down the hell pits in the midwest/east coast of america is all find and dandy but what about the ones popping up in areas that nobody claims like africa/the outback of australia/ parts of asia/the arctic/the ocean floor you could think you have been winning locally only to find out there are hundreds/thousands of hell pits belching millions of minions in areas you would have had a hard time reaching even when there were no demon gysers.

Really the best bet for local defenders is stymie the demons/devils long enough and hope they get bored and give up or take the fight elsewhere. Neither the demon nor devil forces are that cohesive frustrate them long enough and it is possible that they may beat themselves.

There's a thread about this a few months back...

Let me know if you have a link.

Im out of town at Awesomecon right now, for work. Wont be back until next tuesday at the earliest.

Edit: easier to find than i thought it would be;

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=150235

[Killer Cyborg]

Thanks!!

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well the thing with the minion war is, that while written to be a huge threat and scary, and it 'could' be... Palladium has built in self imposed hobbles.

1) The "Minion war" has been going on for 1000s and 1000s of years. It's only hitting earth 'now' by a bit of accident and hand waving on how rifts work. If you read through it the demons and devils are only hitting earth now.. scattered, after a huge time delay and not at all as they'd intended. Which leads straight to number two.

2) It'd be a lot more dangerous to 'Earth' if.... every time the Demon's and Devils caught sight or wiff of one another they suddenly "BATTLED TO THE BITTER END!! NO MERCY!!! RARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR KILL KILL KILL UM ALL EVEN IF WE ALL DIE!!!

Which isn't a very logical war technique, but.. well they're Demons and Devils, but still. they're much more concerned with just slaughtering the other side, which lets humans (And everything else on earth) Duck and cover. Let team A and Team B Pound on each other till THEIR fight is done... and then jump up and swoop in on the battle damaged survivors.

Which.. makes it easier for earth's forces. If the two invading armies will fight to the death any time they encounter one another, then the third group (Earth/us) can let them do so and then just jump the bloody victors.

These limitations do go pretty far in hobbeling the bad guys. Even if there's a bunch of them. And yeah that's before touching on the "Megaversal hands off" policy for earth. (Which is mentioned surprisingly few times, if you don't know about it, you'd be hard pressed to find it. In fact.. I DO know about it but forget exactly where it's stated in the books. Just that it is.. at least once or twice)

[kaid]

The demons do pose a threat. Have you read the about the plagues, gear and new magic in Megaverse in Flames? Its not exactly a joke.

That the local super powers if they locate the pits fast enough should be able to keep local stuff under control the problem is without satellite recon there is an awful lot of wildnerness to cover and if you miss one being built until it gets fully established and its magical defenses up in place they become always open large portals to hell/dyvall that you can run entire armies through constantly. Even a handful getting setup in remote areas could become a xiticix like problem. They don't seem that bad overall unless you ignore them or don't know they are there and eventually you could wind up with so many that you simply don't have enough bullets/missiles/eclips to shoot them all.

I don't think their invasion will be ultimately successful but that does not mean the CS comes out intact or other major powers do.

[Shark_Force]

eh, they still wouldn't be much of a problem.

demons just aren't much of a threat in an army vs army context. they can be pretty scary in a 1v1 or a small group vs small group. but when you've got the means to detect that there's a hundred thousand demons coming from a certain direction, and you can just fly nearby and strafe them to death with SAMAS (or skycycles, or heck, WW II era fighter planes with ramjet rounds) from beyond their range without them being able to do much back to you, well... it gets a lot less scary. remember how the CS has something like 1.6 million SAMAS in mothballs, and another 1.6 million assigned to the ISS (plus any the ISS may have already had assigned to it).

and that doesn't even bring in options like long range missile bombardment, artillery, fighter/bomber jets, etc.

we even have canon numbers for the demons and deevils iirc, and they're appallingly low. now, xiticix. that's a scary threat. if *they* attack the CS, the CS will have problems, purely because there are such absurdly large numbers of them (well, ok, they also don't exactly suck individually either, but it's mostly about numbers). several hundred million xiticix on rifts earth already, as i recall... now *that* is scary. for every soldier the CS has, the xiticix have something like 100. something like that could plausibly threaten the CS presented in canon.

a few hundred thousand demons or deevils? if they had been standing in between the CS and tolkeen during the war, the CS would have steamrolled them without breaking a sweat on the way there (assuming even basic competence on their part, which admittedly is not a sure thing when we're talking about military leaders in the siege on tolkeen) and been wondering when the real fight was going to start.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

These limitations do go pretty far in hobbeling the bad guys. Even if there's a bunch of them. And yeah that's before touching on the "Megaversal hands off" policy for earth. (Which is mentioned surprisingly few times, if you don't know about it, you'd be hard pressed to find it. In fact.. I DO know about it but forget exactly where it's stated in the books. Just that it is.. at least once or twice)

Atlantis has a mention of it somewhere, in the vein of "why doesn't Splynncryth just take over Earth" explanation.

[Axelmania]

The average demon is weaker than a dog boy with an out of date laser rifle.

What species are we considering the 'average demon' for these purposes? I assume you mean a dog boy in MDC armor using a C-12 or something? That's out of date for humans but cutting edge for dog boys since prior to CWC they were usually limited to pistols and not even trusted with rifles.

A CS field army could stop 20-40x their own number of demons without even taking significant casualties. Demons have no way to deal with long range attacks, and no fast attack options.

I would think invisibility would qualify as a way of closing the range. The 'see the invisible' psionic has a range limitation, and not everyone has thermal sights and those who do won't have it on all the time. Even if Psi-Stalkers raise the alarm, demons can stay close enough to worry them but not close enough to be spotted, and make people lose sleep until they can slip through.

Powerlords are good for dozens or more demons each.

Again wondering what species you mean. Overlords are impressive enough and I could see them taking a demon, a Powerlord even sweeter and maybe 2-3, but dozens?

The way it is written, the Minion War is zero threat to earth. It may not feel that way to the inhabitants on the ground in a given location, but that's the long and short of it.

The population numbers we see for Hades don't predict possible future geometric growth we could see in Death Demons or how fast Demon Knights can be produced in Cormal.

Dyval doesn't have those resources but there is always the 'create minion' Deific Ability which seems sorely neglected for its potential. You can base it on ANY race (including a fast breeding one) and guarantee their loyalty and give them a new power. Tell me that's not exploitable. Well worth a body investment.

[HWalsh]

The only thing that makes the minion war even remotely threatening is the idea that, in theory, should anyone get a working Hell pit then they could gain access to, as stated in MiF, millions of troops.

If this number is at least 5 million then, and only then, would the CS be in trouble.

If it was a number akin to 10 million then they are a serious threat.

This is unlikely though as the CS jumped right at first contact. If it happens in an outlying area, however, then the CS could find itself in trouble as they've never not had a serious numerical advantage before.

[Supergyro]

The metaplot lost something important. Any metaplot should lead to interesting elements for the characters and given text in proportion to that.

The Juicer Uprising was a perfect example, it was just part of the book, it provided a set of adventures, and it added much flavor. As a very large number of parties have juicers in them (player favorite), it was a good idea.

The CS Tolkeen war was given *six* books for something that maybe deserved a small one.... Tolkeen PC's are not a big deal, Tolkeen was always very undeveloped, and why did we care again? The Minion war? Six even larger books devoted to something even further from the motivation of most PC's.

The older I get the more I find 'And then they have a big war!' to be kind of a cop-out in plotting. Rifts should instead focus on small but nefarious plots... the sorts of things that can cause a horrible amount of damage.... but can be stopped by, say, a small group of uniquely qualified and passionate individuals easily motivated by money and/or altruism.

[Axelmania]

Vampire Kingdoms had that, but I'd say we left that behind as soon as Atlantis came round because mass intercontinental slavery isn't small or nefarious. England might constitute a return to that (court politics) but then Africa gets worldwide in scope with the horsemen, WB5 is Europe-wide warfare with nothing particularly intridcate unless you want to assassinate Zerstrun (what's the point?)

WB6 might be intrigue since it's a lot of nations and border disputes and stuff. Maybe similar with WB7. WB8 gets world-scope with Lord of the Deep but has the possibility of isolated incidents with his cultists. WB9 gets a little more worldly than 6 due to stronger gods and aliens and nations. WB10 returns to WB1ish type stuff by focusing on a city's intrigue, WB11 gets continental, WB12 is wordwide again due to Nxla, WB13 is stately in a sense but also city-ish due to Lone Star facility intrigue....

[HWalsh]

The metaplot lost something important. Any metaplot should lead to interesting elements for the characters and given text in proportion to that.

The Juicer Uprising was a perfect example, it was just part of the book, it provided a set of adventures, and it added much flavor. As a very large number of parties have juicers in them (player favorite), it was a good idea.

The CS Tolkeen war was given *six* books for something that maybe deserved a small one.... Tolkeen PC's are not a big deal, Tolkeen was always very undeveloped, and why did we care again? The Minion war? Six even larger books devoted to something even further from the motivation of most PC's.

The older I get the more I find 'And then they have a big war!' to be kind of a cop-out in plotting. Rifts should instead focus on small but nefarious plots... the sorts of things that can cause a horrible amount of damage.... but can be stopped by, say, a small group of uniquely qualified and passionate individuals easily motivated by money and/or altruism.

MiF does that, talking about how small groups can stop the Hell Pits and that there are things small groups can do. One such example is to free the skull of Osiris from the demons hands which will allow the Lord's of Light to finally step in.