Defending against missile fire

[Axelmania]

The problem is that however 'clear' it seems, the statement is cut and pasted from the original rule-book where it was only talking about smart guided missiles.

Much like striking on 5+ that seems like something that got shuffled around without much thought. It would hold more weight if it were actually drawn up from scratch.

Its original context was "all smart missiles always strike the main body".

If you want to have it mean anything, it's reminding us that "all attacks always strike the main body" which is how all ranged combat works, until it doesn't.

It is trumped by Modern WP Skill which allows called shots. The limit no longer applies when Called Shot rules are introduced.

Just because there's some statement somewhere with "all" and "always" doesn't mean statements elsewhere can't contradict and override it.

Page 47 "full conversion destroys all psionic abilities" yes... unless you're a Mechanoid or a Coalition Psi-Borg
Page 113 "thighs and back of the head are always protected". ALWAYS? Yes... until MDC runs out and there is no more protection.
Page 346 "a power punch ALWAYS counts as two melee actions" Yes, unless you're an Ancient Master per the Conversion Book's rules.

[eliakon]

The problem is that however 'clear' it seems, the statement is cut and pasted from the original rule-book where it was only talking about smart guided missiles.

Much like striking on 5+ that seems like something that got shuffled around without much thought. It would hold more weight if it were actually drawn up from scratch.

Its original context was "all smart missiles always strike the main body".

If you want to have it mean anything, it's reminding us that "all attacks always strike the main body" which is how all ranged combat works, until it doesn't.

It is trumped by Modern WP Skill which allows called shots. The limit no longer applies when Called Shot rules are introduced.

Just because there's some statement somewhere with "all" and "always" doesn't mean statements elsewhere can't contradict and override it.

Page 47 "full conversion destroys all psionic abilities" yes... unless you're a Mechanoid or a Coalition Psi-Borg
Page 113 "thighs and back of the head are always protected". ALWAYS? Yes... until MDC runs out and there is no more protection.
Page 346 "a power punch ALWAYS counts as two melee actions" Yes, unless you're an Ancient Master per the Conversion Book's rules.

This argument might hold water....
If the line was not, and always has been that all missile fire hits on a 4+ and always hits the main body.
It never said that guided missiles hit the main body, nor does it say that non W.P. fire hits the main body.
If one is arguing that the rule is for non-W.P. fire then you have to account for the -5....which then makes the claim that it hits on a 4+ impossible as is impossible to roll a -1 on a d20

It also is pretty clear that the W.P. rules do not cover missiles as it is about 'pick up and pull the trigger' which is not how missiles work....

Yes, there are always exceptions to rules. But they require a statement that they are actually there.
Claiming that the rule does not actually ever apply is not an exception...it is claiming that the rule doesn't exist.

Also there is the problem that the rules clearly state that there is no bonus to strike from any W.P. and that the only time W.P. Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons applies is mini-missiles....meaning that there is no bonus from the WP and your claims that it provides a bonus are demonstrably false.

[guardiandashi]

you know there is one point that most of this discussion ignores which really simplifies the rules on missiles.
1 all GUIDED missiles always strike the "main body" of the target. Why is this relevant? because technically any guided missile makes its own attack not the player, or firer.

Unguided missiles can technically be aimed to strike something other than the main body, because they do not have any "pesky" guidance system to override the firer's desired strike location, instead they follow either a straight line (like any other ballistic or energy attack) or they follow a course to selected coordinates set at the moment of launch (I will grant some missiles may receive course corrections in flight from the controlling unit, but they aren't technically GUIDED missiles)

[Killer Cyborg]

The problem is that however 'clear' it seems, the statement is cut and pasted from the original rule-book where it was only talking about smart guided missiles.

Okay, I'm seeing it this time.
RMB 41, indeed under Smart Missiles, it does say "All missiles always strike the main body."
Which is different from saying "Smart Missiles always hit the main body."
And it's not just a cut-and-paste in RUE, because RUE says "Note: All missiles always strike the main body."
It's a rule that has been rewritten, not a rule that has been cut and pasted.
The fact that they rewrote the rule as a general note on missiles in RUE, choosing to remove the italics, choosing to make it a "Note:," and choosing to place it in the "Damage from missile strike" section instead of under Smart Missiles only highlights that it is (and apparently always has been) a rule for all missiles.

[Killer Cyborg]

you know there is one point that most of this discussion ignores which really simplifies the rules on missiles.
1 all GUIDED missiles always strike the "main body" of the target. Why is this relevant? because technically any guided missile makes its own attack not the player, or firer.

Unguided missiles can technically be aimed to strike something other than the main body, because they do not have any "pesky" guidance system to override the firer's desired strike location, instead they follow either a straight line (like any other ballistic or energy attack) or they follow a course to selected coordinates set at the moment of launch (I will grant some missiles may receive course corrections in flight from the controlling unit, but they aren't technically GUIDED missiles)

That would make sense, but the rule doesn't say "all Guided missiles."
It's a general note about all missiles.

[Axelmania]

This argument might hold water....
If the line was not, and always has been that all missile fire hits on a 4+ and always hits the main body.
It never said that guided missiles hit the main body, nor does it say that non W.P. fire hits the main body.

The statement was in a section about guided missiles and under a 'smart missiles' bulletin. Statements abbreviated to 'missiles' in that section are only talking about those kinds of missiles, not all missiles.

The same way "Tarn" used in a discussion already about Erin Tarn is not referring to all Tarns, such as her sisters.

Hitting on a 4+ is a remnant of the old rules over-ridden by the 8+ needed for ranged combat. 4+ would only make sense for smart missiles since they would be within melee range when they do their aiming, but a shooter would not.

If one is arguing that the rule is for non-W.P. fire then you have to account for the -5....which then makes the claim that it hits on a 4+ impossible as is impossible to roll a -1 on a d20

I'm not sure which -5 you're talking about, the difference between hitting on 5+ and 8+ is 3.

It also is pretty clear that the W.P. rules do not cover missiles as it is about 'pick up and pull the trigger' which is not how missiles work....

That depends on what missile you're talking about.

Plus that's also not how a lot of military/robot vehicle mounted weapons work either but they still use WP Heavy MD Weapons. Modern WP skills are not limited to held guns.

Yes, there are always exceptions to rules. But they require a statement that they are actually there.
Claiming that the rule does not actually ever apply is not an exception...it is claiming that the rule doesn't exist.

The rule is the ranged combat rules, missiles are ranged combat.

Also there is the problem that the rules clearly state that there is no bonus to strike from any W.P. and that the only time W.P. Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons applies is mini-missiles....meaning that there is no bonus from the WP and your claims that it provides a bonus are demonstrably false.

Where does it say no bonus to strike from WP?

Where does it say it only applies to mini-missiles?

You're mis-remembering the wording.

you know there is one point that most of this discussion ignores which really simplifies the rules on missiles.
1 all GUIDED missiles always strike the "main body" of the target. Why is this relevant? because technically any guided missile makes its own attack not the player, or firer.

Unguided missiles can technically be aimed to strike something other than the main body, because they do not have any "pesky" guidance system to override the firer's desired strike location, instead they follow either a straight line (like any other ballistic or energy attack) or they follow a course to selected coordinates set at the moment of launch (I will grant some missiles may receive course corrections in flight from the controlling unit, but they aren't technically GUIDED missiles)

Actually it's only smart missiles that make their own attacks. Guided missiles just have a guidance system to aid the shooter.

RMB 41, indeed under Smart Missiles, it does say "All missiles always strike the main body."
Which is different from saying "Smart Missiles always hit the main body."

It's abbreviation, it has to be read in context. Page 35 calls arrows/bullets "missile weapons", if I ignored the guided/smart missile context I could also read that to mean they always hit the main body too.

And it's not just a cut-and-paste in RUE, because RUE says "Note: All missiles always strike the main body."
It's a rule that has been rewritten, not a rule that has been cut and pasted.

Pasting it after "Note:" is still a paste job, that's not a rewrite when it remains unaltered and simply relocated.

The fact that they rewrote the rule as a general note on missiles in RUE, choosing to remove the italics, choosing to make it a "Note:," and choosing to place it in the "Damage from missile strike" section instead of under Smart Missiles only highlights that it is (and apparently always has been) a rule for all missiles.

I don't understand the basis for your retroactive something in parenthesis.

If it was always the rule, Kev wouldn't have written about destroying stuff other than the main body from missiles launched by PA and bots in NGR and CWC.

[Blue_Lion]

Here is where your debate breaks down. You claim it is left over cut and past in, but you just admitted to a change. If it was a left over cut and past as you claim it would not have been added after the word Note: by placing it after the word note shows a intentional change. Adding a single word to a rule counts as change/rewrite. A single word can change the meaning of things.

So it has to be read in a way that fits your belief and not the way it is written to be right? How is it a shorten form of a word or phrase to represent the whole? Such as USAR for United States Army Reserve, there is no stand in for smart/guided missiles just the word all missiles.(you are grasping at straws to fail to prove a point.) Missile weapons(weapon shooting projectile) does not mean the same thing as a missile(rocket propelled warhead).

You are referring to the flavor text on the GBK? It never states a rule saying it does a called shot, at best can be concerned or exception to the rule. But as I understand it there was some back and forth with Mini-missiles being able to do a called shot in the rules(think it was conversion book 1 or around there when they changed so mini-could do called shots as they where not guided). Current rules in RUE printed after CWC says that all missiles always hit the main body over rides any contradicting rules in earlier blanket rules in books.

**Unless you wrote the book you can not say for sure it was cut and past and not just typed with the same format. As it is not 100% identical but a change it is not left over cut and past.

[Killer Cyborg]

RMB 41, indeed under Smart Missiles, it does say "All missiles always strike the main body."
Which is different from saying "Smart Missiles always hit the main body."

It's abbreviation,

So you say, but I disagree.
Repeating your claim will not make me agree with you, not unless you can come up with additional evidence to support your hypothesis.

it has to be read in context.

Agreed, and I read it in context in the RMB.
From context alone, one might think as you do, that when it says "all missiles always," that it's referring to Smart Missiles because it's in the Smart Missile section.
On the other hand, Palladium is well known for sticking rules in odd places, where the context doesn't really matter or affect the overall rule.
So with the RMB, it's not entirely clear whether it's an oddly phrased rule that is only intended to apply to Smart Missiles, or whether it's a blanket rule that is misplaced in the Smart Missiles section when it should be somewhere else.

Now read the RUE rule in context.
It is NOT in the Smart Missile section.
It is in the Missile Combat section, under the "Damage from Missile Strikes" section. That's the context, and in order to be understood, the rule has to be read in context.

In your hypothesis, Palladium originally said "all missiles always" when they really just meant Smart Missiles, not all missiles. They were abbreviating "Smart Missiles" with "All missiles, saving themselves two letters. Then, later, when RUE was published, Palladium took this rule that only applies to Smart Missiles OUT of the Smart Missile section and stuck it in the general missile combat section.
They highlighted the rule with a bolded "Note:" preface.
They did not change the phrasing to make it clear that the rule was talking about Smart Missiles only.

In my hypothesis, Palladium originally said "all missiles always" when they meant" all missiles always. They tucked the rule away in the Smart Missiles section the way that Palladium tucks a lot of rules in odd places, because they seem to just write rules in whenever the rule occurs to them instead of organizing the rules in a truly coherent fashion.
Then, later, when RUE was published, Palladium took this tucked-away rule and brought it out into the open so that it wouldn't be missed or misunderstood.
They placed it prominently in the Missile Combat section, because it is a rule for all missile combat.
They highlighted it with a bolded "Note:" preface.
They did not change the phrasing, because the phrasing of the rule itself is perfectly clear.

I understand your claim.
I do not understand why you believe that your hypothesis is the more likely of the two.

If it was always the rule, Kev wouldn't have written about destroying stuff other than the main body from missiles launched by PA and bots in NGR and CWC.

You state that as a fact, when in reality:
-Palladium's fluff text doesn't always match the rules of the game.
-Kevin does not write every line of every book.
-Contradictions are not exactly unknown in Palladium's rules.

[Killer Cyborg]

Further investigating the hypothesis that the rule of "all missiles always strike the main body" is (and/or was originally) only applicable to Smart Missiles, I decided to sift back through various books to try to find the origin of the rule, and/or the original context, as well as any variants that might prove enlightening.

In the original Robotech book, the rule appears as it does in the RMB, only in Robotech the Reflex Missiles are the local version of Smart Missiles.
The rule does not seem to appear in the Mechanoids Trilogy, although those books are early works that are even more prone than usual to odd placement of rules, so I may well have missed something.

The original Heroes Unlimited (p. 44) says this:
ALL the missiles used by robots, and most other military forces, are self-guided missiles. Generally, most are preprogram­med to respond to specific images (video camera/sensor mounted in the nose of the warhead), or specific heat or radiation levels which clearly identify the enemy.
Conventional Missiles: No Bonus to strike.
Guided Missiles: +3 to strike. All missiles always strike the main body.

Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition has the following passages:
P. 80
Missiles do not enjoy the pilot's combined bonuses to strike. Since they are all self-guided, missiles are launched as separate units with their own bonus of +3 to strike. Mini-missiles are usually unguided and have no bonuses to strike, except possibly from the Weapon System skill.

P. 81
Under "Missile Notes"
2. All missiles are self-guided; +3 to strike. All missiles always strike the main body.

[Axelmania]

Here is where your debate breaks down. You claim it is left over cut and past in, but you just admitted to a change. If it was a left over cut and past as you claim it would not have been added after the word Note: by placing it after the word note shows a intentional change. Adding a single word to a rule counts as change/rewrite. A single word can change the meaning of things.

It CAN, but in this case it doesn't, "note" doesn't change anything, the original statement remains intact, it just got shuffled around.

Kind of unrelated, but in researching this, an interesting thing I just noticed in the RMB:
page 41 "the character has two options to avoid or minimize the damage of a massive missile volley; try to roll with the impact, taking half the normal damage, or shoot the missiles down"
page 42 "Special Missile Defense Tactic - If a missile can not be dodged, the pilot can sacrifice his robots arms"

Although one could argue that "has two options" not being "has only two options" does not exclude a 3rd option, arm-blocking is neither rolling with impact or shooting missiles down, so it is not an explicitly allowed option as a defense against a volley. Its description only specifies singularly "a missile" so block-sacrifice is not explicitly possible against more than 1 missile.

They changed this to "three options" in RUE 364 though, guess they caught it. Still says 'a missile' though.

Repeating your claim will not make me agree with you, not unless you can come up with additional evidence to support your hypothesis.

The evidence is its original context, which was talking about smart missiles.

Palladium is well known for sticking rules in odd places, where the context doesn't really matter or affect the overall rule.

That would be fine if the rule were more clearly present elsewhere, instead of being contradicted by gear with missiles designed to take out specific places.

So with the RMB, it's not entirely clear whether it's an oddly phrased rule that is only intended to apply to Smart Missiles, or whether it's a blanket rule that is misplaced in the Smart Missiles section when it should be somewhere else.

I guess if you're for ignoring the context of preceding text, you could say the same thing about RUE page 364 saying "ALL the missiles in the entire volley explode before impact! No Damage!!" since it also says "all" and we must therefore consider that possibility that it too is introducing a general rule in a strange place.

Now read the RUE rule in context.
It is NOT in the Smart Missile section.
It is in the Missile Combat section, under the "Damage from Missile Strikes" section.
That's the context, and in order to be understood, the rule has to be read in context.

Read in context, an area-effect attack hitting the main body doesn't prevent you from making called shots to other locations besides the main body. In Dimension Book 3 page 103 if a Doombringer made a called shot with laser cannons against a specific location on a planetside target, it could also hit dozens of main bodies with its heat damage radius too.

In your hypothesis, Palladium originally said "all missiles always" when they really just meant Smart Missiles, not all missiles. They were abbreviating "Smart Missiles" with "All missiles, saving themselves two letters. Then, later, when RUE was published, Palladium took this rule that only applies to Smart Missiles OUT of the Smart Missile section and stuck it in the general missile combat section.
They highlighted the rule with a bolded "Note:" preface.
They did not change the phrasing to make it clear that the rule was talking about Smart Missiles only.

RUE does not reliably change phrasing to make things clear. "Missile Volleys" on bottom-left of 364 is a good example. "a character can dodge .. three guided missiles .. it is impossible to dodge a volley of four or more missiles launched simultaneously". If they're talking about dodging all kinds of volleys then why begin specifically only talking about volleys of guided ones?

In my hypothesis, Palladium originally said "all missiles always" when they meant" all missiles always. They tucked the rule away in the Smart Missiles section the way that Palladium tucks a lot of rules in odd places, because they seem to just write rules in whenever the rule occurs to them instead of organizing the rules in a truly coherent fashion.
Then, later, when RUE was published, Palladium took this tucked-away rule and brought it out into the open so that it wouldn't be missed or misunderstood.
They placed it prominently in the Missile Combat section, because it is a rule for all missile combat.
They highlighted it with a bolded "Note:" preface.
They did not change the phrasing, because the phrasing of the rule itself is perfectly clear.

It isn't clear. Something like "you can't make called shots with missiles" or "you can't make a called shot against anything except the main body with missiles" would have been. This is the conclusion some people are reaching even though it's never been directly stated.

-Palladium's fluff text doesn't always match the rules of the game.
-Kevin does not write every line of every book.
-Contradictions are not exactly unknown in Palladium's rules.

Kev wrote NGR/CWC (WBs5+11). Anecdotes from NPCs are fluff but descriptions from the author of how power armor are used is not fluff, it is 100% canon. The meaning is very clear about how missiles can be used and it doesn't make sense to ignore that in favor of assumptions that exploding missiles hitting the main body means you can't aim them at other places.

P. 81
Under "Missile Notes"
2. All missiles are self-guided; +3 to strike. All missiles always strike the main body.

Missiles do not always strike the main body. I think we can agree on several situations where they don't:
*if they are not fired
*if they miss
*if they are shot down
*if they are dodged

Therefore we know it to not be an absolute rule, but instead be describing a subjective situation, a default scenario which is over-ridden by other logical rulings.

Earlier on page 79 of Heroes Unlimited 2nd under "Called Shots" there is text informing us more about this. It has a "Note: " where it talks about how any shot uncalled by default will strike the main body.

Obviously this too is wrong because even an uncalled shot won't hit the main body if it misses or gets dodged.

It's a matter of tiers of 'this is usually the way of things until it logically is not the way of things'.

There are grounds for applying WP Heavy MD Weapons to any missiles (moreso mini, but the other 3 are still on the table) and WP skills introduce the capability of making called shots in RUE, something no gun has the ability to do by default without the WP skill imparting the ability (although that did not used to be the case)

Missile rules are subject to change. Originally volleys could only hit a single target, DB3 pages 104 (Volley vs Volley) and 107 (Random Missile Assault) introduces new options, showing the rules are not set in stone and are subject to change by over-rides. Called Shot rules are such an over-ride.

For previous posters who kept insisting missiles don't fall under modern WP rules, Rifts Game Master Guide 32 "for modern -weapons; i.e. guns and missiles. The W.P. itself presents the only applicable shooting/strike bonus" (it's talking about not applying HtH bonuses, in this case it's not an absolute rule since obviously tech bonuses would also count, just in terms of HtH/WP stack)

Shadow Chronicles came out in 2008 three years after RUE and makes this clear. Page 238 defines a Called Shot as "aimed at a specific location within a larger target" and explains that Modern WP skills allow you to do this maneuver. Page 239 gives the example of doing Aimed Shot with a grenade launcher, showing area-effect explosives are not excludes. It also reiterates that Called Shot is a specific part of a larger target, such as the head.

Admittedly there is some inconsistency, since the end of 239 says you can't try an aimed shot with a burst while 240 mentions you halve strike bonuses when doing called shots with bursts...

240 also specifies ALL ranged attacks need 8+ to strike.

241 has the same situation we've been talking about, except the presentation of the critical phrases is more in proximity.

You know how in RUE the "All missiles always strike the main body" is on 362 while "including called shots" is down on 363 so they look all separate and stuff? All broken up with discussion of smoke bombs and damaged types?

Not here! 241 goes right from saying the thing about "all missiles" (same Note: and everything) to talking about Natural 20s with missiles including called shots. Even though it has told us repeatedly before that called shots are all about hitting things like the head instead of the main body.

242 references WP Heavy MD Weapons like RUE and also references WP Spacecraft Artillery. It still only implicitly includes mini-missiles which I understand some take as "exclusion by ommission", which I don't agree with since that kind of logic clearly doesn't fly in Ranged Combat when it might only say 'guns' or 'energy beams' even when it's talking about both.

Page 286 of Shadow Chronicles is interesting because of its lower-right disclaimer about no WP skills. It says when you lack a proficiency you can't make called shots, and then gives a list of weapons including "missile launchers". This obviously implies you CAN make called shots with missile launchers, and SC clearly establishes called shots are things you make on stuff other than the main body.

288 under the new WP Starship Artillery (good skill to port to Phase World I'd think) it mentions it can be used for "missile systems" and "missile batteries"

Page 42 explains about needing called shots to hit pilot compartments and pilots. This effectively means you can't ever kill a robot pilot with missiles (fear not Glitter Boys, you also have such a compartment) if it's not possible to make called shots with them, it's completely silly, which should warn people that their interpretation is in error.

Page 17 of New Generation from 2011 mentions the special bonus a Freedom Fighter gets when making called shots to the sensor eye of the invid. It's phrased "with any long-range weapon". Missiles are obviously long-range weapons, so if you couldn't make called shots with them to hit the sensor eye instead of the main body, this would've been pointed out. But instead it says "ANY".

Page 49 mentions how missiles (and particle cannon) can be fired from beyond Invid sensor range to "snipe" enemy mecha. When comparing the MLOP to the cannon and the advantages it lacks, it only specifies unlimited payload. Nothing about 'no called shots'.

Page 98 of Genesis Pits from 2012 has a bit focus on crippling ships with called shots by taking out sensors and stuff like that. No mention at all at an inability to use missiles to do this.

[Blue_Lion]

The fact that a word was added and it was moved is a change. Not only that it shows that it was kept on purpose and not just some left over text like you claim. The word note adds emphasis saying hey look at this and remember it kind of the opposite of accidental left over text like you claim it is. So this about your claim that the Note: all missiles always strike the main body- is left over text to be ignored. (We do not need to prove it was not copied and paste just that it was put there with intent and not left in by accident, that is proved by moving from guided missile section and adding a word to point it out.)

It says all charters have two ways to avoid/reduce damage so it is correct.
It then list a special case that does not apply to all charters so it is not a third way for generic charter but a special way to move the damage. The block sacrifice not avoid or minimalize it but moves the damage to the arms. So it is not a contradiction.

They context of the preceding text would only give meaning to the text if a substitute word was used such as they. The context does not magically change all to only smart missiles.

The original context does not prove it is all guided missiles that is you making an assumption based of bias. The word all means all not guided. The fact that it was in a section talking about smart missiles does not make the word all mean only smart missiles.

In RUE it was changed for clarity typically the more drafts you make of something the clearer it gets over time but by no means is it perfect.

Is this going to turn into every part of every thing takes damage debate because that was already failed to be proven multiple times. Regardless of how many parts something has it is still one thing and only takes damage one time not every where.

Gear can have special rules that override blanket rules. The exception that proves the rule. Example blanket rule for bikes is speed times X but there is a bike called mule is a bike that has a different speed, the special case does not change the blanket rule but is a stated exception tot he rule.

the rule is talking about up to three guided missiles so then it can be assumed that a missile in the same context without any special instructions is guided so it can be read by context that only vollies of four or more guided missiles can not be dodge. The note as a special word to identify what missiles it is talking about that the word is ALL the word removes it from any context about guided missiles making it a blanket statement.

I would think that saying all missiles always hit the main body is about as clear as you can be that they only hit the main body. In this case it is you who is jumping to conclusions by assuming missiles word like normal ranged weapons when they have separate rules for a reason.

Wait you are now using misses and dodges to prove it would not hit the main body. The rule is only talking about where it hits if it hits, by context of needing to make strike rolls you know it does not always hit. That does not change what it does when it hits. Misses do not count as hits, dodging, block defense and shotting down are things to prevent are something to prevent a normal hit.

Funny how you are now claiming context when you been ignoring how the context of missiles is separate from Modern weapon proficiency but this started by you claiming they are the same thing despite the context treating them diffrent.


****No matter how many times you restate that the context proves the statement is about guided missiles it does not change the basic rules of English. Or prove that all means guided.

[Killer Cyborg]

Axelmania,
When you refer to a book and page number, and perhaps quote a couple of words devoid of context, I cannot really tell what you're talking about.
If you'd like me to ubderstand what you're trying to convey, it would more effective if you quoted the relevant passages, as I (and other posters) often do.

[Blue_Lion]

Axelmania,
When you refer to a book and page number, and quote a couple of words devoid of context, I cannot really tell what you're talking about.
If you'd like me to ubderstand what you're trying to convey, it would more effective if you quoted the relevant passages, as I (and other posters) often do.

He is doing that to remove context intentionally. By removing the context it makes it hard to find what he is talking about without reading whole pages or if it even supports his case. (It is funny he can not prove that rifts missiles can make called shots with rifts books so he is now trying to prove rifts combat rules with other lines perhaps hoping that others do not have the book to check facts and disprove his false statements, perhaps that is why he is vague about what the part of the page he is using.)

RUE he is talking about the note:misslies always strike the main body. on page 362 fallowed by the natural 20 rule on page 363, saying the reference to called shots under the natural 20 rule means that missiles can make called shots.

Do not have second edition of HU. But is irrelevant because it is not addressing or saying missiles can make called shots. It is just looking at the rule for called shot in a different book not if called shots can be done with missiles.

His statement about ground for WP heavy md to any missile is weak as the book says only mini-missiles use it. As no bonus applies to other missile from skills mini missiles are an exception to the rule.

The GMG is a reference to a FAQ question.
"Are hand to hand bonuses combined with weapon proficiencies?
Yes for melee weapons like clubs, swords ......
No for modern weapons; i.e. guns and missiles. The W.P. itself presents the only applicable bonus."
So it was saying no strike bonus for hand to hand on modern weapons. from context I can assume they are talking about skills only as we know there are non skill based bonuses. It does not say WP applies to all, just that it does not stack with hand to hand, of the two only if applicable does WP bonus apply.

I do not have shadow cronicals so it hard to do his research and the way he post you have to read the whole page to find what he is talking about. But from checking the books he has he is leaving out context almost will fully.
A grenade launcher is not the same as missiles and does not use the same rules just because it is AOE. So it fails to prove that the statement missiles always strike the main body is false.

*** Note although the games are some what interchangeable there are setting based tweeks. So if a setting contradicts another's rule that is likely a setting based tweek.

[Axelmania]

Borg I plan to explain the Robotech quotes soon, and deal with Lion's criticism of my quoting them, but first would like to conclude this earlier line of discussion from the first post.

The fact that a word was added and it was moved is a change. Not only that it shows that it was kept on purpose and not just some left over text like you claim. The word note adds emphasis saying hey look at this and remember it kind of the opposite of accidental left over text like you claim it is. So this about your claim that the Note: all missiles always strike the main body- is left over text to be ignored. (We do not need to prove it was not copied and paste just that it was put there with intent and not left in by accident, that is proved by moving from guided missile section and adding a word to point it out.)

An editor can prefix a left-over line of text floating around with "note" for aesthetics without any kind of special meaning behind it. We also can't say for sure it was intentionally put into the "Damage From Missile Strike" section with intent. The reason for that is because of how everything got shifted around in the change from "Missiles" Rifts 41-42 to "Missile Combat" RUE 362-365.

Originally there were these eight headings:

1. Strikes: Guided Missiles
2. Damage From Missile Strike
3. Dodging Guided Missiles
4. Shooting Missiles
5. Special Missile Defense Tactic
6. Other Combat Terms
7. Missile Notes
8. Mini-Missiles

This became these eight:

1. Damage from Missile Strike
2. Missile Damage Notes
3. Missile Terms
4. Missile Strikes
5. Missile Volleys
6. Dodging Missiles
7. Shooting Missiles
8. Mini-Missiles

The statement was in 3 originally then 1 later. That an unknown editor figured a note about striking (for smart missiles) made more sense in the 'strike' section than the 'dodge' section (probably in the middle of exporting the smart missiles stats from DGM to the new "Missile Strikes" section) does not mean they necessarily intended to change a rule.

It says all charters have two ways to avoid/reduce damage so it is correct. It then list a special case that does not apply to all charters so it is not a third way for generic charter but a special way to move the damage. The block sacrifice not avoid or minimalize it but moves the damage to the arms. So it is not a contradiction.

The original statement is just "the character". I understand your approach, not everyone can block-sacrifice. The problem with it is that not everybody can dodge or shoot missiles either. No option is an absolute guarantee, each one is only in respect to those who can perform the maneuver.

They context of the preceding text would only give meaning to the text if a substitute word was used such as they. The context does not magically change all to only smart missiles.

No, just as "missiles" in a section about smart missiles means "smart missiles", saying "all missiles" refers to "all smart missiles".

To give a similar example, Robotech Shadow Chronicles 121 top-left mentions "all missiles or bombs" under Rate of Fire. "All" still is read in context. It doesn't mean all missiles or bombs in existence, or even all missiles or bombs on the vehicle. It's actually talking about all missiles or bombs from Wing Mounted Hardpoints, the 6th Weapon System of the VF-B9 plane. In spite of "all" it does not include being able to also fire from the Bombay (5) or MM-16 (4) or MM-20 (3) even though they also carry bombs and/or missiles.

The original context does not prove it is all guided missiles that is you making an assumption based of bias. The word all means all not guided. The fact that it was in a section talking about smart missiles does not make the word all mean only smart missiles.

Just to clarify, the original context is in a section about guided missiles, and the statement was on a line in that section about smart missiles. I am arguing that it only applied to smart missiles, not all guided missiles.

The context is clear there based on the placement. "All" must be read in context of where it is placed, what it pertains to. In the original book this was smart missiles only. It did not even apply to guided non-smart missiles.

In RUE it was changed for clarity typically the more drafts you make of something the clearer it gets over time but by no means is it perfect.

Clarity would be introducing something new and obvious like "missiles can only damage main bodies" or "you can't make called shots with missiles" or "you can't call a shot against anything but the main body.

What we have isn't clear, which is why it's easy to argue about it.

What happened here was a section got axed in half and its segments were absorbed by other new sections. Nothing in the statement actually got changed. It was floating by its lonesome and got prefixed by 'note' because editors sometimes do that. That doesn't make the statement clear in meaning or function or exhibit any clear intent of changing rules.

Is this going to turn into every part of every thing takes damage debate because that was already failed to be proven multiple times. Regardless of how many parts something has it is still one thing and only takes damage one time not every where.

I don't see anything in the text saying every part.

But what I do know in RUE is
1) you can make a called shot if you have a WP skill
2) WP skills can apply to missiles
3) you can make a called shot with a missile
4) there is nothing preventing you making that called shot to any location of choice
5) there is nothing preventing that location from taking full damage normally

All we have is a note which maybe means that the main body is also always hit. [url=http://i4.liverpoolecho.co.uk/incoming/article7097387.ece/ALTERNATES/s1227b/echzz090514martialarts-1.jpg a single attacking body can hit directly hit 2 things at once[/url]

Gear can have special rules that override blanket rules. The exception that proves the rule. Example blanket rule for bikes is speed times X but there is a bike called mule is a bike that has a different speed, the special case does not change the blanket rule but is a stated exception tot he rule.

Exceptions don't prove rules. If something is stated to be an exception then that is an indication that the way it operates is different from normal rules. I don't know what your bicycle example's parallel in this issue is.

I would think that saying all missiles always hit the main body is about as clear as you can be that they only hit the main body. In this case it is you who is jumping to conclusions by assuming missiles word like normal ranged weapons when they have separate rules for a reason.

They have additional rules, not separate ones. Missile rules are supplements to ranged combat, not "not ranged combat".

"they only hit the main body" would be clearer. I can hit more than one thing at once, so can a missile. It seems like you're making up some kind of "attacks can only hit one thing" rule which doesn't exist to support your assumption.

you are now claiming context when you been ignoring how the context of missiles is separate from Modern weapon proficiency but this started by you claiming they are the same thing despite the context treating them diffrent.

Wrong, from the beginning I have not "ignored" what you claim, I have addressed your claim and disputed it. Missile Combat is clearly part of the Ranged Combat bolding in the RUE table of contents, and missiles are clearly ranged modern weapons, there's no foot to stand on here.

Additional rules for a weapon with unique operators doesn't make those added rules the ONLY rules which apply. Everything from Ranged Combat still applies to missiles. You're still -10 to strike if blind and -6 to shoot wild if you're drunk and everything else.

****No matter how many times you restate that the context proves the statement is about guided missiles it does not change the basic rules of English. Or prove that all means guided.

The basic rules of English are to read things in context. I am not saying "all means guided", I am saying "all refers to 'all smart missiles'".

Here's an example of what I mean:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_F ... government
By ensuring that all states must have the same type of government (a republic), the Guarantee Clause is one of several portions of the Constitution which mandates symmetric federalism between the states.

When this says "all states" it is not referring to EVERY state. It does not refer to, for example, the Plurinational State of Bolivia, even though it is also a state.

The reason I know this is due to the prior context establishing what "all" is about, as "all U.S. states" is used in the previous sentence. The phrase "all states" is simply shortening that, just as "missiles" shortened "smart missiles" in a statement under the smart missiles' bullet.

[Killer Cyborg]

When they "cut and pasted" the rule, they didn't just add the bolded "Note:" prefix, but also removed the italics from "main body."

[Killer Cyborg]

Also, having a WP seems to be a necessary requirement for making a Called Shot, NOT a sufficient requirement.

[Blue_Lion]

Odd how despite you claimes of reading context you are failing at it.

So now we have a change and despite the fact the writer/editor made a change you are still insisting that it is left over text to be ignored. Do you have any prof that it is left over text or is it just your opinion?

Unknown editor I thought the editors was Kevin Siemba, Wayne Smith, and Alex Marciniszyn.(As I understand it edditors removed text, or marked for change not add text creating text is done by writers.)

You still making a claim that it was left over and not intended with no evidence, it was moved and changed so there was some effort put in putting it in the book.

the charter is universal term, while having robot arms is special case. It is in the context and of the text.

Again you are making a false statement. There are two section of separate but equal rules under ranged combat by your own words earlier.
There are no general listed ranged rules we have ranged combat broken down into two subsections with their own rules. We have rules for 1 Modern weapon proficiency 2 we have rules for missiles missiles. Both sections have separate strike rolls and rules for dodging. If the rules for missiles where supplementing the modern weapon proficiency they would not list separate and different strike rules.


Despite what you think by RAW missiles always strike the main body, and use separate strike rules than modern weapon proficiency.(Weather the writers intended for something to be in the book or if it was left over is irreverent to RAW unless it is removed with errata what is in the book is Rules as Written.)

So unless you have any evidence that it was changed by RAW missiles always hit the main body and strike on a roll above 4 (5-20). Modern weapon proficiency strike on a modified roll above 8.

[Blue_Lion]

When they "cut and pasted" the rule, they didn't just add the bolder "Note:" prefix, but also removed the italics from "main body."

And yet some how he wants us to believe that it was not changed just left over text when there is no evidence to support his claim. Never mind that once it is in the book as a rule it is RAW unless PB releases an errata to remove or counter it.

[Axelmania]

When they "cut and pasted" the rule, they didn't just add the bolder "Note:" prefix, but also removed the italics from "main body."

This happens automatically if you work on text blocks in notepad before pasting them in a new document. This is often done to neutralize things like font or size. The addition of text modifiers can serve as intent, but their removal is not absolute proof of it.

Also, having a WP seems to be a necessary requirement for making a Called Shot, NOT a sufficient requirement.

You need to meet the standard requirements like it not being a burst, so no called shots with 2+ or 3+ missiles (which of the 2 is another discussion) not sure what other restrictions would prevent this.

So now we have a change and despite the fact the writer/editor made a change you are still insisting that it is left over text to be ignored. Do you have any prof that it is left over text or is it just your opinion?

We may have different ideas on what the phrase left-over means. What is certain to me is that the text originally appeared in the first edition, appeared in the context of discussing smart missiles' chosen targets (who have their own attacks per melee, essentially AI) and in the new edition do not accompany any clear statements of limiting the ability to do called shots.

Unknown editor I thought the editors was Kevin Siemba, Wayne Smith, and Alex Marciniszyn.(As I understand it edditors removed text, or marked for change not add text creating text is done by writers.)

Unknown meaning I do not know which of the three made this change. It may also be Bellaire/Therrien/Ward/Wujcik if it falls into the scope of the Missile Combat section being changed due to "additional ideas". I don't know if the extent of Rosenstein/Cartier proofreader roles extended to making alterations like "Note: " for asthetics.

You still making a claim that it was left over and not intended with no evidence, it was moved and changed so there was some effort put in putting it in the book.

The statement was not changed. Aesthetic prefixing of stand-alone statements with 'note' or font neutralization are not evidence of intent. The sentence is intact.

the charter is universal term, while having robot arms is special case. It is in the context and of the text.

Having a gun to shoot missiles is also a special case. Being able to dodge is also special if you're piloting a Devastator.

Again you are making a false statement. There are two section of separate but equal rules under ranged combat by your own words earlier.

My describing an equal tabbing level does not mean I'm describing equal rules. A rule which modifies a former does not need to be on a sub-tab. As I pointed out earlier with "Hand to Hand Combat Skills" and "Robot (and Power Armor) Combat: Basic", being on a separate but equal tabbing level can still describe 2 concepts which stack.

There are no general listed ranged rules we have ranged combat broken down into two subsections with their own rules. We have rules for 1 Modern weapon proficiency 2 we have rules for missiles missiles. Both sections have separate strike rolls and rules for dodging. If the rules for missiles where supplementing the modern weapon proficiency they would not list separate and different strike rules.

Using your logic I can skip up 3 boldings on the table of contents and argue:

There are no generally listed Combat Rules. We have Combat Rules broken down into two categories with their own rules. We have rules for 1 "Hand to Hand Combat Skills" and 2 "Robot (and Power Armor) Combat: Basic". Both sections have separate bonuses and attacks per melee. If the rules for Robot Combat were supplementing Hand to Hand Combat, they would not list separate and different bonuses.

Except that sometimes stuff stacks and you're jumping to unsupported conclusions thinking that same-indent = no-stack.

The retention of 5+ strike in missile rules is over-written by the ranged combat rules which increase the requirement. There is every reason to view it as a case of sloppy cut and paste where the editor revamping the missile section did not notice this did not reflect the new 8+ rules. Alternatively, apply 5+ only to smart missiles since the AI is in hand to hand range modifying its aim at the last minute in a way you can't do when shooting a missile remotely, guided or not.

This is kind of moot anyway. You get NO bonuses to strike unless you have a WP skill, so +3 to strike from guided missiles basically just covers the 5+ to 8+ difference.

So take your pick: 5+ to strike on unmodified 1d20 or 8+ to strike on 1d20+3

Despite what you think by RAW missiles always strike the main body, and use separate strike rules than modern weapon proficiency.

No, Heavy MD Weapons explicitly applies to mini-missiles at least. Given that it benefits military vehicles/bots it's GM call if that includes military missile launchers too.

(Weather the writers intended for something to be in the book or if it was left over is irreverent to RAW unless it is removed with errata what is in the book is Rules as Written.)

Your whole argument's based on assumed intent anyway. You seem to think that if something hits the main body as a result of this rule that it can't hit what you made a called shot at because intentions.

That's not how Called Shot works. That statement is merely a bonus. If I do Called Shot at a Devastator's head with a short-range missile from a Flying Titan then I will Direct Hit that head and do full damage to it.

Your 'always hits the main body' text merely means that I also hit the main body in addition to the head, and I get a 2 for 1 deal. Pretty sweet.

It doesn't say "hits the main body INSTEAD" after all, so since there is nothing removing your Called Shot target, it must be 'hits the main body in addition to'.

once it is in the book as a rule it is RAW unless PB releases an errata to remove or counter it.

metric C-27 plasma cannon is awesome, agreed. From 1990 to 2005 best weapon on the planet bar none.

[Blue_Lion]

Umm....no I am saying the rule that says they always hit the main body means they can not make called shots to hit any where else. Why because the book says so. I am not assuming I am doing what the book says. Making a called shot is dependent on using the rules for WP and most missiles do not use the WP by the book.

So no I am not assuming you can not hit where you do a called shot I am saying the only allowed target is the main body because the book says so.

I do not see the point of your c-27 reference at the end in respawnce to me saying once it is listed as a rule it is a rule please explain the context.

The fact mini missiles get a bonus to strike does not mean that they use the rules for Modern weapon proficiency because the missile rules say it applies the bonus to mini missiles. Other missiles the book clearly states they do not get a bonus from any other source than the launcher or missile.

Nope you are now misapplying what I said from the very beginning.(Your table of contents straw man is irreverent) There are three set of combat rules 1 hand to hand 2 Modern weapon proficiency and 3 Missiles. These are the three places where you see rules on how to strike, dodge and the natural 20 rule. There are no rules listed in your robot combat but the bonus for the pilot skills. I am basing the content of the book the writing style and the context of each section.


On what you said to the change the rule is intact because it is still a valid rule. It was moved, had a note added and lost italicized so it was not accidentally copied and past with something else but added on its own. Your opinion that it is left over and should be ignored is invalid in RAW and not supported by any fact.

The statement always strikes the main body in it self limits called shots so making a second statement to say the same thing to make it valid would be redundant. As it stands it stops missiles from hitting anywhere other than the main body preventing called shots to anywhere other than the main body. The default way damage is applied to the location subject to the hit or strike you do not take damage to multiple locations from one hit, this is done for ease of record keeping, so a called shot to the head with a aoe weapon would damage only the head that would violate the always strikes (hits) the main body.
Note: hitting with a missile is called a strike by the rule for striking with missiles.
page 364
"Missile Strikes
as usal, a D20 is rolled to determine wheather a missile hits or misses. Any roll above a four (5-20) hits unless...."
"Roll to strike only one time for the entire volley....."

So it seams in this section strike=hit. Lets see other sections
Page 361 under Modern weapon proficiency
"To shoot some thing the attacker must roll 1D20 and needs an 8 or higher to strike..."
So again strike is used for hitting something.

Page 347 Hand to hand
"Strike: Anyone attempting to hit an opponent must roll to strike. AS with all combat rolls a strike is made with a twenty-sided die."
Page 339 Hand to hand
"Step 2: Attacker rolls to strike
The next step is for the first attacker to roll a twenty-sided die. If the result is a four or less (counting bonuses, the attacker misses). Any roll above a four will hit the opponent, unless the defender can parry or dodge the attack."

So in all three combat rules sections the term strike=hit.
So missiles always strikes the main body = missiles always hits the main body.
That makes it impossible to do a called shot to any where other than the main body.

[Killer Cyborg]

When they "cut and pasted" the rule, they didn't just add the bolder "Note:" prefix, but also removed the italics from "main body."

This happens automatically if you work on text blocks in notepad before pasting them in a new document. This is often done to neutralize things like font or size. The addition of text modifiers can serve as intent, but their removal is not absolute proof of it.

Not absolute, but proof nonetheless.

Also, having a WP seems to be a necessary requirement for making a Called Shot, NOT a sufficient requirement.

You need to meet the standard requirements like it not being a burst, so no called shots with 2+ or 3+ missiles (which of the 2 is another discussion) not sure what other restrictions would prevent this.

I'd say that "using a weapon that is incapable of performing a Called Shot" would be a restriction that would prevent a person with a Weapon Proficiency from making a Called Shot.

[Kelorin]

Question: According to RUE, most missiles in Rifts are unguided. If missiles are fired from far enough away that you potentially have more than three or four actions to shoot them, don't you also have time to NOT be where the missiles were aimed?

If the missiles are unguided then they don't have the option to change their flight path after launch or track their target. It should be a simple matter of getting out of the blast radius instead of bothering with holding your ground and shooting them.

Note: I also think that this means that any missile launchers that don't face forwards (like the ones on the back of the red type borg or the side facing ones on the Kittani Dinosaur robots in South America) functionally waste ALL of the missiles they fire since the missiles would fly backwards or to the sides respectively without being able to change course.

Note 02: There is another scenario in which missiles don't strike the main body, when the defender sacrifices his arms to parry the missile strike.

[Killer Cyborg]

Question: According to RUE, most missiles in Rifts are unguided. If missiles are fired from far enough away that you potentially have more than three or four actions to shoot them, don't you also have time to NOT be where the missiles were aimed?

lol
Yes, I'd say that's pretty fair, assuming that you detect the missiles in time.

Note 02: There is another scenario in which missiles don't strike the main body, when the defender sacrifices his arms to parry the missile strike.

True-ish.
Technically the block sacrifice that robots can do* is performed in the place of a dodge, and a dodge can only be performed if there is a successful strike roll.
So if the missile doesn't "strike" your main body, then you can't prevent it from doing so.




*I allow pretty much anybody to do this against missiles, actually. It just doesn't usually matter much in EBA or street clothes.

[guardiandashi]

Question: According to RUE, most missiles in Rifts are unguided. If missiles are fired from far enough away that you potentially have more than three or four actions to shoot them, don't you also have time to NOT be where the missiles were aimed?

If the missiles are unguided then they don't have the option to change their flight path after launch or track their target. It should be a simple matter of getting out of the blast radius instead of bothering with holding your ground and shooting them.

Note: I also think that this means that any missile launchers that don't face forwards (like the ones on the back of the red type borg or the side facing ones on the Kittani Dinosaur robots in South America) functionally waste ALL of the missiles they fire since the missiles would fly backwards or to the sides respectively without being able to change course.

Note 02: There is another scenario in which missiles don't strike the main body, when the defender sacrifices his arms to parry the missile strike.

nitpick I need to reread what RUE actually says about missiles. With that said unguided missiles are not actually "rockets" what that means is just because the missile isn't "homing" per say doesn't mean that it can't be fed a course (prior to launch) that involves maneuvering and course changes, it just means that its going to go to a predesignated location along a path that was setup prior to it leaving the launching units "control"

[glitterboy2098]

pretty much. you can assume that the suits that have oddly placed launchers program their missiles to skew over towards the target shortly after launch (similar to how a VLS system does), but after that the 'unguided' versions are programmed to fly to a set aim point. only the 'guided' ones would follow the target as it moves.

[Killer Cyborg]

With that said unguided missiles are not actually "rockets" what that means is just because the missile isn't "homing" per say doesn't mean that it can't be fed a course (prior to launch) that involves maneuvering and course changes, it just means that its going to go to a predesignated location along a path that was setup prior to it leaving the launching units "control"

Would you say the same about mini-missiles?

[Kelorin]

With that said unguided missiles are not actually "rockets" what that means is just because the missile isn't "homing" per say doesn't mean that it can't be fed a course (prior to launch) that involves maneuvering and course changes, it just means that its going to go to a predesignated location along a path that was setup prior to it leaving the launching units "control"

Would you say the same about mini-missiles?

I personally wouldn't. I consider mini-missiles to effectively be unguided rockets with no form of terminal guidance.

I can accept the static aim point explanation for unguided missiles. This explanation also reinforces my previous comments about the "get the hell out of the way" option making way more sense than the "try to shoot high speed explosives out of the sky before they get to me" option. Good news for jet fighters and flying power armor then, since there is little to no chance that a defending flying vehicle with aircraft speeds in a three dimension sky will be anywhere near where the attacker aimed those unguided missiles when the missiles finally arrive.

You might say that depending on your individual rate of speed (to get out of the way), number of missiles in the approaching volley, effective blast radius of said missiles, there still may be times where shooting the missiles might be the better choice. In game, the defender isn't going to automatically know what kind of missiles were fired at him/her. Are you going to take the additional actions to study the approach speed on radar, make a weapons systems roll to determine what type of missiles are heading your way, then decide to take shots at very fast, very small objects hoping to destroy them before they get close. (or, knowing that most missiles are unguided, just get away from where you currently are and hope the missiles aren't those rare guided missiles that will then continue to follow you.

Lets say the missiles fired at you are a volley 4 medium ranged HE missiles from a CS Enforcer.
The Enforcer fires from the edge of its radar range: 30 miles.
The missiles travel at a speed of 1200 mph, so they are going to travel (1200/60 = 20 miles per minute, 20/4 = 5 miles every melee).
OK, so the missiles are going to take about 1.5 minutes or 6 melees to get to you.
If you have a robot of your own with a similar radar range to detect the incoming missiles, that's plenty of time to get away from where the missiles where aimed.

If you don't have a friendly robot, powered armor or vehicle with any kind of radar or missile detection system, your options are psionic sixth sense (range: 90 ft. Hey guys, I sense dang... KABOOM) or randomly looking in the direction of missiles and hoping to spot them. (Hey guys, are those missiles I see coming? Yeah, I thin... KABOOM).

Let's say you are able to detect the missiles far in advance and for some reason still decide to shoot them.
RUE, pg 361 Bonuses & Penalties:
Target is moving -1 to strike, -1 additional per 50 mph (80 km) beyond 20 mph (32 km), and -1 for evasive action.
(1200 mph -20 mph = 1180 mph. 1180/50 = 23.6. Round down to 23).

Figure that the cross section of a missile is considered to be a very small target when facing you, so you're going to need an aimed called shot to hit one. Small targets on robots and vehicles tend to impose a penalty of between -2 and -4, so we will use the same for the missiles.

So every shot on the missiles will take between 2 and 3 actions (depending if you want to aim or not, I think you're going to need that +2 to strike) and you are going to be between -25 to -27 to strike the missiles.

Unless I've made some incorrect assumptions, why would you ever shoot the missiles?

[Blue_Lion]

With that said unguided missiles are not actually "rockets" what that means is just because the missile isn't "homing" per say doesn't mean that it can't be fed a course (prior to launch) that involves maneuvering and course changes, it just means that its going to go to a predesignated location along a path that was setup prior to it leaving the launching units "control"

Would you say the same about mini-missiles?

I personally wouldn't. I consider mini-missiles to effectively be unguided rockets with no form of terminal guidance.

I can accept the static aim point explanation for unguided missiles. This explanation also reinforces my previous comments about the "get the hell out of the way" option making way more sense than the "try to shoot high speed explosives out of the sky before they get to me" option. Good news for jet fighters and flying power armor then, since there is little to no chance that a defending flying vehicle with aircraft speeds in a three dimension sky will be anywhere near where the attacker aimed those unguided missiles when the missiles finally arrive.

You might say that depending on your individual rate of speed (to get out of the way), number of missiles in the approaching volley, effective blast radius of said missiles, there still may be times where shooting the missiles might be the better choice. In game, the defender isn't going to automatically know what kind of missiles were fired at him/her. Are you going to take the additional actions to study the approach speed on radar, make a weapons systems roll to determine what type of missiles are heading your way, then decide to take shots at very fast, very small objects hoping to destroy them before they get close. (or, knowing that most missiles are unguided, just get away from where you currently are and hope the missiles aren't those rare guided missiles that will then continue to follow you.

Lets say the missiles fired at you are a volley 4 medium ranged HE missiles from a CS Enforcer.
The Enforcer fires from the edge of its radar range: 30 miles.
The missiles travel at a speed of 1200 mph, so they are going to travel (1200/60 = 20 miles per minute, 20/4 = 5 miles every melee).
OK, so the missiles are going to take about 1.5 minutes or 6 melees to get to you.
If you have a robot of your own with a similar radar range to detect the incoming missiles, that's plenty of time to get away from where the missiles where aimed.

If you don't have a friendly robot, powered armor or vehicle with any kind of radar or missile detection system, your options are psionic sixth sense (range: 90 ft. Hey guys, I sense dang... KABOOM) or randomly looking in the direction of missiles and hoping to spot them. (Hey guys, are those missiles I see coming? Yeah, I thin... KABOOM).

Let's say you are able to detect the missiles far in advance and for some reason still decide to shoot them.
RUE, pg 361 Bonuses & Penalties:
Target is moving -1 to strike, -1 additional per 50 mph (80 km) beyond 20 mph (32 km), and -1 for evasive action.
(1200 mph -20 mph = 1180 mph. 1180/50 = 23.6. Round down to 23).

Figure that the cross section of a missile is considered to be a very small target when facing you, so you're going to need an aimed called shot to hit one. Small targets on robots and vehicles tend to impose a penalty of between -2 and -4, so we will use the same for the missiles.

So every shot on the missiles will take between 2 and 3 actions (depending if you want to aim or not, I think you're going to need that +2 to strike) and you are going to be between -25 to -27 to strike the missiles.

Unless I've made some incorrect assumptions, why would you ever shoot the missiles?

The get out of the way misses the that the person is leading for your movement the penalty for evasive maneuvers would be you trying to just move out of the way(for normal ranged attacks). So your get out of the way is what we call a dodge (by the RAW) and does not work on volleys of four "guided missiles".(All projectiles have a time it takes them to reach the target this includes bullets, there can be a lag of several seconds at max range.)

I disagree that a missile requires a call shot to hit.
You are not hitting a part of the missile but the missile it self, so you are not hitting a bullseye on the missile but the missile itself so called shot does not apply.(requiring a called shot would be worth mentioning in the rule for shooting them down.)

Normally missiles fly in straight line towards there target only turning for course corrections so they are not moving evasive. So the evasive penalty does not apply.

You also miss possibly of bonuses to offset part of that penalty, skill level equipment ext.

Your calculation also requires that the rule for modern weapons be used. If there was a weapon not subject to the penalty that hit 80% of the time then that weapon could be used against incoming missiles. For game balance you do need something to deal with high speed attack craft. We do know from old books that the preferred way to shoot down missiles is with missiles.

Missiles are written separate from modern weapon proficiencies and bonuses. It rewrites basic rules and use a different strike rule, that combined with how the section is written and needing to deal with high speed attack craft is why I believe that the penalties from Modern WP may not apply to missiles. (A way to use rules as written to avoid unwinnable situation.)

Others might pull something like the movement penalty only applies if the target is not moving straight at you do to not needing to lead that for movement. (but that falls more in the bound of house rule than RAW)

A mage could also use attack spells that do not require a strike roll to shoot down missiles such has a high level mage casting call lighting when it comes in range.

[Axelmania]

Umm....no I am saying the rule that says they always hit the main body means they can not make called shots to hit any where else. Why because the book says so.

The book does not say that we shoulder interpret 'always hits the main body' as 'can not make called shots to hit anywhere else'.

I am not assuming I am doing what the book says. Making a called shot is dependent on using the rules for WP and most missiles do not use the WP by the book.

Most missiles are fired by robots or military vehicles. This weaponry is covered by WP Heavy MD Weapons.

So no I am not assuming you can not hit where you do a called shot I am saying the only allowed target is the main body because the book says so.

The book does not say main bodies are the only allowed target.

It says always hits the main body. Always only means Only if there is only 1 possible option, and there is not only 1 possible option, because you can hit 2 things with a single object in a single attack.

I do not see the point of your c-27 reference at the end in respawnce to me saying once it is listed as a rule it is a rule please explain the context.

It has to do with the metric range being mistakenly listed for decades as kilometres instead of metres.

Nope you are now misapplying what I said from the very beginning.(Your table of contents straw man is irreverent) There are three set of combat rules 1 hand to hand 2 Modern weapon proficiency and 3 Missiles.

Correct, although the missiles set of rules is a SUB-set of the ranged combat rules which synergies with the MWP rules.

These are the three places where you see rules on how to strike, dodge and the natural 20 rule. There are no rules listed in your robot combat but the bonus for the pilot skills. I am basing the content of the book the writing style and the context of each section.

However the bonuses for robot combat stack with non-robot combat, so being in a separate section doesn't mean 'only use these rules, these can't stack with the ones in the previous section' as some seem to take it.

On what you said to the change the rule is intact because it is still a valid rule. It was moved, had a note added and lost italicized so it was not accidentally copied and past with something else but added on its own. Your opinion that it is left over and should be ignored is invalid in RAW and not supported by any fact.

Having "Note: " put in front of something isn't actually having a note added, it's having the label "Note" added, which is different. Kind of like how writing "apple" isn't literally an apple.

Lost italicization means nothing since this can happen without direct intervention through copy and pasting through notepad.

The statement always strikes the main body in it self limits called shots so making a second statement to say the same thing to make it valid would be redundant. As it stands it stops missiles from hitting anywhere other than the main body preventing called shots to anywhere other than the main body.

No, listing the added ability of always hitting something is not the same thing as removing the ability to hit things you normally can do via called shot aiming in a WP skill.

The default way damage is applied to the location subject to the hit or strike you do not take damage to multiple locations from one hit, this is done for ease of record keeping, so a called shot to the head with a aoe weapon would damage only the head that would violate the always strikes (hits) the main body.

Actually it would not violate it, so long as you made both the head and the main body BOTH the targets of a direct hit, which is completely legal, since there is nothing preventing 1 thing from hitting 2 things in 1 action.

Note: hitting with a missile is called a strike by the rule for striking with missiles.
page 364
"Missile Strikes
as usal, a D20 is rolled to determine wheather a missile hits or misses. Any roll above a four (5-20) hits unless...."
"Roll to strike only one time for the entire volley....."

So it seams in this section strike=hit. Lets see other sections
Page 361 under Modern weapon proficiency
"To shoot some thing the attacker must roll 1D20 and needs an 8 or higher to strike..."
So again strike is used for hitting something.

Simply means a higher to-hit number in ranged combat using modern WP. If using a smart bomb which doesn't benefit from the WP it will adjust its aim up until the point of impact and function like a hand to hand attack in respect to itself.

So in all three combat rules sections the term strike=hit.
So missiles always strikes the main body = missiles always hits the main body.
That makes it impossible to do a called shot to any where other than the main body.

Incorrect, that would be like saying that because I do a called shot with my spearhead to a robot's head that I can't also use the butt of my spear to hit the main body.

If I can hit 2 things with a single spear then I can hit 2 things with a single missile. Just so long as one of them is the main body, since that's all the text imparts.

Not absolute, but proof nonetheless.

Removal which can believably be passive and unintentional is not proof of intent.

I'd say that "using a weapon that is incapable of performing a Called Shot" would be a restriction that would prevent a person with a Weapon Proficiency from making a Called Shot.

Except that we've never been told directly that the weapons are incapable of making a called shot. That's an assumption people are making based on the unsupported premise that you can only directly hit 1 thing with 1 weapon with 1 attack.

These are examples to the contrary. One easy one is Splicers 205's "Reverse Stroke" where in a single attack 1 weapon can strike twice against two targets just like with paired WP. The Tail Sweep on RUE page 350 also does this. The bonus just means that after the missile scores a Direct Hit on whatever you do a called shot at that it also bounces off and Direct Hits the main body too. Or just consider it the statement of fact on how any uncalled shot works until called shots changes the default target from main body to something else, if that's too over-powered.

[Blue_Lion]

Umm you can not hit with the spear head to the head and the but to the body of a robot in one attack by the rules. So it is a failed example and you can not effectively use a spear head and but of the spear in the same attack.(The physics of such attack hitting the head and but of a spear at the same time would be a push will not do full damage.)

The fact that they pointed out special cases(moves) does not change the fact that an attack by default is to one target location. There is a move in ninjas and super spies that is a dodge and an attack that does not mean you can dodge and attack with out the move.

So Axelman this necro is failed attempt based on some non listed mechanic of the missile hitting more than one location per attack.

[Axelmania]

You can though, Megaversally, with the WP skill introduced in Splicers.

The default way attacks work doesn't matter since the text we're talking about modifies the default, we're just sorting out how.

My spending a couple weeks between board visits now and then isn't necro =/

[eliakon]

You can though, Megaversally, with the WP skill introduced in Splicers.

Only if you accept that there is such a thing as 'megaversally' Which is rather hotly disputed and in the absence of WoG[sup]1[/sup] on one side or the other likely to remain CDaU[sup]2[/sup] for the foreseeable future.

And no, this is not an attempt to start a Megaversalisit Vs. Lineist argument. Its just pointing out that assuming that one stance or the other is correct only works if that stance actually is correct... Which based on the sheer number of threads on the topic that have not gone anywhere... I doubt can be conclusively proved one way or the other honestly.



[sup]1[/sup] Word of God

[sup]2[/sup] Canon Doubt and Uncertainty

[Axelmania]

It's only one example, one from RUE is the Tail Sweep.

[Blue_Lion]

It's only one example, one from RUE is the Tail Sweep.

Special attacks as I said do not change the default combat moves. Those are attacks that say they can hit more than one targets and is an acceptation to the rule not the rule.

The line in missiles does not change how a hit is done just prevents hitting any where other than the main body.
I do not see the rules as written that that two subsections are the same, they rewrite basic rules. That also defeats the they are synergy because if that was the case repeating the natural 20 rule would not need to be done.

At this point if you assume that it is unsupported that an attack only hitting one location by default is unsupported you are operating from outside standard logic. (the fact that special moves tell if they can hit more than one target is support that they do not do that by defalt.)

Necro is bringing back a dead topic, it does not matter if the you have not visited the boards if the topic is dead when you post in it and it does not add anything new or relavent it is a necro.

[Axelmania]

What I'm arguing though, is that missiles are now an exception to the rule too, since they have the added ability to always hit the main body in addition to whatever you would normally hit with a called shot, since the ability to make a called shot or hit what you call was not taken out. Nothing at all is said about preventing from hitting other locations, just always hitting the main location.

Topic's not dead, it's just below 30% HP.

Are you saying every reply you've made adds something new? Seems to revisit the same ideas while I come up with new examples to counter them... we shouldn't go too off on this tangent though since it seems too focused on arguing each other instead of the topic.

[Blue_Lion]

No they do not. They do not say always hits the main body in addition to where they are aimed. But always hits the main body this prevents it from hitting any where else. Even if called shots are possible with missiles.

Nothing in the text even implies they hit more than one location per attack. The tail sweep you are presenting does not hit the same target twice but can sweep the legs of more than one target if they are withing a set distance. So this is a case of it hitting more than one opponent not more than one lotions on the target. In this case all charters are hit in the same location.

Nope at this point I am only restating things that have been said before in this or other threads. (other than posting what the attack does.)

[Axelmania]

Basically it says neither "in addition to" or "instead of" so we are taking it different ways. I'm of a "it has to say you can't take a called shot, since WP skills lets you make called shots, and PA are described as doing it with missiles" while you're of the "it has to explicitly say you hit two things or it's a substitution-override" approach, if I understand it right.

Two targets in 1 attack is 2 targets, whether that's 2 people or 2 hit locations.

If you allow called shots with HTH as some might ("the dragon bites your robot's head") then a dragon could probably manage it with a tail sweep. Sweeping the legs would make sense.

[Blue_Lion]

Basically it says neither "in addition to" or "instead of" so we are taking it different ways. I'm of a "it has to say you can't take a called shot, since WP skills lets you make called shots, and PA are described as doing it with missiles" while you're of the "it has to explicitly say you hit two things or it's a substitution-override" approach, if I understand it right.

Two targets in 1 attack is 2 targets, whether that's 2 people or 2 hit locations.

If you allow called shots with HTH as some might ("the dragon bites your robot's head") then a dragon could probably manage it with a tail sweep. Sweeping the legs would make sense.

There is no need for instead of because there the wording blocks hitting other location. By default unless an attack says other wise it hits one location. There is no justification in the books to assume that a missile hits more than just the main body, this has been debated before and all evidence from examples of combat to mechanics write ups do not support it.

NO there is a big difference between a cleaving style attack and hitting two spots on the same person as there is a difference between a bomb hitting the same person twice and hitting two separate people. The tail sweep as it reads is targeting the legs.

[Killer Cyborg]

Not absolute, but proof nonetheless.

Removal which can believably be passive and unintentional is not proof of intent.

Incorrect.
Besides, this is not that.

I'd say that "using a weapon that is incapable of performing a Called Shot" would be a restriction that would prevent a person with a Weapon Proficiency from making a Called Shot.

Except that we've never been told directly that the weapons are incapable of making a called shot.

Sounds like you agree that "using a weapon that is incapable of performing a Called Shot" would be a restriction that would prevent a person with a Weapon Proficiency from making a Called Shot.
Which means that no, just having a Weapon Proficiency alone is NOT sufficient.
Which means that no, arguing that because a WP can be used with missiles, they must necessarily must be capable of making a Called Shot is NOT a logical argument.

That's an assumption people are making based on the unsupported premise that you can only directly hit 1 thing with 1 weapon with 1 attack.

I have no idea where you're coming up with that, nor why you're talking about it.
The only assumption is that when Palladium writes "all missiles always strike the main body," that they mean "all missiles always strike the main body" as a rule.

Are you trying to claim that what Palladium's writers really meant to say was something like, "All missiles always strike the main body, because... you know... we're talking about the blast radius here, which strikes all body parts, so if you make a Called Shot to another part of the body, the main body is STILL struck. Gotcha! You didn't see that coming, did you?"

Because, if so, then my only response that argument is .

[Axelmania]

There is no need for instead of because there the wording blocks hitting other location.

What aspect of the wording blocks it?

By default unless an attack says other wise it hits one location.

True, but this missile text modifies it into a non-default situation. It either adds the main body as an addition direct-hit target or substitutes the main body as a sole direct-hit target when a called shot is made to another location. The former does not conflict with common sense or given examples of missile combat, the latter does.

There is no justification in the books to assume that a missile hits more than just the main body, this has been debated before and all evidence from examples of combat to mechanics write ups do not support it.

Called shots hit where they're called, missiles have been used to destroy boom guns and bot limbs, some means of damaging them with missiles has got to exist, these come from Siembieda's first dozen world books.

NO there is a big difference between a cleaving style attack and hitting two spots on the same person as there is a difference between a bomb hitting the same person twice and hitting two separate people. The tail sweep as it reads is targeting the legs.

Hitting 2 legs at once? =/

Not absolute, but proof nonetheless.

Removal which can believably be passive and unintentional is not proof of intent.

Incorrect. Besides, this is not that.

Sure it is. Aside from notepad interim, some people's dropdown menus have "copy as plain text" right below "copy", or "paste as plain text" below "paste", both of which can conceivably be accidentally clicked without intent. In some programs if you are using Ctrl+V to paste, if the shift key is depressed (I know mine sticks a lot) or in others the Alt key, it will also paste it as plain text. Editors might also be using something like PureText to neutralize and manually reset everything moved.

Sounds like you agree that "using a weapon that is incapable of performing a Called Shot" would be a restriction that would prevent a person with a Weapon Proficiency from making a Called Shot.
Which means that no, just having a Weapon Proficiency alone is NOT sufficient.
Which means that no, arguing that because a WP can be used with missiles, they must necessarily must be capable of making a Called Shot is NOT a logical argument.

Being able to make a called shot is the default for all ranged weapons unless we're explicitly told they can't do it.

I have no idea where you're coming up with that, nor why you're talking about it.
The only assumption is that when Palladium writes "all missiles always strike the main body," that they mean "all missiles always strike the main body" as a rule.

No, it was originally only a rule talking about how smart missiles worked, and got shifted around. I can't assume any intent behind a rule not made from scratch.

Always hitting 1 target doesn't mean you can't also hit other targets in the same go. Stuff like tail sweep, reverse strike, fire gout, all show the example of multi-target single attacks.

Are you trying to claim that what Palladium's writers really meant to say was something like, "All missiles always strike the main body, because... you know... we're talking about the blast radius here, which strikes all body parts, so if you make a Called Shot to another part of the body, the main body is STILL struck. Gotcha! You didn't see that coming, did you?" Because, if so, then my only response that argument is .

It could be that or that if you make a direct hit against something other than the main body via a called shot that the main body also takes full damage from a direct hit, because the missile hits both the called target and the main body simultaneously.

Missiles break up as they explode, after all, and they have some bulk to them, it's feasible for this to happen. When it comes to explosives, direct hits seem subjective too, like with grenades and land mines, they're always literal exlpode-on-contact-with-main-body even though damage functions as if it were.

[Killer Cyborg]

Not absolute, but proof nonetheless.

Removal which can believably be passive and unintentional is not proof of intent.

Incorrect. Besides, this is not that.

Sure it is. Aside from notepad interim, some people's dropdown menus have "copy as plain text" right below "copy", or "paste as plain text" below "paste", both of which can conceivably be accidentally clicked without intent. In some programs if you are using Ctrl+V to paste, if the shift key is depressed (I know mine sticks a lot) or in others the Alt key, it will also paste it as plain text. Editors might also be using something like PureText to neutralize and manually reset everything moved.

FYI, if you wait 20 days before responding to one of my posts, and you don't quote the context of the conversation, and your response doesn't indicate what we're talking about, then I'm not likely to bother scrolling back to find out.

Sounds like you agree that "using a weapon that is incapable of performing a Called Shot" would be a restriction that would prevent a person with a Weapon Proficiency from making a Called Shot.
Which means that no, just having a Weapon Proficiency alone is NOT sufficient.
Which means that no, arguing that because a WP can be used with missiles, they must necessarily must be capable of making a Called Shot is NOT a logical argument.

Being able to make a called shot is the default for all ranged weapons unless we're explicitly told they can't do it.

Again, we're told that they can't hit anything other than the main body.
Again, they could technically make a Called Shot to part of the Main Body.

I have no idea where you're coming up with that, nor why you're talking about it.
The only assumption is that when Palladium writes "all missiles always strike the main body," that they mean "all missiles always strike the main body" as a rule.

No, it was originally only a rule talking about how smart missiles worked, and got shifted around. I can't assume any intent behind a rule not made from scratch.

No, it wasn't. It was originally a rule about reflex missiles, which were the only kind of missiles that Robotech even addressed, and was perhaps addressing other missiles as well.
As of HU1, it was clearly talking about ALL guided missiles at the least, and possibly all missiles entierly
By HU2, it was made doubly clear that it's talking at the very least about all guided missiles (which was everything but Mini-Missiles."

If you're going to come back to the conversation, come back with something new to add that trumps previous information.

Always hitting 1 target doesn't mean you can't also hit other targets in the same go. Stuff like tail sweep, reverse strike, fire gout, all show the example of multi-target single attacks.

Right. That's probably it.

Are you trying to claim that what Palladium's writers really meant to say was something like, "All missiles always strike the main body, because... you know... we're talking about the blast radius here, which strikes all body parts, so if you make a Called Shot to another part of the body, the main body is STILL struck. Gotcha! You didn't see that coming, did you?" Because, if so, then my only response that argument is .

It could be that or that if you make a direct hit against something other than the main body via a called shot that the main body also takes full damage from a direct hit, because the missile hits both the called target and the main body simultaneously.

[Axelmania]

FYI, if you wait 20 days before responding to one of my posts, and you don't quote the context of the conversation, and your response doesn't indicate what we're talking about, then I'm not likely to bother scrolling back to find out.

You said "this is not that" and I took "that" to refer to "Removal which can believably be passive and unintentional" which I quoted.

Again, we're told that they can't hit anything other than the main body.

We're not told that, that is a conclusion being reached based on thinking that "always hits" means "only hits" while "also hits" would also work.

No, it wasn't. It was originally a rule about reflex missiles, which were the only kind of missiles that Robotech even addressed, and was perhaps addressing other missiles as well.
As of HU1, it was clearly talking about ALL guided missiles at the least, and possibly all missiles entierly
By HU2, it was made doubly clear that it's talking at the very least about all guided missiles (which was everything but Mini-Missiles."

I meant "originally in Rifts" but didn't specify that, and it is indeed good to bring up the other tech-combat RPGs it was used in as well. It would be interesting to establish a timeline to benefit this...

I have a 9th printing of Macross from 1992 which does mention Guided Missiles on page 37 though, so I'm not sure where you get this part about it only addressing that kind of missile, unless GMs were added in a later reprint and absent in earlier printings? This print was post-Rifts so it's possible. Can anyone confirm its absence in a specific earlier year/print run?

1992 (October) Macross (9th printing) page 38 "Reflex Missiles: +5 to strike, +4 to dodge; Two attacks per melee (until it hits). All missiles always strike the main body." (under the "Dodging Guided Missiles" section, all missiles were guided I think)
1993 (January) Heroes Unlimited Revised (9th printing) page 44 "Guided Missiles: +3 to Strike. All missiles always strike the main body." (also under "Dodging Guided Missiles", looks like they just took out the Reflex Missiles section from Robotech, although HU debuted August 1984 and Macross November 1986 so it might be the other way around... would need to check first editions of each book to know)
1993 (July) Macross (1st printing) page 38 the statement is moved after the "Smart Bombs" section preceding Conventional Guided Missiles, rather than following the "Smart Missiles" part after it. This might be where the bolded "Note: " statement is first used, indicating that the bolded note was added here (in respect to smart bombs), not in Rifts Ultimate Edition.
1997 (January) Rifts (10th printing) page 41 "Smart Missiles: +5 to strike, +4 to dodge, and has two attacks per melee (until it hits). All missiles always strike the main body."
1998 (March) Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition (1st printing) page 81 under "Missile Notes" note 2 says "All missiles are self-guided; +3 to strike. All missiles always strike the main body." In context this apply to mini-missiles since note 1 only refers to light/medium/heavy (not mini) and page 80 follows "are all self-guided" with "mini-missiles are usually unguided". This note would also not apply to a hypothetical non-guided short/medium/heavy (if they exist) since the context assumes 'all are guided' to be true and thus the statement only to apply to guided missiles.
2004 (October) Splicers (1st printing) page 220 same as Rifts 41, page 221 interestingly adds for mini-missiles "+3 to strike with an aimed or a Called Shot" if that resolves anything)
2005 (August) Ultimate Edition page 362:
both: "Note: All missiles always strike the main body." (listed in the Missile Strikes section, not specific to any type anymore)
2008 (March) Shadow Chronicles (1st printing) page 241 seems the same as UE, unless anyone spots a difference. Seems like cut and paste.

FAQ also seems to have substituted this as combat rule 28 between October 2001 and December 2002. This couldn't have been UE-influenced so my guess it is was a result of HU2 conversations, even though in 2004 the Splicer book did not reflect this attitude since it kept the statement presented under Smart Missiles rather than all missiles.

How this appears is that HU has been concistent about guided missiles hitting the main, while Robotech/Macross/Rifts limit this to the Reflex/Smart Missile/Bomb

Always hitting 1 target doesn't mean you can't also hit other targets in the same go. Stuff like tail sweep, reverse strike, fire gout, all show the example of multi-target single attacks.

Right. That's probably it.

Why not? It just can't apply to all missiles if that includes unguided mini-missiles since those have to be able to damage stuff other than the main body for what Kev wrote to make sense.

Are you trying to claim that what Palladium's writers really meant to say was something like, "All missiles always strike the main body, because... you know... we're talking about the blast radius here, which strikes all body parts, so if you make a Called Shot to another part of the body, the main body is STILL struck. Gotcha! You didn't see that coming, did you?" Because, if so, then my only response that argument is .

It could be that or that if you make a direct hit against something other than the main body via a called shot that the main body also takes full damage from a direct hit, because the missile hits both the called target and the main body simultaneously.

:lol:

Using laughter emoticons in a mocking matter during an argument are flamebaity enough but when that's ALL you do it's hard to view it as anything but.

I've yet to see any valid counter to this interpretation, since there's not been anything saying you can't make called shots with missiles (HU2 requires called shots to hit missiles and says you can shoot down missiles with missiles, Splicers in fact explicitly talks about making called shots with mini-missiles) or that called shots with missiles can only be called shots against the main body (which is silly since that's normally something you don't even need a called shot to hit)

[Blue_Lion]

Well he may have just used a lol but you waited 20 days to add nothing and are using logic that other find a joke. Over stretching and not proving your point. Simply put this thread is likely going to be locked to necro, as nothing was added and every thing you presented has already been countered or is not supported.

[Killer Cyborg]

FYI, if you wait 20 days before responding to one of my posts, and you don't quote the context of the conversation, and your response doesn't indicate what we're talking about, then I'm not likely to bother scrolling back to find out.

You said "this is not that" and I took "that" to refer to "Removal which can believably be passive and unintentional" which I quoted.

Not any clearer.

Again, we're told that they can't hit anything other than the main body.

We're not told that, that is a conclusion being reached based on thinking that "always hits" means "only hits" while "also hits" would also work.

Sure, because it makes sense for the guy insisting that the default of "WPs allow Called Shots as a default, therefore we need to be specifically told of any exceptions, in clear language to the effect of 'Missiles are an exception to the rule about weapons being able to make Called Shots," BUT on the other hand, we can ignore the default of weapons only hitting one hit location based on convoluted guesswork and unsupported hypotheses.

1992 (October) Macross (9th printing) page 38 "Reflex Missiles: +5 to strike, +4 to dodge; Two attacks per melee (until it hits). All missiles always strike the main body." (under the "Dodging Guided Missiles" section, all missiles were guided I think)

See any reason to believe that it wasn't cut-and-pasted from Robotech?

1993 (January) Heroes Unlimited Revised (9th printing) page 44 "Guided Missiles: +3 to Strike. All missiles always strike the main body." (also under "Dodging Guided Missiles", looks like they just took out the Reflex Missiles section from Robotech, although HU debuted August 1984 and Macross November 1986 so it might be the other way around... would need to check first editions of each book to know)

Meaning that if it's intended to any one specific kind of missile, it's "guided" missiles, not "smart."

1993 (July) Macross (1st printing) page 38 the statement is moved after the "Smart Bombs" section preceding Conventional Guided Missiles, rather than following the "Smart Missiles" part after it. This might be where the bolded "Note: " statement is first used, indicating that the bolded note was added here (in respect to smart bombs), not in Rifts Ultimate Edition.

The fact that they keep moving it around, and it ultimately ends up NOT in any specific missile section indicates that it's more of a general rule, or at least that it has become one.
Even if you want to go with them deliberately changing things, then you're looking at them starting off applying it ONLY to smart missiles, then widening the rule to apply it to guided missiles in general, and then in RUE--where they reverse their long-standing ruling that most missiles are guided as default--they slap the rule out in the middle, applying it to all missiles.

1997 (January) Rifts (10th printing) page 41 "Smart Missiles: +5 to strike, +4 to dodge, and has two attacks per melee (until it hits). All missiles always strike the main body."
1998 (March) Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition (1st printing) page 81 under "Missile Notes" note 2 says "All missiles are self-guided; +3 to strike. All missiles always strike the main body." In context this apply to mini-missiles since note 1 only refers to light/medium/heavy (not mini) and page 80 follows "are all self-guided" with "mini-missiles are usually unguided". This note would also not apply to a hypothetical non-guided short/medium/heavy (if they exist) since the context assumes 'all are guided' to be true and thus the statement only to apply to guided missiles.

Agreed, IF there is relevance in the first place to them sticking the rule in the Guided missile section, and there's no real proof of any meaning to that.
Falling damage used to be listed under the Climbing skill, but that didn't mean that it only applied to falling damage from climbing, especially not when the damage was moved out of the climbing skill section.
Palladium sometimes sticks universal rules in oddly specific places.

2004 (October) Splicers (1st printing) page 220 same as Rifts 41, page 221 interestingly adds for mini-missiles "+3 to strike with an aimed or a Called Shot" if that resolves anything)

Nah, although it does indicate that mini-missiles can make Called Shots (if only to the main body).

2005 (August) Ultimate Edition page 362:
both: "Note: All missiles always strike the main body." (listed in the Missile Strikes section, not specific to any type anymore)
2008 (March) Shadow Chronicles (1st printing) page 241 seems the same as UE, unless anyone spots a difference. Seems like cut and paste.
[/list]
FAQ also seems to have substituted this as combat rule 28 between October 2001 and December 2002. This couldn't have been UE-influenced so my guess it is was a result of HU2 conversations, even though in 2004 the Splicer book did not reflect this attitude since it kept the statement presented under Smart Missiles rather than all missiles.

That's a guess, but it might have also come about from conversations about Rifts.
Discussions about Area of Affect and Target Locations were big online back in that time period, IIRC, in the Rifts forums.

At some point, I asked KS about whether the blast radius from missiles hits other body parts, and he said something along the lines of "It depends on how deadly you want your game to be," which is strikingly similar to that FAQ answer.
While I'm suspicious of the sources of FAQ answers, the way that this answer uses "we," and the way it fits with what KS told me in person, makes me think that it's probably legit.

How this appears is that HU has been concistent about guided missiles hitting the main, while Robotech/Macross/Rifts limit this to the Reflex/Smart Missile/Bomb

I'm not buying that missiles work differently on that level in HU than they do in Rifts.
I would buy Palladium being inconsistent with their cutting and pasting.

Always hitting 1 target doesn't mean you can't also hit other targets in the same go. Stuff like tail sweep, reverse strike, fire gout, all show the example of multi-target single attacks.

Right. That's probably it.

Why not? It just can't apply to all missiles if that includes unguided mini-missiles since those have to be able to damage stuff other than the main body for what Kev wrote to make sense.

Define "what Kev wrote" in this context.

Are you trying to claim that what Palladium's writers really meant to say was something like, "All missiles always strike the main body, because... you know... we're talking about the blast radius here, which strikes all body parts, so if you make a Called Shot to another part of the body, the main body is STILL struck. Gotcha! You didn't see that coming, did you?" Because, if so, then my only response that argument is .

It could be that or that if you make a direct hit against something other than the main body via a called shot that the main body also takes full damage from a direct hit, because the missile hits both the called target and the main body simultaneously.

:lol:

Using laughter emoticons in a mocking matter during an argument are flamebaity enough but when that's ALL you do it's hard to view it as anything but.

I told you what my response would be at that kind of claim, and you made that kind of claim.
Any other response would be a lie.

I've yet to see any valid counter to this interpretation,

Just the fact that it's spun out of essentially nothing. There's no indication of it in the books, and no reason to believe it.
It's "maybe there's an invisible purple eagle behind the moon" thinking. It might not be disprovable, but it doesn't need to be--there's no reason to believe it.

since there's not been anything saying you can't make called shots with missiles (HU2 requires called shots to hit missiles and says you can shoot down missiles with missiles, Splicers in fact explicitly talks about making called shots with mini-missiles) or that called shots with missiles can only be called shots against the main body (which is silly since that's normally something you don't even need a called shot to hit)

Weigh the likelihood of the following options:
1. There is a hidden rule to the effect that making Called Shots to a body part means that the blast radius still hits the main body as well. This rule is not only never mentioned, but it conflicts with what KS and the FAQ have said about blast radii and body parts, but Palladium expects us to just understand this rule.
or
2. Palladium's rules are sometimes inconsistent, and sometimes they sometimes have bonuses or stats that shouldn't exist and/or don't make sense in context.

If you're not sure which is more likely, feel free to write KS a letter, send him a PM, and/or call him to just ask which is the case.
Personally, I'm confident that I already know.

[Blue_Lion]

If I recall the context on the first one that he has not clarified for you is the claim that the always hits the main body is a left over rule. It has been implied repeatedly and even said that "always hits the main body" is a left over rule and should be ignored. So he is claiming that any changes where done by formatting and not intent and its inclusion is a mistake. If I understand his point.

So it is pure speculation with no real support other than a similar line found in the game since its creation. With it not being removed in the errata(RUE is the only rifts book with posted errata) like other mistakes it is more likely still a valid rule that has been around since the creation of the game and not some accidentally left over rule that should be ignored.


Mini missiles use to be the only missiles capable of making called shots and all other missiles where considered guided but RUE changed it makes it so all missiles strike the main body, and only certain missiles are guided changes that. (The game rules changed over the companies life span.)

There are times when you need to make called shots to hit a target at all. If I am behind cover such as sand bags or large rocks then you need to do a called shot to hit me and not the sand bags even if your goal is to hit me the main body.

In this case the HU2 rule on requiring called shot to hit does not match the write up on how to shoot down missiles in RUE, the difference is significant so would be worth mentioning or it could be the rule was changed so it is different in RUE.

What we do have is a rule saying missile always hit the main body and nothing saying a missile hits any where else in RUE. Your hits the target and the main body is only not supported but inconstant with normal combat. Any time something hits more than one target they tend to say it can. There is no case I have seen of an attack hitting the same target in different locations.

[Axelmania]

Well he may have just used a lol but you waited 20 days to add nothing and are using logic that other find a joke. Over stretching and not proving your point. Simply put this thread is likely going to be locked to necro, as nothing was added and every thing you presented has already been countered or is not supported.

Why does the duration between replies matter? My computer takes a long time to start up so I've scaled back my use of internet and watch more TV instead. I introduced some new points (not 'nothing') and I acknowledge you are an other who perceives the logic as a joke. The point of there being ambiguity is proven and what is being settled is which of two possibilities to go with. I'll respond to you more if you will focus on particulars because I don't see how your sweeping generalizations further the discussion.

FYI, if you wait 20 days before responding to one of my posts, and you don't quote the context of the conversation, and your response doesn't indicate what we're talking about, then I'm not likely to bother scrolling back to find out.

You said "this is not that" and I took "that" to refer to "Removal which can believably be passive and unintentional" which I quoted.

Not any clearer.

You can be more clearer than "that" if you wish to be in the future, if you don't want me to have to use judgment to ascertain what 'that' pertains to.

Sure, because it makes sense for the guy insisting that the default of "WPs allow Called Shots as a default, therefore we need to be specifically told of any exceptions, in clear language to the effect of 'Missiles are an exception to the rule about weapons being able to make Called Shots," BUT on the other hand, we can ignore the default of weapons only hitting one hit location based on convoluted guesswork and unsupported hypotheses.

It's not guesswork. There are 2 known criteria for making called shots: having a ranged WP and making a single shot with the weapon associated with it, missiles fulfill both. We're never told missiles can't make called shots. Other Palladium Games directly (Splicers) or indirectly (HU) have missiles making called shots. Two world books (5,11) have missiles making called shots (Trooper on bot limbs, Killer on boom gun). You're told something hits the main body, with no 'only' or 'instead', ergo it's most logically an additional 2nd target, not a replacement one.

Or, if wanting reasonableness instead of literalness, you can take into account the placement of this statement in the majority of core games, and realize it doesn't refer to all missiles, in the very least unguided mini-missiles will be an exception.

1992 (October) Macross (9th printing) page 38 "Reflex Missiles: +5 to strike, +4 to dodge; Two attacks per melee (until it hits). All missiles always strike the main body." (under the "Dodging Guided Missiles" section, all missiles were guided I think)

See any reason to believe that it wasn't cut-and-pasted from Robotech?

I was too skimpy in this citation, this is from Robotech Book 1: Macross. I realize now with citing the Macross II RPG from 1993 (and I forgot the II on that...) I should not have abbreviated it, but had not initially remembered Macross so did not think of the discrepency while quoting it.

to clarify my oversight:

1992 quote from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robotech_ ... aying_game)
1993 quote from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macross_I ... aying_Game

1993 (January) Heroes Unlimited Revised (9th printing) page 44 "Guided Missiles: +3 to Strike. All missiles always strike the main body." (also under "Dodging Guided Missiles", looks like they just took out the Reflex Missiles section from Robotech, although HU debuted August 1984 and Macross November 1986 so it might be the other way around... would need to check first editions of each book to know)

Meaning that if it's intended to any one specific kind of missile, it's "guided" missiles, not "smart."

Smart missiles are not statted on that page, they may be absent from HUrevised and not added until HU2.

Best as I can tell, it originated with guided, then was moved to reflex in Robo, then renamed Smart in Rifts, then moved to smart bomb in Macross II (although functionally I don't think they stat a difference between a smart bomb and smart missile, I've only seen that in Rifts Mercs with the Air Castle Bomber)

1993 (July) Macross (1st printing) page 38 the statement is moved after the "Smart Bombs" section preceding Conventional Guided Missiles, rather than following the "Smart Missiles" part after it. This might be where the bolded "Note: " statement is first used, indicating that the bolded note was added here (in respect to smart bombs), not in Rifts Ultimate Edition.

The fact that they keep moving it around, and it ultimately ends up NOT in any specific missile section indicates that it's more of a general rule, or at least that it has become one.

No, it because prior to it's strange relocation in Ultimate Edition it wasn't presented generalized. Until then it was present with the most computerized less personalized missiles, which was guided in HU1, reflexM/smartM in Rifts (basically same thing, same stats, ie Chromium Guardsman and Glitter Boy) and smartB in MacrossII.

Even in Chaos Earth in 2003 it was still only by Smart Missiles (page 151) which seems interchangeable with Smart Missiles. Page 154 also has "+3 to strike with an aimed or a called shot" when discussing mini-missiles. If KS was including this with the intention of this only applying to called shots against the main body, it seems strange not to point that out.

Or we could realize it doesn't come up because mini-missiles aren't available as smart bombs, that just applies to 1 medium and some long range ones. Everything else wasn't limited by that text. Targetting the main body was the only option of smart bomb AI using their own attacks per melee, not pilots shooting missiles directly.

Even if you want to go with them deliberately changing things, then you're looking at them starting off applying it ONLY to smart missiles, then widening the rule to apply it to guided missiles in general,

Actually I think it may be the other way around since HU came out 84 and Robotech in 86, meaning the scope narrowed from guided to reflex. I just don't know for sure because I don't have original editions of either book so I don't want to make assumptions since these could have been changes from later printings.

and then in RUE--where they reverse their long-standing ruling that most missiles are guided as default--they slap the rule out in the middle, applying it to all missiles.

Strangely after 363 says mini-missiles are not guided it elaborates "and that's why they need a roll to strike" as if guided missiles didn't need to roll... feels like a word or two got left out eh?

I don't know if there's ever been a default... "all .. are self guided" as was for ones used by CS and most other high-tech forces. The "since they are all self-guided" bit was under "Strikes: Guided Missiles" so we can establish that as referring to self-guided only. The phrase "Conventional Guided Missiles" could mean that Smart Missiles are the UNconventional guided missiles, not that guided is the convention.

1997 (January) Rifts (10th printing) page 41 "Smart Missiles: +5 to strike, +4 to dodge, and has two attacks per melee (until it hits). All missiles always strike the main body."
1998 (March) Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition (1st printing) page 81 under "Missile Notes" note 2 says "All missiles are self-guided; +3 to strike. All missiles always strike the main body." In context this apply to mini-missiles since note 1 only refers to light/medium/heavy (not mini) and page 80 follows "are all self-guided" with "mini-missiles are usually unguided". This note would also not apply to a hypothetical non-guided short/medium/heavy (if they exist) since the context assumes 'all are guided' to be true and thus the statement only to apply to guided missiles.

Agreed, IF there is relevance in the first place to them sticking the rule in the Guided missile section, and there's no real proof of any meaning to that.

You can't selectively ignore the impact of relative placing. Ultimate 69 "A grunt who finds combat a thrill and a hero who strives to help the innocent and downtrodden." could otherwise be discussing the CS Grunt if we don't recognize the context that it is discussing Glitter Boy Pilots.

Falling damage used to be listed under the Climbing skill, but that didn't mean that it only applied to falling damage from climbing, especially not when the damage was moved out of the climbing skill section. Palladium sometimes sticks universal rules in oddly specific places.

Prior to it moving I would say it could apply to climbing only, if we had gotten higher damage elsewhere, since it might represent a trained climber slowing their fall a bit even as they skidded down a surface.

Matching the universal falling damage to climbing fall damage doesn't create canon conflicts like assuming missiles can't make called shots against guns or limbs, which is why it has to be looked at more critically.

it does indicate that mini-missiles can make Called Shots (if only to the main body).

Absent any rules preventing called shots from working normally (you can make them against anything) there's no reason to assume you can't do that with a missile.

2005 (August) Ultimate Edition page 362:
both: "Note: All missiles always strike the main body." (listed in the Missile Strikes section, not specific to any type anymore)
2008 (March) Shadow Chronicles (1st printing) page 241 seems the same as UE, unless anyone spots a difference. Seems like cut and paste.
[/list]
FAQ also seems to have substituted this as combat rule 28 between October 2001 and December 2002. This couldn't have been UE-influenced so my guess it is was a result of HU2 conversations, even though in 2004 the Splicer book did not reflect this attitude since it kept the statement presented under Smart Missiles rather than all missiles.

That's a guess, but it might have also come about from conversations about Rifts.

Could have come from conversations about any book, saying 'not from Ultimate' is no guess though since the change happened online 3 years prior to Ultimate's debut.

Discussions about Area of Affect and Target Locations were big online back in that time period, IIRC, in the Rifts forums.

At some point, I asked KS about whether the blast radius from missiles hits other body parts, and he said something along the lines of "It depends on how deadly you want your game to be," which is strikingly similar to that FAQ answer.

Leaving it up to the GM which parts (none to some to most to all) are hit makes sense. Some make more sense than others.

While I'm suspicious of the sources of FAQ answers, the way that this answer uses "we," and the way it fits with what KS told me in person, makes me think that it's probably legit.

I just realized something looking back, what got moved to number 28 was originally present in a briefer form as number 40.

What became "For missile combat, we have deliberately kept it simple so the answer is no only the main body takes damage." was originally "For missile combat, we have deliberately kept it simple." so I guess they realized no answer was given and they elaborated. What answer was originally intended was not clear though.

In this case July 8 2000 http://web.archive.org/web/200007081110 ... ombat.html is the earliest record I can find of the questioner for some reason being under the impression of "they all hit the main body" even though this was before Ultimate presented it stand-alone.

Which makes me think that rather than describing a rule, maybe they were setting up a scenario and asking what happened?

That also makes you examine the context of the answer eventually added in 2002. "No only the main body takes damage" is referring to the 1/2 damage from a blast radius, so it is not actually affirming you can't make called shots to other locations. It's effectively stating 'yes if they hit the main body then only the main body takes damage'.

Define "what Kev wrote" in this context.

Using missiles to target boom guns in World Book 5 and boom guns in World Book 11. Both are identified as standard sabotage tactics by Coalition (Glitter Boy Killer) and New German Republic (Super Trooper) power armor pilots. These illustrate an ongoing intent by Kev to allow SOME missiles to make called shots. Knowing he had that in mind, if he had it in mind to change that (which is a big game changer) we would expect it to be clearly spelled out and not left ambiguous.

Are you trying to claim that what Palladium's writers really meant to say was something like, "All missiles always strike the main body, because... you know... we're talking about the blast radius here, which strikes all body parts, so if you make a Called Shot to another part of the body, the main body is STILL struck. Gotcha! You didn't see that coming, did you?" Because, if so, then my only response that argument is .

It could be that or that if you make a direct hit against something other than the main body via a called shot that the main body also takes full damage from a direct hit, because the missile hits both the called target and the main body simultaneously.

:lol:

Using laughter emoticons in a mocking matter during an argument are flamebaity enough but when that's ALL you do it's hard to view it as anything but.

I told you what my response would be at that kind of claim, and you made that kind of claim.

I apparently missed the 'something like' part and was clarifying my argument was different from the one you presented. It's still a response best kept to yourself, it's not really a counter-argument.

Just the fact that it's spun out of essentially nothing. There's no indication of it in the books, and no reason to believe it.

There are 2 indications you can hit things other than the main body with missiles in world books 5/11 and 0 indications that you can *only* hit the main body.

It's "maybe there's an invisible purple eagle behind the moon" thinking. It might not be disprovable, but it doesn't need to be--there's no reason to believe it.

There's 2 reasons to believe it. Thinking "always hit the main body" is universally true has 0 reasons to believe it. It's what happens on normal attacks. Called shots aren't normal. Misses aren't normal. Shoot-downs aren't normal. Block-sacrifices aren't normal. Force fields aren't normal. All are exceptions where the main body isn't hit.

Weigh the likelihood of the following options:
1. There is a hidden rule to the effect that making Called Shots to a body part means that the blast radius still hits the main body as well. This rule is not only never mentioned, but it conflicts with what KS and the FAQ have said about blast radii and body parts, but Palladium expects us to just understand this rule.
or
2. Palladium's rules are sometimes inconsistent, and sometimes they sometimes have bonuses or stats that shouldn't exist and/or don't make sense in context.

Re 1, the FAQ actually only says that if you hit the main body it won't do 1/2 to body parts.

It doesn't say that if you make a called shot to body parts it won't do 1/2 to the main body.

Either could be true in isolation, they don't require for the inverse to be true. Main bodies are big and could shield smaller parts from damage. Smaller parts may be unable to shield the main body from damage.

If I recall the context on the first one that he has not clarified for you is the claim that the always hits the main body is a left over rule. It has been implied repeatedly and even said that "always hits the main body" is a left over rule and should be ignored. So he is claiming that any changes where done by formatting and not intent and its inclusion is a mistake. If I understand his point.

So it is pure speculation with no real support other than a similar line found in the game since its creation.

Similar line? The IDENTICAL line is present in Macross II. Compare page 38 of Macross II to page 362 of Rifts Ultimate Edition. The statement is identical:

They can actually dodge attacks directed at them, and turn around to attempt to hit a target if it msises, or if the target dodges the first attack. Note: All missiles always strike the main body.

Conventional Guided Missiles:

This was definitely only about smart, not guided, not unguided.

So yeah, it having been unintentionally shuffled into the middle of nowhere without intent to apply it more widely is very believable considering the other mistakes.

With it not being removed in the errata(RUE is the only rifts book with posted errata) like other mistakes it is more likely still a valid rule that has been around since the creation of the game and not some accidentally left over rule that should be ignored.

The rule has been around since he creation of the game in 1990, as a rule for smart missiles, as it was present in Robotech for alternatively-named (same stats) reflex missiles in the late 80s, and in HU for guided missiles in the early 80s.

Macross II was published after Rifts and so was a more current version of the Megaversal rules system, so that was the discernable source of the cut and paste considering the "Note: " resurface. Whereas stuff like Splicers and Chaos Earth drew from Rifts (not Macross) since it lacks the "Note: ".

Mini missiles use to be the only missiles capable of making called shots and all other missiles where considered guided but RUE changed it makes it so all missiles strike the main body, and only certain missiles are guided changes that. (The game rules changed over the companies life span.)

Mini-missiles are the only ones I've seen explicitly described as making called shots so I understand the assumption, but there was never any declaration I saw that said only they could make them or that other types could not make them.

There are times when you need to make called shots to hit a target at all. If I am behind cover such as sand bags or large rocks then you need to do a called shot to hit me and not the sand bags even if your goal is to hit me the main body.

When were these cover rules added though?

In this case the HU2 rule on requiring called shot to hit does not match the write up on how to shoot down missiles in RUE, the difference is significant so would be worth mentioning or it could be the rule was changed so it is different in RUE.

It's not really a "change" if you cut and paste rules from books other than HU2 to make Rifts Ultimate Edition.

What we do have is a rule saying missile always hit the main body and nothing saying a missile hits any where else in RUE.

That's fine if you want to treat it as a stand-alone book, but if you want it to exist in the same setting as Glitter Boy Killers and Super Troopers then you need to come up with a believable explanation for why we should ignore the canon on their standard tactics in engaging enemies.

World Book 31 in 2010 could have corrected this. It didn't forget the PA, it's acknowledged 3 times to exist (61, 155, 181) so it's not like we can pretend it doesn't exist anymore like the Sky King.

Your hits the target and the main body is only not supported but inconstant with normal combat. Any time something hits more than one target they tend to say it can. There is no case I have seen of an attack hitting the same target in different locations.

This is only identified as one possibility, the other is that 'all missiles' still only refers to smart bombs and it was misplaced. That's the likeliest.

But if we're going to ignore and obvious mistake and engage in conjecture, a "hits called and main" approach makes more sense than a "no more targeting legs and guns with mini-missiles" approach.

Examples don't cover every possibility, Ultimate isn't littered with them.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you don't hear back from me by June 5th, jog my memory.
But I'm done for May.

[Blue_Lion]

The time between replies matters because it is a subject that is out of most people mind after 7 days(not to mention 20). And no you really did not introduce any new material just rehashed stuff that has already been addressed. If no one has replied in over a week it typically means it is a dead topic.

Your options have been seen analyised and found lacking, not supported by rules as written.
(AS to the GBK the rules for missile combat have changed over time at one time mini missiles could do called shots that is no longer the case in RUE, RUE over wrote the combat rules. the two PA you are championing are statistical anomalies based off outdated combat rules.)

[Jefffar]

I should point out that the Rifts GMG explicitly over wrote the rules of all prior publications, including Coalition War Campaign.

[Axelmania]

September 2001, page 32 mentions that WP bonuses are used for "guns and missiles", page 39 says missile combat remains the same, 81 mentions you can't use Sharpshooting with mini-missile launchers since they fall under WP Heavy (or Heavy Energy, neither can get SS)

Page 137 lower-right begins discussion of Anti-Armor Dissolver Missiles, and mentions they can destroy "guns" or "external weapons", don't you normally need called shots to hit stuff like that?

GMG seems mostly to not have addressed anything.

It didn't include the mini-missiles for the GBK but then it was probably abbreviating what was in CWC and it accidentally left them out, we didn't find out how many until Xiticix Invasion.