Newest write up of paired weapons.

[SittingBull]

Are we reading it wrong or does dual striking now NOT cost you your automatic parry?

[Alrik Vas]

Newest as of...?

[drewkitty ~..~]

The RUE paired weapons text (page 346) in the combat lexicon specifically says using a dual strike means you loose the ability to auto-parry the opponents next attack.

EDIT: second RUE printing

The 2nd sentence lists the things that can be done with paired weapons.....
Strike and parry
dual strike one target
dual strike two targets
parry two attacks

The WP Paired Weapons goes into this in more detail, on;y adding onto what is said in the combat lexicon text.

[eliakon]

Which edition is being referenced? (potential stealth update here?)

[dragonfett]

Second RUE printing if you didn't see the edit.

[eliakon]

And which edition is SittingBull using?

[SittingBull]

And which edition is SittingBull using?

Page 327 of the RUe 1st printing.

[eliakon]

No. You still lose your auto-parry if you use the dual attack (...is vulnerable to attack....)

[SittingBull]

Is this something the rewrote in a later printing? Not that it will matter to my GM, I'm just curious.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Is this something the rewrote in a later printing? Not that it will matter to my GM, I'm just curious.

The changes made in the 2nd printing of RUE are detailed in the Cutting Room Floor.

[SittingBull]

Cut you post a link to this cutting room floor?

[drewkitty ~..~]

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/images/Do ... Eratta.pdf

[SittingBull]

Thank you but I see nothing about wp paired weapons in that pdf.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Losing your auto-parry when doing a dual strike has been standard all the way back to the days of TMNT and Hu1r which came out Looooooong before Rifts saw it's first printing.

[drewkitty ~..~]

From the RUE's Combat Lexicon's paired weapons.

User of paired weapons can strike and parry simultaneously, can do twin strikes against a single target or against a pair of targets, and can parry two different opponents at the same time.

However, a twin simultaneous strike with both weapons means losing the automatic parry and leave the character open to his opponent's next attack without benefit of a parry (dodge is optional but uses up a melee action/attack).

I quoted from the lexicon (page 346) cause there is less text to sort through for the relevant bits.

[Glistam]

So what I see is that you do lose automatic parry when you strike with both weapons at once, but you retain automatic dodge if you have it.

[dragonfett]

From the RUE's Combat Lexicon's paired weapons.

User of paired weapons can strike and parry simultaneously, can do twin strikes against a single target or against a pair of targets, and can parry two different opponents at the same time.

However, a twin simultaneous strike with both weapons means losing the automatic parry and leave the character open to his opponent's next attack without benefit of a parry (dodge is optional but uses up a melee action/attack).

I quoted from the lexicon (page 346) cause there is less text to sort through for the relevant bits.

From the way I am reading the second quote, it's treating a twin simultaneous strike the same as a simultaneous strike in that you are giving up a parry attempt for an attack. I do not see where it explicitly states here in these quotes that attacking with both weapons at the same time leaves themselves unable to parry.

[drewkitty ~..~]

If what is meant that the attacker (char A) using a dual strike option looses the Auto-parry when the target of the attack (Char B) chooses to simultaneous strike the attacker(char A) then the text directly concerning this situations is found in the simultaneous attack covers the duel strike action. Thus the answer to the question is not solely found in the paired weapons text.


Taking the paired weapons and simultaneous attack texts in combination, this means the Paired weapons wielder can choose to attack with all his weapons (loosing all ability to parry till his recovers from attacking) or only attack with a less then all their weapons holding the unused in reserve to retain the ability to parry other's weapon attacks. Even if it is the attacker's target making a simultaneous attack.
(Yep, I am doing some particular wording to also cover those races/heros with more then just two arms.)


I believe the 2nd passage I quoted was meant to mean that anyone that strikes with all their weapons in a single melee attack will not be able to parry anyone's attacks while they were making that attack and during their recovery from making that attack.

[SittingBull]

Simultaneous attacks were not a factor in this post. Just double attacking.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Simultaneous attacks were not a factor in this post. Just double attacking.

The this.....

However, a twin simultaneous strike with both weapons means losing the automatic parry and leave the character open to his opponent's next attack without benefit of a parry (dodge is optional but uses up a melee action/attack).

....covers it. Answering yes, they do lose the ability to parry just after their attack.

[SittingBull]

Simultaneous attacks were not a factor in this post. Just double attacking.

The this.....

However, a twin simultaneous strike with both weapons means losing the automatic parry and leave the character open to his opponent's next attack without benefit of a parry (dodge is optional but uses up a melee action/attack).

....covers it. Answering yes, they do lose the ability to parry just after their attack.

Well good to know its still around but since everyone in the game, I am in, has auto-dodge, its a mute point. Thank you all.

[Alrik Vas]

You wield 1 weapon, you attack with it. You can still make auto-parries.

You wield 2 weapons, you attack with both. Suddenly you can't make auto-parries.

Oh, but you can still dodge, and if you have an ability that lets you dodge without using an action, it's assumed you can use that as well.

Perfect sense, all of it.

[Zer0 Kay]

You wield 1 weapon, you attack with it. You can still make auto-parries.

You wield 2 weapons, you attack with both. Suddenly you can't make auto-parries.

Oh, but you can still dodge, and if you have an ability that lets you dodge without using an action, it's assumed you can use that as well.

Perfect sense, all of it.

Sure because everyone knows that the reason you can still parry after attacking with a single weapon is because:


Dread Pirate Roberts:

Then why are you smiling?

Inigo: Because I know something you don't know.

Dread Pirate Roberts:

And what is that?

Inigo: I am not left-handed.

Dread Pirate Roberts:

You're amazing!

Inigo: I ought to be after twenty years.

Dread Pirate Roberts:

There is something I ought to tell you.

Inigo: Tell me.

Dread Pirate Roberts:

I'm not left-handed either.

[Thinyser]

You wield 1 weapon, you attack with it. You can still make auto-parries.

You wield 2 weapons, you attack with both. Suddenly you can't make auto-parries.

Oh, but you can still dodge, and if you have an ability that lets you dodge without using an action, it's assumed you can use that as well.

Perfect sense, all of it.

Which IMO is why they put the simultaneous in there.

In my way of interpreting it if you use both your weapons to attack your attacker while he is attacking (AKA a dual "simultaneous" attack) Then yes you do lose the ability to parry against that incoming attack... but he also cannot parry (unless he had 2 weapons or a shield and did not attack with both weapons).

If you attack one person with both of your weapons or 2 people with one weapon each you retain your parry (unless they simul you) but they can defend with parries as well.

The real advantage with 2 weapon in my opinion is that you can parry with one weapon AND simultaneously attack with the other. This way you don't automatically accept the hit but the person you attack simultaneously cannot parry... unless they have an off hand weapon (or shield) also.

[Alrik Vas]

I more or less run it that way myself, but the rules themselves belong in free form poetry night.

[jaymz]

You wield 1 weapon, you attack with it. You can still make auto-parries.

You wield 2 weapons, you attack with both. Suddenly you can't make auto-parries.

Oh, but you can still dodge, and if you have an ability that lets you dodge without using an action, it's assumed you can use that as well.

Perfect sense, all of it.

This.

The only advantage to Paired Weapons by the write up is that if you dual strike a single target they cannot defend and you automatically do damage of a single attack OR you can attempt to strike two targets (though IIRC you do so at a penalty for the second target).

I can Attack and Parry with a single weapon.

I can Parry more than one attack with a single weapon.

In fact there is no where in the rules that limits how many times you can Parry at all EXCEPT if dual attacking using Paired Weapons.

Hell the use of the term of "Automatic Parry" is odd as well since the only game (meaning "current" in use editions as older editions are superceded by newer ones) I can think of that differentiates between Parry and Automatic Parry is Ninjas and Superspies who's combat system is significantly different enough from the standard of the games as to not be completely relevant.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Sure because everyone knows that the reason you can still parry after attacking with a single weapon is because:


Dread Pirate Roberts:

Then why are you smiling?

Inigo: Because I know something you don't know.

Dread Pirate Roberts:

And what is that?

Inigo: I am not left-handed.

Dread Pirate Roberts:

You're amazing!

Inigo: I ought to be after twenty years.

Dread Pirate Roberts:

There is something I ought to tell you.

Inigo: Tell me.

Dread Pirate Roberts:

I'm not left-handed either.

That is Ambidexterity (nat. or trained).
Nature is in the Lonestar book and it takes two allowing rolls.
Trained is in R18 in the after section of the Go Mental article.

[Zer0 Kay]

Sure because everyone knows that the reason you can still parry after attacking with a single weapon is because:


Dread Pirate Roberts:

Then why are you smiling?

Inigo: Because I know something you don't know.

Dread Pirate Roberts:

And what is that?

Inigo: I am not left-handed.

Dread Pirate Roberts:

You're amazing!

Inigo: I ought to be after twenty years.

Dread Pirate Roberts:

There is something I ought to tell you.

Inigo: Tell me.

Dread Pirate Roberts:

I'm not left-handed either.

That is Ambidexterity (nat. or trained).
Nature is in the Lonestar book and it takes two allowing rolls.
Trained is in R18 in the after section of the Go Mental article.

Seriously... Stop being serious

[Zer0 Kay]

You wield 1 weapon, you attack with it. You can still make auto-parries.

You wield 2 weapons, you attack with both. Suddenly you can't make auto-parries.

Oh, but you can still dodge, and if you have an ability that lets you dodge without using an action, it's assumed you can use that as well.

Perfect sense, all of it.

This.

The only advantage to Paired Weapons by the write up is that if you dual strike a single target they cannot defend and you automatically do damage of a single attack OR you can attempt to strike two targets (though IIRC you do so at a penalty for the second target).

I can Attack and Parry with a single weapon.

I can Parry more than one attack with a single weapon.

In fact there is no where in the rules that limits how many times you can Parry at all EXCEPT if dual attacking using Paired Weapons.

Hell the use of the term of "Automatic Parry" is odd as well since the only game (meaning "current" in use editions as older editions are superceded by newer ones) I can think of that differentiates between Parry and Automatic Parry is Ninjas and Superspies who's combat system is significantly different enough from the standard of the games as to not be completely relevant.

No. Untrained HtH does not get auto parry.

Single weapon:
Attack
Parry
Simultaneous Attack (no chance of Parry)

Dual Weapon:
Attack and attack
Parry paired weapon attack
Attack and parry
Simultaneous attack (THIS hand couldn't then also parry) and parry
Simultaneous attack and simultaneous attack (no chance of parry)

[Alrik Vas]

It's not talking about Simultaneous Attack, it's taking about hitting with both weapons at once. If it's your normal action, by the sense of fighting with 1 weapon, you should still have automatic parry. Yet the rules seem to disagree, which is the complaint.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Sure because everyone knows that the reason you can still parry after attacking with a single weapon is because:


Dread Pirate Roberts:

Then why are you smiling?

Inigo: Because I know something you don't know.

Dread Pirate Roberts:

And what is that?

Inigo: I am not left-handed.

Dread Pirate Roberts:

You're amazing!

Inigo: I ought to be after twenty years.

Dread Pirate Roberts:

There is something I ought to tell you.

Inigo: Tell me.

Dread Pirate Roberts:

I'm not left-handed either.

That is Ambidexterity (nat. or trained).
Nature is in the Lonestar book and it takes two allowing rolls.
Trained is in R18 in the after section of the Go Mental article.

Seriously... Stop being serious

*gets out the rubber chicken and bops ZK*

[jaymz]

You wield 1 weapon, you attack with it. You can still make auto-parries.

You wield 2 weapons, you attack with both. Suddenly you can't make auto-parries.

Oh, but you can still dodge, and if you have an ability that lets you dodge without using an action, it's assumed you can use that as well.

Perfect sense, all of it.

This.

The only advantage to Paired Weapons by the write up is that if you dual strike a single target they cannot defend and you automatically do damage of a single attack OR you can attempt to strike two targets (though IIRC you do so at a penalty for the second target).

I can Attack and Parry with a single weapon.

I can Parry more than one attack with a single weapon.

In fact there is no where in the rules that limits how many times you can Parry at all EXCEPT if dual attacking using Paired Weapons.

Hell the use of the term of "Automatic Parry" is odd as well since the only game (meaning "current" in use editions as older editions are superceded by newer ones) I can think of that differentiates between Parry and Automatic Parry is Ninjas and Superspies who's combat system is significantly different enough from the standard of the games as to not be completely relevant.

No. Untrained HtH does not get auto parry.

Single weapon:
Attack
Parry
Simultaneous Attack (no chance of Parry)

Dual Weapon:
Attack and attack
Parry paired weapon attack
Attack and parry
Simultaneous attack (THIS hand couldn't then also parry) and parry
Simultaneous attack and simultaneous attack (no chance of parry)

Yes and untrained person cannot parry for free yet in the case of rifts the use of the term automatic parry is still odd as THAT is explained under "parry" not automatic parry. (Its a copy paste issue from another game no doubt)

Also in teh VAST majority of cases characters HAVE HTH so it is largely a moot point

Furthermore as I pointed out the only REAL advantages to paired weapons is dual strike and strike two targets at once.

I can attack and parry with a single weapon if I have HTH. I am not limited in any way as to how often I can freely parry.

For the essentially automatic hit on a dual strike the damage to likely be dealt is not enough to make it a worth while tactic if it means losing the ability to freely parry the next set of attacks against you. Attacking two targets while possible is also not worth the loss of that free parry as those you attack get to freely parry (an attack that IIRC you are given penalties to strike for since you are attacking two people at once) and then can attack you forcing you to use an attack to defend yourself against each and every attack leveled at you until your turn comes around again. Hardly an advantage at all really.

Never mind that there are countless examples of paired weapon use in movies, television, and written word that never has someone using two weapons impaired ins such a way while fighting (attacking and defending) against multiple opponents the way this skill does.

[SittingBull]

Moral of the story, w.p. paired weapons is best used with automatic dodge.

[Alrik Vas]

That's a terrible moral, though. In finding a.meta-solution, you don't fix the problem, but only create a semi-exclusive work around that makes no sense.

If you can effortlessly dodge and effortlessly parry, except when attacking with 2 weapons you lose parry, how does it make rules sense that you can automatic dodge?

The logical thing would be that if both are automatic, they remain so regardless of conditions because they don't interfere with your action.

I understand that's not the rule, but still...You can over explain how it could work, yet the explanation will be circumstantial, which isn't a basis for for ground rules.

[SittingBull]

Its the moral of most players I have ever played with, I never abused it like they did though.

[Alrik Vas]

Well, abuse is subjective. After having done quite a bit of GMing lately, I don't find keeping automatic parry while using a dual strike to be unbalanced. Nor do I find automatic dodge while using dual pistols unbalanced.

My group doesn't always have someone with auto-dodge, but it has happened enough and though some weapons like phase pistols or phase swords can make it very powerful, it isn't like they're casting 2 spells in a single action or anything.

[jaymz]

Paired weapons (How I would do it)

Allows for a dual strike
Allows for the two targets at once
Parry with a free counter attack (WP bonuses only)

THAT is hte point to paired wepaons

The disadvantage?

You have to take paired weapons for the types of weapons you wish to use.

In fantasy you want to use long sword and short sword (ala wakizashi)? Better have wp long sowrd and wp short sword as well as paired weapons while specifyng the combination.

Just becaus eyou can use a long sword paired with a short does not mean you can use a pair of fighting sticks and vice versa.

[42dragon]

My groups have always played it similar to jaymz.

The big advantage of paired weapons was the Automatic (Free) Parry with one weapon and the simultaneous attack with the other, which unless the opponent also had paired weapons was essentially guarantee your attack would hit while you are keeping your normal defenses.

We also interpreted the rule as you needed to take WP paired weapons for each combination of weapons you wished to use (unless/until you got the skill for free within a HTH combat skill, i.e. Martial Arts at level 7 then it was good for all 1-handed weapons you had a WP for).

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip...
Parry with a free counter attack (WP bonuses only)

...snip

Good idea for a house rule and I see you stated the N&S rules about how paired weapons work.

However, this would fall under the Attack and parry option of paired weapons as a parry and simultaneous attack, but costing an APM.

[jaymz]

Thus why i specified a "free" counterattack (with only WP bonuses, or even no bonuses) that would not cost you an attack to do.

Not as effective as an actual simultaneous attack but allows for you to adjust as you go much better. Also something we see regularly in most cinematic scenes where paired weapons may be in use against multiple opponents.

[Zer0 Kay]

You wield 1 weapon, you attack with it. You can still make auto-parries.

You wield 2 weapons, you attack with both. Suddenly you can't make auto-parries.

Oh, but you can still dodge, and if you have an ability that lets you dodge without using an action, it's assumed you can use that as well.

Perfect sense, all of it.

This.

The only advantage to Paired Weapons by the write up is that if you dual strike a single target they cannot defend and you automatically do damage of a single attack OR you can attempt to strike two targets (though IIRC you do so at a penalty for the second target).

I can Attack and Parry with a single weapon.

I can Parry more than one attack with a single weapon.

In fact there is no where in the rules that limits how many times you can Parry at all EXCEPT if dual attacking using Paired Weapons.

Hell the use of the term of "Automatic Parry" is odd as well since the only game (meaning "current" in use editions as older editions are superceded by newer ones) I can think of that differentiates between Parry and Automatic Parry is Ninjas and Superspies who's combat system is significantly different enough from the standard of the games as to not be completely relevant.

No. Untrained HtH does not get auto parry.

Single weapon:
Attack
Parry
Simultaneous Attack (no chance of Parry)

Dual Weapon:
Attack and attack
Parry paired weapon attack
Attack and parry
Simultaneous attack (THIS hand couldn't then also parry) and parry
Simultaneous attack and simultaneous attack (no chance of parry)

Yes and untrained person cannot parry for free yet in the case of rifts the use of the term automatic parry is still odd as THAT is explained under "parry" not automatic parry. (Its a copy paste issue from another game no doubt)

Also in teh VAST majority of cases characters HAVE HTH so it is largely a moot point

Furthermore as I pointed out the only REAL advantages to paired weapons is dual strike and strike two targets at once.

I can attack and parry with a single weapon if I have HTH. I am not limited in any way as to how often I can freely parry.

For the essentially automatic hit on a dual strike the damage to likely be dealt is not enough to make it a worth while tactic if it means losing the ability to freely parry the next set of attacks against you. Attacking two targets while possible is also not worth the loss of that free parry as those you attack get to freely parry (an attack that IIRC you are given penalties to strike for since you are attacking two people at once) and then can attack you forcing you to use an attack to defend yourself against each and every attack leveled at you until your turn comes around again. Hardly an advantage at all really.

Never mind that there are countless examples of paired weapon use in movies, television, and written word that never has someone using two weapons impaired ins such a way while fighting (attacking and defending) against multiple opponents the way this skill does.

Only dual strike and strike two targets at once? You don't think a major advantage is simultaneous attack on a single weapon user while you get to still parry his attack? For some reason I really think that is better than the other two. Being able to automatically strike a person while still defending against their weapon.

[jaymz]

You get the same "advantage" from a the duel strike as you would while "simultaneous" attacking. Again not much of an advantage to me. Not for a full skill slot.

I am happy to agree to disagree about it *shrugs*

[eliakon]

Don't forget the fact that there are a lot of things that provide Paired Weapons for free....
Which means that if you have any of those H2Hs, Ambidexterity, etc....you don't have to spend the slot to get these options.
Which makes this a lot better since it is basically just 'if you do have two weapons here is what you can do with it'

[H.P. Hovercraft]

That's a terrible moral, though. In finding a.meta-solution, you don't fix the problem, but only create a semi-exclusive work around that makes no sense.

If you can effortlessly dodge and effortlessly parry, except when attacking with 2 weapons you lose parry, how does it make rules sense that you can automatic dodge?

The logical thing would be that if both are automatic, they remain so regardless of conditions because they don't interfere with your action.

I understand that's not the rule, but still...You can over explain how it could work, yet the explanation will be circumstantial, which isn't a basis for for ground rules.

My guess to PB's thinking on twin attacks is that thrusting/swinging/striking with two weapons at the same time throws the body more out-of-whack than a single strike, leaving the main body more or less defenseless against a counter-strike.

That's the only thing I can think of.........

.........but yeah, otherwise I get what you're saying (from both a logical and rules perspective).

[H.P. Hovercraft]

Moral of the story, w.p. paired weapons is best used with automatic dodge.

The only downside to this is that the average character's bonus to auto-dodge will be LESS than their bonus to parry!

Meaning that the char's ability to parry an attack is usually fairly substantial, while their bonus to auto-dodge is.........umm........dodgy.

[SittingBull]

Moral of the story, w.p. paired weapons is best used with automatic dodge.

The only downside to this is that the average character's bonus to auto-dodge will be LESS than their bonus to parry!

Meaning that the char's ability to parry an attack is usually fairly substantial, while their bonus to auto-dodge is.........umm........dodgy.

Every GM I have gamed with, that I have had exceptional PP on the character, and had auto-dodge also allowed the bonus from exceptional PP to add to your auto-dodge bonus. I can see your point also though, completely. No argument there.

[eliakon]

Moral of the story, w.p. paired weapons is best used with automatic dodge.

The only downside to this is that the average character's bonus to auto-dodge will be LESS than their bonus to parry!

Meaning that the char's ability to parry an attack is usually fairly substantial, while their bonus to auto-dodge is.........umm........dodgy.

Every GM I have gamed with, that I have had exceptional PP on the character, and had auto-dodge also allowed the bonus from exceptional PP to add to your auto-dodge bonus. I can see your point also though, completely. No argument there.

That is because that is how it works....
The rules are pretty clear that PP bonus is one of the things that does apply to Auto-Dodge. But since that same bonus would also apply to parry its still zero-sum. Even if you had a +6 bonus from PP, your parry would go up by 6 too....meaning that since your would still have more parry bonuses than auto-dodge bonuses your parry would be the better defense usually.

[glitterboy2098]

actually in MD settings that autododge has some good things going for it because of the limits of parry's.
mainly, that parrying MD attacks results in the item being used to parry taking damage
and the fact that energy blasts and other MD ranged attacks cannot be parried.

so while you might be able to parry better than you can dodge.. but parrying is less useful outside of SDC combat, while dodge and autododge is useful in both SDC and MDC combat.

[jaymz]

Except ranged md attacks can in fact be parried. Recheck rue on that. Its just very difficult to do (unless you are a ck then its only a -3)

[glitterboy2098]

Except ranged md attacks can in fact be parried. Recheck rue on that. Its just very difficult to do (unless you are a ck then its only a -3)

this comes from RUE. pg346, where the parry is covered. last sentence in their paragraph. "Energy blasts and bullets cannot (as a rule) be parried!"

so technically even SDC attacks of this type can't be either, but since in rifts most people have MDC armor of some type, they not usually a concern.

so any class that gets a parry vs bullets and energy blasts in their writ up is a rare exception superseding the normal rule