Squad Tactics: What Faction is Best/Who Does What?

[Alrik Vas]

We likely have an idea of what, at the squad level of infantry, what tactics most tech-based forces will employ. There might be a lot of suppressive fire until you're in grenade range, there might be careful movements with marksman covering, or the infantry might just be there to hold a position after they've called in artillery/airstrikes to clear it...other, etc, many more.

Though what about magic based forces? Psionic based? Those with an eclectic collection of super powers? Combined forces?

As a for instance, I'm curious what we imagine Kingsdale's squad tactics to be like, considering they have a lot of juicers, a scout corps and a magic corps, as well as air craft and light armor. Say you form a squad of 4 juicer riflemen, a medic, shifter, LLW, EOD, heavy gunner and comms tech. What do you imagine their squad based combat doctrine as?

I think it would likely center around short range combat at the squad level where the mages would be more useful with crowd control type spells, creating confused sitting ducks for the juicers to pick apart and then get hammered at the end by whatever the heavy has (likely a missile rifle or some sort).

We're not really talking about super special forces here, though as Rifts is a different environment than our own by far concerning combat, it can easily be said that what we might consider irregulars would be a very common mix there.

[Blue_Lion]

You probably should have left out your own personal labels.

Larson Brigade are suppose to have some of the best tactics.

(monkey boys is a rcc in CS loan star.)

[Alrik Vas]

Splugorth have kittani, ape.men, monkey boys.

Let's seriously pretend we don't understand. Thanks.

[Blue_Lion]

Splugorth have kittani, ape.men, monkey boys.

Let's seriously pretend we don't understand. Thanks.

How about you stop assigning random and not accurate titles to factions.

[Alrik Vas]

Parenthetical notation doesn't interfere with proper naming. If you aren't interested in contributing and only being picky, there's no purpose in posting other than to troll.

[Killer Cyborg]

Tactics are pretty much up to the GM and the gaming group. They're never really described officially, and they'd logically depend on what rules are being used.

[flatline]

Whomever has the best intelligence on the enemy.

[Glistam]

A.R.C.H.I.E. 3

[Alrik Vas]

A.R.C.H.I.E. 3

That's a good point, the.big bad brain might have some pretty wild tactics with his idea man at hand.

Tactics are pretty much up to the GM and the gaming group. They're never really described officially, and they'd logically depend on what rules are being used.

I think you're right, it can pretty much depend. Though I'd like input. The vote is for fun's sake. Really I want to know what people think. Who would use what and how, that sort.

Whomever has the best intelligence on the enemy.

Strategically I agree entirely. Though in sudden squad based engagements direct intelligence isn't always possible. Doctrines of combat are developed off intelligence, sure, but considering what we know about Rifts, there's so much that's wild and crazy that hardly anyone can know the majority off. Given that, best intelligence doesn't always mean useful intelligence.

[dragonfett]

I voted for the Splugorth mainly because I feel that of everyone there, they would have the most amount of experience in what works and what doesn't.

After them, I would have to say Kingsdale simply because they have the most amount of versatility. Everyone knows what the CS is going to do (tech, tech, and some more tech with just a dash of psychic combat abilities). Lazlo will primarily be magic (which, while is pretty versatile in and of itself, means you might have a better chance of defending against it). Lemuria I honestly don't know much about except that they are in the ocean, so if we were talking about underwater infantry, I would have voted for them hands down. On dry land I honestly can not see them being the most effective (that doesn't mean that they still can't be a threat on land, I just don't see them being able to perform as effectively). NGR is going to be much the same as the CS (not exactly the same, mind you). Russia I also don't know much about. The Federation of Magic would also be much like Lazlo with the notable exception that there are also going to be demons and other creatures of magic/supernatural creatures bound into service to mages. Both Japan options I am not sure about as I don't remember much from the book.

[flatline]

Whomever has the best intelligence on the enemy.

Strategically I agree entirely. Though in sudden squad based engagements direct intelligence isn't always possible. Doctrines of combat are developed off intelligence, sure, but considering what we know about Rifts, there's so much that's wild and crazy that hardly anyone can know the majority off. Given that, best intelligence doesn't always mean useful intelligence.

Even if no actionable intelligence has been provided to the squads, each squad is (presumably) alert and constantly developing its own intelligence about the area they're patrolling. Detecting the enemy before the enemy detects you is a tremendous advantage.

--flatline

[Alrik Vas]

surprise is amazing, flatline, and every force generally aims to get the drop on their opponent. I wouldn't call that a specialized tactic based on a particular force's capability. Though admittedly some would do it easier than others (magic invisibility is pretty easy to share around, for instance).

[auyl]

For me it's the Coalition. They have a lot of resources compared to other North American powers, save the Splugorth, as well as enough brain washed people they could throw at an enemy force.

[flatline]

surprise is amazing, flatline, and every force generally aims to get the drop on their opponent. I wouldn't call that a specialized tactic based on a particular force's capability. Though admittedly some would do it easier than others (magic invisibility is pretty easy to share around, for instance).

Exactly my point. Some squads may have abilities or equipment that (a) increases their chances of gaining actionable intelligence on their enemy and (b) makes it more difficult for their enemy to gain any actionable intelligence against them.

I've always found it amusing that CS forces, for instance, wear black armor which makes them super easy to detect visually during the day. You've got to wonder how often this gives their enemy the element of surprise since they likely detect the CS forces before the CS forces detect them.

In my version of the setting, CS forces wear camo when they leave their fortress cities just like everyone else.

[Alrik Vas]

Yes, everyone attempts to recon and make the right call depending on the situation.

It's when that decision is "attack", who uses the best tactics? You can even explain from your point of view and version of the setting. I'm open to all opinions here.

[dragonfett]

For me it's the Coalition. They have a lot of resources compared to other North American powers, save the Splugorth, as well as enough brain washed people they could throw at an enemy force.

In my opinion, this makes the CS infantry less effective than others. It doesn't make them less of a threat or danger, but they waste more resources (armor, ammo, manpower, etc.) to get the same job done as someone else.

Basically the poll seems to be asking who do we feel can do the most with the least amount of resources?

[eliakon]

I voted for the NGR. The reason is that they have centuries worth of actionable combat data, that is specific to the location that they are fighting in. They also have one of the best technological infrastructures on Rifts Earth, and to top it off they are willing to use (if not exactly enthusiastic about) magic, psionics, and super powers.
The result is that I imagine their forces are man for man, likely to be some of the most effective, disciplined, and experienced forces on the planet at their specific tasks.

[say652]

I voted Juicers.
Never underestimate the lethality of a large group of angry muscle heads hopped up on drugs.

[Mack]

Arzno, for a solid mix of tech and magic.

[Alrik Vas]

Let me clarify that this isn't about who is the most powerful nation, or who would win a war. It is, on the infantry level, who does their job the best?

[dragonfett]

Let me clarify that this isn't about who is the most powerful nation, or who would win a war. It is, on the infantry level, who does their job the best?

Which is why I voted for the Splugorth.

[eliakon]

Let me clarify that this isn't about who is the most powerful nation, or who would win a war. It is, on the infantry level, who does their job the best?

Thus my selection of the NGR.
Sure they may not be the best in any specific role....but they have had centuries to figure out how to do their jobs. They have had a chance to figure out exactly what does and does not work with their set up, and have depths of experience that are hard to beat.
Their new soldiers are trained by older veterans, who themselves were trained by veterans who.....
Thus they don't need to spend time figuring out what to do...they already likely have some contingency plan for it. If they need some resource their command will already know that it is important and likely be ready to supply it.
Sure they can be over matched in fire power, they can be out teched, they might be outgunned....but a battalion of their infantry is probably going to be able to deal with a battalion of most anyone else's infantry unless the opposition is very lavishly equipped or made up of very powerful individuals.

[SpiritInterface]

I am going to pitch a group you wouldn't normally think of...

The Vanguard.

A good mixed squad of Agents, Waylayers, Translocators, Savants and Layline walkers, you have a broad spread of skills and abilities.

[flatline]

I am going to pitch a group you wouldn't normally think of...

The Vanguard.

A good mixed squad of Agents, Waylayers, Translocators, Savants and Layline walkers, you have a broad spread of skills and abilities.

But their magical abilities can't be used for fear of being detected by the dog packs patrolling the Burbs. Their strongest advantages are hampered by the environment they inhabit.

--flatline

[Alrik Vas]

What are their protocols outside the burbs, then? They still tip-toe?

[Shark_Force]

not a huge fan of the short-ranged spellcaster idea.

some of a caster's best abilities require short range. many do not. impervious to energy is effective at any range, for example. regular invisibility is defeated by many standard optics incorporated into various devices, machines, vehicles, etc, but those have limited range. if someone is invisible and 100 feet away, you can spot them with thermal (unless they use superior invisibility in which case they can't attack you anyways without losing invisibility) or potentially a variety of psychic powers and spells. a person with a 4,000 foot range laser rifle who is invisible, good luck finding a spell, power, or piece of tech that can let you spot them at that range (of course, you can get systems that will let you detect the beam, but naturally that doesn't tell you are until after they've taken a shot, and gives them a precious few seconds to move before you're likely to be able to return fire... especially since those systems won't be able to track the beam all the way back to your origin point which likely means they're only getting an arrow pointing in your general direction that steps several hundred feet short of your actual location).

i view the short range options as something to use *if* short range happens, not as something to seek to use specifically. because yes, magic net is good, but it isn't worth marching through 1940 feet of lasefire, 3940 feet of railgun fire, and 5220 feet of mini-missile fire (not to mention the short range missiles, boom guns, etc), and even less worth it if the enemy is moving backwards while you try to close the distance. not even with the assortment of protective spells you could be using (you could instead use those spells while fighting from a distance) is it worth trying to close that distance.

the better solution is to pull out a (possibly TW) laser rifle with a long range and use your magic to destroy their ability to fight you. a ley line walker will use magic to win a fight, but i don't see them using magic net or wind rush to win a fight unless the fight either starts at short range or the enemy closes. using magic to win a fight doesn't have to mean you use magic to deal damage. *especially* at a squad level with mixed magic and non-magic troops, where it is incredibly unlikely for the doctrine to focus exclusively on one or perhaps two units out of 10, 20, or more.

[Killer Cyborg]

Let me clarify that this isn't about who is the most powerful nation, or who would win a war. It is, on the infantry level, who does their job the best?

In my games, the Coalition are generally THE best military.
Mostly because they're the ones (in North America) who are large enough to be a full-blown military instead of just a militia or defense force.
Technology allows for a uniformity of tactics that magic generally doesn't (as described in the world of Rifts, where spells are more than just skills to be handed out in basic training), so I see nations that have mages as part of their military as functioning more akin to adventuring parties or warbands, rather than as military units.
The CS has a lot of pre-rifts history to draw on (whether or not they make that public), and that includes a lot of military tactics and strategies that other nations won't even be aware of.

Also, the sheer amount of resources and manpower the CS has allows for tactics and strategies that other nations simply cannot even attempt. They have to worry less about ammunition expenditures and armor repairs than other nations, and their main battle rifles tend to have more ammunition with than most other weapons, while still having significant firepower.
And they have non-standard units that they can use in large numbers if need be--skelebots (who have unlimited laser ammunition as long as their rifles are connected) and Dog Boys.

[flatline]

What are their protocols outside the burbs, then? They still tip-toe?

Each Vanguard member only knows of a small number of other Vanguard members, so there will be no "standard" Vanguard squad. And remember, the Vanguard has maybe 1500 members at most (see this thread for a discussion of their disappointing numbers).

The Vanguard are the perfect antagonist for a small party of motivated and resourceful player characters because the player characters could potentially wipe the entire Vanguard out.

[Alrik Vas]

To be fair, it doesn't answer my question. Though I'm able to determine from it what I'd long assumed:

The vanguard aren't an army and their limited forces wouldn't consist of infantry.

[SpiritInterface]

I am going to pitch a group you wouldn't normally think of...

The Vanguard.

A good mixed squad of Agents, Waylayers, Translocators, Savants and Layline walkers, you have a broad spread of skills and abilities.

But their magical abilities can't be used for fear of being detected by the dog packs patrolling the Burbs. Their strongest advantages are hampered by the environment they inhabit.

--flatline

What are their protocols outside the burbs, then? They still tip-toe?

In the siege on Tolkeen they were very active and they are reported to number in the thousands.

[flatline]

What are their protocols outside the burbs, then? They still tip-toe?

In the siege on Tolkeen they were very active and they are reported to number in the thousands.

Much of what is written in SoT is inconsistent with other published material.

[RockJock]

How are you determining an "average" squad? CS is fairly easy to do, but what about Lazlo, what are their average squad like? The NGR, and Repulbic of Japan would both have a lot of firepower at the squad level in the form of borgs and PA.

The Megaversal Legion crossed my mind as well. Very "mechanized", with great tech and they aren't afraid to mix in magic either.

[Alrik Vas]

A regular infantry squad wouldn't have borgs, in my estimation. They are heavy infantry, or irregular forces.

Squad level is 8-10 soldiers, they include heavy weapons, communications, a point man, a medic and a lot of rifles.

Some forces replace heavy weapons with magic, or demolitions. About every 1 in 4 troop would be a minor psychic, by the rules.

Special Forces are a much different mix.

[say652]

Juicers heal.
Range of JA 11 is 4000 feet.

Mdc and Psionic versus exist to combat certain supernatural creatures.

Add in an Icarus Flight System or Hyperion Assassins and things get even more weighted in their favor.

[flatline]

I don't think juicers would be regular infantry.

Or have I missed the point of the thread?

[Alrik Vas]

No, even in the Juicer Liberation Army, since there are so many more fighters than just juicers, I doubt they'd count as regular infantry in their own group. Juicers are irregulars, probably best used as commando units.

[say652]

What was the voting for?

Standard human infantry squad best of the best.
Cossacks. Horseman, Trick Shooters with great occ bonuses and travel in packs.

[Alrik Vas]

Cossacks are mounted infantry and sometimes cavalry.

[say652]

Infantry soldier.
Body Armour.
Rifle.
Pistol.
Knife.
Grenades.
On foot.
No bionics,Juice, Horses?, or apparently specialized occs.

Again why the vote??

My Choice.
Soldati (Warlord infantry).
Reason, the specialized Occ's that accompany them.
Or
Vanguard Brawler Rcc(unless dbee counts as special team).
Reason, tough, decent bonuses, unlimited Bionics available to Occ without changing to a Bionic Occ.

[Alrik Vas]

Are there any large forces that are made up of vanguard brawler primarily?

[SpiritInterface]

Are there any large forces that are made up of vanguard brawler primarily?

they talk of company sized Waylayer units in SoT making raids.

[Alrik Vas]

Ooooh. That's pretty neat. Waylayer Unit doesn't seem like standard infantry, but at the company level, they probably took place in large battles.

I give it a pass.

[SpiritInterface]

Ooooh. That's pretty neat. Waylayer Unit doesn't seem like standard infantry, but at the company level, they probably took place in large battles.

I give it a pass.

Ok so who is your pick?

[flatline]

The professional armies are likely to be better trained than the irregular armies, so that would put the Splugorth, CS, NGR, and Japan at the top. Once you've narrowed it down to there, then it comes down to the quality of the equipment which, I think, puts the splugorth troops at the top of the heap on average.

Anyways, that's why I voted for the Kitanni.

[Svartalf]

Except Kydian Overlords are more likely to serve as line troops for the Splugorth. Kitanni, while definitely quite excellent troops would likely serve as special forces and secondary troops.

Remember, in Atlantis, there's two Overlords (not counting Powerlords) for every Kittani.

[Alrik Vas]

Ooooh. That's pretty neat. Waylayer Unit doesn't seem like standard infantry, but at the company level, they probably took place in large battles.

I give it a pass.

Ok so who is your pick?

I chose the NGR. They make heavy use of armored units in war, but their infantry in particular has a lot of advantages in their main battle rifle has excellent range and damage, and their infantry heavy weapons are v awesome. Plus as like Japan, they have much surviving war history and tactical know-how to draw on, they generally have the upper hand in training and discipline.

[Zer0 Kay]

What kind? Open terrain? Forrest? MOUT? With the CS and NGR and most other tech based militaries, the war machine would probably still dominate the open terrain.

I'd use Juicers 5-6
Psyker with auto defense group mindblock
Several support mages that cast enhancement magic including but not limited to, invis:superior, some sort of giant size spell, speed enhancement, and timeslip or TW devices that do these. Equipped with magic melee weapons.
A IFV modified to cary my command launched missile teleport system
A sniper team who are just there to take out the conveniently marked anti magic units.
The juicers get into possition after the magic sensors are taken out and suddenly appear amidst the troops. Any heavy equipment encountered have "missiles" teleported int them.

MOUT something that sees through walls and something that either uses in is: Superior or teleports team directly behind opponents in rooms.

[Alrik Vas]

And those are fine ideas, Zer0, but that's the specialist of special forces right there.

We're talking about dismounted, standard equipped.

[Svartalf]

For which, Kydian Overlords and Kittani soldiers do put the Splugorth in the first place.

[Zer0 Kay]

And those are fine ideas, Zer0, but that's the specialist of special forces right there.

We're talking about dismounted, standard equipped.

It is only special forces if that isn't the way your entire military doesn't work. A regular unit from Lazlo or Tolkeen would be considered special forces I any tech army or even any magic using kingdom where each unit is composed of a specific type of mage. But Lazlo esp. would have units made up that would seem pretty random and make a great way to get completely non related PCs into a group.