Storming Atlantis.

[Hotrod]

Of course, since ICBMs have to go exo-atmospheric, I have my doubts as to whether or not they'd work. I'm not even sure if the warheads would function. It's not like the Prozeks have done any nuclear testing in the canon books.

[Brayon]

Well Tolkeen showed us how to handle them. Open a Dimensional Rift in their path, & let the other world deal with it.

[Leo H]

Well Tolkeen showed us how to handle them. Open a Dimensional Rift in their path, & let the other world deal with it.

Valid point, somewhere out there are some confused people suffering from radiation poisoning.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Well Tolkeen showed us how to handle them. Open a Dimensional Rift in their path, & let the other world deal with it.

Valid point, somewhere out there are some confused people suffering from radiation poisoning.

actually swollowing rift opens a rift to somewhere in space, not on a planet, that's why it sucks in missiles and anything else in range.

[eliakon]

Well Tolkeen showed us how to handle them. Open a Dimensional Rift in their path, & let the other world deal with it.

Valid point, somewhere out there are some confused people suffering from radiation poisoning.

actually swollowing rift opens a rift to somewhere in space, not on a planet, that's why it sucks in missiles and anything else in range.

I was not aware that there was any official statement on where the rift lead other than "Whatever is sucked into the Rift is sent to a different dimension and lost forever."

It could be space
It could be random dimensions
It could lead to one specific prison dimension

We don't know, just that officially nothing ever comes back.

[Blue_Lion]

Well Tolkeen showed us how to handle them. Open a Dimensional Rift in their path, & let the other world deal with it.

Valid point, somewhere out there are some confused people suffering from radiation poisoning.

actually swollowing rift opens a rift to somewhere in space, not on a planet, that's why it sucks in missiles and anything else in range.

It is to another dimension believed to be devoid of life as well.

[Alrik Vas]

It gets dropped on an old one. Old one still doesn't wake up.

[eliakon]

It gets dropped on an old one. Old one still doesn't wake up.

In one of my games it was reveled that the Swallowing Rift spell was actually a plot by a cult to release the Titans.
Each time it is cast it pokes a hole in the barrier sealing Tartarus (which is where everything is dumped)

[Alrik Vas]

Good thing the CS saved the world, then.

[Ed]

We're never told how large nuclear warheads or other bombs are. Only the larger missiles have nuclear options, but even then we're never given dimensions.

I think we all assume nuclear bombs can be tiny because the reactors in power armor must be small, but fusion blocks are presumed to be nuclear yet only do relatively little damage to a small area.

Suitcase nukes that destroy multiple city blocks probably don't exist in the setting.

Ironically for that argument, using fusion blocks as the initiator would allow a smaller, yet more powerful bomb to be built.

Per CSN kiloton yield warheads are placed into Tomahawk missile frames, meaning the actual bomb portion could be placed into a large suitcase. Especially if the shielding is left off. It would be heavy, but nothing a Borg couldn't carry.

[Q99]

One thing to do is tip off Atlantis to the existence of Cibola. The soul worm is opportunistic enough that if Splynncryth looked vulnerable he may chip in, and even if not Atlantis is likely to spend some forces going after it.

[Kelorin]

Every discussion about taking down Splynncryth's Atlantis always comes back to the trillions of additional troops old One Eye has in reserve off-planet.

So, seems to me that the discussiaon should be how best to lock-out those extra-dimensional reserves by destroying, taking control or de-powering the pyramids and portals needed to bring in those additional troops.

Destroying: Each major city as at least one central pyramid and lots of additional ones. How much M.D.C. does a pyramid have? Could you take one out with a CS Navy / NGR Navy / New Navy missile strike? Attacking them individually won't do. You'd have to coordinate a strike on as many of the larger pyramids as you could in the first wave.

ARCHIE-3 is potentially a game-changer here. Considering that he has orbital communications capabilities and may have orbital reconnaissance or spy satellites, he may even have or can get detailed maps and coordinates of all major pyramid sites. Data that could be leaked to the Atlantis resistance though Argent Beta. This assumes that forces looking to topple Atlantis are working with the resistance and have let them in on their attack plans of course.

It would probably also require all of the above navies to share intelligence and coordinate a strike to maximize the attack with minimum overlap (don't have all ships aiming at the same pyramid). Considering how the New Navy feels about the CS, this seems unlikely.

Taking Control: Again, not sure how many pyramids there are in total, but in this scenario you would be relying heavily on the Atlantis Underground Railroad and as many Atlantean clans as you can muster. You could potentially use Manoa as a staging point for this covert assault, but considering that most of the other clans lump them in with the Aerihman that seems unlikely. Splynn Dimensional Market as doesn't state anything to suggest that the resistance leader Max is even aware of the presence of Manoa.

Other possible allies include Lemuria and non-affiliated Stone Masters and True Atlanteans. The main challenges would be to get your forces close enough to attack the pyramids without drawing attention, then potentially fighting your way through local minions then taking and holding the pyramids themselves.

On the upshot, if you can hold even some of the pyramids you could use them to bring in your own reinforcements straight to heart of Atlantis while cutting off Splugorth reinforcements.

Problems include the fact that most of the clans don't meet very often, the True Atlanteans and Lemuria are really talking to one another and in all likelihood the plans would be derailed by traitors from the Mauiian Order or Sunaj.

De-powering: This might be most farfetched plan of the three, but the idea would be to take control or divert ley lines that lead into Atlantis. Plant a Millenium tree on a connected ley line somewhere out in the preserves maybe or getting really out there, ally with the Empire of the Sun and literally redirect or divert ley lines that connect to those pyramids. Good luck doing that unnoticed though.

Other Wildcards:

1) ARCHIE-3 and his Mechanoid bots could be used to divert Kittani forces in any attack scenario and ARCHIE is likely to know when best to play that card due to his links with Altantis Underground forces.

2) The Sunaj have been looking to backstab Splynncryth and have largely convinced the Metzla to go along with them according to WB2. If they have infiltrated the Underground (and it wouldn't surprise me if the they did), they could play that card during any attack scenario.

If both wildcards were played at the same time that would at least briefly throw Kittani, Metzla and Sunaj forces into disarray making it easier for any attacking force.

[Hotrod]

1. Recreate the ancient Atlantean experiment that made it disappear in the first place.
2. ???
3. Profit!

[taalismn]

1. Recreate the ancient Atlantean experiment that made it disappear in the first place.
2. ???
3. Profit!

Provided you can get most of the monsters on island in the process. It might be like dropping a hornet's nest in a lake. Enough of them might flee that you'd be dealing with angry swarms of left-behinds(especially winged types like gargoyles) trying to seek refuge or get revenge. And there's no assurance that if Splynncryth escapes, he might not decide to re-establish someplace else, especially if he thinks he can deal with the bad PR from the sinking, and offer future investors enough of a return.
Solynncryth knows enough about Rifts Earth by now that he'd have a fair idea of some alternate sites if he really had to establish another foothold, but being the business-monster that he is, the question is whether he'd get anybody else to be interested in patronizing his efforts after the serious bad mojo losing Atlantis (especially if a lot of important bigwigs went down with it) would definitely cost him.
If he ever found out somebody DELIBERATELY sank Atlantis under him, even if it further wrecked his wallet, I imagine he'd put some serious revenge schemes in operation to hunt down whoever killed his golden goose. The Sunaj would go along with this because a) it puts them in a better position to exploit Solynncryth's weaknesses(and they might even kill him before long) and b) they'd want payback on whoever did it too(provided the Sunaj weren't in on the sinking scheme too, and had enough time to move irreplaceable assets out and re-arrange any other plans of theirs)..

[Ed]

Every discussion about taking down Splynncryth's Atlantis always comes back to the trillions of additional troops old One Eye has in reserve off-planet.

Given his canon holdings and an unheard of deployment rate, the Atlantean standing army would be at most 2 billion, not multiple trillions. And the logistics of moving hundreds of millions of troops is a non trivial exercise. Bottom line: no invasion will have to face the full might of Atlantis at once, but any invasion will be heavily outnumbered.

So, seems to me that the discussiaon should be how best to lock-out those extra-dimensional reserves by destroying, taking control or de-powering the pyramids and portals needed to bring in those additional troops.

Destroying: Each major city as at least one central pyramid and lots of additional ones. How much M.D.C. does a pyramid have? Could you take one out with a CS Navy / NGR Navy / New Navy missile strike? Attacking them individually won't do. You'd have to coordinate a strike on as many of the larger pyramids as you could in the first wave.

Per CSN, the CS has firing solutions pre-calculated for a blanket strike of city-buster class strategic warheads on every major population center on Atlantis. The warheads are powerful enought to destroy or disable the transportation pyramids.

ARCHIE-3 is potentially a game-changer here. Considering that he has orbital communications capabilities and may have orbital reconnaissance or spy satellites, he may even have or can get detailed maps and coordinates of all major pyramid sites. Data that could be leaked to the Atlantis resistance though Argent Beta. This assumes that forces looking to topple Atlantis are working with the resistance and have let them in on their attack plans of course.

It would probably also require all of the above navies to share intelligence and coordinate a strike to maximize the attack with minimum overlap (don't have all ships aiming at the same pyramid). Considering how the New Navy feels about the CS, this seems unlikely.

The New Navy does not have a strategic weapons program and while up-to-data information from Archie would be nice, cities can't dodge.

Taking Control: Again, not sure how many pyramids there are in total, but in this scenario you would be relying heavily on the Atlantis Underground Railroad and as many Atlantean clans as you can muster. You could potentially use Manoa as a staging point for this covert assault, but considering that most of the other clans lump them in with the Aerihman that seems unlikely. Splynn Dimensional Market as doesn't state anything to suggest that the resistance leader Max is even aware of the presence of Manoa.

Other possible allies include Lemuria and non-affiliated Stone Masters and True Atlanteans. The main challenges would be to get your forces close enough to attack the pyramids without drawing attention, then potentially fighting your way through local minions then taking and holding the pyramids themselves.

On the upshot, if you can hold even some of the pyramids you could use them to bring in your own reinforcements straight to heart of Atlantis while cutting off Splugorth reinforcements.

Attacking the pyramid operators would be a good use for small elite units.

Problems include the fact that most of the clans don't meet very often, the True Atlanteans and Lemuria are really talking to one another and in all likelihood the plans would be derailed by traitors from the Mauiian Order or Sunaj.

De-powering: This might be most farfetched plan of the three, but the idea would be to take control or divert ley lines that lead into Atlantis. Plant a Millenium tree on a connected ley line somewhere out in the preserves maybe or getting really out there, ally with the Empire of the Sun and literally redirect or divert ley lines that connect to those pyramids. Good luck doing that unnoticed though.

Other Wildcards:

1) ARCHIE-3 and his Mechanoid bots could be used to divert Kittani forces in any attack scenario and ARCHIE is likely to know when best to play that card due to his links with Altantis Underground forces.

2) The Sunaj have been looking to backstab Splynncryth and have largely convinced the Metzla to go along with them according to WB2. If they have infiltrated the Underground (and it wouldn't surprise me if the they did), they could play that card during any attack scenario.

If both wildcards were played at the same time that would at least briefly throw Kittani, Metzla and Sunaj forces into disarray making it easier for any attacking force.

[Ed]

1. Recreate the ancient Atlantean experiment that made it disappear in the first place.
2. ???
3. Profit!

Provided you can get most of the monsters on island in the process. It might be like dropping a hornet's nest in a lake. Enough of them might flee that you'd be dealing with angry swarms of left-behinds(especially winged types like gargoyles) trying to seek refuge or get revenge. And there's no assurance that if Splynncryth escapes, he might not decide to re-establish someplace else, especially if he thinks he can deal with the bad PR from the sinking, and offer future investors enough of a return.
Solynncryth knows enough about Rifts Earth by now that he'd have a fair idea of some alternate sites if he really had to establish another foothold, but being the business-monster that he is, the question is whether he'd get anybody else to be interested in patronizing his efforts after the serious bad mojo losing Atlantis (especially if a lot of important bigwigs went down with it) would definitely cost him.
If he ever found out somebody DELIBERATELY sank Atlantis under him, even if it further wrecked his wallet, I imagine he'd put some serious revenge schemes in operation to hunt down whoever killed his golden goose. The Sunaj would go along with this because a) it puts them in a better position to exploit Solynncryth's weaknesses(and they might even kill him before long) and b) they'd want payback on whoever did it too(provided the Sunaj weren't in on the sinking scheme too, and had enough time to move irreplaceable assets out and re-arrange any other plans of theirs)..

IIRC the original experiment de-powered the planet magically, re-creating it would be a death sentence for all magic powered creatures unable to flee. So there wouldn't be a threat of Splynncryyth setting up shop somewhere else on Earth.

[Alrik Vas]

not a threat? With no mystic dangers to counter them, the kittani are even more dangerous.

[say652]

Cutter, PowerSurge, Flying Snow, Kevin Leemus, Clyde Snell, Trooper J and Scorch.

Basically my munchkin mostly noncanon Motley Crue of Menaces, er I mean heroes could are capable of combating Supernatural Intelligences, Mechanoids etc. But for the most part the team is limited to planetary missions, some are receiving deep space combat training...

I almost forgot cannon fodder, Troops.

MR 652 Robot.
Super Spy.
Invulnerablility.
Ex Mental Endurance.
Regrow Limbs.

Exoskeleton Heavy cyborg armor.
Tri Beam Weapons, pistol, rifle, sword.
Phase weapons, pistol, rifle, sword.

And of course The Leader of The Ghost Riders, Reptile mr 652 level 10.

[Ed]

not a threat? With no mystic dangers to counter them, the kittani are even more dangerous.

They are also cut off from their off planet reinforcements and manufacturing base. Five million Kitanni are a ferocious opponent but will ultimately lose a battle of attrition.

[eliakon]

not a threat? With no mystic dangers to counter them, the kittani are even more dangerous.

They are also cut off from their off planet reinforcements and manufacturing base. Five million Kitanni are a ferocious opponent but will ultimately lose a battle of attrition.

Except that there is nothing at all preventing people from opening rifts TO earth regardless of its magic level. Just that it would be really hard to open one here on ones own.
So actually the attrition will apply to those people who do not have access extra-dimensional resupply.

[Alrik Vas]

Hmmm...maybe losing dimensional travel would throw Atlantis into utter chaos. It seems to be their convenience, in wonder how much supply they actually store locally. Suddenly cut off from outside sources, how long could they keep their millions of minions fed and properly equipped?

If they seized the CS, even then it wouldn't last their silly numbers that long.

[eliakon]

Hmmm...maybe losing dimensional travel would throw Atlantis into utter chaos. It seems to be their convenience, in wonder how much supply they actually store locally. Suddenly cut off from outside sources, how long could they keep their millions of minions fed and properly equipped?

If they seized the CS, even then it wouldn't last their silly numbers that long.

I dunno the CS seems to be able to feed and supply a rather silly number of people itself and it doesn't have magic.....

[Bill]

Cutting off Atlantis also doesn't cut off the rest of the planet. Splynncryth could temporarily move operations to his African outpost and retaliate from there.

[Alrik Vas]

Taking over the CS would damage the infrastructure, then reorganizing everything, transporting etc would be logistical hell. If you guys don't think it an issue, fine. I'll drop it. /shrug

[Ed]

not a threat? With no mystic dangers to counter them, the kittani are even more dangerous.

They are also cut off from their off planet reinforcements and manufacturing base. Five million Kitanni are a ferocious opponent but will ultimately lose a battle of attrition.

Except that there is nothing at all preventing people from opening rifts TO earth regardless of its magic level. Just that it would be really hard to open one here on ones own.
So actually the attrition will apply to those people who do not have access extra-dimensional resupply.

There are two roadblocks, one operational: dimensional rifting is not particularly accurate; and two: kitanni aren't allowed to use magic. Someone would have to send them, as a magic less Earth is of little or no value, the phrase throwing good money after bad is the operable one.

[Ed]

Cutting off Atlantis also doesn't cut off the rest of the planet. Splynncryth could temporarily move operations to his African outpost and retaliate from there.

The original idea was to re-create the Atlantean Pandora experiment that de-magicked the planet, which definitely would cut off Africa as well.

Beyond that, Africa does not have the key line network or the pyramid infrastructure to be even close to Atlantis capability and it's geographically easier to reach and therefore much harder to defend.

[Ed]

Hmmm...maybe losing dimensional travel would throw Atlantis into utter chaos. It seems to be their convenience, in wonder how much supply they actually store locally. Suddenly cut off from outside sources, how long could they keep their millions of minions fed and properly equipped?

If they seized the CS, even then it wouldn't last their silly numbers that long.

I dunno the CS seems to be able to feed and supply a rather silly number of people itself and it doesn't have magic.....

Point being, Atlantis would take over with the infrastructure intact? Unlikely.

[eliakon]

Hmmm...maybe losing dimensional travel would throw Atlantis into utter chaos. It seems to be their convenience, in wonder how much supply they actually store locally. Suddenly cut off from outside sources, how long could they keep their millions of minions fed and properly equipped?

If they seized the CS, even then it wouldn't last their silly numbers that long.

I dunno the CS seems to be able to feed and supply a rather silly number of people itself and it doesn't have magic.....

Point being, Atlantis would take over with the infrastructure intact? Unlikely.

Counter point. Would they have to?
I mean if the CS can just magically whip up food, materials, equipment and the like it implies that there is some sort of behind the scenes production capability that is doing it. So to assume that only the CS has this seems......unlikely.
So just have the Kittani use their tech to make themselves some of these...whatever-they- ares. and use that. No need to capture anyone else's.

[Alrik Vas]

The CS controls the Midwest, the grain and corn fields of north America, fields that feed people all over the world today. This isn't magically whipping it up from nowhere. It's a real thing and the CS feeds a dramatically smaller population.

The question is whether the fields are taken with produce still usable, and if it can be distributed without splugorth magic.

[Tor]

Does Swallowing Rift work on bombs?

Also, what if people just constantly launch missiles? It'd take a lot of PPE to keep it up all the time (unless you want the complications of a permanent Swallowing Rift overhead) and to cover all important areas, and if you were reactive, you might at best have the 1 min provided by 6th sense to cast the spell, meaning you need people capable of using the spell on hand 24/7 to react.

[eliakon]

The CS controls the Midwest, the grain and corn fields of north America, fields that feed people all over the world today. This isn't magically whipping it up from nowhere. It's a real thing and the CS feeds a dramatically smaller population.

The question is whether the fields are taken with produce still usable, and if it can be distributed without splugorth magic.

Its pretty magical considering that supposedly there are monsters disrupting farms, there is no ready source of the fertilizers and pestisides used today to keep those yields up, that this is not described as a solidly farmed breadbasket like today but scatterd villiages and towns....
So yah it is pretty magical.
And the production of MDC materials, electronics, weapons, e-clips, munitions, explosives, nuclear power plants......
Pretty magical level infrastructure.

Or maybe, just maybe the world of RIFTS doesn't work on real world rules and limitations and like the Diskworld is bound instead by the laws of Narrative and Plot.....

[Alrik Vas]

I don't disagree that it's bound by narrative, but if we're just going to throw our hands up and shrug the magic shrug because the narrative conflicts with information given, then really nothing on this forum is worth discussion beyond that answer.

Besides, most cities on rifts earth I'm north America seem to have underground hydroponics.

[Ed]

Hmmm...maybe losing dimensional travel would throw Atlantis into utter chaos. It seems to be their convenience, in wonder how much supply they actually store locally. Suddenly cut off from outside sources, how long could they keep their millions of minions fed and properly equipped?

If they seized the CS, even then it wouldn't last their silly numbers that long.

I dunno the CS seems to be able to feed and supply a rather silly number of people itself and it doesn't have magic.....

Point being, Atlantis would take over with the infrastructure intact? Unlikely.

Counter point. Would they have to?
I mean if the CS can just magically whip up food, materials, equipment and the like it implies that there is some sort of behind the scenes production capability that is doing it. So to assume that only the CS has this seems......unlikely.
So just have the Kittani use their tech to make themselves some of these...whatever-they- ares. and use that. No need to capture anyone else's.

The problem being the Kitanni are a slave race in a slave economy. The Coalition, your opinion of the meta game aside, is a functional technological nation-state; agriculture and assembly lines come with the package. In Atlantis, slaves do the drudge work so the Proud Warrior Race slaves can do fighting stuff. No magic, no instantaneous transport solving the logistics problem.

[Ed]

Does Swallowing Rift work on bombs?

Also, what if people just constantly launch missiles? It'd take a lot of PPE to keep it up all the time (unless you want the complications of a permanent Swallowing Rift overhead) and to cover all important areas, and if you were reactive, you might at best have the 1 min provided by 6th sense to cast the spell, meaning you need people capable of using the spell on hand 24/7 to react.

IIRC it effects any flying object. In addition to the PPE drain, continual upkeep would ground all Atlantean flyers.

[eliakon]

I don't disagree that it's bound by narrative, but if we're just going to throw our hands up and shrug the magic shrug because the narrative conflicts with information given, then really nothing on this forum is worth discussion beyond that answer.

I am not saying that "the narrative conflicts with information given" I am saying that the assumption that one (very high tech) faction in Rifts would starve to death and run out of resources, when no one else does so, is to imply that they have some sort of specific weakness that no other faction on rifts suffers from. If every single other faction on Rifts Earth can manage to keep them selves supplied with the miniscule resources that they have available in the books. Then perhaps the Kitanni can do the same is what I am saying.

Besides, most cities on rifts earth I'm north America seem to have underground hydroponics.

Source? I don't recall reading anything about hydroponics in any of the books.

[Alrik Vas]

Check JU, Kingsdale has it. There's a section about the CS megacities doing the same, but I don't recall the book. Possibly CWC. Apologies about the lack of citations, no access to my books right now.

Though as far as I know, how splynn feeds the kittani isn't really discussed. Pretty sure Atlantis doesn't even have information about what land there is used for farming, if any. It's not a terrible assumption that they bring massed supplies through the pyramids, though, as its possible dimensional travel would make wildly different resource demands in short periods.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Hmmm...maybe losing dimensional travel would throw Atlantis into utter chaos. It seems to be their convenience, in wonder how much supply they actually store locally. Suddenly cut off from outside sources, how long could they keep their millions of minions fed and properly equipped?

If they seized the CS, even then it wouldn't last their silly numbers that long.

I dunno the CS seems to be able to feed and supply a rather silly number of people itself and it doesn't have magic.....

Point being, Atlantis would take over with the infrastructure intact? Unlikely.

Counter point. Would they have to?
I mean if the CS can just magically whip up food, materials, equipment and the like it implies that there is some sort of behind the scenes production capability that is doing it. So to assume that only the CS has this seems......unlikely.
So just have the Kittani use their tech to make themselves some of these...whatever-they- ares. and use that. No need to capture anyone else's.

The problem being the Kitanni are a slave race in a slave economy. The Coalition, your opinion of the meta game aside, is a functional technological nation-state; agriculture and assembly lines come with the package. In Atlantis, slaves do the drudge work so the Proud Warrior Race slaves can do fighting stuff. No magic, no instantaneous transport solving the logistics problem.

Actually that's not true, Minion Races are not slaves, but are considered free citizens who are merely under the rulership of their King (the splurgorth) and their appointed viceroys (the various High Lords) but have local autonomy. The Kydians and other minions who do not to enlist in the army are civilians, free to travel, work, and generally do as their heart desires so long as they don't defy the general laws. They even are allowed local goverment sinse the splurgorth, explictly, do not micromange the affairs of worlds their minions have already conquered. a Kittani-conquered world is primarly ruled by Kittanni who do as they see fit so long as they return the profits the splurgorth demands they don't really care how they do it. (Splyncryth won't hesitate to put a slaver or high lord to run some aspect for them if he feels they are not giving the results he wants of course)

[eliakon]

Check JU, Kingsdale has it. There's a section about the CS megacities doing the same, but I don't recall the book. Possibly CWC. Apologies about the lack of citations, no access to my books right now.

I will wait for a citation. When I read my copy of JU (3rd printing) there was no mention of Hydroponics. In fact the only mention of food was the last paragraph on page 100 about how there is raising of domestic of animals around the city.
(I do not have a shadow update copy, so it is possible that they put a mention of it in a shadow update.)
I am currently checking CWC and Aftermath (page by page checking takes a while)

Though as far as I know, how splynn feeds the kittani isn't really discussed. Pretty sure Atlantis doesn't even have information about what land there is used for farming, if any. It's not a terrible assumption that they bring massed supplies through the pyramids, though, as its possible dimensional travel would make wildly different resource demands in short periods.

They may synthesize the needed supplies ala the Tee'ze. (or not, as you say there is next to nothing discussed about this)

[Ed]

Actually that's not true, Minion Races are not slaves, but are considered free citizens who are merely under the rulership of their King (the splurgorth) and their appointed viceroys (the various High Lords) but have local autonomy. The Kydians and other minions who do not to enlist in the army are civilians, free to travel, work, and generally do as their heart desires so long as they don't defy the general laws. They even are allowed local goverment sinse the splurgorth, explictly, do not micromange the affairs of worlds their minions have already conquered. a Kittani-conquered world is primarly ruled by Kittanni who do as they see fit so long as they return the profits the splurgorth demands they don't really care how they do it. (Splyncryth won't hesitate to put a slaver or high lord to run some aspect for them if he feels they are not giving the results he wants of course)

Can the Kitanni leave the Splugoorth service, learn magic, build unlimited numbers of Dragon Dreadnaughts, conquer worlds on their own, or defy a order from a Splugoorth or higher ranking minion?

No.

If something walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck. Even if you call it something else.

The Kitanni are slaves, useful, well treated, happy, and privileged; but still slaves.

[Leo H]

Actually that's not true, Minion Races are not slaves, but are considered free citizens who are merely under the rulership of their King (the splurgorth) and their appointed viceroys (the various High Lords) but have local autonomy. The Kydians and other minions who do not to enlist in the army are civilians, free to travel, work, and generally do as their heart desires so long as they don't defy the general laws. They even are allowed local goverment sinse the splurgorth, explictly, do not micromange the affairs of worlds their minions have already conquered. a Kittani-conquered world is primarly ruled by Kittanni who do as they see fit so long as they return the profits the splurgorth demands they don't really care how they do it. (Splyncryth won't hesitate to put a slaver or high lord to run some aspect for them if he feels they are not giving the results he wants of course)

Can the Kitanni leave the Splugoorth service, learn magic, build unlimited numbers of Dragon Dreadnaughts, conquer worlds on their own, or defy a order from a Splugoorth or higher ranking minion?

No.

If something walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck. Even if you call it something else.

The Kitanni are slaves, useful, well treated, happy, and privileged; but still slaves.

I tend to agree with you. As I recall that's what they agreed to when the Splugorth saved them from the Mechanoids.

[flatline]

My government doesn't allow me to do all sorts of interesting things, yet I am not a slave.

Neither are the Kitanni.

[Leo H]

My government doesn't allow me to do all sorts of interesting things, yet I am not a slave.

Neither are the Kitanni.

Okay, how do you classify them? They are servants for sure. All of them serve the Splugorth. Anyone who tries to leave the service of the Splugorth is hunted down.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Actually that's not true, Minion Races are not slaves, but are considered free citizens who are merely under the rulership of their King (the splurgorth) and their appointed viceroys (the various High Lords) but have local autonomy. The Kydians and other minions who do not to enlist in the army are civilians, free to travel, work, and generally do as their heart desires so long as they don't defy the general laws. They even are allowed local goverment sinse the splurgorth, explictly, do not micromange the affairs of worlds their minions have already conquered. a Kittani-conquered world is primarly ruled by Kittanni who do as they see fit so long as they return the profits the splurgorth demands they don't really care how they do it. (Splyncryth won't hesitate to put a slaver or high lord to run some aspect for them if he feels they are not giving the results he wants of course)

Can the Kitanni leave the Splugoorth service, learn magic, build unlimited numbers of Dragon Dreadnaughts, conquer worlds on their own, or defy a order from a Splugoorth or higher ranking minion?

No.

If something walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck. Even if you call it something else.

The Kitanni are slaves, useful, well treated, happy, and privileged; but still slaves.

Ummm...no, the fact there are laws they have to obey dosn't make them slave. Slave means they are someone's property and can be bought and sold. that's it. Having to obey an emporer dosn't make you a slave.

(Unless you say all subjects of a monarch are slaves, in which case we have a fundamental disagreement over what slave means)

[Ed]

Actually that's not true, Minion Races are not slaves, but are considered free citizens who are merely under the rulership of their King (the splurgorth) and their appointed viceroys (the various High Lords) but have local autonomy. The Kydians and other minions who do not to enlist in the army are civilians, free to travel, work, and generally do as their heart desires so long as they don't defy the general laws. They even are allowed local goverment sinse the splurgorth, explictly, do not micromange the affairs of worlds their minions have already conquered. a Kittani-conquered world is primarly ruled by Kittanni who do as they see fit so long as they return the profits the splurgorth demands they don't really care how they do it. (Splyncryth won't hesitate to put a slaver or high lord to run some aspect for them if he feels they are not giving the results he wants of course)

Can the Kitanni leave the Splugoorth service, learn magic, build unlimited numbers of Dragon Dreadnaughts, conquer worlds on their own, or defy a order from a Splugoorth or higher ranking minion?

No.

If something walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck. Even if you call it something else.

The Kitanni are slaves, useful, well treated, happy, and privileged; but still slaves.

Ummm...no, the fact there are laws they have to obey dosn't make them slave. Slave means they are someone's property and can be bought and sold. that's it. Having to obey an emporer dosn't make you a slave.

(Unless you say all subjects of a monarch are slaves, in which case we have a fundamental disagreement over what slave means)

The fact that the one law is "Do what you are told" makes them slaves. Being a subject of an empire that doesn't allow someone to leave and that holds the absolute power over them means there is an empire full of slaves. Put all the lipstick on that pig you care to, it's still a pig.

[say652]

The Fall Of Atlantis.

Seven Mechanoid Mother Ships move towards the Rifts Earth Planet.

A few weeks of heavy resistance and The Satellite's finally Fall.

Archies Moon Base, is proving difficult other than inferior biped Technology, he is a Robot. Blockade the Entire Moon, we'll keep that for a study..

As the moon is blocked several Billion Mechanoids start a Battle they just might lose, maybe....

Nothing less.and definitely nothing on Rifts Earth can conquer Atlantis.

[Ed]

My government doesn't allow me to do all sorts of interesting things, yet I am not a slave.

Neither are the Kitanni.

If President Obama walked into your house and ordered you to kill your entire family, would you have to do it?

A Kitanni would.

[Ed]

The Fall Of Atlantis.

Seven Mechanoid Mother Ships move towards the Rifts Earth Planet.

A few weeks of heavy resistance and The Satellite's finally Fall.

Archies Moon Base, is proving difficult other than inferior biped Technology, he is a Robot. Blockade the Entire Moon, we'll keep that for a study..

As the moon is blocked several Billion Mechanoids start a Battle they just might lose, maybe....

Nothing less.and definitely nothing on Rifts Earth can conquer Atlantis.

One battered shuttle craft runs itself to .15 light speed and crashes into the planet. Cracks the crust like a rotten eggshell. Total extinction.

[Alrik Vas]

Eehh...I'm thinking no on cracking the mantle. More like the atmosphere turns the shuttle into a fireball.

It's a fireball you can see from orbit, but it isn't an extinction level event. Just enough to excite the doomsayers.

[say652]

Northern California, the territory of GreenBrook.
The Moonshade God, and his Stooge The Beast of GreenBrook lead their forces in several victories and offer medical treatment to all that make it to their safe haven during these troubling times.


Columbia used to impossible odds is holding just fine for now...
A small army of Juicers was in town at the time and their heroics rival the Anti Monsters.
Flying Snow fights beside his fellow performers The Juicer Unlimited League.

[Ed]

Eehh...I'm thinking no on cracking the mantle. More like the atmosphere turns the shuttle into a fireball.

It's a fireball you can see from orbit, but it isn't an extinction level event. Just enough to excite the doomsayers.

Assuming the shuttle is roughly five times the mass of a 1974 Ford LTD, it would impact with more than 48 gigatons of explosive energy. More than 15 times what would be needed to shatter the mantle and split the planet into very small pieces.