So, how about an alternative to litigation ?

devillin · Unread post by **devillin** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:37 pm

Here's a question for everyone. What if Palladium finally comes out and admits that their plans for Wave Two didn't work out the way they wanted, and that the delays mean it won't get released for a significant period of time? So to placate the backers and fanbase, they will give you five options. Which of the following would any of you accept?

Instead of Wave Two stuff, they give you:

1) ... an equivalent value in Wave One stuff. Like if you bought under $40, they give you a dozen sprues of VFs, destroids, or Pods (your choice of combination). You bought $40 - $70, get an additional boxed set. For every $60 over that first $70 of Wave Two stuff, you get an additional boxed set.

2) ... all of the Gencon exclusive stuff they've produced, exchanged at 30% off retail value for however much you paid for the Wave Two stuff (rounded up). So if you put in $40, you could get a Miriya and a Max, or combination of any of the exclusives.

3) ... your choice of any of the Earth's Defenders packs, exchanged at 30% off retail value for however much you paid for the Wave Two stuff (rounded up). So if you put in $40, you could get 6 blister packs of your choice.

4) A combination of any of these three choices, with the number of items you could get in exchange rounded into your favor. (if the equivalent exchange you want to do results in you having $4 left over, you can use it to get an Earth's Defender pack, if it is between $4 and $10 you can use it for more sprues, if it is $10 to $16 you can use it for a Gencon Exclusive).

Or ...

5) Wait until some time in 2016 for Wave Two to finish development?

If Palladium were able to reverse the ill-will (either with one of the first 4 options, or something else that they come up with that is acceptable to the widest number of backers) generated by their previous inaction, what would they need to do to grow the community? Because if our concern is to have a wider group for this game, then we need to discuss what solutions will make it successful.

Alpha 11 · Unread post by **Alpha 11** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:23 pm

I'll wait. I know they will get it out. It just might.... take a will.

Everyman · Unread post by **Everyman** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:37 pm

I am picking option 5. While I seriously doubt that Wave 2 will make it by end of year. I am fine with waiting until summer. Of course Kevin really needs to provide a solid meaningful update on Wave 2 soon so at least we know where things stand realistically.

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:58 pm

There's no proof it might be out by summer next year. I can't make an informed decision because thanks to a lack of updates I'm not well informed. Tell you what I'll get back to you soonTM.

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:30 pm

devillin wrote:Here's a question for everyone. What if Palladium finally comes out and admits that their plans for Wave Two didn't work out the way they wanted, and that the delays mean it won't get released for a significant period of time? So to placate the backers and fanbase, they will give you five options. Which of the following would any of you accept?

Instead of Wave Two stuff, they give you:

1) ... an equivalent value in Wave One stuff. Like if you bought under $40, they give you a dozen sprues of VFs, destroids, or Pods (your choice of combination). You bought $40 - $70, get an additional boxed set. For every $60 over that first $70 of Wave Two stuff, you get an additional boxed set.

2) ... all of the Gencon exclusive stuff they've produced, exchanged at 30% off retail value for however much you paid for the Wave Two stuff (rounded up). So if you put in $40, you could get a Miriya and a Max, or combination of any of the exclusives.

3) ... your choice of any of the Earth's Defenders packs, exchanged at 30% off retail value for however much you paid for the Wave Two stuff (rounded up). So if you put in $40, you could get 6 blister packs of your choice.

4) A combination of any of these three choices, with the number of items you could get in exchange rounded into your favor. (if the equivalent exchange you want to do results in you having $4 left over, you can use it to get an Earth's Defender pack, if it is between $4 and $10 you can use it for more sprues, if it is $10 to $16 you can use it for a Gencon Exclusive).

Or ...

5) Wait until some time in 2016 for Wave Two to finish development?

If Palladium were able to reverse the ill-will (either with one of the first 4 options, or something else that they come up with that is acceptable to the widest number of backers) generated by their previous inaction, what would they need to do to grow the community? Because if our concern is to have a wider group for this game, then we need to discuss what solutions will make it successful.

The problem with the 'community' is that there are a small number of highly vocal people who turn every discussion into an attack on Palladium. That sort of negativity in a community frightens of newcomers. Add in the fact that most of the people playing this are hyper rabid Robotech fans, which means that every issue turns into religious wars of personal interpretations of canon and I can see why newcomers would rather go pick a different game that is not going to have newcomers ridiculed as newbs by an ivory tower elite.

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:34 pm

I would go so far as to say it's more than a vocal few. Sorry Elikon but your being disingenuous at best. That's were you and PB have made that mistake in the past. Obviously it's more than only a few. So far it's only three people with a fourth on the way. If PB continues to not discuss wave two it will quickly snowball into more than a "vocal few".

Now This is being written about in a blog.

https://speakingoutonlife.wordpress.com ... au-part-i/

https://speakingoutonlife.wordpress.com ... au-part-2/

https://speakingoutonlife.wordpress.com ... au-part-3/

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:23 pm

Kryptt wrote:I would go so far as to say it's more than a vocal few. Sorry Elikon but your being disingenuous at best. That's were you and PB have made that mistake in the past. Obviously it's more than only a few. So far it's only three people with a fourth on the way. If PB continues to not discuss wave two it will quickly snowball into more than a "vocal few".

Now This is being written about in a blog.

https://speakingoutonlife.wordpress.com ... au-part-i/

https://speakingoutonlife.wordpress.com ... au-part-2/

https://speakingoutonlife.wordpress.com ... au-part-3/

^THIS^ is what I am talking about though....
Why would I want to start playing a game where a handful of people are trying to stir up trouble?
Its already so poisonous that most people I know refuse to go to the RT forums because any discussion or ideas is met with derision that some newbie doesn't know the line of background character b in scene 17 of episode 9 and so they are obviously a foolish newb...
I notice that its the same few people talking to themselves in these forums about the doom and promises and how its the end of the world.... Which sort of tells me that yah, it is just a minority because the majority of the people that post in this forum are not talking about how its all doom.
Echo chambers are not the way to determine who is a majority. They are however a great way to drive out any dissenting opinion, and by extension any new people.

ZINO · Unread post by **ZINO** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:46 pm

Kryptt wrote:I would go so far as to say it's more than a vocal few. Sorry Elikon but your being disingenuous at best. That's were you and PB have made that mistake in the past. Obviously it's more than only a few. So far it's only three people with a fourth on the way. If PB continues to not discuss wave two it will quickly snowball into more than a "vocal few".

Now This is being written about in a blog.

https://speakingoutonlife.wordpress.com ... au-part-i/

https://speakingoutonlife.wordpress.com ... au-part-2/

https://speakingoutonlife.wordpress.com ... au-part-3/

this is the reason i stop posting in the forum this means nothing

TagsPB · Unread post by **TagsPB** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:27 am

I think people need to remember a lesson their parents should have taught them.......if you can't say something nice, DON'T say anything at all.

That isn't to say you can't question a decision that has been made......but you don't throw people under the bus to do it

McPherson · Unread post by **McPherson** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:25 am

Alas TagsPB that thinking has also somewhat led to the situation at hand, nobody has been saying anything nice (or in some cases anything at all) and all its done is left people resentful and worried on both sides of the discussion.

Palladium promised to restart the dialogue in their 19 page mega-update but haven't actually said anything since then. Wayne said he was going to give a complete breakdown of where every model is once he collates the information into a single spreadsheet a month ago and still nothing.

I'm trying my best to remain positive but the wall of silence from PB speaks volumes and until they actually get off the sofa and do their chores and let us know how they are using our 1.4million dollar investment to produce the product we all wanted to see people are going to be upset. The ball is in their court and all they have to do is actually return it.

- End of Line -

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:29 am

TagsPB wrote:I think people need to remember a lesson their parents should have taught them.......if you can't say something nice, DON'T say anything at all.

That isn't to say you can't question a decision that has been made......but you don't throw people under the bus to do it

I'm sorry but nobody has posted anything bad about PB. I'm not sure what your talking about. I've seen people post that there unhappy about the situation but nobody here has posted anything horrible about PB. Could you please explain.

wilycoyote · Unread post by **wilycoyote** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:52 am

In reply to the OP , offering Wave One product or Con exclusives etc as an an alternative to completing the project is simply a "cop out" and
would at least IMO kill the game completely, The game is crying out for variety (especially on the zent side) and that is what wave 2 is about,

So to go forward.

Palladium can take the wind out of the sails of those so called minority of "vocal" backers who are poisoining the game (something I strongly dispute but that is for elsewhere) by simpply giving everyone a clear and visible indication of where they are with Wave 2 and what progress is being made. It is that simple really, it really is

Nevermind we have awesome stuff coming soon, we have new rules coming soon, we are doing great stuff soon. See the connection it is always "soon" but never backed with visible physical evidence.

Someone said earlier nothing to show say nothing, sorry that is not a great excuse. We have been told parts counts are still high. Show us the "as is" proposals and the potential changes to be nade on these models you are working on. The conventional rules were promised a month ago, where are they? The list goes on... Continued silence (some would say sticking your fingers in your ears) just breeds wild speculation.

Rather than trying to blame a few backers for the poor showing of the game , perhaps PB need to take a good hard look at themselves and think about what could and should have improved It is disappointing (yet agian) that the "Brave New World" promised after the great 19 page history, has in fact just turned into another PB "coming soon" broken promise.

I refute the claim of "We are so busy, so much to do" as another poor excuse. This project brought in the largest injection of cash PB has ever recieved, so simply show those who "backed" you respect and talk to them. You may be surprised that many will listen and will support the game if you do so

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:45 am

Ok....I don't generally post on these forums anymore for a variety of reasons. I have been called hater, defender, and a variety of other things by a number of people on both sides of the equation as it pertains to Palladium and their games.

I have also done my damndest to try and promote this game wherever I can. I created a dedicated proboard so those who did not want to wade through these forums, or did not feel welcome here, could have a place to discuss the game. (A proboard that has just as many threads even if not as many posts but without all the negative threads that we see here on a regular basis). I created a dedicated wiki to help facilitate and easier acquisition of the officially released materials (assembly guides and such), that palladium has put out, as well as other resources to help play this game like printable terrain and custom game cards and such. I have helped mike1975 create and tweak all his materials that have done nothing but help keep this game relevant. I run demos when I can (two more 4 hour demos coming up at my local con). And I keep going over everything and engaging the community where I can (other than here because frankly it has becoming nothing but an echo chamber of sorts by and large).

If anyone thinks it is only a few people that are the problem then you are very sorely mistaken.

Palladium has done what to promote this game on their end? Where are the promotions they talked about? The advertising? The organized play?

Why are they so utterly silent on wave two? You cannot convince me they cannot tell us where the various pieces are at in development. In fact Wayne promised us this information over a month ago. It cannot take THAT much time to type up a brief update to say "This piece is at this stage, that piece s at that stage". These are things they should readily know as they people making the game. Wayne also promised a whole slew of additional images of a wave two units back in February which we never got. Mind you Palladium is known for significantly overstating how much work is done or how much work it takes to do a number of things in the past.

What is going on with the advanced rules? All we hear is "it's being worked on"

What is going on with the conventional vehicle rules? I know for a fact they have had them for a couple of months now. I know because I helped vet them along with mike1975 and a few other MA's. When asked about a possible timeline on these, since many want to see these BEFORE purchasing the conventional vehicles, the answer received was essentially "I'm really busy and trying to get to them".

I have watched this whole fiasco from beginning to present. Palladium talks a good game about how they put priority on this, and how disappointed they are. It's time for the company to "man-up" and show it by actually giving us facts and proof of what is where for wave two. It is time for them to actually show they are putting priority on this by putting aside other projects to get things done like the advanced or conventional vehicle rules.

Look at their own lines... Ninjas and Superspies, Splicers, BtS (2nd ed), no new material in years or ever...stagnant and effectively dead with lots of empty promises to support them since their inception. RRT needs new material and new support to keep it relevant and capable of growing to be successful. Not empty promises to do so.

I've put my "money" where my mouth is for this game. Time for them to do the same.

As for the OP, while I like your effort to come up with alternative solutions for those who want out, most of those options result in getting only a couple of miniatures in place of a significantly higher number of what is owed, as "rewards", by comparison. For now, I'll just wait.

IGotMoose · Unread post by **IGotMoose** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:39 pm

How about option 6) They present a clear and concise business plan, with timelines, business partners and breakdown of funds and then continue down that path with regular detailed updates and transparency.

I believe, from all my talks with backers, that this is what is needed and what would satisfy (remove "ill will") ... not being bought off with other products and not just simply waiting.

wilycoyote · Unread post by **wilycoyote** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:51 pm

Totallly agtree with you Jamyz and would point to your proboard is a great example of what could and perhaps should be here. People who like the game enjoying talking about it and showing off models and sharing tips etc.

There iare positives for RTT, but sadly as PB do not want to have a dialogie with the backers , the forums here and on the KS site are inevitably going to be negative and full of rumours/speculation

mrwrightkkpsi · Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:15 pm

To the point of the post: why should any of us volunteer for a bait-and-switch? I'm not waiting on more VF-1's and Battle Pods and I would not have bought more of either than I already have. My pledge, and I'm sure most peoples, were based on getting particular numbers of particular models, many of which were relegated to a 'second wave' of product that there is no evidence of actually existing. While I am not saying litigation is the answer, volunteering to just get anything for your money (why not groceries?) does not solve anything (nor does stocking up on pieces of a miniature game that has died out and the models have little or no value).

I was inspired to chime in on this only because I saw Jaymz make a post. I am a vocal advocate of Robotech: I loan out DVD's and talk about the story and generally spread the love whenever possible. This game was no different- I am a member of the gaining community in my town and talked this up to a lot of the influential gamers (if there is such a thing) and retailers. I even became an ambassador here just for the hope of something more tangible coming to exist (tournament prizes, painted mini's for local stores to display, whatever etc.) as the game took hold. At this point, dissolution is probably the most positive description I could give of my feelings. Even assuming that Wave 2 hits by the end of the year (and no one in there right mind is really expecting that to happen) there is no positive vibe. The people who are waiting are the ones who have already paid and hope they don't get screwed! What game store has people calling to find out when the Armored VF-1's are going to ship? There is almost zero positive news, zero positive feedback, and zero positive web presence. Most of my local stores do not have it on the shelf. 30% off at Gencon? Sitting on some inventory there Kev?

Ultimately, I bought in on this game because it was the one available. This is the case of the wrong company publishing the wrong product. This, despite the stupid title it was given (sorry for the crass commentary, but I'm building momentum) is not a role playing game. People are not going to like it because they like the story of Robotech or Kevin's writing style or even Kevin. Robotech fans are mostly over 30 and have already decided whether or not they like building models. Your first chunk of sales will go to Robotech fans- even those who don't build models- and continued sales will go to people who play miniature games. Therefore, it has to be a good miniature game and has to have the support that successful miniature games are given. I am, and always have been, hoping for the best. It is to the point that I am expecting something very close to the worst.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:19 pm

I'd prefer either a refund on outstanding product (pro-rated to a proportional amount) or wave two itself. Even after selling a bunch of figures to help pay for our first Gencon trip, between us we still have far more wave one than we'll ever need (129 Battlepods, 54 VT's, 12 of each Destroid, etc), though only a fraction of what we own in sprues has been built.

Thus, more wave one has negative appeal (and if it were commonly sent out, flooding the market, then selling it off to recoup costs wouldn't be very effective), and while GHQ does quality work, we're not interested in a pile of pewter for forces none of us are particularly interested in using.

This leaves the 'convention figures', which similarly, simply enhance piles of figures we already have too many of (Max), or need to be in high multiples of to use without proxying others (Grell, Breetai, and SVT Miriya). FPA Miriya would indeed have some uses, but we certainly don't need piles of them, and even though we're owed a considerable amount of product (8 Battle Cry packs between us and another ~$210 in add ons), trading that for a couple dozen 'exclusives' would be a pretty poor return on that contribution.

For now we're waiting (semi) patiently (with a lot of eye rolling and mockery, natch) for actual tangible information on wave two.

If they offered a 'buy out' in product I could see us discussing the matter, but none of us are actively pursuing or fighting for compensation at this time. As the months drag on, however, I could see that changing.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:23 pm

mrwrightkkpsi wrote:(why not groceries?)

Because it's being suggested that PB could use stock that they have on hand (and can procure more of easily, like GHQ's works) to compensate backers who are done waiting on this project. The former is money already spent (and 30% off retail is likely more than they're getting for them from wholesale distributors, making it a net win for PB), and the latter is similarly something that they can presumably obtain at a lower cost and 'trade' to backers at a higher value than they paid (below retail but above wholesale).

Presumably this was just a throwaway joke, but the idea in general is sound, imo. Whether or not it appeals to those backers who are frustrated and want out is another question. As noted above, it's not yet there for me, but I am watching in rapt fascination as people pursue recompense.

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:21 pm

And now there's a fourth person going to the BBB. This seems to be snowballing. At this rate if enough backers contact the BBB and the AG it's only a matter of time till this affects PB's day to day operations and eventually it may lead to who knows what. PB needs to do something quick because it feels like this ship is sinking.

The Beast · Unread post by **The Beast** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:11 pm

Kryptt wrote:And now there's a fourth person going to the BBB. This seems to be snowballing. At this rate if enough backers contact the BBB and the AG it's only a matter of time till this affects PB's day to day operations and eventually it may lead to who knows what. PB needs to do something quick because it feels like this ship is sinking.

Don't worry. They already got rid of the last thread. They'll remove this one too, and it'll be smooth sailing from there.

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:15 pm

The Beast wrote:
Kryptt wrote:And now there's a fourth person going to the BBB. This seems to be snowballing. At this rate if enough backers contact the BBB and the AG it's only a matter of time till this affects PB's day to day operations and eventually it may lead to who knows what. PB needs to do something quick because it feels like this ship is sinking.

Don't worry. They already got rid of the last thread. They'll remove this one too, and it'll be smooth sailing from there.

You all do realize that no one is required to host illegal threats against them selves right?
So whining that they are removing posts that people are putting up that violate the terms of use of the forum, and are advocating something that is quite likely not legal are not in any way, shape or form, protected speech right?

rosco60559 · Unread post by **rosco60559** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:48 pm

For the op and the idea he had, I only want 1 of 2 things:
The wave 2 portion of my pledge
The refund for my wave 2 pledge
I had a 3rd thing but won't post it here.

I went with a reckless pledge and have more than enough wave 1 to choke a horse and do not want more.

Until either happens I want the actual info and communication promised numerous times by the project creator Pb.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:22 am

eliakon wrote:You all do realize that no one is required to host illegal threats against them selves right?
So whining that they are removing posts that people are putting up that violate the terms of use of the forum, and are advocating something that is quite likely not legal are not in any way, shape or form, protected speech right?

[Citation Needed] that these are illegal actions, let alone "threats".

It's their house, and PB (and the non-PB staff who admin this page) are well within their rights to remove posts as they see fit.

However, declaring distasteful discourse 'illegal' is a rather bold statement. Reaching out to the BBB is not illegal. Contacting state Attorney Generals is not illegal. If either of these are illegal then someone had better shut down the BBB and yell at some poorly informed AG's. If either of these are a waste of time or not actionable, then the BBB and AG's should be telling the complainants so. However, the BBB is proceeding with passing along those grievances as per their policies, and I trust AG's to sort out what is and isn't 'legal' more than 'some guy on a forum', unless you'd care to share which firm you're currently representing.

No, really, do, my buddy passed the bar a couple of years ago and I'm happy to put him in touch with people in the industry.

devillin · Unread post by **devillin** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:28 am

Forar wrote:
mrwrightkkpsi wrote:(why not groceries?)

Because it's being suggested that PB could use stock that they have on hand (and can procure more of easily, like GHQ's works) to compensate backers who are done waiting on this project. The former is money already spent (and 30% off retail is likely more than they're getting for them from wholesale distributors, making it a net win for PB), and the latter is similarly something that they can presumably obtain at a lower cost and 'trade' to backers at a higher value than they paid (below retail but above wholesale).

That is exactly my point. Since I didn't realize they were selling stuff at Gencon for 30% off retail, I'd change my suggestion to 50% off retail for the backers. This is stuff they already have on-hand, or can get very cheap, so it wouldn't really affect their bottom line for whatever funding they are scraping together to finish Wave Two.

Presumably this was just a throwaway joke, but the idea in general is sound, imo. Whether or not it appeals to those backers who are frustrated and want out is another question. As noted above, it's not yet there for me, but I am watching in rapt fascination as people pursue recompense.

Nope, no joke. When you look at the complaints, they seem to have two groups. One of the groups just want their money back. As has been suggested elsewhere, the money from this KS has been spent on producing Wave One, and Palladium has been scraping money together from other sources to finish producing Wave Two. Given that, and the financial status of the company, no money will ever be seen by anyone trying to sue them. They owe too much money to other people, who's debts would come first, for any suing backer to see any kind of refund. So if Palladium could get them to drop their claims with an exchange of other merchandise, why not go for it? The second group seem to be complaining solely for the purpose of actually getting Wave Two produced so that they can actually play them. I'd imagine that the vast majority of these folks would only take option 5.

As for myself, I'd only take option 5, but Palladium does need to sweeten the pot for making us wait so long. Even McDonalds will give you extra pies, or upgrade your meal to the next larger size if they take too long getting your food to you. At this point, to counteract the ill-will they've generated, Palladium could do no less.

rosco60559 · Unread post by **rosco60559** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:30 am

I don't know what McDonald's you're going too but I never saw them upgrade my meal or hand over free stuff in 20 plus years.

This entire situation could have been avoided if pb just informed us about the status of THIS project. Not give 2 months of "soon" that ended with a double update history/blame everyone else/sales pitch, or the distraction attempt of scale for future stuff, and certainly not the return of "soon"/buy this stuff.
Sadly I'm expecting my heavy gear pledge to show up long before wave 2. That would make 2 projects that completed before rrt.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:38 am

devillin wrote:Nope, no joke.

I was talking about the "why not groceries?" aspect.

Because PB isn't a grocery store. :-P

Your suggestion to convert existing product (a sunk cost) into backer alleviation isn't a bad one. It means they're not getting money from those kits (from wholesale or web/convention sales), but it's also money already spent, as opposed to requiring further capital.

bielmic · Unread post by **bielmic** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:21 pm

I would support the option of giving backers their choice of current available product (both Robotech and others) from existing Palladium stock as long as it was an EQUAL value swap. For Robotech items, the original 2013 agreed upon prices would be used and for non-RRPGT stuff the current retail prices would be used. For instance, if someone is still owed $160 worth of wave 2 product, they could instead choose to receive $160 worth of in stock Palladium product instead with free shipping (since it was included in the KS cost) and consider their pledge fulfilled. So, you could instead of your wave 2 stuff get two core boxes since they were $80 each in 2013 (First Contact pledge). Or one core box ($80) and then $80 of in stock RPG and accessory product with no restrictions but at current prices. I don't know how much $ worth of product is still outstanding from the standard Battlecry pledge so the numbers above are just an example. I'd find that acceptable as a backer who is completely disgusted with how Palladium has and currently is conducting themselves regarding this project and would consider the contract fulfilled.

I would NOT be acceptable if they started added exclusions about which products you could or could not order or if they wanted to do a semi-random grab bag instead (where you're not choosing items yourself technically but "requesting") or if they wanted to use the newer higher current prices for existing RRPGT products instead (like charging current prices for add ons and core sets instead of the 2013 agreed upon KS prices). If it is available in the Palladium store, you should be able to include it for the appropriate price (see above). That would be an appropriate reparation for backers who have done NOTHING wrong and lived up 100% to their end of the bargain but simply are tired of the drama and don't want to put up with further silence, sales pitches, distractions, and delays.

The Beast · Unread post by **The Beast** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:56 pm

bielmic wrote:I would support the option of giving backers their choice of current available product (both Robotech and others) from existing Palladium stock as long as it was an EQUAL value swap.

While I think that's a fair trade, that wouldn't go over to well with those who aren't into Palladium's RPGs. Also, if I were a backer, at this point such a deal wouldn't really do me any good. I have just about every book for the settings I like, and I don't want free books from the settings I don't like.

wilycoyote · Unread post by **wilycoyote** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:14 pm

Surely that is the point, the vast majority of backers are likely to have pledged based on the fact this was Robotech and had no consideration of any other PB product. So while a few might be interested in what amount to a swap, most simply want what was promised.

Yes there is a current wave of people moving to litigation (a very small percentage) but the overwhelming call has not changed for months now. Show us actual progress on Wave 2, prove that you are still moving forward and that we will get what was pledged for.

It is really that simple, stop hiding and tell those who put up money what is going on and of course deliver on your promises

bielmic · Unread post by **bielmic** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:51 pm

It's not for everyone which is why I labelled it an option... but it would be something..anything. It's a way out for those who simply are permanently unhappy with how this project has been (mis)handled from the beginning (day 2 post KS). Palladium has already acknowledged that the original dates were completely unrealistic and tha they didn't know what they were (or apparently are) doing. What they haven't done is give any backers any fair and equitable recourse to cash out BECAUSE of those mistakes that were either directly Palladium's doing (like the incredibly poor communication of the last 6 months or the misleading communication of the previous year and a half)... or indirectly their fault (by not doing due diligence in hiring partners capable of doing the job right). Allowing backers to instead get an equal amount of value in items from their existing stock without tacking on any additional restrictions at least shows real actionable effort on the part of Palladium to make things right instead of just silence alternating with vague promises of progress without any proof.

There are folks who don't believe Palladium will ever deliver wave 2 and this would at least get them something in return for that portion of the value of their pledges. They could either use it (if they're Rifts or Robotech RPG players) or at a minimum sell it themselves on ebay instead; both are better options that nothing and nothing is all most backers have gotten in 2015.

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:49 pm

bielmic wrote:It's not for everyone which is why I labelled it an option... but it would be something..anything. It's a way out for those who simply are permanently unhappy with how this project has been (mis)handled from the beginning (day 2 post KS). Palladium has already acknowledged that the original dates were completely unrealistic and tha they didn't know what they were (or apparently are) doing. What they haven't done is give any backers any fair and equitable recourse to cash out BECAUSE of those mistakes that were either directly Palladium's doing (like the incredibly poor communication of the last 6 months or the misleading communication of the previous year and a half)... or indirectly their fault (by not doing due diligence in hiring partners capable of doing the job right). Allowing backers to instead get an equal amount of value in items from their existing stock without tacking on any additional restrictions at least shows real actionable effort on the part of Palladium to make things right instead of just silence alternating with vague promises of progress without any proof.

There are folks who don't believe Palladium will ever deliver wave 2 and this would at least get them something in return for that portion of the value of their pledges. They could either use it (if they're Rifts or Robotech RPG players) or at a minimum sell it themselves on ebay instead; both are better options that nothing and nothing is all most backers have gotten in 2015.

I seriously wonder when I read posts like this if the angry backers bothered to read how Kickstarter works before pledging?

Kickstarters are a gamble, you are investing in something that the Creator thinks they can do. It is not a guarantee and Things Happen <tm>. Which means that unless there is actual, provable negligence or embezzlement that delays, slowdowns and even out right failures happen. There is no 'entitlement to a refund' unless the Creator cancels a project and still has money left at the time of the cancelation.
Is it frustrating when you back something and it takes longer than planned, or turns out to be Vaporware? Heck yes it is. But that is the nature of Kickstarter....your taking risks. That is why there are backer bonuses.....because those backers are risking money that they may not ever get back if the project fails.

bielmic · Unread post by **bielmic** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:07 pm

eliakon wrote:I seriously wonder when I read posts like this if the angry backers bothered to read how Kickstarter works before pledging?

Kickstarters are a gamble, you are investing in something that the Creator thinks they can do. It is not a guarantee and Things Happen <tm>. Which means that unless there is actual, provable negligence or embezzlement that delays, slowdowns and even out right failures happen. There is no 'entitlement to a refund' unless the Creator cancels a project and still has money left at the time of the cancelation.
Is it frustrating when you back something and it takes longer than planned, or turns out to be Vaporware? Heck yes it is. But that is the nature of Kickstarter....your taking risks. That is why there are backer bonuses.....because those backers are risking money that they may not ever get back if the project fails.

And I seriously wonder when I read posts like your's if you've read the Kickstarter site terms as well or a dictionary. If a creator can't deliver, he or she isn't off the hook for the rewards. No where does it say that. It's not "a gamble". Also, just because the delivery date is listed as an estimate doesn't mean that the creator gets carte blanche to fulfill it at their leisure 1,2, 5, or 10 years late. If you're 400% late and counting from the original date given when taking the money, the original date wasn't an estimate but rather was a wild guess with no basis in reality. It doesn't absolve the creator from either refunding the money or completing the rewards. Devoting 5 minutes of work a week or making a single phone call doesn't make a project "ongoing" to satisfy the requirements either.

If you want to gamble, I suggest you go to Las Vegas and not the kickstarter website because backing kickstarter projects is NOT gambling. I didn't "gamble" on this project; I backed it based on the promises made by PALLADIUM in the contract we both agreed to. I held up my side of the contract completely and paid in full. Instead of taking 7 months from the agreement to create all the minis kickstarter, Palladium has still to produce over half the sculpts and it is looking less and less likely that they will fulfill their end of the contract within 30!!! months of the agreement. That isn't an "estimate" by any reasonable definition and yet Palladium is unwilling to compensate those backers who are waiting MUCH longer than promised in any other way. The above suggestion is simply one way Palladium could at least give some of the backers closure and an alternate method for Palladium to fulfill their obligations from their existing stock. That is the least they could do given that this project is taking 400% longer (and counting!) than what they agreed to.

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:06 pm

bielmic wrote:
eliakon wrote:I seriously wonder when I read posts like this if the angry backers bothered to read how Kickstarter works before pledging?

Kickstarters are a gamble, you are investing in something that the Creator thinks they can do. It is not a guarantee and Things Happen <tm>. Which means that unless there is actual, provable negligence or embezzlement that delays, slowdowns and even out right failures happen. There is no 'entitlement to a refund' unless the Creator cancels a project and still has money left at the time of the cancelation.
Is it frustrating when you back something and it takes longer than planned, or turns out to be Vaporware? Heck yes it is. But that is the nature of Kickstarter....your taking risks. That is why there are backer bonuses.....because those backers are risking money that they may not ever get back if the project fails.

And I seriously wonder when I read posts like your's if you've read the Kickstarter site terms as well or a dictionary. If a creator can't deliver, he or she isn't off the hook for the rewards. No where does it say that. It's not "a gamble". Also, just because the delivery date is listed as an estimate doesn't mean that the creator gets carte blanche to fulfill it at their leisure 1,2, 5, or 10 years late. If you're 400% late and counting from the original date given when taking the money, the original date wasn't an estimate but rather was a wild guess with no basis in reality. It doesn't absolve the creator from either refunding the money or completing the rewards. Devoting 5 minutes of work a week or making a single phone call doesn't make a project "ongoing" to satisfy the requirements either.

If you want to gamble, I suggest you go to Las Vegas and not the kickstarter website because backing kickstarter projects is NOT gambling. I didn't "gamble" on this project; I backed it based on the promises made by PALLADIUM in the contract we both agreed to. I held up my side of the contract completely and paid in full. Instead of taking 7 months from the agreement to create all the minis kickstarter, Palladium has still to produce over half the sculpts and it is looking less and less likely that they will fulfill their end of the contract within 30!!! months of the agreement. That isn't an "estimate" by any reasonable definition and yet Palladium is unwilling to compensate those backers who are waiting MUCH longer than promised in any other way. The above suggestion is simply one way Palladium could at least give some of the backers closure and an alternate method for Palladium to fulfill their obligations from their existing stock. That is the least they could do given that this project is taking 400% longer (and counting!) than what they agreed to.

That's just it though.....you did NOT back it up with a contract, this is not some investment deal. You pledged money to a Kickstarter that Palladium said "we believe we can do X by Y date for Z dollars" The fact that X may not actually be do able, that Y date may have been optimistic and that it may cost more than Z does not mean that you are entitled to a refund. I will agree that backers are entitled to ongoing status reports on the progress of the project (as per the Kickstarter guidelines) but if the project is actually being worked on then Palladium is fulfilling their obligations. If there are, for instance, problems with getting the model sculpt done that comes under the Things Happen clause not the Its A Conspiracy To Cheat People clause. As long as Palladium is actually working on the issue and trying to make it happen then they are doing exactly what they are supposed to do. If you were not willing to take the risk that the timeline may not be followed, then you should not have pledged.....

And yes I will agree that Palladium really needs to work on their communications. HOWEVER I don't really have any sympathy for the backers on THAT issue since if anyone had done their due diligence on this project they would know that the company they were giving money to has a pretty long track record of spotty and less than satisfying communications. I don't say its good or bad, just that it is what it is. Personally I don't have the slightest problem with the Palladium communications record. Its not as good as I would like, sure, but I come into this knowing that. I had suspicions when I saw the Kickstarter that this would happen. I recall the issues with the Northern Gun Kickstarter. And I also remember that cries of Woe and Doom <tm> aside there seem to be copies of Northern Gun 1 and Northern Gun 2 on my bookshelf.....

bielmic · Unread post by **bielmic** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:18 pm

eliakon wrote:That's just it though.....you did NOT back it up with a contract, this is not some investment deal.

Now I know FOR A FACT that you haven't bothered to read the Kickstarter TOS yet you strangely seem very intent to "correct" others on what they have or have not done despite that lack of knowledge. Here is the pertinent part of the TOS that applied when Palladium ran their Kickstarter.

Projects: Fundraising and Commerce

Kickstarter is a platform where Project Creators run campaigns to fund creative projects by offering rewards to raise money from Backers. By creating a fundraising campaign on Kickstarter, you as the Project Creator are offering the public the opportunity to enter into a contract with you. By backing a fundraising campaign on Kickstarter, you as the Backer accept that offer and the contract between Backer and Project Creator is formed. Kickstarter is not a party to that agreement between the Backer and Project Creator. All dealings are solely between Users.

https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/oct2012

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:29 pm

Yes, Kickstarter is very, very clear about Kickstarter not having any hand or responsibility if things go south, but this "it's a gamble" narrative is absolutely incorrect.

That it may be delayed is certainly a possibility. That it might not be quite as originally designed or anticipated. That it might have unforeseen flaws or other issues can absolutely happen. And yes, it may even fail.

But several Kickstarters now have failed and been forced to pay back or declare bankruptcy.

It's not an iron clad guaranteed settlement, but it's also not an everything-proof shield either. Creators are expected to work and communicate in good faith. 6 months with zero tangible information on wave two, and the only 'updates' being vague promises, misdirection in the form of a scale discussion, and attempts to sell us more stuff, is absolutely not communicating in good faith.

They took 19 pages to tell us how they saved Anime in north america and how the dastardly Ninja Division betrayed them, but can't take a few minutes to explain where everything in wave two is on the production cycle.

Oh because Wayne is compiling that information.

For the last 10 weeks.

Also, it is noteworthy that NG1 and 2 finally completed after the RRT KS' funds were handed over. It's always been a bit of a questionable bit of timing, but who knows, there may well be a "you're welcome" in there for that as well. If if the funds weren't misappropriated, I'm sure that having such an influx must've freed up some time and other resources spent otherwise trying to keep the lights on, which could have easily led to such a triumphant delivery... like a year or two late or whatever they were.

bielmic · Unread post by **bielmic** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:30 pm

eliakon wrote:The fact that X may not actually be do able, that Y date may have been optimistic and that it may cost more than Z does not mean that you are entitled to a refund.

Actually, yes, two of the three there ARE absolutely grounds for a refund. From the TOS that you've never read:

A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward.
Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.

So, yes, if "the fact that Z may not actually be do able" [sic] or "that it may cost more than Z" does indeed mean backers are entitled to a refund according to the CONTRACT that palladium entered into with each and every backer when they accepted the money. Doing so by "that Y date" is more nebulous and a court would have to apply a reasonable definition to the date and when the delay effectively constitutes not fulfilling it. It isn't a cut and dry 5 minutes a week means I'm still working on it and you don't get a refund definition like you're proposing. You may be fine with waiting 5 years for RRPGT to finish fulfilling; others are not. I fulfilled my end of the contract completely and in a timely fashion; palladium has not. The failure is completely on the creator side and THEY should be the ones to offer redress to backers that want it, not for those backers to just sit back and wait for 6+ months for any sign of life in this project (ironically after a "restart" of the conversation months ago that was supposed to fix that). Offering backers who want out the equivalent amount of product from existing stock instead of waiting another 0.5-2 years is a fair and reasonable offer that doesn't cost Palladium money immediately other than for shipping. Since they're supposedly very short of money as the primary reason for this delay according to the rumor mill (which is sadly the ONLY source of credible info we have since the negative nancy rumor mill has been MORE predictive of the path of this Kickstarter than any official update), that saves palladium some money when making wave 2 and gets rid of stock sitting in their warehouse costing them money. On top of that, it might restore some good will with the community as well since it shows demonstrable proof that they're trying to make up for THEIR mistakes. Unfortunately, all of that means we'll likely never see anything close to it.

The Beast · Unread post by **The Beast** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:54 pm

Forar wrote:Yes, Kickstarter is very, very clear about Kickstarter not having any hand or responsibility if things go south, but this "it's a gamble" narrative is absolutely incorrect.

That it may be delayed is certainly a possibility. That it might not be quite as originally designed or anticipated. That it might have unforeseen flaws or other issues can absolutely happen. And yes, it may even fail.

But several Kickstarters now have failed and been forced to pay back or declare bankruptcy.

It's not an iron clad guaranteed settlement, but it's also not an everything-proof shield either. Creators are expected to work and communicate in good faith. 6 months with zero tangible information on wave two, and the only 'updates' being vague promises, misdirection in the form of a scale discussion, and attempts to sell us more stuff, is absolutely not communicating in good faith.

They took 19 pages to tell us how they saved Anime in north america and how the dastardly Ninja Division betrayed them, but can't take a few minutes to explain where everything in wave two is on the production cycle.

Oh because Wayne is compiling that information.

For the last 10 weeks.

Also, it is noteworthy that NG1 and 2 finally completed after the RRT KS' funds were handed over. It's always been a bit of a questionable bit of timing, but who knows, there may well be a "you're welcome" in there for that as well. If if the funds weren't misappropriated, I'm sure that having such an influx must've freed up some time and other resources spent otherwise trying to keep the lights on, which could have easily led to such a triumphant delivery... like a year or two late or whatever they were.

Wait, when did that happen?

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:20 pm

Updates 178 and 179, aka "the history of everything".

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:21 pm

bielmic wrote:
eliakon wrote:The fact that X may not actually be do able, that Y date may have been optimistic and that it may cost more than Z does not mean that you are entitled to a refund.

Actually, yes, two of the three there ARE absolutely grounds for a refund. From the TOS that you've never read:

A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward.
Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.

So, yes, if "the fact that Z may not actually be do able" [sic] or "that it may cost more than Z" does indeed mean backers are entitled to a refund according to the CONTRACT that palladium entered into with each and every backer when they accepted the money. Doing so by "that Y date" is more nebulous and a court would have to apply a reasonable definition to the date and when the delay effectively constitutes not fulfilling it. It isn't a cut and dry 5 minutes a week means I'm still working on it and you don't get a refund definition like you're proposing. You may be fine with waiting 5 years for RRPGT to finish fulfilling; others are not. I fulfilled my end of the contract completely and in a timely fashion; palladium has not. The failure is completely on the creator side and THEY should be the ones to offer redress to backers that want it, not for those backers to just sit back and wait for 6+ months for any sign of life in this project (ironically after a "restart" of the conversation months ago that was supposed to fix that). Offering backers who want out the equivalent amount of product from existing stock instead of waiting another 0.5-2 years is a fair and reasonable offer that doesn't cost Palladium money immediately other than for shipping. Since they're supposedly very short of money as the primary reason for this delay according to the rumor mill (which is sadly the ONLY source of credible info we have since the negative nancy rumor mill has been MORE predictive of the path of this Kickstarter than any official update), that saves palladium some money when making wave 2 and gets rid of stock sitting in their warehouse costing them money. On top of that, it might restore some good will with the community as well since it shows demonstrable proof that they're trying to make up for THEIR mistakes. Unfortunately, all of that means we'll likely never see anything close to it.

Note that word "UNABLE"
If Palladium is unable to make the mecha, but they are working on it, then no they do not have to provide a refund. Now if they were sitting on a bunch of Wave 2 boxes and refused to provide the rewards that would be different.
But since its not a choice.....yeah no refund is required
Or put another way....if the project is still working to provide the rewards, then there is no clause that says that people can simply decide to back out of the project at a late date and demand their money back. That's not how it works. It is only if the project is successful (i.e. in this case produces Wave 2) that mandatory rewards/refunds kick in, not while the project is still in the 'working' phase....

Summersnow · Unread post by **Summersnow** » Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:02 am

Couple of thoughts here

First, the White Knights seem to have totally missed the fact that these people are going to BBB as a LAST RESORT. Some have been trying to contact PB and get information on wave 2 for nearly a year. Any hardship this causes PB is ENTIRELY PB's fault. You should be looking at this as more of a desperate last gasp effort to get PB & Keven to step down from there ivory tower and at least glance in the general direction and throw a few crumbs of real information there way AND SHOULD BE SUPPORTING PEOPLES EFFORTS TO GET REAL INFO ON WAVE 2, not condemning them.

BECAUSE, if you do not support them then the next and final step is to start taking irreversible legal actions that will not end well for PB.

There is enough of a track record to indicate State AG's and now the federal government are taking a very dim view of people & companies who use KS to raise cash for projects they never finish.

Secondly, the misguided belief that a "few malcontents are ruining the game" just needs to stop.

There is NOTHING on this earth a few malcontents could EVER do to ruin a game, UNLESS IT WAS ALREADY FLAWED AND HAD SERIOUS ISSUES ASSOCIATED WITH IT.

This game is being ruined by one and ONLY one group of people and that is Kevin & Palladium. The delays, lack of information, lack of promotion, complete cluster%$^# of a starter pack, complete and utter disregard and disrespect shown the backers are what is ruining this game.

Nothing a "few malcontents" could say would harm this game if Kevin and Palladium did not ignore the game, the issues or the customers the way they do.

Lastly, I would AGAIN go back to my first point. Many of the people reporting to BBB are doing so in an effort to save the future of this game from Kevin & pb's apparent lack of interest and perhaps even incompetence by FORCING them to provide the information they should have provided months ago and most certainly NEED to provide NOW.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:33 am

Summersnow wrote:Couple of thoughts here

First, the White Knights seem to have totally missed the fact that these people are going to BBB as a LAST RESORT. Some have been trying to contact PB and get information on wave 2 for nearly a year. Any hardship this causes PB is ENTIRELY PB's fault. You should be looking at this as more of a desperate last gasp effort to get PB & Keven to step down from there ivory tower and at least glance in the general direction and throw a few crumbs of real information there way AND SHOULD BE SUPPORTING PEOPLES EFFORTS TO GET REAL INFO ON WAVE 2, not condemning them.

BECAUSE, if you do not support them then the next and final step is to start taking irreversible legal actions that will not end well for PB.

There is enough of a track record to indicate State AG's and now the federal government are taking a very dim view of people & companies who use KS to raise cash for projects they never finish.

Secondly, the misguided belief that a "few malcontents are ruining the game" just needs to stop.

There is NOTHING on this earth a few malcontents could EVER do to ruin a game, UNLESS IT WAS ALREADY FLAWED AND HAD SERIOUS ISSUES ASSOCIATED WITH IT.

This game is being ruined by one and ONLY one group of people and that is Kevin & Palladium. The delays, lack of information, lack of promotion, complete cluster%$^# of a starter pack, complete and utter disregard and disrespect shown the backers are what is ruining this game.

Nothing a "few malcontents" could say would harm this game if Kevin and Palladium did not ignore the game, the issues or the customers the way they do.

Lastly, I would AGAIN go back to my first point. Many of the people reporting to BBB are doing so in an effort to save the future of this game from Kevin & pb's apparent lack of interest and perhaps even incompetence by FORCING them to provide the information they should have provided months ago and most certainly NEED to provide NOW.

very well stated. I feel bad for those buying into the scapegoating of the unhappy backers. They cared enough to support Palladium in the Kickstarter and believe what was posted when they pledged. Years later now they have every right to be questioning progress and the secretive behavior that Palladium is using giving little info on actual progress of wave two is what is the real problem here. Not the delays, not the tons of pieces...those are flaws, but the real problem here is the lack of communication with the backers directly on the Kickstarter page.

Morgan Vening · Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:16 pm

eliakon wrote:
A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward.
Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.
*snip bielmic's quote*

Note that word "UNABLE"
If Palladium is unable to make the mecha, but they are working on it, then no they do not have to provide a refund. Now if they were sitting on a bunch of Wave 2 boxes and refused to provide the rewards that would be different.
But since its not a choice.....yeah no refund is required
Or put another way....if the project is still working to provide the rewards, then there is no clause that says that people can simply decide to back out of the project at a late date and demand their money back. That's not how it works. It is only if the project is successful (i.e. in this case produces Wave 2) that mandatory rewards/refunds kick in, not while the project is still in the 'working' phase....

And that's what legal action would determine. You make the assertion that PB are in the "working phase". But all we've got to go on this are one set of 5 works in progress (that could be from much earlier), almost six months ago, and PB's assertion that they are "actively" working on it. Yet despite those multiple assertions, six months later, there's still no tangible evidence that they have. If there were, the talk of legal action would likely not exist.

Sure, the courts may rule that those assertions (with nothing of substance backing it) warrant being "able" to make the product, and deny people a refund. Or they may require a look at accounting books and the actual progress to see if they are able. Or they may decide that two plus years is sufficiently "unwilling or unable", and anyone who wants a refund is entitled to one. There are many different ways this could go. And it's the reason the courts exist, to adjudicate these matters.

As you seem to want to take an extremely literal approach to the Terms and Conditions, how would you square the following line? "If a creator is making a good faith effort to complete their project and is transparent about it, backers should do their best to be patient and understanding while demanding continued accountability from the creator."

In what other manner, given the absence of being transparent, and the silence from PB to requests for Wave 2 information, can backers demand accountability, without resorting to legal remedies, like the BBB and potential other avenues?

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:27 pm

Summersnow wrote:Couple of thoughts here

First, the White Knights seem.........

Yeah, I can see how productive a discussion is when dissent proves that your some sort of delusional fan boy of the other side.....
And people wonder why the Robotech Franchise has such a bad name?
Sorry for disrupting the thread I now return you to your regularly scheduled Echo Chamber.

wilycoyote · Unread post by **wilycoyote** » Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:24 pm

I would be interested Eliakon if you are a "backer" of RTT or have you even purchased the game? I cannot believe if you were a backer you would be going so far to defend the indenfensible.

You seem happy enough to wade in andf dismiss myself and fellow backers as people who did not know what KS funding means, but on the other hand seem totally unwilling to accept that this is a two way street and the creator has as much (I could argue more) onus on them in the contract, as they ultimately need to deliver on their promises.

Money (a lot of money)was pledged and the continued reluctance of PB to engage in any sort of dialogue with the backers , is frankly damning evidence of some real issues in getting this done

bielmic · Unread post by **bielmic** » Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:59 pm

eliakon wrote:
Summersnow wrote:Couple of thoughts here

First, the White Knights seem.........

Yeah, I can see how productive a discussion is when dissent proves that your some sort of delusional fan boy of the other side.....
And people wonder why the Robotech Franchise has such a bad name?
Sorry for disrupting the thread I now return you to your regularly scheduled Echo Chamber.

Sorry but you don't have any right to play the martyr. You posted multiple times purely from a standpoint of emotion with no basis in fact in your zeal to defend Palladium. That is the kind of dissent that gets one labelled a "delusional fan boy" (your words, not mine). If you need an example, please refer to your vehement post about there being no contract in the kickstarter... a position you held strongly enough to "correct" fellow posters without ever actually reading the TOS. That is only one example (which you've also completely ignored since being corrected yourself on the actual facts). You're obviously emotionally invested in this so I hope you appreciate that backers who have money invested in this (though it is NOT an investment nor a gamble as you've previously said) are even more. Some to the point that they're quoting the TOS and palladium's own completely voluntary promises made and completely broken or ignored since. Dissent is one thing and a reasonable (if contentious) thing to post but if you post nonsense then you should expect to have folks point it out. And instead of admitting you were wrong, you just moved the goalposts to the next nonsense. That isn't appreciated nor productive to the discussion.

Summersnow · Unread post by **Summersnow** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:57 pm

eliakon wrote:
Summersnow wrote:Couple of thoughts here

First, the White Knights seem.........

Yeah, I can see how productive a discussion is when dissent proves that your some sort of delusional fan boy of the other side.....
And people wonder why the Robotech Franchise has such a bad name?
Sorry for disrupting the thread I now return you to your regularly scheduled Echo Chamber.

You mean comments like yours

"The problem with the 'community' is that there are a small number of highly vocal people who turn every discussion into an attack on Palladium."

Yeah, I can see how productive a discussion is when dissent proves that your some sort of highly vocal minority who turns every discussion into an attack on Palladium.....
And people wonder why the Robotech Franchise has such a bad name?

Dude, if your going to whine about this sort of thing, DO NOT be the one who started it first in the thread.

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:42 pm

I've seen other KS creators show were their money is being spent and they also explain the situation when there is a delay too. This project doesn't seem to have that. I do appreciate the tone of the latest update. Quick and to the point. Nobody was blamed (especially the people who gave PB funds for rrt) and there was no emotional angst. I noticed nobody had anything mean to say on the latest update. Everyone that posted has been constructive and positive.

Alpha 11 · Unread post by **Alpha 11** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:44 pm

Kryptt wrote:I've seen other KS creators show were their money is being spent and they also explain the situation when there is a delay too. This project doesn't seem to have that. I do appreciate the tone of the latest update. Quick and to the point. Nobody was blamed (especially the people who gave PB funds for rrt) and there was no emotional angst. I noticed nobody had anything mean to say on the latest update. Everyone that posted has been constructive and positive.

Now, hopefully, they can keep this up.

slaaneshgod · Unread post by **slaaneshgod** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:33 pm

I hope they continue this trend. I like the latest update and the activity of them posting cards on drive thru is also a good sign. I truly wish that they keep up this trend and it would definitely be a great step in my happiness. I know the new minis are fantastic too. That Breetai! Almost home to see some of the mecha from the new marines sourcebook.

Alpha 11 · Unread post by **Alpha 11** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:06 pm

slaaneshgod wrote:I hope they continue this trend. I like the latest update and the activity of them posting cards on drive thru is also a good sign. I truly wish that they keep up this trend and it would definitely be a great step in my happiness. I know the new minis are fantastic too. That Breetai! Almost home to see some of the mecha from the new marines sourcebook.

Ya, like them myself. The female armors are deadly! And the Marine book is great, IMO.