Are there any MAJOR rules problems?

[Spinachcat]

Anyone encounter any rules problem that cause major problems at the table?

Any units which are clearly over/under valued?

Is there an uber-tactic for either faction?

[zyanitevp]

Anyone encounter any rules problem that cause major problems at the table?

Any units which are clearly over/under valued?

Is there an uber-tactic for either faction?

The blast rules are being redone

[Jerell]

Awwwww shucks. I haven't even had a chance to abuse them yet...

[Alpha 11]

Awwwww shucks. I haven't even had a chance to abuse them yet...

Anyone encounter any rules problem that cause major problems at the table?

Any units which are clearly over/under valued?

Is there an uber-tactic for either faction?

The blast rules are being redone

Ya, really didn't like them at all. In the last game I was in, in the Open House tournament, we were allowed to delay putting units one the board if we wanted to. I put everything on, in the hopes of bliezing the other guy, and he only put one. That one unit had 2 Defenders and 2 Phanizes. The Defenders had the upgraded ammo, and to make it worse, low gravity, so no role with impact and my Destroids were very slow. So if he didn't have line of sight, he'd target the ground near by, and the blast would get me. That one unit wiped out half of my forces and they were hardly damaged or not at all. Needless to say, I had already gotten curb stomped a couple of times already that day, and after a while, it gets to you. I conceded the game. Didn't get past the 2nd turn IIRR.

[Spinachcat]

That's a problem. That should have been seen in playtesting.

[wilycoyote]

One abuse of the rules at the moment is the "Pod Can Can Line".

I believe the use of the over complex melee rules (RPG derived?) has made it easier to close on the UEDF with a groups of Pods and literally kicjk them to death - multiple opponents in meleee etc. Given "life is cheap" and the judiscious use of the Glaug,to back this up, in our games - albeit limited numbers - this is seen as a way to go.

[Forar]

Well, the question is basically 'is this an oversight/exploit/abuse of the Rules As Intended', or does the 'meta' simply need to adjust?

Look at Starcraft 2, a game with immense efforts in place to balance it. The 'zergling rush' was a horrifying tactic, and while not unstoppable, if utilized properly it was devastating. Between a mix of rules adjustments and player adaptation, it lost much of its sting as an opening (and all 3 races certainly have highly aggressive and frustrating styles to play against).

Perhaps it is overpowered. Or perhaps Zentraedi players simply need Wave Two figures to better compete (tougher units like FPA that can take the punishment, Gnerls that are fast enough to close in and lay down some punishment, etc).

Right now we're looking at an incomplete set of force construction/tactical choices on both sides. So blast might be 'broken' now, but if 'fixed' to better align with wave one, will it be over-neutered with the introduction of wave two?

Of course, that's not for me to decide, but it is a consideration.

[Alpha 11]

One abuse of the rules at the moment is the "Pod Can Can Line".

I believe the use of the over complex melee rules (RPG derived?) has made it easier to close on the UEDF with a groups of Pods and literally kicjk them to death - multiple opponents in meleee etc. Given "life is cheap" and the judiscious use of the Glaug,to back this up, in our games - albeit limited numbers - this is seen as a way to go.

Never had any problems like that happen to me in the tournament. AND, that is IF they can close the gap to melee range and not get killed before hand.

[glitterboy2098]

on facebook there have been some people complaining the heavy particle cannon artillery pods (the ones with the twin PBC's instead of missiles, i forget the name) need a range increase on their special guns.. they think those big heavy weapons only being as long ranged as the lighter ones common to all pods is odd, and want an increase so it's more useful.

[Spinachcat]

Right now we're looking at an incomplete set of force construction/tactical choices on both sides. So blast might be 'broken' now, but if 'fixed' to better align with wave one, will it be over-neutered with the introduction of wave two?

You bring up an excellent point.

[wilycoyote]

Looking at it again, I think "fair comment" about the issue we have, it may be the way we play.

[PATACK]

Head over to the rules section in the forum and you'll see LOTS of talk on the Blast rules. There are other rules as well (issues with flying, for example) that have been questioned and answered. If Blast is not fixed by Wave 2, this game will be unplayable due to the large number of mecha that will have Blast weapons. My group has already dumped the RAW and come up with our own rules which we've been using for some time to good effect.

This weekend I had my first experience with seeing a Valk kicked to death by 4 Regults. And there is nothing you can do to avoid it.

on facebook there have been some people complaining the heavy particle cannon artillery pods (the ones with the twin PBC's instead of missiles, i forget the name) need a range increase on their special guns.. they think those big heavy weapons only being as long ranged as the lighter ones common to all pods is odd, and want an increase so it's more useful.

Agree - the Telnesta has those cannons that hit hard, but have the same exact range as the standard main gun of all Regults. Does not make much sense at all.

[Everyman]

We have not had as many issues as others with the blast rules but they could use some tweaking. I have to agree on the Telnesta guns needing more range. Another issue that we have found is the afterburner rule. Making it mandatory movement rather than optional will really make the Glaug Eldarre fairly useless as a command unit for reinforcements, as it is almost impossible to keep it in range of its pods.

[Alpha 11]

We have not had as many issues as others with the blast rules but they could use some tweaking. I have to agree on the Telnesta guns needing more range. Another issue that we have found is the afterburner rule. Making it mandatory movement rather than optional will really make the Glaug Eldarre fairly useless as a command unit for reinforcements, as it is almost impossible to keep it in range of its pods.

Ya, I was always afraid my veritechs would fly off the board with that rule, so I kept them in guardian during the tournament at the OH.

[slaaneshgod]

Afterburner isn't bad really. No worse then most planes in wargames are and the elders should run with the gnerls instead of pods to help with that.

[Alpha 11]

Head over to the rules section in the forum and you'll see LOTS of talk on the Blast rules. There are other rules as well (issues with flying, for example) that have been questioned and answered. If Blast is not fixed by Wave 2, this game will be unplayable due to the large number of mecha that will have Blast weapons. My group has already dumped the RAW and come up with our own rules which we've been using for some time to good effect.

This weekend I had my first experience with seeing a Valk kicked to death by 4 Regults. And there is nothing you can do to avoid it.

on facebook there have been some people complaining the heavy particle cannon artillery pods (the ones with the twin PBC's instead of missiles, i forget the name) need a range increase on their special guns.. they think those big heavy weapons only being as long ranged as the lighter ones common to all pods is odd, and want an increase so it's more useful.

Agree - the Telnesta has those cannons that hit hard, but have the same exact range as the standard main gun of all Regults. Does not make much sense at all.

Agree. They should have a longer rang.

[wilycoyote]

RE the Telnesta, although seeming strange this is consistent with the only other Particle cannon named in the rules for the Zents, ie Male Power Armour - the option for the FPA is not there, something to be addressed?

Therefore I would suggest that the the Telnesta, by replacing its AA guns with the cannon represents a pod with higher close in hitting power rather than a support pod. Note balance wise if range was extended (say to similar to a Tomahawk at 36 inches) the spectres of play balance and points revision comes into play - certanly massed MPA firing cannon at a 36 " range are potentially a very attractive option to take instead of pods - but could also be a game breaker

Note as well that this also highlights the issue of not including Army Lists/Points values in the main book. All units in the book should have had been listed with their PV's - squadron, support and individual - preferably the cards should have also have been included. Thiis could at least allow play with proxies until "whenever" wave 2 arrives

Patack, finally someone else who has suffered at the hand of the high kicking Pod chorus line - - lol

[Huckebeinmk2]

I would like to know, the missilles anti missiles system use one ammo.

But when a player use it for defense, he rolls 1 dice instead of the volley number (if volley x, the player use the number of dices as ammo ?).

For exemple, a weapon system has the rule missille anti missilles olley 4, the targeted player uses 4 dices and delete one ammo from the weapon system (when attacking, the player rolls 4 dices and deplete one ammo, why not in defense ?), and, of course, the dices results will be the same, but missilles will be shot ond by one instead of the complete volley.
What do you think ?

[Everyman]

Afterburner isn't bad really. No worse then most planes in wargames are and the elders should run with the gnerls instead of pods to help with that.

Except that adding them to a Gnerl Squadron means removing one of their greatest strengths in a Zent force, that of reinforcements. Since their point costs should reflect that ability, it is a waste to not use it due to a poor rule. After all, a military pilot will tell you that in actual combat afterburners are only activated for short bursts and are not always on like in this game. They really need to FAQ and change this rule.

[Skull011]

All in all we love the game and the core mechanics. Most of the game works great! But what works doesn't need fixing.

I have been playing with a few die hard old Robotech Macross buddies and we generally think that the Phalanx and the long range Valk Missile are broken and over powered.

Even without wave 2 being released just from some ball parking point values and play testing with paper wave 2 mecha we don't see the full line of options solving the problem and have made some house rules fixes.

From a sampling of this message board and others, this is a large problem, even post the blast rules fix. I have a PhD in information science with a focus in UX design, so I know how to model and test things beyond just play testing. I also know how to watch for narrative biases and the like. That being said I and my group of two other players are not a large enough play group and I would need to work with mathematician and a larger group of play testers to go full full pro with my recommendation and analysis.

Some intention disclosure: My goal is to help create a balanced fun game, not I win or my favorite mech rules. Actually I love the design of all the mecha and both sides, so I'd like to see all the mecha do well.

Some love for RRT; the core mechanics are fantastic! I really enjoy the game design and the CP element. The close formation rules are also great, they reward formation fighting rather than punishing those that that decide to break out into broader skirmish formations. There are nice options choose from and you have options for dealing with a variety of situations. The spirit of the Macross show has been well captured.

Due to all the postings from multiple boards about the problems with the Phalanx and blast rules in general we purposely played many games with out them before adding just 2 Phalanxes and 2 Heavy Missile Regults. They completely changed the game. The Phalanxes more so than the HM Regults. We were using the first tier of upgraded missiles for the Phalanxes and they ruined the game.

Hey its a new game, most games have some overpowered (OP) pieces, the key is to id and fix real problems rather than let the rules remain broken.

First I will start by discussing fixes to the things we think are MAJOR game problems. Then I will talk about some minor tweaks. I will try to discuss these fixes without violating message boards no mech stat talk rules:

Phalanx fixes:

The problem, its to deadly in all modes.

The fix, we changed its weapon systems completely.

We changed the core Phalanx weapon system and making its range the same as the Defender's main weapon. We also dropped the weapon's template effect. We left everything else alone.

The Defender's weapon's range still gives the Phalanx good stand off capacity and while the system is now much like the basic VF system with longer range it still has its much higher ammo. Many people, myself included, have noticed the VF lethality drops post being out of missile ammo. That's fine the VF works great, but considering the Phalanx cannot move around the field or change modes the extra range and ammo seems to balance it at a point cost level to the Valks. At its normal points cost per model and shooting at Defender range with a non-blast volley of the same volley number of missiles has worked for us as being a balanced and tough, but not over powered mech.

As for the Artillery Rockets tier upgrade we cut the volley in half, and kept the special rule that's you target the ground. We let its missiles use the template and we kept ammo the same but dropped the no rolling with impact weapon special ability. We kept the one that allows you pick targets from both front and rear arches.

For the Scorpio tier we kept the weapons unstoppable i.e. no anti missile attempts. But we swapped not being able to dodge for not being able to roll with impact. That and we reduced the weapons base damage by one. This has seemed to work well. Its still nasty and worth the points but not overpowered.

But we do think the Phalanx needs a rules re-boot beyond the improved blast rules.

VF Long Range Missiles:

Also to deadly and way to much range to be fair.

We kept the new point cost and ammo but changed the volley to half of the normal unmodified VF missile volley number and limited the range of the heavy missiles to that of the Defender's main weapon system.

The Blast Rules:

Love the new blast rules.

Problem: We think that the new rules weakened the anti-missile systems a little.

Fix: Our only tweaks to the new improved blast rules has been to allow primary targets of blast missiles to anti missile as norma. For those under the template but not the main target we let them anti-missile at -1, minimum of six. This allows the better anti-missile systems to work at the normal level of normal anti-missile systems.

The Heavy Regult:

Problem: Its over pointed and weak for the only artillery option the Zentraedi have.

Fix: We knocked off 10 points for the support card for this this guy and 10 from the core card as well. We upped its weapon system damage by 1 and gave it the ability to target the ground. This helped them hit a little harder against those high MDC RDF Mecha and not be as over pointed.

Flying off the table:

This is a MAJOR problem like the Phanaix. It limits boosting risks and leaves out the choice and possibility of strafing runs by aircraft. Rather than calling models that fly off the table destroyed, we place them in reserve and force the controlling player to roll for each mecha to see when they return. We start with a 5+ on the round following the round they left the table, and then make it easier each following turn, 4+, 3+, ending with 2+. They cannot be held in reserve voluntarily, they have to make a return roll each turn. All rolls are made during the command phase. Models return to the table anywhere within 2" of the same location they left the table during the command phase. When their squad activates and they move and shoot as normal. With bad rolling its possible for mecha to never come back and its highly likely that they don't return for a turn or two penalizing the player who flew off the table by not getting a round or two of fighting out of the off table mecha. We have found this easy and more satisfying than the current rule. It allows aircraft with afterburners to do strafing runs with some speed boosting but risk not being able to return to the fight in time. Also having mecha return during the command phase can leave them vulnerable to counter fire.


While these fixes have worked well for us thus far I would love to do some mathematical modeling and sample a larger play testing group before I say with full certainty that these changes are the way to go. Still these are the major problems and fixes my little group has discovered and worked to fix.

The following are minor tweaks that might be useful:

VF MLOPs:

Considering the offensive limitations we made these guys cost 0 pts.

VF Battloid and the Defender Anti-Missile:

We created a new ability for the G-ll in battleoid and the Defender's weapon systems, we called it 'improved anti-missile'. It basically just allows these guys to anti missile at the same die roll level as if they had the anti missile missile systems found on Glaugs and Tomahawks. It fits better with both of these mecha thematically and helps out the VF battleoid mode defensively a bit. We don't see it chumping other mecha or the FV-1R , MLOPS upgrades as that anti missile upgrade works in all modes (save the MLOPS is a no go in Battleoid). In the show they use the G-11 to take out missile and usually in battaleoid mode all the time. For our group it has worked and not been over powered. It helps Battleoid mode allot defensively which we thought it needed and makes it a more attractive option in some situations. Asit stands now we only go battleoid when we are out of missiles.

For the defender it is more thematically appropriate considering it is a walking point defense system and helps the mecha a bit defensively.

The Defender:

We also created an new special weapon system ability for the Defender called 'area defense'. This allows any mecha within 2" of the Defender from the same squadron and in close formation to use the defender's improved anti-missile system at the cost of 1 CP for each anti-missile attempt.

This has made the Defender far more interesting defensively and helps our balanced Phalanxes survivability. No other UDF mecha really needs this ability, only the Phalanxes. It also forces UDF players to consider their Phalanx Defender mixes. Our rebalanced Phalanx is not as overpowered so while useful, they do not win the game out right but the costly upgraded ones are worth protecting from enemy missiles be they from arty pods or Gnerl fighters.

The Spartan:

Problem: They are a little over pointed. With the weaker missiles, shorter range and limited mobility, and hand to hand not being that spectacular, they seemed a little costly for their lower offensive power to us.

Fix: We gave them a base cost of 12 and adjusted the support cards and core cards accordingly.

VF-1S:

The finial tweak that is the one I am least confidant about is upping the VF-1S defenses all by 1. We have found it can dodge like a dream if you have command points but without them VF-1S drop like a rock. Considering the Glaug and the Female PA suits that are coming also enjoy top tier defenses for the VF-1S and only the VF-1S, it might be worth considering upping their DF by one in all modes. Again I'd need a mathematician and more play testers to say for sure.

Interestingly enough we have not had problems with Regults rushing a kicking the crap out of things. The few times it has been tried the Regults failed. It seems to me this problem is very dice swingy. It could happen especially with larger pod hoards, but with 3-4 pods to a mech in our play tests they still did not score much damage.

Fix: limit the extra mech bonus to the pilot's pilot skill / PH skill or just cap the bonus at +1. In reality surrounding a guy with spears and multiple attackers works great. Fighting two to three to one with fists you can get in each others way and you basically just dog pile and a few of you hold him down while others lay into him. I am not sure dog pilling is they right move for this game. There was some hand to hand in the show to be sure, especially when Kyron and his boys went in to seal the cloning vat but I think this mechanic needs some pondering and play testing. One of those unintended consequences I am sure.

So that's it from our group. I hope I was elusive enough with my fix suggestion to not violate the no stats posting rule.

Please feel free to steal these ideas for your local house rules is you have been having the same problems in the same areas with your wave one games!

I look forward to the re-release and I hope some of these problems, mainly the Phalanx, will be addressed in the Wave 2 edition.

Good luck Palladium with wave 2!

[McPherson]

A very comprehensive list of tweaks there Skull011.

I haven't played many games with my stuff but I would automatically lean towards your rule for flying off the table anyway, it has the appropriate risk/reward value and allows better strategic options for Fast Movers (Plus when Wave 2 hits there are going to be many more of them floating around so I'd much rather see them shooting across the battlefield instead of slowly circling around worrying about hitting the ever present invisible wall of death that is the edge of the table)

Can't help you on the Phalanx stuff, as I said haven't played that many games and I don't have a group in the UK at the moment I can reliably playtest with.

All in all good luck, hopefully some of your ideas may catch the eye of someone up high and may get added to the Advanced Rulebook they were mentioning earlier this year.

- End of Line -

[Alpha 11]

I also love it! Have you considered sending this to Palladium and seeing if you can't get some of these officially into the game?

[CaptKaruthors]

While not a major problem, we think it would be cool if the Valks can spend a command point at the end of their afterburner move to change modes.

[glitterboy2098]

if they did that i don't think anyone would use the Fighter mode though. that would basically let you get all the firepower and defenses of the battloid or guardian, with the mobility of the fighter mode. there would need to be some sort of downside, since you'd be getting the best of two modes at once.

[Forar]

Wouldn't it basically append "this unit generates one less CP" to the option? Aside from 'leader' level units, VT's generate 1 CP per turn, so if they're burning them for maneuverability (very strong, mind you), they won't have them for evading (less necessary if they're not in range to get shot, sure) or attack with.

Note: I'm *not* saying I think it would be balanced.

Simply recognizing he did provide a cost already baked into the idea; you're spending a valuable commodity to get it.

If that price should be higher, it'd be interesting to see how high it could get before it stopped being remotely feasible. 2 CP per fighter?