WP: Staff

[eliakon]

Not to mention there is already precedent for allowing this to happen:
W.P. Targeting & Spear, Archery, Knife, etc....

As mentioned earlier, multiple times NMI-chan, WP targeting has specific text in it that says it will stack with thrown and bow attacks.
So the precedent you are talking about is that they need specific text for the WPs to stack.

As for the GM allowing for cinematic rule bending......if it is cool yah neat house rule.

Your interpretation of a "rule" only. There is no other text saying WPs do NOT stack. You are assuming they don't, not proving it. Its pretty obvious they do stack seeing both blunt and staff says +X to strike/parry/throw with staves.

A character with WP Staff and WP Blunt picks up a staff.

He uses it in combat.

Look at WP Blunt. Is he using a staff? Yes. He gets +1.
Look at WP Staff. Is he using a staff? Yes. He gets +1.

+1 +1 = +2.

Very simple. Not cosmic.

The problem with this is that it then begs the question of why W.P. Targeting needs specific text saying that it stacks with certain weapons. AND of course it opens up the huge loop hole from N&SS of "Okay I take Moo Gai" followed by "Well that means I have W.P. Sword, and W.P. Large Sword, and W.P. Daisho, and W.P. Katana and........."

[Kagashi]

The problem with this is that it then begs the question of why W.P. Targeting needs specific text saying that it stacks with certain weapons.

Emphasis. Pure and simple. The kid at the theater told me to "enjoy the show" when he ripped my ticket. That does not mean I cannot enjoy my show in a different theater.

AND of course it opens up the huge loop hole from N&SS of "Okay I take Moo Gai" followed by "Well that means I have W.P. Sword, and W.P. Large Sword, and W.P. Daisho, and W.P. Katana and........."

There is no WP Daisho, Katana, or Sword in N&SS. There is Large Sword and Small Sword, which a weapon can not be both large and small simultaneously, so it will fall in one or the other other category.

[eliakon]

The problem with this is that it then begs the question of why W.P. Targeting needs specific text saying that it stacks with certain weapons.

Emphasis. Pure and simple. The kid at the theater told me to "enjoy the show" when he ripped my ticket. That does not mean I cannot enjoy my show in a different theater.

AND of course it opens up the huge loop hole from N&SS of "Okay I take Moo Gai" followed by "Well that means I have W.P. Sword, and W.P. Large Sword, and W.P. Daisho, and W.P. Katana and........."

There is no WP Daisho, Katana, or Sword in N&SS. There is Large Sword and Small Sword, which a weapon can not be both large and small simultaneously, so it will fall in one or the other other category.

W.P. Sword N&SS pg. 92 its a Hwarang-Do Kata
W.P. Scimptars is on page 110
W.P. Broadswords s on page 110
W.P. Katana is on page 113
W.P. Daisho is on page 113
W.P. Boken is on page 113
(Ohhh, can I now stack, blunt, sword, large sword, katana, daisho, and boken?)

[Alrik Vas]

Madness, I tell you! My sword bonuses will be Soooo big. Just need to get my hands on a daitanatar.

[boxee]

I would say they stack. The MA you keep referring to is junk if they do not stack, meaning other MAs give better bonuses and DO NOT require that you have a weapon in your hand.

I see it as the person went out of his way to get more training in staff weapons. Your giving up a skill slot that alone should tell you that you have more training then someone that did not go out of his way to learn more.

[eliakon]

I would say they stack. The MA you keep referring to is junk if they do not stack, meaning other MAs give better bonuses and DO NOT require that you have a weapon in your hand.

I see it as the person went out of his way to get more training in staff weapons. Your giving up a skill slot that alone should tell you that you have more training then someone that did not go out of his way to learn more.

The martial art in question is epic.....
Starting with every single W.P. and Paired W.P. and the Kata for it is pretty sweet. AND if your a dedicated you can take Harwang-Do you can stack these two martial arts!!! It doesn't need the ability to stack four or five of its W.P.s for bonuses on top of its already massive abilities.

[Kagashi]

The problem with this is that it then begs the question of why W.P. Targeting needs specific text saying that it stacks with certain weapons.

Emphasis. Pure and simple. The kid at the theater told me to "enjoy the show" when he ripped my ticket. That does not mean I cannot enjoy my show in a different theater.

AND of course it opens up the huge loop hole from N&SS of "Okay I take Moo Gai" followed by "Well that means I have W.P. Sword, and W.P. Large Sword, and W.P. Daisho, and W.P. Katana and........."

There is no WP Daisho, Katana, or Sword in N&SS. There is Large Sword and Small Sword, which a weapon can not be both large and small simultaneously, so it will fall in one or the other other category.

W.P. Sword N&SS pg. 92 its a Hwarang-Do Kata
W.P. Scimptars is on page 110
W.P. Broadswords s on page 110
W.P. Katana is on page 113
W.P. Daisho is on page 113
W.P. Boken is on page 113
(Ohhh, can I now stack, blunt, sword, large sword, katana, daisho, and boken?)

Ah, you are talking about weapon katas. Yes, they stack with the appropriate basic WP. But a katana cannot be a katana and a Boken and a scimitar simultaneously, its a katana (which is type of long sword, so those would stack). Likewise, WP Broadsword and WP Long Sword would stack.

But no. There is no such weapon as a Broad-Katana-Scimitar-Boken Sword-Staff.

So, the character in question has:
WP Scimitar
WP Broadsword
WP Katana
WP Daisho
WP Boken
WP Short Sword
WP Long Sword
WP Staff
WP Blunt

He picks up a Katana and uses it in combat.

Potential Bonus/Receive Bonus?
Scimitar / NO
Broadsword / NO
Katana / YES
Daisho / NO (if he had the Wakizashi as well, then yes)
Boken / NO
Short Sword / NO
Long Sword / YES
Staff / NO
Blunt / NO

[Alrik Vas]

I thought kata didn't stack with WP. Isn't it said explicitly in N&SS?

[drewkitty ~..~]

can the WP be used with a katana
Katanas are slashing swords
Scimitars are slashing swords
so WP Scimitar is a Maybe
(btw Sabers are also slashing swords)

Daishio.....lets you use ether or both so there is no doubt Yes

Bokken (yes two K's) are wooden practice katana so Yes or Maybe depending on if the GM really knows what they are. (example: Like in the 1st season on the Game of Thrones where Aia's sword master started her practice with wooden swords.)
------------------------------------
However, I do think you missed Eli's sub-textual point. That "No, Those WPs do not stack even though they maybe seam to be able to stack if you ignore that there is no text in them saying that they stack."

So as you were sub-textually saying the Eli's statement was ludicrous he was also making you say that is was ludicrous to assert the same for the Blunt and staff WPs to stack.

BTW Eli didn't have WP Staff in his list.
-----------------------
Weapon Kata...lets you use the type of weapon with that MAF. If the char does not already have the WP of that weapon type it confers that WP to that char while using that MAF. So, No, they do not stack (double) the WP bonuses.

[Alrik Vas]

That's what I thought. The mechanics are that kata are used with the form, while WP is used no matter what form you are in.

But hey, when have mechanics ever made sense?

[drewkitty ~..~]

That's what I thought. The mechanics are that kata are used with the form, while WP is used no matter what form you are in.

WP it does not matter what h2h you are using so long as it is h2h and not a Full MAF. As it works out the division between the two is easy If the form is not in N&S, MC, or Rifters 3 or 7 it is a h2h.

[Alrik Vas]

I stand by my edit even more now.

[eliakon]

My example would be like this
Bob picks up a blunt, boken practice daishio.
Does this mean that in both hands he has
W.P. Sword
W.P. Dasiho
W.P. Blunt
then
in Main hand
W.P. Katana
W.P. Large Sword
W.P. Bokken
in Off hand
W.P Wazizashi
W.P. Small Sword
W.P. Bokken (Questionable if you can use it with small bokken so he might only get it with the large one.....)
Plus of course any other W.P.s I can find to stack on here....
Remember he has the kata for each W.P. so he can use them with his martial art here.

[Nightmask]

I thought kata didn't stack with WP. Isn't it said explicitly in N&SS?

A kata will give you the WP in a particular weapon category (like staffs) AND allow you to combine the bonuses for that particular weapon proficiency with the martial art you took it in, the point of the kata is simply to allow you to add in the weapon proficiency bonuses with that particular martial art. If you only had the weapon proficiency then while you'd get its bonuses in combat you wouldn't get to use the martial art's bonuses with it since you haven't the training (i.e. the kata) to let you combine the two. So while you're fighting with that staff you wouldn't for example get to enjoy the initiative or dodge bonuses from your Martial Art because you didn't have the kata to use them together.

[Alrik Vas]

Oh, I.understood that perfectly when it was explained. I just think it's nonsense. It's a "balancing mechanic" that doesn't have much to do with martial arts.

[SpiritInterface]

N&SS is a bad example to use when talking about WP skills for anything other than N&SS. It gets to specific in the weapons skills, where as Rifts and Heroes is more general in their WP skills. For example WP baton or WP Jo sticks instead of WP Blunt, WP Katana or WP Dao instead of WP Sword: Large.

[eliakon]

N&SS is a bad example to use when talking about WP skills for anything other than N&SS. It gets to specific in the weapons skills, where as Rifts and Heroes is more general in their WP skills. For example WP baton or WP Jo sticks instead of WP Blunt, WP Katana or WP Dao instead of WP Sword: Large.

Except of course that books like Rifts: Japan and Rifts: China have come out full of specialized W.P.s.....
And then there are the Megaversalists who insist that all the skills from all the games are valid in every game.....

[drewkitty ~..~]

N&SS is a bad example to use when talking about WP skills for anything other than N&SS. It gets to specific in the weapons skills, where as Rifts and Heroes is more general in their WP skills. For example WP baton or WP Jo sticks instead of WP Blunt, WP Katana or WP Dao instead of WP Sword: Large.

Except of course that books like Rifts: Japan and Rifts: China have come out full of specialized W.P.s.....
And then there are the Megaversalists who insist that all the skills from all the games are valid in every game.....

There are the Weapon Specializations and Weapon Masteries in the rifters. That since they are in the rifters are somewhat cross setting.

[eliakon]

N&SS is a bad example to use when talking about WP skills for anything other than N&SS. It gets to specific in the weapons skills, where as Rifts and Heroes is more general in their WP skills. For example WP baton or WP Jo sticks instead of WP Blunt, WP Katana or WP Dao instead of WP Sword: Large.

Except of course that books like Rifts: Japan and Rifts: China have come out full of specialized W.P.s.....
And then there are the Megaversalists who insist that all the skills from all the games are valid in every game.....

There are the Weapon Specializations and Weapon Masteries in the rifters. That since they are in the rifters are somewhat cross setting.

Oh I was just sticking to things labeled Weapon Proficiency: <Name> format.....that's bad enough with out bringing W.S and W.M into the mix

Though if we want to just stay Rifts here is yet another example of a broken stack...
W.P. Archery & Targeting
W.P. Bow & Arrow
W.P. Samurai Archery
Sharp Shooter: Archery & Targeting
Sharp Shooter: Bow & Arrow
Sharp Shooter: Samurai Archery
I believe there is a W.P. for a specific bow listed, I will have to search. If so that's another W.P. and Sharp Shooter to take......

[drewkitty ~..~]

N&SS is a bad example to use when talking about WP skills for anything other than N&SS. It gets to specific in the weapons skills, where as Rifts and Heroes is more general in their WP skills. For example WP baton or WP Jo sticks instead of WP Blunt, WP Katana or WP Dao instead of WP Sword: Large.

Except of course that books like Rifts: Japan and Rifts: China have come out full of specialized W.P.s.....
And then there are the Megaversalists who insist that all the skills from all the games are valid in every game.....

There are the Weapon Specializations and Weapon Masteries in the rifters. That since they are in the rifters are somewhat cross setting.

Oh I was just sticking to things labeled Weapon Proficiency: <Name> format.....that's bad enough with out bringing W.S and W.M into the mix

Though if we want to just stay Rifts here is yet another example of a broken stack...
W.P. Archery & Targeting
W.P. Bow & Arrow
W.P. Samurai Archery
Sharp Shooter: Archery & Targeting
Sharp Shooter: Bow & Arrow
Sharp Shooter: Samurai Archery
I believe there is a W.P. for a specific bow listed, I will have to search. If so that's another W.P. and Sharp Shooter to take......

Was pointing out that the WS and WM were made because you couldn't otherwise stack WP's together...and an alternative to stacking WPs that don't canonly stack.

[eliakon]

N&SS is a bad example to use when talking about WP skills for anything other than N&SS. It gets to specific in the weapons skills, where as Rifts and Heroes is more general in their WP skills. For example WP baton or WP Jo sticks instead of WP Blunt, WP Katana or WP Dao instead of WP Sword: Large.

Except of course that books like Rifts: Japan and Rifts: China have come out full of specialized W.P.s.....
And then there are the Megaversalists who insist that all the skills from all the games are valid in every game.....

There are the Weapon Specializations and Weapon Masteries in the rifters. That since they are in the rifters are somewhat cross setting.

Oh I was just sticking to things labeled Weapon Proficiency: <Name> format.....that's bad enough with out bringing W.S and W.M into the mix

Though if we want to just stay Rifts here is yet another example of a broken stack...
W.P. Archery & Targeting
W.P. Bow & Arrow
W.P. Samurai Archery
Sharp Shooter: Archery & Targeting
Sharp Shooter: Bow & Arrow
Sharp Shooter: Samurai Archery
I believe there is a W.P. for a specific bow listed, I will have to search. If so that's another W.P. and Sharp Shooter to take......

Was pointing out that the WS and WM were made because you couldn't otherwise stack WP's together...and an alternative to stacking WPs that don't canonly stack.

Muahahahhah
No I shall simply take W.S. and W.M. for all of these as well.....
*shoots the eye out of a fly from a moving hover bike by bouncing an arrow off a wall as seen through a mirror at 1000 feet*

[Alrik Vas]

Meh, 7/10.

Next time bank it through another dimension, maybe time compression. Hit your target before you release, what are you, a slacker?

[eliakon]

Meh, 7/10.

Next time bank it through another dimension, maybe time compression. Hit your target before you release, what are you, a slacker?

Meh its only a fly, not worth the effort to actually do a trick shot.

(Although with the Rifter Archery article it could be possible to shoot two different flies in the eye......)

[Alrik Vas]

Reminds me of a guy I know who can tag asprin with a pellet gun at 200m. Dude is pretty amazing. He can also flick a cigarette into a trashcan reliably at like 30ft. Is that sharpshooter with targeting or just an amazing PP?

[eliakon]

Reminds me of a guy I know who can tag asprin with a pellet gun at 200m. Dude is pretty amazing. He can also flick a cigarette into a trashcan reliably at like 30ft. Is that sharpshooter with targeting or just an amazing PP?

Yes?

[Alrik Vas]

I think it can be derived that though full WPs shouldn't stack, they can certainly help each other. Since the game makes sense of this by disallowing stacking, but some groups think it actually does, and both sides can use text and logic for their arguments, I think synergy rather than full stacking, makes more sense.

Blunt training helps you with staffs, but it isn't a complete overlay.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. RGMG, page 32, second column, under the question: "Can you pick the same W.P. twice to double the bonuses?"

some different W.P.s may offer an accumulated bonus for the same type of weapon, like Archery and Targeting, or Sharpshooting, but these are very rare.

This passage tells us that stacking bonuses is rare (a.k.a. not standard). In the cases of Targeting and Sharpshooting (the two examples given), both state how they add to the other bonuses.

For note, I dislike quite a few of Palladium's skills ... like W.P. Staff (due to Blunt having better bonuses*), Lore: Undead (due to Demons & Monsters already covering undead), W.P. Bola ... I just shake my head. There are more, but it's been a while and those are the ones I could remember or find at a quick glance (spending only a few seconds). If I was going to include bonuses, I'd probably do something like include an extra +1 to strike and parry to Staff if Blunt is also selected. Not a huge bonus, but falls in line with Archery/Targeting.

*W.P. Blunt actually has WORSE bonuses in RGMG and HU2, but in other books such as RUE and PF2 the bonuses are superior (at least until level 14 when Staff finally catches up).

Hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Tor]

WP targeting has specific text in it that says it will stack with thrown and bow attacks.

Actually it doesn't. It lists a separate set of bonuses that apply if you have both.

It doesn't clarify whether these bonuses are the only way 2 WP skills can synergy (making it best) or if these are replacement bonuses instead of total stacking (making it inferior to blunt/staff) or whether these are on top of the baseline bonuses (making it superior to blunt/staff)

The problem with this is that it then begs the question of why W.P. Targeting needs specific text saying that it stacks with certain weapons.

The separate set of bonuses look like a synergy benefit. 1+1=3

it opens up the huge loop hole from N&SS of "Okay I take Moo Gai" followed by "Well that means I have W.P. Sword, and W.P. Large Sword, and W.P. Daisho, and W.P. Katana and........."

Actually it doesn't, because you can only use 1 kata at a time, ergo only 1 weapon kata at a time.

So while blunt/staff do stack in terms of normal WP, you must choose WP Kata Blunt or WP Kata Staff, you can't use both katas simultanously.

There is no WP Daisho, Katana, or Sword in N&SS. There is Large Sword and Small Sword, which a weapon can not be both large and small simultaneously, so it will fall in one or the other other category.

There is a WP Kata for Daisho, which is paired Katana/Wakazashi (which also have katas).

I figure we're intended to see this as being WP large and small sword except exclusive with those weapons and the benefits do not apply to other swords. Call it mega-specialization of Zanji Shijenkin Ryu.

W.P. Sword N&SS pg. 92 its a Hwarang-Do Kata
W.P. Scimptars is on page 110
W.P. Broadswords s on page 110
W.P. Katana is on page 113
W.P. Daisho is on page 113
W.P. Boken is on page 113
(Ohhh, can I now stack, blunt, sword, large sword, katana, daisho, and boken?)

You're confusing a limited kata with an actual WP skill that has its own set of bonuses.

These katas are basically limitations imposed on the normal sword skills, they still work like the skill but are limited to that weapon.

Kind of how WP Jade Fan (blunt) only applied as a kata to the blunt use of jade fans, not all blunt weapons.

if your a dedicated you can take Harwang-Do you can stack these two martial arts!

In first edition, yes.

In second edition since now ALL exclusives count as 2 (not just ninjutsu and thai, even though they still have notations to that effect for some reason) I don't know a way to start with Hwarang/Moo. All I can think is multiple OCCs.

Bonus for thieves/commandos since they still have the option of starting with some exclusives.

here is yet another example of a broken stack...
W.P. Archery & Targeting
W.P. Bow & Arrow
W.P. Samurai Archery
Sharp Shooter: Archery & Targeting
Sharp Shooter: Bow & Arrow
Sharp Shooter: Samurai Archery

I have no problem with this considering I can surpass it by using TMNT to start off as a member of a family of a thousand mice siblings who all practise archery allowing me hundreds of levels of archery at level 1.

some different W.P.s may offer an accumulated bonus for the same type of weapon, like Archery and Targeting, or Sharpshooting, but these are very rare.

This passage tells us that stacking bonuses is rare (a.k.a. not standard). In the cases of Targeting and Sharpshooting (the two examples given), both state how they add to the other bonuses.

Saying overlap of bonuses is rare isn't the same as saying you need to go out of your way to specify it

I dislike quite a few of Palladium's skills ... like W.P. Staff (due to Blunt having better bonuses*)

*W.P. Blunt actually has WORSE bonuses in RGMG and HU2, but in other books such as RUE and PF2 the bonuses are superior (at least until level 14 when Staff finally catches up).

WP Staff ends up being better in N&SS as well.

[Zer0 Kay]

Of course they Stack. Kinda explains the deadly effectiveness of staff wielding monks irl.

Has nothing to do with the monks martial arts right?

[Zer0 Kay]

I stack. Easiest fastest most efficient way to keep track. I also allow the two hand to hand combats per character. Expert Martial Artist, Etc. And they stack. Only use that in fantasy settings gives a guy with two swords and plate mail a chance to hang in a sword fight with a SAMAS.
My reasoning on stacking.
Rpa elites in Power Armor have ridiculous Bonuses. Since rpa:basic stacks with hand to hand which stacks with rpa:elite of your favorite. Then why not. Other characters are just as improved by allowing a level playing field.

Since when does basic and elite stack?

Stacking MA is also ridiculous some one with JKD and Tiger style isn't going to do a 3" tiger claw punch. The styles are to represent different styles, combining them together is munchkin.

Blunt weapon is supposed to represent weapons that are heavier on one end. Staves are not an no switching your grip to one end does not make it a blunt. No wonder why you think night spawn are op you combine their facade basic hth with their Morphus marial arts hth don't you. Granted that is a huge assumption on my part and may not be true or have anything to do with your belief of their OPness.

[Zer0 Kay]

WP targeting has specific text in it that says it will stack with thrown and bow attacks.

Actually it doesn't. It lists a separate set of bonuses that apply if you have both.

It doesn't clarify whether these bonuses are the only way 2 WP skills can synergy (making it best) or if these are replacement bonuses instead of total stacking (making it inferior to blunt/staff) or whether these are on top of the baseline bonuses (making it superior to blunt/staff)

The problem with this is that it then begs the question of why W.P. Targeting needs specific text saying that it stacks with certain weapons.

The separate set of bonuses look like a synergy benefit. 1+1=3

it opens up the huge loop hole from N&SS of "Okay I take Moo Gai" followed by "Well that means I have W.P. Sword, and W.P. Large Sword, and W.P. Daisho, and W.P. Katana and........."

Actually it doesn't, because you can only use 1 kata at a time, ergo only 1 weapon kata at a time.

So while blunt/staff do stack in terms of normal WP, you must choose WP Kata Blunt or WP Kata Staff, you can't use both katas simultanously.

There is no WP Daisho, Katana, or Sword in N&SS. There is Large Sword and Small Sword, which a weapon can not be both large and small simultaneously, so it will fall in one or the other other category.

There is a WP Kata for Daisho, which is paired Katana/Wakazashi (which also have katas).

I figure we're intended to see this as being WP large and small sword except exclusive with those weapons and the benefits do not apply to other swords. Call it mega-specialization of Zanji Shijenkin Ryu.

W.P. Sword N&SS pg. 92 its a Hwarang-Do Kata
W.P. Scimptars is on page 110
W.P. Broadswords s on page 110
W.P. Katana is on page 113
W.P. Daisho is on page 113
W.P. Boken is on page 113
(Ohhh, can I now stack, blunt, sword, large sword, katana, daisho, and boken?)

You're confusing a limited kata with an actual WP skill that has its own set of bonuses.

These katas are basically limitations imposed on the normal sword skills, they still work like the skill but are limited to that weapon.

Kind of how WP Jade Fan (blunt) only applied as a kata to the blunt use of jade fans, not all blunt weapons.

if your a dedicated you can take Harwang-Do you can stack these two martial arts!

In first edition, yes.

In second edition since now ALL exclusives count as 2 (not just ninjutsu and thai, even though they still have notations to that effect for some reason) I don't know a way to start with Hwarang/Moo. All I can think is multiple OCCs.

Bonus for thieves/commandos since they still have the option of starting with some exclusives.

here is yet another example of a broken stack...
W.P. Archery & Targeting
W.P. Bow & Arrow
W.P. Samurai Archery
Sharp Shooter: Archery & Targeting
Sharp Shooter: Bow & Arrow
Sharp Shooter: Samurai Archery

I have no problem with this considering I can surpass it by using TMNT to start off as a member of a family of a thousand mice siblings who all practise archery allowing me hundreds of levels of archery at level 1.

some different W.P.s may offer an accumulated bonus for the same type of weapon, like Archery and Targeting, or Sharpshooting, but these are very rare.

This passage tells us that stacking bonuses is rare (a.k.a. not standard). In the cases of Targeting and Sharpshooting (the two examples given), both state how they add to the other bonuses.

Saying overlap of bonuses is rare isn't the same as saying you need to go out of your way to specify it

I dislike quite a few of Palladium's skills ... like W.P. Staff (due to Blunt having better bonuses*)

*W.P. Blunt actually has WORSE bonuses in RGMG and HU2, but in other books such as RUE and PF2 the bonuses are superior (at least until level 14 when Staff finally catches up).

WP Staff ends up being better in N&SS as well.

On what page does it say that all exclusives take two? Could have sworn exclusives just can't be taken as a secondary or tertiary form and must be the primary.

So you wouldn't have a problem with WP sword, WP paired, fencing, WP kata wakazashi and if a sword is thrown WP targeting stacked on all of it?

[Tor]

I think I was wrong assuming this was a general rule. Or if there was one, I can't seem to relocate it at present.

I think this assumption was based on a Dedicated Martial Artist only being able to choose 2 forms or 1 exclusive form, combined with the recurring "any except exclusive" statements found on the Wired/Gadgeteer/Operative/Wandering Free agents, the Dreamer Gizmoteer, and the Veteran Grunt.

As the Worldly Martial Artist's "one primary" has no "except exclusive", Thieves can get Aikido, and Commando Mercs can get Tien Hsueh or Wui Wing or Wu Shu, the 'it doesn't count as two' thing seems to hold water.

So I guess it's just Ninjutsu/Thai that take 2 and are limited to Dedicated.

Any of the other exclusive arts could be selected by a Worldly, I guess.

Although it does beg the question: aside from having a lower starting age, higher weekly earnings (for some reason) and better chance of recognizing martial arts world figures, is there any benefit to starting a (not a ninja or kickboxer) exclusive martial artist as Dedicated instead of Worldly? Worldly has better SDC, education, martial arts powers, secondary skills and starting money. They seem like better choices for this stuff.

you wouldn't have a problem with WP sword, WP paired, fencing, WP kata wakazashi and if a sword is thrown WP targeting stacked on all of it?

Page 123 says that a Weapon Kata is good for one WP only.

I have gained an impression that you can only use one Special Kata at a time.

I am not sure I can find if this is blatently stated but on page 122 it mentions "there is no problem changing from one kata to another" which sounds to me like it is implying this.

Weapon Katas are a special case since they do not require an entire round, but I'm not sure that alone would override the impression of the 1-at-a-time thing.

It does also say "or of not allowing other actions". I'm not totally sure what that means. I guess you could take it to mean you can stack Kata-Shield with Kata-Blunt or something, I dunno. I always figured it was because you could both attack or defend with a WP kata whereas the other katas were pure-attack or pure-defense.

Not sure why fencing/paired gets brought up, I don't think anyone has a problem with that stacking.

As for WP Wakizashi, that doesn't actually exist. I believe when Zanji offers this, it is essentially giving you Weapon Kata Short Sword except that instead of working for all short swords, it only works with the Wakizashi.

It is true though that the generic "WP Sword" from other games could stack with the more specific "WP Large Sword" or "WP Short Sword" from N&SS.

Doesn't make me mad at all, skilled people being skilled. It's the +8 strike/parry from level 1 PP monsters that bothers me. WP-stacking helps to offset that a bit for normal-PP guys.

[eliakon]

As for WP Wakizashi, that doesn't actually exist. I believe when Zanji offers this, it is essentially giving you Weapon Kata Short Sword except that instead of working for all short swords, it only works with the Wakizashi.

The book that says that there is such a W.P. begs to differ with you on that though.
Since the book says that this W.P. exists (by giving it to some people) the W.P. exists. Now you can house rule the W.P. back out of existence if you like..... but RAW W.P. Wakizashi exists.

[Alrik Vas]

The discrepancy of bonuses is kinda meaningless though, Tor.

You can have a character with average PP (no bonuses) who takes every available aid to their bonuses to get like +4 or whatever at level 1, sure. Though nothing is stopping the PP 30 character from doing the same thing and having +12.

Sure, a character by design could be lazy and rely completely on natural talent, while the determined one builds bonus through sweat, but it still doesn't even make him as good as the prodigy. And that's okay. The game can have characters with silly numbers, they only matter when they're needed.

I don't believe blunt and staff were meant to stack, but ultimately, Palladium doesn't have a league or anything, there's no one holding as accountable for playing by RAW other than ourselves. So really, someone can stack the stick bonuses, sure. Doesn't mean you can strike a puzzle into solving itself or parry a social challenge gone wrong.

Unless your GM goes for that kind of thing.

[Tor]

Eliakon, tell me what WP Katana and WP Wakazashi do, where they are described.

There are a lot of weapon katas in N&SS which by name do not exactly correspond to the name of a weapon skill, but instead correspond to a weapon included among others under that skill.

What else would you do if not use the bonuses from that category? No bonuses, even though Weapon Katas are supposed to give a WP skill? Make up a set of bonuses?

Alrik while It's true the PP 30 guy can do the same, at least in this case it won't lead to the unskilled PP 30 guy dominating the PPless mega-skilled guys as much.

[eliakon]

Eliakon, tell me what WP Katana and WP Wakazashi do, where they are described.

They are not stated out, but since there is a martial art that provides them as skills they obviously exist as skills. Unless you want to house rule them out of the game.

There are a lot of weapon katas in N&SS which by name do not exactly correspond to the name of a weapon skill, but instead correspond to a weapon included among others under that skill.

Half right. Those Katas provide the W.P. of the same name. And thus those W.P.s exist.

What else would you do if not use the bonuses from that category? No bonuses, even though Weapon Katas are supposed to give a WP skill? Make up a set of bonuses?

The GM will have to figure out how to handle that in their game. The rules book provides the existence of the W.P. but since the full stats are not provided it is up to the GM to figure out what the effects of the canon skill are.

Alrik while It's true the PP 30 guy can do the same, at least in this case it won't lead to the unskilled PP 30 guy dominating the PPless mega-skilled guys as much.

Nope its just going to have the guys that take Moo Gai dominate everyone with their insane amounts of WPs though.
And lets face it a PP 30 guy should probably be dominating people. Considering that the get a PP of 30 in Ninjas and Superspies requires that you roll both a bonus (with an absolute minimum of 22 rolled) AND get a minimum of 6 more points from the Acrobatics and Gymnastics skills......this is not an 'easy to do thing' but "highly talented prodigy who has honed their natural talent with skill and training"

[Tor]

You keep saying these WP exist, but we know they don't, and there is some indication of a pattern to use the existing ones to guide us.

For example, when Chi Hsuan Men says "W.P. Blunt: Uses White Jade Fan" and "W.P. Pair
Weapons: Uses White Jade Fan - Paired". This is pointed out because it's a case where there isn't an obvious answer, someone might not understand it falls under blunt. But it isn't necessarily a kata with all blunt weapons, it is telling us a kata with paired fans that use WP blunt bonuses.

In the case of others:
*Assassin giving WP Dagger (obviously referring to WP Knife, even says it 'includes knives')
*Choy-Li-Fut giving Spear (Pa-Kua Lance), Short Sword (Willow Leaf Double Sword), Staff (Eighteen). They are with specific weapons only, but they use the generic skill.
*Fu-Chiao Pai giving WP Claws kata is one example I'll give isn't clearly spelled out. Luckily Rifts players know that Claws can defualt to WP Knife. Though lacking that I can see reason to possibly think it's WP Forked.
*Hwarang-Do giving WP Short Stick. Presumably falls under WP Blunt since it is not explicitly a staff.
*Isshin Ryu giving WP Bo Staff. Presumably falls under WP Staff.
*Ninjutsu's "Ninja Sword" is probably WP Small Sword. Per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjat%C5%8D it was a short sword.
*Ninjutsu's Kusari-Gama, Kyoketsu-Shoge and Manriki-Gusari I think all fell under WP Chain.
*Ninjutsu's WP Staff was limited to the Shikomi-Zue Hidden Blade Staff*
*Te's WP Bo Staff (obv. Staff) or Sai (obv. Forked) or Nunchaku (obv. Chain)
*Wui Wing Chun's WP Bo Staff (obv. Staff)
*Wu Shu's WP cudgels (obv. blunt) WP scimitars (obv. small sword) or WP Broadswords (obv. large sword) or WP Daggers (obv. knife) or WP meteor hammers (obv. blunt) or WP three-sectional staff (obv. staff) or WP darts (obv. Throw). Admittedly I'm a bit out for rope, whips, and hooks though.
**As for why you would turn sword "WP swords (paired)", I think that means that you cannot perform the kata if you have only 1 sword, so that's a downside. Since there is a WP broadswords (PAIRED) and no actual WP Sword in N&SS, it's logical to take this to mean paired Small Swords (the aforementioned scimitars).
*Zanji as mentioned before, Katana is Large Sword, Wakizashi is Small Sword, Daisho is them paired, Bokken is blunt, Bo Staff is Staff, Naginata is polearm.

If Eric Wujcik thought this was a problem we couldn't figure out then I think he would've included them as new WP skills in Mystic China.

Page 123 mentions that Kobo-Jutsu (Weapon Kata) is 'good for one WP only' and that it 'gives the character full WP with the weapon named'.

This does NOT mean that the 'full WP with the weapon named' has to be a WP skill with the same name as the weapon kata. It could simply mean that, while you can only use the kata with the named weapon, you get whatever WP skill is appropriate for that class of weapon.

[eliakon]

You keep saying these WP exist, but we know they don't, and there is some indication of a pattern to use the existing ones to guide us.

For example, when Chi Hsuan Men says "W.P. Blunt: Uses White Jade Fan" and "W.P. Pair
Weapons: Uses White Jade Fan - Paired". This is pointed out because it's a case where there isn't an obvious answer, someone might not understand it falls under blunt. But it isn't necessarily a kata with all blunt weapons, it is telling us a kata with paired fans that use WP blunt bonuses.

In the case of others:
*Assassin giving WP Dagger (obviously referring to WP Knife, even says it 'includes knives')
*Choy-Li-Fut giving Spear (Pa-Kua Lance), Short Sword (Willow Leaf Double Sword), Staff (Eighteen). They are with specific weapons only, but they use the generic skill.
*Fu-Chiao Pai giving WP Claws kata is one example I'll give isn't clearly spelled out. Luckily Rifts players know that Claws can defualt to WP Knife. Though lacking that I can see reason to possibly think it's WP Forked.
*Hwarang-Do giving WP Short Stick. Presumably falls under WP Blunt since it is not explicitly a staff.
*Isshin Ryu giving WP Bo Staff. Presumably falls under WP Staff.
*Ninjutsu's "Ninja Sword" is probably WP Small Sword. Per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjat%C5%8D it was a short sword.
*Ninjutsu's Kusari-Gama, Kyoketsu-Shoge and Manriki-Gusari I think all fell under WP Chain.
*Ninjutsu's WP Staff was limited to the Shikomi-Zue Hidden Blade Staff*
*Te's WP Bo Staff (obv. Staff) or Sai (obv. Forked) or Nunchaku (obv. Chain)
*Wui Wing Chun's WP Bo Staff (obv. Staff)
*Wu Shu's WP cudgels (obv. blunt) WP scimitars (obv. small sword) or WP Broadswords (obv. large sword) or WP Daggers (obv. knife) or WP meteor hammers (obv. blunt) or WP three-sectional staff (obv. staff) or WP darts (obv. Throw). Admittedly I'm a bit out for rope, whips, and hooks though.
**As for why you would turn sword "WP swords (paired)", I think that means that you cannot perform the kata if you have only 1 sword, so that's a downside. Since there is a WP broadswords (PAIRED) and no actual WP Sword in N&SS, it's logical to take this to mean paired Small Swords (the aforementioned scimitars).
*Zanji as mentioned before, Katana is Large Sword, Wakizashi is Small Sword, Daisho is them paired, Bokken is blunt, Bo Staff is Staff, Naginata is polearm.

If Eric Wujcik thought this was a problem we couldn't figure out then I think he would've included them as new WP skills in Mystic China.

Page 123 mentions that Kobo-Jutsu (Weapon Kata) is 'good for one WP only' and that it 'gives the character full WP with the weapon named'.

This does NOT mean that the 'full WP with the weapon named' has to be a WP skill with the same name as the weapon kata. It could simply mean that, while you can only use the kata with the named weapon, you get whatever WP skill is appropriate for that class of weapon.

Just a point....but if the book says W.P. ____ then that is what the W.P. is.....claiming that it is something else requires us to change what is written.....
Claiming that they are "obviously" something else is not using the book as it is actually written and instead choosing to change it (via a house rule) to fit your conception of how the book should be.
Since the actual book says that these W.P.s exist the presumption would be that they do in fact exist. It would take an active statement from the books themselves to refute them.
You can make a house rule to remove the W.P.s you do not like from the game....but the simple fact is that according to the Rules As Written they do indeed exist.
Since this is Rifts we can even use some of the examples from Rifts to demonstrate how this works
W.P. Targeting says that it covers 'thrown weapons'.....
But then there is W.P. Boomerang, W.P. Bola, W.P. Deadball., and W.P. Net....all of which are also thrown weapons. We can look at the descriptions of these weapons and conclude that they are not actually just misnamed W.P. Targeting skills. This clearly demonstrates that the precedent is that new skills can exist, and that not all skills mentioned in various places are fully described in the skill sections. Another

[Tor]

Saying a WP exists does not mean it must be written under that exact name though. If it refers to a weapon already under a WP skill within the book then shouldn't we use that?

Erick did this so often that I think it's clear he intended us to default here and did not intend to write up a separate "WP Ninja Sword" and so on, that'd be a very extensive list.

[Kagashi]

Saying a WP exists does not mean it must be written under that exact name though. If it refers to a weapon already under a WP skill within the book then shouldn't we use that?

Erick did this so often that I think it's clear he intended us to default here and did not intend to write up a separate "WP Ninja Sword" and so on, that'd be a very extensive list.

Tor, Katas are WP-like, but they only apply to the specific weapon and like Pilot RPA Combat skills can only be used when piloting a Robot/Power Armor, Kata-WPs can only be used when using the martial art which granted it. They do exist, they are just weapon specific and martial art specific.

[eliakon]

Saying a WP exists does not mean it must be written under that exact name though. If it refers to a weapon already under a WP skill within the book then shouldn't we use that?

Erick did this so often that I think it's clear he intended us to default here and did not intend to write up a separate "WP Ninja Sword" and so on, that'd be a very extensive list.

That is your claim. Do you have any support for the claim that things can be labeled one way but really mean another thing? Because as written yes there is a W.P. Ninja Sword, because the book claims there is. Which by the way is exactly like W.P. Blunt and W.P. Staff which is the basis of this whole thread! Staves are a specialized blunt device, and yet we have clear and incontrovertible proof that there is both a W.P. Blunt and a W.P. Staff. Given this why should we not assume that the book is correct in claiming that there are other such examples of specialty W.P.s?

[Tor]

The difference is that we can specifically point to books that contain blunt/staff WP skills, we can't do that for the things in N&SS, in spite of the book being out decades.

Sure, some day we might actually get the skill. This is actually the case for White Jade Fan. Originally in N&SS we were told to use WP Blunt for it, but the reprint of Chi Hsuan Men in Mystic China was a slightly different version (for example, no more access to chi skills, but you got access to advanced atemi to compensate) which no longer referred to using blunt. I think later in Rifts China a WP White Jade Fan did end up appearing though. Although in RiftsWB25p22-23 it was more of a full martial art (Chi Hsuan Men in parenthesis) rather than a WP skill, so maybe not...

I'm all for switching over to a new WP skill if Palladium ever publishes it in a N&SS sourcebook, but until we get that, I think we ought to use the bonuses from the appropriate category as I think it is cleak Wujcik intended us to, as opposed to giving no bonuses at all.

Katas are WP-like, but they only apply to the specific weapon and like Pilot RPA Combat skills can only be used when piloting a Robot/Power Armor, Kata-WPs can only be used when using the martial art which granted it. They do exist, they are just weapon specific and martial art specific.

I'm aware of how katas work Kagashi, the discussion we're having is about what to do if the name of a kata under a specific art doesn't conform perfectly to the name of a WP in N&SS, or sometimes in Palladium at all.

"WP Dagger" and "WP Ninja Sword" being examples. I believe we're expected to choose what is appropriate based on the category (in this case WP Knife and WP Small Sword), although not get a kata for the entire category, just that WP using the category's bonuses.

Opposition thinks contrarily (far as I understand) that you don't get any WP bonuses since the name doesn't perfectly match a skill name.

[Swift-13]

I can at least say that my query has started a rather healthy discussion!

[eliakon]

The difference is that we can specifically point to books that contain blunt/staff WP skills, we can't do that for the things in N&SS, in spite of the book being out decades.

Sure, some day we might actually get the skill. This is actually the case for White Jade Fan. Originally in N&SS we were told to use WP Blunt for it, but the reprint of Chi Hsuan Men in Mystic China was a slightly different version (for example, no more access to chi skills, but you got access to advanced atemi to compensate) which no longer referred to using blunt. I think later in Rifts China a WP White Jade Fan did end up appearing though. Although in RiftsWB25p22-23 it was more of a full martial art (Chi Hsuan Men in parenthesis) rather than a WP skill, so maybe not...

I'm all for switching over to a new WP skill if Palladium ever publishes it in a N&SS sourcebook, but until we get that, I think we ought to use the bonuses from the appropriate category as I think it is cleak Wujcik intended us to, as opposed to giving no bonuses at all.

I would say that simply not providing the full details on a skill does not mean that the skill doesn't exist. Simply that it has not been properly stated out.
Personally if I was going to make a house rule I would use the stats of the nearest W.P. (since in most cases the progression of most W.P.s is pretty similar) thus I would use the W.P. Swords bonus for the various specialized swords etc....

Katas are WP-like, but they only apply to the specific weapon and like Pilot RPA Combat skills can only be used when piloting a Robot/Power Armor, Kata-WPs can only be used when using the martial art which granted it. They do exist, they are just weapon specific and martial art specific.

I'm aware of how katas work Kagashi, the discussion we're having is about what to do if the name of a kata under a specific art doesn't conform perfectly to the name of a WP in N&SS, or sometimes in Palladium at all.

"WP Dagger" and "WP Ninja Sword" being examples. I believe we're expected to choose what is appropriate based on the category (in this case WP Knife and WP Small Sword), although not get a kata for the entire category, just that WP using the category's bonuses.

Opposition thinks contrarily (far as I understand) that you don't get any WP bonuses since the name doesn't perfectly match a skill name.

Nope, I think that you would get some sort of bonus. Which is in fact the reason that I think that W.P.s shouldn't stack because there are so many possible overlaps that its possible to get the bonuses from 5+ W.P.s with one weapon

[Kagashi]

The difference is that we can specifically point to books that contain blunt/staff WP skills, we can't do that for the things in N&SS, in spite of the book being out decades.

Sure, some day we might actually get the skill. This is actually the case for White Jade Fan. Originally in N&SS we were told to use WP Blunt for it, but the reprint of Chi Hsuan Men in Mystic China was a slightly different version (for example, no more access to chi skills, but you got access to advanced atemi to compensate) which no longer referred to using blunt. I think later in Rifts China a WP White Jade Fan did end up appearing though. Although in RiftsWB25p22-23 it was more of a full martial art (Chi Hsuan Men in parenthesis) rather than a WP skill, so maybe not...

I'm all for switching over to a new WP skill if Palladium ever publishes it in a N&SS sourcebook, but until we get that, I think we ought to use the bonuses from the appropriate category as I think it is cleak Wujcik intended us to, as opposed to giving no bonuses at all.

I would say that simply not providing the full details on a skill does not mean that the skill doesn't exist. Simply that it has not been properly stated out.
Personally if I was going to make a house rule I would use the stats of the nearest W.P. (since in most cases the progression of most W.P.s is pretty similar) thus I would use the W.P. Swords bonus for the various specialized swords etc....

Katas are WP-like, but they only apply to the specific weapon and like Pilot RPA Combat skills can only be used when piloting a Robot/Power Armor, Kata-WPs can only be used when using the martial art which granted it. They do exist, they are just weapon specific and martial art specific.

I'm aware of how katas work Kagashi, the discussion we're having is about what to do if the name of a kata under a specific art doesn't conform perfectly to the name of a WP in N&SS, or sometimes in Palladium at all.

"WP Dagger" and "WP Ninja Sword" being examples. I believe we're expected to choose what is appropriate based on the category (in this case WP Knife and WP Small Sword), although not get a kata for the entire category, just that WP using the category's bonuses.

Opposition thinks contrarily (far as I understand) that you don't get any WP bonuses since the name doesn't perfectly match a skill name.

Nope, I think that you would get some sort of bonus. Which is in fact the reason that I think that W.P.s shouldn't stack because there are so many possible overlaps that its possible to get the bonuses from 5+ W.P.s with one weapon

What are some overlaps you think exist?

[say652]

I support stacking.
Multiple wps indicate lots of training,why shouldn using similar weapons apply?
Because some flawed system said so. Pfft.

Multiple style martial artists irl just flow one move to whatever move fits regardless of stance or position.

[eliakon]

What are some overlaps you think exist?

Well some of the demonstration examples include...

W.P. Bokken
W.P. Large Sword
W.P. Small Sword
W.P. Blunt (bokken are blunt swords....)
W.P. Daisho
W.P. Katana (Bokken are wooden katanas)

Or we could go with
W.P. Blunt
W.P. Staff
W.P. Bo-Staff

or
W.P. Blunt
W.P. Meteor Hammer (a specific hammer)

Or maybe
W.P. Throwing
W.P. Hand Grenades
(for the goodness of combining an ancient weapon and a modern weapon)

Or for more cheese
W.P. Shield
W.P. Blunt (since shields are technically used as a blunt weapon)

[Kagashi]

Or we could go with
W.P. Blunt
W.P. Staff
W.P. Bo-Staff

or
W.P. Blunt
W.P. Meteor Hammer (a specific hammer)

Or maybe
W.P. Throwing
W.P. Hand Grenades
(for the goodness of combining an ancient weapon and a modern weapon)

Or for more cheese
W.P. Shield
W.P. Blunt (since shields are technically used as a blunt weapon)

These, yes, I agree, would stack, assuming the correct martial art form was being used for that melee round.

One note, WP Shield does not exist in N&SS (that I can find...unless its a Kata-WP I am just overlooking) so we would be mixing the older "1st edition" game (N&SS) and the newer "2d/Ultimate edition" games to make this happen in a Megaversal point of view. That creates problems like, WP Short Sword, WP Long Sword, and WP Sword all exist in the Megaverse...characters from N&SS should only have access to skills from their world which their OCC was designed to follow as WPs Short and Long Sword are obviously just break downs of the more generic WP Sword from other games.

W.P. Bokken
W.P. Large Sword
W.P. Small Sword
W.P. Blunt (bokken are blunt swords....)
W.P. Daisho
W.P. Katana (Bokken are wooden katanas)

This one I have questions and reservations about. I would not classify a Bokken as sword because...it isnt. No matter how hard you try, you are never going to slice a paper in half, because it has no blade, its a blunt instrument. Furthermore, nothing can be both Large and Small simultaneously, so it would be either Large or Small Sword (but really none because its not a sword...that includes Katana).

I guess what Im saying is, if a character had this particular skill set, it would depend on what weapon he/she was using. If he picked up a bokken, I would stack Bokken and Blunt only from the above skills.

A Katana would warrant Large Sword and Katana only.

Wielding the paired Diasho I guess you use WP Large Sword for one hand, and Small Sword for the other, and they both stack with WP Daisho, with Katana stacking with the Large Sword hand only.

Lastly, I am assuming these Kata-WPs all are from the same martial art form. If he earned them from two different forms, he would be restricted to Kata-WPs when using that form only. Something like Zanjo Shinjinken-ryu would allow for this combo somewhat, other than the fact you cannot pick both Katana and Diasho within the same skill set. You would have to pick the off skill from another form and would not be able to use it unless using that form, so Katana and Diasho would never be able to be used simultaneously in that scenario. At least, thats how I am reading.

Seems at level one you get Bokken, Bo Saff, Spear, and Naginata. Then at level 3 you have the option of taking Diasho. If you do that, you cannot select Katana or Wakizashi at level 4. If you did not take Diasho at level 3, at level 4 you can pick Katana OR Wakizashi. So really, the above skill list, within the same martial art form, cannot happen anyway.

[say652]

It is the soul that cuts, not the blade.
A weak soul and a sharp blade meerly slice.
A strong soul will always cut.

[drewkitty ~..~]

W.P. Bokken
W.P. Large Sword
W.P. Small Sword
W.P. Blunt (bokken are blunt swords....)
W.P. Daisho
W.P. Katana (Bokken are wooden katanas)

This one I have questions and reservations about. I would not classify a Bokken as sword because...it isn't. No matter how hard you try, you are never going to slice a paper in half, because it has no blade, its a blunt instrument. Furthermore, nothing can be both Large and Small simultaneously, so it would be either Large or Small Sword (but really none because its not a sword...that includes Katana).

...snip

Bokken are katana practice swords.
Practice swords are what students are first give so they do not hurt themselves too badly while acquiring the basic skills of sword craft.

Large and small swords....that is what a Daishio is. Even though the proper terms used describe a Daishio are "the long and the short".

The example in recent media is within the series Game of Thrones in the 1st season when Aya was 1st being taught by the water dancer both were using wooden practice swords.
---
Besides this has turned into a topic about showing how munchkin things can get if you just stack on every and all WPs that even slightly overlap.