New scale for rrt?

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Tue May 19, 2015 9:46 pm

Someone on FB started some rumors that the next two eras will not be in 6mm, possibly. I hope not. I would rather keep it all in the same scale. There's other rumors as well, all from some inside source. Allegedly

https://www.facebook.com/RRPGT/photos/a ... _tracking={%22tn%22%3A%22R9%22}

It'd be great if someone from PB could clear this up with an official statement.

Colonel Wolfe · Tue May 19, 2015 10:11 pm

some news that is allegedly from the mouth of the makers...
https://www.facebook.com/RRPGT/photos/a ... =1&theater

Spoiler:

Chronicler · Unread post by **Chronicler** » Tue May 19, 2015 10:55 pm

Kryptt wrote:Someone on FB started some rumors that the next two eras will not be in 6mm, possibly. I hope not. I would rather keep it all in the same scale. There's other rumors as well, all from some inside source. Allegedly

https://www.facebook.com/RRPGT/photos/a ... _tracking={%22tn%22%3A%22R9%22}

It'd be great if someone from PB could clear this up with an official statement.

If true:

A) keep 6mm for most mecha combat, maybe have 15mm for skirmish level (mostly for New Gen, Masters would work for PA)

B) Don't do 3d printing for mass market, use for prototyping, but not mass product.

C) Don't do separate rules (We have already been told about the Advance rules coming out soonish).

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Tue May 19, 2015 11:39 pm

Related threads merged

Colonel Wolfe · Wed May 20, 2015 12:14 am

I think they should do 3d printing for Al la catre designs....

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Wed May 20, 2015 12:37 am

A new scale for the later eras makes a degree of sense, given the disparity in sizes between the mecha of the eras and the greater involvement of infantry in the later eras. At the same time I also would love to be able to play all eras on the same table.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Wed May 20, 2015 12:56 am

Yes, it would make sense. Which is why a lot of people brought that up back during the campaign, but we were firmly told that all 3 series were to be in the same scale, for compatibility reasons.

Which isn't to say that after 2 years of thinking on the matter that minds can't have changed.

But it'd probably be very helpful to hear a substantial update on the matter if true.

As noted above, for some the consistency of scale is a big draw.

And hey, considering how small some of these things are, it's possible a single sprue could contain 2 different scales at once. 6mm Cyclones would be a teeny tiny section of any Macross era spruces. You could fit a pile of them in a very small space.

And probably wouldn't need more than 8 pieces per figure. >.>

Chronicler · Unread post by **Chronicler** » Wed May 20, 2015 8:29 am

Forar wrote:Yes, it would make sense. Which is why a lot of people brought that up back during the campaign, but we were firmly told that all 3 series were to be in the same scale, for compatibility reasons.

Which isn't to say that after 2 years of thinking on the matter that minds can't have changed.

But it'd probably be very helpful to hear a substantial update on the matter if true.

As noted above, for some the consistency of scale is a big draw.

And hey, considering how small some of these things are, it's possible a single sprue could contain 2 different scales at once. 6mm Cyclones would be a teeny tiny section of any Macross era spruces. You could fit a pile of them in a very small space.

And probably wouldn't need more than 8 pieces per figure. >.>

Yeah I can see them doing 6mm and 15mm squad packs together. 15mm still not that big compared to other games in the market, plus there are companies that do historic 15mm in plastic that still look good though metal would be nice (GZG fan).

wilycoyote · Unread post by **wilycoyote** » Wed May 20, 2015 9:44 am

Mixed scales sprues sounds okay but if you play in the smaller scale assembling a force, unless you got multiple models per sprue would be costly.

Going to a larger scale (probably 1/100 15mm) makes sense by the time you get to the Invids but at that point (4/5 years away) whole game would probably need an overhaul. Change of scale for figures also means a new collection of terrain and buildings which is more costly. Numbers of models per box will drop while price per figure will go up, again more costs. Going to be in effect a completely new game you will need to market and sell

The biggest concern is that Wave 2 of the original game is not complete yet, we are constantly being told that key resource peolple is in short supply. So why are PB even thinking about this at the moment. Devote yourselves to delivering RRT as it is now, make it as successful as you can to get back product momentum - that you have clearly lost over the last year -and ride that positive into your new ideas.

Of course, if this is more specualtion then it is imperative that you snuff it out now - but if you arre just testing the water do not be surprised if it gets a little hot here and elsewhere.

Jerell · Unread post by **Jerell** » Wed May 20, 2015 12:41 pm

Jefffar wrote:A new scale for the later eras makes a degree of sense, given the disparity in sizes between the mecha of the eras and the greater involvement of infantry in the later eras. At the same time I also would love to be able to play all eras on the same table.

This is exactly the way I feel. I wonder if it would make sense to release the models in different scales on the same spure? I would love to have VHTs to paint about this size of the VF-1. I'd also like to have VHTs to use with my VF-1s... I could see it either way.

wilycoyote · Unread post by **wilycoyote** » Wed May 20, 2015 4:14 pm

It looks good on paper but the practical side of mixed scale sprues would seem stacked against it. For instance the current sprues are packed so finding space for other scales?

Of course another problem is that even at 15mm (1/100th) a Cyclone is bigger but still only around 20mm and a Invid Trooper around 40-45mm - about the size ofthe current Destroid.

I wonder is a larger skirmish scale is wanted then going for 28mm (1/56th) is the way to go? This opens up a lot of other ranges for conversions, terrain etc. If detailed small unit skirmishes are the goal then perhaps this is the way.

Problem is that the current UEDF would be 6-7 inches tall and as for Pods and Glaugs. Posiible market for premium rpg models ? Did anyone catch that large scale Mech Attack game at Adepticon (I only saw the pics)?

Jerell · Unread post by **Jerell** » Wed May 20, 2015 5:32 pm

Well, I'm assuming the bases will be the same size, and I did want them to be the same scale. But after thinking about it, I really enjoy the painting as much or more than the gaming. Maybe I would be okay with a different scale... It's a hard question to decide on for me.

Sqir · Unread post by **Sqir** » Sun May 24, 2015 2:09 am

I really hope this is just a rumor as I would absolutely hate it if they switched scales for different era's.

FoxFang · Unread post by **FoxFang** » Mon May 25, 2015 12:17 am

For those who say that changing scales is a terrible idea for future games, have you seen the size of a cyclone at 6mm scale? It's about 7mm. Okay, the purists are happy, but what about the modelers? The painters? You're talking something the size of old Epic 40K space marines. It will be difficult to tell the various versions of cyclones apart at that scale without optics, and there will be no painting to speak of. Area that small will not allow for any customization or dynamic posing. Slavish adherance to scale will lock the game into a rut. And as vocal as some are, they do not make up enough of a percentage of the user base to handicap the appeal of the game over. Some mixed scale miniatures (15-18mm) will require some hand waving to get all to play on the same field. But they will at least look correct to an outsider with no idea about Robotech to be figures that should be playing together. Vs. true 6mm figures, which if compared, an outsider would wonder why some were so much smaller compared to the others. My vote is for mixed scales. You can acheive parity via stats and ranges working out the same. Let those who desperately want to to keep scale print figures on their own. Given the tiny nature of the models in question, they would not be very expensive, even on shapeways.

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Mon May 25, 2015 1:07 am

FoxFang wrote:For those who say that changing scales is a terrible idea for future games, have you seen the size of a cyclone at 6mm scale?
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Slavish adherance to scale will lock the game into a rut. And as vocal as some are, they do not make up enough of a percentage of the user base to handicap the appeal of the game over.
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Some mixed scale miniatures (15-18mm) will require some hand waving to get all to play on the same field.
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Let those who desperately want to to keep scale print figures on their own. Given the tiny nature of the models in question, they would not be very expensive, even on shapeways.

1) yes it's been discussed at length. I even have one cyclone in 6mm and one in 15mm. They look good at 6mm when standing next to a Valkyrie.

2) this is more opinion than fact. How do you know what the users base is. I'm guessing it's stuff you read online or your buddies at your local shop. You have no facts to back this up.

3) I personally hope they stick to 6mm while giving the option for something larger for those that want it.

4) they were on shapeways till HG shut that down. You don't know what the end cost will be. Again this is opinion not fact.

McPherson · Unread post by **McPherson** » Mon May 25, 2015 7:55 am

I have been trying to keep quiet about this issue (hoping its nothing but more shouting at shadows but given the lack of solid info who can blame people for worrying?)

Regarding FoxFang's comment on the scale, yes 6mm cyclones would be around the same size as Epic Space Marines, and there is nothing wrong with that. Epic was a popular game and I never heard or had any complaints with painting bases upon bases of Space Marines and Orks at that scale, and there are many gamers who would welcome another good 6mm rule set.

And that's just referring to old Epic players and the like, you also have large communities of historical wargamers that work in a wide range of scales (going all the way down to 2mm) 6mm is a good scale and could work fine, though yes your comments on the lack of customization and pose variety are valid that is down to the manufacturer and how they design the models (and the rules to go with them).

The biggest problem with changing the scale is it renders what already exists as useless, many people (myself included) backed RRT because it was strongly hinted that PB were going to do all three generations in the same scale so we could at last field some of the hypotheticals we'd roleplayed using palladiums Robotech RPG or imagined. A squadron of Valkyries fighting against the Invid??? Zentradi fighting against the Robotech Masters?? Perhaps even doing some of the battles mentioned in the Robotech expanded lore (Like the Invid / Zentradi battles before Zor sent the battlefortress to Earth)

These are all great ideas that a lot of fans would like to play about with, which if the scale is changed between generations become unlikely at best. New Scales means new rules which means more incompatibilities between generations, add into the mix that different scales means people building up terrain boards for RRT:Macross will have to build to a completely different scale for RRT:Southern Cross and RRT:New Gen.

While no solution is ideal (I'm sure there are just as many who dont relish the thought of painting 6mm Cyclone regiments as those who want to pick and mix between generations) I'm hoping Palladium sticks with the current scale for all three generations, after which they can easily switch scales for other projects, a 25/28mm skirmish scale game in New Generation? Imagine SM Bike sized cyclones being supported by Riptide/Knight sized Alphas and Betas using all your spare ruined city 40k terrain?

I shall wait until the week of the first and see what we get told and then decide how much more i'm willing to continue supporting this project. I'm not 100% happy at the moment with how things have been handled but I'm willing to keep a lets wait and see policy.

- End of Line -

**Edited to add : I am not a scale purist in the slightest, if it were me dealing with the problem of having a cyclone and a veritech fit on the same board wihtout making one a horrid model i'd allow a little wiggle room on the scales, perhaps even boost cyclones up to 10mm tall. If other companies can have you believe that 10 space marines fit in a Rhino or 20+ Orks fit in a battlewagon and can get away with it Palladium can easily fudge the numbers slightly (assuming HG let them) to make the best models possible**

wilycoyote · Unread post by **wilycoyote** » Mon May 25, 2015 9:24 am

Good post as it outlines PB's dilemma if they want to change scale.

As for me the existing scale is fine, I still play GW eopic and have several 6mm historical armies from ACW through to modern and at the moment am working on 3mm Civil War minis. Okay you might not be able to paint every button (though some can if you look at the web) but the ability to put down relatively large numbers of models and still have table left for tactical moves outweighs this.

As mentioned above I do see that PB could potentially move to a much larger scale for a more detailed skirmish game or even just as pieces for their rpg side. Design in a lot of cases is done (use a pantograph or similar to magnify the exisisting sprues by three?) and a little refinement, cutting out two part legs etc could produce reasonable models which being larger could be more easily assembled/painted. Of course costs are up but a boxed set of a single Valk in three modes, or three pods could be a way to go - I would even in a skirmish consider 2 valks just in guardian/battloid mode, as it is more likely to be ground based.

15mm also has the advantage of being around 1:100 or so , giving the possiblity of mix matchiing with other model kits out there.

Certainly do not want to see this taking awy from wave 2, but as a possible new project it could have the draw to get people reengaged wit Robotech

mrwrightkkpsi · Mon May 25, 2015 12:44 pm

Personally, I have always felt the scale was correct if this were Macross-only and incorrect if it were going to be multi-generational (which, if I remember correctly, is what was being advertised from the get-go). It is a hard choice to make because you either get some really big (and likely expensive) Macross figures or some nearly un-usable Invid figures (not to mention that everything from Southern Cross is only 1 inch tall). Without any insider knowledge on the subject, I feel like you probably had mini-gamer experts fighting for a scale based on incomplete information or a different idea about how things were going to be effected by scale (smaller things, like Hover Tanks, are not typically more powerful than larger things, like Battle Pods, and you wouldn't see them battling each other in similar numbers in most universes- or perhaps they were never told that a Hover Tank exists or what it's size is compared to other mecha- for just a few examples). At this point, I would assume taking an 'it-is-what-it-is' approach to fixing things is far more practical than trying to start over. Do I think it should start over? As a gamer and a fan boy, yes. As a businessman, I understand the limitations. Let's bright side this for a moment- maybe we can get more for our money in future generations with the small scale? Or perhaps you would get 4 Hover Tanks to scale and one big one for 'modelers only' or two lareger ones for 'Southern Cross scale battles." Push on with Wave 2. Make it the priority so you can save as much face as possible 2 years after your kickstarter blew away all expectations. But address the scale for future projects- actually think out of the box just a little bit and make sure all of the decision makers know what is going on not just in the moment but in the big picture. This has great potential if put in the right hands. It is PB's time to prove that they can do this or let someone else have a crack at it.

wilycoyote · Unread post by **wilycoyote** » Mon May 25, 2015 2:49 pm

Not sure mini gamers forced the issue for the "macross" period, as any larger scale would have made large battles impractical. Even at 10mm a Zen pod would be near enough eight inches tall a Valk nearly 5, at 15mm they would be half as big again. Did anyone mention the Monster?

The real problem is that the source material is not consistent, being effectively three separate series shoehorned into one saga by HG.

The real sticking point for me is the Cyclones, I mean it is a bike yes? So it must be capable of being ridden so whatever way you cut it it will be tiny compared to anything in the original series. Hence the argument about potentially creating a new "game" at the very least for series three.

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Mon May 25, 2015 2:53 pm

At 6mm ghq can produce the mecha for the other two eras. I like others here would like to see another robotech game eventually come out in 28mm. Until wave two is out pb should concentrate on making that a priority above anything else. As for saving face I think that boat sailed a long time ago.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Mon May 25, 2015 5:12 pm

wilycoyote wrote:Even at 10mm a Zen pod would be near enough eight inches tall a Valk nearly 5, at 15mm they would be half as big again.

I think you have a math error here.

At 6mm scale a Battlepod is around 3 inches tall. At 10mm scale (just over 1.5x), it'd be more like 4.5 inches tall, not 8.

At 15mm scale they'd be in the 7.5-8" range.

Unless I've managed to screw some napkin math up of my own, I figured it was worth pointing out.

Now the overall point that such large figures becomes less workable at that scale is worth noting. Sure they could cut the figure counts down for a more 'skirmish' sized game, but unless one was playing on a basement floor, ranges would all basically be "as table edge to table edge" and things like the fighter would be all but useless. Trying to model (even vaguely) such things does lend itself to a smaller scale size, and even that (as has been often debated) can stretch suspension of disbelief.

But yes, the other two series having figures that, for the most part, are vastly smaller is indeed a consideration, and one that was brought up several times during the campaign.

Unfortunately this runs afoul of mutually exclusive desires on the part of the fanbase. Some people are adamant that the scales must remain the same, whereas others are not particularly enthusiastic about trying to paint detail on something ~1-3cm tall.

A middle ground *might* be found by simply including both scales on the same sprue, but even then you try to cater to both players and end up with the '6mm only' crowd paying for the much larger figure(s) and only using the tiny bits off to the side. Doing two entirely separate SKU's probably isn't a good idea; stores have trouble fitting products on shelves as it is, let alone doubling the product line. I suppose there could be some form of secondary market where people trade or sell off the parts they don't want, but that has other issues with finding people and adding extra shipping into the mix. I know 'bits' sellers are common in GW lines, but that's a level of infrastructure we're not exactly lined up with just yet.

Of course, at this rate it may well be that 3D printing evolves enough to be a more viable option by the time wave 2 completes and delivers sometime around 2017 (2018 ROW). :-P

Jerell · Unread post by **Jerell** » Mon May 25, 2015 10:53 pm

FoxFang wrote: Okay, the purists are happy, but what about the modelers? The painters?

I have to admit, I'm leaning toward the painter side at the moment.

mrwrightkkpsi · Mon May 25, 2015 11:51 pm

A quick rundown to save time for others- here are the rough height of key mecha as stated in the RPG (for battloid if transformable)-

Invid Scout- 9 ft
Almost everything from Southern Cross- roughly 20 ft (Logan is shorter)
Ajax and Alpha- 30 ft (rounding up- 28 and change is true height)
VF-1- 41 ft
Battle Pod- 57 ft
Officers battle pod- 60 ft.

So, rounding off for easy math, you are dealing with things between 10 and 60 feet tall that need to interact with each other. This writes off cyclones and SC infantry to be dealt with in a different manner and makes the Monster a big play-set type expensive figure for collectors, completists, or what have you. So this sets up the first debate: what is worse between going as big as six inches on a Glaug or smaller than 1 inch for an Invid scout? The second debate becomes how to most closely fit industry standards so pre-made terrain, buildings, etc. can be used. I will admit freely that these are not quick or easy questions to answer but I do feel they are where the conversations should have started. It will lead down many other roads- how many Glaugs would someone want to buy? How much could you sell a single Glaug for? Well, a painted and ready to play x-wing is $12.95 in most shops so start there for reference...

I have enjoyed the time I have spent with this game so far (mostly building, not much playing) but I am having a hard time stomaching the end result compared to the potential. I really want to see Wave 2. I've paid for it and been expecting it for 2 years so even if they just become collectables on a shelf or trade-show fodder, I want them. What to do with the rest of the game is up to the people who own the license. You will never please everyone interested with this type of product. I hope someone is trying to do well by the franchise- after all, you have collected all the money up front.

Morgan Vening · Tue May 26, 2015 12:20 am

Jerell wrote:
FoxFang wrote: Okay, the purists are happy, but what about the modelers? The painters?

I have to admit, I'm leaning toward the painter side at the moment.

While I don't disagree with the opinion, and as someone who never really cared that much about it, scale uniformity was never big on my list.

However, there were several people who backed, or backed more, maybe not solely, but definitely predominantly on this, during the campaign. It was debated quite heavily, and every pro and con I've seen so far WAS discussed at length. And the assurance was, that it'd be 1/285 scale across all generations.

To tell those backers "Nope, sorry, even though we were told about the issues with comparative sizes, and made the decision anyway, we're gonna go in a different direction.", seems a bit harsh. Heck, it's one of the few promises PB haven't broken or unilaterally modified yet with regards the project.

Marcus · Unread post by **Marcus** » Tue May 26, 2015 1:28 pm

Morgan Vening wrote:...Heck, it's one of the few promises PB haven't broken or unilaterally modified yet with regards the project.

'Bout time then? :angel:

tdumontelle · Unread post by **tdumontelle** » Tue May 26, 2015 8:00 pm

I think SC and Next Gen can play and paint at 6mm. May have to do squads of Cyclones, maybe even two Invid on a stand. If the Vf-1 is 41 feet as stated above, then a scout would stand at about the knee if not mounted on a flying stand. While a man may be around 6 ft, they may be like 9-10 feet with the Cyclone armour, again reaching the knee. Some dynamic poses could make a stand of 2 or 3 Cyclones pretty cool.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Tue May 26, 2015 11:25 pm

I think the cyclone armour adds about a foot. 7'ish feet, definitely not 9 or 10.

Sure some could be jumping, but we're still talking "sabers" (as an example) around 1mm long.

And frankly with a fan base that seems to mostly be in its 30's and 40's, it'll take some magnifying glasses and steady hands for some of us to pull that off.

Jerell · Unread post by **Jerell** » Wed May 27, 2015 8:47 am

Morgan Vening wrote:However, there were several people who backed, or backed more, maybe not solely, but definitely predominantly on this, during the campaign. It was debated quite heavily, and every pro and con I've seen so far WAS discussed at length. And the assurance was, that it'd be 1/285 scale across all generations.

I very well may have missed this earlier, was it decided somewhere already?

Morgan Vening · Wed May 27, 2015 10:26 am

Jerell wrote:
Morgan Vening wrote:However, there were several people who backed, or backed more, maybe not solely, but definitely predominantly on this, during the campaign. It was debated quite heavily, and every pro and con I've seen so far WAS discussed at length. And the assurance was, that it'd be 1/285 scale across all generations.

I very well may have missed this earlier, was it decided somewhere already?

Not sure if you mean was the change decided*, or if the hardfast on remaining 1/285**.

* No, it's still rumor at best at the moment. Noone official has even speculated it publicly to my knowledge. It's an allegation that it was mentioned privately at the Open House, or in conversation with someone "in the know", often third hand.

** There were several assurances DURING the campaign that it would stay a consistent scale, and I've seen nothing that'd retract it either.

So, we don't know as yet if they're changing it, or even if they're thinking of changing it. I do know that for some backers, a unilateral change is gonna be taken badly (unless those backers are already disgruntled). Given those backers tended to be the ones more interested in detail over part-count, I wouldn't immediately make that assumption though.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Wed May 27, 2015 12:29 pm

Also even if addressed 'officially', a generous time line with them completing wave 2 this year would still leave 1-2+ years until this was even a serious issue. Until they're committed to pushing into production, it remains mostly academic, and series 1 could easily eat up the rest of this year and a good portion of next year.

If we go by the "omg big news at Gencon!" style of releases that PB at least seems to want to adopt, going by their 'hype! buzz!' stance last year, I'd guess that the next series would be a target for Gencon 2016 or 2017'ish, at least for prototypes, and with retail release by the holiday sales rush, as was the case with Wave One.

This is purely speculation based on what we've seen them do, but it's very similar to how a lot of miniature lines seem to work.

Actually following through with it, however, is a bit more challenging.

So it's totally something to discuss, and to address, but a lot can change in a year or two, so I wouldn't hold anything said now as being set in stone any more than their assurances about being strictly single scale were back in 2013.

Maxgravity · Unread post by **Maxgravity** » Wed May 27, 2015 2:56 pm

Having seen the size discrepancy between the 6mm Invid Scouts and a Destroid in person, I can say that it's really, really jarring. The ability to paint intricate detail on the 6mm Invid is also extremely limited. You will need a microscope to see decals on a 6mm Cyclone.

I think that having 6 and 15 mm on the same sprue is probably the best compromise as both sizes use the same base so have identical game play.

-MaxGravity

Chronicler · Unread post by **Chronicler** » Wed May 27, 2015 4:31 pm

Maxgravity wrote:Having seen the size discrepancy between the 6mm Invid Scouts and a Destroid in person, I can say that it's really, really jarring. The ability to paint intricate detail on the 6mm Invid is also extremely limited. You will need a microscope to see decals on a 6mm Cyclone.

I think that having 6 and 15 mm on the same sprue is probably the best compromise as both sizes use the same base so have identical game play.

-MaxGravity

Who said you need to decal 6mm troops? If you look at what other people did for troops in 6mm they only use a few colors and that's it. 6mm was meant for armor combat (though recently people started to do skirmish too).

Maxgravity · Unread post by **Maxgravity** » Wed May 27, 2015 7:10 pm

Chronicler wrote:Who said you need to decal 6mm troops? If you look at what other people did for troops in 6mm they only use a few colors and that's it. 6mm was meant for armor combat (though recently people started to do skirmish too).

Where did I say you had to? Some gamers enjoy having their minis being as "authentic" as possible. I know I've seen edge highlighting and Chapter Markings on the shoulder pauldrons of EPIC scale Space Marines before, for example. I was simply pointing out that you'd need a microscope to see decals on the 6mm Cyclones. You might be able to get away with a simple two color shoulder insignia, but even that's going to be tiny. Forget doing numerals or lettering.

As I said, I think both on the same sprue is going to be the optimal compromise. Let's face it, the rabid fans are not a large enough player base to support the game yet they are instrumental in the marketing of the game as they proselytize to the masses that do generate enough sale to support the game. The combo sprues would allow the fans to satisfy their scale craving while the larger scale encourages beginners by allowing for ease of assembly and painting.

-MaxGravity

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Wed May 27, 2015 7:18 pm

If pb sticks to 6mm, then the figs should be mono posed minis. Later it would be the bees knees if pb released 28mm versions that can be posed dynamically and used for a skirmish game along with rifts at 28mm.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Wed May 27, 2015 10:42 pm

The funniest part will be the raw power of the smaller figures.

Alphas are tiny, but take a beating and pack a punch, as I recall, so you have swarms of itty bitty little things with presumably at least similar points costs per figure as their larger brethren.

Which then means that a single $20 pack of Cyclones could contain enough for, like, 400 points of them.

That part of the business model might get a little wonky, where there's so little to the actual figures that PB struggles to sell enough quantity to make back their investment in the molds.

Look at it this way; each "battle cry" backer or higher (of which there were 5000) each got at least 9 Fighter sprues, 9 Guardian Sprues, 5 Battloid Sprues, 8 Battlepod Sprues, etc, and even that left many people commenting on wanting more. That's hundreds of dollars worth of each figure type at MSRP, and even with a good retail sale, still a solid chunk of change (even when buying a couple Core Boxes instead, it adds up).

Now imagine you can field a full army of Cyclones just buying $40 worth of them at a shop.

See the disparity I'm getting at? The tiny size combined with the raw power of the units actually works against PB's business model.

I know Cyclones were significantly toned down in the second edition, and may be a bit of an outlier all the same, but I hope I've made my point clearly. People aren't going to pay $30 at retail (let alone $40 MSRP) for a pair of teeny tiny Alphas, and those that do pay a more reasonable price are going to need equal or fewer of them to field an army.

Jerell · Unread post by **Jerell** » Wed May 27, 2015 11:07 pm

I do see what you're getting at there... This could be a really tough, challenging issue to resolve. I can see it both ways, there is high potential for upset, rabid players/painters either way it goes...

Maxgravity wrote:both sizes use the same base so have identical game play.

That's what I was thinking as well. If both sizes fit on the same base, would they pretty much play the same? Probably except for line of sight right?

What'll really be surprising is the MDC of the VHT which is about half the size of a VF-1.

There is just so much cool Southern Cross stuff I want to paint, and be able to see. That's my issue. I guess if I could physically see it maybe it would be easier to decide... Not that I think that'll realistically happen.

I look at a battlepod, then compare it to a cyclone... BP looks like it should be much more powerful. Especially given the same guys that designed the Zentraedi stuff had the technology to build Bioroids and small strong armor like the Bioroid Terminators. If they built something big, specifically to better combat a certain foe, I would think the fire power would scale or at least not diminish. But that's a whole different issue. (shrug)

The Beast · Unread post by **The Beast** » Thu May 28, 2015 9:45 pm

While I personally think changing scale would be a bad business choice, I really don't know that much about the hobby. Have any of the other companies done the same thing? Were they successful with it?

Morgan Vening · Thu May 28, 2015 10:26 pm

The Beast wrote:While I personally think changing scale would be a bad business choice, I really don't know that much about the hobby. Have any of the other companies done the same thing? Were they successful with it?

As far as I know, the only company I can recall doing it in a big way, was DreamPod9 with Heavy Gear, and while the reasoning was justified IMO (metal miniatures at the original scale were simply not viable), if I recall correctly, it was at best, a lateral move.

Some other companies, including GW, have slightly (as in less than 10%) changed scale over time, but for the most part, it's not been a big issue.

There is a difference here, in that things from the same era will still be relative. It's not like PB are likely to abandon 1/285 for the current product. There would just be an upscaling for subsequent eras.

Basically, it comes down to how many people will they lose, or get less of, who are purists in this matter (and how much noise they make), vs how many people they will gain, or get more of, due to the miniatures being a little more "accessible". Because if the people who want a larger scale are still going to buy even if it doesn't change (or vice versa), then it's a moot point.

Colonel Wolfe · Sat May 30, 2015 3:41 am

Jerell wrote:
What'll really be surprising is the MDC of the VHT which is about half the size of a VF-1.

Closer to 1/8th.
Half as tall, Half as wide and Half as deep.... also nearly 2x the weight.
Here is ans image for scale comparison.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j16/C ... ompare.jpg

Jerell · Unread post by **Jerell** » Sun May 31, 2015 4:10 pm

Morgan Vening wrote:
The Beast wrote:Some other companies, including GW, have slightly (as in less than 10%) changed scale over time, but for the most part, it's not been a big issue.

That can be hard to gauge with 40k because everything is not to scale in the game anyway. Guardsmen compared to Marines, compared to the vast majority of vehicles for example, are not scale to each other. Some lines certainly have changed size through the years though (looking at the Mark Ib Rhino compared to current).

Interesting, now that you bring that up. Since 40k doesn't have everything to scale for game/playability purposes...

mdauben · Unread post by **mdauben** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:18 am

Colonel Wolfe wrote: Closer to 1/8th.
Half as tall, Half as wide and Half as deep.... also nearly 2x the weight.
Here is ans image for scale comparison.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j16/C ... ompare.jpg

Looking at that comparison to the current figures, I would have no problem with the future figures being in scale with the Battlepods and Valkyries. Sure, they are smaller but they are still big enough for a nice paint job and to look reasonably good on a gaming table.

6mm infantry and other vehicles I have no problems with. I already collect some 6mm SF and historical military miniatures. From the update that was emailed out over the weekend, though, I thought there were some figures in the later time periods that were even smaller? (Sorry, most of my knowledge of RT is from the original show, I'm not familiar with the latter stuff). I could see that something the size of a 6mm infantryman's head might be considered too small for the game.

bielmic · Unread post by **bielmic** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:00 am

I really wish that Palladium would tread the middle ground more often and not make everything black and white (ironically like the RPG books). There is a huge middle ground that they tend to ignore as the company historically deals in absolutes. There is no need to just blanket make everything 15mm and grossly out of scale with the Macross stuff when you can simply use a sliding scale instead that solves most of the problems without introducing more new ones. For instance, you could increase the "medium" sized mecha from 25ft to 35ft (so Alphas, Betas, large Invid, etc) by 20% that makes them visually impressive yet still smaller at a glance than Macross stuff. The smaller stuff at 15ft to 25ft (pretty much all southern cross as well as midsized invid and a few shadowchronicles things) get bumped by 30%. The ocassional tiny things like invid scouts, cyclones, and human sized infantry get bumped 40%. The tiny things are no longer featureless blobs as (incorrectly IMO) stated by palladium but still convey the small size they actually should have. They'd still have to be mounted multiple per base but I don't see that as an issue since it fits with their theme anyways as the defacto swarmers of that era (zergling rush!).

http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/at2/2015/6/8/e48b6e0f22ce028a8671a32d152b6172_1478.jpg

The only potential issue is that the mecha wouldn't be internally to scale with each other (so cyclones would be *GASP* up to the knees of an alpha istead of the ankle!!!) but changing everything to 15mm already makes the robotech saga scale screwey and knocks the macross stuff visually way out of whack and unusable cross-generation for those fans concerned with scale. I see the sliding scale dependent on what is actually NEEDED for each model to be the middle ground between making keeping everything 6mm and having issues with the smallest era or increasing everything and having issues with the largest era.

edit: removed previous pic and replaced it with the combined 6mm/10mm/15mm/sliding scale pic.

Jerell · Unread post by **Jerell** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:20 am

Bielmic, I think you have a great idea here. I would support this!

bielmic · Unread post by **bielmic** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:41 am

Thanks. I corrected the pic link as it was coming back as a download instead of just an image link. I just wanted to present a middle ground for palladium so that they don't think the only choice is to bump EVERYTHING up 250% bigger than the Macross scale which is what a 15mm jump is. It frustrates me that they don't seem to consider the vast middle ground between things. It either has to stay the same or everything goes up! You're either a fan or a critic! We give unrealistic dates or no dates at all! Communication and an open mind would really help the company prosper and it would be really nice if they ACTED on the supposed conversation "restart" and posted in some of these threads. Listening only to the select fan friends who support them in everything they do is part of the issue that got them and RRPGT to this point. None of these issues are new yet because they self select their feedback givers the issues don't occur to them until it is too late unfortunately for all of us (including themselves).

I would also add that you could always make a special "hero" single cyclone model on a 20mm or 25mm base to keep with the RPG licensing rules as an option (like adding a VF-1S to a valk squadron) since that is an important consideration. You still have the cyclone and invid scout swarms with multiple models per 40mm base but have the option of adding the "hero" rpg character upgrade single model smaller base.

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:47 pm

Since the outset of this game, I thought about purchasing in. But as I'm a gamer, and I would want to use this in a game, I wanted to see how much interest there is in my area.

I'm also a fan of Robotech, and that makes it, that I want all 3 era's able to be interactive with each other.

My question is this: How does Battletech deal with it, when they have Elementals? They are about the same size as a Cyclone.

With that, I can see a sliding scale, but I would prefer that they would continue with their idiom of perfectionism.

glitterboy2098 · Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:59 pm

Tiree wrote:Since the outset of this game, I thought about purchasing in. But as I'm a gamer, and I would want to use this in a game, I wanted to see how much interest there is in my area.
I'm also a fan of Robotech, and that makes it, that I want all 3 era's able to be interactive with each other.
My question is this: How does Battletech deal with it, when they have Elementals? They are about the same size as a Cyclone.

as an avid battletech player..
that answer depends a bit on when you played.

under FASA and wen the mini's were done by Ral Partha, Elementals were the same scale as the mechs, about 1/285th (give or take) and thus about 8mm tall. they however were not very detailed, and it was the silloute rather than the details that made it obvious what they were. this was back when they were one of the few battle armor's in the game.

when the game passed to Catalyst Games, and the mini's to iron Wind Metals, that eventually changed. the old molds wore out, and IWM decided to increase the size of their battlearmor to, with figures close to 14mm's tall so more details could be added and battlesuits made more visually distinct. the mechs stayed roughly the same size though.

some fans hated the move because they were scale purists, more hated it because the new battle armor figs towered over their collections of old figs. most loved it though because it made battlearmor easier to paint and look better, and they still looked good next to the mechs.

i have images and such posted in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=97&t=148472#p2864884

wilycoyote · Unread post by **wilycoyote** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:07 pm

I never considered it before but I think Bielmic might be onto something there - kudos to you sir.

Although it might give the purists a few palpitations, is there any reason not to increase the size of SC and Invid period models, to something more reasonable, if the aim is to mix and match especially with the Macross era? Note I play 6mm or smaller, but RTT does not need more obstacles if it is to grow at all.

As long as the models were consistent in their own era, I cannot see it as a real problem as such. Sure things like scenery etc will be an issue, but hardly insurmountable. Perhaps the biggest challenge will be balancing out the new forces and extending the existing rulesets.

If nothing else it is an elegant solution. the idea of multi scaled items on the same sprue - price threshholds are already high for RTT and personaly I do not want to buy redndant models

Question outside of the fanbase, would anyone especially little Johnny know or worrythat his cool robot toys modelswere oversized

glitterboy2098 · Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:26 pm

i think he's onto something as far as the smaller size mecha go (cyclones, Logan, silverback, tyrolian PA, etc), a larger scale, more 8mm or 9mm than 6mm, would work well for that.

but larger size mecha (Ajax, Alpha, Beta, RCB, etc) need to stay 6mm or there abouts because those will show the biggest issues with compatibility if you change the scale.

remember, RTT uses true line of sight.. so changing the scale across the board means that 6mm stuff and the larger scale stuff are no longer fairly balanced.

and remember the Beta is nearly the same size as a VF-1. increase the scale for everything and suddenly it becomes this huge figure, bigger than even the current RTT zent mecha

increasing the size of the smaller units is not a big problem because they'd still look good against the macross stuff, and still have the advantage of their smaller size in regards to LOS. but the big units need to stay in scale with each other.

as i said, this is pretty much what battletech did (small units got bigger scale, large units stayed as is) and it worked out more or less ok.

bielmic · Unread post by **bielmic** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:39 pm

Thanks for the replies (both pro and con). To supplement the earlier pic showing how a sliding scale shift would work, here is the same original source pic (so the usual caveats about its authenticity and accuracy apply) with EVERYTHING non-macross shifted to 15mm which is 250% larger. Assuming you care about fighting between eras, welcome to the world of alphas dwarfing almost all zentraedi mecha and hovertanks looking down on VF-1 battloids.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/at2/2015/6/8/e48b6e0f22ce028a8671a32d152b6172_1478.jpg

http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/at2/2015/6/8/19173c29da4dd7a3dbf8b941cd76fb81_1478.jpg

I know that the cyclone is important to the scale discussion but Palladium has posted another update and it exclusively deals with just the cyclone. Again, I stress that moderation (not the NMI kind but rather a middle ground approach) is the key to successfully tackling this issue. The cyclone might be better but the rest of the mecha are unacceptable to me at 15mm and I wouldn't want to plop down my Macross stuff across the table because it would frankly look odd to anyone familiar with the IP. YMMV of course but a 250% across the board jump for Southern Cross and Mospeada is not the way I want it to go. From the update pics and the original scale pics I wouldn't want it to simply stay at 6mm either though personally.

I'm obviously biased since I came up with the pics above but the sliding scale is definitely the best choice IMO. The 15mm mecha tower over everything macross unacceptable. A blanket change to 10mm pictured above would be acceptable IMO but not the best choice. The best, as stated above, would be to evaluate each model individually and generally increase the SC/Mospeada stuff 20-30% except for the tiniest like the invid scout and cyclones that would bump up 40-50% respectively each. As always, YMMV.

McPherson · Unread post by **McPherson** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:48 am

I agree with you Bielmic that a sliding scale would definetly be the most elegant and visually appealing solution.

As it stands the whole problem arises from Robotech's mashing of three separate source series together, but look at each series by itself and tell me that scales don't seem to shift from episode to episode.

By using your suggestion of a sliding scale we could end up with a range of pieces that while not 100% accurate to the numbers posted in the RPG books / robotech.com / name your source would 'look' right for both role play aspects and for RRT as a wargame and isn't that really what everyone is aiming for? The ability to combine all three eras for the widest selection of troop choices and army choices for the game and the ability to use the miniatures for their RPG campaigns?

Yes it would still leave teeny tiny cyclones on multiples to a base which wouldn't necessarily work for following individual characters in a role playing scenario, but as others (and myself) have pointed out already you could easily do a few 28mm Cyclones as either resin display pieces like the SDF-1 or collectors editions. As long as they fall underneath the 3" high rule that I read is a potential sticking point in another thread then everything is copacetic and everyone should be happy legally?

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