Headshots?

[eliakon]

Seriously? On a huge number of threads everyone seems to go on about how their characters all use headshots all the time to speed up combat, minimize risk, maximize salvage ect.....
So my question is this? Do the NPCs in these games do the same things?
It seems a lot like it is assumed that PCs get a special pass to be allowed to use 'cool' tricks that are 'too deadly for NPCs'...
Because if the GM does them they become a killer GM. Is this a double standard?

[Alrik Vas]

well, the rule about head shots is funny. I don't count the damage as double if its hitting armor. its supposed to be (at least to me) bonus damage for hitting an unprotected head.

[kaid]

One other oddity about using head shots unless you are immobilizing them is on a lot of armors the head is the second most heavily armed part of the body and considered a smaller target. I tend to have better luck "disarming" pardon the pun my opponents.

[Dog_O_War]

Seriously? On a huge number of threads everyone seems to go on about how their characters all use headshots all the time to speed up combat, minimize risk, maximize salvage ect.....
So my question is this? Do the NPCs in these games do the same things?
It seems a lot like it is assumed that PCs get a special pass to be allowed to use 'cool' tricks that are 'too deadly for NPCs'...
Because if the GM does them they become a killer GM. Is this a double standard?

I do where appropriate.

By this I mean that if a low/animal intelligence creature is listed as doing such a thing, then they do, otherwise I direct attacks at the main body/whatever is attackable.

For intelligent creatures, I try to get into the mindset of them; for low-end minions and grunts and the combatavely challenged, they shy away from such actions and stick to what's easy to hit. For experienced foes, they attack the main body unless ordered otherwise.

For opponents of skill this becomes a regular attack option given optimal circumstances, but go to the main body when the penalties begin to accrue.

For elite opponents (your assassins, gladiators, etc.) this is the primary target (usually the neck), and will take moderate penalties (circumstances, etc.) to strike at the "sweet spot".

As for my players, they do as they find best. For example, there is a Wolfen Dragon Juicer in the party and against more heavily armoured foes, this is the area he attacks, unless an opponent is proving difficult, or there are multiple targets where area-attacks are put to better use.

As for salvaging, well they make their decisions based on two factors; economics and survival. If they will survive, then they think in terms of economics when opportunity presents itself. Otherwise they do what they need to survive.

[Shark_Force]

speed up combat by shooting at the head?

that sounds a bit off...

it takes 2 actions to make a called shot, possibly 3 if your GM rules it must also be aimed. most helmets are close to as tough as the main body, and being a called shot you're less likely to hit the head (and end up dealing some damage to the main body).

it's a nice tactic for salvage if you can pull it off, but it certainly isn't something i'd do every time.

[Bill]

it takes 2 actions to make a called shot, possibly 3 if your GM rules it must also be aimed. most helmets are close to as tough as the main body, and being a called shot you're less likely to hit the head (and end up dealing some damage to the main body).

That's exactly how it speeds up combat. I go from resolving six separate actions to resolving two that consume all six. It really does make the rounds go faster.

[Killer Cyborg]

Seriously? On a huge number of threads everyone seems to go on about how their characters all use headshots all the time to speed up combat, minimize risk, maximize salvage ect.....
So my question is this? Do the NPCs in these games do the same things?
It seems a lot like it is assumed that PCs get a special pass to be allowed to use 'cool' tricks that are 'too deadly for NPCs'...
Because if the GM does them they become a killer GM. Is this a double standard?

In my games, yes, the NPCs do the same thing. What goes around comes around.
Of course, headshots were mostly a good idea before Called Shots took 2-3 attacks. Post-RUE, headshots usually aren't worth it, unless you can one-shot them in an ambush.

[Kagashi]

Seriously? On a huge number of threads everyone seems to go on about how their characters all use headshots all the time to speed up combat, minimize risk, maximize salvage ect.....
So my question is this? Do the NPCs in these games do the same things?
It seems a lot like it is assumed that PCs get a special pass to be allowed to use 'cool' tricks that are 'too deadly for NPCs'...
Because if the GM does them they become a killer GM. Is this a double standard?

In my games, yes, the NPCs do the same thing. What goes around comes around.
Of course, headshots were mostly a good idea before Called Shots took 2-3 attacks. Post-RUE, headshots usually aren't worth it, unless you can one-shot them in an ambush.

Agreed. But as a GM I only employ this if the group does it all the time. Why? Because if I headshot a player, and I am successful, he is rolling up a new character. I see it as a sign of respect from the GM to player that he will not go out of his way to just off a character so easily. However, if a player employs this tactic often, in game, he will become known for this and other snipers will be hired to take him out. But otherwise, its not very much fun for a player to be eating dinner then getting his SDC head vaped by an MD laser blast with no chance to take defensive actions during an ambush.

well, the rule about head shots is funny. I don't count the damage as double if its hitting armor. its supposed to be (at least to me) bonus damage for hitting an unprotected head.

Neither do I. I assign Damage Capacity by Location for static organic values, to make the system inline with how robots, power armor, and body armor are treated. In the case of the head, I give it 50% of the main body (which is 100% of the base value). Thus, hitting an unarmored head would effectively be doing double damage anyway. Therefore I ignore the rule of double damage to the head because I effectively worked it in with percentages. That way, damage is damage, be it mega or structural and the target hit is treated the same, whether it is armored or not.

Unless specified to a particular body part:
- Main Body: 100% of the base HP/SDC or MDC value
- Head: 50%
- Leg: 25%
- Foot: 10%
- Arm or Tentacle: 15%
- Hand: 10%
- Tail: 25%
- Wings: 50%

[Alrik Vas]

so, if I wanted to ruin someone's day and hack off their foot and they have 50 sdc we're looking at like 5 sdc damage if they're not wearing armor? no gripe, just asking.

[Kagashi]

pretty much, but its a called shot.

[Alrik Vas]

seems a small price to pay, considering someone with 50 sdc is pretty tough, but a whole boatload of minor things can do d6 damage and potentially destroy a foot or hand. do you ever have issues with this system?

like, players with lots of attacks and a +5 PS bonus just going around disabling everyone in a bar fight?

I'm also curious how you have characters deal with destroyed limbs. penalties, keep going, out of the test of the fight?

[Kagashi]

seems a small price to pay, considering someone with 50 sdc is pretty tough, but a whole boatload of minor things can do d6 damage and potentially destroy a foot or hand. do you ever have issues with this system?

like, players with lots of attacks and a +5 PS bonus just going around disabling everyone in a bar fight?

I'm also curious how you have characters deal with destroyed limbs. penalties, keep going, out of the test of the fight?

Ever hear of cybernetics? You lose a limb, you fairly disabled. Likewise, thats some massive bleeding, so your buddy better have the First Aid or Paramedic skill to help you out.

I Implemented the system because some people were misusing the 1:100 MDC to SDC ratio, thinking if they hit any portion of the SDC target with MD, the entire target would be instantly vaporized because it was all listed as a single value. Lose an arm...sure, but not not instant death. Likewise, that guy with a +5 damage to SDC attacks might reduce the foot or hand, but that does not mean the foot or hand is now severed off and vaporized. But it DOES mean the foot or hand has been rendered useless (broken) until it can be repaired.

But honestly, I dont see it being all that different than targeting lesser armored parts of body or power armor in the much more common MDC combat of Rifts. As a matter of a fact, now its the same system.

As far as penalties are concerned, they are listed on page 20-22 of Rifts Conversion Book 1 Revised. Those seem to work fairly well for me in the past.

[jaymz]

I just head shotted a PC's bot with an un guided missile. So yes I use it against them. I do not play my NPC enemies as dumb nor incompetent.

Pepsi Jedi will attest to that.

[Alrik Vas]

Ever hear of cybernetics?

Yessir. I was just talking about the moment of injury, but if you know a cyberdoc who can patch implants during battle, give me his number.

You lose a limb, you fairly disabled. Likewise, thats some massive bleeding, so your buddy better have the First Aid or Paramedic skill to help you out.

I Implemented the system because some people were misusing the 1:100 MDC to SDC ratio, thinking if they hit any portion of the SDC target with MD, the entire target would be instantly vaporized because it was all listed as a single value. Lose an arm...sure, but not not instant death. Likewise, that guy with a +5 damage to SDC attacks might reduce the foot or hand, but that does not mean the foot or hand is now severed off and vaporized. But it DOES mean the foot or hand has been rendered useless (broken) until it can be repaired.

This is wise, and I see your point. I do something similar, though when someone gets hit in the arm or leg with an MDC weapon I put them at 0 HP and it's coma time anyway. If someone heals them with magic or psionics, because those are kind of miraculous, I'll let them keep fighting. Bio-regeneration on self works too.

But honestly, I dont see it being all that different than targeting lesser armored parts of body or power armor in the much more common MDC combat of Rifts. As a matter of a fact, now its the same system.

As far as penalties are concerned, they are listed on page 20-22 of Rifts Conversion Book 1 Revised. Those seem to work fairly well for me in the past.

I don't have my book here. Are you talking about the damage listing for robots and power armor? If so, have you found the penalties and modifiers make sense for fleshy targets?

Though, if it's some kind of critical damage table for organics, cool. I recall something like that in compendium of modern weapons, but it's been ages since I've read it.

[Kagashi]

Ever hear of cybernetics?

Yessir. I was just talking about the moment of injury, but if you know a cyberdoc who can patch implants during battle, give me his number.

Ha, speed surgery. Its listed on page 672 of the Shadow Update RUE: Revised special edition. (j/k)

You lose a limb, you fairly disabled. Likewise, thats some massive bleeding, so your buddy better have the First Aid or Paramedic skill to help you out.

I Implemented the system because some people were misusing the 1:100 MDC to SDC ratio, thinking if they hit any portion of the SDC target with MD, the entire target would be instantly vaporized because it was all listed as a single value. Lose an arm...sure, but not not instant death. Likewise, that guy with a +5 damage to SDC attacks might reduce the foot or hand, but that does not mean the foot or hand is now severed off and vaporized. But it DOES mean the foot or hand has been rendered useless (broken) until it can be repaired.

This is wise, and I see your point. I do something similar, though when someone gets hit in the arm or leg with an MDC weapon I put them at 0 HP and it's coma time anyway. If someone heals them with magic or psionics, because those are kind of miraculous, I'll let them keep fighting. Bio-regeneration on self works too.

Absolutely. Even without, the penalties below still allow the character to fight, only not at 100% of his/her combat potential.

But honestly, I dont see it being all that different than targeting lesser armored parts of body or power armor in the much more common MDC combat of Rifts. As a matter of a fact, now its the same system.

As far as penalties are concerned, they are listed on page 20-22 of Rifts Conversion Book 1 Revised. Those seem to work fairly well for me in the past.

I don't have my book here. Are you talking about the damage listing for robots and power armor? If so, have you found the penalties and modifiers make sense for fleshy targets?

Though, if it's some kind of critical damage table for organics, cool. I recall something like that in compendium of modern weapons, but it's been ages since I've read it.

[/quote]

Yes Sir. These are specifically for fleshy targets (although listed as optional). The one thing I have wondered after reading those rules was, how did one determine where the character was hit in a particular location and how did you determine when the hit was critical? Using my system, now you know when you get into HPs at that location, you can use those rules.

Do you ask because you think 10% of base value is too low for an arm or foot?

[Alrik Vas]

I asked because I wasn't sure and I wanted to know your reasoning, basically. I thought about it and a knife stab to the hand can disable it entirely, stepping on someone's foot just right can break it, sprained ankles hamper your mobility like crazy, none of these things take much "damage", and most people don't have much SDC.

I like to keep it a little abstract, basically just enough that I can smoke and mirrors things if it's necessary, even though I loathe to do so.

oh, and location? i use one of those awesome D12's that has hit locations all over it instead of numbers.

[Thinyser]

Seriously? On a huge number of threads everyone seems to go on about how their characters all use headshots all the time to speed up combat, minimize risk, maximize salvage ect.....
So my question is this? Do the NPCs in these games do the same things?
It seems a lot like it is assumed that PCs get a special pass to be allowed to use 'cool' tricks that are 'too deadly for NPCs'...
Because if the GM does them they become a killer GM. Is this a double standard?

Depends on the game and what is OK to do to your players, cut them a break or go all out and put them up against deadly enemies every session or some middle ground.

My old GM took headshots at us all the time. Difference was NPCs did not hit as often as we did. Reason why? In his game the bonus to strike from PP applied to firearms as well, but the NPC's usually did not have as high of stats as we, as PCs, did. Also IIRC I think that he gave bonuses to strike for being proficient in your firearms more than just the normal +3 to aimed and +1 to burst similar to how melee weapons get +1 at level 2,3,5,7,9,12,15 (or whatever) so as we leveled we could be more accurate with our strikes.

He rationalized this because if you are naturally adept (high PP) then you should be better that Joe Average that hasn't got the same innate gifts as you, and also that the more experience you get with your weapons the better you will be able to use them so a flat +3 aimed and +1 burst did not reflect somebody becoming very familiar with their weapons through years of use and training.

I agree to a point but have decided to go with the normal RAW in my most recent Rifts game. So far my players have determined that getting shot with MD is to be avoided, period. MD is deadly and they so far have not taken any MD because they have attacked with stealth from cover at long range and took head shots against their enemies to take them out quickly (they haven't had a chance to salvage&sell anything yet).

I plan on getting the drop on them eventually and getting in some head shots of my own but so far they have been able to detect and avoid (or rather ambush my ambushers) my attempts to ambush them.

Last night they killed a neuron beast by focusing on its head and (with one exception) keeping at long range. The exception got bio manipulation paralyzed and fell 60 feet into a ravine (took only a few SDC through his MD armor but has a new appreciation how easily it would have been to die in the encounter).

[Pepsi Jedi]

I just head shotted a PC's bot with an un guided missile. So yes I use it against them. I do not play my NPC enemies as dumb nor incompetent.

Pepsi Jedi will attest to that.

To be fair, the PC was flying around launching grenades into the trees and using a cannon that was roughly 10 TIMES the strength of everyone else in the game. So he was a pretty big honkin' threat. They targeted the canon too.

[SpiritInterface]

One other oddity about using head shots unless you are immobilizing them is on a lot of armors the head is the second most heavily armed part of the body and considered a smaller target. I tend to have better luck "disarming" pardon the pun my opponents.

Being a Small target doesn't matter because there is no penalty for target size in Palladium in general.

[Thinyser]

One other oddity about using head shots unless you are immobilizing them is on a lot of armors the head is the second most heavily armed part of the body and considered a smaller target. I tend to have better luck "disarming" pardon the pun my opponents.

Being a Small target doesn't matter because there is no penalty for target size in Palladium in general.

Called shot is a target number 12 if you don't call your shot it goes main body with a target number of 8. I think that is a significant penalty in and of itself but it gets worse.
Called shot on a small target (like a head) is either 14 or 16 depending on GM discretion. I make headshots (or arms) 16, and since by the book you only get a +3 for aim (and usually no other bonuses) you need to get 13 on the die.

I do allow called shots without aiming since its all about intent I can intend to shoot the head without actually taking an extra action to "carefully take aim" but I understand thats a houserule. As such most of my players do headshots with target numbers of 16 and have to get 16 on the die.

I also say that if do not aim you miss your called shot, but hit 8 or above, it does hit main body which can be good or bad depending on what they want. If they are trying to kill him quick then its good since the headshot misses do main body damage and could end up killing him that way. If they are trying to take out the enemy and get max value from their salvaged armor then its bad. IF they take the time to aim then miss their headshot it misses totally (this may seem counter intuitive but it works well).

[Shark_Force]

there is also often a penalty to hit smaller parts of things on a called shot in PB rules. there may not be anything specific, but the examples show that there is some intention for small targets to be hard to hit.

[guardiandashi]

I know we used a interpretation of what the rules said (this was long before RUE came out)
1 aimed called shots took at most 1 extra action if that.
2 we did apply the PP bonus to ALL attacks for the reason previously mentioned.
3 bonuses from all sources were combined when applicable. so Hand 2 hand combat skills were not specifically for melee only but were treated as combat training in general.
4 wp bonuses stacked with combat bonuses as applicable
5 other bonuses if applicable applied as well.

when all was said and done, I had several chars that depending on the weapon had in the range of +10 to +20 strike bonuses but closer to +30 to parry or dodge and this was NORMAL in our campaigns.

My main char for a long time did tend to try to ambush and headshot things like SAMAS on a fairly regular basis. of course the weapon she usually used to do this with was a shemarian rail gun so it ended up something like...

(called) aimed shot needs a 12 or better, -3 penalty to hit the head, -5 (general penalty due to samas speed and range) so total needs a modified 20 or better to hit.
bonuses: +8 strike bonus from pp, +4 strike bonus wp heavy +2 to hit h2h MA +2 bonus sniper skill +2 bonus from the shemarian railgun targeting systems total +18 to strike
so all in all I really only needed a 2 or better on the die to hit and do 2d6x10 mdc to the head of the samas, if I did more than ~80 mdc (head has 70) I just one shot killed that samas pilot, or at least blew his helmet off and any followup attack that damages the head with mdc means they are dead.

[Alrik Vas]

that's not much of an interpretation as it is house rules. but whatever works

[jaymz]

One other oddity about using head shots unless you are immobilizing them is on a lot of armors the head is the second most heavily armed part of the body and considered a smaller target. I tend to have better luck "disarming" pardon the pun my opponents.

Being a Small target doesn't matter because there is no penalty for target size in Palladium in general.

Called shot is a target number 12 if you don't call your shot it goes main body with a target number of 8.

Actually as of RUE no a called shot does not require a 12. It requires an 8 just like a normal shot. However a called shot now takes 2 actions instead of one.

[jaymz]

there is also often a penalty to hit smaller parts of things on a called shot in PB rules. there may not be anything specific, but the examples show that there is some intention for small targets to be hard to hit.

yeah typically a head is a -3 to strike

[Thinyser]

One other oddity about using head shots unless you are immobilizing them is on a lot of armors the head is the second most heavily armed part of the body and considered a smaller target. I tend to have better luck "disarming" pardon the pun my opponents.

Being a Small target doesn't matter because there is no penalty for target size in Palladium in general.

Called shot is a target number 12 if you don't call your shot it goes main body with a target number of 8.

Actually as of RUE no a called shot does not require a 12. It requires an 8 just like a normal shot. However a called shot now takes 2 actions instead of one.

Well thats 2 more reasons (one of which I knew about) that I dislike RUE.

[SpiritInterface]

there is also often a penalty to hit smaller parts of things on a called shot in PB rules. there may not be anything specific, but the examples show that there is some intention for small targets to be hard to hit.

If Palladium intended for there to be a penalty for small targets they should have said so straight out instead of implying it through special case examples.

[Bill]

Not to be too snarky, but Palladium Games are where the GM has absolute authority. If he or she says you're at a penalty, you're at a penalty for any reason whatsoever. That many giant robots and suits of power-armor feature specific penalties is a nice support for the GM to justify the call with, but it's not necessary.

[Alrik Vas]

there is also often a penalty to hit smaller parts of things on a called shot in PB rules. there may not be anything specific, but the examples show that there is some intention for small targets to be hard to hit.

If Palladium intended for there to be a penalty for small targets they should have said so straight out instead of implying it through special case examples.

You're preaching to the choir, brother.

The same goes for, well...a crap ton of their rules. But I'll play it anyway. They should use L5R's current tagline and call it <Game> Your Way.