RUE, Hand to Hand Basic, and Level 3

[Kagashi]

So, in RUE, page 345 clearly states any character can attempt a Kick Attack dealing 1D8 SDC. The cut and paste of Hand to Hand Basic on page 347 awards the character Kick Attack at level 3. To me, RAW, that means level three is nothing more than a wasted level advancement, earning an attack the character already had since birth. How do you treat it?

[Alrik Vas]

human fist is supposedly 1d4...so I count the kick as 1d6. H2H basic's kick is better at 1d8.

Not terribly so, but meh.

[ShadowLogan]

While you could attempt to make a kick attack before level 3 with HTH: Basic (or any HTH style really in RUE), you are not proficient with it. What I mean is that the kicker has to contend with things like balance, might take longer to do (counts as 2 actions instead of 1). Sort of like how w/modern WP one can only do things w/training (reload, clean, ammunition, gun safety, use the sight, and kick) but the basic operation is w/n your grasp (ie point and pull the trigger).

Though I do agree that it seems wasted due to the apparent cut and paste nature. That or the kick attack at 1d8 doesn't become available until level 3, prior to that weaker kick attacks are done or not learned until level 3. Granted as I look at RMB the kick attack there is 1d6 at level 3, but they don't give you various attacks note like in RUE. They list kick attack as 1d6 or 1d8 in the equivalent sections.

[fbdaury]

Besides, you automatically get either a 1d8 (Acrobatics) or 2d4 (Gymnastics) kick attack for taking those skills, even at level one.

[Nekira Sudacne]

So, in RUE, page 345 clearly states any character can attempt a Kick Attack dealing 1D8 SDC. The cut and paste of Hand to Hand Basic on page 347 awards the character Kick Attack at level 3. To me, RAW, that means level three is nothing more than a wasted level advancement, earning an attack the character already had since birth. How do you treat it?

No, it's simply stating a chart of damages of attacks given by hand to hand. Until level 3 you can't attempt to kick in combat at all. Just like you can't attempt an elbow or backwards sweep kick. unless your hand to hand specifically says you can, you can't attempt anything on those charts other than a basic 1d4 punch or doubled power punch. Any attempt at kicks, forearm swipes, ect. are simply useless flailing if you don't have the proper training.

[Kagashi]

So, in RUE, page 345 clearly states any character can attempt a Kick Attack dealing 1D8 SDC. The cut and paste of Hand to Hand Basic on page 347 awards the character Kick Attack at level 3. To me, RAW, that means level three is nothing more than a wasted level advancement, earning an attack the character already had since birth. How do you treat it?

No, it's simply stating a chart of damages of attacks given by hand to hand. Until level 3 you can't attempt to kick in combat at all. Just like you can't attempt an elbow or backwards sweep kick. unless your hand to hand specifically says you can, you can't attempt anything on those charts other than a basic 1d4 punch or doubled power punch. Any attempt at kicks, forearm swipes, ect. are simply useless flailing if you don't have the proper training.

Kick Attack: This is the simple act of using one's legs and feet to kick an opponent. A typical Kick does 1D8 damage. Anyone can try to kick an opponent.

Emphasis on anyone. That literally means anyone. H2H: None included. H2H: Basic at 1st level included. Roll that D20. That's your try. Role playing wise, that kick would likely be a donkey kick, foot stomp, or soccer kick, rather than a martial arts move like a snap kick, push kick, or side kick you would learn in Karate or Tae Kwan Do. The latter would be a "Karate Kick", which deals 2D6 SDC.

Kick Attack (basic/average): 1D8 (or 2D4).

Emphasis on the word "basic", i.e. doesn't get any simpler than that.

Basic combat training enables the character to use any basic/common attacks, including Punch, Elbow, Kick, Knee, Disarm, Dodge, Entangle, Body Block/Tackle, Roll with Impact, Power Punch (but not Power Kick) and Pull Punch - but no special moves or martial arts attacks such as Automatic Dodge, Back Flip, Holds, Karate Punches, Leap Kick or other moves

Show me at what level, H2H Basic allows for that Knee if it isnt at the moment the character learns the skill (level 1). Now apply that to the Kick attack it clearly lists as being known.

Something is wrong. Either RUE is wrong, in many different places; or the one mention of a kick attack at level 3 reprinted from RBM is just a cut and paste error.

[Alrik Vas]

Well, if H2H Basic gave strike bonuses before like, level 7 or whatever, you could make the argument that you don't get hand to hand bonuses to attack because until level 3 the kick would be "untrained"...

...but the festering pile that is H2H Basic is what it is.

[Nekira Sudacne]

So, in RUE, page 345 clearly states any character can attempt a Kick Attack dealing 1D8 SDC. The cut and paste of Hand to Hand Basic on page 347 awards the character Kick Attack at level 3. To me, RAW, that means level three is nothing more than a wasted level advancement, earning an attack the character already had since birth. How do you treat it?

No, it's simply stating a chart of damages of attacks given by hand to hand. Until level 3 you can't attempt to kick in combat at all. Just like you can't attempt an elbow or backwards sweep kick. unless your hand to hand specifically says you can, you can't attempt anything on those charts other than a basic 1d4 punch or doubled power punch. Any attempt at kicks, forearm swipes, ect. are simply useless flailing if you don't have the proper training.

Kick Attack: This is the simple act of using one's legs and feet to kick an opponent. A typical Kick does 1D8 damage. Anyone can try to kick an opponent.

Emphasis on anyone. That literally means anyone. H2H: None included. H2H: Basic at 1st level included. Roll that D20. That's your try. Role playing wise, that kick would likely be a donkey kick, foot stomp, or soccer kick, rather than a martial arts move like a snap kick, push kick, or side kick you would learn in Karate or Tae Kwan Do. The latter would be a "Karate Kick", which deals 2D6 SDC.

Kick Attack (basic/average): 1D8 (or 2D4).

Emphasis on the word "basic", i.e. doesn't get any simpler than that.

Basic combat training enables the character to use any basic/common attacks, including Punch, Elbow, Kick, Knee, Disarm, Dodge, Entangle, Body Block/Tackle, Roll with Impact, Power Punch (but not Power Kick) and Pull Punch - but no special moves or martial arts attacks such as Automatic Dodge, Back Flip, Holds, Karate Punches, Leap Kick or other moves

Show me at what level, H2H Basic allows for that Knee if it isnt at the moment the character learns the skill (level 1). Now apply that to the Kick attack it clearly lists as being known.

Something is wrong. Either RUE is wrong, in many different places; or the one mention of a kick attack at level 3 reprinted from RBM is just a cut and paste error.

Okay, I did read the table wrong, but to be fair, apparently it didn't make any sense anyway

[Thinyser]

Something is wrong. Either RUE is wrong, in many different places; or the one mention of a kick attack at level 3 reprinted from RBM is just a cut and paste error.

Thats 99.9% likely the reason.

That said if you want to make level 3 count for something make it an extra attack per melee that can ONLY be used in melee and ONLY to do a kick if the opportunity presents itself.

[Tor]

I like Alrik's idea of demoting the 'kick attack' anyone can do to 1d6.

Also in all realism: untrained people do not throw kicks as fast as punches. I don't think that ever really happens... so a kick should take 2 attacks to do.

Perhaps an exception if your opponent is immobilized or at least on the ground since stomping is faster than kicking at someone who is standing up.

There should definitely be some unique upgrade to HtH level 3 or being an acrobat / gymnast.

I remember the days where the 1d8 kick was an advanced move...

Wasn't it boosted to 2d8 in some of the newer games like Dead Reign? We could just sub that in fr the Hth/acro

[Bill]

Unless you want to shift power attack and other two action maneuvers up to three actions, kick seems unlikely to ever be used if you make it a two action option.

That said if you want to make level 3 count for something make it an extra attack per melee that can ONLY be used in melee and ONLY to do a kick if the opportunity presents itself.

This could lead to some interesting fights. A bit more martial artsy description-wise than you might intend though.

[Tor]

As it is though, with kicks doing more damage than punches, there's also little incentive to throw a punch besides RP.

If both cost 2 actions we could have some people better at power-punching and some better at kicking.

An untrained person might be able to throw a haymaker with more power at a higher target than with a kick, although I think the reverse applies if the target is lower down. Some GM decisions (like, are you aiming at a head or a foot) might be needed to apply penalties to strike or damage depending on the target.

If it's just main body, something like a knee should be easier to hit with (and more damaging) than your average kick. Most people just lack the flexibility and balance to put any serious power into a kick above hip level. Even having done a few months of basic TKD and nearing the splits it's still heck of hard to chamber any serious power when you go higher up.

[Killer Cyborg]

So, in RUE, page 345 clearly states any character can attempt a Kick Attack dealing 1D8 SDC. The cut and paste of Hand to Hand Basic on page 347 awards the character Kick Attack at level 3. To me, RAW, that means level three is nothing more than a wasted level advancement, earning an attack the character already had since birth. How do you treat it?

It's just a matter of Palladium not adjusting for their own power creep.
In the RMB (p. 35), an untrained kick attack did 1d4 damage, with 1d6 or 1d8 for a trained kick attack.
RUE crept up the standard kick damage without creeping up the trained kick damage.

Of course, even in the RMB, it was generally an unimportant level, because SDC kicks weren't all that useful in combat, and even if it was, just taking Acrobatics would give you a 1d8 kick, and Gymnastics would give you a 2d4 kick, and either of those skills could be taken by many characters at first level.

[Thinyser]

Unless you want to shift power attack and other two action maneuvers up to three actions, kick seems unlikely to ever be used if you make it a two action option.

That said if you want to make level 3 count for something make it an extra attack per melee that can ONLY be used in melee and ONLY to do a kick if the opportunity presents itself.

This could lead to some interesting fights. A bit more martial artsy description-wise than you might intend though.

As I intended actually.

[Razorwing]

Just as there are many ways to throw a punch (some doing more damage than others), so too are there multiple ways to kick someone. The basic Punch (1d4) and Kick (1d8) are just the (more or less) untrained uses of these attacks. More advanced punches (Knife Hand, Fore-Knuckle Punch, Palm Strike) and Kicks (Roundhouse, Crescent Kick, Backwards Sweep) require advanced training to master (HtH of some sort) and time to master.

This is what the 3rd level of HtH: Basic should provide... advanced options for kicks. The more advanced the HtH training, the better the options one gets as the amount of training provided is generally a little better.

For my games, we tend to allow the choice of 2 advanced kicks for Basic, 4 for Expert and Assassin and 6 for Martial Arts at the level they allow Kicks to be learned. Yes, some have chosen the most damaging kicks... thinking that <damage=better, but a few have surprised the others with the less damaging attacks (especially trips and sweeps). We've also ruled that all attacks (punches and kicks) that automatically do critical damage count as 2 attacks (or more if the description says so)... so loading up on those attacks can burn through a player's attacks quite quickly.

[Dog_O_War]

So, in RUE, page 345 clearly states any character can attempt a Kick Attack dealing 1D8 SDC. The cut and paste of Hand to Hand Basic on page 347 awards the character Kick Attack at level 3. To me, RAW, that means level three is nothing more than a wasted level advancement, earning an attack the character already had since birth. How do you treat it?

I just ignore it. It's 1d8 SDC. It could be a d12 and it probably still wouldn't matter. From an oberservational point, in every game of Rifts I have ever played, ran, or observed, nobody has ever bothered to perform an SDC kick.

[Tor]

It's worth exploring for the sake of Inquisitors and Larhold Human Renegades though =/

[Shark_Force]

perhaps marginally so. i guess it is at least possible that someone will care enough to do it, which is more than you can say in other situations.

that said, i'd go back to RMB... untrained scrub should not be kicking for better damage than a knife.

[Tor]

That punches do as much damage as knives has always been problematic, blood loss rules helped a little here at least.