Power stunting

[barna10]

In the classic Marvel RPG there is the concept of power stunting, or using your powers in new ways.

Have you seen any house rules for this in HU or Palladium in general?

[Reagren Wright]

Funny you should ask about this...Be so much easier if we had some kind of... official rules for it. Only time will tell.

[eliakon]

Offically, there are no rules on the subject. Several people have made various house rules on various ways to implement such a system.

I doubt that we will see anything official since
1) It does not seem to mesh with the super power concept of the Palladium system
and
2) Since, as you noted, Marvel already HAS such a system, it would be hard to create a system that would not come across as simply ripping that off. (can we say legal entanglements)

[Nightmask]

Offically, there are no rules on the subject. Several people have made various house rules on various ways to implement such a system.

I doubt that we will see anything official since
1) It does not seem to mesh with the super power concept of the Palladium system
and
2) Since, as you noted, Marvel already HAS such a system, it would be hard to create a system that would not come across as simply ripping that off. (can we say legal entanglements)

None on number 2, they've no interest in the long out of print Marvel system (although someone created the 4C system out of it from a 'safe not sorry' standpoint but still retains power stunts).

[Bill]

Stunting is also a common mechanic for contemporary superhero RPGs. The concept itself wont cause any legal issues, only the appropriation of specific dice mechanics would.

To be honest, I think you're better off playing fast and loose with Palladium games. Rather than attempting to define a set of mechanics to limit how a player can manipulate his or her character's powers, award experience point bonuses for thinking outside the box and coming up with a creative application. Make clear at the outset of play that you will do so, and establish that you will be the final word on whether a power may be bent in the desired direction (no arguing). Then be liberal and generous with what a character can really do.

I think Palladium's power write-ups are so specific and crafted without any universal mechanics that any attempt to define a set of rules that allows a PC to push beyond those published limits in a specific fashion will require each power to be revised. I suppose that if you really must apply a die roll to it you could. Like roll d20 plus a bonus equal to the character's level vs 20 (maybe 25 to support the idea that it's an option for experienced characters, not first level schmucks who are just figuring things out) to determine if the PC has the wherewithal to use its power in the unorthodox fashion described by the player (if the GM permits it). I think that would discourage the very creativity it's intended to promote though, by bringing it down to a die roll.

[Razorwing]

The problem with this concept is that with enough creativity, players would be able to develop powers they really don't have as "tricks" with the powers they do... something the game really isn't designed to deal with.

Why take a Flight power when you have an Energy Expulsion power? Should be a simple "trick" to use that power to give yourself enough thrust to overcome gravity, yes? You see rockets do just that after all? The question is... how much damage do you have to do to overcome gravity in this manner? Shouldn't a character with Control Elemental Force: Earth be able to levitate himself on a bolder (actually, just the bolder he happens to be standing on), much like Terra from the DC universe can and thus be able to fly without having an actual "Flight" power? These are just two of the possibilities.

The real key difference with many of the "Stunt" rules in other games is that those games actually allow for characters to gain more powers than what they start with... with stunting acting as both a springboard to those powers and as a cheap way to develop them initially. Palladium isn't like that. Very few Power Categories allow one to increase their power in this manner. Most of the time, what one has is all one gets (since many super powers, especially Major Powers, have a lot of "tricks" they can already do). In fact, only Psychics and Spell Casting characters actually develop new abilities as they gain levels... but are generally balanced by the fact that they have a finite power source to fuel those abilities. For nearly all other characters, the only real boost to their powers they get is greater control of the abilities they have (greater range/damage/etc.) and higher skills (and gaining some new skills).

This is an intentional design element to most of Palladium's games... it is more about what you can do with what you have, using the right skill/ability at a key moment... than it is about gaining more power or just overpowering your foes. Yes, thinking outside the box is a good thing... but not when it gives you powers and abilities you really don't have. Sure, it can be surprising to one's opponent... "I didn't know he could do THAT!... Why didn't someone tell me he could do THAT!!!!!", but such moments are actually surprisingly rare in comics.

[barna10]

The problem with this concept is that with enough creativity, players would be able to develop powers they really don't have as "tricks" with the powers they do... something the game really isn't designed to deal with.

Why take a Flight power when you have an Energy Expulsion power? Should be a simple "trick" to use that power to give yourself enough thrust to overcome gravity, yes? You see rockets do just that after all? The question is... how much damage do you have to do to overcome gravity in this manner? Shouldn't a character with Control Elemental Force: Earth be able to levitate himself on a bolder (actually, just the bolder he happens to be standing on), much like Terra from the DC universe can and thus be able to fly without having an actual "Flight" power? These are just two of the possibilities.

The real key difference with many of the "Stunt" rules in other games is that those games actually allow for characters to gain more powers than what they start with... with stunting acting as both a springboard to those powers and as a cheap way to develop them initially. Palladium isn't like that. Very few Power Categories allow one to increase their power in this manner. Most of the time, what one has is all one gets (since many super powers, especially Major Powers, have a lot of "tricks" they can already do). In fact, only Psychics and Spell Casting characters actually develop new abilities as they gain levels... but are generally balanced by the fact that they have a finite power source to fuel those abilities. For nearly all other characters, the only real boost to their powers they get is greater control of the abilities they have (greater range/damage/etc.) and higher skills (and gaining some new skills).

This is an intentional design element to most of Palladium's games... it is more about what you can do with what you have, using the right skill/ability at a key moment... than it is about gaining more power or just overpowering your foes. Yes, thinking outside the box is a good thing... but not when it gives you powers and abilities you really don't have. Sure, it can be surprising to one's opponent... "I didn't know he could do THAT!... Why didn't someone tell me he could do THAT!!!!!", but such moments are actually surprisingly rare in comics.

This is both accurate, regarding the state of the game, and off the mark at the same time.

First, it's not an "intentional design element" of the game that characters don't gain in power or versatility, it's a flaw the design can't overcome. It's the classic "Is it a bug or a feature" argument. In this case, it's a bug. Basically, when the game was first designed, no one thought about players thinking outside the box, so it wasn't accounted for. Someone's Ego told them, "We've made such a great game with so many options that it will please everyone!". Now this flaw and others are embraced by adoring fans as some sort of intentional genius...

Second, "Super" characters do this ALL THE TIME in media. It's not "rare" as you described. There's not enough characters left in this post for me to even list the names of characters I can think of that "stunted" their powers to do something new. Heck, Professor X's school is a school that teaches one how to POWER STUNT! The current Flash T.V. series is a good example. Just about every episode involves a scene with him coming up with new ways to use his speed: running up walls, running on water, obscuring his features and his voice, and by the end of the season he's going to figure out how to travel in time.

Third, it's not just psychics and mages, but Martial Artists as well that grow in power with experience. Martial Artists, arguably, are the closest thing to supers outside of HU and the N&SS system is built around them learning new things and gaining new powers as they grow in experience. If the game is supposed to be "a thinking man's game" as some have stated, why not give Martial Artists a few maneuvers and powers at level one and be done with it?

Lastly, I think I'm done trying to get back into HU. I'm remembering why I put down the books everytime I make the mistake of thinking this system is a good one. there are too many flaws and too many things that need house-ruled. Also, I'm tired of the writers and players telling me and mine how wrong we are to want a game with options and no boundaries. I don't think I can even count the number of ironic times where K.S. has inserted comments about not allowing something in these games because it might be too powerful when NOTHING in Palladium is balanced. So, I'm out...at least until I forget how frustrating Palladium is a few years from now...

[Glistam]

Mutants and Masterminds had a good system for doing "power stunts," you may find that game more to your liking.

[Nightmask]

Mutants and Masterminds had a good system for doing "power stunts," you may find that game more to your liking.

I imagine he makes use of the classic Marvel Super-Heroes RPG for that, or its successor 4C.

[Nightmask]

I think we're seeing two extreme viewpoints here where things are more in the middle. First off being all RPG are a thinking man's game to some degree, and the idea of power-stunting is one representation of the thinking man finding a creative use of his powers and abilities rather than somehow never being able to use them in a different fashion than how they're written up.

Yes some powers certainly do have the option that creative use would pretty much qualify as adding new powers, like the aforementioned use of the power to control the Earth to gain a flight power by riding around on a chunk of earth, of which that is a very common thing we see with such characters in comics so hardly something unexpected or somehow should be prevented as 'too powerful' or what have you.

Heroes Unlimited is great for certain types of heroic representation, particularly on the lower-power end (relative to what we see in the comics on average), not so great for others (characters that develop an array of powers as power stunts off a single or several base powers). To cover those other types you have to modify it accordingly. So the question is what does one need to do to easily (if possible) represent these types it wasn't built for, in this particular case power stunts.

[Glistam]

In HU you could treat power stunts as learning a new power. Have all characters with powers acquire more powers as they level. The Mutant power category offers two examples of how such a character could progress, by taking either the "Continous Mutation" option or the "Unstable Mutation" options.

[barna10]

It comes down to Palladium being the (unsuccessful) Apple of the gaming industry. Palladium likes to tell the players what they are allowed to want and how they are allowed to play. If you don't play that way, the company and its fans tell you how you're not playing the game right. You're obviously a power gamer if you want to play a powerful character (unless, of course, its one of the several uber-characters Palladium has OK'd).

I'll come back to Heroes Unlimited when you truly can make a decent representation of any character from the comics without having to fudge the rules every time. I want to be able to remake Marvel characters like Magik (mutant with magical powers, and a magical object), Forge (again, mutant with magical powers), Doctor Doom (tech character with magical powers), any of the Marvel Telekinetics (able to lift multiple tons without blowing their whole wad), or even Doctor Strange (no way he has only a few hundred P.P.E. to work with).

I also want a decent structure to the rules, some-sort of equivalency in power amongst all minor and major powers. Some powers are OK, some are too much, others aren't worth wasting a power slot on or the ink to print them.

[Bill]

I guess you can crap on the game and point out how it doesn't work the way you want. We have done a fair amount of that in the Rifts sub forum. It doesn't seem terribly productive to me though. And, after 20 years of watching this company, I can assure you that it's not going to be effective.

Please consider taking a more positive outlook. You could move on to find a game that suits your wants more consistently. Or you can embrace the project-like nature of Palladium's games and start building up fixes that adapt the game to your wants. Either way, I think you'll be happier.

Good luck!

[Ranger]

I allow my players to come up with "Stunts" that they can perform wiht their powers. I usually make them make several control/skill rolls before they get used to doing it with out having to think about it. (for the first 5 times they perform the "stunt" they have negatives to the die roll...a failure means they start over, once it has been completed, they can do it with out "thinking" (rolling with negatives) about it.)

[Razorwing]

Using powers in creative ways to get things done is one thing... using them in creative ways to get abilities that have nothing to do with those powers is something else entirely.

Using the power Control Elemental Force: Earth to fly by levitating a boulder one is standing on goes against everything the power represents. Yes, you can move the earth... even that boulder you are standing on... but earth, stone and rocks don't fly. The closest power that can do this is Earth Empowerment... and even then the tower/tongue of earth one rides remains rooted to the ground. Telekinesis could do this... but it would probably be easier to just use the power on the person on the boulder rather than levitate the boulder with the person on top.

[Nightmask]

Using powers in creative ways to get things done is one thing... using them in creative ways to get abilities that have nothing to do with those powers is something else entirely.

Using the power Control Elemental Force: Earth to fly by levitating a boulder one is standing on goes against everything the power represents. Yes, you can move the earth... even that boulder you are standing on... but earth, stone and rocks don't fly. The closest power that can do this is Earth Empowerment... and even then the tower/tongue of earth one rides remains rooted to the ground. Telekinesis could do this... but it would probably be easier to just use the power on the person on the boulder rather than levitate the boulder with the person on top.

Earth, stone, and rock don't actually move either and given you're talking super-powers it's a flawed argument to go 'well those things don't fly'. If your power lets you move such materials around then you should have the option of learning how to use it to create a flying rock you can ride on. It's quite evident in the super-hero comics that HU is supposed to represent that many of those who can control the Earth can create flying rocks to ride around on, so clearly it IS part of what the power represents.

[eliakon]

Using powers in creative ways to get things done is one thing... using them in creative ways to get abilities that have nothing to do with those powers is something else entirely.

Using the power Control Elemental Force: Earth to fly by levitating a boulder one is standing on goes against everything the power represents. Yes, you can move the earth... even that boulder you are standing on... but earth, stone and rocks don't fly. The closest power that can do this is Earth Empowerment... and even then the tower/tongue of earth one rides remains rooted to the ground. Telekinesis could do this... but it would probably be easier to just use the power on the person on the boulder rather than levitate the boulder with the person on top.

Earth, stone, and rock don't actually move either and given you're talking super-powers it's a flawed argument to go 'well those things don't fly'. If your power lets you move such materials around then you should have the option of learning how to use it to create a flying rock you can ride on. It's quite evident in the super-hero comics that HU is supposed to represent that many of those who can control the Earth can create flying rocks to ride around on, so clearly it IS part of what the power represents.

No its clearly what the power represents in some comics worlds at some times.
Note, this is HU. The goal is to play a game of comic book style heroics. Not perfectly emulate some specific comics. That is why they are set up in ways that break all sorts of comics rules: no 'indestructible power; no always on aura of death; no can not die, la la la power; no I can steal your power/mimic your power, FOREVER, no one is strong enough to pick up TANKS let alone push stellar real state around. blasts get up to be about as dangerous as an infantry rocket.....nothing that is going to wipe out a good sized building let a lone a city.
ALL of which is stock in comics. Thus we can either take from this
1) that they are not meant to be a perfect simulation of comics
2) that the COMICS are the ones at fold
3) its a game about comics bit it is not a comic book game. (subtle point that last, few get it)

[Nightmask]

Using powers in creative ways to get things done is one thing... using them in creative ways to get abilities that have nothing to do with those powers is something else entirely.

Using the power Control Elemental Force: Earth to fly by levitating a boulder one is standing on goes against everything the power represents. Yes, you can move the earth... even that boulder you are standing on... but earth, stone and rocks don't fly. The closest power that can do this is Earth Empowerment... and even then the tower/tongue of earth one rides remains rooted to the ground. Telekinesis could do this... but it would probably be easier to just use the power on the person on the boulder rather than levitate the boulder with the person on top.

Earth, stone, and rock don't actually move either and given you're talking super-powers it's a flawed argument to go 'well those things don't fly'. If your power lets you move such materials around then you should have the option of learning how to use it to create a flying rock you can ride on. It's quite evident in the super-hero comics that HU is supposed to represent that many of those who can control the Earth can create flying rocks to ride around on, so clearly it IS part of what the power represents.

No its clearly what the power represents in some comics worlds at some times.
Note, this is HU. The goal is to play a game of comic book style heroics. Not perfectly emulate some specific comics. That is why they are set up in ways that break all sorts of comics rules: no 'indestructible power; no always on aura of death; no can not die, la la la power; no I can steal your power/mimic your power, FOREVER, no one is strong enough to pick up TANKS let alone push stellar real state around. blasts get up to be about as dangerous as an infantry rocket.....nothing that is going to wipe out a good sized building let a lone a city.
ALL of which is stock in comics. Thus we can either take from this
1) that they are not meant to be a perfect simulation of comics
2) that the COMICS are the ones at fold
3) its a game about comics bit it is not a comic book game. (subtle point that last, few get it)

Except there are indestructible powers, can not die powers, etc. You're also tossing out extremes since often those kinds of things aren't part of the general super-hero experience (Spider-Man doesn't encounter Juggernaut on a regular basis, or the Hulk, or Silver Age Superman for that matter), whereas relatively common powers like Earth control DO often end up having the character develop the power of flight by riding on a rock or other related things depending on the power in question. If an Earth controller can levitate a rock into the air he almost always learns how to ride on it, which is little different than the telekinetic who realizes 'hey if I can make stuff move through the air I can make myself fly too' only it's 'hey if I can make rocks fly through the air why can't I just ride on it?'.

[Glistam]

It comes down to Palladium being the (unsuccessful) Apple of the gaming industry. Palladium likes to tell the players what they are allowed to want and how they are allowed to play. If you don't play that way, the company and its fans tell you how you're not playing the game right. You're obviously a power gamer if you want to play a powerful character (unless, of course, its one of the several uber-characters Palladium has OK'd).

I'll come back to Heroes Unlimited when you truly can make a decent representation of any character from the comics without having to fudge the rules every time. I want to be able to remake Marvel characters like Magik (mutant with magical powers, and a magical object), Forge (again, mutant with magical powers), Doctor Doom (tech character with magical powers), any of the Marvel Telekinetics (able to lift multiple tons without blowing their whole wad), or even Doctor Strange (no way he has only a few hundred P.P.E. to work with).

I also want a decent structure to the rules, some-sort of equivalency in power amongst all minor and major powers. Some powers are OK, some are too much, others aren't worth wasting a power slot on or the ink to print them.

Are you challenging us to convert these characters for you or else you'll leave Heroes Unlimited and Palladium gaming in general? Every character you listed can be made using the game as written. Follow the history of the characters and consider them in their early days. Dr. Doom was an intelligent dabbling sorcerer, Ilyanna started as just a mutant kid, etcetera. All these characters were level 1 once, and you're trying to get them recreated at their later levels of power as "out of the box" level 1 characters. That's not going to work no matter what system you abandon Heroes Unlimited for.

Ilyanna was a mutant who had magical "potential." When she was abducted into Limbo she learned magic and how to call forth her soul sword. That was the equivalent of a game/story event that permanently altered the character.

Dr. Doom was a magical dabbler with high intelligence and inventive aptitude. Right off the bat that's doable in the game as written!

Forge had a mutant ability to build objects - again, doable in the game with the rules as written.

Most Marvel psychics use their powers only in limited or diminished capacity. Why? Certainly I.S.P. conservation could be considered a factor. When they do exert themselves it usually comes with great exhaustion after the fact, requiring rest. Accurately represented in the rules as written.

Dr. Strange and his P.P.E. pool... he's no first level mage. He's built up his power over the years, invokes power from extra-dimensional entities, and in general is doable from his initial days.

The bottom line here is that there is no rule system which can emulate comic characters over their careers perfectly, because the comics themselves aren't constrained by such rules. In Heroes Unlimited nothing stops me from having a story where characters develop like comic characters do. I can constrain myself to the letter of the law, or I can expand my game to allow characters to grow organically. A character who loses an arm may opt for a bionic alternative, or may grow sullen and depressed until they develop into an empowered character, or may seek out mystical cures, or any number of alternate options. The G.M. needs to understand this and be willing to work with it.

[Nightmask]

It comes down to Palladium being the (unsuccessful) Apple of the gaming industry. Palladium likes to tell the players what they are allowed to want and how they are allowed to play. If you don't play that way, the company and its fans tell you how you're not playing the game right. You're obviously a power gamer if you want to play a powerful character (unless, of course, its one of the several uber-characters Palladium has OK'd).

I'll come back to Heroes Unlimited when you truly can make a decent representation of any character from the comics without having to fudge the rules every time. I want to be able to remake Marvel characters like Magik (mutant with magical powers, and a magical object), Forge (again, mutant with magical powers), Doctor Doom (tech character with magical powers), any of the Marvel Telekinetics (able to lift multiple tons without blowing their whole wad), or even Doctor Strange (no way he has only a few hundred P.P.E. to work with).

I also want a decent structure to the rules, some-sort of equivalency in power amongst all minor and major powers. Some powers are OK, some are too much, others aren't worth wasting a power slot on or the ink to print them.

Are you challenging us to convert these characters for you or else you'll leave Heroes Unlimited and Palladium gaming in general? Every character you listed can be made using the game as written. Follow the history of the characters and consider them in their early days. Dr. Doom was an intelligent dabbling sorcerer, Ilyanna started as just a mutant kid, etcetera. All these characters were level 1 once, and you're trying to get them recreated at their later levels of power as "out of the box" level 1 characters. That's not going to work no matter what system you abandon Heroes Unlimited for.

Ilyanna was a mutant who had magical "potential." When she was abducted into Limbo she learned magic and how to call forth her soul sword. That was the equivalent of a game/story event that permanently altered the character.

Dr. Doom was a magical dabbler with high intelligence and inventive aptitude. Right off the bat that's doable in the game as written!

Forge had a mutant ability to build objects - again, doable in the game with the rules as written.

Most Marvel psychics use their powers only in limited or diminished capacity. Why? Certainly I.S.P. conservation could be considered a factor. When they do exert themselves it usually comes with great exhaustion after the fact, requiring rest. Accurately represented in the rules as written.

Dr. Strange and his P.P.E. pool... he's no first level mage. He's built up his power over the years, invokes power from extra-dimensional entities, and in general is doable from his initial days.

The bottom line here is that there is no rule system which can emulate comic characters over their careers perfectly, because the comics themselves aren't constrained by such rules. In Heroes Unlimited nothing stops me from having a story where characters develop like comic characters do. I can constrain myself to the letter of the law, or I can expand my game to allow characters to grow organically. A character who loses an arm may opt for a bionic alternative, or may grow sullen and depressed until they develop into an empowered character, or may seek out mystical cures, or any number of alternate options. The G.M. needs to understand this and be willing to work with it.

i believe the issue is that if you simply go by the rules you can't do those things because you aren't allowed to be both a mutant and a magic-user, or a magic-user/hardware: analytical/power-armor-pilot (and you're ignoring that those characters in general are in those categories 'out of the box' because the rest is backstory, it's how they are shown starting). If you're a mutant you're only ever allowed to be doing things as a mutant not a mutant/power-armor-pilot, if you house-rule to allow it then they are treated as over-powered mega-hero category sorts and given heavy experience penalties for growing.

[Daniel Stoker]

See I'm going to have to disagree there. It might be harder for a mutant to get a hold of the power armor, but if they do there shouldn't be a penalty for that. I've played a psychic alien before who with his engineering skills made gadgets like a hardware specialist. Granted he couldn't do it as well as the Hardware specialist but I was still able to do it and there's no reason that would make him a mega-hero. If a mutant with power armor is going to be to powerful or trivialize things in your game then it's up to you as the GM to either rework the power levels or keep the character from getting and explain to the player why that's not going to fly in your game.


Daniel Stoker

[Nightmask]

See I'm going to have to disagree there. It might be harder for a mutant to get a hold of the power armor, but if they do there shouldn't be a penalty for that. I've played a psychic alien before who with his engineering skills made gadgets like a hardware specialist. Granted he couldn't do it as well as the Hardware specialist but I was still able to do it and there's no reason that would make him a mega-hero. If a mutant with power armor is going to be to powerful or trivialize things in your game then it's up to you as the GM to either rework the power levels or keep the character from getting and explain to the player why that's not going to fly in your game.


Daniel Stoker

Except the rules have it that there are supposed to be penalties for someone that straddles two power categories, the only iffy spot is the one you mention, since anyone with the appropriate skills should be able to make anything a Hardware character can but just have much lower odds of succeeding due to the skill limits non-hardware characters have. Otherwise though the game discourages mixing power categories even in a particularly appropriate spot like a hardware/robot pilot. Yes one can simply ignore that if they're the the GM and uninterested in such restrictions but one can hardly tell the GM 'no I'm going to play this mutant/wizard' and expect to get away with it.

[Daniel Stoker]

Except the rules have it that there are supposed to be penalties for someone that straddles two power categories, the only iffy spot is the one you mention, since anyone with the appropriate skills should be able to make anything a Hardware character can but just have much lower odds of succeeding due to the skill limits non-hardware characters have. Otherwise though the game discourages mixing power categories even in a particularly appropriate spot like a hardware/robot pilot. Yes one can simply ignore that if they're the the GM and uninterested in such restrictions but one can hardly tell the GM 'no I'm going to play this mutant/wizard' and expect to get away with it.

Well I did have a penalty, my skills were capped at 98% while the Hardware character can and do go over 100% so I was never going to be as good as them. If I spend my skills in engineering why shouldn’t I be able to invent and engineer? I may take years to make a super robot but if I’ve got those skills why would I not be able to use them?


Daniel Stoker

[Glistam]

See I'm going to have to disagree there. It might be harder for a mutant to get a hold of the power armor, but if they do there shouldn't be a penalty for that. I've played a psychic alien before who with his engineering skills made gadgets like a hardware specialist. Granted he couldn't do it as well as the Hardware specialist but I was still able to do it and there's no reason that would make him a mega-hero. If a mutant with power armor is going to be to powerful or trivialize things in your game then it's up to you as the GM to either rework the power levels or keep the character from getting and explain to the player why that's not going to fly in your game.


Daniel Stoker

Except the rules have it that there are supposed to be penalties for someone that straddles two power categories, the only iffy spot is the one you mention, since anyone with the appropriate skills should be able to make anything a Hardware character can but just have much lower odds of succeeding due to the skill limits non-hardware characters have. Otherwise though the game discourages mixing power categories even in a particularly appropriate spot like a hardware/robot pilot. Yes one can simply ignore that if they're the the GM and uninterested in such restrictions but one can hardly tell the GM 'no I'm going to play this mutant/wizard' and expect to get away with it.

Can you give me the page number where Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition states there are "supposed to be penalties for someone that straddles two power categories"?

The Hardware: Analytical character states right in the budget roll section that a good enough roll could be high enough to allow for the building of a modest exoskeleton, as per the Robotics category.

The Powers Unlimited 2 category of Super-Invention actually allows for the character to be one of the Hardware power categories, in addition to having the super invention(s).

In neither of these sections are penalties brought up.

[Razorwing]

Gaining things like an Exoskeleton/Powersuit/Armor or a magical weapon is one thing... but those items in general won't be on the same level as if the character had them at the beginning (Robotics/ Hardware or Mystic Weapon power category). Most of their abilities and powers will come from their original class... while such equipment will be seen as supplementary at best.

The character Magik is still at her core a mutant... with the ability to create portals. Her ability to summon a Soul Sword is (and has always been) supplementary to that. She has learned, lost and regained this ability a number of times over the course of the character's development... but her mutant nature hasn't changed.

Now then, should a mutant character in HU be able to find a magical sword? Of course... but it probably won't be nearly as powerful as the weapons generated for the Mystic Weapon class. Having a character that straddles two power categories (or at least appears to) is different from creating a character that combines both categories. An Analytical Genius who spends his budget building an exoskeletal battle armor may appear to combine both the Hardware and Robotics categories, but in practical cases he doesn't. The armor isn't likely as powerful as one that is built as a Robotics character from the beginning... and it likely takes up most of his budget (reducing the other inventions/gadgets he would have to a minimum)... meaning he used up most of his resources for this one item.

By the same token... not all magical weapons found will make one a Mystic Weapon wielder. Just because it is a magic weapon doesn't mean he is of the Mystic Weapon power category. Some weapons are just more powerful than others... Magik's soul sword isn't on the same level as Thor's Mjolnir... the latter of which would be equivalent to the mystic weapons of the Mystic Weapon power category (in that it can empower anyone it deems worthy of Thor's Power). The soul sword is still a powerful magic weapon... but that alone doesn't mean Magic would belong to both the Mutant and Enchanted Weapon power categories.

However, this combining and straddling of power categories isn't really "stunting" powers to gain new tricks and abilities. Power stunting would be something like using Control Elemental Force: Fire to absorb so much of a target's heat that it is incased in Ice (created from water in the air condensating on the individual and freezing due to the lack of heat). While this would be a cool trick... it goes against the nature of what the power is about... fire and heat... not making ice. Yes, it may be a logical extrapolation of what one can do... namely absorbing heat... but controlling fire isn't the same as making ice.

[NMI]

A post was removed from this thread.
Let's keep our comments constructive and not make them personal.

[Nightmask]

See I'm going to have to disagree there. It might be harder for a mutant to get a hold of the power armor, but if they do there shouldn't be a penalty for that. I've played a psychic alien before who with his engineering skills made gadgets like a hardware specialist. Granted he couldn't do it as well as the Hardware specialist but I was still able to do it and there's no reason that would make him a mega-hero. If a mutant with power armor is going to be to powerful or trivialize things in your game then it's up to you as the GM to either rework the power levels or keep the character from getting and explain to the player why that's not going to fly in your game.


Daniel Stoker

Except the rules have it that there are supposed to be penalties for someone that straddles two power categories, the only iffy spot is the one you mention, since anyone with the appropriate skills should be able to make anything a Hardware character can but just have much lower odds of succeeding due to the skill limits non-hardware characters have. Otherwise though the game discourages mixing power categories even in a particularly appropriate spot like a hardware/robot pilot. Yes one can simply ignore that if they're the the GM and uninterested in such restrictions but one can hardly tell the GM 'no I'm going to play this mutant/wizard' and expect to get away with it.

Can you give me the page number where Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition states there are "supposed to be penalties for someone that straddles two power categories"?

The Hardware: Analytical character states right in the budget roll section that a good enough roll could be high enough to allow for the building of a modest exoskeleton, as per the Robotics category.

The Powers Unlimited 2 category of Super-Invention actually allows for the character to be one of the Hardware power categories, in addition to having the super invention(s).

In neither of these sections are penalties brought up.

You're pointing to exceptions and trying to make them out as if they're a rule, and resulting to the 'give me a page number' fallacy for something you know doesn't exist since the game is explicitly written around someone always remaining in the power category they start with so naturally they don't have a page where it gives rules regarding combining power categories because they don't allow it per the rules. What we see regarding that is mainly in errata format and 'well we know people want to do things like this so here's a suggestion'.

[Nightmask]

Gaining things like an Exoskeleton/Powersuit/Armor or a magical weapon is one thing... but those items in general won't be on the same level as if the character had them at the beginning (Robotics/ Hardware or Mystic Weapon power category). Most of their abilities and powers will come from their original class... while such equipment will be seen as supplementary at best.

The character Magik is still at her core a mutant... with the ability to create portals. Her ability to summon a Soul Sword is (and has always been) supplementary to that. She has learned, lost and regained this ability a number of times over the course of the character's development... but her mutant nature hasn't changed.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that she's gained and lost her abilty to create her soulsword so frequently, certainly at least into the 90s and up until her death from the Legacy Virus she never lost the ability to summon her soul sword (which given it was made from a piece of her soul is hardly a 'supplementary' thing anymore than a Cosmo-Knight's Cosmic Weapon is, it's an inherent part of her).

Now then, should a mutant character in HU be able to find a magical sword? Of course... but it probably won't be nearly as powerful as the weapons generated for the Mystic Weapon class. Having a character that straddles two power categories (or at least appears to) is different from creating a character that combines both categories. An Analytical Genius who spends his budget building an exoskeletal battle armor may appear to combine both the Hardware and Robotics categories, but in practical cases he doesn't. The armor isn't likely as powerful as one that is built as a Robotics character from the beginning... and it likely takes up most of his budget (reducing the other inventions/gadgets he would have to a minimum)... meaning he used up most of his resources for this one item.

By the same token... not all magical weapons found will make one a Mystic Weapon wielder. Just because it is a magic weapon doesn't mean he is of the Mystic Weapon power category. Some weapons are just more powerful than others... Magik's soul sword isn't on the same level as Thor's Mjolnir... the latter of which would be equivalent to the mystic weapons of the Mystic Weapon power category (in that it can empower anyone it deems worthy of Thor's Power). The soul sword is still a powerful magic weapon... but that alone doesn't mean Magic would belong to both the Mutant and Enchanted Weapon power categories.

Actually yes, yes it would. How powerful a particular weapon is has nothing to do with whether or not you're an Enchanted Weapon wielder (going by your argument if some Joe off the street had her weapon in spite of what it provided to him including being an enchanted weapon he wouldn't fit into any category since you're defining an arbitrary point that a weapon has to be Mjolnir level to qualify as an Enchanted Weapon). If you're making use of an Enchanted weapon logically that makes you an Enchanted Weapon wielder even if you're also a mutant.

However, this combining and straddling of power categories isn't really "stunting" powers to gain new tricks and abilities. Power stunting would be something like using Control Elemental Force: Fire to absorb so much of a target's heat that it is incased in Ice (created from water in the air condensating on the individual and freezing due to the lack of heat). While this would be a cool trick... it goes against the nature of what the power is about... fire and heat... not making ice. Yes, it may be a logical extrapolation of what one can do... namely absorbing heat... but controlling fire isn't the same as making ice.

Going against what you consider the nature of the power doesn't mean it actually is, and logical extrapolations are then certainly within the nature of the power even if it takes practice (i.e. power stunting) to make this happen. The Human Torch has actually generated cold to the point of producing ice on several occasions by exploiting his ability to absorb heat, and Iceman has used his ability to produce ice to dehydrate a room by drawing out all the moisture in it. They engaged in stunts off their powers that were logical extrapolations of them even if someone might think it against their nature even though it actually wasn't.

[eliakon]

However, this combining and straddling of power categories isn't really "stunting" powers to gain new tricks and abilities. Power stunting would be something like using Control Elemental Force: Fire to absorb so much of a target's heat that it is incased in Ice (created from water in the air condensating on the individual and freezing due to the lack of heat). While this would be a cool trick... it goes against the nature of what the power is about... fire and heat... not making ice. Yes, it may be a logical extrapolation of what one can do... namely absorbing heat... but controlling fire isn't the same as making ice.

Going against what you consider the nature of the power doesn't mean it actually is, and logical extrapolations are then certainly within the nature of the power even if it takes practice (i.e. power stunting) to make this happen. The Human Torch has actually generated cold to the point of producing ice on several occasions by exploiting his ability to absorb heat, and Iceman has used his ability to produce ice to dehydrate a room by drawing out all the moisture in it. They engaged in stunts off their powers that were logical extrapolations of them even if someone might think it against their nature even though it actually wasn't.

I think that those ARE examples of his point. The idea that you can use a 'power stunt' to allow a person with a fire power to get an ice power may work okay in a game where you have various levels of powers, and can buy more (like say....marvel where you can have lower levels of sub powers) but in Palladium that's not just a 'stunt' that's effectively letting a person get access to additional full powers. Which starts to strain the system, and quickly. Even if you limit them to only being equivalent to minor powers....suddenly your talking about characters gaining the equivalent of a full power category with just a little training....and either you put an artificial limit on the number of stunts (which then defeats the original 'but I can learn to use my power' because now your saying you can only learn to use it so much and no further) or you have no limits and allow people to, effectively, add unlimited numbers of super abilities to their characters.
'Stunts' work fine in a point buy system where you have a cost metric to gauge the learning process. They also work best where the powers are variable in power level. Palladium is not that way, its binary either you can use a power or you cant...you don't have it in levels so you can't just get 'a little' of a power.

[Nightmask]

However, this combining and straddling of power categories isn't really "stunting" powers to gain new tricks and abilities. Power stunting would be something like using Control Elemental Force: Fire to absorb so much of a target's heat that it is incased in Ice (created from water in the air condensating on the individual and freezing due to the lack of heat). While this would be a cool trick... it goes against the nature of what the power is about... fire and heat... not making ice. Yes, it may be a logical extrapolation of what one can do... namely absorbing heat... but controlling fire isn't the same as making ice.

Going against what you consider the nature of the power doesn't mean it actually is, and logical extrapolations are then certainly within the nature of the power even if it takes practice (i.e. power stunting) to make this happen. The Human Torch has actually generated cold to the point of producing ice on several occasions by exploiting his ability to absorb heat, and Iceman has used his ability to produce ice to dehydrate a room by drawing out all the moisture in it. They engaged in stunts off their powers that were logical extrapolations of them even if someone might think it against their nature even though it actually wasn't.

I think that those ARE examples of his point. The idea that you can use a 'power stunt' to allow a person with a fire power to get an ice power may work okay in a game where you have various levels of powers, and can buy more (like say....marvel where you can have lower levels of sub powers) but in Palladium that's not just a 'stunt' that's effectively letting a person get access to additional full powers. Which starts to strain the system, and quickly. Even if you limit them to only being equivalent to minor powers....suddenly your talking about characters gaining the equivalent of a full power category with just a little training....and either you put an artificial limit on the number of stunts (which then defeats the original 'but I can learn to use my power' because now your saying you can only learn to use it so much and no further) or you have no limits and allow people to, effectively, add unlimited numbers of super abilities to their characters.
'Stunts' work fine in a point buy system where you have a cost metric to gauge the learning process. They also work best where the powers are variable in power level. Palladium is not that way, its binary either you can use a power or you cant...you don't have it in levels so you can't just get 'a little' of a power.

Many powers are basically made up of other minor powers (Healing Factor alone has a number of features that taken separately would count up to 3-5 other minor powers) and Major powers often come with a raft of other powers in minor or major format, so it's not like the guy able to control Earth is so egregious by developing a 'fly on rock' stunt (remember that without other powers or equipment he's not going to be flying at hundreds of miles an hour, and would splat pretty nicely if he rammed into something). At least some powers (particularly those like the Energy Expulsion powers) DO also come in levels, you start with a little power (generally 3d6 damage) and gain more of the power over time.

[eliakon]

However, this combining and straddling of power categories isn't really "stunting" powers to gain new tricks and abilities. Power stunting would be something like using Control Elemental Force: Fire to absorb so much of a target's heat that it is incased in Ice (created from water in the air condensating on the individual and freezing due to the lack of heat). While this would be a cool trick... it goes against the nature of what the power is about... fire and heat... not making ice. Yes, it may be a logical extrapolation of what one can do... namely absorbing heat... but controlling fire isn't the same as making ice.

Going against what you consider the nature of the power doesn't mean it actually is, and logical extrapolations are then certainly within the nature of the power even if it takes practice (i.e. power stunting) to make this happen. The Human Torch has actually generated cold to the point of producing ice on several occasions by exploiting his ability to absorb heat, and Iceman has used his ability to produce ice to dehydrate a room by drawing out all the moisture in it. They engaged in stunts off their powers that were logical extrapolations of them even if someone might think it against their nature even though it actually wasn't.

I think that those ARE examples of his point. The idea that you can use a 'power stunt' to allow a person with a fire power to get an ice power may work okay in a game where you have various levels of powers, and can buy more (like say....marvel where you can have lower levels of sub powers) but in Palladium that's not just a 'stunt' that's effectively letting a person get access to additional full powers. Which starts to strain the system, and quickly. Even if you limit them to only being equivalent to minor powers....suddenly your talking about characters gaining the equivalent of a full power category with just a little training....and either you put an artificial limit on the number of stunts (which then defeats the original 'but I can learn to use my power' because now your saying you can only learn to use it so much and no further) or you have no limits and allow people to, effectively, add unlimited numbers of super abilities to their characters.
'Stunts' work fine in a point buy system where you have a cost metric to gauge the learning process. They also work best where the powers are variable in power level. Palladium is not that way, its binary either you can use a power or you cant...you don't have it in levels so you can't just get 'a little' of a power.

Many powers are basically made up of other minor powers (Healing Factor alone has a number of features that taken separately would count up to 3-5 other minor powers) and Major powers often come with a raft of other powers in minor or major format, so it's not like the guy able to control Earth is so egregious by developing a 'fly on rock' stunt (remember that without other powers or equipment he's not going to be flying at hundreds of miles an hour, and would splat pretty nicely if he rammed into something). At least some powers (particularly those like the Energy Expulsion powers) DO also come in levels, you start with a little power (generally 3d6 damage) and gain more of the power over time.

My point still stands. Stunts are giving a person new powers. And those levels are not individual. You don't have 'level 2 fire expulsion, and level 7 magnet power' you have 'level 7 super powers' (at least in the RAW, if you want to add a new dimension of having each powers level be tracked separately that's a whole different topic)
So yes, saying that I can use my earth power to fly a rock is saying that I can get, for free, a new minor power (flight). If I then add the stunt "I can cause the rocks to explode" I just got shrapnel. The stunt of <fill in stunt here> is yet another power. just one more stunt and my 'just common sense little tricks' are now equal to some characters entire pool of starting powers. Or put another way, in game terms I have just managed to effectively dual class, because I now have as many bonus super powers as a full power category (4 minor). And if I keep learning? And then I develop stunts on the stunts?
Like I said, the idea breaks the system as written. Which is why its not in use. There is no way to model trainable super powers with out running into people having dozens of super powers. Which, under the rules would all function at their level.
Power Stunts work great in a point buy system (like Champions, Marvel, DC, Gurps, etc.. It doesn't work so well in a Flat Buy system like Palladium, or even in a modular buy system like Tri-Stat)
Or do you have a way to control 'power proliferation'? (And yes this IS a problem in the comics. Many comic book characters have, over the years demonstrated dozens, if not hundreds of 'power stunts' which would, in many games terms make them unplayable expensive. This is glossed over by only having their 'most common' ones be used in their write ups, but if the argument is that the game doesn't replicate the comics....even the Marvel and DC games don't fully replicate the comics they are based on.)

[Nightmask]

However, this combining and straddling of power categories isn't really "stunting" powers to gain new tricks and abilities. Power stunting would be something like using Control Elemental Force: Fire to absorb so much of a target's heat that it is incased in Ice (created from water in the air condensating on the individual and freezing due to the lack of heat). While this would be a cool trick... it goes against the nature of what the power is about... fire and heat... not making ice. Yes, it may be a logical extrapolation of what one can do... namely absorbing heat... but controlling fire isn't the same as making ice.

Going against what you consider the nature of the power doesn't mean it actually is, and logical extrapolations are then certainly within the nature of the power even if it takes practice (i.e. power stunting) to make this happen. The Human Torch has actually generated cold to the point of producing ice on several occasions by exploiting his ability to absorb heat, and Iceman has used his ability to produce ice to dehydrate a room by drawing out all the moisture in it. They engaged in stunts off their powers that were logical extrapolations of them even if someone might think it against their nature even though it actually wasn't.

I think that those ARE examples of his point. The idea that you can use a 'power stunt' to allow a person with a fire power to get an ice power may work okay in a game where you have various levels of powers, and can buy more (like say....marvel where you can have lower levels of sub powers) but in Palladium that's not just a 'stunt' that's effectively letting a person get access to additional full powers. Which starts to strain the system, and quickly. Even if you limit them to only being equivalent to minor powers....suddenly your talking about characters gaining the equivalent of a full power category with just a little training....and either you put an artificial limit on the number of stunts (which then defeats the original 'but I can learn to use my power' because now your saying you can only learn to use it so much and no further) or you have no limits and allow people to, effectively, add unlimited numbers of super abilities to their characters.
'Stunts' work fine in a point buy system where you have a cost metric to gauge the learning process. They also work best where the powers are variable in power level. Palladium is not that way, its binary either you can use a power or you cant...you don't have it in levels so you can't just get 'a little' of a power.

Many powers are basically made up of other minor powers (Healing Factor alone has a number of features that taken separately would count up to 3-5 other minor powers) and Major powers often come with a raft of other powers in minor or major format, so it's not like the guy able to control Earth is so egregious by developing a 'fly on rock' stunt (remember that without other powers or equipment he's not going to be flying at hundreds of miles an hour, and would splat pretty nicely if he rammed into something). At least some powers (particularly those like the Energy Expulsion powers) DO also come in levels, you start with a little power (generally 3d6 damage) and gain more of the power over time.

My point still stands. Stunts are giving a person new powers. And those levels are not individual. You don't have 'level 2 fire expulsion, and level 7 magnet power' you have 'level 7 super powers' (at least in the RAW, if you want to add a new dimension of having each powers level be tracked separately that's a whole different topic)
So yes, saying that I can use my earth power to fly a rock is saying that I can get, for free, a new minor power (flight). If I then add the stunt "I can cause the rocks to explode" I just got shrapnel. The stunt of <fill in stunt here> is yet another power. just one more stunt and my 'just common sense little tricks' are now equal to some characters entire pool of starting powers. Or put another way, in game terms I have just managed to effectively dual class, because I now have as many bonus super powers as a full power category (4 minor). And if I keep learning? And then I develop stunts on the stunts?
Like I said, the idea breaks the system as written. Which is why its not in use. There is no way to model trainable super powers with out running into people having dozens of super powers. Which, under the rules would all function at their level.
Power Stunts work great in a point buy system (like Champions, Marvel, DC, Gurps, etc.. It doesn't work so well in a Flat Buy system like Palladium, or even in a modular buy system like Tri-Stat)
Or do you have a way to control 'power proliferation'? (And yes this IS a problem in the comics. Many comic book characters have, over the years demonstrated dozens, if not hundreds of 'power stunts' which would, in many games terms make them unplayable expensive. This is glossed over by only having their 'most common' ones be used in their write ups, but if the argument is that the game doesn't replicate the comics....even the Marvel and DC games don't fully replicate the comics they are based on.)

Power stunts don't give new powers they give new uses for an existing power, they aren't free powers because you've already paid so to speak for them having that original power. You just had to figure out how to make it happen.

Really, the idea doesn't break the HU system and doesn't require a point buy system in order to work with it. It just needs some rules or guidelines in place to deal with situations where players are trying to work their powers out of the box into new areas.

[Glistam]

I told my players that every three levels, when they have the opportunity to gain new skills, we can revisit things about their powers they may want to adjust or change. Unhappy with a power and want to chose a different one? Want to add an extra one? We R.P. the build-up to this at least a game or two ahead of time and then start making adjustments that we mutually agree upon for the character going forward. And there is no published Palladium rule for doing this, it's just how I've decided to allow the characters some freedom to grow and evolve in my game.

[Razorwing]

Have you actually read the history of the Magik character?

Here's the link to the Wikipedia write-up on her. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magik_(comics)

She has given up her soulsword to prevent a demonic invasion of Earth... the sword was afterwards claimed by a different character who became the ruler of Limbo. After the death of the original Magik, a demonic clone was created who tried to make a new soulsword (but only manages to create a souldagger). She eventually finds and reclaims the orginal soulsword. The souldagger is later destroyed/absorbed into a bloodstone that was removed to stop an invasion of Elder Gods.

As for magic weapons... the weapons used with the Enchanted Weapon category are of a different level of power than a lot of other magical weapons. These weapons are the equivalent of Greatest Rune Weapons... most have an alignment... nearly all choose a wielder (and often discourage their use by someone the feel is unworthy... sometimes lethally). Thor's Hammer in the Marvel Universe displays these qualities... as do many comic versions of the Excalibur sword. This doesn't mean that all of these weapons are the equivalent of these legendary weapons... only that the comic versions have qualities like these.

However, not all magical weapons are of this level of power. The enchanted weapons of the Mystic Kuznya can be very powerful... but not on the same level as these. Some of the Artifacts of the Lost race (from Nightbane) would be the equivalent... especially the Greatest Artifacts used by Sword Bearers... but the Lesser Artifacts are not.

Does this mean that a mutant that picks up a simple enchanted blade who's only real power is to glow will have a weapon that now provides him with all the bonuses of the Enchanted Weapon category? Of course not... the weapon's only enchantment is to glow... it won't give him any of the other abilities common to Enchanted Weapon wielders (+1d6x10 SDC, resistance to fire/cold, +3 vs. magic, see the invisible, transformation into a more idealized form, or provide superpowers/magic and the 6 weapon abilities). All he has is a weapon that can glow magically.

Not all magic weapons can bestow the powers of the Enchanted Weapon category... only the rarest and most powerful of weapons can do this. Most are magic weapons are merely enchanted with lesser magic... their powers intrinsic to their design.

As for the "nature" of powers... it really isn't what I consider the nature of the power... but what the game does. Heroes unlimited already provides their powers with a number of tricks. These are the general limits of what they can accomplish. Someone with APS: Fire can only do that... they can not learn to control their power in such a way to give them the equivalent of Ice-related powers. There is a point where a logical extrapolation of a power goes too far... absorbing heat with CEF: Fire is one thing... using that ability to create ice by robbing an object of so much heat that water condenses and turns into ice is another entirely.

In Palladium games... what powers are capable of is already defined. Using those abilities in creative ways to do things is where thinking outside the box comes in. It isn't about using these powers in such a way that I now have powers I didn't have before (using Fire powers to effectively create Ice powers), but rather using them in ways that accomplish the needed task. Rather than using Fire powers to create ice and put out a massive fire... one could use their fire powers to create a fire break... effectively robbing the fire of fuel to keep burning. Why levitate a simple boulder with you on it when creating a wave of earth can move you just as fast (and keeps more in theme with the ability)... or grow a tower of earth to let you reach a great height.

Century Station and Gramarcy Island provided a lot of unique characters that were able to combine their powers in creative ways... without actually breaking the rules or developing powers beyond the abilities provided. Kelvin can use both APS: Fire and Ice at the same time (often one half of his body is fire, the other half Ice). Mire can do the same with APS: Stone and Water, but in this case he is more mud than either stone or water (this was before the new APS powers in PU 1 and 2 were available). Figuring out just how one's powers interact with each other in addition to their individual abilities is just as outside thinking as using those abilities in other creative ways.

Stunting should be more about learning how to use what one knows to accomplish a feat... rather than how to use one's abilities to simulate a power one doesn't have. If you don't have flight, you shouldn't be able to use your powers to simulate that power any more than using them to simulate a healing factor you don't have (cauterizing wounds, making an ideal temperature to encourage healing/heating up cells to give them more energy to increase their rate of regeneration, etc.). There are plenty of ways to use the existing abilities powers provide without "stunting" entirely new powers.

As for there being "no published rules for changing powers", the Trauma induced change option for Unstable mutant powers does offer a small guideline for a possible reason for such alterations (gaining a new level of experience/nearly dies). Not a rule per say... but a guideline that offers some characters a reason for changing.

The simple fact is that most classes in Palladium's books are not progressive classes per say. Most have all their abilities right from day 1... only their skills and experience with their powers continue to advance. One way that I have helped players feel their characters are growing with experience is (with their agreement), limit the number of sub-abilities they have access to at the start, then they gain those additional abilities as they level up... representing their growing mastery over their powers.

For example, a Player with APS: Ice started with just the ability to transform into ice and the Other abilities/bonuses of the power (impervious to cold, estimate temperature, increased strength, SDC and AR in ice form, etc.). As the character gained levels, he learned how to create snow, hurl that snow as snowballs, create ice shards and Ice walls, encase things in ice and all the other sub-powers. The player also learned how to use these abilities very creatively... not by developing powers outside the abilities the power provides, but using those powers to accomplish extraordinary feats. One example was creating a large fluffy pile of snow to act as sort of an air bag for NPCs to jump out of a high building window... and an ice slide to catch a falling person (making it so that his falling momentum was transferred into a lateral motion that allowed the individual to come to a slow stop, preventing what would have been a lethal fall otherwise). The character never needed to learn how to fly... he could move fast by effectively skating (freezing the ground under his feet just enough to reduce friction to effortlessly move at high speeds without tiring). He didn't need to learn how to use his ice powers to create fire or other implausible (though logical) extrapolations of his powers.

[Nightmask]

Have you actually read the history of the Magik character?

Here's the link to the Wikipedia write-up on her. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magik_(comics)

She has given up her soulsword to prevent a demonic invasion of Earth... the sword was afterwards claimed by a different character who became the ruler of Limbo. After the death of the original Magik, a demonic clone was created who tried to make a new soulsword (but only manages to create a souldagger). She eventually finds and reclaims the orginal soulsword. The souldagger is later destroyed/absorbed into a bloodstone that was removed to stop an invasion of Elder Gods.

I've read the actual comics, at least up until her death in the 90s from the Legacy Virus. So yes I know the history of the character, from her as a child ending up in limbo, learning magic from an alternate timeline version of Storm, creating the Soulsword from her own essence and it remaining with her until during Inferno when she used it to end things it ended up outside the headquarters of Excaliber due to her link with Kitty Pride. It ended up in the hands of Doom and Darkoth but it was never just some minor add-on to Magik it was just as much a part of her as her Stepping Discs and magical powers.

As for magic weapons... the weapons used with the Enchanted Weapon category are of a different level of power than a lot of other magical weapons. These weapons are the equivalent of Greatest Rune Weapons... most have an alignment... nearly all choose a wielder (and often discourage their use by someone the feel is unworthy... sometimes lethally). Thor's Hammer in the Marvel Universe displays these qualities... as do many comic versions of the Excalibur sword. This doesn't mean that all of these weapons are the equivalent of these legendary weapons... only that the comic versions have qualities like these.

However, not all magical weapons are of this level of power. The enchanted weapons of the Mystic Kuznya can be very powerful... but not on the same level as these. Some of the Artifacts of the Lost race (from Nightbane) would be the equivalent... especially the Greatest Artifacts used by Sword Bearers... but the Lesser Artifacts are not.

Does this mean that a mutant that picks up a simple enchanted blade who's only real power is to glow will have a weapon that now provides him with all the bonuses of the Enchanted Weapon category? Of course not... the weapon's only enchantment is to glow... it won't give him any of the other abilities common to Enchanted Weapon wielders (+1d6x10 SDC, resistance to fire/cold, +3 vs. magic, see the invisible, transformation into a more idealized form, or provide superpowers/magic and the 6 weapon abilities). All he has is a weapon that can glow magically.

Not all magic weapons can bestow the powers of the Enchanted Weapon category... only the rarest and most powerful of weapons can do this. Most are magic weapons are merely enchanted with lesser magic... their powers intrinsic to their design.

As for the "nature" of powers... it really isn't what I consider the nature of the power... but what the game does. Heroes unlimited already provides their powers with a number of tricks. These are the general limits of what they can accomplish. Someone with APS: Fire can only do that... they can not learn to control their power in such a way to give them the equivalent of Ice-related powers. There is a point where a logical extrapolation of a power goes too far... absorbing heat with CEF: Fire is one thing... using that ability to create ice by robbing an object of so much heat that water condenses and turns into ice is another entirely.

In Palladium games... what powers are capable of is already defined. Using those abilities in creative ways to do things is where thinking outside the box comes in. It isn't about using these powers in such a way that I now have powers I didn't have before (using Fire powers to effectively create Ice powers), but rather using them in ways that accomplish the needed task. Rather than using Fire powers to create ice and put out a massive fire... one could use their fire powers to create a fire break... effectively robbing the fire of fuel to keep burning. Why levitate a simple boulder with you on it when creating a wave of earth can move you just as fast (and keeps more in theme with the ability)... or grow a tower of earth to let you reach a great height.

Century Station and Gramarcy Island provided a lot of unique characters that were able to combine their powers in creative ways... without actually breaking the rules or developing powers beyond the abilities provided. Kelvin can use both APS: Fire and Ice at the same time (often one half of his body is fire, the other half Ice). Mire can do the same with APS: Stone and Water, but in this case he is more mud than either stone or water (this was before the new APS powers in PU 1 and 2 were available). Figuring out just how one's powers interact with each other in addition to their individual abilities is just as outside thinking as using those abilities in other creative ways.

Stunting should be more about learning how to use what one knows to accomplish a feat... rather than how to use one's abilities to simulate a power one doesn't have. If you don't have flight, you shouldn't be able to use your powers to simulate that power any more than using them to simulate a healing factor you don't have (cauterizing wounds, making an ideal temperature to encourage healing/heating up cells to give them more energy to increase their rate of regeneration, etc.). There are plenty of ways to use the existing abilities powers provide without "stunting" entirely new powers.

That 'should be' is what's at issue here, what you think they 'should be' able to do and ignoring that those things you think shouldn't be part of what they can do actually ARE part of what they should be able to learn to do. You're too wrapped up in 'Oh God he can't possibly be allowed to use it to do something that's the same as another power that would be wrong!' to see that they are possible options. So yes if you don't have flight you should be able to simulate then (just because some powers explicitly list simulating flight with them by no means should mean no other power that could be used to do so shouldn't be allowed to).

As for there being "no published rules for changing powers", the Trauma induced change option for Unstable mutant powers does offer a small guideline for a possible reason for such alterations (gaining a new level of experience/nearly dies). Not a rule per say... but a guideline that offers some characters a reason for changing.

The simple fact is that most classes in Palladium's books are not progressive classes per say. Most have all their abilities right from day 1... only their skills and experience with their powers continue to advance. One way that I have helped players feel their characters are growing with experience is (with their agreement), limit the number of sub-abilities they have access to at the start, then they gain those additional abilities as they level up... representing their growing mastery over their powers.

For example, a Player with APS: Ice started with just the ability to transform into ice and the Other abilities/bonuses of the power (impervious to cold, estimate temperature, increased strength, SDC and AR in ice form, etc.). As the character gained levels, he learned how to create snow, hurl that snow as snowballs, create ice shards and Ice walls, encase things in ice and all the other sub-powers. The player also learned how to use these abilities very creatively... not by developing powers outside the abilities the power provides, but using those powers to accomplish extraordinary feats. One example was creating a large fluffy pile of snow to act as sort of an air bag for NPCs to jump out of a high building window... and an ice slide to catch a falling person (making it so that his falling momentum was transferred into a lateral motion that allowed the individual to come to a slow stop, preventing what would have been a lethal fall otherwise). The character never needed to learn how to fly... he could move fast by effectively skating (freezing the ground under his feet just enough to reduce friction to effortlessly move at high speeds without tiring). He didn't need to learn how to use his ice powers to create fire or other implausible (though logical) extrapolations of his powers.

Of which none of that means the guy with Earth control powers shouldn't be able to power stunt flying around on a rock, it's not some horrible thing for him to do that. Really, it's not. Or anyone else develop power stunts off of their powers that work with that power, because they aren't that implausible in the end when you're talking super-heroes and super-powers.

[Razorwing]

Where do you draw the line?

You have a character with CEF: Earth who can now fly (without actually having any of the Flight Powers) by levitating Earth. How about letting him use this power to simulate the abilities of Earth Possession too (Limbs of Earth, Creating Golems) or even Earth Empowerment (such as drawing upon the strength of the earth when standing on solid ground). Now with just one Major Power the character has the abilities of 2 additional Major and 2 Minor powers in addition to the other powers he may already have (the latter two at least stick to the theme of CEF: Earth)... all without actually having any of those other powers.

You could even develop more outrageous connections using these... by using CEF: Earth to mimic the ability to draw upon the Earth's Strength... drawing on the healing energies of the earth isn't too much of a long shot... and so he now can have Healing Factor. Earth and Stone shouldn't really pose much of an obstacle to this character and allow him to pass through it as if he had Intangibility. Using an example from Season 3 of Avatar (actually, late 2nd season, but more fully utilized in Season 3), metal is basically stone and earth refined and purified, allowing him to influence that as if he had the Metal Manipulation power. So now we have a character with just CEF: Earth who has learned how to create effects similar to those of 3 different Major Powers and 3 different Minor Powers... all in addition to other powers he might have.

It wouldn't be much more of a stretch to allow him to manipulate Earth to mimic the abilities of APS: Stone, Metal (through the Metal Manipulation trick), Crystal, Lava, Sand, Glass and/or Pebbles... adding 7 more Major Powers that he can emulate through just logical extensions of his ability of CEF: Earth. While we're at it, it shouldn't be too difficult for him to manipulate gems and crystals to gain the abilities of Gem Powers... and through this access to even more powers through their association with different gems (Invisibility, psionic powers, etc.).

All this... from just 1 Major power. Where does one draw the line between what one can do with their powers and what one can't?

Now for the Magic Weapon thing... are you seriously telling me that you will allow EVERY magical weapon to create champions? Even that sword who's enchantment allows it to merely glow? It can now empower an individual with vast mystical might and can do things that it was never enchanted to do so... simply because it is a magic weapon (and anyone who has a magic weapon obviously belongs to the Mystic Weapon category with everything that grants)?

[wyrmraker]

As for 'Power Stunts' allowing a character a theoretically infinite number of powers, I do disagree. Marvel's power stunt setup is excellent for the play style, as it's set up for that sort of thing exactly. But all power stunts come at a cost, with a lot of dice rolling to get the stunt down correctly.

On the other hand, as an experienced Marvel player and long-time comic reader, I can say with confidence that I could take one power and power stunt it into a dozen. One time I took that exact challenge. One power at a medium level, and through a few months of play I had it expanded into nine powers. Light Generation can do a lot of stuff in the comics. Telekinesis can get ludicrous with the stuff that it can get up to in the comics. But not in HU.

As for Power Stunting in Heroes Unlimited, the system just isn't set up for it. One of the most common tricks in the comics is for the mega-strength brick to cause mini earth tremors by striking the ground. In HU, it's a separate power, except that it can only be done with a stomp.

[Stone Gargoyle]

All of the rules can be modified how a GM sees fit. It pretty much says that in any of the books. That said, if you play by the limited constraints of how a power is written, then you cannot do stunts. I think that is to limit the game from becoming unbalanced. I personally like the idea of allowing a character to take a new power every third level that reflects their developing a stunt. Using EE Fire to develop the ability to create a flame sword or rocket oneself through the air just seem like things the character would be able to learn to do. I don't, however, think that you would be able to learn unrelated powers or learn ones unrelated to your specialty. But if you allow a character to gain a new ability every third level, like I said, and start that ability at first level, it is not overpowering or going to break the game. GMs should use discretion when allowing characters with one APS power to learn a second, for instance, as this is one area the books are kind of warning against such use of powers.

[Daniel Stoker]

When did the game get balanced? Just look at some of the Matter Expulsion powers and the insanity of their bonuses, look at flight wingless compared to flight winged, or the limits both magic users and psychics have on their powers via the power points they have to spend to use them and how fast they regenerate. But I will agree with you completely that this is mostly left in the hands of the GM. I know I'd allow some feats/power stunts depending on what the character wants, heck for the flying thing I might let them use it via Flight Wingless and give them some sort of other bonus for tying the 2 powers in together and limiting their wingless flight. But I'll also agree the system really isn't set up to handle that and I think it's a shame and a cruddy limit there.


Daniel Stoker

[Stone Gargoyle]

That is the absurdity factor in the system. On the one hand, they try to set limits and on the other they give insane bonuses to some things. It is up to the GM to find their own sense of what they think will work in the game and what won't.

[Daniel Stoker]

That is the absurdity factor in the system. On the one hand, they try to set limits and on the other they give insane bonuses to some things. It is up to the GM to find their own sense of what they think will work in the game and what won't.

That’s one of the things that’s bugged me for ages now and why on some level I’d like to see about some sort of point system to make things easier, but then I’m to lazy to set up a point system for everything.


Daniel Stoker

[Stone Gargoyle]

That is the absurdity factor in the system. On the one hand, they try to set limits and on the other they give insane bonuses to some things. It is up to the GM to find their own sense of what they think will work in the game and what won't.

That’s one of the things that’s bugged me for ages now and why on some level I’d like to see about some sort of point system to make things easier, but then I’m to lazy to set up a point system for everything.


Daniel Stoker

I just find that point systems are more work than I care to do.

[Daniel Stoker]

I find I like them in a game already set up for them, but I know they can have issues too.


Daniel Stoker

[Razorwing]

To be perfectly honest, most superheroes in comics have stayed more or less the same over the years... very few actually grow in power to the point where they actually develop new powers. Many of the "stunts" people claim they do all the time are not actually done all the time or new powers.

Superman has had the same basic powers (flight, invulnerability, super strength, various vision powers and such) for a large portion of his run. True, at the beginning of the Superman comics, his abilities were a lot less defined and developed... but there really hasn't been a lot of changes. The biggest change came when they changed his powers to energy based ones (Superman Blue and Superman Red), but even that wasn't a permanent change.

Wonder Woman, Batman, Green Lantern, Flash... all have more or less remained constant in the things they can do. Even Marvel Heroes have remained constant... the Fantastic Four, Spiderman, Captain America, even Doctor Strange have remained more or less the same characters with the same powers for a fair bit of time. Sure, they learn a trick or two for their abilities now and then... but usually only when the need arises and only rarely is it performed regularly afterwards. The Human Torch may have used his control over fire to create ice at one point (by absorbing every ounce of heat he could), it is isn't something he does often enough for it to be considered a new power... or even a stunt he can control.

For most of the heroes in comics, the powers they begin with are usually all they get... every so often there is one who is developed past this (Magik is one such character)... but usually any major change in a character's abilities is rarely permanent. Very few gain additional powers in their careers (Superman's development in the early portion of his run was an exception, not a rule).

I find that the way Heroes Unlimited is set up to show that the vast majority of characters are fairly static in the powers they have to be quite accurate. You don't see Captain America gaining new powers... merely finding new ways to use the abilities and skills he has. Same with Spiderman or Batman. Sure, some characters may increase the level of power they operate at... such as Iron Man creating the Hulk Buster Armor so that he can go toe to toe with Hulk level threats... but that armor isn't used that often.

More often than not... most power upgrades or changes are the result of story events... not spontaneous developments within the character. Wolverine wasn't born with an Adamantium Skeleton... but had it grafted to him as the result of an experiment (and doing so apparently weakened his Healing Factor considerably as it worked harder to prevent heavy metal poisoning). Many of these changes are not permanent... Spiderman's upgrade with the sybiote costume didn't last... and the adamatium skeleton was removed form Wolverine on a few occasions... and least we forget... Superman Red and Superman Blue were eventually restored to the Superman we know.

Yes... stunting is done in comics quite often... but rarely does it result in the acquisition of a new power... and only slightly less rare is it added to one's bag of tricks (such as the abilities many major powers already provide). Most often they are one-trick wonders that are done in times of desperation... never to be attempted again (often due to the circumstances that allowed the trick in the first place are no longer present).

This said, I might allow a player to attempt to perform such a "stunt" in a desperate situation... but usually it will need to remain "in theme" with the powers he has. It will not lead to the acquisition of a brand new power... and the character likely won't be able to do the "stunt" on a regular basis. Every once in a while, characters may achieve things they normally can't... but it is an extraordinary event... not an every day occurrence.

[Nightmask]

You're spending too much time trying to make it out as if they're developing entirely new powers when in fact they aren't, they haven't gained a new power if they for example use their control over the Earth to fly around riding on a rock they still have the same power but are using it in a new way. Just as Spider-man developed a wide range of uses for his webbing that one could translate into new powers if one were to try and make them out that way (he could use it to effectively give him Gliding as a power as well as decoys and not just to swing or entrap a target for example). Reed developed the Bouncing Ball power off of his Elasticity for another example, but it was still just a new use of an existing power and not actually just coming up with a new power (which implies it's unrelated to the existing powers).

[Stone Gargoyle]

If a player uses a power to do something on a regular basis that the power is not described as doing in the initial writeup, such as flying, it becomes more than just a stunt at that point. Making a character have it as an additional power makes sense in that instance and it keeps the player from continually adding more and more abilities to a power that it is not written as having the ability to do.

[Nightmask]

If a player uses a power to do something on a regular basis that the power is not described as doing in the initial writeup, such as flying, it becomes more than just a stunt at that point. Making a character have it as an additional power makes sense in that instance and it keeps the player from continually adding more and more abilities to a power that it is not written as having the ability to do.

Except that they've learned how to use the power for that which is why they're managing it, rather than being artificially kept from ever learning how to do anything new with it even when such things should be possible to learn to do. Which is why it's not adding an additional power it's adding an additional use to an existing power.

[eliakon]

If a player uses a power to do something on a regular basis that the power is not described as doing in the initial writeup, such as flying, it becomes more than just a stunt at that point. Making a character have it as an additional power makes sense in that instance and it keeps the player from continually adding more and more abilities to a power that it is not written as having the ability to do.

Except that they've learned how to use the power for that which is why they're managing it, rather than being artificially kept from ever learning how to do anything new with it even when such things should be possible to learn to do. Which is why it's not adding an additional power it's adding an additional use to an existing power.

And then we are back to the "and thus you can learn an unlimited array of super powers" can of worms......

[Nightmask]

If a player uses a power to do something on a regular basis that the power is not described as doing in the initial writeup, such as flying, it becomes more than just a stunt at that point. Making a character have it as an additional power makes sense in that instance and it keeps the player from continually adding more and more abilities to a power that it is not written as having the ability to do.

Except that they've learned how to use the power for that which is why they're managing it, rather than being artificially kept from ever learning how to do anything new with it even when such things should be possible to learn to do. Which is why it's not adding an additional power it's adding an additional use to an existing power.

And then we are back to the "and thus you can learn an unlimited array of super powers" can of worms......

No actually we aren't and never were. They aren't powers for one and short of an actual omni-power you aren't positioned to learn an unlimited amount of tricks from any power. You're strawmanning it with that characterization in order to demonize the idea of allowing someone to learn legitimate alternative uses for a power and push the idea that they shouldn't be able to do anything new or different with it no matter how justified.

In the only example that keeps being covered the character that learns how to fly around by riding on a rock hasn't developed the power of flight, the power of Wingless Flight is far superior both in speed and in bonuses all the character riding the rock has is the basic ability to get around by riding on the rock to fake it since he can't actually fly as per the power. He likely also has to give up an attack/action each melee because he has to keep some of his concentration on the rock as long as he's trying to remain in the air on it.

[eliakon]

If a player uses a power to do something on a regular basis that the power is not described as doing in the initial writeup, such as flying, it becomes more than just a stunt at that point. Making a character have it as an additional power makes sense in that instance and it keeps the player from continually adding more and more abilities to a power that it is not written as having the ability to do.

Except that they've learned how to use the power for that which is why they're managing it, rather than being artificially kept from ever learning how to do anything new with it even when such things should be possible to learn to do. Which is why it's not adding an additional power it's adding an additional use to an existing power.

And then we are back to the "and thus you can learn an unlimited array of super powers" can of worms......

No actually we aren't and never were. They aren't powers for one and short of an actual omni-power you aren't positioned to learn an unlimited amount of tricks from any power. You're strawmanning it with that characterization in order to demonize the idea of allowing someone to learn legitimate alternative uses for a power and push the idea that they shouldn't be able to do anything new or different with it no matter how justified.

No I am not strawmaning it. I am not demonizing an idea, and I am not against people doing legitimate things nor am I against new or different things. (I also find those insinuations extremely personally insulting and will be reporting them as the personal slurs that they are.)

In the only example that keeps being covered the character that learns how to fly around by riding on a rock hasn't developed the power of flight, the power of Wingless Flight is far superior both in speed and in bonuses all the character riding the rock has is the basic ability to get around by riding on the rock to fake it since he can't actually fly as per the power. He likely also has to give up an attack/action each melee because he has to keep some of his concentration on the rock as long as he's trying to remain in the air on it.

Welcome to the world of strawmen thank you. YOU are now saying that because you get to define the exact nature of how the stunt will work for every one everywhere, that it is obviously not a flight power. I counter with "you are flying. Thus you have the power of flight" Not to mention that no one has had any discussion about what (if any) bonuses will accrue from this flight. NOR do all forms of flight have the same bonuses. Not all Minor powers are created equal after all. But if you can learn a power (in this case flight) then yes, you have learned how to do a new super power. MY argument is that this is a slippery slope. The argument that "Well we are just talking about one power here, flight, so its fine" is a strawman. We are not talking about just one power, we are talking about the ability to learn to do ANY power you can think of that you can connect in ANY way to your power. Rocks fly? Sure. Fire makes ice? Sure. Super speed controls time? Bring it. The simple fact here is that we are not discussing the singular ability of 'can I learn to fly with Control Elemental Forces Earth", but instead can I learn to gain more powers from the ones I have. Powers that I can then call upon when ever, and where ever I want (which is the definition of 'new super powers'). THAT is what I have a problem with. The ability for people to gain new super powers, in this particular game system, because its not set up to handle it. It breaks the system because it can, as I have repeatedly pointed out, result in people with dozens of minor powers. And THAT is not exactly fair to the other people, or are you proposing that I can learn to 'stunt' weapons, and spells, and psionics, and bionics, and......
At that point your not talking about a new mechanic....your talking about totally rewriting the rules to the point where we are no longer talking about Palladium at all.