1st/2nd Hybrid

[Lord Malachdrim]

I know there are folks out there who do not like the combat/megaversal changes that 2nd ed introduced so I thought I would quickly layout my personal hybrid and see what others thought of it.

The core of my game is 1st ed with the following changes.

2nd Ed:
Races/Monsters
SDC
PPE we keep going back and forth on

Rule Modifiers:
AR - If no AR is given for a creature it is set to 5. If a roll without modifiers does not beat the AR it does SDC damage. If it beats the AR it goes straight to HP.

[Veknironth]

Well, we preferred to keep most of the 2nd Edition but we didn't use SDC for people's bodies (it's just extra HP, just give people more HP if you want to!) and we kept the old, H2H charts.

-Vek
"You will never convince me on SDC, don't try."

[Lord Malachdrim]

The idea behind keeping SDC was to make things like Dragons and other monsters much harder to kill, and yet still have a chance at hitting the softer meat underneath. It also allowed us to get around the fact that natural ar is an in exhaustible supply of protection for a creature.

For example with a dragon with our house rule. If you roll below the dragons AR your blade slams home against the creature's scaled hide and you can slowly break those scales down (since dragon's have a ton of SDC). And by trying the SDC to the AR it also meant that humans and similar guys were no harder to kill then they were before. Since before if you rolled below a 5 you missed and now if you rolled below a 5 you hit the SDC and with 1st ed's skills you are not going to be able to jack out your SDC (or stats).

[Veknironth]

Well, then you agree with me that SDC was just extra HP in the books.

-Vek
"Always nice when we can agree."

[kiralon]

core of my game is 1st ed
magic is the same except
sorcerors are 1st ed wizards with ppe and spells from 2nd ed
no sdc for beings without exoskeletons\magic. its not bonus hp either. want to stay alive, wear armour.
gods and dragons from second ed
weapons and armour from second ed. (on a side note i never thought armour protected enough so we have an armour penetration roll as well and that only adds wp plus to strike and weapons magical bonus, so full plate is very effective, but it also reduces your max speed to 12)
i use the racial special abilities from 2nd ed.
everyone starts with 1 atm.
ranged weapons have minimum to hit numbers based on range, cover and enviroment.
crossbows have a natural +5 to penetrate armour, and each crossbow type has a maximum ROF based on the crossbow itself, so you can get an uber huge xbow that has a rof of 1/4 (1 shot every 4 rounds, doesnt matter if you have a rof of 22, it can still only fire once every 4 rounds)
characters have perks to pick from (think fallout)
supernatural creatures from 2nd ed.
the bloody huge mountain range in the eastern territories does not exist. (i started playing before eastern territories was released, and they should have shown on the big map). there is no contested area, et goes tight up to wolfen border.
and an a heap more

[Library Ogre]

Well, then you agree with me that SDC was just extra HP in the books.

-Vek
"Always nice when we can agree."

I am very disappointed with how SDC has been handled. I'd have it increase per level (instead of HP), and let HP represent more dangerous wounds... criticals, or any wound after you've been beaten sufficiently. The different healing times for SDC v. HP make SDC a neat bonus, but, yeah... it's not implemented well.

[ZorValachan]

The armor charts did not change between editions. This throws everything out of wack. I don't like how in 2nd ed SDC for armor can be much less than a person's SDC. In 1st ed armor meant something. in 2nd ed, an ogre or troll character is better than a human with armor. Characters run around naked because the priest can give 'free healing' and armor costs to repair. Also AR did not increase, but in 2nd ed physical skills make it easier to hit. I've seen crazy NPCs (LOTD1-I'm looking at you), where some demons/devils wear magical armour that has an AR -less- than their natural AR. Doesn't make sense to wear it. If there were more ways to bypass SDC and hit HP, might be better. and make HP damage have negatives to rolls.

I agree SDC should be increased per lvl, not HP. Also I think animated dead and undead should be SDC and not HP, as they are not alive and HP represents 'life' and SDC represents 'structure'

[Sir Dellis]

I personally like a deadlier game, so I like the scale that Hit Points offer in 1st Edition, vs. the somewhat inflated nature of personal SDC in 2nd edition, especially as it stands vs. what protection armor can afford.

maybe it's just the people that I have played with over the years, but when I kill off their characters, they tend to get mad at me because they've put all of this time and effort into the character....higher SDC and hps makes it easier not to kill off PCs on accident imo

[Veknironth]

Well, Mark and Zor, I think you guys are on my side but not addressing my main problem with SDC. There is almost nothing that bypasses SDC and goes right to HP. As such, SDC is essentially indistinguishable from HP. Whether it increases per level or not, it still serves no purpose other than extra HP. It's extremely difficult to figure out what will do SDC and what will do HP. I've heard a people say blades to HP and blunt weapons do SDC but that seems silly to me. Sure being stabbed or chopped with a sword is going to do some internal damage, but so will being bludgeoned with a bludgeon. Also, being kicked hard can be awfully dangerous to your squishy parts as well. It's really difficult to put into mechanics. I prefer HP for the living, SDC for the dead. Or, HP is something that will grow back, SDC must be repaired.

As for danger in combat. I much prefer that. Fighting, even just with hands is a dangerous proposition. I know people like the movies where heroes are shot, stabbed, pummeled, etc and don't slow down but I prefer a little more realism in the game. Being stabbed, cut, shot, or clobbered is a painful, and traumatic experience. People wisely avoid that sort of thing for just this reason. There just aren't enough consequences for people acting violently in games, personal health being one of them. Yeah, it's dangerous when someone is trying to kill you!

-Vek
"Or so I hear."

[Library Ogre]

Oh, I agree, Vek. It's just part of Palladium's failure to understand what it has in terms of mechanics.

If I were writing it, I'd have HP be for criticals, many poisons, or when your SDC is depleted. SDC damage would be "That which does not kill me", while HP damage would be "We're in deep **** now, Francis." SDC would increase with level; HP would increase rarely. It would require some rewriting of current critical rules (double damage direct to HP would be pretty devastating), but "multiplier -1 to HP" would be a bit more reasonable.

[ZorValachan]

While I am not totally against SDC for people, I think base SDC for armour should be much more (add a 0 or something, so 40 SDC for leather becomes 400), and agree with Mark that SDC would go up each level, not HP. I agree there should be more ways to bypass SDC (Right now off the top of my head I think there might 3 things that do it). The edged vs blunt is not a rule that I ever read. I also think if HP are lost (either through having no SDC left, or bypassing, some type of penalty should be there (such as -10% to skills and -2 to d20 rolls), showing that your life is in danger.

[Damian Magecraft]

While I am not totally against SDC for people, I think base SDC for armour should be much more (add a 0 or something, so 40 SDC for leather becomes 400), and agree with Mark that SDC would go up each level, not HP. I agree there should be more ways to bypass SDC (Right now off the top of my head I think there might 3 things that do it). The edged vs blunt is not a rule that I ever read. I also think if HP are lost (either through having no SDC left, or bypassing, some type of penalty should be there (such as -10% to skills and -2 to d20 rolls), showing that your life is in danger.

simplest fix is crits do HP at normal damage rate (or in other words... lose the crits do double damage and have them by pass sdc). Its not a perfect fix I know but it does up the deadly factor.
"Fixing" armor? no need to increase the sdc there... just have AR act as a Damage Reduction in addition to a To Hit mechanic.

[kiralon]

i did use sdc in ninjas and superspies, turtles, robotech and bts, however sdc was only damaged by non weapon combat (kicks punches etc) and guns/weapons went straight to sdc, when someone pointed a weapon at a pc and said "stop or ill shoot", they usually stopped, rather then giggling a little bit and walking up to the antagonist and sticking their finger in the barrel of his 357 magnum and daring him to fire, which you can do if sdc works against bullets.

[Soldier of Od]

While I am not totally against SDC for people, I think base SDC for armour should be much more (add a 0 or something, so 40 SDC for leather becomes 400), and agree with Mark that SDC would go up each level, not HP. I agree there should be more ways to bypass SDC (Right now off the top of my head I think there might 3 things that do it). The edged vs blunt is not a rule that I ever read. I also think if HP are lost (either through having no SDC left, or bypassing, some type of penalty should be there (such as -10% to skills and -2 to d20 rolls), showing that your life is in danger.

simplest fix is crits do HP at normal damage rate (or in other words... lose the crits do double damage and have them by pass sdc). Its not a perfect fix I know but it does up the deadly factor.
"Fixing" armor? no need to increase the sdc there... just have AR act as a Damage Reduction in addition to a To Hit mechanic.

I agree that these two points would be an improvement (S.D.C. going up each level instead of H.P. and critical hits bypassing S.D.C. and going straight to H.P. (without any multipier)). Some more S.D.C. or A.R. for armour would also be a bonus.

An option I considered a while ago was to have some attacks, such as fists, feet and throws, considered to be 'brawling' attacks that effect S.D.C. first, and others, like swords and guns, going straight to H.P. I know that you could maintain that a fist on some people could be as deadly as a weapon, but remember that just because the attack is affecting S.D.C. first doesn't make it weak or useless - an attacker with a high P.S. could wipe out the opponent's S.D.C. in one or two punches anyway. The biggest probelm I found came in deciding whether any other attacks might also be lumped into the 'brawling' category, such as a club or a whip. Or maybe whether the combatants could just decide themselves that they are not intending to kill, and engage in a 'brawl' by choice, which could turn deadly if either side decides to up the ante and go for a killing blow straight to H.P. Any opinions?

[Library Ogre]

"Fixing" armor? no need to increase the sdc there... just have AR act as a Damage Reduction in addition to a To Hit mechanic.

I long had armor give DR equal to AR -4, with criticals giving you the option of double damage (while reducing for AR) or ignoring AR (useful for low damage weapons like daggers).