SO when is this BUg War starting

[Killer Cyborg]

One thing I am noticing a lot in this discussion is the apparent perception that Dog Boys are omniscient. They are not.

Yes, they have a refined ability to detect supernatural phenomena. However, this ability flat-out does not work on a ley line or at a nexus. There is just too much magic energy flowing around and it "whites out" their ability to sense magic. Nexus points also impede Psi-Stalkers as well. This is a key part of why the CS is forced to rely on mundane means of detection as they try to lock down the ruins of Tolkeen. A mage can basically stand around casting spells all day and still the packs still won't be able to pinpoint him.

Yup.

Then there is the simple fact that neither Dog Boys nor Psi-Stalkers are immune to trickery and misdirection. In practical terms, multiple practitioners of magic, spells, supernatural beings and other supernatural phenomena can be as confusing as trying to track people through a maze-like structure by the sound of them running, only they're all running in different directions. If you have PPE to spare, this is actually a good tactic for leading Dog Packs on wild goose chases. It's also one reason why, no matter how much time they spend shaking the Burbs down, they never really manage to clear the all the mages (Vanguard included) out. Not a ley line in sight. But stray magic everywhere, which makes it hard to track, even if additional concealment is not being employed. Throw in tricks like the psionic powers Mask ISP & Psionics and Mask PPE and life suddenly gets a lot harder for the NTSET folks.

Sure... but that sort of thing wouldn't help much in the given scenarios I've seen here.

The Tolkeen Siege series was very blatantly aimed to appeal to power gaming visuals. Iron Juggernauts versus Coalition robots. A million skelebots on the march (and getting smashed en masse by elementals). BTW: I still can't believe that ARCHIE was the only one able to figure out how to make knockoffs of those things! Meanwhile, with the CS forces stretched so thin, why not use Rift Teleportation to pop some troops into Chicago? With the bulk of their armies committed elsewhere I would wager that the usual forces guarding the ruins were reduced. And it would have forced Prosek to start worrying about his largely undefended flank.

The bulk of the invading army were green recruits, recruited for that purpose.
Chi-town would still be fully equipped with at least a few million troops.

Prosek and his cronies are SDC humans, not alien intelligences with 30,000 - 120,000 MDC! How hard it can it really be to sneak in and blast him in the shower? One MD of damage and he's a bloody smear on the tile!

You have to find him and sneak up on him first.
That's the problem.

Kevin repeatedly refers to magic as "The Great Equalizer", but it is rarely treated as such, at least when the CS is involved. There's too much hand-waving about why some things that should be allowed by the rules don't work in this one instance because it would mean eliminating a key character.

I suppose the frustration comes from the built-in notion that "the game" is sacrosanct. Key characters, like the Prosek's, have Plot Armor and cannot possibly be killed. Basically it's "You can't get into Chi-Town because if you did then you would ruin the #1 bad guys and we can't have that". Certain points in the game become fixed. You can defeat the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, but a pretentious Hitler wannabee is totally off-limits!

It's not that, exactly.
It's that if it were as easy as casting teleport and invisibility, and tip-toeing around a bit, the CS would never have gotten so big in the first place.
You can interpret the rules and setting in such a way that they mostly make sense, or you can interpret them in such a way where nothing makes sense.
Interpreting things so that a mage or three (or even a dozen) could pose a serious threat to the emperor of Chi-Town, on his home turf, is interpreting things so that nothing makes sense.

[Pepsi Jedi]

In short. No. Doesn't work like that.

something like the AMI only gets you so far. you've still got the mages teleporting bombs using lesser teleport. the fact that now they have to bomb a hole into the AMI before they can bomb the stuff inside just delays the problem. you've still got the fact that a mage can be miles away in a very safe place (for example, 2,000 feet below ground in a bunker prepared by an earth warlock or summoned earth elemental, while using spells such as breathe without air) and just keep on bombing. give them a ley line, and the range they can use it from doubles... and they won't be running out of PPE any time soon, either.

Won't work for a number of reasons.

1) You're assuming the Mages know the AMI exists. They do not. Most of the CS don't know it exists. They're installed in secret and maintained in secret. Of those that do know about it, you're talking die hards that would die before divulging the information and the information is only known by a select few. It's hard to find out information when you've no way to know to even start looking for it. All the Mages know is 'Teleporting into a CS mega city or base doesn't work" They've no idea the AMI exists, except from the result. It's not a wall or a force field. Nothing visable nor "magical" To detect. It's tech based, and buried 30 feet underground.

and

2) You can't bomb your way though it. Even if they did know about it (( which they don't)) Teleporting bombs to blow it up wouldn't work. When you try, you're thrown back 2D10X100 Yards. So a minimum of 2 football fields back from the ring. A maximum of 20 football fields back. So you try and teleport your bomb in and BOING!!!! It goes flying back. If the bomb survives the bounce back, it's blowing up literal 100s of yards from the ring. And the ring isn't "under the wall" it's out from the wall. under ground. So you're talking about 100s of yards away from the base an explosion goes off. Good for blowing up a chanty in the burbs? Maybe. But it also depends on where you are. In New Chillicothe you might get some of the burbs with the bounced back bomb, but it states that chi town has over 100 interlapping rings. So you're not even getting close to chi. Your bomb will land a couple miles away and blow up some trees or something.

and really, even if tolkeen's army *is* entirely non-military (which it isn't, they had plenty of mercenaries, including a few companies, and frankly the odds that *none* of their mages came from the military or from a mercenary company is just laughably improbable),

Some? Sure. Most? No. And those some still fought as individuals. The few smaller mercenarycompanies might have had some military order but you're talking dozens in a war of 100s of 1000s. They probably did their weight in kills and tactics in the battle. Probably a bit more than their weight, bbut they can't make up for the numbers.

Sort of like one adult dragon fighting alone is no doubt a match for a squad of CS grunts... but a platoon. 30 or so could take him down in a substained fight. ANd there were lots and lots of CS troops.

And remember, mercenaries don't fight to the bitter end, no matter what. They're there, to get paid. They don't have that esprit de corps. Some of the mages might have been very military minded, but you're talking one here.... one there.... most of the mages and magic users are very willful and used to "Rollin' their own way' and what not. Trying to enforce military order on such a mixed bag was almost impossible and therefore couldn't act offensively as one. "We'll sit here and defend what we hold!!!" is one thing. Forward momentum and offensive operations? Quite another.

at that point it just gets even more ridiculous. if they're all off doing their own thing, why didn't even one of them go after the CS's home base? why did not even one of them try to disrupt the CS's logistics?

They did. The CS logistics was one of the only parts where they could make a difference. There's even a pick that stands out in memory where a group are hiding in the woods with a rocket launcher about to shoot it at the bottom of a Death's Head Transport as it flew over. And I'm sure some did try to go after the CS's home base.

It's... you know... Hard. In the middle of a war to sneak into the home base of the opposing side. Cuz... they're kinda on the look out for that sort of thing.... and have defenses up to stop you. And the CS is 100% a military minded nation. It's not like our bases in the US where you can drive on just going through a security checkpoint. They live in a world where the next guy in line could LITERALLY be a dragon that could Rar out and bite your face off. During the war the security around the mega cities probably quadrupled, MINIMUM. Why? Because... it's smart to try and send someone behind the lines to mess up your enemies home base.

So I'm sure they tried. I'm sure they had varying levels of success. But nothing huge, as nothing huge of that nature was reported.

i mean, we're not talking about super-brilliant military tactics, here. we're talking about very simple, obvious stuff, and it should only be even *more* obvious to someone who uses magic in every aspect of their life. frankly, for the people of tolkeen, it is much more likely that if someone was to say "let's attack chi-town" that the first thing in most of their heads would be teleport, because that's how you get from point A to point B when they're far apart and you're a mage. if someone was to say "but how are we going to march an army past the invading army", that person would probably have everyone else staring at them like they grew a second head or something, just like you or i would think a person odd if they were to suggest going to the store by airplane instead of by car, bus, or walking.

You're assuming they all had the power to do so, the knowledge to do so, and the juice to do so. That's very much not in evidence. In the game world, casting a spell takes effort. it takes some of your energy. Sure to us players it's just 'PPE' on the sheet, tick it off, but in the universe we play in they're expending some of their magical energy to do so. It's work. It's not just like 'Click' I pulled the trigger, the laser shot. Gonna click again. They have to cast the spell. They have to weave the magic. By all accounts it's hard work. That's why there's few mages. Teleporting 100s to 1000s of people would take absolutely massive amounts of ppe and effort and huge huge huge amounts of mages that were doing just that.. and it'd wear them out. Having a Layline helps with the PPE but the mages still have to channel it and put in the work. You're basicly going "Oh well there's ppe they can do it all day and night no problem" Thats like saying a weight lifter can power lift his maximum weight over his head all day and night if you keep giving him gator aide and protean shakes. "Well he's got the fuel. he can do the thing. ((Lift 500lbs over his head? How much do those freaks lift?)) over and over and over and over and over and over. And it's even more dangerous than that. One flubup in the spell. One mispronounced word and you send the next guy to materialize in the bottom of one of the great lakes, or in a tree, or in the ground. You gonna entrust your life to the guy that's been sweating bullets and casting the spell, mystically drained from hours of spellwork? Not me man. he could teleport me into a mountain. Or the middle of a CS camp.

Not to mention when this army of mages start to land. They're going to stand out pretty big and it'd be the perfect time to hit them. Before you could "Form up" your magical army via teleporting, the CS will have seen this mass of people gearing up behind the lines and reacted with fast action responce teams. They DO have supersonic jets and power armor.

They'd attack the army before it's forming up then just hang out. Wait for the next flash and start vaporizing the mages as they appeared after the next cycle of teleports.

frankly, the first thing that should come to a mage's mind when they want to send some object far, far, away is lesser teleport. because that's what a mage does when they want to send some object far away.

Would it work? Sure, but there's a bit more to it. It's not like sending an email. There are limits. And you still gotta put in the effort and make the roll and the chance of failure is there, it goes way up if you've not been a place before and if you fail you're fraked.

[Pepsi Jedi]

something like the AMI only gets you so far. you've still got the mages teleporting bombs using lesser teleport.

Unless Lesser Teleport has the same restrictions as the Greater version, and unless you have trouble recruiting mages to do that kind of work.

doesn't matter the restrictions. the AMIR proposal prevents you from teleporting stuff through it. so you don't. you teleport it to the outside (which the better versions of teleport can also do), where it explodes. eventually, after doing this often enough, you will breach the outer shell. the AMIR will then no longer prevent you from teleporting stuff inside it.

Again, no. You're blowing up stuff a ---minimum--- of 200 yards away from the ami. Maximum of 2,000 yards away. Your Mage made IMD's are not going to even scratch the AMI. And it's underground, no doubt housed in MDC materials.

You gotta remember the mages have ---------------no idea----------------- why teleporting into a CS city doesn't work. It just doesn't. The number that have tried are probably not that large (( Suicide mission at the best of times)) And when they try it's like hitting a huge rubber wall and they're thrown literaly 100s of yards back. Landing dazed and confused, and in enemy territory. They don't have a way of adiquately testing the limit because the throw back is different for each attempt. They could have a range of 2,000 yards wide that they know they can't get past. So what... are they going to expend resources to carpet bomb the 2000 yard swath miles and miles and miles around the city with their improved bombs? Still won't work. As the closest they could get is still 200 yards from the source of the interfearance and underground and sheilded. At most they'll burn a ring around the city, and put the CS on alert. While they sit behind the AMi eating cheeseburgers and laugh. "Hey Frank. Check it out. The Mages are trying to tele-bomb us again." "Yeah? You have any idea why it doesn't work?" "No. You?" "none.. but it's funny as hell. Well you know.. except for that ring of the burbs that's blown up... but it keeps us from blowing it up next month" "Well yeah. Pass me some frys and lets watch the fireworks"

and from the look of it, tolkeen shouldn't have had even the tiniest bit of trouble recruiting mages to do that kind of work.

Psychics can travel astrally at something like Mach 1, including flying through walls.
This includes many Dog Boys, who can also detect psychic scents.

true, but casting a spell doesn't create a trail back to the caster. it creates a scent at the location the spell was cast (and, in the case of teleport, i think it's reasonable to assume a scent in the place the teleported object comes out at), but that's it. if you're 2,000 feet below the ground, the dog boys are going to have to randomly be astrally projecting and running around underground, with absolutely no idea where to look. and, once they do find you (if they do find you at all), the mage can simply set up shop elsewhere, leaving the exact same dilemma for the dog boys. and in order to reach the caster, it would take the CS *hours* of blasting to get down to 2,000 feet, most likely (and this assumes the caster isn't further down)

Your mage is going to teleport into an underground chamber he's never seen or been in before? MMmmm I'm bettin' no for most of those that COULD. That's a quick way to squelch your self. And... an underground chamber, casting magic at an unseen place? You're asking for all sorts of failure and blow back and what not. It's easy to say "OOCly" as a "hand of god" "Yeah do this..." but getting people do put themselves in that situation is quite different. Most mages would tell you to frak your self. They're not teleporting themselves into a hole... then teleporting explosives into the hole with them... to blindly teleport explosives OUT of the hole. That's begging for death in all sorts of ways.

Because the series was written poorly.

i agree. this is why i largely ignore it. it was badly written, little or no thought was given to how a nation with magical capabilities would fight a war, and it ignores how a conventional army (or at least, the rifts version of one) would work as well.

Sure, if they know that particular 6th level spell.

why wouldn't they? it's not a terribly rare spell, and frankly, tolkeen should have been training everyone capable how to cast the spell. or, at the very least, they should have been churning out device level 10 lesser teleport TW artillery or something.

Cuz it's magic and magic is hard. It takes effort. And again, Tolkeen wasn't a standing army. They were a city. By your reasoning we should be teaching everyone in the US how to pilot C130s. Because... flight training isn't all that rare.... and we should have everyone trained in how to fly transport jets, in case a war hits the US and we need to move equipment and men around.

[Shark_Force]

if you find that you can only get within 200 yards, then just start teleporting in missiles instead of bombs. a bit of trial and error will figure out the threshold of where you can safely teleport things in (and note that the AMIR is neither 100% effective, nor is it even canon that it exists at all) and no, clairvoyance isn't going to help you find the person. you might see that the person is in a dark room with stone or earthen walls and no exit, but that's only going to get you so far. it's not like clairvoyance gives you GPS co-ordinates for the person you see (assuming you even see the guy doing the teleporting... you're more likely to see the chi-town wall exploding, or something like that, with little to no indication of time frame). and no, you're not going to have a hard time finding someone willing to do this. tolkeen is apparently full of mages who are more than happy to work with the daemonix, who are not exactly the nicest of beings. if they're willing to call up an army of beings who's idea of fun involves torturing, killing, and hurting sentient beings, then i don't think you're exactly worried about civilian casualties.

examining the target site from miles away should be easy. remember, this isn't just some chump mage, it's a mage backed by a nation which has lots of resources. a superior invisible, flying mage is going to be nearly impossible to detect (essentially undetectable except to dog boys and psi-stalkers, and even that can be canceled by using mystic invisibility). give him a decent telescope, and you should be fine (and for that matter, he can probably just go right near the area he wants to bomb in most cases) finding a mage who knows all this stuff shouldn't be a huge deal, because you've got magical schools and stuff like that... it costs 70k credits to buy knowledge of the spell in normal situations, but it costs 0 credits for the guy to teach it... meaning if it's important enough that someone should know a spell, it's very reasonable to suppose that they will know the spell (and hey, now you don't have to pay him as much salary because you've paid him in other forms of currency).

finding people willing to bomb the CS is not likely to be hard. they've apparently got lots of fanatics who are (assuming i'm reading the fluff correctly) willing to sacrifice themselves to be fused into gigantic automatons, for example. also, as far as a mind melter going to mess up the guy doing the teleport bombing... there's not an awful lot a mind melter could do in that situation. they'd be limited to sensitive powers that affect the mind. not exactly a ton of options there (for the record, bio-manipulation is a physical power, and probably telemechanics is as well based on the fact that machine ghost is a physical power)


edit: also, i find it a bit absurd to assume that because not everyone in the tolkeen forces is military trained, that they therefore are completely incapable of working together, following orders, or thinking up clever ways to use their spells and abilities. if a few of us can sit here and think up potentially devastating uses of various abilities, how much more so will the people who use those abilities as a way of life be able to do so?

[Pepsi Jedi]

if you find that you can only get within 200 yards, then just start teleporting in missiles instead of bombs.[/quote]

Something else I've not brought up yet. Just where are your mages getting the unlimited amounts of explosives? "oh we'll teleport bombs in till we blow our way through". Well they're mages. Not the CS. Where are they getting all these bombs. That's not even counting missiles. What are you going to shoot the missile at the mage casting teleport and him 'catch' the missile in the teleport spell and have it come out on the other side flying full strength? *Shakes head* Can't really have your cake and eat it too. Would Tolkeen have some explosives? Sure. But not to the tune that alot of people are making out where they could just try and fail add-infin to try and 'wittle their way in' with them.

Chi town is said to have over 100 of the AMI rings. You've a 1 in 20 chance of bypassing each one. Are you seriously contending that you can roll a natural 20 over 100 times in a row? While possible, the odds are like winning a lottery. And think of the massive amounts of explosives needed to even try that route. getting 20 natural 20s in a row? You're talking what, 100s of 1000s of attempts? Millions? Tolkeen doesn't have THAT much explosives to waste on your plan.

Even if you did, you know what happens then? Your bomb or missile hits the wall, and the ablative armor sucks it up, and they still laugh at you. You'd have to do more than 600 MDC to get though the ---first--- layer of over 40 and each layer after that can take roughly 600 mdc per strike. You'd have to get your bomb though over 100 rolls of natural 20s each time, then have it hit the exact same place, each time then have each boom do more than 600mdc per strike to blow just a 10 by 10 hole in the wall.

In short. Not happenin'.

a bit of trial and error will figure out the threshold of where you can safely teleport things in (and note that the AMIR is neither 100% effective, nor is it even canon that it exists at all)

Not really, as the 'bounce back' effect throws you back 200 to 2000 yards and stuns you every time. And that's 200 to 2000 yards deep in enemy territory. You're not the mythbusters doing trials in a controlled enviroment. You're bouncing off the thing and going flying backwards 2 to 20 football feilds. Landing shaken up and dazed. then... You're in the middle of CS territory having just tried to teleport in. (( or.. you're a bomb that lands there)) The bomb isn't going to tell you what happened and the dazed mage is going to be quickly in trouble.

If we're going the "AIM isn't canon" Then why have the discussion? if you're going to take that route your debate stops with the "I think mages can just teleport in with out being stopped and the CS never gained promiance because they would have done this 100 years ago and it'd be the Magical Kingdom of Twinkala or something.

and no, clairvoyance isn't going to help you find the person. you might see that the person is in a dark room with stone or earthen walls and no exit, but that's only going to get you so far. it's not like clairvoyance gives you GPS co-ordinates for the person you see (assuming you even see the guy doing the teleporting... you're more likely to see the chi-town wall exploding, or something like that, with little to no indication of time frame). and no, you're not going to have a hard time finding someone willing to do this. tolkeen is apparently full of mages who are more than happy to work with the daemonix, who are not exactly the nicest of beings. if they're willing to call up an army of beings who's idea of fun involves torturing, killing, and hurting sentient beings, then i don't think you're exactly worried about civilian casualties.

Wasn't it written that most did NOT want the tadpole demons there, and that it was an act by a desperate few in high places that pulled that off? It's been a few years since I've read all the books. (( and Kent Burles Illistrations of those thigns are crap so I never read TOO deeply into them.))

examining the target site from miles away should be easy. remember, this isn't just some chump mage, it's a mage backed by a nation which has lots of resources. a superior invisible, flying mage is going to be nearly impossible to detect (essentially undetectable except to dog boys and psi-stalkers, and even that can be canceled by using mystic invisibility). give him a decent telescope, and you should be fine (and for that matter, he can probably just go right near the area he wants to bomb in most cases) finding a mage who knows all this stuff shouldn't be a huge deal, because you've got magical schools and stuff like that... it costs 70k credits to buy knowledge of the spell in normal situations, but it costs 0 credits for the guy to teach it..

You're sort of god handing it now aren't you? A mage with this combo of spells that has them all for free and is willing to take the risk and move in with out any of the defences actually catching him, ect ect ect?

We can do the same thing the other way with Chi town snipers from the TAG and just one md shot the Tolkeen generals with outt their armor on in the head. You're talking about full out "I'm going to ignore some things, and paint a best case god equipped, god grouped god enhanced, god mage way of doing it.

Sure... if you do all that you have the possibility of ending the war on either side. The reason they didn't, is because in the (( laughingly I know)) Real world, people aren't like that. It's not 'That easy'.

meaning if it's important enough that someone should know a spell, it's very reasonable to suppose that they will know the spell (and hey, now you don't have to pay him as much salary because you've paid him in other forms of currency).

Again, by this logic, all our troops should be the highest trained navy seals, because the training exists and it's smart to do. Why have an army of normal troops when they could all be seals? They aren't, because it's not that easy to do. It's very expensive to do, and most people can't do it.

edit: also, i find it a bit absurd to assume that because not everyone in the tolkeen forces is military trained, that they therefore are completely incapable of working together, following orders, or thinking up clever ways to use their spells and abilities. if a few of us can sit here and think up potentially devastating uses of various abilities, how much more so will the people who use those abilities as a way of life be able to do so?

It seems to be by and large the basis for why Tolkeen did so poorly in the war.... that.... because most of them were not military trained.... they did NOT work together (( that was made clear a number of times.)) and that inspite of being magical, the magic didn't work the 'clever ways' youre saying because they 'Lived" the life. they didn't sit back with a book and go "according to the wording this is allowed. So it's allowed. So I'm going to combine these 10 spells in this one uniquic way, to be able to do this one single thing, with my char" They're actual people that don't build their lives around being able to do one hypothetical thing in the future that may or may not happen, much less be that guy who is also a ninja commando, to have a chance of pulling it off.

Can they think up clever ways to use magic? Clearly. the entire "Gonna suck up the nukes that could end the war in 10 minutes" Thing says yes. But just because you read a technicality in 3 lines of text describing a spell. Doesn't mean the mages have access to that sort of thing to be able to 'game the system (life)" To get it to work the way you're intending.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Chi town is said to have over 100 of the AMI rings. You've a 1 in 20 chance of bypassing each one. Are you seriously contending that you can roll a natural 20 over 100 times in a row? While possible, the odds are like winning a lottery. And think of the massive amounts of explosives needed to even try that route. getting 20 natural 20s in a row? You're talking what, 100s of 1000s of attempts? Millions? Tolkeen doesn't have THAT much explosives to waste on your plan.

If we're going the "AIM isn't canon" Then why have the discussion? if you're going to take that route your debate stops with the "I think mages can just teleport in with out being stopped and the CS never gained promiance because they would have done this 100 years ago and it'd be the Magical Kingdom of Twinkala or something.

Because, if you are going to go the route of treating non-canon stuff as a rationale then it also works in the other direction. If Chi-Town can have anti-teleportation technology/techno-wizardry that is not mentioned at all, in the core game books, then one could just as easily ask why Tolkeen, sitting in the middle of a ley line triangle and with access to potentially hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of points PPE could not just develop some Spell of Legend that would conjure up a volcano underneath Chi-Town and turn it into a disaster movie?

As a baseline, Chi-Town is less technologically advanced than Triax in pretty much all areas except for genetic engineering. They are definitely well behind ARCHIE-3, the Kittani, the Naruni, most of the power blocs in the Three Galaxies (especially the Prometheans) and the CAN Republic. So it is hard to rationalize their having any tech that significantly exceeds any of those groups.

The Three Galaxies is especially troubling. While Tolkeen had adventuring parties out combing the Megaverse for magical artifacts, why didn't they just buy some nice high-tech weaponry on Phase World or from Naruni Enterprises? UWW techno-wizardry is way more advanced than Tolkeen, Lazlo or Stormspire. Conventional technology from lots of Three Galaxies corporations would fly rings around anything the CS has. Even if you could not teleport something into Chi-Town (something I am still very dubious about), you could just buy some nifty WMD's on the Megaversal black market. There are even fairly mercenary Prometheans running around who could probably figure out a way past any anti-teleportation defense the CS could possibly get it's hands on!

One big advantage that Tolkeen had that the CS could not match was both the willingness, and the ability, to acquire resources from other dimensions. Yet they seemed to oddly focus on canvasing many worlds for obscure artifacts over a simple shopping trip to Phase World.

So, it's back to the Plot Armor thing. Chi-Town is unassailable because it needs to be for plot reasons, not because there is any actual game reason for it. Coalition War Campaign goes on at significant length about how the ISS and NTSET labor tirelessly to track down supernatural intruders inside of Chi-Town. Which raises the question of what these intruders are doing. Shopping? Since so many of the Retribution Squads clearly have a suicidal bent and apparently one can get inside the city it is little odd that nobody is just smuggling in bombs and blowing the place to heck. The only explanation is just that it would wreck a favorite plot element - the CS and the Proseks.

Hurrm... You do bring up a point. The "Why didn't tolkeen just buy stuff on the dimensional market" It's a valid question. One that could possibly have a dozen answers... my knee jerk responce would be 'Rifts earth is Splynn's playground and noone wanted to sell to Tolkeen people to mess with that'. But it seems a bit far reaching. I don't honestly know tolkeens reach megaversally speaking. Yes they have allies on Rifts earth but how long is their reach? I.E. Phase world and the like? I honestly don't know the answer to that one. On the other side of the coin. The AMI is explained as tech that was developed, with help.... help from who isn't directly stated. (On purpose no doubt) the CS might have sent a few people to Phase world. "HOW!! THEY COULD NEVER DO THAT!?!?!" Same way Archie could. You might hate magic but you know it exists and works. You get one mage that can do so, you pay him enormous amounts of money to do so, even if you hate it. You get the technology that you want. Then you kill the idiot. the AMI very well could be technology from Phase world or the megaverse. (( it's implied that they fell assbackwards into it, but it's left vague enough that it could be other things))

And yes there is plot armor in place (( on both sides, no doubt. As much as people say Kev likes the CS, they're never really painted in a good light. lol and as much as it might be implied he hates Tolkeen, tolkeen did get the hand wave on the nukes that could 'end' the war in minutes )) But you're 100% right that there is plot armor on both sides.

I think the 'easiest' answer might be something to this effect.

"Yes 'reality' says that somethings don't work. Or somethings could end wars in a snap if 'used properly'. But that doesn't make for a very fun or interactive game/game environment. Some people like a bit more reality in their RPGs, some like a bit less. The people at palladium are charged with entertaining us and giving us product to help augment our own entertaining of ourselves.

Things like "The CS hits the nuke button and makes Tolkeen glow for the next 3000years to end the war" While.. flashy, is a paragraph at best, and all in all, anticlimactic.
Conversely things like "Tolkeen teleports into the throne room and tosses an MD fireball at Karl's face thus ending the threat from him." While flashy, is a paragraph at best and all in all anticlimactic.

For thematic and storytelling purposes, these sorts of things don't happen. And while you "Could do this' or "Could do that" in reality they're never that easy.

____IN THEORY____ It wouldn't be 'Too hard' to kill Obama. _____ IN THEORY_____ You can buy a Winchester M700 and scope at any walmart in the nation. With out a background check. Buy ammo for it in the same place.

Walk out the door, drive to a range and zero in the scope.

Then with how well published the President's schedule is, wait till his next appearance. park a half mile away and make a head shot. No magic needed. A few hundred dollars spent on the rifle and scope, and poof. Done. It wouldn't be "THAT HARD" to do. In theory. Don't need magical teleports, or nukes, or elementals or anything. heck you don't even need commandos or a military raid. Any "good ol boy" that grew up hunting could do it.

And... it's not that hard to get into the US. Anyone from a dozen other countries could come in through Mexico with little trouble. I mean Mexicans walk across the boarder in the 100s and 1000s every day. So any of our enemies could dream up this pretty simple plan and put it into motion.

But it hasn't yet happened (( and gods don't let it happen tomorrow after I type this as an example)). There are 1,000s and 1,000s of people that would love Obama dead, but... it doesn't happen. And not just for story reasons.

I suspect that the stories written by Kev and crew are much the same. While such "simple" plans might sound great when you type them out... it's never quite that easy when they're tried to implement.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's not that, exactly.
It's that if it were as easy as casting teleport and invisibility, and tip-toeing around a bit, the CS would never have gotten so big in the first place.
You can interpret the rules and setting in such a way that they mostly make sense, or you can interpret them in such a way where nothing makes sense.
Interpreting things so that a mage or three (or even a dozen) could pose a serious threat to the emperor of Chi-Town, on his home turf, is interpreting things so that nothing makes sense.

This is why it is Plot Armor.

In the scheme of the game, sure.
But you can do whatever you like in your own campaign, whether or not it makes sense.

The simple fact is that the reason you cannot do it is because it would muck up the storyline, not because the spread of existing spells and psionic powers would not make it possible.

Which is greater, 100 or x?
Which is more effective, existing spells we have written out for us, or unknown defenses that haven't been detailed?

And no, the CS did not have millions of troops in reserve.

I never read all of SoT, so if it mentions him pulling the 1.6 million SAMAS working for the ISS, along with accompanying ISS footsoldiers and other personnel, and sending them to the front lines, I withdraw my statement.

Do you realize that it is possible to Teleport: Superior to a location that you have only seen in a photograph, or only heard described?

Yup.
Do you realize that if you attempt a teleport with that sketchy of an idea where you're going, you only have an 80% or 20% chance of reaching the desired destination?

You do not need "coordinates"

Pie tastes good.

For whatever reason, Coalition is the bad guy that doesn't have to justify it's existence logically.

Them, and everybody else in this fictional setting where everything is made up.

One of the themes of Rifts is humanity's struggle to survive in the post-Cataclysmic world. But really, humanity does not seem to be having many problems

I guess that depends on how you define "humanity."

[Killer Cyborg]

clairvoyance isn't going to help you find the person. you might see that the person is in a dark room with stone or earthen walls and no exit, but that's only going to get you so far. it's not like clairvoyance gives you GPS co-ordinates for the person you see (assuming you even see the guy doing the teleporting... you're more likely to see the chi-town wall exploding, or something like that, with little to no indication of time frame)

Kind of.
But here are a few things to think about:
1. You might see the bomber before the attack. Which may mean you know what he looks like before he even goes to scout the location to teleport stuff to. You don't have to start looking for him when the attack starts, you can have a head start.
2. Psychics can attempt Clairvoyance 2x per day, with a success chance of 58%+2/level per attempt, +5% if the person person involved is a friend or loved one. Assuming an average of 2nd level, a CS psychic with this power would have up to two tries at 60% to detect this kind of thing, assuming they were trying.
This would get bumped up to 65% if a friend or loved-one is involved.
Of course, high-level psychics could have more like an 80-85% chance (10th level) or better.
3. If we're going to assume that mages have the basic intelligence needed to pull off this kind of attack, does it not make sense to likewise assume that the CS would have the basic intelligence to order (or heavily suggest) that unless a psychic's talents are otherwise occupied, all psychics living in the CS (who have this power) attempt twice per day to detect any serious threats to their beloved city?
(You haven't argued against the notion that somebody would pick up something with Clairvoyance, so I assume you're on board with the idea that somebody most likely would. If not, follow my musings in the spoiler below)

Spoiler:

Sure, not all psychics are going to have this power, but the CS has millions of citizens, and (going by the random psionics chart in RUE) 25% of them are going to be minor or major psychics.
One in three of these (going randomly) is going to have two powers from the Sensitive category.
Each of these people is going to have a 2 in 24 chance (roughly) of having the Clairvoyance power.
So even if the CS only had 1 million citizens, then roughly 250,000 of them would be psychics (not including Master psychics!), roughly 83,333 of which would have Sensitive powers, and roughly 6,944 of which would have the Clairvoyance power.
If only half of these psychics bothered to check daily for threats against their capital city, that's still 6,944 times per day that they're trying.
Which would averages about (given the assumption of an average of second level, as mentioned above) 4166 successful visions about the impending attack.
Now remember that this number is per million CS citizens.
Now remember that there are millions of Dog Boys living in the CS as well, 96% of whom automatically start with at least one undeclared Sensitive psychic power. So per 1 million Dog Boys, 960,000 of them are going to have an undeclared Sensitive power, 1 in 12 (more, really, because I'm not counting the mutations that start with more than one undeclared Sensitive power) of these are going to have Clairvoyance, which comes out to 80,000 Clairvoyant Dog Boys per million, which comes out to something like 52,000 successful visions per large-scale incident, assuming that the strong loyalty of Dog Boys gives them that +5% bonus when attempting to avert massive deaths of their beloved human masters.

So, not counting Psi-Stalkers or other Master Psychics, and not counting spontaneous visions that come through dreams, it's pretty safe to say that a successful attack on Chi-Town could be detected by hundreds of thousands of CS-loyal psychics.
Given that, I think it's safe to say that they're not ALL going to see exactly the same thing.
Even assuming massive overlap, you'll have at least tens of thousands of bits of information to go on.
Thousands of psychics might see the attacker scouting the location of the attack.
Thousands of psychics might get a good look at his face, from every possible angle.
Thousands of psychics might see the attack itself, giving thousands of clues to the exact time of day.
Thousands of psychics might see the underground layer. Some might see it being dug, some might see it before the attack, some might see it after the attack.
Thousands might see the bombs/missiles being used in the attack, which would give them information on the ordinance being used, which could help them figure out who is behind the assault, and track down the person(s) involved.
And so on.
More to the point, clairvoyance isn't always seeing; it's often feelings.
Some might feel that there's an elemental involved.
Some might feel that the attacker has emotions x, y, and z.
Some might feel that the attacker has a history of n.
Feelings are often more important than visions; they can give insight into the mind behind the attack, which could, with profiling and further investigation (not to mention other clues), lead to anticipating the lair's location.

and no, you're not going to have a hard time finding someone willing to do this. tolkeen is apparently full of mages who are more than happy to work with the daemonix, who are not exactly the nicest of beings. if they're willing to call up an army of beings who's idea of fun involves torturing, killing, and hurting sentient beings, then i don't think you're exactly worried about civilian casualties.

IIRC, they only did that toward the end of the war, by which time it would have been too late to launch any effective "let's teleport explosives at Chi-Town" kind of attack.
By the time they would have been too desperate, it would have been too late.
Also, it's one thing to conjure up demonic minions that might never be traced to you; it's another to engage in an assault on a city that is so full of psychics that your identity is bound to be well-known.

examining the target site from miles away should be easy. remember, this isn't just some chump mage, it's a mage backed by a nation which has lots of resources.

Assuming that these resources aren't otherwise engaged with other schemes.
Assuming that the nation would endorse such a dangerous plan that would include civilian casualties (perhaps even their own people).
Assuming a lot of things.

a superior invisible, flying mage is going to be nearly impossible to detect (essentially undetectable except to dog boys and psi-stalkers, and even that can be canceled by using mystic invisibility).

What's the duration on those spells again?

give him a decent telescope, and you should be fine (and for that matter, he can probably just go right near the area he wants to bomb in most cases) finding a mage who knows all this stuff shouldn't be a huge deal, because you've got magical schools and stuff like that... it costs 70k credits to buy knowledge of the spell in normal situations, but it costs 0 credits for the guy to teach it...

Actually, it costs something that mages all value in Rifts: secrecy.
Mages hoard their spells.
More importantly, it costs time.

meaning if it's important enough that someone should know a spell, it's very reasonable to suppose that they will know the spell (and hey, now you don't have to pay him as much salary because you've paid him in other forms of currency).

Right.
Somebody would know the spell(s).
Somebody would be willing to risk their own life.
Somebody would be willing to risk the lives of others.
Somebody would be willing to engage in this kind of covert attack.
Somebody would be trusted with the responsibility to make such an attack.
But there's nothing saying that it'd be the same person in each case.

finding people willing to bomb the CS is not likely to be hard. they've apparently got lots of fanatics who are (assuming i'm reading the fluff correctly) willing to sacrifice themselves to be fused into gigantic automatons, for example. also, as far as a mind melter going to mess up the guy doing the teleport bombing... there's not an awful lot a mind melter could do in that situation. they'd be limited to sensitive powers that affect the mind. not exactly a ton of options there (for the record, bio-manipulation is a physical power, and probably telemechanics is as well based on the fact that machine ghost is a physical power)

And yet, in spite of the large numbers of people in the Middle-East who hate us, and who are willing to die to kill us, they could only scrape together 19 people who apparently had all the necessary requirements, and they had at least one country to scour for qualified volunteers.
Tolkeen had pretty much just the one city.
Sure, maybe they could have found the right guy.
Then again, maybe they couldn't.

edit: also, i find it a bit absurd to assume that because not everyone in the tolkeen forces is military trained, that they therefore are completely incapable of working together, following orders, or thinking up clever ways to use their spells and abilities. if a few of us can sit here and think up potentially devastating uses of various abilities, how much more so will the people who use those abilities as a way of life be able to do so?

I agree with the first part.
But thinking up this kind of thing is easy.
DOING IT is something else.
We might be able to work on the details of this kind of thing together, but that doesn't mean that we'd work together very well, or trust each other, or be willing to carry it out.
I agree that them not being official military does NOT mean that they're completely incapable of competency, but it does mean that they'd be less efficient in such operations than a group that has been specifically trained to work together, follow orders, etc.

It's like I said before: such an attack could be successful.
But it could also fail, in a large number of ways, for a large number of reasons.

[Shark_Force]

where do they get the missiles and bombs? well, they've got a crudload of looted CS stuff that they weren't using, and i'm pretty sure that's explicitly stated.

where do they get the people to do it? honestly, nobody even has to give up the secrecy. make a TW device to do it, summon something that would get a kick out of this sort of thing (like a gargoylite), tell it that the stupid humans will never figure anything out (demons are explicitly quite likely to believe that sort of thing even without you telling them), and nobody has had to give up their secrecy (which i find doubtful that in the entire nation nobody would be willing to give up knowledge of a relatively common, minor spell, but whatever).

as far as comparing a mage that knows a level 6 spell to being a seal, ummmm. no. learning a level 6 spell is not difficult. this is more along the lines of "why don't they train everyone in the basics of using grenade launchersor other weapons issued to only certain members of the squad, even though they may not be assigned one", or "why don't they train every member of a tank crew to be able to perform in any position in the tank, not just the one they're assigned to". the answer? actually, i'd be very surprised if they don't. the seal equivalent would be more like level 13+ spells, or maybe even spells of legend, where it takes an exceptional mage to be able to even handle that much PPE all at once.

and actually, getting knocked back 200-1200 yards means absolutely nothing. who gives a crap? you figure out the point at which stuff gets knocked back. unless the distance at which the AMIR takes effect is random (and not just the distance it throws things away), you will very quickly find out where you can safely place things.

and actually, i don't see why it would be unusual at all for a mage to know all those three spells, and be willing to go do some scouting. they are not placing themselves at any meaningful risk. they are essentially undetectable. unless you happen to be so incredibly unlucky as to have a SAMAS fly right into you, they will never in a million years even know you're there. and unless that SAMAS is carrying a paint brush and painting the air in front of them while flying at a couple hundred miles per hour through the air, they're not going to be able to find you after the collision either. but even if this is a major concern, once again... this is a major center of techno-wizardry. it should be quite easy to make an effectively undetectable TW drone to do the scouting for you.

(and on a side note, i'm not entirely sure clairvoyance would allow you to even see someone cloaked in mystic invisibility... unless i'm remembering completely wrong, it makes you undetectable to any psychic or magic sense, no? so if they use mystic invisibility while doing their scouting, they won't be detected at that point. since you can't cast mystic invisibility on an attack, the attack itself would be detectable. and since the person launching the attack is proposed to be thousands of feet, or even a few miles, underground, i think it's reasonable to assume they aren't using mystic invisibility when they attack... but i would say that if you try to use clairvoyance regarding an attack on chi-town, you only get visual of the attack. you don't know when it's coming, you don't know how long you have to prepare, you probably shouldn't know who's launching it - you get to see the scene of the event, which is at chi-town, you just know that sometime, sooner or later, a bomb or missile will get through and hit chi-town)

i also find it a bit silly to presume that chi-town has a bajillion layers of ablative armor, and i also find it questionable to assume that all 200 AMIR devices are completely overlapping (on a side note, being underground they are incredibly vulnerable to earth elementals and warlocks should tolkeen ever figure out they're there, which seems likely - after all, tolkeen also has many psychics, and they can use clairvoyance to gain insight to a particular event - say, a teleport attack failing to enter the city)

furthermore, this is just one of many possible attacks. basically, to presume that the entire tolkeen army never seemed to even consider attacking the CS (and it doesn't have to be chi-town; if they start gutting fortresses, factories, farms, military depots, and other important targets all around the CS, you get much the same effect in terms of forcing the CS to pull back that many defenders). the CS *does* have 1.5 million SAMAS assigned to the ISS. it doesn't actually say how many people are in the ISS, and i suspect it is actually quite a bit lower (1.5 million ISS out of a population of 15 million or so which the CS has been stated to have would mean a truly absurd 1 in 10 people are police officers, which just seems like it would be *really* pushing it when you add in the number of people in the military... and of course, this again presumes that 1.5 million SAMAS being mothballed and another 1.5 million being assigned to the ISS was ever a reasonable number in the first place)

ultimately, there are just so many possible ways that tolkeen could have used (but didn't) to defend themselves or counterattack the CS. this is just one of them. out of the multitude of possibilities, it just seems absurd to suppose that not even one of them worked.

[Killer Cyborg]

where do they get the missiles and bombs? well, they've got a crudload of looted CS stuff that they weren't using, and i'm pretty sure that's explicitly stated.

Let me know if you find the passage, and quote it for me since I don't have the SoT books.

where do they get the people to do it? honestly, nobody even has to give up the secrecy.

I'm pretty sure they would, for reasons mentioned.

make a TW device to do it,

Easy answer.
Of course, the CS could just make a tech device that prevents the attack entirely, since we're apparently able to create new technology on-demand.

summon something that would get a kick out of this sort of thing (like a gargoylite), tell it that the stupid humans will never figure anything out (demons are explicitly quite likely to believe that sort of thing even without you telling them), and nobody has had to give up their secrecy (which i find doubtful that in the entire nation nobody would be willing to give up knowledge of a relatively common, minor spell, but whatever).

Unless the minion screws things up.
And/or is caught and/or interrogated.
And finding a qualified gargoylite would be about as hard as finding a qualified human.

(and on a side note, i'm not entirely sure clairvoyance would allow you to even see someone cloaked in mystic invisibility... unless i'm remembering completely wrong, it makes you undetectable to any psychic or magic sense, no?

Up to the GM. The spell is pretty vague.
Really, it says "all means of detection," but if taken literally they wouldn't be able to detect themselves, people wouldn't be able to notice the person bumping right into them, etc.
And there's the question of whether or not having a vision of somebody's future actions counts as "detecting" them.

so if they use mystic invisibility while doing their scouting, they won't be detected at that point.

Unless their PPE can be detected, or the CS has some clever means of indirectly detecting invisible people, or any number of things that may or may not happen.
So... maybe.

but i would say that if you try to use clairvoyance regarding an attack on chi-town, you only get visual of the attack

I wouldn't say that.
Even if I would, hell, just have psychics scan instead for "plans being made to attack" or some other phrasing that gives you a better picture.
Or a combination.

you don't know when it's coming, you don't know how long you have to prepare,

You might be surprised at how much information could come from even a few thousand visions of something.
Time of day can be judged by the sun. Time of night can sometimes be judged by the moon.
Not to mention stuff like traffic in the area and other factors that could be used in conjunction to come up with a good estimate, or even somebody spotting a clock or calendar in their vision.

you probably shouldn't know who's launching it - you get to see the scene of the event, which is at chi-town, you just know that sometime, sooner or later, a bomb or missile will get through and hit chi-town)

What you see is up to the GM.

i also find it a bit silly to presume that chi-town has a bajillion layers of ablative armor,

Why?

furthermore, this is just one of many possible attacks.

Right.
As these are just some of the possible reasons it could fail.

basically, to presume that the entire tolkeen army never seemed to even consider attacking the CS (and it doesn't have to be chi-town; if they start gutting fortresses, factories, farms, military depots, and other important targets all around the CS, you get much the same effect in terms of forcing the CS to pull back that many defenders).

If your point is that the SoT series was poorly written, you'll have no disagreement from me.
Both sides acted stupidly.

the CS *does* have 1.5 million SAMAS assigned to the ISS. it doesn't actually say how many people are in the ISS, and i suspect it is actually quite a bit lower

Actually, it's over 1.6 million SAMAS ("over 3.2 million PA-06A SAMAS are stockpiled; half are currently in use by the ISS and its subdivisions." CWC 113), and they're not just "assigned to the ISS," they're "currently in use by the ISS and its subdivisions"

If you flip over to p. 182 of CWC, you'll notice that the ISS Peacekeeper does not list a SAMAS as being part of his/her standard equipment.
Meaning that they typically don't use SAMAS armor.
Indicating that the 1.6 million SAMAS in use are for atypical operations or personnel.

(1.5 million ISS out of a population of 15 million or so which the CS has been stated to have would mean a truly absurd 1 in 10 people are police officers, which just seems like it would be *really* pushing it when you add in the number of people in the military... and of course, this again presumes that 1.5 million SAMAS being mothballed and another 1.5 million being assigned to the ISS was ever a reasonable number in the first place)

Well, they ARE a police state... but no, you're right, and you pointed me in the right direction.
I made the error of assuming in this conversation, even though I know better, that the ISS was operating entirely out of Chi-Town, but they're not; they cover all the cities in the CS.
So that 1.6 SAMAS is spread out across the Coalition States, NOT just in Chi-Town.
My bad.

Still, the place wouldn't be undefended; Chi-Town is by far the largest of the CS citystates, so it would have the largest chunk of those SAMAS, as well as all the normal ISS operatives, as well as dog boys and psi-stalkers.
There are 2.2 million non-citizens in the Burbs alone, and the CS would want to have a decent number of ISS troops just to keep the burbites in line.

ultimately, there are just so many possible ways that tolkeen could have used (but didn't) to defend themselves or counterattack the CS. this is just one of them. out of the multitude of possibilities, it just seems absurd to suppose that not even one of them worked.

Agreed.
For that matter, there are so many possible ways that the CS could have attacked Tolkeen, but didn't.
SoT was poorly written in many ways.

[Killer Cyborg]

For starters, where does this whole "AMI ring" concept come from exactly? Because I own a whole stack of Rifts books and have never seen it mentioned anywhere. This thing is being tossed around here as semi-canon yet I have never even seen it in books dealing with the Coalition or anywhere else.

Already addressed in this thread, I believe.
It's from a Rifter article. It's not canon.

Plus, and this is just a trivial detail, the top of Chi-Town appears to be open to the sky.

How so?

If the CS really is that powerful, then there is no need to feel sympathy for humanity in the post-Cataclysmic world because the CS is invincible.

You don't feel sorry for humanity when their best hope for survival are Nazis?

But then the invincibility is erratic. For example, Prosek is hesitant to take on either the Xiticix (who in practical terms could not pull off anywhere near so many tricks as Tolkeen) or Lazlo (who might genuinely be able to kick the CS's *** but would never be the ones to start the war). Emperor Prosek sips his tea and ponders his next war.

Not to get this back on topic or anything, but the CS is NOT invincible, just the biggest, baddest human power in North America.

The Xiticix, on the other hand, are scary.
By 109 PA, their population should be at least 1.2 billion, almost all of which are supernatural warriors as powerful as a human in light power armor.

[Pepsi Jedi]

where do they get the missiles and bombs? well, they've got a crudload of looted CS stuff that they weren't using, and i'm pretty sure that's explicitly stated.

Please show me where it's said that tolkeen has an almost endless supply of MD explosives to try this ploy?

where do they get the people to do it? honestly, nobody even has to give up the secrecy. make a TW device to do it, summon something that would get a kick out of this sort of thing (like a gargoylite), tell it that the stupid humans will never figure anything out (demons are explicitly quite likely to believe that sort of thing even without you telling them), and nobody has had to give up their secrecy (which i find doubtful that in the entire nation nobody would be willing to give up knowledge of a relatively common, minor spell, but whatever).

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here? Trick a demon into teaching the spell worth all that money? I don't know what you're goin' for with this to really reply to it. If you mean a gargoyle to try and get through the rings, they'd last about... 2 minutes. If that. Just getting close enough to try would mean they're DEEP in CS territory nd they kinda stand out. The first bounce back 200 to 2000 yards and here come the CS to kill the demon.

as far as comparing a mage that knows a level 6 spell to being a seal, ummmm. no. learning a level 6 spell is not difficult. this is more along the lines of "why don't they train everyone in the basics of using grenade launchersor other weapons issued to only certain members of the squad, even though they may not be assigned one", or "why don't they train every member of a tank crew to be able to perform in any position in the tank, not just the one they're assigned to". the answer? actually, i'd be very surprised if they don't. the seal equivalent would be more like level 13+ spells, or maybe even spells of legend, where it takes an exceptional mage to be able to even handle that much PPE all at once.

And that's part of the point. Noone's saying that the teleport spell doesn't exist. We're pointing out that it doesn't exist in conjunction to all the other cockamamie stuff that people are piling on to get their 'perfect solution'. And no. not every mage is going to learn the one spell just on the off chance of trying to use it to bomb an innocent populace at some point down the line.

and actually, getting knocked back 200-1200 yards means absolutely nothing. who gives a crap?

The guy flying 600 to 3,600 feet through the air and what ever solid objects are in the way? You're acting like they just float back gently and softly lower to the ground. It's like being hurled back at a PRETTY HIGH SPEED to fly 600 feet to 3,600 feet through the air. Mages dont' wear armor because it interferes with their spell casting and even if they did. crashing through walls like that and stuff would bang them up inside the armor. Who gives a crap? The squishy mage that just got flung over half a mile in a random direction?

Shark have you ever slid into a base playing baseball? thats 6... 8 feet.... now imagine being flung well over half a mile and landing, or being blasted through a half mile worth of buildings.

I'd say you'd very much care about it no matter whom you were.

you figure out the point at which stuff gets knocked back. unless the distance at which the AMIR takes effect is random (and not just the distance it throws things away), you will very quickly find out where you can safely place things.

1) They don't know why they're getting knocked back
2) The way to 'figure out' what point stuff gets knocked back.. you have to be trying to get through it that way... which means you're trying to teleport into a supercity or base. A pretty suicidal thing to do for any mage. Then you are being thrown back a random distance, highly Dazed... so.. you're not sure how far you flew. You just know where you land. Which could be over a half mile away, if you some how to not hit anything in the way and land in a soft meadow, it states clearly that it knocks mages for a loop and they have --no clue--- what just happened to them. "Testing the boundary" would give something to the effect of "When you try and teleport into a CS supercity, you get bounced back" Remember the circles aren't "under the edge of the wall" they range out. Chi has over 100 of them. You probably can't teleport that way with in 5 miles of Chi with out hitting the outter circle. and even if you walk across it and try it further in, there's literly dozens and dozens of more circles to try and bounce through then FOOOSH!! You're flying back 2 football fields to over a half mile through the air. I'd think one or two of thsoe and you're not gonna wanna try it, if you're legs and stuff arn't broken
and
3) So.. what are you going to do? Place all your stolen bombs 200 to 2000 yards out side the outer most ring to blow up? Might be pretty, and loud, but won't exactly crush the CS.

and actually, i don't see why it would be unusual at all for a mage to know all those three spells, and be willing to go do some scouting. they are not placing themselves at any meaningful risk. they are essentially undetectable. unless you happen to be so incredibly unlucky as to have a SAMAS fly right into you, they will never in a million years even know you're there. and unless that SAMAS is carrying a paint brush and painting the air in front of them while flying at a couple hundred miles per hour through the air, they're not going to be able to find you after the collision either. but even if this is a major concern, once again... this is a major center of techno-wizardry. it should be quite easy to make an effectively undetectable TW drone to do the scouting for you.

I'll admit I don't play mages so I'm not sure, but doe your spells render you totally unobservable to all manner of technology? Radar and the like? or is it just a visable spectrum?

As for those that want to do it, you seem to think wizards that have dedicated their lives to learning all these spells would be willing to fly 100s of miles into enemy territory on their own and take that risk.

Again, easy to say playing a video game. Harder to do if real people are the ones doing it.

(and on a side note, i'm not entirely sure clairvoyance would allow you to even see someone cloaked in mystic invisibility... unless i'm remembering completely wrong, it makes you undetectable to any psychic or magic sense, no? so if they use mystic invisibility while doing their scouting, they won't be detected at that point. since you can't cast mystic invisibility on an attack, the attack itself would be detectable. and since the person launching the attack is proposed to be thousands of feet, or even a few miles, underground, i think it's reasonable to assume they aren't using mystic invisibility when they attack... but i would say that if you try to use clairvoyance regarding an attack on chi-town, you only get visual of the attack. you don't know when it's coming, you don't know how long you have to prepare, you probably shouldn't know who's launching it - you get to see the scene of the event, which is at chi-town, you just know that sometime, sooner or later, a bomb or missile will get through and hit chi-town)

You're trying to 'letter of the rule' out of the 'intended use of the power'.

i also find it a bit silly to presume that chi-town has a bajillion layers of ablative armor,

Check the book, says 40 layers on the small base.
Each layer has 300 mdc.
And if you get it down to 299MDc, and hit it with a blast that does another 299mdc, that due to the nature of the ablative armor that last mdc takes the carry over. To hit the next level under it you need something that can surprass that limit. I.E. do 300 MDC -more- than the plate you're on, to get carry over. Other wise you have to go though each layer. And that's for 10 by 10 foot section of wall. If enemy forces start pouring that amount of ungodly firepower on one section of wall, the military is going to respond before you get through two or three layers. Much less all 40 of a small base (( how many more would chi town itself have?)). It doesn't need a billion layers. the 40 layers that the small bases have make it an effort in futility to try and blow through the wall. Most especially if you read up on the weapon emplacements ON the wall that would be blowing the crap out of you the entire time. That's not even counting the swarm of Sam's that would be eating your face, and all the other troops defending their home and people

and i also find it questionable to assume that all 200 AMIR devices are completely overlapping (on a side note, being underground they are incredibly vulnerable to earth elementals and warlocks should tolkeen ever figure out they're there, which seems likely - after all, tolkeen also has many psychics, and they can use clairvoyance to gain insight to a particular event - say, a teleport attack failing to enter the city)

Book says they over lap and are placed in a wide verity of crop cirle type designs. *Shrugs* As for your earth elementals, you're forgetting the main limitation of elementals. ____THEY ARE STUPID_______ and tolkeen has no reason to look for them, much less underground. You're using Out of Character information to even have that hint. 99.9999% of the CS don't know about them. I was flipping through Aftermath today (( While ridin' in the car on the way in town)) and i'd like to direct you to page 24

"Although used to deliver messages, spy and conduct searches, the effectiveness of Air elementes or any elemental put in this kind of situation is very limited. Remember elemental being are so completely alien that they have tremendous difficulty understanding directions or comprehending the human world. For example, only the most simple spoken message can be relayed, and only if there is someone who can speak Elemental. A written or taped message can be hand delivered, but the elemental may have difficulty recognizing or understanding exactly who is to get the message (unless it's a warlock) and it might go to the wrong person. Likewise, when instructed to find or recover 'refugees" or "Tolkeen warriors" trapped under debris, Elementas can NOT differentiate between them and CS troops or humanoid monsters for that matter, and certainly cannot tell the difference between the living and dead, especially if the living is unconscious.

It goes on to say "There re fewer thn fifty warlocks in Tolkeen capable of summoning true elemental beings, and half that number of shifters"

So again. You can't send your earth elemental to look for super super super top secret, rare, and unexplained technology that you have no clue exists. And even if you did, the book states the rings are hidden in sewers and what not.

Elementals can't even tell tolkeen troops from Cs troops or living troops from dead troops. They ----cannot---- find and figure out the AMI rings, even if sent to look for them, which they wouldn't be, because no one knows to even look for them underground and even if they did, that sort of thing is beyond their weird view of the world.

Elementals are dangerous when there's a warlock standing there going 'KILL THAT THING!!!" and pointing to it. It's very clear that independantly they're less intelligent (( in earth ways)) than a puppy.

"Kill anything in white and black armor" Ok.. maybe... "Go hunting though 100s of miles of enemy territory, all levels of the earth, underground, and find some top secret prototype type super tech"... no way in hades.

furthermore, this is just one of many possible attacks. basically, to presume that the entire tolkeen army never seemed to even consider attacking the CS (and it doesn't have to be chi-town; if they start gutting fortresses, factories, farms, military depots, and other important targets all around the CS, you get much the same effect in terms of forcing the CS to pull back that many defenders).

No.. the effect is the CS stomps your face in... You know. Like when they attacked and blew the hell out of Tolkeen, with out even this level of provication. attacking farms isn't going to send the CS running. It's going to make them come kick your teeth down your throat.

Like.... they did.

the CS *does* have 1.5 million SAMAS assigned to the ISS. it doesn't actually say how many people are in the ISS, and i suspect it is actually quite a bit lower (1.5 million ISS out of a population of 15 million or so which the CS has been stated to have would mean a truly absurd 1 in 10 people are police officers, which just seems like it would be *really* pushing it when you add in the number of people in the military... and of course, this again presumes that 1.5 million SAMAS being mothballed and another 1.5 million being assigned to the ISS was ever a reasonable number in the first place)

Numbers in rifts and stuff have always looked steep. Part of it is living in that level of a hostile environment I guess but yes, numbers have always been weird. I mean heck. The Manistique imperigum has something like 400,000 civilians and over 140,000 military? That's more than 1 in 4 people being a front line military troop. For.... a rather small nation that produces goods and stuff. (( NG producing most of the guns is across the way a bit))

ultimately, there are just so many possible ways that tolkeen could have used (but didn't) to defend themselves or counterattack the CS. this is just one of them. out of the multitude of possibilities, it just seems absurd to suppose that not even one of them worked.

No it's not. If you don't try, it's not going to work.

Not all plans are good ones, and some plans might have worked better than others if tried. But they were always fighting a defensive war. Not an offensive one. Many of your supplications involve them projecting forward, past enemy lines, getting deep in enemy territory, and having very select numbers of spells geared for one specific purpose. It's just not the way people grow naturally as people, and even if they did, you're not factoring in tons and tons of logistics to how it could be done or the consiquences. You seem to hand wave them with "Well there's plenty of people that hate the CS" Well yeah but when you line up 10 "Ifs' in a row to get your plan to work it becomes absurd. And lots of stuff simply doesn't work the way you think it does.

[csbioborg]

Okay assuming that the CS can't make a really good bunker buster

let's just assume they nuke the hell out of the bug lands killing all the surface bugs whatever
now the bug lands are a radiated mess
wouldn't all the bugs leaving the hive get radiation poisoning.
I am not suggesting that this would kill a hive but in certainly would be a good way to keep the numbers down and slowly starve them out.

[Killer Cyborg]

Invisibility: Superior does indeed make you invisible to radar and other tech sensors.

On the other hand, if the CS has any brains, they'll have psychics astrally patrolling the perimeter regularly.
And when they're astrally projecting, they can See The Invisible.

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay assuming that the CS can't make a really good bunker buster

let's just assume they nuke the hell out of the bug lands killing all the surface bugs whatever
now the bug lands are a radiated mess
wouldn't all the bugs leaving the hive get radiation poisoning.
I am not suggesting that this would kill a hive but in certainly would be a good way to keep the numbers down and slowly starve them out.

IIRC, the standard CS nukes aren't very dirty- they don't leave much radiation.
They could use dirty nukes, though, and it might well work. They could even make specifically dirty bombs/missiles to use.
But they'd certainly prefer NOT to; they're mentioned as not wanting to use dirty nukes because they want to conquer, not destroy.
Short of being backed into a very tight corner, they'd probably avoid using dirty nukes.

Also, I'm not sure how radiation would affect the bugs. They don't seem to have any listed immunity to radiation, but they're supernatural MDC creatures, and it's never really explained what exactly "Supernatural PE" does, as far as I recall.
It might protect them at least partially from the radiation.
As might their natural regenerative abilities.

Good thought.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Okay assuming that the CS can't make a really good bunker buster

let's just assume they nuke the hell out of the bug lands killing all the surface bugs whatever
now the bug lands are a radiated mess
wouldn't all the bugs leaving the hive get radiation poisoning.
I am not suggesting that this would kill a hive but in certainly would be a good way to keep the numbers down and slowly starve them out.

The book indicates no. In the direct write up on page 87, it speculates about massive nuclear bombardment leaving 35-55% of the bugs alive below the surface. Remember, earth is actually a good block against radiation and the bugs are dug in deep. The surface might glow. The upper chambers might. even down a few levels but below that the bugs would be fine. Their entire hive is made up of MDC re-enforced earth and they can produce MDC resin at will to re-enforce it even more.

If the CS nukes um till they glow, they'd get some of the surface (( but remember even that is iffy, the towers are many 1000 mdc per and as written the CS nukes aren't all that BA)) But even if they nuked the surface it'd be like trimming the fingernails of the beast. The queens below would just up production of warriors, dig a tunnel to the side and surface out side the blast radius. The same page says the CS knows that after the nukes they'd have to send in troops down into those tunnels and fight endlessly for every inch of the way, and kill the big queen, all the little queens and all the eggs to make sure one doesn't hatch into a queen. In other words, everything has to die to ensure they don't start over. The same page also says the CS realizes, that once they start. They're committed to total destruction of the bugs, till every last one is dead. Or nothing at all. That massive military effort on the CS part would make he bugs paint them as "Kill on sight' forever more, and with the CS troops, armor, vehicles being so stylized, it'd be very easy for them to just kill anything looking remotely CS, and if the CS didn't finish the job, the bugs would come pouring down to kll THEM. Full deployment on the scale needed to kill the bugs, would lock up the CS troops and leave them pretty much pants down from everything else.

[csbioborg]

if 35-55% is the actual number that is really good
If you kill off half of them its going to take awhile fo them to comeback and they won't be worried about CS territory for awhile

that's the thing if you drop bombs from a miles up you haven't commited to anything
its not like the bugs know it was you
its when you actually start commiting troops that your comited for good

[Pepsi Jedi]

if 35-55% is the actual number that is really good
If you kill off half of them its going to take awhile fo them to comeback and they won't be worried about CS territory for awhile

that's the thing if you drop bombs from a miles up you haven't commited to anything
its not like the bugs know it was you
its when you actually start commiting troops that your comited for good

50% of over a billion is still over a half billion MDC Supernatural warriors with a single mindset to find and destroy you.

And they fly... and constantly patrol. How constant? They have billions of troops, most of which can fly.... lol And we call them 'bugs' but they're not stupid. Their minimum IQ is 9, and it's supernatural predator type but it's still enough to function... as a supernatural predator. fly, and shoot TK rifles. as they have guns, they can understand the concept of them. And if you come flying towards the hivelands they're going to fly up to see what you're doing ect.

[csbioborg]

A jet plane flying at mach 3 a few miles up is not going to be noticed in time by a bug

this is about containment not beating them
that's the whole point if your the CS and your weakened by Tolkeen
you want the bugs to not want to expand
while you regroup

[Killer Cyborg]

A jet plane flying at mach 3 a few miles up is not going to be noticed in time by a bug

Agreed. There is a listed limit on how high they can fly, and a 4000' range for their weapons.
High-flying bombers can hit them with impunity, although there's only so much you can accomplish with bombs.

this is about containment not beating them
that's the whole point if your the CS and your weakened by Tolkeen
you want the bugs to not want to expand
while you regroup

The thing is, going by what I remember of The Xiticix and The Green Death, that level of attack would sent the bugs swarming towards chi-town.
500 million angry superbugs would pose a threat even to the Coalition.

[Faceless Dude]

There have been a couple issues discussed here in this thread. I have a couple thoughts on both of them

First, the Bug war. This was much like the Mechanoid Invasion, Nxla, the Lord of the deep, ARCHIE, and whatever other "Big Bads" that have slipped my mind. They are broad-spectrum plot points seeded thorughout the game giving enterprising GMs a canvas in which to paint their camapigns. Want to run a game where the bugs are actively encroaching on the human lands? Here's their stats and what they are likely to do. Have at it. Just because all of these things exist in the same area doesn't mean that they are all boiling over all at once.

This is reinforced in the last word written about the Xiticix (gods I hate that name): which was in the updated sourcebook 1 from 2007. It harkens back to the prophecy that alludes to the bugs being the last Great Danger, or the Devourer or the Swarm. It says that it might one day be a problem, but it isn't today. And lists other, tactically bigger problems that the other major poweres have on their place. The Translation to me? There's a mysterious nation of bugs on humanity's back porch. Include it in your campaigns as you will. Enjoy.



I also want to address the magic-terrorist and why they havent levelled the CS yet. First, I was not aware of this Anti-teleportation thing build around the major cities, but I'm not suprised that it's there. It does solve a few problems like this. But who is to say that it's magical anyway? About the same time Rifts was going to the printer, Transdimensional TMNT allowed you to create technological time tavelling or dimension-hopping vehicles. Who's to say someone with that knowledge couldn't create something technological that locked down teleportation or other dimensional access to a given area? It might also limit your ability to summon within the walls so no sneaking a Warlock into Chi-Town, summoning an Air elemental and having it go to town.

Anyway, just my two credits.

[Pepsi Jedi]

There have been a couple issues discussed here in this thread. I have a couple thoughts on both of them

First, the Bug war. This was much like the Mechanoid Invasion, Nxla, the Lord of the deep, ARCHIE, and whatever other "Big Bads" that have slipped my mind. They are broad-spectrum plot points seeded thorughout the game giving enterprising GMs a canvas in which to paint their camapigns. Want to run a game where the bugs are actively encroaching on the human lands? Here's their stats and what they are likely to do. Have at it. Just because all of these things exist in the same area doesn't mean that they are all boiling over all at once.

This is reinforced in the last word written about the Xiticix (gods I hate that name): which was in the updated sourcebook 1 from 2007. It harkens back to the prophecy that alludes to the bugs being the last Great Danger, or the Devourer or the Swarm. It says that it might one day be a problem, but it isn't today. And lists other, tactically bigger problems that the other major poweres have on their place. The Translation to me? There's a mysterious nation of bugs on humanity's back porch. Include it in your campaigns as you will. Enjoy.



I also want to address the magic-terrorist and why they havent levelled the CS yet. First, I was not aware of this Anti-teleportation thing build around the major cities, but I'm not suprised that it's there. It does solve a few problems like this. But who is to say that it's magical anyway? About the same time Rifts was going to the printer, Transdimensional TMNT allowed you to create technological time tavelling or dimension-hopping vehicles. Who's to say someone with that knowledge couldn't create something technological that locked down teleportation or other dimensional access to a given area? It might also limit your ability to summon within the walls so no sneaking a Warlock into Chi-Town, summoning an Air elemental and having it go to town.

Anyway, just my two credits.

For the bugs, the thing is they're a creeping threat. They're up in territory that... noone really "Wants' just now and they're usually only a problem if you get too close to them.

The bigger problem is that they're beeding... like bugs and the looming threat is huge. By the time they're knocking on Chi-town's door, it's way way too late and there's 5 billion of them lookin' for dinner. That's why they're dangerous. Noone really wants to mess with them and there's just soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many of them.

They're still mentioned in Aftermath (( the update for 'all' of rifts)) as a huge major looming problem that SOMEONE had better address least everyone die.

As for the AMI, It's actually not magical. the AMI is technological. The CS got "Help" Developing it. (( and didn't say from where but it was hinted maybe vanguard.. which means maybe somewhere else)) but it's purely technological. Not even techno wizardry. It also says that the CS doesn't fully understand WHY it works. Just that it DOES. (( we actually have tech like this now. scientists can't fully explain how Cell systems work and the more advanced stuff. THey just know it does))

[Pepsi Jedi]

A jet plane flying at mach 3 a few miles up is not going to be noticed in time by a bug

Agreed. There is a listed limit on how high they can fly, and a 4000' range for their weapons.
High-flying bombers can hit them with impunity, although there's only so much you can accomplish with bombs.

this is about containment not beating them
that's the whole point if your the CS and your weakened by Tolkeen
you want the bugs to not want to expand
while you regroup[/quot

The thing is, going by what I remember of The Xiticix and The Green Death, that level of attack would sent the bugs swarming towards chi-town.
500 million angry superbugs would pose a threat even to the Coalition.

Thing is, the bugs are up and flying all the time, being a flying speices they ARE going to notice it. Now flying way on up there, the bugs might not be able to engage but they'll see what's going down. Momma bug has an IQ between 21 to 26. She can figure out "Plane" and "bomb"

And yeah, the same page I quoted says that, if you nuke um, when they bore through the glass they're gonna come to kick your teeth in.

[Faceless Dude]

For the bugs, the thing is they're a creeping threat. They're up in territory that... noone really "Wants' just now and they're usually only a problem if you get too close to them.

The bigger problem is that they're beeding... like bugs and the looming threat is huge. By the time they're knocking on Chi-town's door, it's way way too late and there's 5 billion of them lookin' for dinner. That's why they're dangerous. Noone really wants to mess with them and there's just soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many of them.

They're still mentioned in Aftermath (( the update for 'all' of rifts)) as a huge major looming problem that SOMEONE had better address least everyone die.

As for the AMI, It's actually not magical. the AMI is technological. The CS got "Help" Developing it. (( and didn't say from where but it was hinted maybe vanguard.. which means maybe somewhere else)) but it's purely technological. Not even techno wizardry. It also says that the CS doesn't fully understand WHY it works. Just that it DOES. (( we actually have tech like this now. scientists can't fully explain how Cell systems work and the more advanced stuff. THey just know it does))

Is this AMI addressed in a sourcebook somewhere? There is much about this game that I think I know and then don't.


Also, going back to the "nuclear option" against the bugs. They have stated that U-rounds muck up a supernatural being's systems, so they can't heal, etc. Have they stated anywhere if it's Uranium in particular that does this, or if it's radiation in general? If it's answer B, a radioactive "fence" might act as a deterrent, if the Bugs do move to hold them off long enough to marshal your forces. Or to herd them in a direction you don't care about, like, west. It's a crude solution and will have devastating and far-reaching consequences, but desperate times, and all that.

[Pepsi Jedi]

For the bugs, the thing is they're a creeping threat. They're up in territory that... noone really "Wants' just now and they're usually only a problem if you get too close to them.

The bigger problem is that they're beeding... like bugs and the looming threat is huge. By the time they're knocking on Chi-town's door, it's way way too late and there's 5 billion of them lookin' for dinner. That's why they're dangerous. Noone really wants to mess with them and there's just soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many of them.

They're still mentioned in Aftermath (( the update for 'all' of rifts)) as a huge major looming problem that SOMEONE had better address least everyone die.

As for the AMI, It's actually not magical. the AMI is technological. The CS got "Help" Developing it. (( and didn't say from where but it was hinted maybe vanguard.. which means maybe somewhere else)) but it's purely technological. Not even techno wizardry. It also says that the CS doesn't fully understand WHY it works. Just that it DOES. (( we actually have tech like this now. scientists can't fully explain how Cell systems work and the more advanced stuff. THey just know it does))

Is this AMI addressed in a sourcebook somewhere? There is much about this game that I think I know and then don't.


Also, going back to the "nuclear option" against the bugs. They have stated that U-rounds muck up a supernatural being's systems, so they can't heal, etc. Have they stated anywhere if it's Uranium in particular that does this, or if it's radiation in general? If it's answer B, a radioactive "fence" might act as a deterrent, if the Bugs do move to hold them off long enough to marshal your forces. Or to herd them in a direction you don't care about, like, west. It's a crude solution and will have devastating and far-reaching consequences, but desperate times, and all that.

The AMI is in two rifters, um... I wanna say 37 and 54? The first instance was in reference to the rift study group and it mentions them there and how Chi town had over 100 ami rings. The mention in 54 (( much a reprint with maybe two or three sentences difference)) Is in conjunction to the new supercity New Chillichote (Sp?)

You can also find the stats for the ablative armor there

And the wall guns for new Chillichote (( and implys they're tiny compaired to the ones at bigger cities like Chi.))

It's also got stats for Archie Jr that the CS has developed. (( Jack. lol)) and all his siblings.

[csbioborg]

A jet plane flying at mach 3 a few miles up is not going to be noticed in time by a bug

Agreed. There is a listed limit on how high they can fly, and a 4000' range for their weapons.
High-flying bombers can hit them with impunity, although there's only so much you can accomplish with bombs.

this is about containment not beating them
that's the whole point if your the CS and your weakened by Tolkeen
you want the bugs to not want to expand
while you regroup[/quot

The thing is, going by what I remember of The Xiticix and The Green Death, that level of attack would sent the bugs swarming towards chi-town.
500 million angry superbugs would pose a threat even to the Coalition.

Thing is, the bugs are up and flying all the time, being a flying speices they ARE going to notice it. Now flying way on up there, the bugs might not be able to engage but they'll see what's going down. Momma bug has an IQ between 21 to 26. She can figure out "Plane" and "bomb"

And yeah, the same page I quoted says that, if you nuke um, when they bore through the glass they're gonna come to kick your teeth in.

How would the CS know that?

[Pepsi Jedi]

A jet plane flying at mach 3 a few miles up is not going to be noticed in time by a bug

Agreed. There is a listed limit on how high they can fly, and a 4000' range for their weapons.
High-flying bombers can hit them with impunity, although there's only so much you can accomplish with bombs.

this is about containment not beating them
that's the whole point if your the CS and your weakened by Tolkeen
you want the bugs to not want to expand
while you regroup[/quot

The thing is, going by what I remember of The Xiticix and The Green Death, that level of attack would sent the bugs swarming towards chi-town.
500 million angry superbugs would pose a threat even to the Coalition.

Thing is, the bugs are up and flying all the time, being a flying speices they ARE going to notice it. Now flying way on up there, the bugs might not be able to engage but they'll see what's going down. Momma bug has an IQ between 21 to 26. She can figure out "Plane" and "bomb"

And yeah, the same page I quoted says that, if you nuke um, when they bore through the glass they're gonna come to kick your teeth in.

How would the CS know that?

Check the page. Seems the CS has been doing some pretty indepth study into the bugs. Including sending more than one mission down into a hive, with running real time video, watching them fight inch for inch till every one of them died. Going over the footage... and doing it again. lol said once they even got to one of the rooms with a young queen (( not MOMMA BUG)).

[Shark_Force]

where do they get the missiles and bombs? well, they've got a crudload of looted CS stuff that they weren't using, and i'm pretty sure that's explicitly stated.

Please show me where it's said that tolkeen has an almost endless supply of MD explosives to try this ploy?

where do they get the people to do it? honestly, nobody even has to give up the secrecy. make a TW device to do it, summon something that would get a kick out of this sort of thing (like a gargoylite), tell it that the stupid humans will never figure anything out (demons are explicitly quite likely to believe that sort of thing even without you telling them), and nobody has had to give up their secrecy (which i find doubtful that in the entire nation nobody would be willing to give up knowledge of a relatively common, minor spell, but whatever).

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here? Trick a demon into teaching the spell worth all that money? I don't know what you're goin' for with this to really reply to it. If you mean a gargoyle to try and get through the rings, they'd last about... 2 minutes. If that. Just getting close enough to try would mean they're DEEP in CS territory nd they kinda stand out. The first bounce back 200 to 2000 yards and here come the CS to kill the demon.

as far as comparing a mage that knows a level 6 spell to being a seal, ummmm. no. learning a level 6 spell is not difficult. this is more along the lines of "why don't they train everyone in the basics of using grenade launchersor other weapons issued to only certain members of the squad, even though they may not be assigned one", or "why don't they train every member of a tank crew to be able to perform in any position in the tank, not just the one they're assigned to". the answer? actually, i'd be very surprised if they don't. the seal equivalent would be more like level 13+ spells, or maybe even spells of legend, where it takes an exceptional mage to be able to even handle that much PPE all at once.

And that's part of the point. Noone's saying that the teleport spell doesn't exist. We're pointing out that it doesn't exist in conjunction to all the other cockamamie stuff that people are piling on to get their 'perfect solution'. And no. not every mage is going to learn the one spell just on the off chance of trying to use it to bomb an innocent populace at some point down the line.

and actually, getting knocked back 200-1200 yards means absolutely nothing. who gives a crap?

The guy flying 600 to 3,600 feet through the air and what ever solid objects are in the way? You're acting like they just float back gently and softly lower to the ground. It's like being hurled back at a PRETTY HIGH SPEED to fly 600 feet to 3,600 feet through the air. Mages dont' wear armor because it interferes with their spell casting and even if they did. crashing through walls like that and stuff would bang them up inside the armor. Who gives a crap? The squishy mage that just got flung over half a mile in a random direction?

Shark have you ever slid into a base playing baseball? thats 6... 8 feet.... now imagine being flung well over half a mile and landing, or being blasted through a half mile worth of buildings.

I'd say you'd very much care about it no matter whom you were.

you figure out the point at which stuff gets knocked back. unless the distance at which the AMIR takes effect is random (and not just the distance it throws things away), you will very quickly find out where you can safely place things.

1) They don't know why they're getting knocked back
2) The way to 'figure out' what point stuff gets knocked back.. you have to be trying to get through it that way... which means you're trying to teleport into a supercity or base. A pretty suicidal thing to do for any mage. Then you are being thrown back a random distance, highly Dazed... so.. you're not sure how far you flew. You just know where you land. Which could be over a half mile away, if you some how to not hit anything in the way and land in a soft meadow, it states clearly that it knocks mages for a loop and they have --no clue--- what just happened to them. "Testing the boundary" would give something to the effect of "When you try and teleport into a CS supercity, you get bounced back" Remember the circles aren't "under the edge of the wall" they range out. Chi has over 100 of them. You probably can't teleport that way with in 5 miles of Chi with out hitting the outter circle. and even if you walk across it and try it further in, there's literly dozens and dozens of more circles to try and bounce through then FOOOSH!! You're flying back 2 football fields to over a half mile through the air. I'd think one or two of thsoe and you're not gonna wanna try it, if you're legs and stuff arn't broken
and
3) So.. what are you going to do? Place all your stolen bombs 200 to 2000 yards out side the outer most ring to blow up? Might be pretty, and loud, but won't exactly crush the CS.

and actually, i don't see why it would be unusual at all for a mage to know all those three spells, and be willing to go do some scouting. they are not placing themselves at any meaningful risk. they are essentially undetectable. unless you happen to be so incredibly unlucky as to have a SAMAS fly right into you, they will never in a million years even know you're there. and unless that SAMAS is carrying a paint brush and painting the air in front of them while flying at a couple hundred miles per hour through the air, they're not going to be able to find you after the collision either. but even if this is a major concern, once again... this is a major center of techno-wizardry. it should be quite easy to make an effectively undetectable TW drone to do the scouting for you.

I'll admit I don't play mages so I'm not sure, but doe your spells render you totally unobservable to all manner of technology? Radar and the like? or is it just a visable spectrum?

As for those that want to do it, you seem to think wizards that have dedicated their lives to learning all these spells would be willing to fly 100s of miles into enemy territory on their own and take that risk.

Again, easy to say playing a video game. Harder to do if real people are the ones doing it.

(and on a side note, i'm not entirely sure clairvoyance would allow you to even see someone cloaked in mystic invisibility... unless i'm remembering completely wrong, it makes you undetectable to any psychic or magic sense, no? so if they use mystic invisibility while doing their scouting, they won't be detected at that point. since you can't cast mystic invisibility on an attack, the attack itself would be detectable. and since the person launching the attack is proposed to be thousands of feet, or even a few miles, underground, i think it's reasonable to assume they aren't using mystic invisibility when they attack... but i would say that if you try to use clairvoyance regarding an attack on chi-town, you only get visual of the attack. you don't know when it's coming, you don't know how long you have to prepare, you probably shouldn't know who's launching it - you get to see the scene of the event, which is at chi-town, you just know that sometime, sooner or later, a bomb or missile will get through and hit chi-town)

You're trying to 'letter of the rule' out of the 'intended use of the power'.

i also find it a bit silly to presume that chi-town has a bajillion layers of ablative armor,

Check the book, says 40 layers on the small base.
Each layer has 300 mdc.
And if you get it down to 299MDc, and hit it with a blast that does another 299mdc, that due to the nature of the ablative armor that last mdc takes the carry over. To hit the next level under it you need something that can surprass that limit. I.E. do 300 MDC -more- than the plate you're on, to get carry over. Other wise you have to go though each layer. And that's for 10 by 10 foot section of wall. If enemy forces start pouring that amount of ungodly firepower on one section of wall, the military is going to respond before you get through two or three layers. Much less all 40 of a small base (( how many more would chi town itself have?)). It doesn't need a billion layers. the 40 layers that the small bases have make it an effort in futility to try and blow through the wall. Most especially if you read up on the weapon emplacements ON the wall that would be blowing the crap out of you the entire time. That's not even counting the swarm of Sam's that would be eating your face, and all the other troops defending their home and people

and i also find it questionable to assume that all 200 AMIR devices are completely overlapping (on a side note, being underground they are incredibly vulnerable to earth elementals and warlocks should tolkeen ever figure out they're there, which seems likely - after all, tolkeen also has many psychics, and they can use clairvoyance to gain insight to a particular event - say, a teleport attack failing to enter the city)

Book says they over lap and are placed in a wide verity of crop cirle type designs. *Shrugs* As for your earth elementals, you're forgetting the main limitation of elementals. ____THEY ARE STUPID_______ and tolkeen has no reason to look for them, much less underground. You're using Out of Character information to even have that hint. 99.9999% of the CS don't know about them. I was flipping through Aftermath today (( While ridin' in the car on the way in town)) and i'd like to direct you to page 24

"Although used to deliver messages, spy and conduct searches, the effectiveness of Air elementes or any elemental put in this kind of situation is very limited. Remember elemental being are so completely alien that they have tremendous difficulty understanding directions or comprehending the human world. For example, only the most simple spoken message can be relayed, and only if there is someone who can speak Elemental. A written or taped message can be hand delivered, but the elemental may have difficulty recognizing or understanding exactly who is to get the message (unless it's a warlock) and it might go to the wrong person. Likewise, when instructed to find or recover 'refugees" or "Tolkeen warriors" trapped under debris, Elementas can NOT differentiate between them and CS troops or humanoid monsters for that matter, and certainly cannot tell the difference between the living and dead, especially if the living is unconscious.

It goes on to say "There re fewer thn fifty warlocks in Tolkeen capable of summoning true elemental beings, and half that number of shifters"

So again. You can't send your earth elemental to look for super super super top secret, rare, and unexplained technology that you have no clue exists. And even if you did, the book states the rings are hidden in sewers and what not.

Elementals can't even tell tolkeen troops from Cs troops or living troops from dead troops. They ----cannot---- find and figure out the AMI rings, even if sent to look for them, which they wouldn't be, because no one knows to even look for them underground and even if they did, that sort of thing is beyond their weird view of the world.

Elementals are dangerous when there's a warlock standing there going 'KILL THAT THING!!!" and pointing to it. It's very clear that independantly they're less intelligent (( in earth ways)) than a puppy.

"Kill anything in white and black armor" Ok.. maybe... "Go hunting though 100s of miles of enemy territory, all levels of the earth, underground, and find some top secret prototype type super tech"... no way in hades.

furthermore, this is just one of many possible attacks. basically, to presume that the entire tolkeen army never seemed to even consider attacking the CS (and it doesn't have to be chi-town; if they start gutting fortresses, factories, farms, military depots, and other important targets all around the CS, you get much the same effect in terms of forcing the CS to pull back that many defenders).

No.. the effect is the CS stomps your face in... You know. Like when they attacked and blew the hell out of Tolkeen, with out even this level of provication. attacking farms isn't going to send the CS running. It's going to make them come kick your teeth down your throat.

Like.... they did.

the CS *does* have 1.5 million SAMAS assigned to the ISS. it doesn't actually say how many people are in the ISS, and i suspect it is actually quite a bit lower (1.5 million ISS out of a population of 15 million or so which the CS has been stated to have would mean a truly absurd 1 in 10 people are police officers, which just seems like it would be *really* pushing it when you add in the number of people in the military... and of course, this again presumes that 1.5 million SAMAS being mothballed and another 1.5 million being assigned to the ISS was ever a reasonable number in the first place)

Numbers in rifts and stuff have always looked steep. Part of it is living in that level of a hostile environment I guess but yes, numbers have always been weird. I mean heck. The Manistique imperigum has something like 400,000 civilians and over 140,000 military? That's more than 1 in 4 people being a front line military troop. For.... a rather small nation that produces goods and stuff. (( NG producing most of the guns is across the way a bit))

ultimately, there are just so many possible ways that tolkeen could have used (but didn't) to defend themselves or counterattack the CS. this is just one of them. out of the multitude of possibilities, it just seems absurd to suppose that not even one of them worked.

No it's not. If you don't try, it's not going to work.

Not all plans are good ones, and some plans might have worked better than others if tried. But they were always fighting a defensive war. Not an offensive one. Many of your supplications involve them projecting forward, past enemy lines, getting deep in enemy territory, and having very select numbers of spells geared for one specific purpose. It's just not the way people grow naturally as people, and even if they did, you're not factoring in tons and tons of logistics to how it could be done or the consiquences. You seem to hand wave them with "Well there's plenty of people that hate the CS" Well yeah but when you line up 10 "Ifs' in a row to get your plan to work it becomes absurd. And lots of stuff simply doesn't work the way you think it does.

the bombs? i don't have those books atm (a friend had them, then moved). i may be wrong on them having massive numbers (although i do recall them having large amounts of salvaged stuff in general, since tolkeen forces don't generally make use of the supplies). however, since they have access to the whole megaverse, it should be trivial to sell their scavenged gear and buy bombs. lots of them. a simple hand grenade is quite cheap, and individually will do little to nothing. buy a few million of them, on the other hand, and it will do quite a bit. or, you can buy fusion blocks, or any number of other things. whatever you like, really (heck, if you want to be really mean, make a magical bomb that bonds molecularly with the wall and then uses some dimensional magic and see what happens when their defenses against teleportation tries to rip a chunk out of their walls). and, even ignoring the scavenging, they're a major center of techno-wizardry... make a machine that produces fire globes, and let the sky rain fire. this machine can be powered by a ley line, and need not require any magical effort on the part of the operator at all. no exhaustion, no requirement of skilled labor, just some guy packing the globes into a box (or whatever container you like) and sending it off to be dropped on chi-town or any of dozens of possible important military targets (the vast majority of which actually have precisely zero AMIR defences, and won't require nearly the same level of preparation).

that said, what kind of idiot does a test run with a live bomb? apparently the same kind of moron who thinks they're going to send magicians in to test where the limit of the AMIR is. why does it not matter how far the AMIR launches you? because that does absolutely nothing whatsoever in terms of figuring out when it kicks in. if you bother using very simple reasoning, this is patently obvious.

it shouldn't take a damn rocket scientist to figure out that you send a rock (or a simple radio broadcast device) in. when the rock doesn't get launched, you know you put it someplace beyond the reach of the device. it's that bloody simple. i don't give a damn if the stupid thing launches the teleported object a billion miles into space at 99% of the speed of light, it still doesn't prevent a very simple, straightforward experiment from figuring out where the boundary is. reaction --> within range. no reaction --> not in range, feel free to use this as a starting point for your missile (or a bomb, if you just place it up in the air... unless of course you're arguing that there's an infinitely long cylinder of space immune to being teleported being rotated throughout the entire galaxy once per day, there must be a top somewhere). there is no guy flying hundreds of feet through the air to be killed. there is a rock. a completely ordinary (apart from being teleported), inert, mineral object which is essentially valueless, and which the CS can feel free to blast with as many missiles, grenades, laser blasts, and other weapons as they like.

also, did you even read what i said? use a damn TW device. no teaching required, no spell knowledge required. where the hell did you even begin to think that i said anything about learning lesser teleport from a gargoylite (which, to my knowledge, does not actually know the spell). i said you could get a gargoylite, which is an extremely expendable minion (there's plenty more where it came from), give it the TW bomber machine, and let it rain down hell. it requires no special qualifications, they're quite capable of operating TW devices, as are any number of creatures that have even the tiniest bit of spellcasting or psychic ability. i never once said the demon was going to teach anything, or that anyone was going to be taught, in that post.

also, there's this idiotic assumption that because they don't know *why* they're getting launched back (which killer cyborg has demonstrated clearly they could find out trivially, once they know that stuff is getting launched back), that they somehow are completely incapable of responding to the fact that they *are* getting launched back. cave men may not be able to explain much about gravity and how all objects exert some amount of pull on each other because of it's force, but i bet they can figure out that if they step off a cliff they plummet to their death. the fact that they can't explain the science behind why they can fall does not somehow prevent them from figuring out that if they don't step off a cliff, they won't fall to the bottom of it. they don't need to understand what the force is, they just need to know where it is. don't teleport within a certain area, and you won't get launched. problem solved.

mystic invisibility prevents all forms of magical and psychic detection from seeing you. there is nothing "letter of the rule but not the spirit of it" about assuming that it prevents a psionic power (clairvoyance) from detecting you. that's what the spell does. it doesn't say it might protect from some forms, it says it *does* protect from all forms.

furthermore, this is again ignoring the fact that there are plenty of places which tolkeen can attack which are not chi-town. places which don't even have non-canon rifter articles telling us they have AMIR devices (in fact, as i understand it, it's explicitly *only* chi-town which has them), yet would absolutely require protection. it really doesn't matter so much *where* tolkeen takes the offensive (although i do believe i've demonstrated at least a few simple strategies tolkeen could have developed over the many many many years when they were preparing for the CS to attack them), just that they do, and that doing so would mean that the CS is either going to be sending it's troops to battle with no repairs, no weapon reloads, no food, no fuel, etc... or they will have to stay at home to defend themselves. whether the target is chi-town or the dozens of factories, mines, refineries, ammunition depots, warehouses, and other essential infrastructure the CS needs in order to wage war for more than a few weeks is not even particularly relevant.

while some of the rings may overlap, it's a bit questionable to assume that *all* of them overlap. most likely, only 1 or maybe 2 protect most places, with even the most secure likely getting only 3-4.

as far as elementals being stupid, no they aren't. they're differently intelligent. and it just so happens that if you find out where an underground object is (which most likely they eventually will), an earth elemental is not going to have a hard time figuring out the order to go destroy it. it doesn't take a lot of brains for them to travel to it underground (and since that's where it is, they'll have every reason to go there and no reason not to), and once there they just start smashing things until it breaks. if you think an earth elemental is so stupid they can't figure out that sort of order, then perhaps that would explain why you seem to think that tolkeen consists of nothing but drooling idiots who can't plan ahead, work together, or come up with ideas on how to use the things they are capable of doing to protect themselves, their families, their homes, etc.

then there's this absurd assumption that you need to summon a true elemental being (ie the full intelligence, not the splinter that a minor or major elemental represents). and there's this assumption that you're going to send the elemental to go on a scouting mission. you don't have to. it will very shortly become apparent that something is there. eventually, using killer cyborg's simple clairvoyance technique, they will figure out that it is underground. and then they send in the earth elementals to wreck it. after all, those elementals *are* being directed by intelligent human beings. the fact that you can't send them to scout or deliver messages isn't pertinent. you CAN send them to go smash things, just so long as you know what to smash. and that shouldn't even be terribly difficult to figure out, if it becomes important (and again, this is dealing with a defense that only one place in the entire CS has). will they recognise it as a top secret prototype? probably not. will they be able to recognise the thing that is made out of almost solid metals that surrounds the city when pretty much everything else around is not? well, they very likely will. but hey, if you still think that's a problem, you can also just hand them a bomb, and tell them to deliver it into the tunnels underneath chi-town. the way to deal with these details is available. if you aren't even going to bother thinking for a few seconds how to get around them, then you really shouldn't declare them to be impenetrable barriers.

and if you think the CS can just somehow magically continue to function without it's infrastructure to support the military, then you must be delusional. the CS didn't just march up to tolkeen, kick in the doors, and have a party. they gradually, after being repeatedly ambushed, slowed down, and even defeated in a major battle, somehow spontaneously with absolutely no justification show up on the doorstep of tolkeen with no troubles after YEARS of campaigning. no, once they're at the doorstep, you can't start doing this. but if you do it during the months and years leading up to this point, when it was a war of attrition and you can keep the other side from getting replacements for their equipment, food to eat, medical supplies, etc, then the CS is going to have a problem. if tolkeen hadn't sat on their asses for years, the CS would not have ever made it to the front door. they would have retreated, because starving, diseased troops with no ammo, armor with gaping holes in it, and vehicles that have no parts to perform important repairs is not in any condition to advance through constant ambushes, traps, killing fields, and attacks.

there seems to be this idiotic assumption that for the many years leading up to the invasion of tolkeen, that the people there built new weapons to deal with the invasion, created new technologies to deal with the invasion, researched new spells to deal with the invasion... and apparently nobody was thinking "hey, shouldn't we actually have a plan where we go deal with our problem instead of sitting here and waiting for a few million soldiers to eventually chew their way through all of our defenses and kill us all?" nobody, not even the people who had essentially turned to allying with horrible monsters that like to murder and torture people for fun wanted to hurt the CS until after the invasion was already over and then suddenly large numbers of revenge squads form?

there really aren't any insurmountable 'ifs'. many of them are almost trivial to deal with (seriously, getting past enemy lines? tolkeen literally invented spells just for this occasion, and explicitly used teleportation all over the place. getting behind enemy lines for people who can render themselves completely undetectable and can instantly travel from point A to point B without traveling in between is your idea of a difficult problem to deal with???)

there are not just plenty of people that hate the CS. there are plenty of very smart people who use magic as a way of life, who have decided not to use magic to solve their problems all of a sudden for no apparent reason. there are people who spend their entire lifetimes studying who have decided not to study the problem that there's a huge army of people coming to kill them which they can't reasonably expect to take on in a straight-up fight. there are people who make new magical devices that combined various effects to solve problems as a way of life, who aren't spending any time thinking about how to solve this problem.

the entire nation of tolkeen were apparently a bunch of idiots, who didn't bother to spend any time thinking about how to keep themselves alive using the tools they supposedly value above all others. THAT is the problem. if you took half a dozen moderately inventive people, gave them a list of the sorts of things tolkeen could do, and then said "how would you use this to defend tolkeen", and give them several YEARS to prepare for the invasion, you can bet your ass they'd come up with hundreds of ways to strike at the CS that should have been used. instead, we have over the course of years of invasion by the CS, not one person ever bothered to say "hey, are there any really simple ways we could strike back at the CS?"

THAT is a problem. THAT is why the siege on tolkeen books aren't worth the paper they're printed on. and THAT is why i think the war should have gone extremely differently.

[Killer Cyborg]

... the Xiticix (gods I hate that name)...

I don't hate it. It's kinda catchy.
But I agree that it's fairly stupid.
That's not how humans name things. We name things by description.
We'd call them something like "Bug Men," or the latin equivalent if we were felling special.

It's not an English word.
It's not a word in any human language.
It's not a word in the language of the Xiticix either; they never communicate with anybody, so we'd have no way of knowing what they call themselves.
It might be an onamonapia of some noise they make, but even then the spelling is pretty funky; we'd spell it phonetically- "zitickick" or whatever.
Of course, Rifts is not the only game with this problem. D&D was rampant with the same sort of thing.

[Pepsi Jedi]

the bombs? i don't have those books atm (a friend had them, then moved).

Gotta hate it when a friend robs you and your sources. *Chuckels* In all seriousness. That sucks.

Still doesn't prove it though

i may be wrong on them having massive numbers (although i do recall them having large amounts of salvaged stuff in general, since tolkeen forces don't generally make use of the supplies). however, since they have access to the whole megaverse, it should be trivial to sell their scavenged gear and buy bombs. lots of them.

So it's now your position that the tolkeen forces, are going to engage the CS. Kill them, scavenge left over gear, collect it, bring it to a central source, and trust it to a few of the shifters able to jump between worlds page 24 of aftermath states they have less than 25 of um. Now.. granted during the war They'd have more, but still. You're saying they're going to take a bunch of scavenged gear off the CS dead to some dimensional flea market and trade it for 'bombs, lots of them'?

*tilts head* Mmmmmmmmm I'm not seein' it. lol. "Impossible' No. But this isn't Wow where you take your loot to town get handed gold and go to the auction house to gear up. And who's going to sell a hostile magical force that amount of explosives, for... bloody (or washed) Cs equipment?

a simple hand grenade is quite cheap, and individually will do little to nothing. buy a few million of them, on the other hand, and it will do quite a bit.

Only if you can pull the pin and throw a few million of them at the same exact place at the same exact time and even then. No not really. The explosives are gong to plateu. if you set off one hand grenade, it goes boom. you set off 10 and it's a bigger boom but not 10 TIMES bigger, and if you set off 100 it's not 100 times bigger. They only have so much explosive force to give. old Chuck Noris delta force movies aside. Duct taping a bunch of hand grenades together doesn't blow up a building or anything.

or, you can buy fusion blocks, or any number of other things. whatever you like, really (heck, if you want to be really mean, make a magical bomb that bonds molecularly with the wall and then uses some dimensional magic and see what happens when their defenses against teleportation tries to rip a chunk out of their walls).

So again we're back to just making up stuff to fit your senero out of the blue? Ok, the CS at the same time puts a charge on the walls much like a vibro blade that stops anything from touching it. *Shrugs* See? Both sides can just make up stuff out of the blue if you wanna try that.

(As a note you can't teleport the things close to the wall to touch them. And if you walk them over the rings. YOUR close enough to the wall to get shot in the face))

and, even ignoring the scavenging, they're a major center of techno-wizardry... make a machine that produces fire globes, and let the sky rain fire. this machine can be powered by a ley line, and need not require any magical effort on the part of the operator at all. no exhaustion, no requirement of skilled labor, just some guy packing the globes into a box (or whatever container you like) and sending it off to be dropped on chi-town or any of dozens of possible important military targets (the vast majority of which actually have precisely zero AMIR defences, and won't require nearly the same level of preparation).

Again, your hand of god, waving at it and invennting something to just end the war in a sentance. It doesn't work that way.

As for the other military targets? The CS bases and super citys have the AMI's. just to varying level. You gotta think 2 rings is enough to stop most anything from teleporting in. The chancesof rolling 2 natural 20s in a row is amazingly high. most have more though. Units in the field are different but that's an entire different discussion

that said, what kind of idiot does a test run with a live bomb? apparently the same kind of moron who thinks they're going to send magicians in to test where the limit of the AMIR is. why does it not matter how far the AMIR launches you? because that does absolutely nothing whatsoever in terms of figuring out when it kicks in. if you bother using very simple reasoning, this is patently obvious.

How are you going to know it's there if you don't test it? lol and what are you going to send if you don't test it yourself? Again. You're using Out of Character knowledge to plan your experiments. You know the answer as the game's player, so you're trying to build a char with knowledge to discover it with out having to do it.

Basicly you're playing 'god' whispering into the mages ear. The mages don't know about the AMI till they try and teleport in and fly backwards.

If they're teleporting things.. the things, by their nature... can't tell the mages why it didn't work. They're things. Not people.

it shouldn't take a damn rocket scientist to figure out that you send a rock (or a simple radio broadcast device) in. when the rock doesn't get launched, you know you put it someplace beyond the reach of the device. it's that bloody simple. i don't give a damn if the stupid thing launches the teleported object a billion miles into space at 99% of the speed of light, it still doesn't prevent a very simple, straightforward experiment from figuring out where the boundary is.

You don't know to test, untill you try it. It's not a glowing bubble. It's invisable. Again you're under the impression you know it's there. You don't. And if you try, you're flng back.

As to the rock. How do you KNOW the rock doesn't arrive unless you go with it? You can't astrally see it, as astral travel has the same result. You try to teleport the rock and for all you know it made it inside and is laying on the ground. Rocks can't give reports. The teleport spell doesn't give you perception of the landing sight if you fail.

reaction --> within range. no reaction --> not in range, feel free to use this as a starting point for your missile (or a bomb, if you just place it up in the air... unless of course you're arguing that there's an infinitely long cylinder of space immune to being teleported being rotated throughout the entire galaxy once per day, there must be a top somewhere). there is no guy flying hundreds of feet through the air to be killed. there is a rock. a completely ordinary (apart from being teleported), inert, mineral object which is essentially valueless, and which the CS can feel free to blast with as many missiles, grenades, laser blasts, and other weapons as they like.

Two options here.
1) You're not in sight, of said rock or said wall so you don't know if it made it or not. You just cast your spell. or
2) You're with in sight of said rock and said AMI ring to 'watch' and therefore are with in range of the guns, trying to magically teleport though the AMI ring. Where in you're toast.

See the problem now? Your rocks in your test can't tell you anything. Only you being there can. and if you're there.. you can walk the rock over the AMI ring. lol so you wouldn't be testing it that way, as you'd have no reason to, because.. YOU DON"T KNOW ABOUT IT ALREADY.

also, did you even read what i said? use a damn TW device. no teaching required, no spell knowledge required. where the hell did you even begin to think that i said anything about learning lesser teleport from a gargoylite (which, to my knowledge, does not actually know the spell).

What TW device? show me a page number.

i said you could get a gargoylite, which is an extremely expendable minion (there's plenty more where it came from), give it the TW bomber machine, and let it rain down hell. it requires no special qualifications, they're quite capable of operating TW devices, as are any number of creatures that have even the tiniest bit of spellcasting or psychic ability. i never once said the demon was going to teach anything, or that anyone was going to be taught, in that post.

Here. This is a machine (( that noone has)) Take it and go get killed. "Durrr ok. sure"

Mmmm Nope. The gargoylite is gonna go "It's your machine. YOU go get killed." if it doesn't kill you itself for the effort. lol The world you play in must be amazing where noone has any self preservation instinct what so ever and marches off cliffs like mindless lemmings.

also, there's this idiotic assumption that because they don't know *why* they're getting launched back (which killer cyborg has demonstrated clearly they could find out trivially, once they know that stuff is getting launched back),

No he hasn't. If you try and teleport in and you're launched back a half mile and dazed. How are you going to figure out how it's done?

that they somehow are completely incapable of responding to the fact that they *are* getting launched back. cave men may not be able to explain much about gravity and how all objects exert some amount of pull on each other because of it's force, but i bet they can figure out that if they step off a cliff they plummet to their death. the fact that they can't explain the science behind why they can fall does not somehow prevent them from figuring out that if they don't step off a cliff, they won't fall to the bottom of it. they don't need to understand what the force is, they just need to know where it is. don't teleport within a certain area, and you won't get launched. problem solved.

Exactly. They don't know why they can't teleport into tthe CS cities. Just that they can't. So they don't.

Just like your cave man might not know WHY he falls when he steps off a cliff. Just that if he steps off the cliff. he falls and dies. So he doesn't.

mystic invisibility prevents all forms of magical and psychic detection from seeing you. there is nothing "letter of the rule but not the spirit of it" about assuming that it prevents a psionic power (clairvoyance) from detecting you. that's what the spell does. it doesn't say it might protect from some forms, it says it *does* protect from all forms.

furthermore, this is again ignoring the fact that there are plenty of places which tolkeen can attack which are not chi-town.

And my socks are green. Oh? what? we wern't talking about my socks? Ohhh right. Like we weren't talking about other places than the mega cities or bases.

places which don't even have non-canon rifter articles telling us they have AMIR devices (in fact, as i understand it, it's explicitly *only* chi-town which has them),

You understand wrong. Both rifters that have the AMI state that all the CS cities have them, with bigger cities having more of them, smaller cities having less. And CS bases have them too. Both articles are talking about places that are NOT chi town where the AMI's come into use. and in both places they clearly state the CS cities and bases have them. That they have varying degrees of them, and Chi town has more than 100.

So you're just wrong.

yet would absolutely require protection. it really doesn't matter so much *where* tolkeen takes the offensive

Sure it would. There's priorities. If your Tolkeen terrorists bomb a farm somewhere out in BFE, it sucks but you're not going to get a huge response. If they attack a small base down in the boonies way away from anything. Again. Not a huge response. The responses will be in proportion to the target.

The bigger the target, the more protection it has and bigger responce you get. It 100% matters where tolkeen does their dirty work.

(although i do believe i've demonstrated at least a few simple strategies tolkeen could have developed over the many many many years when they were preparing for the CS to attack them),

No you've just made up stuff that's not in the game as an end run. "Well tolkeen makes a special TW machine to do X that they can't do in the books but can because I think it up" If you're doing that my reply is simple "Then the CS makes a special machine to counter X. Poof. Done"

Both are equally as valid.

just that they do, and that doing so would mean that the CS is either going to be sending it's troops to battle with no repairs, no weapon reloads, no food, no fuel, etc... or they will have to stay at home to defend themselves. whether the target is chi-town or the dozens of factories, mines, refineries, ammunition depots, warehouses, and other essential infrastructure the CS needs in order to wage war for more than a few weeks is not even particularly relevant.

Sure it is. because the CS, while not the brightest kids in the world, are smart enough to guard all those sorts of things. So when your tolkeen forces show up, the Cs... you know.. Shoots them in the face, alot.

You're acting like the CS just took all it's troops. Put them in a line and started walking to Tolkeen and didn't think "Oh golly gee. they might try and slip the lines and strike our logistics"

They're not THAT dumb.

while some of the rings may overlap, it's a bit questionable to assume that *all* of them overlap. most likely, only 1 or maybe 2 protect most places, with even the most secure likely getting only 3-4.

You're just assuming. The book states that some places have more than others, with Chi having more than 100. Some have 3 with smaller rings inside. But your mages have no way of knowing there's one.. much less three.. or thirty. or three hundred.

And they don't know it's a 1 in 20 chance to get through each one.

as far as elementals being stupid, no they aren't. they're differently intelligent.

I actually said that, but in this case it equates to the same thing. They're too dumb to be able to tell tolkeen troops from cs troops and too stupid to tell living people from dead ones. They're not going to find top secret things in sewer pipes and know them for what they are.

and it just so happens that if you find out where an underground object is (which most likely they eventually will), an earth elemental is not going to have a hard time figuring out the order to go destroy it.

How you going to find it with out using out of character knowledge? How in the world is your mage going to make the mental jump from "I can't teleport into the city, there must be top secret tech in the sewer pipes that stops me!" ?

You wouldn't. Because there's no reason to think that the sewers are preventing your magic to work. So you'd never send the elemental to find it, because you've no reason to LOOK.

it doesn't take a lot of brains for them to travel to it underground (and since that's where it is, they'll have every reason to go there and no reason not to), and once there they just start smashing things until it breaks.

You don't know it's there. That's cheating and using out of character information. That's like going "well I can go kill Archie because I read he exists in source book one so of course I know where to look and kill him, and not the big brain, the toaster in the secret room"

That's what you're doing Shark. You're taking out of character information and trying to think up ways for your characters to defeat it. Your char's wouldn't even know it's there, to THINK up ways to destroy it. Any more than you know Archie's there, to march in and kill him.

if you think an earth elemental is so stupid they can't figure out that sort of order, then perhaps that would explain why you seem to think that tolkeen consists of nothing but drooling idiots who can't plan ahead, work together, or come up with ideas on how to use the things they are capable of doing to protect themselves, their families, their homes, etc.

Yeah, they are that stupid. They're useful the same way attack dogs are. When their master goes 'KILL THAT" they go and kill it. Or when told "Kill anything that comes into this area that's not me" they stand there and kill anything that comes into the area that's not them. "Creative thinking" isn't in their bag.

They are so stupid (( Differently minded, but again it equates to the same thing here)) that they can't tell living people from dead bodies. They are not rooting around and uncovering top secret technology.

then there's this absurd assumption that you need to summon a true elemental being (ie the full intelligence, not the splinter that a minor or major elemental represents). and there's this assumption that you're going to send the elemental to go on a scouting mission. you don't have to. it will very shortly become apparent that something is there. eventually, using killer cyborg's simple clairvoyance technique, they will figure out that it is underground.

I don't see how. It's not a threat to you. Why would it ping? You're just looking for ways to cheat the knowledge into your char man. Your mages don't know it's there, and the elementals wouldn't care if your mages did know.

and then they send in the earth elementals to wreck it. after all, those elementals *are* being directed by intelligent human beings. the fact that you can't send them to scout or deliver messages isn't pertinent. you CAN send them to go smash things, just so long as you know what to smash.

But you don't. That's the hinge. You don't even know to look for it, so you can't tell them what to smash.

Again you're going "Ok there's robots. Therefore I'm sending an elemental in to kill archie"

You just don't KNOW it's there, so you can't possibly tell um to smash it.

and that shouldn't even be terribly difficult to figure out, if it becomes important (and again, this is dealing with a defense that only one place in the entire CS has).

Again. Incorrect. It's very clear about this. If nothing else, BOTH articles are talking about places that are not chi town, and in both cases it says ALL the mega cities have them and all the bases.

will they recognise it as a top secret prototype? probably not. will they be able to recognise the thing that is made out of almost solid metals that surrounds the city when pretty much everything else around is not? well, they very likely will.

How? It's hidden in sewer pipes and stuff. the only way to get the knowlege is from god. and he's not helpin' tolkeen just now. Unless your tolkeen mages are just irradicating everything on their approach to the city and everything between where they are and the city. (( and up to and exceeding 30 feet underground))

If they're dong that.... the CS knows they're there and comes out to shoot them.

but hey, if you still think that's a problem, you can also just hand them a bomb, and tell them to deliver it into the tunnels underneath chi-town. the way to deal with these details is available. if you aren't even going to bother thinking for a few seconds how to get around them, then you really shouldn't declare them to be impenetrable barriers.

You could send a bomb in with an elemental. If you had one. And you might blow up a room or two. But it wouldn't hurt Chi town. The same articles talk about anti techtonic stuff built in to prevent earth elementals and earthquakes from harming the mega cities. Coupled with the fact they're all built to be compartmentalized and with MD materials.

You could go down around, under and in, but then you'd blow your wad and Chi town would send toops and DB's down to see what made the bang. *shrugs* You don't have mystical nukes so it's not that big a problem all told. Can you do some damage? Sure. ALOT of damage? nope. The CS mega cities have the same ablative armor between levels and stuff.

and if you think the CS can just somehow magically continue to function without it's infrastructure to support the military, then you must be delusional.

No. They couldn't. But YOU haven't thought up anything that works, unless you'e using massive amounts of munitions that tolkeen doesn't have or TW devices, that again, they don't have. Even then, by the way the CS is set up, you're still swinging' and missing.

Can it be done? yes. The way you're presenting? No.

the CS didn't just march up to tolkeen, kick in the doors, and have a party. they gradually, after being repeatedly ambushed, slowed down, and even defeated in a major battle, somehow spontaneously with absolutely no justification show up on the doorstep of tolkeen with no troubles after YEARS of campaigning.

You need to hunt down your thief friend and re-read the books. That's not how it happened.

no, once they're at the doorstep, you can't start doing this. but if you do it during the months and years leading up to this point,

Not trying to be mean but "Shoulda woulda coulda" Could some of these things have worked? I don't think so, but we don't know, because tolkeen didn't try. Should they have? Debateable. They were trying other things. The point is, they didn't try, so.... *shrugs* Oh well?

You're monday morning quarterbacking the war. Can we all agree ----we----- would have done different things if we were the general in charge? Clearly. But we weren't. The generals in charge did their own thing, (( For good or ill)) Both sides made mistakes. Why?

TO SELL BOOKS!!

TO ENTERTAIN!!

If the war was going to be realistic, then it'd have been over in about 20 minutes. Flight time for the nukes to reach the area. BOOM dead tolkeen. Instead, suddenly tolkeen had 'Anti-nuke rifts defenses'. And if the bombs trying to HIT the city get sucked into rifts and blown up.. the second wavve could be air detinations, just out side the rift vaccume's range and still get the city, or at least blow closer and march um in, taking out the rift vaccume's generators.

But that didn't happen. Why? Because the war would have been a page long. Palladium's a company to make money, they make money by selling books, the books were a sweeping series. Can't have a series if one side wins in a page.. so it went back and forth. THAT"S why they all did dumb things. ((That.. and people do dumb things. Look at the time Egypt and Syria tried to invade Israel. The Yom Kippur War (1973) By all logic and numbers they should have won. They went rolling in on Israel's most holy day when most of the troops were in church, and the defenses were manned by 17 year olds in the desert. Instead Isreal repelled the attacking forces and a week later launched a counter offensive that pushed into Egypt and syria and were about to head into the capital cities (only 25 miles from Damascus, and 63 miles from Cairo) when the US had some peace talks and backed them off. ))

Generals in war do what they think is right. Sometimes they are right. Sometimes not.

when it was a war of attrition and you can keep the other side from getting replacements for their equipment, food to eat, medical supplies, etc, then the CS is going to have a problem. if tolkeen hadn't sat on their asses for years, the CS would not have ever made it to the front door. they would have retreated, because starving, diseased troops with no ammo, armor with gaping holes in it, and vehicles that have no parts to perform important repairs is not in any condition to advance through constant ambushes, traps, killing fields, and attacks.

Tolkeen DID attack the CS supply lines. ANd it did work in part, due to the guerrilla tactics. They just weren't good enough to beat the CS. whom.... didn't just sit idly by and LET THEM. The CS knew. "hey those mages are going to attack our supply lines, so, lets guard the supply lines and shoot um if they try" Did it work 100%? no. Tolkeen did cause some ruckus this way.

Just not enough.

there seems to be this idiotic assumption that for the many years leading up to the invasion of tolkeen, that the people there built new weapons to deal with the invasion, created new technologies to deal with the invasion, researched new spells to deal with the invasion... and apparently nobody was thinking "hey, shouldn't we actually have a plan where we go deal with our problem instead of sitting here and waiting for a few million soldiers to eventually chew their way through all of our defenses and kill us all?"

As they lost and had their asses handed to them in the end, by the superior force, maybe it wasn't so Idiotic at all not to go and pick a fight with them? Unlike karate kid.. if you go and fight the big bully that is better trained than you and has been doing his bully thing for years, with your guy who, week before last, was studying karate out of a book, you're going to get your butt kicked. Did tolkeen yoke up on it's -----Defenses------ yes. Does that include some offense? Yes. Did it imply they could march in and beat a much superior force? No. Clearly not. Tolkeen geared up for defense, all the while hoping they didn't need it. As bad as Tolkeen was in the end. They weren't evil conquerors to start. They wern't the Magic zone. They wern't motivated to pick a fight they might very well lose (( and did lose when the fight came to them)). Tolkeen, prior to the war, wasn't a super expansive empire. They pretty much just wanted to be left alone. They just had the bad luck of close geography to the CS, who WERE Expansive empire builders. They were in the way. Lazlo and other groups TOLD tolkeen. "DUDE, just MOVE!!! The CS is coming. Look. They're coming. They're getting closer. They're getting mad. Just MOVE!! You don't have to fight. You don't WANT to fight. Just MOVE! Leave. Get out of the way of the CS fist. There's ALOT of wilderness out there. Move. Leave. Get out of the way." tolkeen was (( perhaps in the right)) going 'This is OUR place. Right here. They can get over it or frak off" The Cs came a nocking, and instead of running, tolkeen stood up and was all "Come at me bro!!" and the CS.... went at um, and kicked their butts, routed them and chased them out.

nobody, not even the people who had essentially turned to allying with horrible monsters that like to murder and torture people for fun wanted to hurt the CS until after the invasion was already over and then suddenly large numbers of revenge squads form?

Want to? Probably. Stupid enough to kick the dragon in the tail and start a war they might (( and did lose?) No. They wanted to live and be left alone. Tolkeen didn't attack the CS because that wasn't the point. Tolkeen might not have LIKED the CS but they left the CS alone till the CS came over the hill.

Again you're thinking of the Magic kingdom for that sort of mentality. And even they have sat down in their vally after the severe ass kicking they got in their war. They learned that lesson. "Hate the CS, talk smack, but do so from way the hell over here, where they can't shoot you"

Poor tolkeen was just too close.

there really aren't any insurmountable 'ifs'. many of them are almost trivial to deal with (seriously, getting past enemy lines? tolkeen literally invented spells just for this occasion, and explicitly used teleportation all over the place. getting behind enemy lines for people who can render themselves completely undetectable and can instantly travel from point A to point B without traveling in between is your idea of a difficult problem to deal with???)

I dont' have a problem with some people doing it. It's just by and far not a universal triat. Some troops behind enemy lines? Sure. enough to do much? Not so much. It's like, the bite of a flea on a human. Does it hurt? sure. but then you kill the flee and go about your day. If you have 10.. 20 fleas on you, you just brush um off, and kill um. could they have gotten some of your blood? Sure. And it hurts, but it's not going to kill you.

The forces that Tolkeen had that COULD do this, ammounted to those fleas. Not a rabid pit bull going for the throat.

there are not just plenty of people that hate the CS. there are plenty of very smart people who use magic as a way of life, who have decided not to use magic to solve their problems all of a sudden for no apparent reason. there are people who spend their entire lifetimes studying who have decided not to study the problem that there's a huge army of people coming to kill them which they can't reasonably expect to take on in a straight-up fight. there are people who make new magical devices that combined various effects to solve problems as a way of life, who aren't spending any time thinking about how to solve this problem.

Maybe they did, and noone listened. Or maybe those thinkers, wern't all military. Maybe they were busy doing other things. Like living?

Tolkeen wasn't caught with their pants down. They had LOTS of impressive defenses. Maybe instead of building the things YOU want, they were busy building the "Anti nuke missle thing"

They don't have unlimited time or unlimited minds. Someone had to dream that up. Maybe your thinkers were just working on other projects?

In the end we don't know WHY they didn't. Only that they didn't.

the entire nation of tolkeen were apparently a bunch of idiots, who didn't bother to spend any time thinking about how to keep themselves alive using the tools they supposedly value above all others. THAT is the problem.

But they DID. They just didn't do what Sharkforce wanted them to. Appernetly the nation of tolkeen went "Holy crap. the CS has missles and can launch nukes. QUICK. we need something that can handle the biggest threat they have against us. lets develop a Star Wars nuke umbrella that actually works!!!" and.. .damn if they didn't!! That massive massive massssssssive thing, kept the war from being over in 10 minutes. I don't think you give them enough credit. Had they not spent time to develope that, this would all be mute because they'd be dead in the first strike.

You can monday morning quarterback ANYTHING man, seeing it from the end. "oh well you should have done X because they did Y." I'm sure if the CS were monday morning quarterbacking like you are, they wouldn't have wasted all those nukes to have them sucked up and deposited in some other dimension (( poor innocent glowing nuclear wasteland dimension!)). But they didn't know that'd happen. Probably pissed um right off when it did.

You're planning a war in hindsight.

if you took half a dozen moderately inventive people, gave them a list of the sorts of things tolkeen could do, and then said "how would you use this to defend tolkeen", and give them several YEARS to prepare for the invasion, you can bet your ass they'd come up with hundreds of ways to strike at the CS that should have been used. instead, we have over the course of years of invasion by the CS, not one person ever bothered to say "hey, are there any really simple ways we could strike back at the CS?"

I'm sure they did, but thinking something up and being able to do it are two different things, and as pointed out. They wern't just sitting around on their butts, they were building other defenses and such. You can plan your war in hindsight, and look real smart. It's planning it before ith appens that's the hard part.

On monday, if I know the football team would run the ball to the right for 5 plays in a row, it's REAL easy to go "Man we should stack defenders on the right, because that's where it's going to be" but on sunday, before it happens, it's a different story.

THAT is a problem. THAT is why the siege on tolkeen books aren't worth the paper they're printed on. and THAT is why i think the war should have gone extremely differently.

Well you're a big fan of Out of Character knowledge.

Are there flaws in the books? yes.

Are they the ones you're putting forth here? No. At least not the way you're currently presenting them.

[Shark_Force]

so wait... you're saying you think that when they have fewer than 50 shifters capable of summoning a true elemental (ie the full intelligence), that means they only have 50 shifters period? read more. get knowledge, *then* start the discussion.

but this still doesn't negate the fact that with a one-time investment of a rather small amount of cash and gems, they can easily mass produce fire globes with a TW machine.

you don't need a 100 grenades all at once. you just sit there dropping them one after another (or one fusion block after another, etc). each one wears away a little bit. eventually, you get the whole way through.

and yes, i'm making stuff (using the TW rules). what the hell do you think a nation known for being one of the centers for techno-wizardry is going to do, exactly, pick their noses for the entire war?

also, you're still not reading. let's try this again, more slowly:

do you accept that the AMIR is not infinitely tall? you teleport things ABOVE the protected area (again, testing with dummies because they're not idiots, to find the right spot), and then this fancy little thing called gravity makes the attack land on the city. problem solved.

tolkeen inventing techno-wizardry devices when that's exactly what they do isn't some sort of ridiculous idea. it's very basic common sense. it's no more radical than supposing that the CS has factories which produce weapons and armor.

but i have to say, there's a rather large dichotomy here. somehow, the CS has been digging up massive holes all over the place to install these AMIRs everywhere (which is questionable at best, as the original article used the defense that they had spent an obscene amount of resources on making just enough to protect chi-town as i recall - letting them mass produce them when nobody else in the megaverse has them is even more dumb than letting them have a prototype), but somehow also nobody knows they exist. allow me to be blunt: if i spend a few months ripping apart the sewers all across the city, people WILL notice. and furthermore, it's not enough. they reach so far, and that's all. teleport something above (because again, the notion that these AMIRs reach an infinite distance up is just stupid), and let it fall on top. problem solved.

the mages will know there is something wrong when their first teleport attempt doesn't work. from there, they start testing. losing one mage, maybe (assuming they don't start by trying to teleport bombs in and find out that the bomb blows up several hundred feet away instead of starting off with the suicide mission). then they test. then they find out. seriously, do i need to spell everything out for you? use your brain, think about what you would do if this sort of thing came up. i don't need to tell the mages to do tests until they figure out where the limit is. they're not morons, they actually do have a brain, and they will use them. if necessary, you even build a radio device that broadcasts it's location (or, you can have an invisible observer on sight - again, it is not that hard for a mage to become essentially completely undetectable, thus negating any real threat of being in a position to observe).

if i need to spell everything out for someone who doesn't bother taking the time to make sure they've understood the question, understood the basic source material, and actually considers the NPCs in it to be anything other than drooling mindless idiots, it's not worth the time to discuss it. the city is chock full of inventors. to suppose that every single thing they've made is listed in a book is idiocy. they can make stuff that doesn't exist in the books, it's even got rules for how to do so.

if you can't figure out how they're going to learn about the AMIR using methods that killer cyborg demonstrated, then maybe you should actually go and read his posts as well. i'm certainly not going to bother reading the thread on your behalf, get off your butt and do it yourself. then, once you are informed, you can come back and i'll discuss this with you.

but whatever. i'm done discussing with you on the matter. you've chosen not to research, pay attention to what has been said, or bother treating the tolkeen forces as anything other than mindless robots. it's not even worth going through and trying to explain where the problems are in your approach, because apparently somewhere along the way the tolkeen forces will have to figure out how to walk out of their front door, and in your world they're too dumb to manage to do that.

[Pepsi Jedi]

so wait... you're saying you think that when they have fewer than 50 shifters capable of summoning a true elemental (ie the full intelligence), that means they only have 50 shifters period? read more. get knowledge, *then* start the discussion.

You're trying to nitpick. Open the book, it doesn't say they're summoning gods. It's talking about using elementals in general. meaning general elementals. And it says they have fewer than 50. This 100% discounts your 'Oh they have thousands thatcould and can do so just indefinatly!!"

Again, it's not like pulling a trigger. It takes effort and they have a very small number of people that can. Hell the Vanguard is bigger than 50 people.

but this still doesn't negate the fact that with a one-time investment of a rather small amount of cash and gems, they can easily mass produce fire globes with a TW machine.

Book and page of your theoretical machine?

you don't need a 100 grenades all at once. you just sit there dropping them one after another (or one fusion block after another, etc). each one wears away a little bit. eventually, you get the whole way through.

In about 5 years, you might be able to get through the wall like this. And after the firstone, they blast you. Your route 'In theory, ignoring the rest of the world' might work. If you keep throwing MDC grenades at a base wall, eventually after days and days and days of it, you might blow through. But after the first or second one, the CS DOES act.. and comes out to eat your face man.

and yes, i'm making stuff (using the TW rules). what the hell do you think a nation known for being one of the centers for techno-wizardry is going to do, exactly, pick their noses for the entire war?

If you're just makin' up stuff to get your ideas to work. I'll just make up stuff for the CS counter. Stalemate right?

also, you're still not reading. let's try this again, more slowly:

do you accept that the AMIR is not infinitely tall? you teleport things ABOVE the protected area (again, testing with dummies because they're not idiots, to find the right spot), and then this fancy little thing called gravity makes the attack land on the city. problem solved.

So you drop something onto the roof. Ok. *shrugs* Roof's fortified. An d being tolkeen, they do not have unlimited amounts of munitions. When called on that, you seem to not answer that part.

tolkeen inventing techno-wizardry devices when that's exactly what they do isn't some sort of ridiculous idea. it's very basic common sense. it's no more radical than supposing that the CS has factories which produce weapons and armor.

There's a difference. Your stuff isn't in the books. There's what.. 50 Rifts books? There's plenty of guns and swords and stuff, but nothing doing what you're invisioning. "Outside the realm of possibility?" Maybe, maybe not. But we've no evidence of it's existance. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It might be possible, but Tolkeen hasn't figured out how to yet.

but i have to say, there's a rather large dichotomy here. somehow, the CS has been digging up massive holes all over the place to install these AMIRs everywhere (which is questionable at best, as the original article used the defense that they had spent an obscene amount of resources on making just enough to protect chi-town as i recall

And I've told you. ----REPEATEDLY---- You're -wrong-. I explained it. REPEATEDLY, that it's not just chi town. So now you're just using blinders to stick to the misinformation.
Get the rifters. Read the articles. The rings are hidden 30 feet underground around the bases and cities. They're hitten in sewer systems and other things already there.

You're saying that if the CS has this defense, you find it implausible that they'd install it? Well that'd be all kinds of stupid.

- letting them mass produce them when nobody else in the megaverse has them is even more dumb than letting them have a prototype),

They don't have to be mass produced. There's not THAT many supercities and bases. And it's never said nobody else in the megaverse has them. Infact it's implied someone else does. The CS didn't develop them in a vacuum. "Someone" helped them. It's left purposefully vague as to whom. For all we know this could be common security for some places. How many detailed write ups on bases in other parts of the megaverse do we have?

but somehow also nobody knows they exist. allow me to be blunt: if i spend a few months ripping apart the sewers all across the city, people WILL notice. and furthermore, it's not enough.

Yeah if you were stupid enough to tell them. yeah... but it's the CS.... Most of the population can't read man. At least not advanced. You're acting like they're driving up to a hole and going "HEY EVERYONE!! BACK AWAY!!! WE"RE INSTALLING SOME TOP SECRET CRAP HERE!! BACK AWAY! BACK AWAY. DON"T LOOK HERE!! LOOK AWAY!!!"

Well DEEEEEEEEEEEEEERP. They very likely didn't do it like that. They would go in as CS workers.. and once underground, who do you think are watching them? How often do you stop to watch someone laying pipe? Or crawl into the sewers to make sure sewer workers are actually working and not just sititng down there in the dark reading comics?

They go up as workers and say they're fixing something or enlarging an existing pipe/tunnel or something to help to deal with the rise in population.

No one's sitting around sneaking to spy on sewer workers Shark. And it didn't just happen all the sudden. Again, Read the article. It took 60 years to get it installed and working.

they reach so far, and that's all. teleport something above (because again, the notion that these AMIRs reach an infinite distance up is just stupid), and let it fall on top. problem solved.

Right, because in their apparent stupidity, the CS never thought someone might drop a bomb on the city. All those weapon emplacements? None of them have sensors to track something falling towards the city. Naa that'd be stupid. We have tech now, on ships that can use automatic tracking gun to shoot down incoming missiles. Many times faster than a gravity falling chunk. Nor would the CS, in their apparent stupidity, think. "Hey, the top of the city is easy to hit from the air. Maybe we should put some ablative armor there too?

OHHHHHHHH That's right. the CS aren't that dumb. They DO have weapon emplacements, many do have computer ai's and tracking ability and the roof is Armored with enough mdc ablative armor to suck up missile strikes. Much less your stolen grenades or fusion blocks. Because.... while they do make mistakes..... building a mega city that would just go pop, if some mage dropped a fusion block atop it... would be cosmically stupid.

the mages will know there is something wrong when their first teleport attempt doesn't work.

If the person is teleporting yes. If it's an object. how would they know?

from there, they start testing. losing one mage, maybe (assuming they don't start by trying to teleport bombs in and find out that the bomb blows up several hundred feet away instead of starting off with the suicide mission). then they test. then they find out. seriously, do i need to spell everything out for you? use your brain, think about what you would do if this sort of thing came up. i don't need to tell the mages to do tests until they figure out where the limit is. they're not morons, they actually do have a brain, and they will use them. if necessary, you even build a radio device that broadcasts it's location (or, you can have an invisible observer on sight - again, it is not that hard for a mage to become essentially completely undetectable, thus negating any real threat of being in a position to observe).

You still have over a half mile swath of location where your teleporting stops. What cha gonna do with it?

Go "ok we can teleport to with in a half mile or so of this point"?

ok? So what? you can walk closer.

if i need to spell everything out for someone who doesn't bother taking the time to make sure they've understood the question, understood the basic source material, and actually considers the NPCs in it to be anything other than drooling mindless idiots, it's not worth the time to discuss it. the city is chock full of inventors. to suppose that every single thing they've made is listed in a book is idiocy. they can make stuff that doesn't exist in the books, it's even got rules for how to do so.

Other than your attempted insults, it boils down to "It's not in a book. I'm just making something up to win the arguement"

Which in return I go "Well if you can do it, so can I to beat your made up crap. So you don't actually win"

By your exact logic, the CS is full of inventors. To suppose that every single thing they've made is listed in a book is idiocy. They can make stuff that doesn't exist in books, it's even got rules for how to do so"

So you just make up "X" and my CS boys will make up "Y" to counter it. Ad infin. It's not even hard.

THAT is why your 'well they could just invent ____" doesn't work. because when you do that. I counter it the exact same way.

if you can't figure out how they're going to learn about the AMIR using methods that killer cyborg demonstrated, then maybe you should actually go and read his posts as well. i'm certainly not going to bother reading the thread on your behalf, get off your butt and do it yourself.

I've told you why it wouldn't work. Your answer seems to be 'It's there so they'd know'. They'd know they can't teleport in. yes. Why? No. You haven't even read the rifter articles on the AMI. That's made clear by your repeated attempts to say they're only around Chi town. (( which I've repeatedly told you are false, but you aren't listening))

then, once you are informed, you can come back and i'll discuss this with you.

but whatever. i'm done discussing with you on the matter. you've chosen not to research, pay attention to what has been said,

Sure i have. You just dont' like that your routes don't work. ___AT ALL___ with out you just inventing something not in the book to try and get your way. I've got the books to back me up. Your arguement seems to be "Well i can dream it up so it'll work". Sorry but no.

Not any more than the mages would some how know where the AMI is. For all they know it's in the center of the city putting out a bubble that reaches that far. Or at the apex of the city's some what pyramidal shape. Being mages that'd be logical to them, as they use magical pyramids. It could be something built into the walls. Or something beamed down from space. There's literally a thousand different things it could be, but to you, YOU, know out of character, so your mages know in character.

That's cheating. Thusly your routes to try and bypass it don't work. (( Doesn't help that you've not read the articles pertaining to the object in question. Maybe... go research... or pay attention.... and you might do better.

or bother treating the tolkeen forces as anything other than mindless robots.

No. I don't think they're mindless robots. I think they're smart enough not to repeatedly run into a brick wall face first. You seem to think they would. Would they be able to figure out "Dang, we cant teleport into a CS supercity"? Yeah. REAL easy. Would they be able to figure out why? No. Not in the ways YOU are putting forth.

How many times would you run into a brick wall at a full sprint and be thrown back 2 football fields to a half mile? How many times would it take before you went 'OW THAT HURTS REALLLLLLLY BAD!!!" ??

Hopefully not more than one or two....

Are the mages smart enough to figure that out? Yes.

Could they know, instinctfully that there's technology under the ground some where in the half mile blow back zone, and know where to find it and affect it? no. it's not like it's labled "MAGE ANTI TELEPORTATION DEVICE" In the friggin' tube. When they install it I'm sure they're smart enough to call it "Human waste pipe number 29458234802, infectious waste with in" or something.

Again, the effect could be from 100s of different things. Could be a field projected from the center of the city, or from the top of the city in an umbrellia, it could be beamed down from space. (( Tolkeen doesn't have any launch pads. they don't know you can't get into space)) Could be radiated out from the city's walls itself. At any of the dozens of levels. Could be anything! They don't know. But your position is "Oh I cant teleport in. I should send Earth elementals to destroy the top secret tech buried under the ground." That you have no reason to even LOOK FOR THERE.

That's cheating and using out of character information.

it's not even worth going through and trying to explain where the problems are in your approach, because apparently somewhere along the way the tolkeen forces will have to figure out how to walk out of their front door, and in your world they're too dumb to manage to do that.

You're not going to explain, because you can't.

Are there ways to get through? Sure.

Just not the ways you have put forth.

[Faceless Dude]

No. I don't think they're mindless robots. I think they're smart enough not to repeatedly run into a brick wall face first. You seem to think they would. Would they be able to figure out "Dang, we cant teleport into a CS supercity"? Yeah. REAL easy. Would they be able to figure out why? No. Not in the ways YOU are putting forth.

I just wanted to add that while no one thinks that the Citizens/Armies/High Command of Tolkeen are mindless robots, I'm betting there's a huge blind-spot about how to properly use and counter technology. It comes from using magic to solve all your problems. A technological people is going to perfect serveral sciences and engineering techniques just to centrally heat and cool their buildings. A mage is more likely to wave his hand and make it warmer or cooler on demand. Or create a magical device to make it warmer or cooler on demand for him.

Even the high command, when they thought they needed a technological edge, didn't develop any tech o ntheir own, they outsourced to the Naruni (I think).

So I can beleive that they have a blind spot when trying to deal with tech. Yes, most of the time, you can just "magic up" a solution. But the few times when they can't (like trying to find a magic solution to an anti-magic piece of tech) they will be at a serious disadvantage.

[Shark_Force]

No. I don't think they're mindless robots. I think they're smart enough not to repeatedly run into a brick wall face first. You seem to think they would. Would they be able to figure out "Dang, we cant teleport into a CS supercity"? Yeah. REAL easy. Would they be able to figure out why? No. Not in the ways YOU are putting forth.

I just wanted to add that while no one thinks that the Citizens/Armies/High Command of Tolkeen are mindless robots, I'm betting there's a huge blind-spot about how to properly use and counter technology. It comes from using magic to solve all your problems. A technological people is going to perfect serveral sciences and engineering techniques just to centrally heat and cool their buildings. A mage is more likely to wave his hand and make it warmer or cooler on demand. Or create a magical device to make it warmer or cooler on demand for him.

Even the high command, when they thought they needed a technological edge, didn't develop any tech o ntheir own, they outsourced to the Naruni (I think).

So I can beleive that they have a blind spot when trying to deal with tech. Yes, most of the time, you can just "magic up" a solution. But the few times when they can't (like trying to find a magic solution to an anti-magic piece of tech) they will be at a serious disadvantage.

eh, that's quite unlikely. tolkeen is a major center of techno-wizardry (albeit not as much of a producer as stormspire is, they still are a major center for it), and techno-wizards actually have quite a few regular technological skills. a techno-wizard knows how to fix the engine in a regular vehicle, they'd just *prefer* to spend their time replacing it with a TW version.

[Pepsi Jedi]

No. I don't think they're mindless robots. I think they're smart enough not to repeatedly run into a brick wall face first. You seem to think they would. Would they be able to figure out "Dang, we cant teleport into a CS supercity"? Yeah. REAL easy. Would they be able to figure out why? No. Not in the ways YOU are putting forth.

I just wanted to add that while no one thinks that the Citizens/Armies/High Command of Tolkeen are mindless robots, I'm betting there's a huge blind-spot about how to properly use and counter technology. It comes from using magic to solve all your problems. A technological people is going to perfect serveral sciences and engineering techniques just to centrally heat and cool their buildings. A mage is more likely to wave his hand and make it warmer or cooler on demand. Or create a magical device to make it warmer or cooler on demand for him.

Even the high command, when they thought they needed a technological edge, didn't develop any tech o ntheir own, they outsourced to the Naruni (I think).

So I can beleive that they have a blind spot when trying to deal with tech. Yes, most of the time, you can just "magic up" a solution. But the few times when they can't (like trying to find a magic solution to an anti-magic piece of tech) they will be at a serious disadvantage.

eh, that's quite unlikely. tolkeen is a major center of techno-wizardry (albeit not as much of a producer as stormspire is, they still are a major center for it), and techno-wizards actually have quite a few regular technological skills. a techno-wizard knows how to fix the engine in a regular vehicle, they'd just *prefer* to spend their time replacing it with a TW version.

Just like there's a difference between changing the oil in a ford F150... or even rebuilding an engine in a honda..... and designing and building the booster rockets for the space shuttle.... there's a bit of difference between proficiency in basic mechanics, and knowledge in high tech Rifts level technology.

[Faceless Dude]

eh, that's quite unlikely. tolkeen is a major center of techno-wizardry (albeit not as much of a producer as stormspire is, they still are a major center for it), and techno-wizards actually have quite a few regular technological skills. a techno-wizard knows how to fix the engine in a regular vehicle, they'd just *prefer* to spend their time replacing it with a TW version.

No necessarily, I'd think that a techno-wizard would be at a disadvantage to doing anything purely tech because the yare experts of taking a half-built piece of something and using magic to do what they want. Hence, the gems and ppe needed to make it go. But that was besides my point.

They are techno-WIZARDS. Not operators with magic, they make technology work through magic. They are still of the mindset to try and find a magical solution to a technological problem, and gets levels more difficult and complex when the technological problem is tech that screws up magic.

[Shark_Force]

so in other words, neither of you bothered to actually look up the class.

because if you had, you would know that they start off with mechanical engineer, basic electronics computer repair, operation, and programming, and have full access to all mechanical, electrical, and technical skills (with bonuses to them) including stuff like armorer, robotics, and similar high-tech skills.

seriously. go do your research before you start acting like you know what you're talking about. techno-wizards might *prefer* to upgrade stuff with magic. they are, however, quite knowledgeable about how those same devices work when not upgraded with magic, and can use, modify, repair, upgrade, and in general have a very good level of skill with many high-tech gear by default, and are extremely likely to have good skills in more high-tech skills as well.

[Pepsi Jedi]

so in other words, neither of you bothered to actually look up the class.

because if you had, you would know that they start off with mechanical engineer, basic electronics computer repair, operation, and programming, and have full access to all mechanical, electrical, and technical skills (with bonuses to them) including stuff like armorer, robotics, and similar high-tech skills.

seriously. go do your research before you start acting like you know what you're talking about. techno-wizards might *prefer* to upgrade stuff with magic. they are, however, quite knowledgeable about how those same devices work when not upgraded with magic, and can use, modify, repair, upgrade, and in general have a very good level of skill with many high-tech gear by default, and are extremely likely to have good skills in more high-tech skills as well.

*Looks at it* I don't see anything about super high tech, cutting edge CS prototype anti-magic devices..... Do you?

Does that fall under Basic electronics do you think?

Shark you're beaten, just suck it up man. Your entire premise consists of "My side will develop tech they don't have in any of the books to win the debate." You've lost.

[Shark_Force]

so in other words, neither of you bothered to actually look up the class.

because if you had, you would know that they start off with mechanical engineer, basic electronics computer repair, operation, and programming, and have full access to all mechanical, electrical, and technical skills (with bonuses to them) including stuff like armorer, robotics, and similar high-tech skills.

seriously. go do your research before you start acting like you know what you're talking about. techno-wizards might *prefer* to upgrade stuff with magic. they are, however, quite knowledgeable about how those same devices work when not upgraded with magic, and can use, modify, repair, upgrade, and in general have a very good level of skill with many high-tech gear by default, and are extremely likely to have good skills in more high-tech skills as well.

*Looks at it* I don't see anything about super high tech, cutting edge CS prototype anti-magic devices..... Do you?

Does that fall under Basic electronics do you think?

Shark you're beaten, just suck it up man. Your entire premise consists of "My side will develop tech they don't have in any of the books to win the debate." You've lost.

tolkeen is a major center for techno-wizards. if you can't figure out that the class which has rules for developing stuff that isn't in the rulebooks printed right in the OCC is SUPPOSED to make stuff that isn't in the rulebooks, then that's your problem, not mine. i suppose next you'll be telling me that cyber-knights don't get psi-swords, ley line walkers don't get to cast spells, and rogue scholars don't get any skills or something, because your ability to figure out what the basic capabilities of a class appear to be incredibly lacking.

[Pepsi Jedi]

so in other words, neither of you bothered to actually look up the class.

because if you had, you would know that they start off with mechanical engineer, basic electronics computer repair, operation, and programming, and have full access to all mechanical, electrical, and technical skills (with bonuses to them) including stuff like armorer, robotics, and similar high-tech skills.

seriously. go do your research before you start acting like you know what you're talking about. techno-wizards might *prefer* to upgrade stuff with magic. they are, however, quite knowledgeable about how those same devices work when not upgraded with magic, and can use, modify, repair, upgrade, and in general have a very good level of skill with many high-tech gear by default, and are extremely likely to have good skills in more high-tech skills as well.

*Looks at it* I don't see anything about super high tech, cutting edge CS prototype anti-magic devices..... Do you?

Does that fall under Basic electronics do you think?

Shark you're beaten, just suck it up man. Your entire premise consists of "My side will develop tech they don't have in any of the books to win the debate." You've lost.

tolkeen is a major center for techno-wizards. if you can't figure out that the class which has rules for developing stuff that isn't in the rulebooks printed right in the OCC is SUPPOSED to make stuff that isn't in the rulebooks, then that's your problem, not mine. i suppose next you'll be telling me that cyber-knights don't get psi-swords, ley line walkers don't get to cast spells, and rogue scholars don't get any skills or something, because your ability to figure out what the basic capabilities of a class appear to be incredibly lacking.

Nope, but you fail to grasp the fact that if your invention was able to be made with the ease you seem to think it is, it'd have been done. Was it? in what.. 6 full length books?

Mmmmmmmmmmm Nope. It wasn't.

[Killer Cyborg]

Shark you're beaten, just suck it up man. Your entire premise consists of "My side will develop tech they don't have in any of the books to win the debate." You've lost.

tolkeen is a major center for techno-wizards. if you can't figure out that the class which has rules for developing stuff that isn't in the rulebooks printed right in the OCC is SUPPOSED to make stuff that isn't in the rulebooks, then that's your problem, not mine.

Any technowizard invention that is not already in the books does not officially exist.
The TW Device Creation Rules specify:
"Note: Players do not choose the exact final effects of a TW device; they only tell a Game Master what they wish the device to do. It is always the Game Master's call as to exactly how something turns out. It may be more or less powerful than the player originally thought it should be, but the player and GM can work together to improve the device."

One GM might allow a TW invention that could create and teleport 1,000 Fire Globes per melee, another GM might rule that the device can only create one Fire Globe per melee, and drop the teleport range to 10'.
And both would be within their rights as far as canon rules go; GMs are specifically given the final say, based entirely upon their own discretion (or lack therof).

What this means is that ANY argument of, "X could easily be done with TW device Y, and the writers suck for not taking this into account" is invalid.
X could easily be done with TW device Y, but X could just as easily, and just as validly, be completely impossible to achieve with TW device Y.
It depends entirely on the GM.
Just like one GM might allow an Operator to use his Mechanical Engineering skill to design and build Mechanical Device Y, but another GM might rule against it.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Shark you're beaten, just suck it up man. Your entire premise consists of "My side will develop tech they don't have in any of the books to win the debate." You've lost.

tolkeen is a major center for techno-wizards. if you can't figure out that the class which has rules for developing stuff that isn't in the rulebooks printed right in the OCC is SUPPOSED to make stuff that isn't in the rulebooks, then that's your problem, not mine.

Any technowizard invention that is not already in the books does not officially exist.
The TW Device Creation Rules specify:
"Note: Players do not choose the exact final effects of a TW device; they only tell a Game Master what they wish the device to do. It is always the Game Master's call as to exactly how something turns out. It may be more or less powerful than the player originally thought it should be, but the player and GM can work together to improve the device."

One GM might allow a TW invention that could create and teleport 1,000 Fire Globes per melee, another GM might rule that the device can only create one Fire Globe per melee, and drop the teleport range to 10'.
And both would be within their rights as far as canon rules go; GMs are specifically given the final say, based entirely upon their own discretion (or lack therof).

What this means is that ANY argument of, "X could easily be done with TW device Y, and the writers suck for not taking this into account" is invalid.
X could easily be done with TW device Y, but X could just as easily, and just as validly, be completely impossible to achieve with TW device Y.
It depends entirely on the GM.
Just like one GM might allow an Operator to use his Mechanical Engineering skill to design and build Mechanical Device Y, but another GM might rule against it.

Which was -exactly- my point. Only worded very nicely. Thanks KC

[Killer Cyborg]

I good do stuff with word thingy sometime.

[Shark_Force]

why would a TW device that does nothing more than exactly duplicate a spell be made to function completely differently from what the spell does?

technically, the GM can change things so that all lasers now have a range of blue and fire puppies that deal 7d6 sharks in damage. this is not a good basis for arguing that the CS should have lost because their sharkpuppy lasers have terrible range and can't kill anyone with remotely decent protection because they don't deal mega-damage.

it makes no more sense to assume that a TW device which is doing nothing more than exactly duplicating a spell will do something other than duplicating a spell. i mean, if you do a full-blown spell chain where you've got a superior teleport/mystic portal/lesser teleport, maybe. but this is just two devices: one creates fire globes, exactly like the spell. the other teleports objects, exactly like the spell.

and the fact that no one has done it in canon is a terrible argument as well. particularly if you're trying to use SoT as the basis for people doing everything that could reasonably be done, when the books are essentially a textbook example of the authors not thinking about the possible ideas that could be used at all.

[Killer Cyborg]

why would a TW device that does nothing more than exactly duplicate a spell be made to function completely differently from what the spell does?

That would be up to whichever GM makes the call.

technically, the GM can change things so that all lasers now have a range of blue and fire puppies that deal 7d6 sharks in damage.

They could, but it would be a house-rule.
Just like it would be a house-rule to endorse any TW device that is not listed/described in the books.

it makes no more sense to assume that a TW device which is doing nothing more than exactly duplicating a spell will do something other than duplicating a spell.

It doesn't matter whether or not it makes sense to you.
It's not about you.
The rules require each GM to make their own call, and the fact that certain calls make sense to YOU does not affect whether or not they make sense to other people, or how those GMs make their calls.

[Shark_Force]

this is palladium. a certain amount of common sense has to be used, or the game simply does not work at all.

common sense tells me that if i want to make a TW device that duplicates a spell exactly, not modifying it at all, that is a reasonable request, and one which should be allowed. just as i don't go on a rant about how you claim casters will eventually get tired because magic is work (there's no rules for that, so according to you it's not valid in any way, shape, or form for this discussion, notwithstanding you're the one who used that claim in the first place), it's silly to claim that a TW device which casts a certain spell is going to somehow result in a TW device which doesn't do remotely close to the same thing as the spell.

furthermore, the entire AMIR system is a house rule. it's optional rifter material, not official in any way; just a fan's idea for what could be, and frankly a far more improbable one than allowing TW devices that are only powered by a single spell to cast that spell exactly as the spell description says it works. i didn't see you stepping in and saying that it wasn't valid to use that for discussion at any point because it's only a house rule.

but now, all of a sudden, it's a house rule for techno-wizardry devices to be able to perform an extremely basic function of the spells they cast. yes, the GM can modify the outcome. but the same is true for anything else in the game. the GM making asinine rulings is possible, but it's not reasonable to presume that's the default.

the devices i've proposed are not something way out there, that nobody could ever dream up. they are certainly more believable than the fact that the CS just happened to figure out how to make this thing that nobody else in the entire megaverse has managed to create, and now they mass produce it for use in every one of their facilities but somehow nobody knows they exist even though they're so common now and retrofitting all of their facilities to have AMIR devices would be massively obvious.

so if we're going with a "no house rules at all" version, then i'm going back to the teleported nukes, and every important person in the entire CS is dead anyways, having been blown to bits while using the toilet because the CS has absolutely no defense (apart from house rule ones) against the teleported bomb attacks.

[Killer Cyborg]

this is palladium. a certain amount of common sense has to be used, or the game simply does not work at all.

Agreed.
But "common sense" varies, and in this case the rules specify that the results are up to the GM.
To assume that the results are NOT up to the GM, that certain devices that have not been specified to work, must work, is to go directly against the rules of the game.

i don't go on a rant about how you claim casters will eventually get tired because magic is work

I don't believe I made any such claim.

the entire AMIR system is a house rule.

Agreed.
But it's also unnecessary.

i didn't see you stepping in and saying that it wasn't valid to use that for discussion at any point because it's only a house rule.

I didn't see me addressing it at all, except in the context of a conversation that had already accepted it's existence as part of a hypothetical scenario.

but now, all of a sudden, it's a house rule for techno-wizardry devices to be able to perform an extremely basic function of the spells they cast.

Only if by "all of a sudden," you mean "since 2005."

the GM making asinine rulings is possible, but it's not reasonable to presume that's the default.

I'm glad that we're agreed on that point.

the devices i've proposed are not something way out there, that nobody could ever dream up.

Neither is a technological forcefield that is impervious to all harm, and that blocks all forms of teleportation.
People can dream up anything they like, but that doesn't mean that it exists in the game world beyond their own campaigns and adventures.

they are certainly more believable than the fact that the CS just happened to figure out how to make this thing that nobody else in the entire megaverse has managed to create, and now they mass produce it for use in every one of their facilities but somehow nobody knows they exist even though they're so common now and retrofitting all of their facilities to have AMIR devices would be massively obvious.

I understand that you personally find it to be more believable.
Do you understand that not everybody else necessarily agrees?

so if we're going with a "no house rules at all" version, then i'm going back to the teleported nukes, and every important person in the entire CS is dead anyways, having been blown to bits while using the toilet because the CS has absolutely no defense (apart from house rule ones) against the teleported bomb attacks.

But they do have defenses.
-They have the fact that it would take a long string of just the right circumstances to pull off a massive, successful attack (as already covered by pointing out that in our history, there has only been ONE attack like the 9/11 attacks, regardless of how many people hate the US, and regardless of how well-funded they are, and regardless of how cheap and easy the operation was).
-They have an army of psychics, including such a large number of clairvoyants that it is statistically impossible that any large-scale attack like you described just now would go undetected, and including nega-psychics and psi-nullifiers who are able to disrupt magic spells (such as teleport and/or fire globe), not to mention mind melters and other powerful psychics who could be used defensively or in preemptive offensive maneuvers before the attack takes place.
-They have intelligence agents, snitches, and other mundane means of detecting such an attack before it takes place, as well as carrying out assassinations of key terrorist personnel and otherwise sabotaging such a project.
-The Coalition has The Vanguard, who have their own abilities that could help protect against such attacks, through anticipation and/or negation or physical defenses.
-Their defenses are not fleshed out or described. Claiming that their defenses could not include some previously unmentioned means of protecting against such an attack is akin to claiming "X cannot equal 5," where X is an unknown quantity in an equation that does not specifically preclude the possibility that it IS, in fact, 5.


Again, COULD some sort of "let's teleport nukes" plan work? Sure.
But to claim that it MUST work, or that it's even likely to work, has no logical basis.

[Pepsi Jedi]

this is palladium. a certain amount of common sense has to be used, or the game simply does not work at all.

common sense tells me that if i want to make a TW device that duplicates a spell exactly, not modifying it at all, that is a reasonable request, and one which should be allowed. just as i don't go on a rant about how you claim casters will eventually get tired because magic is work (there's no rules for that, so according to you it's not valid in any way, shape, or form for this discussion, notwithstanding you're the one who used that claim in the first place)

this is palladium. a certain amount of common sense has to be used, or the game simply does not work at all.

Right? lol

Besides. There is fatigue rules and what not in the game. As if common sense couldn't tell you the same thing. But, I've often found, Common sense, rarely is common. Especially in games.

, it's silly to claim that a TW device which casts a certain spell is going to somehow result in a TW device which doesn't do remotely close to the same thing as the spell.

Sort of like it's silly to think one peice of TW, that is not in any of the books, Could have simply won a war, with it's simplicity, and some how bi pass stuff that is in the books?

Again, refer above to the "I'm going to invent X to get around the books" and the resulting "Then I'll just invent Y to stop your X invention" Postings.

furthermore, the entire AMIR system is a house rule. it's optional rifter material, not official in any way;

It is in a rifter. Multiple ones actually, so technically it is optional. But it's not a house rule. It's published in Palladium's books by them. So it's vetted by them as working the way it's printed.

just a fan's idea for what could be,

No.. It's been published in more than one Rifter as standing stuff in Rifts. While optional it's alot more than 'Just one fan's idea for what could be.'.

That's what YOUR doing.

and frankly a far more improbable one than allowing TW devices that are only powered by a single spell to cast that spell exactly as the spell description says it works. i didn't see you stepping in and saying that it wasn't valid to use that for discussion at any point because it's only a house rule.

Because I don't have to. Again, as I pointed out many posts ago. If your'e just going to go "It's only in a rifter. I'm not using it" Then there's no point in the debate. Your mage forces could have teleported in at any point in CS history, in the past 100 years and killed off the leadership. They're revolting morons of the highest calibur for never doing so, and our entire debate about it is moot.

Right?

but now, all of a sudden, it's a house rule for techno-wizardry devices to be able to perform an extremely basic function of the spells they cast. yes, the GM can modify the outcome. but the same is true for anything else in the game. the GM making asinine rulings is possible, but it's not reasonable to presume that's the default.

lol but that's not what you're doing. You're sayign you're going to invent a TW thing, to bipass the rules, to pump out unlimited bombs. That's a bit different and you know it. You're just stomping around and waving your hands and making a fuss.

You're the one tryng to end run the rules man. And it still boils down to the fact, your invention's not in the books. --- at all---- and to even try and get where you wanna be, your GM has to agree to it. In my games, you'd get harassed endlessly for such twinky crap. "Oh I'm going to build a machine to make endless bombs at no cost, to win war" Yep. We'd make fun of you. Alot, for that.

the devices i've proposed are not something way out there,

Yet noone here agrees with you.

that nobody could ever dream up. they are certainly more believable than the fact that the CS just happened to figure out how to make this thing that nobody else in the entire megaverse has managed to create,

Clearly Kevin thinks differently as that thing has been published twice, and in dozens and dozens and dozens of rifts books some 100% about magic and magic items. Your creation has never once seen print.

And again... as I've told you like.. three times now? It's not said that noone else in the megaverse has, and has implied someone else does, as someone helped the CS to make it. And again.... we don't have very many bases around the megaverse detailed, do we?

and now they mass produce it for use in every one of their facilities but somehow nobody knows they exist even though they're so common now

Extreamly easy. You build the parts over a number of factories and machine shops spread out over your realm. Most of the CS populace can't read. They're taken in, told to make Part "X" and do so. The machine shop or factory might not know what it's for. They just get specs to make it. Like a million other parts that are needed (( I mean come on. dozens of different robot vechiles and such have to have millions and millions of very specialized parts.)) They make part "X" and ship it off to the next station.

Or even simplier. Being ultra top secret, you have skelebots build them in a secret part of _____. Then they're shipped out. Skelebots aren't talking. Program them to clear their memroies and self destruct at ANY sign of ANY unauthorized personel. Not capture, not damage. "I see someone not on the short list walk in I blow up my own brain"

and retrofitting all of their facilities to have AMIR devices would be massively obvious.

If I hadn't already explained it once.....
But.... noone reads....

They're not obvious because noone watches sewer workers that close, and they don't install it labled "SUPER TOP SECRET ANTI MAGIC DEVICE" They go in doing "Routine matenance" for the sewer system, and install it as a waste pipe or something, among dozens if not 100s of others.

How often do mages check the quality of the CS's poop Shark?

so if we're going with a "no house rules at all" version, then i'm going back to the teleported nukes, and every important person in the entire CS is dead anyways, having been blown to bits while using the toilet because the CS has absolutely no defense (apart from house rule ones) against the teleported bomb attacks.

Again, you're trying to down grade things. Multiple printings in more than one Rifter is more than a house rule. It is optional, but it toally covers why that didnt' happen.

If you want to totally ignore the AMI. that's fine, but then you're stuck with no CS in your game. Hope you enjoy it. (( Some might))

But I'd like to quote something for you......

this is palladium. a certain amount of common sense has to be used, or the game simply does not work at all.

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