The CS grunt should get as many skills as a Vagabond

[csbioborg]

As you know the CS grunt gets the bottom of the barrel in terms of skills bonuses etc
the main arguement is the CS grunt dosen't get trained for as long as most OCCs
eg the cyber knight or llw takes years to get to that level

well that's a valid point
the CS grunt is sorta the equivalent of the modern day United States Marine
he was probably hanging out and getting drunk one day with his friends in his hometown until the CS recruiter came coming around
or he was on his farm and decided to see the world
or he was living in chi town going to school
or we don't know

well unlike most OCCs that 18-20 years of doing whatever you please much like the vagabond
so logically he should be getting all sorts of secondary skils
let's take a look at it storywise
Johnny and Billy both grow up in the sametown
Billy heads off in a beat up pick up truck after high school to see the world
Johny enlists
or vica versa both are going to have the same amount of hobbies desire etc

[csbioborg]

a grunt should get as many skills as a vagabond because he is basically a vagabond that went to a three month boot camp

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

A Vagabond is meant to be a "Jack of All Trades, Master of None." A CS Grunt is not.

~ Josh

[csbioborg]

a vagabond is meant to be well a vagabond
just a regular joe that's picked up a variety of skills while bumming around
a grunt really is just a regular guy that went to boot

unlike a llw or cyberknight that obviously needs to train on just their skill for years prior

[Dr. Doom III]

A Vagabond has nothing besides his skills. A grunt has a lot. It`s what passes for balance in Rifts.

[csbioborg]

A Vagabond has nothing besides his skills. A grunt has a lot. It`s what passes for balance in Rifts.

the GM can toss him a suit of armor and rifle
he can't give the CS grunt the same
from a story perspective it breaks verisimilitude

[Crucible]

The grunt is intended to be just that...a grunt. There are skills a grunt can get that a vagabond cannot. Different 100%. Also a Vagabond, contrary to common belief, is not a generic OCC but rather an OCC that is intended to give you an idea of a nomad or basic rough and tumble guy who knows a little bit about something. Sometimes the most valuable character in a group.

The CS Grunt is a tough guy. I always looked at the grunt like a stormtrooper, skill specific, and easily the most changeable class in the game. As a Grunt, if there is such a thing as cross classing I allow it with a Grunt more than anyone because he can easily train and go to Military Specialist, Special Forces, etc. The Vagabond...juicer or borg...MAYBE.

[rat_bastard]

The Grunt is intellectually held back by the CS, deliberately kept ignorant. The vagabond has to learn or die.

[csbioborg]

The Grunt is intellectually held back by the CS, deliberately kept ignorant. The vagabond has to learn or die.

So for the first 18 years of life these guys were doing nothing eh?
Not working on a farm learning the trade?
Not working in their dad's mechanic shop?
Not running wild and learning the streets of chi town?
Not growing up in firetown learning maybe a little to much about those ancient books Old man Jim owns?
Not growing up in the high echelons of Chi Town training to be a engineer until he gets in trouble with the law and gets forced to enlist?

If the CS has some rigid indoctrination from birth then fine. All grunt should get h2h hand commando, demo skills, sharp shooting etc
However that's not how its written
In fact many if not most grunts either come from the burbs or surrounding CS towns. If the CS were able to hold the burbies indoctrinated then we would not have four books on what a mess the burbs are. These guys go from civilians to grunts in a matter of months and come from all manner of walks of life

[Dustin Fireblade]

The Grunt is intellectually held back by the CS, deliberately kept ignorant. The vagabond has to learn or die.

So for the first 18 years of life these guys were doing nothing eh?
Not working on a farm learning the trade?
Not working in their dad's mechanic shop?
Not running wild and learning the streets of chi town?
Not growing up in firetown learning maybe a little to much about those ancient books Old man Jim owns?
Not growing up in the high echelons of Chi Town training to be a engineer until he gets in trouble with the law and gets forced to enlist?

Those would be the Secondary skills.

[csbioborg]

The Grunt is intellectually held back by the CS, deliberately kept ignorant. The vagabond has to learn or die.

So for the first 18 years of life these guys were doing nothing eh?
Not working on a farm learning the trade?
Not working in their dad's mechanic shop?
Not running wild and learning the streets of chi town?
Not growing up in firetown learning maybe a little to much about those ancient books Old man Jim owns?
Not growing up in the high echelons of Chi Town training to be a engineer until he gets in trouble with the law and gets forced to enlist?

Those would be the Secondary skills.

sure and he should get a whole lot more than he gets now. I don't have the books in front of me but the amount of secondary skills they get are among if not the worst in the game.

[Killer Cyborg]

As you know the CS grunt gets the bottom of the barrel in terms of skills bonuses etc
the main arguement is the CS grunt dosen't get trained for as long as most OCCs
eg the cyber knight or llw takes years to get to that level

well that's a valid point
the CS grunt is sorta the equivalent of the modern day United States Marine
he was probably hanging out and getting drunk one day with his friends in his hometown until the CS recruiter came coming around
or he was on his farm and decided to see the world
or he was living in chi town going to school
or we don't know

well unlike most OCCs that 18-20 years of doing whatever you please much like the vagabond
so logically he should be getting all sorts of secondary skils
let's take a look at it storywise
Johnny and Billy both grow up in the sametown
Billy heads off in a beat up pick up truck after high school to see the world
Johny enlists
or vica versa both are going to have the same amount of hobbies desire etc

With all due respect. . . Huh?

I think he's waiting for the recruiter to show up.

[Killer Cyborg]

A first level vagabond gets 14 OCC skills at first level, plus 5 OCC related, plus 8 Secondary Skills. That's a total of 27 skills.
A first level CS Grunt gets the equivalent of 16 OCC skills at first level, plus 7 OCC related skills, plus 5 Secondary skills. That's a total of 28 skills.

A 15th level Vagabond gets everything listed above, plus 4 more OCC related skills, plus 6 more Secondary Skills, for a total of 37 skills.
A 15th level CS Grunt gets everything listed above, plus 4 more OCC related skills, plus 3 more Secondary skills, for a total of 35 skills.

So at first level, the Grunt has the equivalent of one more skill over the Vagabond.
At 15th level, the Vagabond has two more skills over the CS Grunt.

I don't see the big deal. For the vast majority of Grunts and Vagabonds, 15th level is just a pipe dream anyway.

[The Beast]

A first level vagabond gets 14 OCC skills at first level, plus 5 OCC related, plus 8 Secondary Skills. That's a total of 27 skills.
A first level CS Grunt gets the equivalent of 16 OCC skills at first level, plus 7 OCC related skills, plus 5 Secondary skills. That's a total of 28 skills.

A 15th level Vagabond gets everything listed above, plus 4 more OCC related skills, plus 6 more Secondary Skills, for a total of 37 skills.
A 15th level CS Grunt gets everything listed above, plus 4 more OCC related skills, plus 3 more Secondary skills, for a total of 35 skills.

So at first level, the Grunt has the equivalent of one more skill over the Vagabond.
At 15th level, the Vagabond has two more skills over the CS Grunt.

I don't see the big deal. For the vast majority of Grunts and Vagabonds players, 15th level is just a pipe dream anyway.

Fixed.

[Killer Cyborg]

A first level vagabond gets 14 OCC skills at first level, plus 5 OCC related, plus 8 Secondary Skills. That's a total of 27 skills.
A first level CS Grunt gets the equivalent of 16 OCC skills at first level, plus 7 OCC related skills, plus 5 Secondary skills. That's a total of 28 skills.

A 15th level Vagabond gets everything listed above, plus 4 more OCC related skills, plus 6 more Secondary Skills, for a total of 37 skills.
A 15th level CS Grunt gets everything listed above, plus 4 more OCC related skills, plus 3 more Secondary skills, for a total of 35 skills.

So at first level, the Grunt has the equivalent of one more skill over the Vagabond.
At 15th level, the Vagabond has two more skills over the CS Grunt.

I don't see the big deal. For the vast majority of Grunts and Vagabonds players, 15th level is just a pipe dream anyway.

Fixed.

Characters too.
The average character level is 1-2.

[MikelAmroni]

Yeah when I redid all of the CS OCCs, I found that the Grunt really was an unsung hero in terms of skills. I mean seriously, they get a lot of options.

When I added in the options of MOS, I actually gave them a very narrow focus beyond the grunt as presented, but it didn't mean all that much - most of the skills could already be chosen. The MOS's I used were Armor Crew, CQB Specialist, Comm Specialist, Cook, EOD, Infantryman, Forward Observer, Field Medical Corpsman, Military Police, Target Acquisition Group M.O.S; Doing so allowed me to consolidate some of the new OCCs from CS War Campaign (and one from the Rifter), as well as provide a reason why the army can get by with only so many tech officers (I call them Tech Specialists). Field Medical Corpsman, Comm Specialist, and EOD are pretty much the only ones with skills the Grunt can't pick, and those are specific to the MOS.

To reiterate: Here are the OCC related Categories from RUE (not my revisions):
Category/RUE CS Grunt/RUE Vagabond

Communications: /Any +5% /Any (except Crypto, Laser Comms, Optic Systems, or Surveilance)
Cowboy: /None /Branding, Breakign Horses, or Herding Cattle only
Domestic: /Any /Any (+10%)
Electrical: /Basic only /Basic Only (+5%)
Espionage: /None /None
Horsemanship: /None /General Only
Mechanical: /Auto and Basic only /Basic and Auto only (+5%)
Medical: /First Aid only /First Aid only (+5%)
Military: /Any (+15%) /None
Physical: /Any (except Acrobatics) /Any (except Acro, Gymnastics, and Wrestling)
Pilot: /Any (+5%) /Any (+5%; except Jets, Ships, Power Armor, Robots, and Military Vehicles)
Pilot related: /Any /Any
Rogue: /Any /Any (+4%)
Science: /Math (Both), Astronomy, and Navigation only /Math (Both), Astronomy, and Navigation only
Technical: /Any (+5%) /Any (+5%)
WP: /Any /Any (except Military or Heavy Weapons)
Wilderness: /Carpentry, Hunting and Land Nav only /Any

Moral of the Story: They are the same, but different. They have advantages in certain categories, but those are actually rather well balanced and make perfect sense when you take the fluff into account.
Advantage of the Vagabond: Eye Ball a Fella; Advantage of the CS Grunt: membership in one of the best equipped and supplied (overall) armies in North America and a steady (if small) paycheck.

[gaaahhhh]

As you know the CS grunt gets the bottom of the barrel in terms of skills bonuses etc
the main arguement is the CS grunt dosen't get trained for as long as most OCCs
eg the cyber knight or llw takes years to get to that level

well that's a valid point
the CS grunt is sorta the equivalent of the modern day United States Marine
he was probably hanging out and getting drunk one day with his friends in his hometown until the CS recruiter came coming around
or he was on his farm and decided to see the world
or he was living in chi town going to school
or we don't know

well unlike most OCCs that 18-20 years of doing whatever you please much like the vagabond
so logically he should be getting all sorts of secondary skils
let's take a look at it storywise
Johnny and Billy both grow up in the sametown
Billy heads off in a beat up pick up truck after high school to see the world
Johny enlists
or vica versa both are going to have the same amount of hobbies desire etc

I guess the real question-Does this make the Vagabond in your example 18-20 years old or 36-40? Cause it sounds like a 36-40 year old vagabound-That is unless?

The person was born a Vagabond?
So they are a Vagabond from one day old?

Baby Vagabond?

How many Skill Selections do you guys think a baby Vagabond should get?

All of them.

[rat_bastard]

The Grunt is intellectually held back by the CS, deliberately kept ignorant. The vagabond has to learn or die.

So for the first 18 years of life these guys were doing nothing eh?
Not working on a farm learning the trade?
Not working in their dad's mechanic shop?
Not running wild and learning the streets of chi town?
Not growing up in firetown learning maybe a little to much about those ancient books Old man Jim owns?
Not growing up in the high echelons of Chi Town training to be a engineer until he gets in trouble with the law and gets forced to enlist?

If the CS has some rigid indoctrination from birth then fine. All grunt should get h2h hand commando, demo skills, sharp shooting etc
However that's not how its written
In fact many if not most grunts either come from the burbs or surrounding CS towns. If the CS were able to hold the burbies indoctrinated then we would not have four books on what a mess the burbs are. These guys go from civilians to grunts in a matter of months and come from all manner of walks of life

None of your whining changes the fact that a CS grunt is a milk fed veal compared to someone who grows into the vagabond class.

[Killer Cyborg]

So at first level, the Grunt has the equivalent of one more skill over the Vagabond.
At 15th level, the Vagabond has two more skills over the CS Grunt.

/thread.

Actually, I might have missed something:
I counted "Robot Combat Basic" as one skill, but iirc it has been officially ruled that classes that start with this skill also automatically (and logically) start with the skill "Pilot: Robots & Power Armor."
If so, then the Grunt would have 2 extra skills over the Vagabond at first level, and the Vagabond would only be up by 1 skill at 15th level.
Just to drive the point home a bit more.

[MikelAmroni]

actually, ive fel the CS gets short shrift in general. i'd have it you're a vagabond or whatever to level 3 or whatever, then beccome a CS grunt (WITH literacy, english at base level, and without increasing that).

Or you know, you can select literacy as a secondary skill AS a Grunt. That would work too

[Crucible]

csbioborg

First go back and read my above post.

Now, you do understand that the Grunt is the most untrained and expendable character class in the game right? Blame the CS for that because the skilled guys who spent time doing all that you have mentioned? They have other classes for them. Grunt is the most uneducated, taken fresh at 17-18, and no nothing class there is.

If they are any more skilled they become Tech. Officers, Military Specialists, Pilots, Rangers, Special Forces, Navy, Naval Infantrymen, Navy Special Forces, Rifts Scientists, and a few others. If you LOVE the Grunt so much then tweak them. Can't tell you that you cannot. BUT!!! They have a specific base of skills and can go in a direction (skill wise) that can easily make a player character Grunt into a powerhouse character.

I had one a few years back (actually being played as having "gone native") and he WAS the groups "Beast Mode". No tweaks, no extras, no mess, no fuss. One the best played characters ever. Skills? Pssht! That's what makes a GRUNT a GRUNT..."Who needs a butt load of skills, when I can kick your tail back to whatever D-Beeverse you came from!?"

[Killer Cyborg]

Now, you do understand that the Grunt is the most untrained and expendable character class in the game right?

I don't understand that.
Care to make out a chart that compares each OCC and their skills, or otherwise show what you're talking about?
I've never made a full analysis, but the grunt seems to start off pretty skilled compared to average citizens, and seems to hold up pretty well against other PC OCCs.

And they're certainly more skilled than Dragons.

[Crucible]

Now, you do understand that the Grunt is the most untrained and expendable character class in the game right?

I don't understand that.
Care to make out a chart that compares each OCC and their skills, or otherwise show what you're talking about?
I've never made a full analysis, but the grunt seems to start off pretty skilled compared to average citizens, and seems to hold up pretty well against other PC OCCs.

And they're certainly more skilled than Dragons.

I actually meant CS, not game. My mistake in context and being quick fingered. You DID read everything right? Not just a point out a flaw in a post type MB thing I'm sure.



Also, we are not talking average citizen (which is not an OCC) or RCC (which are not classes). The idea is character class. The Grunt is what it is man. It is a Grunt. This particular OCC can go straight beast mode in a heart beat and can sometimes be pivotal. Comparing the Grunt to a Vagabond is a mistake in understanding of what a Vagabond is in Rifts I think.

[Killer Cyborg]

I actually meant CS, not game.

Gotcha.
Nevermind.

Comparing the Grunt to a Vagabond is a mistake in understanding of what a Vagabond is in Rifts I think.

Agreed.

[Crucible]

I actually meant CS, not game.

Gotcha.
Nevermind.

Comparing the Grunt to a Vagabond is a mistake in understanding of what a Vagabond is in Rifts I think.

Agreed.

Yeah, I didn't realize until you called me on it that it had been stated very wrong.

[The Baron of chaos]

Also, we are not talking average citizen (which is not an OCC) or RCC (which are not classes). The idea is character class. The Grunt is what it is man. It is a Grunt. This particular OCC can go straight beast mode in a heart beat and can sometimes be pivotal. Comparing the Grunt to a Vagabond is a mistake in understanding of what a Vagabond is in Rifts I think.

Is the most sensed thing i've heard on ths board since a lot. OCCs are not a tool, rather a definition of a typology of character, they don't exactly definea job, but more a the most type of person practicing the job in question. comparing the classed amongst each other is generally a mistake(excpet when pointing out the flaws of soem psionic power compared to spells, but that is another question altogether).

[Faceless Dude]

So for the first 18 years of life these guys were doing nothing eh?
Not working on a farm learning the trade?
Not working in their dad's mechanic shop?
Not running wild and learning the streets of chi town?
Not growing up in firetown learning maybe a little to much about those ancient books Old man Jim owns?
Not growing up in the high echelons of Chi Town training to be a engineer until he gets in trouble with the law and gets forced to enlist?

Any organized military machine is going to subject it's recruits to any number of aptitude tests as well. Tests designed to identify anyone with specialized knowledge and place them there. The guy working in his dad's mechanic shop, if he picked up those skills would likely become a CS Tech officer or even possibly an RPA flyboy. Same with the guy who was training to be an engineer but got in trouble with the law. Though if it was SERIOUS trouble, he might find himself in EOD training too, poor guy. If the kid from Firetown decided to enlist rather than follow a calling to be a Rogue Scholar, chances are he'd be assigned work in the RCSG.

Bottom line, if the battery of aptitude tests that the Coalition certainly administers indicates that you're going to be a grunt, you're going to be a grunt. And you're in that slot because you don't have the skills needed to be useful elsewhere.

[slade the sniper]

So for the first 18 years of life these guys were doing nothing eh?
Not working on a farm learning the trade?
Not working in their dad's mechanic shop?
Not running wild and learning the streets of chi town?
Not growing up in firetown learning maybe a little to much about those ancient books Old man Jim owns?
Not growing up in the high echelons of Chi Town training to be a engineer until he gets in trouble with the law and gets forced to enlist?

Any organized military machine is going to subject it's recruits to any number of aptitude tests as well. Tests designed to identify anyone with specialized knowledge and place them there. The guy working in his dad's mechanic shop, if he picked up those skills would likely become a CS Tech officer or even possibly an RPA flyboy. Same with the guy who was training to be an engineer but got in trouble with the law. Though if it was SERIOUS trouble, he might find himself in EOD training too, poor guy. If the kid from Firetown decided to enlist rather than follow a calling to be a Rogue Scholar, chances are he'd be assigned work in the RCSG.

Bottom line, if the battery of aptitude tests that the Coalition certainly administers indicates that you're going to be a grunt, you're going to be a grunt. And you're in that slot because you don't have the skills needed to be useful elsewhere.

Ouch...good thing this is a game and not the way the real world works...since some people CHOOSE to be grunts even though they could do something else with their lives.

-STS

[Zer0 Kay]

Now, you do understand that the Grunt is the most untrained and expendable character class in the game right?

I don't understand that.
Care to make out a chart that compares each OCC and their skills, or otherwise show what you're talking about?
I've never made a full analysis, but the grunt seems to start off pretty skilled compared to average citizens, and seems to hold up pretty well against other PC OCCs.

And they're certainly more skilled than Dragons.

@KC: Good point if we need to complain about a class that has way too few skills it would be the dragon since they're apparently born with all their skills so the skills would be genetic memory... I'm pretty sure their father and mother and both sets of grand parents and all four sets of great grand parents had more skills than what a hatchling has.

@whoever: Everyone needs more secondary to reflect 18 years of life prior to their OCC... but they don't get it. Everyone is from 18 plus the Vagabond has more skills after 18 than a CS soldier because he has more freedom to learn and less field exercise requirements. Now if they had a CS Guard/Reserve Grunt then MAYBE they'd get more but still CS Grunt = Low class CS citizen = little to no education = what do you want cook, running, dancing, basic math, MAYBE streetsmart (stuff required and picked up in the meager, sheltered, unfavored life of a burbite)? Maybe everyone needs to roll on a table to see what pre 18 skills they get described as where they came from... could have sworn one of the PB games did that, maybe BtS??

[Killer Cyborg]

Everyone needs more secondary to reflect 18 years of life prior to their OCC... but they don't get it.

How many secondary skills do you think an average person in Rifts Earth should have at age 18?
(though I don't remember anything saying that this is the age that an OCC starts)

[Zer0 Kay]

Everyone needs more secondary to reflect 18 years of life prior to their OCC... but they don't get it.

How many secondary skills do you think an average person in Rifts Earth should have at age 18?
(though I don't remember anything saying that this is the age that an OCC starts)

For an OCC... none. To equal the amount a real person has, many. I think the OP thinks that characters are supposed to be like people IRL. The statement you quoted, yeah I needed an emote for sarcasm. Last time I used roll though someone got butthurt so I was hoping the sarcasm would be evident. Fail on my part.

[Killer Cyborg]

Everyone needs more secondary to reflect 18 years of life prior to their OCC... but they don't get it.

How many secondary skills do you think an average person in Rifts Earth should have at age 18?
(though I don't remember anything saying that this is the age that an OCC starts)

For an OCC... none. To equal the amount a real person has, many.

How many?

I think the OP thinks that characters are supposed to be like people IRL. The statement you quoted, yeah I needed an emote for sarcasm. Last time I used roll though someone got butthurt so I was hoping the sarcasm would be evident. Fail on my part.

Okay.

[Zer0 Kay]

Everyone needs more secondary to reflect 18 years of life prior to their OCC... but they don't get it.

How many secondary skills do you think an average person in Rifts Earth should have at age 18?
(though I don't remember anything saying that this is the age that an OCC starts)

For an OCC... none. To equal the amount a real person has, many.

How many?

I think the OP thinks that characters are supposed to be like people IRL. The statement you quoted, yeah I needed an emote for sarcasm. Last time I used roll though someone got butthurt so I was hoping the sarcasm would be evident. Fail on my part.

Okay.

Uh... does the Okay mean you no longer expect a serious answer to the first question? If I was serious and we were foolish enough to try to give characters as many skills as we have in real life... it would be rediculous. Don't you think? Or do you opperate on the basis that the characters do have those skill but the listed ones are the only ones they'd seriously be able to do anything with?

[Killer Cyborg]

If I was serious and we were foolish enough to try to give characters as many skills as we have in real life... it would be rediculous. Don't you think?

No.
Hence my question.
I'm curious how many skills you think a person really would have by age 18 (in the world of Rifts especially).

Or do you opperate on the basis that the characters do have those skill but the listed ones are the only ones they'd seriously be able to do anything with?

I'd say that they don't have the skill unless it's something that they've put some serious time and effort into, along the lines of a college level course for a lot of skills, though some could get away with high school level training.

Back when I was in High School, I rolled up myself as a Rifts character, and the only OCC I could qualify for was Vagabond.
I'd taken high school biology, geology, German I, and other classes, but even giving myself a lot of benefit of doubt there weren't that many skills that I actually qualified for in my opinion.

[Zer0 Kay]

If I was serious and we were foolish enough to try to give characters as many skills as we have in real life... it would be rediculous. Don't you think?

No.
Hence my question.
I'm curious how many skills you think a person really would have by age 18 (in the world of Rifts especially).

Or do you opperate on the basis that the characters do have those skill but the listed ones are the only ones they'd seriously be able to do anything with?

I'd say that they don't have the skill unless it's something that they've put some serious time and effort into, along the lines of a college level course for a lot of skills, though some could get away with high school level training.

Back when I was in High School, I rolled up myself as a Rifts character, and the only OCC I could qualify for was Vagabond.
I'd taken high school biology, geology, German I, and other classes, but even giving myself a lot of benefit of doubt there weren't that many skills that I actually qualified for in my opinion.

Well lets see by 18 I had:
Math: Basic
Cooking (secondary skill)
Computer Operation
Computer Programing (secondary skill)
Computer Repair
Military Etiquette
Military Drill (as in marching not tactical practice)
Pilot: Aircraft: Single Engine... if we want to be specific
WP Bolt Actions Rifle (should include lever action too)
WP Automatic and Semi Automatic Rifles (M16 NOT AR15)
WP Shotgun
WP Revolver
WP Heavy (only the M60)
WP what ever you'd call a Tech 9 Semi Automatic
Pilot Automobile (they really need two skills automatic and manual )
Pilot Motor Boat
Land Navigation (Orienteering with map and compass not by stars... most certainly with landmarks)
Language and Literacy: English... but my Literacy skills are secondary I certainly have too many spelling and gramatic errors to be professional, plus I like to use elipsis way too much... but that would be classified as writing though wouldn't it.
Carpentry
Identify Plants and Fruits
Preserve Food
Wilderness Survival
First Aid
Climbing

That is before I ever got a job. Jobs following (no skills) were

Spoiler:

General Laborer at a green house 18
Courtesy Clerk (glorified bagger) at a grocery store 19-20
Sales Associate at a computer store 20-21
Tech. Writer later job same computer store 21-24
Sales Associate at a different computer store 25-27
Ground Radar Technician in the USAF 27-34
NCOIC of Ground Radar in the USAF 34-36
Unemployed... in my parents house 36-37
Game Tester at Microsoft 37
UNEMPLOYED... still in my parents house 37

Or before I received my college degreeS (again without skills because I don't want to cotemplate it)

Spoiler:

Associate of Applied Science in Computer and Networking Technology with a focus on Novell Netware 21
Bachelor of Science in Techinical Management with a concentration in Business Information Systems 31
Bachelor of Science in Ground Radar Technologies 31
Master of Science in Business Administration with a concentration in Information Security 35
NOW I'm working on a Bachelor of Arts in Ministoral Leadership 37
Later Youth Ministry Leadership cirtification 39
Much Later Master of Arts in Theology and Society 40
Much Much Later Doctor of Ministry ??

But my thing with the game system and life.
Player: I want to build a catapult
GM: Roll Engineering
Player: I don't have it
GM: Then you can't do it
Player: But I can
GM: But your character doesn't
Player: But you said our characters were based off of us
GM: Yup
Player: So I can do it?
GM: Nope
Player: But I can do it.
GM: Then you should have put engineering
Player: But I don't have engineering
GM: Yeah, so I guess you can't do it
Player: Fine I throw a rock at the wall
GM: All their archers fire at you... your dead.
Player: Awesome, I'm going to get some breakfast now and come back and kill you with a spork.
GM: Hey while your out, can you pick me up a Monster Low Carb... Do you have WP Spork?

[Killer Cyborg]

Well lets see by 18 I had:
Math: Basic

Gotcha.

Cooking (secondary skill)

Plausible.
Most people don't have that skill, though; they just have a couple of dishes they can make, and the rest is from a box, can, or bag.

Computer Operation

Makes sense.

Computer Programing (secondary skill)
Computer Repair

Perfectly plausible, but most people don't have these skills.
I could do some Basic programs, but that's about it.

Military Etiquette

Keeping in mind that this is above the normal training and experience that most soldiers get?

Military Drill (as in marching not tactical practice)

Jr. ROTC or something?

Pilot: Aircraft: Single Engine... if we want to be specific

License and everything?
(again, and with the military skills, not common.)

WP Bolt Actions Rifle (should include lever action too)
WP Automatic and Semi Automatic Rifles (M16 NOT AR15)
WP Shotgun
WP Revolver

Weapon Proficiencies highlight one of the problems with the Palladium skill system.
You could spend a skill and learn to pilot an airplane.... or you could learn how to use and recognize the quality of revolvers.
Not automatics, not any other kind of gun... just revolvers. You get a pepperbox, or a derringer, and you're stumped.
The pilot skill takes a couple years at least, the second takes a month, tops.

In any case... I could use various firearms, but I couldn't disassemble them for proper cleaning, and I didn't know enough about various makes, models, and styles to recognize weapon quality.

WP Heavy (only the M60)

Then it's not WP Heavy.

WP what ever you'd call a Tech 9 Semi Automatic

SMG?
But then again, if you only ever used the Tech 9, you wouldn't qualify for the entire weapon proficiency.

Pilot Automobile (they really need two skills automatic and manual )

They have that in the older books, I think.
Though if you can drive a manual, you can drive an automatic.

Pilot Motor Boat

Most people won't have it, but a lot would.
Of the people who do, though, not a lot would also know how to fly a plane and such.

Land Navigation (Orienteering with map and compass not by stars... most certainly with landmarks)

Again, not a common skill.

Language and Literacy: English... but my Literacy skills are secondary I certainly have too many spelling and gramatic errors to be professional, plus I like to use elipsis way too much... but that would be classified as writing though wouldn't it.

Literacy is standard in our society, but not for Rifts Earth.

Carpentry

I'm skeptical on this one.
It generally takes 3-4 years of training to become an actual carpenter.
A lot of people in high school can nail boards together, but that's not the same as the actual skill.
Build a lot of houses and furniture, did you?

Identify Plants and Fruits

Perhaps.

Preserve Food
Wilderness Survival

You were smoking fish and game in high school?
Again, not usual.

As for Wilderness Survival, keep in mind it's living in the wild without supplies indefinitely. Man vs. Wild stuff.
If you had that skill in high school, I guess you're just awesome.
It's not normal.

First Aid

We learned some of the basics in health class, but not enough to get a certificate or anything.

Climbing

I had that, but without the ropes and rappelling.

In any case... All told, it looks like you had about 21 skills by the time you were 18, which is about right for a first level character.
Especially since 3 of them are granted automatically in this society.

[Crucible]

If I was serious and we were foolish enough to try to give characters as many skills as we have in real life... it would be rediculous. Don't you think?

No.
Hence my question.
I'm curious how many skills you think a person really would have by age 18 (in the world of Rifts especially).

Or do you opperate on the basis that the characters do have those skill but the listed ones are the only ones they'd seriously be able to do anything with?

I'd say that they don't have the skill unless it's something that they've put some serious time and effort into, along the lines of a college level course for a lot of skills, though some could get away with high school level training.

Back when I was in High School, I rolled up myself as a Rifts character, and the only OCC I could qualify for was Vagabond.
I'd taken high school biology, geology, German I, and other classes, but even giving myself a lot of benefit of doubt there weren't that many skills that I actually qualified for in my opinion.

Well lets see by 18 I had:
Math: Basic
Cooking (secondary skill)
Computer Operation
Computer Programing (secondary skill)
Computer Repair
Military Etiquette
Military Drill (as in marching not tactical practice)
Pilot: Aircraft: Single Engine... if we want to be specific
WP Bolt Actions Rifle (should include lever action too)
WP Automatic and Semi Automatic Rifles (M16 NOT AR15)
WP Shotgun
WP Revolver
WP Heavy (only the M60)
WP what ever you'd call a Tech 9 Semi Automatic
Pilot Automobile (they really need two skills automatic and manual )
Pilot Motor Boat
Land Navigation (Orienteering with map and compass not by stars... most certainly with landmarks)
Language and Literacy: English... but my Literacy skills are secondary I certainly have too many spelling and gramatic errors to be professional, plus I like to use elipsis way too much... but that would be classified as writing though wouldn't it.
Carpentry
Identify Plants and Fruits
Preserve Food
Wilderness Survival
First Aid
Climbing

That is before I ever got a job. Jobs following (no skills) were

Spoiler:

General Laborer at a green house 18
Courtesy Clerk (glorified bagger) at a grocery store 19-20
Sales Associate at a computer store 20-21
Tech. Writer later job same computer store 21-24
Sales Associate at a different computer store 25-27
Ground Radar Technician in the USAF 27-34
NCOIC of Ground Radar in the USAF 34-36
Unemployed... in my parents house 36-37
Game Tester at Microsoft 37
UNEMPLOYED... still in my parents house 37

Or before I received my college degreeS (again without skills because I don't want to cotemplate it)

Spoiler:

Associate of Applied Science in Computer and Networking Technology with a focus on Novell Netware 21
Bachelor of Science in Techinical Management with a concentration in Business Information Systems 31
Bachelor of Science in Ground Radar Technologies 31
Master of Science in Business Administration with a concentration in Information Security 35
NOW I'm working on a Bachelor of Arts in Ministoral Leadership 37
Later Youth Ministry Leadership cirtification 39
Much Later Master of Arts in Theology and Society 40
Much Much Later Doctor of Ministry ??

But my thing with the game system and life.
Player: I want to build a catapult
GM: Roll Engineering
Player: I don't have it
GM: Then you can't do it
Player: But I can
GM: But your character doesn't
Player: But you said our characters were based off of us
GM: Yup
Player: So I can do it?
GM: Nope
Player: But I can do it.
GM: Then you should have put engineering
Player: But I don't have engineering
GM: Yeah, so I guess you can't do it
Player: Fine I throw a rock at the wall
GM: All their archers fire at you... your dead.
Player: Awesome, I'm going to get some breakfast now and come back and kill you with a spork.
GM: Hey while your out, can you pick me up a Monster Low Carb... Do you have WP Spork?

You and I seem to have some things in common. Based on the game, though, what I look at is the skills being things that you spent extra time working on. If I actually sat with you and made you into a character, there would not be as many skills as you may think.

I repeat, you and I have many things in common.

[Zer0 Kay]

Well lets see by 18 I had:
Math: Basic

Gotcha.

Cooking (secondary skill)

Plausible.
Most people don't have that skill, though; they just have a couple of dishes they can make, and the rest is from a box, can, or bag.
Well enough to take random cut of meat and various ingredients and make a good stead with either a double baked potato or scalloped potatoes from scratch.

Computer Operation

Makes sense.

Computer Programing (secondary skill)
Computer Repair

Perfectly plausible, but most people don't have these skills.
I could do some Basic programs, but that's about it.

Military Etiquette

Keeping in mind that this is above the normal training and experience that most soldiers get?

Military Drill (as in marching not tactical practice)

Jr. ROTC or something? Yup along with the military etiquette.

Pilot: Aircraft: Single Engine... if we want to be specific

License and everything?
(again, and with the military skills, not common.)

WP Bolt Actions Rifle (should include lever action too)
WP Automatic and Semi Automatic Rifles (M16 NOT AR15)
WP Shotgun
WP Revolver

Weapon Proficiencies highlight one of the problems with the Palladium skill system.
You could spend a skill and learn to pilot an airplane.... or you could learn how to use and recognize the quality of revolvers.
Not automatics, not any other kind of gun... just revolvers. You get a pepperbox, or a derringer, and you're stumped.
The pilot skill takes a couple years at least, the second takes a month, tops.

In any case... I could use various firearms, but I couldn't disassemble them for proper cleaning, and I didn't know enough about various makes, models, and styles to recognize weapon quality.dang I hate the... broadness of those skills. So you could be a marksman with an M-16 but you wouldn't have WP semi and automatic rifle... kinda lame.

WP Heavy (only the M60)

Then it's not WP Heavy. again... lame... fine I have WP place weapon here not type but actual name then

WP what ever you'd call a Tech 9 Semi Automatic

SMG?
But then again, if you only ever used the Tech 9, you wouldn't qualify for the entire weapon proficiency.but is it really SMG because it is only semi auto.
Of all the weapons I've used the M16 and M60 are the easiest to take apart and clean. I've messed around with an stock AR15 and even those are harder than an M16 to dissasemble... damn screws instead of pins.

Pilot Automobile (they really need two skills automatic and manual )

They have that in the older books, I think.
Though if you can drive a manual, you can drive an automatic.
Not necessarily true, well at least not immediately, frequently I've seen manual drivers frequently trying to push in the clutch and take a little while at a light to figure out what is happening. It usually only takes a minute to figure out and a day to stop the old habits... goes both ways though, if you've driven an automatic and a manual but haven't driven a manual in a while chances are you may stall out a couple times.

Pilot Motor Boat

Most people won't have it, but a lot would.
Of the people who do, though, not a lot would also know how to fly a plane and such.

Land Navigation (Orienteering with map and compass not by stars... most certainly with landmarks)

Again, not a common skill.

Language and Literacy: English... but my Literacy skills are secondary I certainly have too many spelling and gramatic errors to be professional, plus I like to use elipsis way too much... but that would be classified as writing though wouldn't it.

Literacy is standard in our society, but not for Rifts Earth.

Carpentry

I'm skeptical on this one.
It generally takes 3-4 years of training to become an actual carpenter.
A lot of people in high school can nail boards together, but that's not the same as the actual skill.
Build a lot of houses and furniture, did you?Eh built A house and the cabinetry in it.

Identify Plants and Fruits

Perhaps.

Preserve Food
Wilderness Survival

You were smoking fish and game in high school?
Again, not usual.
smoke fish... no, I don't like fish. Beef Jerky, salt pork, can fruit yes

As for Wilderness Survival, keep in mind it's living in the wild without supplies indefinitely. Man vs. Wild stuff.
If you had that skill in high school, I guess you're just awesome.
It's not normal.
Guess not then, I've never had to use it, but I know it. Strange stuff like spruce has three different colored saps that have three different medicinal purposes and you can use the leaves of a yarrow plant as masquito repellant and how to collect water in the desert with cans and some plastic bags... even if it doesn't rain.

First Aid

We learned some of the basics in health class, but not enough to get a certificate or anything.Yup certified... speaking of my current just went out.

Climbing

I had that, but without the ropes and rappelling. I've got the rapelling... though I never have gone Aussie style, issues about watching the ground come up toward you.

In any case... All told, it looks like you had about 21 skills by the time you were 18, which is about right for a first level character.
Especially since 3 of them are granted automatically in this society.

Sounds like PB's WP's are actually WFs as in Weapon Fanatic. So what then would you give someone skilled in a single type of weapon? Should Ninja and Samurai get WP Sword? They've never handled every single sword and would be confused on what to do with some Euro ones especially like the Epee, probably get laughed at for using one.

[Zer0 Kay]

If I was serious and we were foolish enough to try to give characters as many skills as we have in real life... it would be rediculous. Don't you think?

No.
Hence my question.
I'm curious how many skills you think a person really would have by age 18 (in the world of Rifts especially).

Or do you opperate on the basis that the characters do have those skill but the listed ones are the only ones they'd seriously be able to do anything with?

I'd say that they don't have the skill unless it's something that they've put some serious time and effort into, along the lines of a college level course for a lot of skills, though some could get away with high school level training.

Back when I was in High School, I rolled up myself as a Rifts character, and the only OCC I could qualify for was Vagabond.
I'd taken high school biology, geology, German I, and other classes, but even giving myself a lot of benefit of doubt there weren't that many skills that I actually qualified for in my opinion.

Well lets see by 18 I had:
Math: Basic
Cooking (secondary skill)
Computer Operation
Computer Programing (secondary skill)
Computer Repair
Military Etiquette
Military Drill (as in marching not tactical practice)
Pilot: Aircraft: Single Engine... if we want to be specific
WP Bolt Actions Rifle (should include lever action too)
WP Automatic and Semi Automatic Rifles (M16 NOT AR15)
WP Shotgun
WP Revolver
WP Heavy (only the M60)
WP what ever you'd call a Tech 9 Semi Automatic
Pilot Automobile (they really need two skills automatic and manual )
Pilot Motor Boat
Land Navigation (Orienteering with map and compass not by stars... most certainly with landmarks)
Language and Literacy: English... but my Literacy skills are secondary I certainly have too many spelling and gramatic errors to be professional, plus I like to use elipsis way too much... but that would be classified as writing though wouldn't it.
Carpentry
Identify Plants and Fruits
Preserve Food
Wilderness Survival
First Aid
Climbing

That is before I ever got a job. Jobs following (no skills) were

Spoiler:

General Laborer at a green house 18
Courtesy Clerk (glorified bagger) at a grocery store 19-20
Sales Associate at a computer store 20-21
Tech. Writer later job same computer store 21-24
Sales Associate at a different computer store 25-27
Ground Radar Technician in the USAF 27-34
NCOIC of Ground Radar in the USAF 34-36
Unemployed... in my parents house 36-37
Game Tester at Microsoft 37
UNEMPLOYED... still in my parents house 37

Or before I received my college degreeS (again without skills because I don't want to cotemplate it)

Spoiler:

Associate of Applied Science in Computer and Networking Technology with a focus on Novell Netware 21
Bachelor of Science in Techinical Management with a concentration in Business Information Systems 31
Bachelor of Science in Ground Radar Technologies 31
Master of Science in Business Administration with a concentration in Information Security 35
NOW I'm working on a Bachelor of Arts in Ministoral Leadership 37
Later Youth Ministry Leadership cirtification 39
Much Later Master of Arts in Theology and Society 40
Much Much Later Doctor of Ministry ??

But my thing with the game system and life.
Player: I want to build a catapult
GM: Roll Engineering
Player: I don't have it
GM: Then you can't do it
Player: But I can
GM: But your character doesn't
Player: But you said our characters were based off of us
GM: Yup
Player: So I can do it?
GM: Nope
Player: But I can do it.
GM: Then you should have put engineering
Player: But I don't have engineering
GM: Yeah, so I guess you can't do it
Player: Fine I throw a rock at the wall
GM: All their archers fire at you... your dead.
Player: Awesome, I'm going to get some breakfast now and come back and kill you with a spork.
GM: Hey while your out, can you pick me up a Monster Low Carb... Do you have WP Spork?

You and I seem to have some things in common. Based on the game, though, what I look at is the skills being things that you spent extra time working on. If I actually sat with you and made you into a character, there would not be as many skills as you may think.

I repeat, you and I have many things in common.

Cool

[Killer Cyborg]

As for Wilderness Survival, keep in mind it's living in the wild without supplies indefinitely. Man vs. Wild stuff.
If you had that skill in high school, I guess you're just awesome.
It's not normal.
Guess not then, I've never had to use it, but I know it. Strange stuff like spruce has three different colored saps that have three different medicinal purposes and you can use the leaves of a yarrow plant as masquito repellant and how to collect water in the desert with cans and some plastic bags... even if it doesn't rain.

I think that they should re-arrange their skills into three categories (essentially minor, medium, and major), to deal with the degrees to which a person might be skilled in something.
Auto Mechanics < Basic Mechanics < Mechanical Engineer
HTH Basic < HTH Expert < HTH Martial Arts (or Assassin)
WP Tech 9 < WP SMG < WP Firearms
And so on.

Sounds like PB's WP's are actually WFs as in Weapon Fanatic. So what then would you give someone skilled in a single type of weapon? Should Ninja and Samurai get WP Sword? They've never handled every single sword and would be confused on what to do with some Euro ones especially like the Epee, probably get laughed at for using one.

Ninja and Samurai in N&S, iirc, get "WP Katana" or "WP Ninja-to."
That would make more sense than just giving them "WP Sword," anyway, but the Palladium skills system isn't designed with that level of granuality in mind, most of the time.

[Zer0 Kay]

As for Wilderness Survival, keep in mind it's living in the wild without supplies indefinitely. Man vs. Wild stuff.
If you had that skill in high school, I guess you're just awesome.
It's not normal.
Guess not then, I've never had to use it, but I know it. Strange stuff like spruce has three different colored saps that have three different medicinal purposes and you can use the leaves of a yarrow plant as masquito repellant and how to collect water in the desert with cans and some plastic bags... even if it doesn't rain.

I think that they should re-arrange their skills into three categories (essentially minor, medium, and major), to deal with the degrees to which a person might be skilled in something.
Auto Mechanics < Basic Mechanics < Mechanical Engineer
HTH Basic < HTH Expert < HTH Martial Arts (or Assassin)
WP Tech 9 < WP SMG < WP Firearms
And so on.

Sounds like PB's WP's are actually WFs as in Weapon Fanatic. So what then would you give someone skilled in a single type of weapon? Should Ninja and Samurai get WP Sword? They've never handled every single sword and would be confused on what to do with some Euro ones especially like the Epee, probably get laughed at for using one.

Ninja and Samurai in N&S, iirc, get "WP Katana" or "WP Ninja-to."
That would make more sense than just giving them "WP Sword," anyway, but the Palladium skills system isn't designed with that level of granuality in mind, most of the time.

agreed and those that should only have WP Colt 45 or WP 9mm get WP Revolver and WP Automatic Pistol. Cops and security guards don't get trained in every firearm of a given class. So I'd argue that I would get those WPs I said I had But it doesn't really matter now does it.

[desepchun]

Jiminy, and I thought we got testy down in S.O.

That being said CSBB, remember rule #1, don't like it change it. Easily and still one of my favorite things about Palladium, had never seen that in a RPG before them, of course I always just assumed that power as a DM/GM but it was awesome that they actually put it in print.

[Zer0 Kay]

Jiminy, and I thought we got testy down in S.O.

That being said CSBB, remember rule #1, don't like it change it. Easily and still one of my favorite things about Palladium, had never seen that in a RPG before them, of course I always just assumed that power as a DM/GM but it was awesome that they actually put it in print.

Meh... my favorite thing in print in a PB book was [paraphrasing from memory here] If you ever find yourself trying to cast spells throw the book out the window and seek professional help immediately. That was in the old BtS, I'm not sure about the new one.

[Svartalf]

a grunt should get as many skills as a vagabond because he is basically a vagabond that went to a three month boot camp

Actually, he's not... a vagabond is not a kid fresh out of high school (or just dropping out thereof), he's a guy who has quite a bit of experience and has developed into the lifestyle he's in.
a lvl 1 vagabond isn't wet between the ears the way a CS grunt is.

Because grunts really are the bottom of the barrel, the people with no talent that didn't get picked for the more skilled branches of the CS military, the great unwashed, the ditchdiggers, the hewers of wood and carriers of water.

They get minimal training in combat because well, they will see combat, and it would be stupid to lavish equipment on them if it's to be ruined and go unused because the guy just isn't trained at all, but their mission is providing targtets and massed fire. Beside that, they truly are unskilled labour, comparable to some of the very unskilled classes of New West like the bandit, saddle tramp or saloon bum... and actually, a CS grunt IS more skilled than those OCCs. I just checked.

[Svartalf]

Except if you have literacy, you're not getting to be a CS grunt.

Either you're a CS citizen in good standing and they know you're literate, which means you're getting watched extra close, but you won't be a grunt, you'll be directed to technical officer or some other occupation where that literacy is of actual use...

or you keep that literacy secret, and then, if you slip and get caught guilty of living while literate... well, they'll make sure you're very, very unhappy. Of course, if you get caught with subversive texts, you won't have time to regret.

[Svartalf]

There are mass graves full of people who said just that.

[Mack]

Except if you have literacy, you're not getting to be a CS grunt.

Either you're a CS citizen in good standing and they know you're literate, which means you're getting watched extra close, but you won't be a grunt, you'll be directed to technical officer or some other occupation where that literacy is of actual use...

or you keep that literacy secret, and then, if you slip and get caught guilty of living while literate... well, they'll make sure you're very, very unhappy. Of course, if you get caught with subversive texts, you won't have time to regret.

I'd like to know where you got this impression, because it's not in any book I own. In fact, in R:UE Grunts get a 5% bonus to Literacy when selected as an OCC Related skill. That's a far cry from what you imply.

[Svartalf]

I don't have RUE (at least yet)
But from the RMB CS grunt, and what I generally read about the CS, and it being a capital crime to educate the people, it is clear that the CS doesn't want its grunt level citizenry to have access to education, they don't need it anyway.

Is by chance the RUE grunt a more generic version rather than specifically the CS soldier?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I don't have RUE (at least yet)
But from the RMB CS grunt, and what I generally read about the CS, and it being a capital crime to educate the people, it is clear that the CS doesn't want its grunt level citizenry to have access to education, they don't need it anyway.

Is by chance the RUE grunt a more generic version rather than specifically the CS soldier?

there is a difference from the CS civilian population vs the CS military and CS Elite

[Dr. Doom III]

I don't have RUE (at least yet)
But from the RMB CS grunt, and what I generally read about the CS, and it being a capital crime to educate the people, it is clear that the CS doesn't want its grunt level citizenry to have access to education, they don't need it anyway.

Is by chance the RUE grunt a more generic version rather than specifically the CS soldier?

there is a difference from the CS civilian population vs the CS military and CS Elite

Not the Grunts.