Is "Beyond the Supernatural" the past of RIFTS Earth?

[Nightmask]

And from character perspective anything from a rift is from another dimension.
There is no way to get from another setting to Rifts but from a rift. (unless of course it's BTS and you live a real long time. Then you can just sit down and wait. )

Well there is that race of aliens that came to Earth the old-fashioned way across space, but that's so far as I know the only instance of anyone arriving on Rifts Earth without arriving by some kind of Rift. Meanwhile like you note we've a few who've lived from far before Rifts Earth was even BtS Earth all the way to present day Rifts Earth, taking the slow path and living through it all.

[csbioborg]

That was my point (( of the post where I actually opened the book people had been citing)), that it's internally self-contradictory. That in one section it clearly states "This means most humans and humanoid visitors from other dimensions are seen as D-bees. Mutants ,cyborgs and superhumans from Heroes Unlimited, characters from Aliens ulimited and Mechanoids Space, martial artists and Superspies from Ninja's and Superspies RPG, Soldiers and lawmen from RECON, psychics and aracnists from Beyond the supernatural,........"

and also states "Of course many of these characters, especially humans from Beyond the supernatrual, Heroes unlimited, Ninja's and Superspies, RECON, The mechanoids ( and robotech) might be able to convincingly pass as true humans born on rifts earth."


Which both clearly put them as from another dimension.

That's from character perspective. To the people from Rifts Earth anything from a rift is a D-bee regardless from where they come. That's all it says.

No no. Re read it. "This means most humans and humanoid vistors from __other dimensions___ are seen as d-bees." Then it goes on to list BtS in there. The "Are seen as d-bees' might bbe what you're referencing, the part I'm referencing is that they are human or humanoid visitors from other dimensions. Which is not a character perspective. They're in the list of other dimensions that may have human or human looking d-bees.

And from character perspective anything from a rift is from another dimension.
There is no way to get from another setting to Rifts but from a rift. (unless of course it's BTS and you live a real long time. Then you can just sit down and wait. )

well you could use the tech from TNMT as well

although I am waiting for some old school heros from the past where is Rommel to lead the charge against the Brodkil in some version of earth he must have disappeared through a rift

[Dr. Doom III]

And from character perspective anything from a rift is from another dimension.
There is no way to get from another setting to Rifts but from a rift. (unless of course it's BTS and you live a real long time. Then you can just sit down and wait. )

Well there is that race of aliens that came to Earth the old-fashioned way across space, but that's so far as I know the only instance of anyone arriving on Rifts Earth without arriving by some kind of Rift.

That's Rifts too not another setting.

[Dr. Doom III]

well you could use the tech from TNMT as well

although I am waiting for some old school heros from the past where is Rommel to lead the charge against the Brodkil in some version of earth he must have disappeared through a rift

Tech that opens a rift or is just plain dimensional teleportation which by definition is dimensional travel not time travel but since TMNT is another dimension from Rifts Earth it's not really relevant.

[Zer0 Kay]

if you don't have both, please don't speculate on how something is "cut and paste'
i have conversion book 1, first printing no less, and here is what it says.
pg 37, paragraph 1, column 1.
"The Earth of Beyond the Supernatural (BTS) can, and probably should, be considered Rifts earth a hundred or so years before the eruption of the ley lines and the coming of the rifts (I know, as the games designer, I tend to view it in this way). in that case, then BTS characters in the time of Rifts Earth must be people from Earth's past!"

would someone with the revised want to chime in?

That pretty much cinches it for me. Though my copy of the revised edition is on permanent loan to a friend who has a bad habit of not returning my stuff, I have zero doubt that the exact passage is in its pages. With the editorial approval Kev has over the material, that does indeed make it the most recent official ruling on issue. But the real proof of this IS NOT in the first part Glitterboy2098 quoted, but in the paragraph that follows that says...

"Design Note: How all the Palladium worlds may tie together is ultimately left to you, the players. Which RPG worlds, if any, that you choose to link to Rifts is your decision. But I'll tell ya now, with hints like the cities of Lazlo and New Lazlo, and the mention of the ancient pioneer of magic, Victor Lazlo, you can bet that there will continue to be ties to Beyond the Supernatural. Heck, don't be surprised if ol' Vic makes an appearance. I'm not saying it will happen. I'm just saying it could happen, as far as I'm concerned. Hee. Hee." (CB1re pg 37)

Given that CB1re came out in 2002, if the part of the quote I placed in bold has been edited to reflect Victor Lazlo's introduction to the Rifts in the Africa book in any way whatsoever, that would more than cement his editorial stamp of approval. We really need someone with that book to chime in.

Got off my butt and pulled out my Conversion book 1, Revised.

Page 34 starts the "Characters from other RPGS" it does not mention BtS

Page 35 starts "Who is a D-Bee": Last paragraph, First collum

"This means most humans and humanoid visitors from other dimensions are seen as D-bees. Mutants ,cyborgs and superhumans from Heroes Unlimited, characters from Aliens ulimited and Mechanoids Space, martial artists and Superspies from Ninja's and Superspies RPG, Soldiers and lawmen from RECON, psychics and aracnists from Beyond the supernatural, the mystical nightbane from the Night bane RPG, human looking mutans from After the bomb RPG, or Humans from the past, present or alternate earths are all considered D-bees , other 'Dimensional beings".

You'll note that in the some what long run on sentence. BtS is lumped in right there with Aliens unlimited, Mechanoids, Recon, Ninja's and superspies, After the bomb, heroes unlimited. ect.

The next paragraph is also quite telling.

Page 35, first full paragraph.

"Of course many of these characters, especially humans from Beyond the supernatrual, Heroes unlimited, Ninja's and Superspies, RECON, The mechanoids ( and robotech) might be able to convincingly pass as true humans born on rifts earth."

(( their emphasis, not mine))

So again. BtS is lumped right in with Heroes Unlimited, Ninja's and Superspies, Recon. Ect, as being from other dimensions.

Page 37 in Conversion book one, Revised, has nothing about BtS. It has a picture of a Cyclopse, fighting an Ultra max. And a write up on Armor Rating.

I kept reading and found the BtS stuff on page 59... and what you have at the top is in there... but there was careful editing. For one, it leaves out the other notations in the same book (( shown above)) That state it's another dimenion.

And in addition to your quote it goes on to say

".... THe Alternative is that the earth of BtS is a similar but alternate dimension"

So while there is cut and pasting done from the first Conversion book. There's also additions that state more than once, BtS is another dimension.

And yes, while the quote you have above is there. The next paragraph also states that the "BTS is a similar but alternate dimension" Theory.

So if anything opening the actual book and looking it up (( Which sort of surprised me that none actually did, considering people were supposedly quoting from it with page numbers, that are wrong when you actually open the book)) It confirms both sides of the argument. On page 35 it confirms my side. Page 59 is a partial cut and paste from the first World book, (( That was shown above and would seem to confirm the other side)) but then it goes on to point out my side again as well.

It's not what you'd call conclusive as it clearly states both sides of the debate.

You invalidate your own argument with D-Bees and BtS being "lumped in" with the other books. Note the highlights D-Bees include different time as well as parallel dimension so it still leaves it open that any of the books mentioned above could be a different time not a parallel dimension or it could be a parallel dimension not a different time. But it doesn't specifically assign future, past OR parallel dimension. It is open to interpretation.

Where does it CLEARLY state BtS IS an alternate dimension? I only see it saying BtS COULD (as in it is possible but not definate) be an alternate dimension.

[Rallan]

Since Chaos Earth was originally intended to be an alternate world where the Great Cataclysm was not quite as severe as in Rifts, that would explain the continuity gap in that game.

Chaos Earth was going to have continuity problems even if they'd planned on making it part of the history of Rifts Earth from day 1. You just can't drop a prequel RPG into the Rifts setting after more than a decade of Rifts books that were written as if CE had never existed (because obviously it didn't until someone gave Siembieda a pitch for a post-apocalyptic game and he decided it could be retooled as part of the Rifts timeline) and expect CE to make much sense.

[Pepsi Jedi]

if you don't have both, please don't speculate on how something is "cut and paste'
i have conversion book 1, first printing no less, and here is what it says.
pg 37, paragraph 1, column 1.
"The Earth of Beyond the Supernatural (BTS) can, and probably should, be considered Rifts earth a hundred or so years before the eruption of the ley lines and the coming of the rifts (I know, as the games designer, I tend to view it in this way). in that case, then BTS characters in the time of Rifts Earth must be people from Earth's past!"

would someone with the revised want to chime in?

That pretty much cinches it for me. Though my copy of the revised edition is on permanent loan to a friend who has a bad habit of not returning my stuff, I have zero doubt that the exact passage is in its pages. With the editorial approval Kev has over the material, that does indeed make it the most recent official ruling on issue. But the real proof of this IS NOT in the first part Glitterboy2098 quoted, but in the paragraph that follows that says...

"Design Note: How all the Palladium worlds may tie together is ultimately left to you, the players. Which RPG worlds, if any, that you choose to link to Rifts is your decision. But I'll tell ya now, with hints like the cities of Lazlo and New Lazlo, and the mention of the ancient pioneer of magic, Victor Lazlo, you can bet that there will continue to be ties to Beyond the Supernatural. Heck, don't be surprised if ol' Vic makes an appearance. I'm not saying it will happen. I'm just saying it could happen, as far as I'm concerned. Hee. Hee." (CB1re pg 37)

Given that CB1re came out in 2002, if the part of the quote I placed in bold has been edited to reflect Victor Lazlo's introduction to the Rifts in the Africa book in any way whatsoever, that would more than cement his editorial stamp of approval. We really need someone with that book to chime in.

Got off my butt and pulled out my Conversion book 1, Revised.

Page 34 starts the "Characters from other RPGS" it does not mention BtS

Page 35 starts "Who is a D-Bee": Last paragraph, First collum

"This means most humans and humanoid visitors from other dimensions are seen as D-bees. Mutants ,cyborgs and superhumans from Heroes Unlimited, characters from Aliens ulimited and Mechanoids Space, martial artists and Superspies from Ninja's and Superspies RPG, Soldiers and lawmen from RECON, psychics and aracnists from Beyond the supernatural, the mystical nightbane from the Night bane RPG, human looking mutans from After the bomb RPG, or Humans from the past, present or alternate earths are all considered D-bees , other 'Dimensional beings".

You'll note that in the some what long run on sentence. BtS is lumped in right there with Aliens unlimited, Mechanoids, Recon, Ninja's and superspies, After the bomb, heroes unlimited. ect.

The next paragraph is also quite telling.

Page 35, first full paragraph.

"Of course many of these characters, especially humans from Beyond the supernatrual, Heroes unlimited, Ninja's and Superspies, RECON, The mechanoids ( and robotech) might be able to convincingly pass as true humans born on rifts earth."

(( their emphasis, not mine))

So again. BtS is lumped right in with Heroes Unlimited, Ninja's and Superspies, Recon. Ect, as being from other dimensions.

Page 37 in Conversion book one, Revised, has nothing about BtS. It has a picture of a Cyclopse, fighting an Ultra max. And a write up on Armor Rating.

I kept reading and found the BtS stuff on page 59... and what you have at the top is in there... but there was careful editing. For one, it leaves out the other notations in the same book (( shown above)) That state it's another dimenion.

And in addition to your quote it goes on to say

".... THe Alternative is that the earth of BtS is a similar but alternate dimension"

So while there is cut and pasting done from the first Conversion book. There's also additions that state more than once, BtS is another dimension.

And yes, while the quote you have above is there. The next paragraph also states that the "BTS is a similar but alternate dimension" Theory.

So if anything opening the actual book and looking it up (( Which sort of surprised me that none actually did, considering people were supposedly quoting from it with page numbers, that are wrong when you actually open the book)) It confirms both sides of the argument. On page 35 it confirms my side. Page 59 is a partial cut and paste from the first World book, (( That was shown above and would seem to confirm the other side)) but then it goes on to point out my side again as well.

It's not what you'd call conclusive as it clearly states both sides of the debate.

You invalidate your own argument with D-Bees and BtS being "lumped in" with the other books. Note the highlights D-Bees include different time as well as parallel dimension so it still leaves it open that any of the books mentioned above could be a different time not a parallel dimension or it could be a parallel dimension not a different time. But it doesn't specifically assign future, past OR parallel dimension. It is open to interpretation.

Where does it CLEARLY state BtS IS an alternate dimension? I only see it saying BtS COULD (as in it is possible but not definate) be an alternate dimension.

That's not how the sentence is written. It's written as a list of people from other dimensions, then says "OR" People from other times. By your logic Recon and Nightbane and Ninja's and superspies are all Rift's past. You're cherry picking BtS out of a list of like 10. what about all the others around it?

[Rallan]

Indeed, in some ways BtS is easier to reconcile with Rifts than Chaos Earth is. A lot of the elements in BtS are visible predecessors of the later (greatly souped-up) Rifts equivalents. This is easy to fit into a pre-MDC past, since Mega-Damage materials and weapons don't appear until 2021. Likewise, ley lines, supernatural beings, magic and psychic powers are common elements between the two.

Yeah BTS and most of the other modern-day games are a piece of cake to fit into the Rifts backstory (at least as long as you don't try putting them all in at once ). There's a century or so of entirely undefined sci-fi progress that can be used to handwave away the problem of "how did we get from HU/BTS/TMNT/N&SS to the Golden Age?", then an apocalyptic crash and three centuries of barbarism and scavenging to explain why the events of the modern-day RPG setting never had a real impact on the Rifts setting and story.

The only exceptions of course are Nightbane (where we can safely assume the 21st century will follow a very different course) and Robotech (which is coming closer every day to being a game set in "the present" ).

[glitterboy2098]

Odd though that NEMA does not appear to have any Juicers or Crazies. The U.S. military was supposedly one of the main customers for those technologies.

NEMA isn't the military though, it's sorta a cross between the real world FEMA and Blackwater, but with more guns.

[Armorlord]

Odd though that NEMA does not appear to have any Juicers or Crazies. The U.S. military was supposedly one of the main customers for those technologies.

NEMA isn't the military though, it's sorta a cross between the real world FEMA and Blackwater, but with more guns.

Eh? Seemed to be that the Northern Eagle Military Alliance was a jacked-up super-NATO of North American countries, given police powers, intelligence resources, military rank, and the ability to freely cross borders, along with top of the line and experimental military hardware.

Jeeze, re-reading the Chaos Earth bits about NEMA really makes me wonder about how dystopian the cold war era was between the Golden Age and the Coming of the Rifts.
And makes me pine for the original Chaos Earth that looks to never be seen beyond the GMG blurb.

[glitterboy2098]

your confusing NEMA (a paramilitary agency), with the NAA, or North American Alliance. the NAA is the nations of the US, Canada, and mexico all joined together into one economic and social entity. basically the borders between them are opened up, they merge economies, and form NEMA as an agency not tied to any of the three nation's specific governments. as i said before, NEMA sorta rolls into one entity the functions of FEMA, the CIA, and the FBI, with it's own private army.

it's on chaos Earth, pg9.

[Nightmask]

From what I can remember of the material regarding Juicer and Crazy augmentation in Rifts it was a mothballed/banned set of technologies once it was clear that the side-effects were unacceptable so it's not surprising that NEMA doesn't have any of those classes. The technologies were rediscovered or reactivated as a result of the Cataclysm and by that point in such a chaotic environment it was impossible to bottle them back up (Rifts Japan mentions taking the technologies out of mothballs only to quickly realize it was a mistake but too late to be able to lock it back up again).

[Armorlord]

The rationale that I have always assumed to be the case was that NEMA was intended to defend the North American continent, while the other services (such as the U.S. Navy) were assumed to operate elsewhere in the world. The cold war that marked the last years before the Great Cataclysm always looked like it must have been grim based on past Rifts books. Just look at at how many military installations were dug in deep underground. The Aberdeen Proving Ground (ARCHIE-3), the Lone Star complex, whatever hidden base Free Quebec found their Glitter Boys factory in, the Canadian Fort Smith base, the Mindwerks complex in Poland...the list goes on and on. Presumably if everybody, corporate and government, was building underground MDC bunkers, then there was serious expectation of war.

Now, it could just be that NEMA, being a homeland security faction, did not favor the use of Juicer or Crazy augmentation. Neither interacts well with the general public after all. But it all leaves me wondering just how much Gen. Sawyer's security clearance allowed her to know, because it doesn't seem like a lot.

But all of this requires retconning of course. NEMA does not appear to have had any of these underground bases, nor did it seem to even get mentioned that they should try to at least recon Aberdeen and Lone Star (which is a pity, the dark ages might never have happened if they had).

CE: Rise of Magic expands Gen. Sawyer's relocation to the mostly intact city of Chicago, as well as her desire to evacuate the city after watching St. Louis get leveled when the Devil's Gate opened. As we know from Rifts, Chicago has several ley line nexuses. This is why Chi-Town is 80 miles away. Thus I assume we are seeing the first steps towards the Coalition States once Sawyer can get the people out of Chicago. The U.S. Navy, operating in the pacific, would be too far away and blocked by the Rocky Mountains to check in with NEMA. Radio and laser communication would be impossible without access to the satellites or space stations.

It fits somewhat, but still has a lot of holes that need filling.

Well, the the case of Aberdeen, it already had a General and an army on site. it occurs to me just now that whole army group and it's supplies had been in underground super-bunkers as well (to have survived the super-tsunamis). Man, that was a cold war with heights of paranoia I haven't seen outside of player-characters that have been tricked too many times.
The Lone Star Complex is an interesting mystery though. Completely secret facility, set-up largely to do the kinds of research folk would feel uneasy about if they knew it existed. Plus, at it's deepest and most secret of levels, dimensional research. No surface features to give it away, stumbled across by chance.. and no sign of life at all having disturbed the place since the Coming of the Rifts, like everyone there just up and vanished when the experiments downstairs coincided with the beginning of it all.

[Looonatic]

I always imagined that the Cataclysm smashed several alternate Earths together to create RIFTS Earth; much like a kid playing with Play-Doh. Or a lame DC Universe crossover event.

[Armorlord]

I always imagined that the Cataclysm smashed several alternate Earths together to create RIFTS Earth; much like a kid playing with Play-Doh. Or a lame DC Universe crossover event.

That is more or less the view of it I've had as well, and I'm ok with that.

[Kagashi]

My .02 credits:

1) You dont have to be correct to not be lying. You can be mistaken. lying have everything to do with intent on not telling the truth regardless of the actual subject spoken about, whether or not it is actually correct. The dragon was mistaken (obviously a retcon...but now he was mistaken).
2) Rifters for the most part are unofficial and optional...when concerning source material (except when the article stated they are not...like the extra Splicers info, or Geofront info that was cut from the released books). Rifters are ALSO a vehicle for the writers to pass information. In this particular case, Kevin discusses the topic directly and that's that. The topic is canon that both dimensions are similar, but separate.
3) Personally, I like to think of BtS as the prequel to Chaos Earth, so to me, the above doesnt really matter in my games. Its not that hard to incorporate BtS as the history of Rifts regardless of what KS officially stated. Anyway, in Rifts, history is generally unknown to the average character. It is usually not a player in the big picture.

[Nightmask]

My .02 credits:

1) You dont have to be correct to not be lying. You can be mistaken. lying have everything to do with intent on not telling the truth regardless of the actual subject spoken about, whether or not it is actually correct. The dragon was mistaken (obviously a retcon...but now he was mistaken).
2) Rifters for the most part are unofficial and optional...when concerning source material (except when the article stated they are not...like the extra Splicers info, or Geofront info that was cut from the released books). Rifters are ALSO a vehicle for the writers to pass information. In this particular case, Kevin discusses the topic directly and that's that. The topic is canon that both dimensions are similar, but separate.
3) Personally, I like to think of BtS as the prequel to Chaos Earth, so to me, the above doesnt really matter in my games. Its not that hard to incorporate BtS as the history of Rifts regardless of what KS officially stated. Anyway, in Rifts, history is generally unknown to the average character. It is usually not a player in the big picture.

The Rifter would be canon if new material didn't retcon it away, which it does. Nothing in the material in the books would ever lead anyone to conclude that what's in the Rifter article is true, or even consider the possibility. The article can't be the final say on things because things change, and all subsequent material only leads to the conclusion that BtS Earth is Rifts Earth's pre-history. You cannot reach any other conclusion from the existing material.

[Kagashi]

My .02 credits:

1) You dont have to be correct to not be lying. You can be mistaken. lying have everything to do with intent on not telling the truth regardless of the actual subject spoken about, whether or not it is actually correct. The dragon was mistaken (obviously a retcon...but now he was mistaken).
2) Rifters for the most part are unofficial and optional...when concerning source material (except when the article stated they are not...like the extra Splicers info, or Geofront info that was cut from the released books). Rifters are ALSO a vehicle for the writers to pass information. In this particular case, Kevin discusses the topic directly and that's that. The topic is canon that both dimensions are similar, but separate.
3) Personally, I like to think of BtS as the prequel to Chaos Earth, so to me, the above doesnt really matter in my games. Its not that hard to incorporate BtS as the history of Rifts regardless of what KS officially stated. Anyway, in Rifts, history is generally unknown to the average character. It is usually not a player in the big picture.

The Rifter would be canon if new material didn't retcon it away, which it does. Nothing in the material in the books would ever lead anyone to conclude that what's in the Rifter article is true, or even consider the possibility. The article can't be the final say on things because things change, and all subsequent material only leads to the conclusion that BtS Earth is Rifts Earth's pre-history. You cannot reach any other conclusion from the existing material.

I do not agree. These are the words from the author of both games himself. This is no different than an official errata posted online or a FAQ clarification (say the Q and A portion posted in BoM). Just because it is in a Rifter doesn't make it less credible. IMHO, it makes it more credible than KS answering a question on Facebook or these boards, because its in print.

Of course it is mentioned in Rifts Africa that BtS is Rifts Earth's past, but it doesnt say anywhere that it is aside an "in game" role playing account of one NPC (Tarn...which we have seen in the past as being wrong in the past, even by her own admittance.) about two NPCs talking about the subject, which is different than the author of the book saying, "it is this way." (for example, the history of the Glitter Boy...that is author's narrative...not an NPC role playing account.) All we really know is, two people talked about what they thought were the same planet. That does not make it true, or canon. Only thing that is canon is that the conversation happened. What was said in the conversation was done by a character and could be wrong. The Lo Fung in Rifts Africa is from Rifts and knew a man who was named Victor Lazlo in the 6000 years he lived on the planet. Likewise, the Victor Lazlo in Rifts Africa is quite obviously the same man from BtS, but when he ran into Lo Fung on Rifts Earth, both misidentified each other as the people they both knew from their respective dimensions.

Rifter 2/Skraypers is the author's words and specifically tells us they are separate, but strikingly similar dimensions. It cant be any clearer.

If material that retcons isn't canon material, the Boom Gun's Mach 4 slugs are not canon, they are only Mach 1. RUE updated the slugs from 1 to 4. Does that mean RUE is not canon? Oh, and crazies dont have autododge. Thats not canon either because RMB never gave them autododge. And Fire Dragons still exist in Rifts. Those Cat's Eye dragons are just fan fiction. Mini Missiles and Short Ranged missiles deal the same damage too. The updated RUE charts are just nice to have. One good thing about this Revelation is that Cyber Knights dont have Zen Combat anymore! Its not canon!

[glitterboy2098]

Of course it is mentioned in Rifts Africa that BtS is Rifts Earth's past, but it doesnt say anywhere that it is aside an "in game" role playing account of one NPC (Tarn...which we have seen in the past as being wrong in the past, even by her own admittance.) about two NPCs talking about the subject, which is different than the author of the book saying, "it is this way." !

actually, the connection between BTS and Rifts is made later on in the book, in the 3rd person omniscent "word of god" by the author. erin tarn merely writes down some details of their meeting in here narrative at the start.

i posted the page details somewhat earlier.

KS effectively did say "it is this way" by doing so.

If material that retcons isn't canon material, the Boom Gun's Mach 4 slugs are not canon, they are only Mach 1. RUE updated the slugs from 1 to 4. Does that mean RUE is not canon? Oh, and crazies dont have autododge. Thats not canon either because RMB never gave them autododge. And Fire Dragons still exist in Rifts. Those Cat's Eye dragons are just fan fiction.

the issue isn't retcons, per say. materials since rifter 2 have retconed the retcon back to the WB4 scenario. Triax 2 reestablished Vic lazlo as being from the past of rifts earth, and Conversion book 1 revised reestablished BTS as the past of rifts earth by it's BTS intro section having been updated and the statement that it's considered the past of rifts earth left intact.

the issue is people insisting that the rifter 2 material, which was retconed away by KS in later books, overrules the newer material.

and to nitpick, the boomgun's slug speed was updated in free quebec, which was then cut and pasted into Chaos earth, and then that entry was given a new fluff section for RUE. and the new dragons did not replace the old dragons, they're just new ones in addition to the old ones.

[Pepsi Jedi]

My .02 credits:

1) You dont have to be correct to not be lying. You can be mistaken. lying have everything to do with intent on not telling the truth regardless of the actual subject spoken about, whether or not it is actually correct. The dragon was mistaken (obviously a retcon...but now he was mistaken).
2) Rifters for the most part are unofficial and optional...when concerning source material (except when the article stated they are not...like the extra Splicers info, or Geofront info that was cut from the released books). Rifters are ALSO a vehicle for the writers to pass information. In this particular case, Kevin discusses the topic directly and that's that. The topic is canon that both dimensions are similar, but separate.
3) Personally, I like to think of BtS as the prequel to Chaos Earth, so to me, the above doesnt really matter in my games. Its not that hard to incorporate BtS as the history of Rifts regardless of what KS officially stated. Anyway, in Rifts, history is generally unknown to the average character. It is usually not a player in the big picture.

The Rifter would be canon if new material didn't retcon it away, which it does. Nothing in the material in the books would ever lead anyone to conclude that what's in the Rifter article is true, or even consider the possibility. The article can't be the final say on things because things change, and all subsequent material only leads to the conclusion that BtS Earth is Rifts Earth's pre-history. You cannot reach any other conclusion from the existing material.

Material you can't seem to find, because inspite of repeated query's as to where it is, you've yet to produce it? That material?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Of course it is mentioned in Rifts Africa that BtS is Rifts Earth's past, but it doesnt say anywhere that it is aside an "in game" role playing account of one NPC (Tarn...which we have seen in the past as being wrong in the past, even by her own admittance.) about two NPCs talking about the subject, which is different than the author of the book saying, "it is this way." !

actually, the connection between BTS and Rifts is made later on in the book, in the 3rd person omniscent "word of god" by the author. erin tarn merely writes down some details of their meeting in here narrative at the start.

i posted the page details somewhat earlier.

KS effectively did say "it is this way" by doing so.

If material that retcons isn't canon material, the Boom Gun's Mach 4 slugs are not canon, they are only Mach 1. RUE updated the slugs from 1 to 4. Does that mean RUE is not canon? Oh, and crazies dont have autododge. Thats not canon either because RMB never gave them autododge. And Fire Dragons still exist in Rifts. Those Cat's Eye dragons are just fan fiction.

the issue isn't retcons, per say. materials since rifter 2 have retconed the retcon back to the WB4 scenario. Triax 2 reestablished Vic lazlo as being from the past of rifts earth, and Conversion book 1 revised reestablished BTS as the past of rifts earth by it's BTS intro section having been updated and the statement that it's considered the past of rifts earth left intact.

the issue is people insisting that the rifter 2 material, which was retconed away by KS in later books, overrules the newer material.

and to nitpick, the boomgun's slug speed was updated in free quebec, which was then cut and pasted into Chaos earth, and then that entry was given a new fluff section for RUE. and the new dragons did not replace the old dragons, they're just new ones in addition to the old ones.

Again you're misrepresenting. Traix two does not say anything of the sort. ALL Traix two says, is that Victor was a parapsychologist from the past. It does not say that he was from BtS past.

And again, Conversion book 1 is 90% cut and paste and the part there you're quoting was just lifted directly. Not re-written to confirm.

[Nightmask]

Material you can't seem to find, because inspite of repeated query's as to where it is, you've yet to produce it? That material?

Material already posted repeatedly by Glitterboy2098 that you pretend doesn't exist, my reposting it won't have you acknowledge it exists anymore than you acknowledge it exists when he posts it. Seriously, just give it a rest rushing to post nothing but 'No it doesn't exist because you didn't post it!' when it has in fact been posted just in hopes that someone might actually think your meritless protest has some value when it doesn't.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Material you can't seem to find, because inspite of repeated query's as to where it is, you've yet to produce it? That material?

Material already posted repeatedly by Glitterboy2098 that you pretend doesn't exist, my reposting it won't have you acknowledge it exists anymore than you acknowledge it exists when he posts it. Seriously, just give it a rest rushing to post nothing but 'No it doesn't exist because you didn't post it!' when it has in fact been posted just in hopes that someone might actually think your meritless protest has some value when it doesn't.

The "Two" Things posted by him have been refuted. While you keep going "oh.. that stuff other people said. I don't have to repost it"

Is just a dodge, because you can't and there is none. Much less the amounts you try and insist exist. Even though you've not once been able to produce your proof.

Sorry, but "Other people have said. I don't have to" is not proof of fact.

[glitterboy2098]

conversion book 1 revised did edit the BTS section to update it to the newer material. this was done by kevin himself. since he did edit the intro bit to BTS to bring it in line with the updated timeframe, he actually looked at that material while doing so. the fact that he did not change the bit about considering BTS to be the past of RIFTS earth.

he had the chance to change it, and he did not. every other time he has had a chance to change something from earlier that he no longer agreed with anymore (glitterboy slug velocity, glitterboy ammo amount, the MDC on many early units in rifts that was weak even for the time it was written, etc..) he had done so.

the fact that he had that chance, and left it as is indicates that he still considers that information to be canon.

as for triax 2, rifter 2 says vic is from another universe and not from rifts past. triax 2 says the opposite, that he is from Rifts past. that makes the rifter 2 detail no longer valid.

add in that megaverse builder establishes Heroes unlimited (the other rifter 2 element) as a completely different universe, with a completely seperate flow of time (to the point where 20th century HU exists at the same point as 25th century earth aka rifts), and a dimensional fabric (the "wall" between universes in the megaverse) being strong enough to make dimensional travel difficult.

which means the "merging" described in rifter 2 is unlikely, since that would imply time flowing at the same rate and a weaker dimensional fabric.

[glitterboy2098]

except no one has actually refuted them. so far, it's just been you and a few others saying "but that doesn't apply", but offering no actual material to back up your claim of refution.

i have shown my sources, which show that kevin still considered BTS the past of rifts. i have shown evidence that rifter 2 has been retconed away, and no longer applies.

[Nightmask]

except no one has actually refuted them. so far, it's just been you and a few others saying "but that doesn't apply", but offering no actual material to back up your claim of refution.

i have shown my sources, which show that kevin still considered BTS the past of rifts. i have shown evidence that rifter 2 has been retconed away, and no longer applies.

And it's going to get the same 'I never saw that!' response it's gotten every other time, along with 'no it says what I want to hear it saying instead of what it really is saying!' rather than an actual response with something that's actually able to provide support for the other contention. It's like insisting that because an old article said all dragons had only 400 MDC that all newer articles showing dragons with 800 MDC don't and can't exist because the old article said they're only 400 MDC and nothing can change.

[Kagashi]

Of course it is mentioned in Rifts Africa that BtS is Rifts Earth's past, but it doesnt say anywhere that it is aside an "in game" role playing account of one NPC (Tarn...which we have seen in the past as being wrong in the past, even by her own admittance.) about two NPCs talking about the subject, which is different than the author of the book saying, "it is this way." !

actually, the connection between BTS and Rifts is made later on in the book, in the 3rd person omniscent "word of god" by the author. erin tarn merely writes down some details of their meeting in here narrative at the start.

i posted the page details somewhat earlier.

KS effectively did say "it is this way" by doing so.

If you are referring to the passage, "Evidence seemed to indicate that he had been flung into a nightmarish, future Earth. Germany to be exact, some three or four hundred years in the future." (italic emphasis mine), it does not say, it is. As much as Kevin, you, (and myself, actually) want BtS to be the prequel to Rifts and Chaos Earth, it officially isn't as per Rifter 2. Kevin specifically ended the fan wonder of if it was or not, yet this thread continues to press into almost 5 pages.

If material that retcons isn't canon material, the Boom Gun's Mach 4 slugs are not canon, they are only Mach 1. RUE updated the slugs from 1 to 4. Does that mean RUE is not canon? Oh, and crazies dont have autododge. Thats not canon either because RMB never gave them autododge. And Fire Dragons still exist in Rifts. Those Cat's Eye dragons are just fan fiction.

the issue isn't retcons, per say. materials since rifter 2 have retconed the retcon back to the WB4 scenario. Triax 2 reestablished Vic lazlo as being from the past of rifts earth, and Conversion book 1 revised reestablished BTS as the past of rifts earth by it's BTS intro section having been updated and the statement that it's considered the past of rifts earth left intact.

the issue is people insisting that the rifter 2 material, which was retconed away by KS in later books, overrules the newer material.

Ah...I see what Nightmask was saying! I misread his post. You cleared the point of view for me.

However, I respectfully disagree with a portion of the above. The material in Triax 2 still does not contradict the Rifter 2/Scrypers article. It simply states that he is from the past, doesnt say which one. It never says he is from Rifts Earth past, just that he had 20th century experience. A Robotech character would have a similar 20th century experience as well (as far as we know, 1987 Robotech Earth was identical to BtS Earth until perhaps the Robotech Global Civil War). So would a HU2 20th century character. That doesnt make them from Rifts Earth. Obviously the Victor Lazlo that disappeared on the Indian mound in 1987 on Rifts Earth had a VERY similar life as the Victor Lazlo who lives in Rifts Germany in 110 PA and is described in Rifts WB 31 Triax 2. But they are two separate people according to Kevin.

The wording in CB1:R also does not say BtS is the prequel to Rifts Earth. It says "probably should be". That does not say "is". This is just Kevin's expression that this is how he plays it and if you choose to do so as well, then it is Rifts Earth's past, if not, than it isnt. This is just another example of Kevin leaving thing ambiguous so you can do what you want to do. Just like when the Xicitcix War started/ended, how the 4 horsemen were defeated, and what happened to the Valenx aliens.

Personally, I do not like this writing technique because then you get 5 pages of fans going back and fourth about what it really means. Then when Kevin states specifically what it is or isnt, people discount it. If you (Palladium) is going to commit to something...follow through and dont end mid swing! Like Siege of Tolkeen, that had a very established timeline which had black and white statement (no matter if folks agreed if thats how it should have gone down or not). But then you get a whole new type of griping when you do that. I guess Palladium loses for trying no matter what.

[glitterboy2098]

except no one has actually refuted them. so far, it's just been you and a few others saying "but that doesn't apply", but offering no actual material to back up your claim of refution.

i have shown my sources, which show that kevin still considered BTS the past of rifts. i have shown evidence that rifter 2 has been retconed away, and no longer applies.

And it's going to get the same 'I never saw that!' response it's gotten every other time, along with 'no it says what I want to hear it saying instead of what it really is saying!' rather than an actual response with something that's actually able to provide support for the other contention. It's like insisting that because an old article said all dragons had only 400 MDC that all newer articles showing dragons with 800 MDC don't and can't exist because the old article said they're only 400 MDC and nothing can change.

yep. we're quickly reaching Ad Nauseam here.

[Kagashi]

Isn't it really academic at this point? If the Victor Lazlo present in Rifts really is from a different timeline, it is one that is nearly identical to the Rifts timeline - right up to the point that Victor himself vanished and then well afterward!

It is explicitly stated that Victor's books survived into present-day Rifts time, that they inspired Erin Tarn and the people of Lazlo (who did not name their city after him just because they were too dumb to come up with another name). It has also been stated that Mindwerks had dealings with the Lazlo Agency during the Golden Age (well after Victor's time).

Given that Victor is known for being a parapsychologist who correctly identified many of the phenomena seen on Rifts Earth all the way back in the 20th Century and the fact that he did all this is established Rifts Earth history makes the whole thing rather moot. If there were two timelines, and two Victor Lazlo's, both they and the worlds they lived in were almost exactly the same!

Which means that BtS is valid history for Rifts, because even if the actual game is assumed to be in a different timeline, it has almost exactly the same history as Rifts Earth.

Pretty much. No matter what stance you take, this stands true for both.

[Pepsi Jedi]

conversion book 1 revised did edit the BTS section to update it to the newer material. this was done by kevin himself. since he did edit the intro bit to BTS to bring it in line with the updated timeframe, he actually looked at that material while doing so. the fact that he did not change the bit about considering BTS to be the past of RIFTS earth.

You've no proof of that though. It's a direct cut and past, like 90% of the book. The 'new' material, is what I'd posted a while back where he lumps BTS in with 10 other games as being other dimensions. The part you're quoting is the same -exact- words and such as the book from before. Its not re-written. It's lifted in a click, drag, cut, and paste.

he had the chance to change it, and he did not. every other time he has had a chance to change something from earlier that he no longer agreed with anymore (glitterboy slug velocity, glitterboy ammo amount, the MDC on many early units in rifts that was weak even for the time it was written, etc..) he had done so.

Not true. In the past we've seen cut and pastes from different game lines, lifted and plopped down in different books, complete with the same mistakes. It takes a second to cut and paste a collum. he's not re-reading it all and signing off on it line item like you seem to think. 90% of Conversion book 1 Revised is just cut and pasted. Is it reprinted? yeah, but that's like saying that reprints of older books are some how "again" refutingthings that appeared in later books, because they're reprints. It wasn't 'Re-written" it was cut and pasted.

had it been re-written (( like much of Source book 1 Revised, or Vamp Kingdoms Revised)) that's one thing. This is not. It's a page of "Cut and paste'.

the fact that he had that chance, and left it as is indicates that he still considers that information to be canon.

*Shakes head* It indicates he's lazy and cut and pasted it. It COULD indicate "Hey I've written a three page reply on this topic. I'm not going to spend an hour rewriting this after I've already answered it.

As an aside.. how do you explain the three page answer in the rifter? A bad dream? you're acting like he never sat down, typed out an answer, and published a -direct answer- to this question. he did.

One line in a later book doesn't change that. How do you explain the rifter 2?

as for triax 2, rifter 2 says vic is from another universe and not from rifts past. triax 2 says the opposite, that he is from Rifts past. that makes the rifter 2 detail no longer valid.

NO it DOESN"T.

Look I've explained this a number of times. There's MORE THAN ONE Victor. Like there's more than one G.W. Bush, and more than one Abe Lincon, in the three universes past. There's more than one America. More than one Russia. Ect ect ect. You don't seem to understand, the fact that there's a dude that was a parapsychologist in the past, doesn't make it BtS past.

Kevin --directly addressed this---.

add in that megaverse builder establishes Heroes unlimited (the other rifter 2 element) as a completely different universe, with a completely seperate flow of time (to the point where 20th century HU exists at the same point as 25th century earth aka rifts), and a dimensional fabric (the "wall" between universes in the megaverse) being strong enough to make dimensional travel difficult.

which means the "merging" described in rifter 2 is unlikely, since that would imply time flowing at the same rate and a weaker dimensional fabric.

So Kevin wrote the thing in the rifter 2.... what... To lie? Your position is... as an official answer.. he lied.. but a cut and paste from before the -Official answer- makes the 3 page official answer a great deception?

*Shakes head* It's stupid. Why write the three page official answer if it's not what... he actually wanted? It's not like someone stood there with a g un and made him. That's actual -effort- to go to, to take time. Sit down, Write the answer, then make sure it's published.

Alot more effort than a cut and past he might not have read closely. Or one line in traix two, that has been repeatedly explained not to contradict the previous answer in any way.

[glitterboy2098]

Of course it is mentioned in Rifts Africa that BtS is Rifts Earth's past, but it doesnt say anywhere that it is aside an "in game" role playing account of one NPC (Tarn...which we have seen in the past as being wrong in the past, even by her own admittance.) about two NPCs talking about the subject, which is different than the author of the book saying, "it is this way." !

actually, the connection between BTS and Rifts is made later on in the book, in the 3rd person omniscent "word of god" by the author. erin tarn merely writes down some details of their meeting in here narrative at the start.

i posted the page details somewhat earlier.

KS effectively did say "it is this way" by doing so.

If you are referring to the passage, "Evidence seemed to indicate that he had been flung into a nightmarish, future Earth. Germany to be exact, some three or four hundred years in the future." (italic emphasis mine), it does not say, it is. As much as Kevin, you, (and myself, actually) want BtS to be the prequel to Rifts and Chaos Earth, it officially isn't as per Rifter 2. Kevin specifically ended the fan wonder of if it was or not, yet this thread continues to press into almost 5 pages.

Are there alternate earths where there were? clearly. But I think that Mr Lo Fung, got here the same way that Victor lazlo did. Home boy hopped a rift.

except it's specifically stated, in 3rd person omnicsent, that Lo fung lived through the great catalysm and was one of the people to get a warning it was going to occur.

"Lo fung's mastery of ley lines, knowledge about rifts, and his connections to with psychics gave him advanced warning about the Coming of the Rifts. he and a number of his loyal followers were able to prepare, hide, and survive the Great Cataclysm, but even Lo Fung was not prepared for the measure of destruction and the new shape of the world.'
pg 152, just below the picture.

earlier on the page you had
:
"Lo Fung is an ancient Chiang-Ku dragon that has lived on the earth for over six thousand years victor lazlo met him while visiting Korea in 1963."

and
"When Victor lazlo Dissappeared in 1987, lo Fung secretly used his powers to try to locate him. When that failed, The Dragon became a key force in helping ot maintain the underground networl of psychics and arcanists founded by victor, the infamous Lazlo Agency (see the Beyond the Supernatural suppliment of the same name, available late 1993 or early '94)"

while they never released said suppliment, that pretty much clinches it. 3rd person omniscent, stating that Lo Fung existed in the past of rifts eath, and that the lazlo society mentioned is the same one from BTS.

you have WB4, saying in "word of kevin" that vic lazlo is from the past of rifts (and not a different universe), and the Lo Fung entry one the next page reinforces it.

then triax 2 reiterates it.

If material that retcons isn't canon material, the Boom Gun's Mach 4 slugs are not canon, they are only Mach 1. RUE updated the slugs from 1 to 4. Does that mean RUE is not canon? Oh, and crazies dont have autododge. Thats not canon either because RMB never gave them autododge. And Fire Dragons still exist in Rifts. Those Cat's Eye dragons are just fan fiction.

the issue isn't retcons, per say. materials since rifter 2 have retconed the retcon back to the WB4 scenario. Triax 2 reestablished Vic lazlo as being from the past of rifts earth, and Conversion book 1 revised reestablished BTS as the past of rifts earth by it's BTS intro section having been updated and the statement that it's considered the past of rifts earth left intact.

the issue is people insisting that the rifter 2 material, which was retconed away by KS in later books, overrules the newer material.

Ah...I see what Nightmask was saying! I misread his post. You cleared the point of view for me.

However, I respectfully disagree with a portion of the above. The material in Triax 2 still does not contradict the Rifter 2/Scrypers article. It simply states that he is from the past, doesnt say which one. It never says he is from Rifts Earth past, just that he had 20th century experience. A Robotech character would have a similar 20th century experience as well (as far as we know, 1987 Robotech Earth was identical to BtS Earth until perhaps the Robotech Global Civil War). So would a HU2 20th century character. That doesnt make them from Rifts Earth. Obviously the Victor Lazlo that disappeared on the Indian mound in 1987 on Rifts Earth had a VERY similar life as the Victor Lazlo who lives in Rifts Germany in 110 PA and is described in Rifts WB 31 Triax 2. But they are two separate people according to Kevin.

pg 10, WB31; triax 2 (april 2010 edition)
"-2380 (94 p.a.) Victor lazlo, the famous pre-rifts parapsychologist, reappears near the NGR border after having been gone nearly four hundred years'

note the use of "pre-rifts", "reappears", and "gone for 400 years". no mention of "another universe" or multiple pasts... the victor lazlo that appeared in rifts is the same victor lazlo that vanished in 1987.

this overrules the rifter 2 bit about dimension hopping. the fact that the victor lazlo that vanished in 1987 and reappered in the 24th century then met up with a person who both knew him from back then, and then lived through all the interveinig history supports this connection.


and as i've pointed out, megaverse builder established HU as having a different flow of time, different set of electrical physics, and a stronger dimensional fabric that prevents cross overs from other universes.

which makes the whole "merged" universes idea impossible.

The wording in CB1:R also does not say BtS is the prequel to Rifts Earth. It says "probably should be". That does not say "is". This is just Kevin's expression that this is how he plays it and if you choose to do so as well, then it is Rifts Earth's past, if not, than it isnt. This is just another example of Kevin leaving thing ambiguous so you can do what you want to do. Just like when the Xicitcix War started/ended, how the 4 horsemen were defeated, and what happened to the Valenx aliens.

pg 37, paragraph 1, column 1.
"The Earth of Beyond the Supernatural (BTS) can, and probably should, be considered Rifts earth a hundred or so years before the eruption of the ley lines and the coming of the rifts (I know, as the games designer, I tend to view it in this way). in that case, then BTS characters in the time of Rifts Earth must be people from Earth's past!"

"i know, as the games designer, i tend to view it this way". literal word of kevin saying he consideres BTS the past of rifts.

and as i've pointed out, in the new revised version has the exact same wording, despite the entire section getting a makeover to update to newer material. indicating kevin hadn't changed his mind avbout it.

[Nightmask]

Isn't it really academic at this point? If the Victor Lazlo present in Rifts really is from a different timeline, it is one that is nearly identical to the Rifts timeline - right up to the point that Victor himself vanished and then well afterward!

It is explicitly stated that Victor's books survived into present-day Rifts time, that they inspired Erin Tarn and the people of Lazlo (who did not name their city after him just because they were too dumb to come up with another name). It has also been stated that Mindwerks had dealings with the Lazlo Agency during the Golden Age (well after Victor's time).

Given that Victor is known for being a parapsychologist who correctly identified many of the phenomena seen on Rifts Earth all the way back in the 20th Century and the fact that he did all this is established Rifts Earth history makes the whole thing rather moot. If there were two timelines, and two Victor Lazlo's, both they and the worlds they lived in were almost exactly the same!

Which means that BtS is valid history for Rifts, because even if the actual game is assumed to be in a different timeline, it has almost exactly the same history as Rifts Earth.

Pretty much. No matter what stance you take, this stands true for both.

It is actually kind of funny if you think about it, because the original question in the thread really has it backward.

The question is not so much whether BtS is the actual history of Rifts, because we have already established that Rifts history is essentially the same in all respects as in BtS. The real question is whether Rifts is the actual future of BtS!

Well given Palladium has always held to a multiverse approach with divergent realities all around the answer would be 'yes, it's one future that branches off from BtS Earth'. There are other futures that don't have the Rifts event (the experimental arcology that appeared in one Rifts book is also from a golden age but one where the Cataclysm never occurred). Rifts Earth is just the more 'interesting' one, whereas the others are more uniform utopian I'd wager and not the sort you'd center a game setting around. Much like with the X-men having multiple divergent futures that are seen all spawned from the same past just having different choices happening leading to widely varying futures.

[Kagashi]

"Lo fung's mastery of ley lines, knowledge about rifts, and his connections to with psychics gave him advanced warning about the Coming of the Rifts. he and a number of his loyal followers were able to prepare, hide, and survive the Great Cataclysm, but even Lo Fung was not prepared for the measure of destruction and the new shape of the world.'
pg 152, just below the picture.

earlier on the page you had
:
"Lo Fung is an ancient Chiang-Ku dragon that has lived on the earth for over six thousand years victor lazlo met him while visiting Korea in 1963."

and
"When Victor lazlo Dissappeared in 1987, lo Fung secretly used his powers to try to locate him. When that failed, The Dragon became a key force in helping ot maintain the underground networl of psychics and arcanists founded by victor, the infamous Lazlo Agency (see the Beyond the Supernatural suppliment of the same name, available late 1993 or early '94)"

while they never released said suppliment, that pretty much clinches it. 3rd person omniscent, stating that Lo Fung existed in the past of rifts eath, and that the lazlo society mentioned is the same one from BTS.

you have WB4, saying in "word of kevin" that vic lazlo is from the past of rifts (and not a different universe), and the Lo Fung entry one the next page reinforces it.

then triax 2 reiterates it.

All it proves is there was a Victor Lazlo on Rifts Earth in 1987. Lets call him Victor Rifts. There is also Victor Beyond. They lived very similar lives.

pg 10, WB31; triax 2 (april 2010 edition)
"-2380 (94 p.a.) Victor lazlo, the famous pre-rifts parapsychologist, reappears near the NGR border after having been gone nearly four hundred years'

note the use of "pre-rifts", "reappears", and "gone for 400 years". no mention of "another universe" or multiple pasts... the victor lazlo that appeared in rifts is the same victor lazlo that vanished in 1987.

Certainly appears so. Perhaps Victor Beyond never came to Rifts Earth and this is Victor Rifts.

this overrules the rifter 2 bit about dimension hopping. the fact that the victor lazlo that vanished in 1987 and reappered in the 24th century then met up with a person who both knew him from back then, and then lived through all the interveinig history supports this connection.

Still doesnt make Rifter 2 invalid. If WB4 is indeed Victor Rifts, there is still another dimension called BtS which has a Victor Lazlo and a Lo Fung as well.

pg 37, paragraph 1, column 1.
"The Earth of Beyond the Supernatural (BTS) can, and probably should, be considered Rifts earth a hundred or so years before the eruption of the ley lines and the coming of the rifts (I know, as the games designer, I tend to view it in this way). in that case, then BTS characters in the time of Rifts Earth must be people from Earth's past!"

"i know, as the games designer, i tend to view it this way". literal word of kevin saying he consideres BTS the past of rifts.

and as i've pointed out, in the new revised version has the exact same wording, despite the entire section getting a makeover to update to newer material. indicating kevin hadn't changed his mind avbout it.

I dont see how that aids your argument. All you did is point out that it doesnt say "The Earth of Beyond the Supernatural is Rifts Earth a hundred or so years before the eruption of the ley lines..." Had it said that line, I would change my view point that BtS is officially Rifts past. All he says is thats how he runs things, which he has said in the past he runs his games different than the official rules at times. Why he would go out of the way and write a 3 page paper on why it isnt and just not make it officially joined, is beyond me.

[Nightmask]

"Lo fung's mastery of ley lines, knowledge about rifts, and his connections to with psychics gave him advanced warning about the Coming of the Rifts. he and a number of his loyal followers were able to prepare, hide, and survive the Great Cataclysm, but even Lo Fung was not prepared for the measure of destruction and the new shape of the world.'
pg 152, just below the picture.

earlier on the page you had
:
"Lo Fung is an ancient Chiang-Ku dragon that has lived on the earth for over six thousand years victor lazlo met him while visiting Korea in 1963."

and
"When Victor lazlo Dissappeared in 1987, lo Fung secretly used his powers to try to locate him. When that failed, The Dragon became a key force in helping ot maintain the underground networl of psychics and arcanists founded by victor, the infamous Lazlo Agency (see the Beyond the Supernatural suppliment of the same name, available late 1993 or early '94)"

while they never released said suppliment, that pretty much clinches it. 3rd person omniscent, stating that Lo Fung existed in the past of rifts eath, and that the lazlo society mentioned is the same one from BTS.

you have WB4, saying in "word of kevin" that vic lazlo is from the past of rifts (and not a different universe), and the Lo Fung entry one the next page reinforces it.

then triax 2 reiterates it.

All it proves is there was a Victor Lazlo on Rifts Earth in 1987. Lets call him Victor Rifts. There is also Victor Beyond. They lived very similar lives.

pg 10, WB31; triax 2 (april 2010 edition)
"-2380 (94 p.a.) Victor lazlo, the famous pre-rifts parapsychologist, reappears near the NGR border after having been gone nearly four hundred years'

note the use of "pre-rifts", "reappears", and "gone for 400 years". no mention of "another universe" or multiple pasts... the victor lazlo that appeared in rifts is the same victor lazlo that vanished in 1987.

Certainly appears so. Perhaps Victor Beyond never came to Rifts Earth and this is Victor Rifts.

this overrules the rifter 2 bit about dimension hopping. the fact that the victor lazlo that vanished in 1987 and reappered in the 24th century then met up with a person who both knew him from back then, and then lived through all the interveinig history supports this connection.

Still doesnt make Rifter 2 invalid. If WB4 is indeed Victor Rifts, there is still another dimension called BtS which has a Victor Lazlo and a Lo Fung as well.

pg 37, paragraph 1, column 1.
"The Earth of Beyond the Supernatural (BTS) can, and probably should, be considered Rifts earth a hundred or so years before the eruption of the ley lines and the coming of the rifts (I know, as the games designer, I tend to view it in this way). in that case, then BTS characters in the time of Rifts Earth must be people from Earth's past!"

"i know, as the games designer, i tend to view it this way". literal word of kevin saying he consideres BTS the past of rifts.

and as i've pointed out, in the new revised version has the exact same wording, despite the entire section getting a makeover to update to newer material. indicating kevin hadn't changed his mind avbout it.

I dont see how that aids your argument. All you did is point out that it doesnt say "The Earth of Beyond the Supernatural is Rifts Earth a hundred or so years before the eruption of the ley lines..." Had it said that line, I would change my view point that BtS is officially Rifts past. All he says is thats how he runs things, which he has said in the past he runs his games different than the official rules at times. Why he would go out of the way and write a 3 page paper on why it isnt and just not make it officially joined, is beyond me.

One would think when the game designer says, at a point well AFTER Rifter #2, that he considers Rifts Earth as being the future of BtS Earth, and game material written after that point is written with that as its premise, then it would be obvious to everyone that BtS Earth and Rifts Earth are one and the same just as different points in its history. It's a serious wallbanger to insist that Rifter #2 must be the only correct answer because it was written by the game designer when the same man years later says that he's changed his mind and that the correct answer is that BtS is Rifts Earth's past. Either you respect his answer that's the most recent or you don't care what his word is and only support the position you like more.

[cornholioprime]

You've no proof of that though. It's a direct cut and past, like 90% of the book. The 'new' material, is what I'd posted a while back where he lumps BTS in with 10 other games as being other dimensions. The part you're quoting is the same -exact- words and such as the book from before. Its not re-written. It's lifted in a click, drag, cut, and paste.

Which actually argues OUR point.

Kevin changed his mind once, and what was there to stop him from either changing his mind once again, AND/OR forgetting what he'd previously written once again?? Could he not have simply cut-and-pasted the Rifter/Skraypers "Victor crossed into the alternate Earth of Rifts" entry into the revised Conversion Book One entry instead of just going with the old "BtS is the past of Rifts" entry?

Moreover, just citing that things are cut-and-paste doesn't negate them, not with this gaming company. Hell, I've got a 3rd or fourth printing of the Mechanoid Invasion from 1999 somewhere around here....which makes the announcement of an upcoming Mechanoids supplement scheduled for 1994, an interesting sentence to read. Likewise, I think that I have a version of Rifts Underseas that says that Lemuria is on its way....which I bought AFTER Kevin confirmed that that project was going way onto the back burner.

We can and should generally assume that, unless we were there in the editing room with him and Alex and company and saw them just reprint something with no effort to fact-check whatsoever, that while Kevin's "cut-and-paste editing" might not be 100% up-to-date in its wording, that the general idea was something that they wanted to convey. If Kevin can pen an article in the pages of the Rifter that shows that he forgot HIS OWN origin story in blaming the misunderstanding on Victor Lazlo, then it is ENTIRELY possible that he, forgetting the changes he made in that earlier Rifter, went back to his original story.
(It could have also been an intentional choice for him to do so, of course.)


In short, if you're going to nix the Conversion Book One entry because of the relatively minor -and common -mistake that Kevin does when he cut and pastes material from other Books, then you have to also nix the HUGE mistake that Kevin made when he blamed Victor Lazlo for thinking that he was in the future of his own Earth, when in fact it was Kevin as "God" who originally confirmed that Lazlo was correct in thinking that he'd just gone forward in time on his own Earth, not across dimensions to another one.

You can't be intellectually consistent in saying that the mistake in one Book (CB-One [Revised]) should be discounted, but the mistake made when Kevin wrote the Rifter article should stand for all time.

[Kagashi]

One would think when the game designer says, at a point well AFTER Rifter #2, that he considers Rifts Earth as being the future of BtS Earth, and game material written after that point is written with that as its premise, then it would be obvious to everyone that BtS Earth and Rifts Earth are one and the same just as different points in its history. It's a serious wallbanger to insist that Rifter #2 must be the only correct answer because it was written by the game designer when the same man years later says that he's changed his mind and that the correct answer is that BtS is Rifts Earth's past. Either you respect his answer that's the most recent or you don't care what his word is and only support the position you like more.

- One would think if said game designer intended for BtS to be the history of Rifts, he would just make it so when he reprinted the Revised version of the Conversion book, not beat around the bush with "should be" and "can" statements in the original book (1991)...then waste time to write a 3 page paper on how the dimensions are different then print them in a Rifter (1998) AND a Rifts dimension book (also 1998)...then reprint the same "should be" and "can" statements from the earlier Conversion Book in the Revised version of the Conversion Book (2002). He is leaving it up to you the GM/player to roll with it if you want, but that doesnt make it official. The Rifter is clear on that.
- The info in RCB1:R is a cut and paste from the original Conversion Book (1991), which was written before Rifter 2 (1998). You are mistaken on when KS said what.
- You can always just throw that away if you dont like it though...like I do. I use BtS has Chaos Earth's history. Again, doesnt make BtS officially the history of Rifts.
- I do respect the most recent word, and there has yet to be the statement, "BtS is Rifts history." There is but only a statement that gets creative juices going that opens the possibility that they are linked in both versions of the Conversion Books should you choose to go down that path in your games, but clearly this is not official based off of the Rifter/canon Dimension Book. Anyway, if I didn't, why should that even bother you?

[cornholioprime]

Given the well-known internal consistency issues, is this not, again, all sort of a moot point?

Since BtS history and Rifts Earth history are virtually identical, we would really need a second Victor Lazlo to pop out of a rift for this to become measurable. Otherwise, any differences between the Victor we have and the one from BtS history are extremely negligible.

So what is the real issue here? As near as one can tell from canon, if someone from Rifts Earth traveled back in time to the late 20th Century, of the Rifts Earth timeline, they would find themselves in a world identical, or very nearly so, to the one depicted in BtS.

That's what makes the whole "Alternate Earth" thing so damned cheesy as a ret-con.

You mean to actually tell me that a Victor Lazlo from another Earth ALSO vanished in such a way as to inspire his Chiang-Ku friend to establish a Lazlo Society on that Earth that is EXACTLY the same in form and function as the one on this Earth? AND that the differences (if any) are so small that neither he nor Lo Fung have noticed even the SLIGHTEST difference in all the time that has passed since they were reunited?


Seriously, Kevin didn't need to go to the trouble, and for the life of me I can't understand why he even bothered, especially after what he himself said before across several books (looking back on it in the course of having this debate/discussion, and the premise actually looks pretty cool to me as originally written).
Maybe someone convinced him that if he separated the two settings, he would make more money or something. Or maybe some hardcore BtS fanboys complained to him that they were angry that BtS was directly linked with another Palladium title.

The mind boggles at trying to figure out his motivations.

[cornholioprime]

One would think when the game designer says, at a point well AFTER Rifter #2, that he considers Rifts Earth as being the future of BtS Earth, and game material written after that point is written with that as its premise, then it would be obvious to everyone that BtS Earth and Rifts Earth are one and the same just as different points in its history. It's a serious wallbanger to insist that Rifter #2 must be the only correct answer because it was written by the game designer when the same man years later says that he's changed his mind and that the correct answer is that BtS is Rifts Earth's past. Either you respect his answer that's the most recent or you don't care what his word is and only support the position you like more.

- One would think if said game designer intended for BtS to be the history of Rifts, he would just make it so when he reprinted the Revised version of the Conversion book, not beat around the bush with "should be" and "can" statements in the original book (1991)...then waste time to write a 3 page paper on how the dimensions are different then print them in a Rifter (1998) AND a Rifts dimension book (also 1998)...then reprint the same "should be" and "can" statements from the earlier Conversion Book in the Revised version of the Conversion Book (2002). He is leaving it up to you the GM/player to roll with it if you want, but that doesnt make it official. The Rifter is clear on that.
- The info in RCB1:R is a cut and paste from the original Conversion Book (1991), which was written before Rifter 2 (1998). You are mistaken on when KS said what.
- You can always just throw that away if you dont like it though...like I do. I use BtS has Chaos Earth's history. Again, doesnt make BtS officially the history of Rifts.
- I do respect the most recent word, and there has yet to be the statement, "BtS is Rifts history." There is but only a statement that gets creative juices going that opens the possibility that they are linked in both versions of the Conversion Books should you choose to go down that path in your games, but clearly this is not official based off of the Rifter/canon Dimension Book. Anyway, if I didn't, why should that even bother you?

We are not saying that Kevin didn't cut-and-paste the material from an earlier Book, we are saying that, even as a cut-and-paste (and an apparently 'lazy' one at that, keeping in the outdated V.L. blurb), it nevertheless represents Kevin's latest opinion on the matter.

To repeat what been most recently said, Kevin directly contradicted his earlier writing in attempting to fashion a ret-con of the Victor Lazlo storyline, and whether that was because he forgot what he wrote earlier or simply didn't research his own writings, we don't know. What, then, would have stopped him from forgetting and/or deliberately ret-conning what he wrote a second time around?

Again, he surely could have easily cut-and-pasted the Rifter #2/Skraypers entry into the BtS section of his revised Conversion Book instead of the original text.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Given the well-known internal consistency issues, is this not, again, all sort of a moot point?

Since BtS history and Rifts Earth history are virtually identical, we would really need a second Victor Lazlo to pop out of a rift for this to become measurable. Otherwise, any differences between the Victor we have and the one from BtS history are extremely negligible.

So what is the real issue here? As near as one can tell from canon, if someone from Rifts Earth traveled back in time to the late 20th Century, of the Rifts Earth timeline, they would find themselves in a world identical, or very nearly so, to the one depicted in BtS.

That's what makes the whole "Alternate Earth" thing so damned cheesy as a ret-con.

You mean to actually tell me that a Victor Lazlo from another Earth ALSO vanished in such a way as to inspire his Chiang-Ku friend to establish a Lazlo Society on that Earth that is EXACTLY the same in form and function as the one on this Earth? AND that the differences (if any) are so small that neither he nor Lo Fung have noticed even the SLIGHTEST difference in all the time that has passed since they were reunited?

In short. YES. That's ---exactly--- what he said. Think about it. Rifts past, Beyond past, and HU past all had an Abe Lincoln. On All three. he was assassinated. In all three the cuban missle crisis happened. In all three JFK was shot and killed. In all three WWI and WWII happened. in all three GW Bush was an a-hole. All three dimensions were close dimensional twins, with slight differences. They all had the same first 40 or so presidents of the US. 40 huge people all the same on three alternate dimensional worlds. Minor differences maybe but still there.

So, yes, there could be a Rifts Victor, a Beyond Victor and a HU Victor. Rift's victor jumps forward in time. Beyond victor... who knows where he went and HU victor is probably dead for being under powered and a dork.

But yes. You're finally getting it. In all three dimensions (Beyond, Rifts, HU)) All three Abe Lincolns died from assassination. in all three JFK died from assassination, ____ IN ALL THREE, VICTOR LAZLO DISSAPEARED. They're still three different people. Dimensionally speaking.

Seriously, Kevin didn't need to go to the trouble, and for the life of me I can't understand why he even bothered, especially after what he himself said before across several books (looking back on it in the course of having this debate/discussion, and the premise actually looks pretty cool to me as originally written).

Why did he retcon it? Who knows. I'd speculate "Money" being the short answer. But that we dont' know. We just know he did.

Maybe someone convinced him that if he separated the two settings, he would make more money or something. Or maybe some hardcore BtS fanboys complained to him that they were angry that BtS was directly linked with another Palladium title.

lol Yeah this is my guess. I mean you've seen just how many Beyond titles we've gotten.... ever.

The mind boggles at trying to figure out his motivations.

Indeed. The company is run like a hobby, not a business, so it's often baffling.

[Pepsi Jedi]

One would think when the game designer says, at a point well AFTER Rifter #2, that he considers Rifts Earth as being the future of BtS Earth, and game material written after that point is written with that as its premise, then it would be obvious to everyone that BtS Earth and Rifts Earth are one and the same just as different points in its history. It's a serious wallbanger to insist that Rifter #2 must be the only correct answer because it was written by the game designer when the same man years later says that he's changed his mind and that the correct answer is that BtS is Rifts Earth's past. Either you respect his answer that's the most recent or you don't care what his word is and only support the position you like more.

- One would think if said game designer intended for BtS to be the history of Rifts, he would just make it so when he reprinted the Revised version of the Conversion book, not beat around the bush with "should be" and "can" statements in the original book (1991)...then waste time to write a 3 page paper on how the dimensions are different then print them in a Rifter (1998) AND a Rifts dimension book (also 1998)...then reprint the same "should be" and "can" statements from the earlier Conversion Book in the Revised version of the Conversion Book (2002). He is leaving it up to you the GM/player to roll with it if you want, but that doesnt make it official. The Rifter is clear on that.
- The info in RCB1:R is a cut and paste from the original Conversion Book (1991), which was written before Rifter 2 (1998). You are mistaken on when KS said what.
- You can always just throw that away if you dont like it though...like I do. I use BtS has Chaos Earth's history. Again, doesnt make BtS officially the history of Rifts.
- I do respect the most recent word, and there has yet to be the statement, "BtS is Rifts history." There is but only a statement that gets creative juices going that opens the possibility that they are linked in both versions of the Conversion Books should you choose to go down that path in your games, but clearly this is not official based off of the Rifter/canon Dimension Book. Anyway, if I didn't, why should that even bother you?

We are not saying that Kevin didn't cut-and-paste the material from an earlier Book, we are saying that, even as a cut-and-paste (and an apparently 'lazy' one at that, keeping in the outdated V.L. blurb), it nevertheless represents Kevin's latest opinion on the matter.

To repeat what been most recently said, Kevin directly contradicted his earlier writing in attempting to fashion a ret-con of the Victor Lazlo storyline, and whether that was because he forgot what he wrote earlier or simply didn't research his own writings, we don't know. What, then, would have stopped him from forgetting and/or deliberately ret-conning what he wrote a second time around?

Again, he surely could have easily cut-and-pasted the Rifter #2/Skraypers entry into the BtS section of his revised Conversion Book instead of the original text.

But again.. cutting and pasting from a book into itself is alot different than pausing mid lifting of the book. Pulling out another book produced years eariler. Opening it. And cutting and pasting in the 3 pages (( vs one paragraph)) in the book. The tone and flow of the 3 page answer is also different and wouldn't have fit. So he'd have had to re-write it.

The cut and paste in revised conversion book was not in a section that was' revised'.

It's basically like saying "we have a recording of you in 98 saying something you sat down and explained fully at length in 2001 to be different. but we're going to use the recording because you DID say it at one time. See? We've copied the recording after 2001. It must be updated. " It's still old materiel. A reprint doesn't indicate backing if a new ruling has been made.

It's nothing that deep. Dude cut and pasted 90% of the book. he clearly didn't read every sentence. He read the NEW stuff and signed off on that. The old stuff was just lifted wholecloth. An old paragraph reproduced, word for word, in a reprint of a book, doesn't invalidate the 3 page 'Official answer' given.

[Zer0 Kay]

if you don't have both, please don't speculate on how something is "cut and paste'
i have conversion book 1, first printing no less, and here is what it says.
pg 37, paragraph 1, column 1.
"The Earth of Beyond the Supernatural (BTS) can, and probably should, be considered Rifts earth a hundred or so years before the eruption of the ley lines and the coming of the rifts (I know, as the games designer, I tend to view it in this way). in that case, then BTS characters in the time of Rifts Earth must be people from Earth's past!"

would someone with the revised want to chime in?

That pretty much cinches it for me. Though my copy of the revised edition is on permanent loan to a friend who has a bad habit of not returning my stuff, I have zero doubt that the exact passage is in its pages. With the editorial approval Kev has over the material, that does indeed make it the most recent official ruling on issue. But the real proof of this IS NOT in the first part Glitterboy2098 quoted, but in the paragraph that follows that says...

"Design Note: How all the Palladium worlds may tie together is ultimately left to you, the players. Which RPG worlds, if any, that you choose to link to Rifts is your decision. But I'll tell ya now, with hints like the cities of Lazlo and New Lazlo, and the mention of the ancient pioneer of magic, Victor Lazlo, you can bet that there will continue to be ties to Beyond the Supernatural. Heck, don't be surprised if ol' Vic makes an appearance. I'm not saying it will happen. I'm just saying it could happen, as far as I'm concerned. Hee. Hee." (CB1re pg 37)

Given that CB1re came out in 2002, if the part of the quote I placed in bold has been edited to reflect Victor Lazlo's introduction to the Rifts in the Africa book in any way whatsoever, that would more than cement his editorial stamp of approval. We really need someone with that book to chime in.

Got off my butt and pulled out my Conversion book 1, Revised.

Page 34 starts the "Characters from other RPGS" it does not mention BtS

Page 35 starts "Who is a D-Bee": Last paragraph, First collum

"This means most humans and humanoid visitors from other dimensions are seen as D-bees. Mutants ,cyborgs and superhumans from Heroes Unlimited, characters from Aliens ulimited and Mechanoids Space, martial artists and Superspies from Ninja's and Superspies RPG, Soldiers and lawmen from RECON, psychics and aracnists from Beyond the supernatural, the mystical nightbane from the Night bane RPG, human looking mutans from After the bomb RPG, or Humans from the past, present or alternate earths are all considered D-bees , other 'Dimensional beings".

You'll note that in the some what long run on sentence. BtS is lumped in right there with Aliens unlimited, Mechanoids, Recon, Ninja's and superspies, After the bomb, heroes unlimited. ect.

The next paragraph is also quite telling.

Page 35, first full paragraph.

"Of course many of these characters, especially humans from Beyond the supernatrual, Heroes unlimited, Ninja's and Superspies, RECON, The mechanoids ( and robotech) might be able to convincingly pass as true humans born on rifts earth."

(( their emphasis, not mine))

So again. BtS is lumped right in with Heroes Unlimited, Ninja's and Superspies, Recon. Ect, as being from other dimensions.

Page 37 in Conversion book one, Revised, has nothing about BtS. It has a picture of a Cyclopse, fighting an Ultra max. And a write up on Armor Rating.

I kept reading and found the BtS stuff on page 59... and what you have at the top is in there... but there was careful editing. For one, it leaves out the other notations in the same book (( shown above)) That state it's another dimenion.

And in addition to your quote it goes on to say

".... THe Alternative is that the earth of BtS is a similar but alternate dimension"

So while there is cut and pasting done from the first Conversion book. There's also additions that state more than once, BtS is another dimension.

And yes, while the quote you have above is there. The next paragraph also states that the "BTS is a similar but alternate dimension" Theory.

So if anything opening the actual book and looking it up (( Which sort of surprised me that none actually did, considering people were supposedly quoting from it with page numbers, that are wrong when you actually open the book)) It confirms both sides of the argument. On page 35 it confirms my side. Page 59 is a partial cut and paste from the first World book, (( That was shown above and would seem to confirm the other side)) but then it goes on to point out my side again as well.

It's not what you'd call conclusive as it clearly states both sides of the debate.

You invalidate your own argument with D-Bees and BtS being "lumped in" with the other books. Note the highlights D-Bees include different time as well as parallel dimension so it still leaves it open that any of the books mentioned above could be a different time not a parallel dimension or it could be a parallel dimension not a different time. But it doesn't specifically assign future, past OR parallel dimension. It is open to interpretation.

Where does it CLEARLY state BtS IS an alternate dimension? I only see it saying BtS COULD (as in it is possible but not definate) be an alternate dimension.

That's not how the sentence is written. It's written as a list of people from other dimensions, then says "OR" People from other times. By your logic Recon and Nightbane and Ninja's and superspies are all Rift's past. You're cherry picking BtS out of a list of like 10. what about all the others around it?

No... I'm not cherry picking. I didn't comment on the rest because the rest aren't part of this conversation. The same could be applied to the rest as well. But your right that was given as a list however the other dimension part is a sentence. Then it goes on to list the other books and then the humans from the past, present or alternate... So it doesn't list the other books as other dimensions. Besides as always it is entirely up to the GM. According to canon I don't think it has been shown, concretely, that the other books are other dimensions as in "Splicers is a seperate dimension from Rifts Earth" or any of the other books in place of Splicers.

[cornholioprime]

But again.. cutting and pasting from a book into itself is alot different than pausing mid lifting of the book. Pulling out another book produced years eariler. Opening it. And cutting and pasting in the 3 pages (( vs one paragraph)) in the book. The tone and flow of the 3 page answer is also different and wouldn't have fit. So he'd have had to re-write it.

The cut and paste in revised conversion book was not in a section that was' revised'.

It's basically like saying "we have a recording of you in 98 saying something you sat down and explained fully at length in 2001 to be different. but we're going to use the recording because you DID say it at one time. See? We've copied the recording after 2001. It must be updated. " It's still old materiel. A reprint doesn't indicate backing if a new ruling has been made.

Sure it does.

At work, in the legal profession, or anywhere else in the Megaverse, if an official source makes a new statement that contradicts an older statement -whether we are talking about real-life legal contracts, comic book superpowers, or, yes, gaming rules and trivia in a Conversion Book -the latest official statement is what stands.

You arguing that Older Version can't be supplanted by the Newer Version just because the Newer Version uses the words from the first printing, is like trying to argue to your Boss that if he first had a Uniform Policy of shirt-and-tie, then later changed it to Dress Casual, that he couldn't change it back to shirt-and-tie again just because he simply cut-and-pasted the text of the old dress code into the latest Employee Handbook.

At such time as you can actually prove that he (Kevin) and/or his proofreaders did indeed let a large portion of text to slip by them absolutely unnoticed (note that the section in question on page 59 covers more than one paragraph, almost half a page in fact, and would be quite a bit to just casually overlook), then I'll concede your point....but as it stands, at the moment, you're ascribing motives to Kevin's actions without knowing one way or the other and basing your conclusions primarily on that.

Me? I'll assume until such time as we get evidence to the contrary that he and his proofreaders and editorial staff and revisionists (and he's listed as being a part of all three groups) more or less knew what they were doing when they reintroduced the "BtS as the past of Rifts Earth" into the revised Book, instead of pasting the "BtS as an alternate Earth" Rifter article in full or in part into the book......
.....and we know that they could have done so if they wanted to because that is precisely what they did with the Skraypers section on Beyond the Supernatural (The Rifter article was first published in April 1998, and Skraypers came out in May of the same year).

[Pepsi Jedi]

That's not how the sentence is written. It's written as a list of people from other dimensions, then says "OR" People from other times. By your logic Recon and Nightbane and Ninja's and superspies are all Rift's past. You're cherry picking BtS out of a list of like 10. what about all the others around it?

No... I'm not cherry picking. I didn't comment on the rest because the rest aren't part of this conversation. The same could be applied to the rest as well. But your right that was given as a list however the other dimension part is a sentence. Then it goes on to list the other books and then the humans from the past, present or alternate... So it doesn't list the other books as other dimensions. Besides as always it is entirely up to the GM. According to canon I don't think it has been shown, concretely, that the other books are other dimensions as in "Splicers is a seperate dimension from Rifts Earth" or any of the other books in place of Splicers.

So out of "Mutants ,cyborgs and superhumans from Heroes Unlimited, characters from Aliens ulimited and Mechanoids Space, martial artists and Superspies from Ninja's and Superspies RPG, Soldiers and lawmen from RECON, psychics and aracnists from Beyond the supernatural, the mystical nightbane from the Night bane RPG, human looking mutans from After the bomb RPG" you're telling me you got 'BtS' as the only one that was Rift's past, when it was literally in the middle of the list. After HU, AU, Mech, N&SS, RECON..... and on the other side. Night bane... ATB...

You're honestly saying that out of that entire list.. he meant alll the rest one way, and BTS the other way? Really?

[Kagashi]

One would think when the game designer says, at a point well AFTER Rifter #2, that he considers Rifts Earth as being the future of BtS Earth, and game material written after that point is written with that as its premise, then it would be obvious to everyone that BtS Earth and Rifts Earth are one and the same just as different points in its history. It's a serious wallbanger to insist that Rifter #2 must be the only correct answer because it was written by the game designer when the same man years later says that he's changed his mind and that the correct answer is that BtS is Rifts Earth's past. Either you respect his answer that's the most recent or you don't care what his word is and only support the position you like more.

- One would think if said game designer intended for BtS to be the history of Rifts, he would just make it so when he reprinted the Revised version of the Conversion book, not beat around the bush with "should be" and "can" statements in the original book (1991)...then waste time to write a 3 page paper on how the dimensions are different then print them in a Rifter (1998) AND a Rifts dimension book (also 1998)...then reprint the same "should be" and "can" statements from the earlier Conversion Book in the Revised version of the Conversion Book (2002). He is leaving it up to you the GM/player to roll with it if you want, but that doesnt make it official. The Rifter is clear on that.
- The info in RCB1:R is a cut and paste from the original Conversion Book (1991), which was written before Rifter 2 (1998). You are mistaken on when KS said what.
- You can always just throw that away if you dont like it though...like I do. I use BtS has Chaos Earth's history. Again, doesnt make BtS officially the history of Rifts.
- I do respect the most recent word, and there has yet to be the statement, "BtS is Rifts history." There is but only a statement that gets creative juices going that opens the possibility that they are linked in both versions of the Conversion Books should you choose to go down that path in your games, but clearly this is not official based off of the Rifter/canon Dimension Book. Anyway, if I didn't, why should that even bother you?

We are not saying that Kevin didn't cut-and-paste the material from an earlier Book, we are saying that, even as a cut-and-paste (and an apparently 'lazy' one at that, keeping in the outdated V.L. blurb), it nevertheless represents Kevin's latest opinion on the matter.

To repeat what been most recently said, Kevin directly contradicted his earlier writing in attempting to fashion a ret-con of the Victor Lazlo storyline, and whether that was because he forgot what he wrote earlier or simply didn't research his own writings, we don't know. What, then, would have stopped him from forgetting and/or deliberately ret-conning what he wrote a second time around?

Again, he surely could have easily cut-and-pasted the Rifter #2/Skraypers entry into the BtS section of his revised Conversion Book instead of the original text.

And all Im saying is, the fact said cut and paste blurb doesnt say "is"...makes your argument moot. Why go out of his way to say "should be" when he very well could have just said "is"? Im saying that his latest word, proves it ISN'T another dimension (despite even the creator of the material using it that way in his games), supporting his in-depth explanation in Rifter 2 and Scrypers. So unless you grew up with different meanings to the words "should be" and "can", this is the last time you'll see me post the same thing over and over again. If you still want to argue, feel free to scroll up to see what I would say back to you.

[Nightmask]

And all Im saying is, the fact said cut and paste blurb doesnt say "is"...makes your argument moot. Why go out of his way to say "should be" when he very well could have just said "is"? Im saying that his latest word, proves it ISN'T another dimension (despite even the creator of the material using it that way in his games), supporting his in-depth explanation in Rifter 2 and Scrypers. So unless you grew up with different meanings to the words "should be" and "can", this is the last time you'll see me post the same thing over and over again. If you still want to argue, feel free to scroll up to see what I would say back to you.

Because while Kevin and Palladium considers BtS to be the past for Rifts Earth he realizes some fans seem to have an obsession with insisting each setting is completely unrelated and anything that seems to be the same must be rejected with quite extreme reactions if necessary. This is obvious in this very thread where some fans insist that all the material from Palladium including Kevin himself saying 'I consider BtS to be the past of Rifts Earth' doesn't exist or says the opposite of what it actually says and cling to a single article that's contradicted by all the material put out by Palladium that does deal with the topic in the various books. Which is why we see 'No Kevin had the final say way back then, the way I want it to be, and Kevin must be right!' while ignoring everything Kevin's said since then that says the opposite. So Kevin's word only matters when brought up in support of their desired result, his word is rejected when it says no they're wrong.

[cornholioprime]

And all Im saying is, the fact said cut and paste blurb doesnt say "is"...makes your argument moot. Why go out of his way to say "should be" when he very well could have just said "is"?

Can't tell you why he used such language; but all that I can tell you, is that when it is combined with all of the other material in the Books that we have thus far (and maybe somebody will still be able to find something to the contrary), that the words that he's used over several Books -a line of explanation broken only by the Rifter article and then apparently reverted back to in later books -is that he leaves no doubt as to where Victor Lazlo comes from, which is to say the past of Rifts Earth.

Off the top of my head, I can think of about 5 to 10 people who are EXPLICITLY mentioned, or at least strongly hinted to be, refugees from other Rifts modules -there are at least two in just the pages of Rifts: Mercenaries alone (Zippo and Kinoshi, maybe even Sonya Schultz, but I'm not looking in the book at the moment).

There is not, and never has been -besides the Rifter entry -ANY mention of Victor Lazlo being such, or being a "different" Lazlo other than THE Victor of "Beyond the Supernatural." Not even in the latest Book, Triax Two, where he is stated to have been simply shunted forward in time 400 years, not from another Earth.

[Damian Magecraft]

As long as palladium continues to shop their license all game lines not explicitly stated to be related (IE: Rifts and Chaos Earth) they will in all likelihood continue to be separate yet slightly connected. (licensing deals are very tricky business.)

[cornholioprime]

As long as palladium continues to shop their license all game lines not explicitly stated to be related (IE: Rifts and Chaos Earth) they will in all likelihood continue to be separate yet slightly connected. (licensing deals are very tricky business.)

Wow.

If that's a prime motivator for Kevin's actions...like, wow man.

I didn't know that the publishing business was so very very tricksy.

[Damian Magecraft]

As long as palladium continues to shop their license all game lines not explicitly stated to be related (IE: Rifts and Chaos Earth) they will in all likelihood continue to be separate yet slightly connected. (licensing deals are very tricky business.)

Wow.

If that's a prime motivator for Kevin's actions...like, wow man.

I didn't know that the publishing business was so very very tricksy.

the sarcasm does not aid your arguments...
you don't have to like it but you do have to live with the reality of it.
Hollywood especially is bad about trying to tie every thing they can into a licensing agreement (give them an inch and they will take a lightyear)...
The article in Rifter #2 (reprinted in Scraypers) is but one step toward protecting the separate licenses of each line.

[Dr. Doom III]

And all Im saying is, the fact said cut and paste blurb doesnt say "is"...makes your argument moot. Why go out of his way to say "should be" when he very well could have just said "is"?

Because Palladium is very big on the "whatever works for you" take on rules.