Weapons development in a MDC society

[csbioborg]

I don't see how weapons would develop in a society comprised of MDC being. Assuming they didn't just become that way by entering rifts earth and are MDC to begin with where would be the impetus to develop any beyond bow and arrows. Black powder would bounce right off them and with out that then were would be the desire to builkd the bigger more powerful weapons when you initial foray into the area met with no success. It seems like the Larhold Barbarian would be the best example of MDC development. This of course is assuming they don't have magic to supplement their weapons and are a pure tech society.

[glitterboy2098]

the Ojahee from SA2 seem to be a good possibility here. they are natural MDC beings, from a world where magic is pretty much non-existant, and the local technology is still early industrial (early 1800's, basically)
their weapons were primarily what we would consider large cannons, but to them are just muskets.

we're not told how they fought before the advent of gunpowder, but the tribal troops the particular group was fighting before they were dragooned int othe megaversal legion is described as having few guns and things like spears, swords, and bows.

since these are not likely MDC weapons the way a really large gun could be, it is possible their fighting styles focused on weakspots (such as the rules for hunting found in Dinosaur swamp, where MDC creatures can be brought down by weapons otherwise too weak to harm them as long as the animal is hit somewhere like the eye or similar, where things would not be as tough and allows for hitting vital things like the brain or lungs..)

[csbioborg]

Sure but I could not see that being as efficient as a bow and arrow assuming the environment has md materials to produce bows and arrows. Even in our real history bows and arrows were actually much more efficient than early guns depending on terrain. Note the Chinese never developing them to fight the mongols and the Indian tribes in the heavily wooded East having more success with arrows. Even the best normal rifle in Rifts which is found in Dino Swamp only does 1 md of damage were as a mega damage bow fired by a person with SN strength does 1d6 or 1d8 damage (let's ignore the game mechanics argument of whether SN strength get added on for right now). So it seems odd that a society would ever decide to use black powder when rate of fire damage and range (assuming SN str) is greater with a bow

[Nightmask]

Sure but I could not see that being as efficient as a bow and arrow assuming the environment has md materials to produce bows and arrows. Even in our real history bows and arrows were actually much more efficient than early guns depending on terrain. Note the Chinese never developing them to fight the mongols and the Indian tribes in the heavily wooded East having more success with arrows. Even the best normal rifle in Rifts which is found in Dino Swamp only does 1 md of damage were as a mega damage bow fired by a person with SN strength does 1d6 or 1d8 damage (let's ignore the game mechanics argument of whether SN strength get added on for right now). So it seems odd that a society would ever decide to use black powder when rate of fire damage and range (assuming SN str) is greater with a bow

The Chinese were also pretty rigid as a society, and aren't immune to getting locked in on an idea and not thinking beyond those limitations. They were introduced to the idea of gunpowder and saw it as a means of entertainment in the form of fireworks and society so saw it that way that no one could imagine those 'harmless' fireworks as being useful as actual weapons.

[ShadowLogan]

Black powder would bounce right off them and with out that then were would be the desire to builkd the bigger more powerful weapons when you initial foray into the area met with no success. I

Well the black powder may not fulfill the same role it does in SDC weapons. It may simply act to propel an "arrow" to the target for greater range. The arrow might be based on their "bow & arrow" or possibly simply tipped with poison (skin aborbtion or gas) or explosives.

This also presumes they don't develop something more energetic than regular black powder.

[csbioborg]

Black powder would bounce right off them and with out that then were would be the desire to builkd the bigger more powerful weapons when you initial foray into the area met with no success. I

Well the black powder may not fulfill the same role it does in SDC weapons. It may simply act to propel an "arrow" to the target for greater range. The arrow might be based on their "bow & arrow" or possibly simply tipped with poison (skin aborbtion or gas) or explosives.

This also presumes they don't develop something more energetic than regular black powder.

well I am saying its pretty hard to get to rail gun when normal gun didn't work out for you
also a person with SN str wouldn't really get much of a added advantage from putting a black powder accerlant behind every arrow
it would substantially reduce his rate of fire to light it and simply carrying copious amounts of black powder would be difficult.
Moreover I am not sure how much added benefit in range a person with SN str would get

[kronos]

Black powder would bounce right off them and with out that then were would be the desire to builkd the bigger more powerful weapons when you initial foray into the area met with no success. I

Well the black powder may not fulfill the same role it does in SDC weapons. It may simply act to propel an "arrow" to the target for greater range. The arrow might be based on their "bow & arrow" or possibly simply tipped with poison (skin aborbtion or gas) or explosives.

This also presumes they don't develop something more energetic than regular black powder.

well I am saying its pretty hard to get to rail gun when normal gun didn't work out for you
also a person with SN str wouldn't really get much of a added advantage from putting a black powder accerlant behind every arrow
it would substantially reduce his rate of fire to light it and simply carrying copious amounts of black powder would be difficult.
Moreover I am not sure how much added benefit in range a person with SN str would get

Actually.. I don't think it'd be very hard, in a manner of speaking, to go from bows & arrows/crossbows to railguns. Maybe the MD race has other elements available that aren't on Earth? Maybe they discovered more powerful magnetic stones/materials on their world which they can use their polar opposites to launch small projectiles from a crossbow like device. Thus "guns" aren't invented, but instead magnetically enhanced crossbows, which leads to railgun or coilgun style weapons but not called railguns.
Never underestimate the creativity that comes from the desire to kill something over there without actually going there and getting oneself hurt.

[Nightmask]

Black powder would bounce right off them and with out that then were would be the desire to builkd the bigger more powerful weapons when you initial foray into the area met with no success. I

Well the black powder may not fulfill the same role it does in SDC weapons. It may simply act to propel an "arrow" to the target for greater range. The arrow might be based on their "bow & arrow" or possibly simply tipped with poison (skin aborbtion or gas) or explosives.

This also presumes they don't develop something more energetic than regular black powder.

well I am saying its pretty hard to get to rail gun when normal gun didn't work out for you
also a person with SN str wouldn't really get much of a added advantage from putting a black powder accerlant behind every arrow
it would substantially reduce his rate of fire to light it and simply carrying copious amounts of black powder would be difficult.
Moreover I am not sure how much added benefit in range a person with SN str would get

Actually.. I don't think it'd be very hard, in a manner of speaking, to go from bows & arrows/crossbows to railguns. Maybe the MD race has other elements available that aren't on Earth? Maybe they discovered more powerful magnetic stones/materials on their world which they can use their polar opposites to launch small projectiles from a crossbow like device. Thus "guns" aren't invented, but instead magnetically enhanced crossbows, which leads to railgun or coilgun style weapons but not called railguns.
Never underestimate the creativity that comes from the desire to kill something over there without actually going there and getting oneself hurt.

Yes that desire to ensure that Mutually Assured Destruction is NOT active and that you're going to survive unlike the other guy is an extremely powerful motivator. It led to the development of spears, throwing sticks, the bow and arrow, right on up to today with long range intercontinental ballistic missiles and remote controlled drones. If it uses tools and has some measure of intelligence it's going to explore every possibility that comes around its way to see that its genes rather than the other guy's genes get passed on.

[Shark_Force]

i'm not so sure a bow would actually deal your supernatural PS damage. as has been noted many times, supernatural PS does mega-damage because it's supernatural, not because it's so much stronger than anything else.

but in any case, in an MDC society, it is likely that at least parts of the environment are also MDC, and can provide better penetration because of it. combine that with the fact that often MDC creatures are able to carry more weight because of higher or even supernatural PS, and all of a sudden you've got primitive cannons firing MDC cannonballs, which i would imagine are more capable of breaching MDC armor and hide. the first ones would likely be much like on earth... artillery, rather than handheld. cannons and mortars are simply better siege weapons (once developed to not explode in your face) than catapults, as i understand it. keep advancing for a while, and as their gunpowder improves (which may happen either quickly or slowly), they begin to be used as handheld weapons (remember, a .50 machine gun can deal MD on a burst in RUE now... if you make it something a bit heavier calibre, you could have crew-served guns that deal MD in a single shot, potentially, and potentially with extremely long range compared to a bow, to boot).

[ShadowLogan]

Black powder would bounce right off them and with out that then were would be the desire to builkd the bigger more powerful weapons when you initial foray into the area met with no success. I

Well the black powder may not fulfill the same role it does in SDC weapons. It may simply act to propel an "arrow" to the target for greater range. The arrow might be based on their "bow & arrow" or possibly simply tipped with poison (skin aborbtion or gas) or explosives.

This also presumes they don't develop something more energetic than regular black powder.

well I am saying its pretty hard to get to rail gun when normal gun didn't work out for you
also a person with SN str wouldn't really get much of a added advantage from putting a black powder accerlant behind every arrow
it would substantially reduce his rate of fire to light it and simply carrying copious amounts of black powder would be difficult.
Moreover I am not sure how much added benefit in range a person with SN str would get

Nor am I sure how much benifit SN-PS is to throwing objects, but guns certainly have a range advantage to normal PS throwing and arrows.

Rail Guns are not out of the question though. If the underlying technologies and science are present, it just requires one to connect them. Blackpowder technology itself I don't think is required here, but it may still find other uses (artillery, flares, "flash bang", etc).

While the black powder weapon may reduce the ROF, it should allow them to strike from longer ranges before switching to faster firing weapons.

[Dog_O_War]

I don't see how weapons would develop in a society comprised of MDC being. Assuming they didn't just become that way by entering rifts earth and are MDC to begin with where would be the impetus to develop any beyond bow and arrows. Black powder would bounce right off them and with out that then were would be the desire to builkd the bigger more powerful weapons when you initial foray into the area met with no success. It seems like the Larhold Barbarian would be the best example of MDC development. This of course is assuming they don't have magic to supplement their weapons and are a pure tech society.

Weapons are developed on the basis of what works, and that more is better. Weapon development would not be stunted based solely on the fact that some "weapons" could not hurt a target. In fact, that would only propel science to rapid advancement due to a desired goal in-mind.

Effectively (and using the gunpowder example), if Y amount of gunpowder cannot damage a target, then we will use X, where X gunpowder will.

[glitterboy2098]

i'm not so sure a bow would actually deal your supernatural PS damage. as has been noted many times, supernatural PS does mega-damage because it's supernatural, not because it's so much stronger than anything else.

actually, it's the inverse. SNPS is stronger than normal PS (just look at the lift and carry numbers). strong enough to inflict MDC on hits.

i think your confusing the frequently made point that SNPS does not mean the being has supernatural attributes

[Shark_Force]

i'm not so sure a bow would actually deal your supernatural PS damage. as has been noted many times, supernatural PS does mega-damage because it's supernatural, not because it's so much stronger than anything else.

actually, it's the inverse. SNPS is stronger than normal PS (just look at the lift and carry numbers). strong enough to inflict MDC on hits.

i think your confusing the frequently made point that SNPS does not mean the being has supernatural attributes

no, i'm not. there are some things (like juicers) which are stronger (as can be measured by how much they can carry per point of PS), yet nevertheless do considerably less damage with their punches and kicks.

SNPS is stronger than most normal humans, it is true. it is not the strength that causes mega-damage, however. it's the supernatural part. otherwise a human with regular PS 30 (can carry 600 lbs) would be able to deal as much damage as a creature with SNPS 12 (can carry 600 pounds) and on a power punch would deal 1d4 MD. an extremely strong human (PS 40, carrying capacity 800 pounds) would be able to deal mega-damage with a regular, full-strength punch (equivalent carrying capacity as SNPS 16).

instead, what we see is that a "regular" (i use the term loosely, given that PS 40 isn't exactly something you'll see every day) human with PS 40 deals 1d6 + 25 regular damage on a regular punch. 1d6 + 25 vs 1d6 x 100 for the same amount of force exerted tells me that there's something more to supernatural PS than just being really really strong.

[SolCannibal]

Power, RoF and range are not the only issues in weapons - reliability, ease of maitenance or production also play quite the important roles, thought mostly ignored in rpg mechanics as a whole. In fact a number of times through history they played more of a role than range, power & RoF, should be said.

The Kalashnikov's long-standing popularity through decades is a product of its durability, low production cost, and ease of use for example.

And rate of fire is inextricable from facility of reload in ancient firearms - that with all their limitations were still simpler to use than bow and arrow. Also, earlier, particularly late medieval, firearms were much closer to portable hand-held cannons than to modern pistols and modern assault rifles.

Making the jump into the MD field for a world of strong and very resistant aliens might be simpler technologically speaking than the centuries long progression into speed and fast repetition that firearms did in the history of our own world.

That supposing some crazed genius does not find a substitute for gunpowder or equivalent propellants in crazily elegant mechanics and gears derived from ballista & crossbows, pneumatic weapons similar to paintball guns (humanity has experimented with air pressure for a few centuries), proto-railguns or lasers out of weird studies on magnetism, light reflection &/or projection and who knows what else.

Legends like those of Archimedes Heat Ray or the Dendera Lights come to mind a bit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes ... s_Heat_Ray
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendera_light
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Battery

Hope the OP and other people find the possibilities entertaining at least.

[azazel1024]

Might not have been the same development path humans had to our current tech and beyond, but I don't see a reason an MDC race wouldn't develop it.

First, if only they are MDC on their planet, or not everything is MDC, black powder could help with hunting SDC creatures.

Black powder was used for mining long before it was used heavily in warfare. Mining and industry is a big area where I think you/others may be overlooking this.

Sure, regular old black powder and associated weapons might not really hurt the members of the species, but it still helps with mining. Maybe you can find better things that go boom for mining, nitro comes along, other explosives. Eventually you get to the point where large amounts of some of these are going to be able to (on purpose or by accident) hurt or kill members of the MDC race. A development or two from there and you have nitrocellulose long barrel guns firing .75 caliber high velocity bullets made out of dense and hard materials that ARE going to wound and kill memembers of their species as an example, and chemical and energy propelled warfare takes off.

[csbioborg]

i'm not so sure a bow would actually deal your supernatural PS damage. as has been noted many times, supernatural PS does mega-damage because it's supernatural, not because it's so much stronger than anything else.

actually, it's the inverse. SNPS is stronger than normal PS (just look at the lift and carry numbers). strong enough to inflict MDC on hits.

i think your confusing the frequently made point that SNPS does not mean the being has supernatural attributes

no, i'm not. there are some things (like juicers) which are stronger (as can be measured by how much they can carry per point of PS), yet nevertheless do considerably less damage with their punches and kicks.

SNPS is stronger than most normal humans, it is true. it is not the strength that causes mega-damage, however. it's the supernatural part. otherwise a human with regular PS 30 (can carry 600 lbs) would be able to deal as much damage as a creature with SNPS 12 (can carry 600 pounds) and on a power punch would deal 1d4 MD. an extremely strong human (PS 40, carrying capacity 800 pounds) would be able to deal mega-damage with a regular, full-strength punch (equivalent carrying capacity as SNPS 16).

instead, what we see is that a "regular" (i use the term loosely, given that PS 40 isn't exactly something you'll see every day) human with PS 40 deals 1d6 + 25 regular damage on a regular punch. 1d6 + 25 vs 1d6 x 100 for the same amount of force exerted tells me that there's something more to supernatural PS than just being really really strong.

some mdc beings don't have it because of magic
they just are by evolution or biology mdc and cause md

[cornholioprime]

i'm not so sure a bow would actually deal your supernatural PS damage. as has been noted many times, supernatural PS does mega-damage because it's supernatural, not because it's so much stronger than anything else.

but in any case, in an MDC society, it is likely that at least parts of the environment are also MDC, and can provide better penetration because of it. ***snip***

What he said, csbioborg.

The MDC lifeforms in an environment, would exist in a medium that is itself composed primarily or solely of MDC materials.....and as such, they would have "evolved" over time whatever physical attributes would be necessary to exist and feed and survive in such an environment.

Think of it this way: if a lifeform evolves to the point that it has skin and bone and flesh stronger than SDC metal, wouldn't it be logical to assume that they would also evolve teeth and claws and muscle strong enough to tear through MDC materials as well?

Which is to say, if there weren't an environment full of other MDC obstacles and foes to overcome and MDC food to capture, kill, and eat, then that MDC creature wouldn't evolve to MDC capacity in the first place -Evolution is brought about by Deadly Necessity and Deadly Competition.

[The Baron of chaos]

i'm not so sure a bow would actually deal your supernatural PS damage. as has been noted many times, supernatural PS does mega-damage because it's supernatural, not because it's so much stronger than anything else.

but in any case, in an MDC society, it is likely that at least parts of the environment are also MDC, and can provide better penetration because of it. ***snip***

What he said, csbioborg.

The MDC lifeforms in an environment, would exist in a medium that is itself composed primarily or solely of MDC materials.....and as such, they would have "evolved" over time whatever physical attributes would be necessary to exist and feed and survive in such an environment.

Think of it this way: if a lifeform evolves to the point that it has skin and bone and flesh stronger than SDC metal, wouldn't it be logical to assume that they would also evolve teeth and claws and muscle strong enough to tear through MDC materials as well?

Which is to say, if there weren't an environment full of other MDC obstacles and foes to overcome and MDC food to capture, kill, and eat, then that MDC creature wouldn't evolve to MDC capacity in the first place -Evolution is brought about by Deadly Necessity and Deadly Competition.

Well yes, except the inhabitants of Wormwood.(but i always assumed they all got at least augmented strength anyway)
Also on same logic, make sense that anyone evolving in MDC environment would develope weapons basing onf the data he could get from the physics and biology of given environment, much like we did in our own.

[Shark_Force]

some mdc beings don't have it because of magic
they just are by evolution or biology mdc and cause md

MDC is beside the point. or, if you're trying to suggest that some creatures have non-supernatural PS that is classified as supernatural PS, i disagree. supernatural PS lets you do supernatural things (in some cases including allowing you to harm things that are immune to normal mega-damage, but take damage from supernatural PS strikes).

some creatures do have superior types of strength which are not supernatural, however (such as augmented strength, and maybe some even have robotic strength though i can't think of any offhand). those creatures presumably have something more to their strength as well, given that similar lifting capacities inflict more damage. most likely it's a bit like body hardening techniques, where they tend to be a bit tougher (and therefore can inflict mega-damage because their fists actually have superior penetrating power relative to a regular human; possibly stronger bones, denser muscles, and tougher skin combined, for example.

[cornholioprime]

some mdc beings don't have it because of magic
they just are by evolution or biology mdc and cause md

MDC is beside the point. or, if you're trying to suggest that some creatures have non-supernatural PS that is classified as supernatural PS, i disagree. supernatural PS lets you do supernatural things (in some cases including allowing you to harm things that are immune to normal mega-damage, but take damage from supernatural PS strikes).

some creatures do have superior types of strength which are not supernatural, however (such as augmented strength, and maybe some even have robotic strength though i can't think of any offhand). those creatures presumably have something more to their strength as well, given that similar lifting capacities inflict more damage. most likely it's a bit like body hardening techniques, where they tend to be a bit tougher (and therefore can inflict mega-damage because their fists actually have superior penetrating power relative to a regular human; possibly stronger bones, denser muscles, and tougher skin combined, for example.

You are confusing PFRPG rules with Rifts.

Supernatural PS doesn't harm magically invulnerable creatures; a supernatural being does with its hands/claws/teeth, whether it has Supernatural PS or not. At least in the Rifts setting.

It's not your fault for mixing up the two, it's Palladium's.

[The Baron of chaos]

some mdc beings don't have it because of magic
they just are by evolution or biology mdc and cause md

MDC is beside the point. or, if you're trying to suggest that some creatures have non-supernatural PS that is classified as supernatural PS, i disagree. supernatural PS lets you do supernatural things (in some cases including allowing you to harm things that are immune to normal mega-damage, but take damage from supernatural PS strikes).

some creatures do have superior types of strength which are not supernatural, however (such as augmented strength, and maybe some even have robotic strength though i can't think of any offhand). those creatures presumably have something more to their strength as well, given that similar lifting capacities inflict more damage. most likely it's a bit like body hardening techniques, where they tend to be a bit tougher (and therefore can inflict mega-damage because their fists actually have superior penetrating power relative to a regular human; possibly stronger bones, denser muscles, and tougher skin combined, for example.

You are confusing PFRPG rules with Rifts.

Supernatural PS doesn't harm magically invulnerable creatures; a supernatural being does with its hands/claws/teeth, whether it has Supernatural PS or not. At least in the Rifts setting.

It's not your fault for mixing up the two, it's Palladium's.

Add to this that right now the "High Magic level cause Megadamage universe" is no more valid. See Splicer rpg for an example, and Megaverse Builder for the actual explanation about Rifts setting...

[Shark_Force]

some mdc beings don't have it because of magic
they just are by evolution or biology mdc and cause md

MDC is beside the point. or, if you're trying to suggest that some creatures have non-supernatural PS that is classified as supernatural PS, i disagree. supernatural PS lets you do supernatural things (in some cases including allowing you to harm things that are immune to normal mega-damage, but take damage from supernatural PS strikes).

some creatures do have superior types of strength which are not supernatural, however (such as augmented strength, and maybe some even have robotic strength though i can't think of any offhand). those creatures presumably have something more to their strength as well, given that similar lifting capacities inflict more damage. most likely it's a bit like body hardening techniques, where they tend to be a bit tougher (and therefore can inflict mega-damage because their fists actually have superior penetrating power relative to a regular human; possibly stronger bones, denser muscles, and tougher skin combined, for example.

You are confusing PFRPG rules with Rifts.

Supernatural PS doesn't harm magically invulnerable creatures; a supernatural being does with its hands/claws/teeth, whether it has Supernatural PS or not. At least in the Rifts setting.

It's not your fault for mixing up the two, it's Palladium's.

Add to this that right now the "High Magic level cause Megadamage universe" is no more valid. See Splicer rpg for an example, and Megaverse Builder for the actual explanation about Rifts setting...

those rules still apply to those creatures when placed into the rifts setting (or if something is taken from the rifts setting and moved over to the PFRPG setting).

there is still more to supernatural PS than merely being stronger. but yes, in many cases, supernatural PS is not sufficient to harm creatures with invulnerabilities; for example, vampires require explicitly *magical* attacks. i do seem to recall seeing creatures that are specifically vulnerable to supernatural PS but not regular PS (and also, certain objects are invulnerable to regular punches, but not punches from supernatural PS, regardless of how low that supernatural PS might be).