Coalition Civil War .. City against City ...

[Lenwen]

Which City of all the CS cities would win ..

Why and Why not ?

How would YOU write the outcome and who would be the winner in an all vrs all war ?

Who would start it ?

Would they ever be the same ?

Who is the most dangerous man in the CS (civil war wise? why? why not ?)

[dark brandon]

Which City of all the CS cities would win ..

Why and Why not ?

How would YOU write the outcome and who would be the winner in an all vrs all war ?

Who would start it ?

Would they ever be the same ?

Who is the most dangerous man in the CS (civil war wise? why? why not ?)

It wouldn't be a city vs city thing. A CS civil war would most likely happen with an honorable high-ranking officer taking the lead. More than likely, it will be General Holmes who is noted as truely caring about his soldiers, many of whom were promised they and their families safety into CS cities.

Elder Prosek would first die (his hold on the citizens is too strong) and Joseph would have to be out of commission. Bradford would probably try to usurp power and control in lone star, causing the generals in Chi-town to get defensive. He answers only to the Karl. This leaves a power vacuum that none can really claim, or rather many can claim. The CS begins to devour itself. Holmes is stead fast, and ends up winning support of most of the military which pisses every other general off.

Bradford and Holmes unite and take down the corruption that seeds within the CS. Bradford after all is no politician and most of the soldiers are going to be "allied" to the CS, which Holmes turns into a symbol of. In the end, they stand victorious.

During these times of trouble, CS citizens don't have much to worry about between themselves, but the FoM sees this as their time to strike and begin to terrorize innocent people. In the end, it'll be a repeat of the original War with the FoM, where CS wobbles and the shock is felt near and far. In the end, many come to the aid of CS, not out of want, but begrudgingly , that CS is "manageable", where as the FoM is lead by demons and monsters.

In the end, much like the original FoM war, Prosek comes out of the woodworks to strike a deceive blow to FoM, but with a little magical aid from Vanguard.

CS is safe, Joseph takes the helm (Holmes is a soldier not a politician) and probably reinvents the vanguard. CS stays mainly Fasist, but slightly more tolerable.

As to what they do from there, I can't say, since it depends on how I feel. In some ways, they may make peace with lazlo and other large nations, while continuing to expand and taking over smaller kingdoms. In others, they simply utilize magic and begin pushing out again. They may end up developing a program that "finds Dbees home worlds and send them back". Right now, I feel they become a nation that makes pacts with other nations around them. The mentality of the CS doesn't really change (a CS citizen never befriend a mage or dbee, but may do buisness), but they don't start fights either.

Easiest way to see this type of living is how people probably reacted black people right after Lincoln freed them. You'll have a much different reaction depending on where you go. Some more open cities like iron heart and such probably treat them like the north, while chi-town probably treats them with disdain and distrust.

I should note, that I don't see CS any time soon ever accepting Dbee races with supernatural strength or endurance, and while they won't be killed on sight, they are turned away at most CS outposts and cities.

[Vrykolas2k]

Hmmm...
Much of what Dark Brandon says makes a certain sense, however...
Joseph Prosek would not aid anyone who killed his father in a coup, directly or otherwise.
The CS would look like a snake eating its own tail and, while some nations would sympathize with the CS citizens, they probably wouldn't get involved... with the possible exception of Free Quebec, which might try to strong-arm its way into a leadership position.
The FoM might strike at that time, but I doubt Lazlo/New Lazlo would get involved, except to aid refugees. The CS has already proven its own wickedness, so they'd let the FoM and CS take eachother off the board, then do what they could for the survivors and clean up any remaining hostiles.
Besides, Lazlo will have its hands full trying to deal with the xiticix, and I doubt their leaders would be foolish enough to fight a war on two fronts.
After all, only the CS has limitless resources of men and materiale.

[dark brandon]

Hmmm...
Much of what Dark Brandon says makes a certain sense, however...
Joseph Prosek would not aid anyone who killed his father in a coup, directly or otherwise.

I didn't say anyone killed karl, just that he's dead. Karl holds too much sway over the military and it's men. He could kill their own mothers in front of them and they'd cheer him on. But it's his absence and his sons that allow the civil war to happen.

The CS would look like a snake eating its own tail and, while some nations would sympathize with the CS citizens, they probably wouldn't get involved... with the possible exception of Free Quebec, which might try to strong-arm its way into a leadership position.

No, I don't think anyone would help in the civil war per se. I don't even think in the civil war many CS citizens would suffer, except outside terroristic beat downs for supporting one side or another.

The FoM might strike at that time, but I doubt Lazlo/New Lazlo would get involved, except to aid refugees. The CS has already proven its own wickedness, so they'd let the FoM and CS take eachother off the board, then do what they could for the survivors and clean up any remaining hostiles.
Besides, Lazlo will have its hands full trying to deal with the xiticix, and I doubt their leaders would be foolish enough to fight a war on two fronts.

I'd have difficulty seeing them not jump at the chance to help CS. This would present too good an opportunity to show the "good" side of magic and dbees. Unlike Tolkeen, they would stand a viable chance of winning. It should be noted that I think that while the CS would once again defeat the FoM, the losses for the CS would be heavy. In this aspect, Lazlo would still have an enemy who are going to be even more resolved in purging the earth. At least if they help and offer assistance, it will lead to a changing of thinking. Not to mention that if they help the CS, the CS would make a great allie in taking down the bugs. If at anything supplying them with Skelebots.

All in all, while Lazlo may/may not help, I think it would be in their best interest to help.

Interestingly enough, I see the Cyber-knights going to the aid of CS. Where as the Cyber-knight leadership denounced the Tolkeen/cs war because it was a war of nations, FoM is pretty much strictly evil, CS can at least be seen as misguided and thus I could see a unified CK effort. Will they all go? Probably not, and you may see another division, but probably not as bad as it was in the tolkeen war.

[Vrykolas2k]

One of the main reasons I don't see Lazlo helping is as simple as "death by friendly fire".
Same with the cyber-knights, many of whom aren't human... and the human ones have probably witnessed and/or halted CS atrocities against innocent d-bees.
CS "soldiers" probably wouldn't have any compunctions against shooting d-bees and magi who are trying to help them, simply seeing it as d-bees and magi turning against eachother, just as the CS has been indoctrinated into thinking.
The CS would be doomed to failure outside of a game, simply because their policies would make them far too many enemies. They'd stand and fall alone. It isn't like the CS was entirely innocent with the original FoM war, after all; and then attacking Tolkeen, which was no threat to them, would give the leaders of the other nations pause about helping the CS.
Every village they destroy would just make their troops hated targets wherever they went, and eventually the cost in lives and equipment to the military would make anything outside of patrolling each city-state's own borders folly.

[dark brandon]

One of the main reasons I don't see Lazlo helping is as simple as "death by friendly fire".
Same with the cyber-knights, many of whom aren't human... and the human ones have probably witnessed and/or halted CS atrocities against innocent d-bees.
CS "soldiers" probably wouldn't have any compunctions against shooting d-bees and magi who are trying to help them, simply seeing it as d-bees and magi turning against eachother, just as the CS has been indoctrinated into thinking.
The CS would be doomed to failure outside of a game, simply because their policies would make them far too many enemies. They'd stand and fall alone. It isn't like the CS was entirely innocent with the original FoM war, after all; and then attacking Tolkeen, which was no threat to them, would give the leaders of the other nations pause about helping the CS.
Every village they destroy would just make their troops hated targets wherever they went, and eventually the cost in lives and equipment to the military would make anything outside of patrolling each city-state's own borders folly.

We'll agree to disagree on this.

[taalismn]

Bradford's position is such that he'd want somebody as brilliant as his old pal Karl in the political position of power, while Bradford is allowed free hand in LOne Star to play God Behind the Scenes....Joe Jr. has reservations about Bradford, and has sent people sniffing around, so Bradford, given an intelligent choice who knows enough to leave Bradford alone, isn't going to support the junior Prosek(hey, even gods can get snooty and peevish...it's almost part of the job description)...whether Holmes is that intelligent, remains to be seen.....

[Library Ogre]

It depends on circumstances. I am going to assume that Karl dies, and Joseph brings the Vanguard into the fold officially; I think that would lead to the most violent decompression of the Coalition States.

Joseph would likely maintain control of Chi-town and Missouri (which is said to be a client state, more or less, of Chi-town). His influence is strongest there, and he'd likely be able to maintain control with his personal power. Arkansas might separate off from such a move... it's new to the fold, and could survive on its own. Lone Star would probably separate, given Bradford's opinion of Joe, and vice versa... the tricky part would be who is general at that point, and their opinion of Joe. I don't put it past Bradford to seal the complex and try to exist independently. If the scenario falls out as I said, then Iron Heart will also leave... they hate men of magic even more than Chi-Town, to the point where the CS was a moderating influence.

Who would win? That's a rougher question, subject to a lot of factors. If the CS general in Lone Star was pro-Bradford, I'd put money on Lone Star. They have sufficient facilities to grow and train large numbers of Dog Boys, plus producing a variety of weapons, skelebots, power armor, and the like. They've also got some protection from distance... anyone screaming their way across the desert to attack them is going to be visible from a great distance, while the reverse is not true... strike teams can use the Ozarks for cover when moving towards Chi-town and Arkansas. Chi-town has a huge amount of power, but they'd also be caught in the middle... Iron Heart to the east, Lone Star to the south west, and Arkansas to the south. Arkansas I see as being primarily defensive... not trying to overthrow anyone, but trying to keep everyone out, including the brown-water elements not loyal to them.

[CushionRide]

on the issue with Bradford, ive taken a great study of the man, and his work in lonestar. in all honesty i could see him as being the one behind the whole civil war. Karl prozek is the only man that really stands in his path of self proclaimed godhood. the man actually reminds me of Commander Gullio from the Guyver series. he seems to seek the ultimate power through his genetic experiments, and once he has perfected making the ultimate weapon. i dont think anything would stop him from using it to undermind the CS states from within.

i did my own game using things from the Guyver saga. i thought it was a good game, most of us had a blast. basicly i started the players out as basic human classes in wherever they decided to start their lives in. in the first adventure they get captured by the coalition and sent to lone star to experience genetic..... manipulation. after that its all about what they want to do from there.

along time ago i found some rifts converstion pages an a now unknown website on how to make a Zoanoid, Zoalord, and the Guyver. everything seemed pretty balanced and workable except for the guyver so i excluded that part. but i made Bradford a Zoalord.... lol all i got to say is... he was cool lol and the zoanoids were'nt all that dangerous.... if you were a heavy hitter. one of my players was an ex-coalition scout. he got creamed.. alot but i had a borg in the party, he cleaned up, and the other player was a mystic knight, he cleaned up to.

oops sorry i went on a tangent, lol

[dark brandon]

excently said darkbrandon, but there is just one thing. i dont believe the cs will ever accept or not try to outright kill dbees.

Ever is a long time.

I don't think in one generation will be enough time, but assuming a sort of peaceful co-existance with no huge wars or anything, I'd find it hard to believe in 4 generations there won't be some acceptance.

[taalismn]

excently said darkbrandon, but there is just one thing. i dont believe the cs will ever accept or not try to outright kill dbees.

Nobody thought the Berlin Wall would fall either...(at least on the communist side of it)
On the other hand, we have the long-running hatreds of the Middle East to serve as models of long-running and bitter feuds...

[dark brandon]

excently said darkbrandon, but there is just one thing. i dont believe the cs will ever accept or not try to outright kill dbees.

Nobody thought the Berlin Wall would fall either...(at least on the communist side of it)
On the other hand, we have the long-running hatreds of the Middle East to serve as models of long-running and bitter feuds...

I would assume a progressive nation would not fall into the follies that the middle east does.

[Vrykolas2k]

excently said darkbrandon, but there is just one thing. i dont believe the cs will ever accept or not try to outright kill dbees.

Nobody thought the Berlin Wall would fall either...(at least on the communist side of it)
On the other hand, we have the long-running hatreds of the Middle East to serve as models of long-running and bitter feuds...

I would assume a progressive nation would not fall into the follies that the middle east does.

Trying to figure out when a nation patterned after Nazi Germany became... progressive?

[taalismn]

excently said darkbrandon, but there is just one thing. i dont believe the cs will ever accept or not try to outright kill dbees.

Nobody thought the Berlin Wall would fall either...(at least on the communist side of it)
On the other hand, we have the long-running hatreds of the Middle East to serve as models of long-running and bitter feuds...

I would assume a progressive nation would not fall into the follies that the middle east does.

Enlightenment and progressivism have a nasty habit of backsliding into bad habits...and the differences between d-bee and human(or even human d-bees) can be even greater than those between, say, Israelis and Palestineans...if not religion, then economics....

To be progessive in this case, a tolerance-minded CS would have to show a willingness to offer equal economic incentive to d-bees in its territories, without threatening the traditional human workforce(again, we have the example of migrant workers and illegal aliens in America as a guide)...
The new movie by Clint Eastwood about a diehard American conservative dealing with Asian-American neighbors might also be worth seeing in this light(Clint as Coalition reformer? )

[dark brandon]

excently said darkbrandon, but there is just one thing. i dont believe the cs will ever accept or not try to outright kill dbees.

Nobody thought the Berlin Wall would fall either...(at least on the communist side of it)
On the other hand, we have the long-running hatreds of the Middle East to serve as models of long-running and bitter feuds...

I would assume a progressive nation would not fall into the follies that the middle east does.

Trying to figure out when a nation patterned after Nazi Germany became... progressive?

Is the Germany today as bad as it was during WW2?

[taalismn]

excently said darkbrandon, but there is just one thing. i dont believe the cs will ever accept or not try to outright kill dbees.

Nobody thought the Berlin Wall would fall either...(at least on the communist side of it)
On the other hand, we have the long-running hatreds of the Middle East to serve as models of long-running and bitter feuds...

I would assume a progressive nation would not fall into the follies that the middle east does.

Trying to figure out when a nation patterned after Nazi Germany became... progressive?

Without violent upheaval? LIke the fall of Nazi Germany?
Or a long hard painful slow collapse like the USSR from its Stalinist age through Kruschevism and Brehznev to the open policies of Gorbachev?

[taalismn]

[

Is the Germany today as bad as it was during WW2?

The modern German state arose from the divvied up remains of a country that got unconditionally crunched by its enemies...

Could a fascist state more peacefully change itself without exposing its throat to its many enemies?
The USSR might be a better example(and how, in light of current developments, it's all too easy to fall back on old ways)...

And if the CS became progressive, how might the old NEMA Republicans jump?
Take the opportunity to run their coup scenario, or try to slide in and assist the process along(the Republicans are hardly any less xenophobic than the Coalition, only less obvious about it...).

[dark brandon]

The modern German state arose from the divvied up remains of a country that got unconditionally crunched by its enemies...

Could a fascist state more peacefully change itself without exposing its throat to its many enemies?
The USSR might be a better example(and how, in light of current developments, it's all too easy to fall back on old ways)...

And if the CS became progressive, how might the old NEMA Republicans jump?
Take the opportunity to run their coup scenario, or try to slide in and assist the process along(the Republicans are hardly any less xenophobic than the Coalition, only less obvious about it...).

I dunno. US was pretty racist. I mean, look at how we treated native Americans. After what...100 years or so...we're not perfect, but we have a black president, and native americans have casinos.

[taalismn]

Point....Trail of Tears and reservations...
And the CS attempt to build concentration/death camps fell flat due to the need to provide the higher-ups with plausible deniability...Plus no SS death camp ever got 'liberated' by its own troops...

[dark brandon]

Point....Trail of Tears and reservations...
And the CS attempt to build concentration/death camps fell flat due to the need to provide the higher-ups with plausible deniability...Plus no SS death camp ever got 'liberated' by its own troops...

What about shindlers list? I don't know if it was an entire camp...but he did liberate many and he was a nazi.

[taalismn]

Point....Trail of Tears and reservations...
And the CS attempt to build concentration/death camps fell flat due to the need to provide the higher-ups with plausible deniability...Plus no SS death camp ever got 'liberated' by its own troops...

What about shindlers list? I don't know if it was an entire camp...but he did liberate many and he was a nazi.

Party Member...it was the social vogue, pre-WW2, to join the National Socialists and be seen as progressive(or at least not anti-Hitler) and came with the sort of social and economic perks that one might get from being part of the Teamsters'---a nation-wide Old Boys' Network...You didn't necessarily have to buy into the whole cause, unless you caught the attention of the SS, but you had to be pro-German and do your part...(Remember The Producers' 'Springtime for Hitler' ditty; "Get Wise and Be a Smarty, Come and Join the Nazi Party!"?)
So there were a lot of Germans who joined the Nazis in name only, but paid lip service to the more extreme views of the party(not enough though...there was considerable pressure not to rock the boat and ruin a good thing for everybody who waxed wealthy off the contracts, discounted raw materials, and slave labor pushed their way...and thus a lot of later guilt-by-association to keep them quiet when they became aware of the more monstrous deeds of the Nazi machine).
John Rabe was another Nazi loyalist who showed a spark of humanity...an electronics salesman in Nanking, China, at the time of its conquest by the Japanese, he helped organize international safe havens in the city's foreign quarter for victims of Japanese atrocities, and tried to get Hitler to pressure the Germans' Axis partners to quit slaughtering the Chinese civilians...he was subsequently arrested when he returned to Germany(but managed to survive the war...his tale is documented in the book The Rape of Nanking)...He was also likely only in the Party for the economic and social clout it gave him and his family...

The White Rose was the German passive resistance to the Nazi Party(when I first see MadHaven's Knights of the White Rose, I thought, and hoped, it was an allusion to this group)...they got imprisioned and slaughtered by the hundreds for their courage.

[Ravenwing]

Personally I can see the CS coming to Accept human looking D-bees fairly quickly, say 10-20 years. After Karl is removed. Now when I say accepted I don't mean every CS citizen goes outta their way to make the Xeno's life a cake walk and hand him a cookie. I'm positive that the D-bee in question would suffer some extreme racisim. Not to use the analogy again, but I see D-Bees lives in a Progressive CS society much like African Americans in america after the Civil war. Infact I would even add that thinking to the Vangaurd. Only with the added effects of a similiar system as the psychic IC programs.


Furthermore: In a war between the CS and FoM I would argue that it would be the perfect moment for Lazlo to come to the aide of the CS. It would take away thier most dangerous rival. In the event that the CS is in a Civil War The two(or more) sides in the CS conflict would naturally look for aide outside their nation, if for no other reason, then they can't really trust themselves. assuming Lazlo backed the winner in the CS civil war, that winner would naturally fel some sort of gratiude towards Lazlo. This is itself the moment that Lazlo, IMHO would have been praying for. A chance to influence the mightest nation in NA, if not the HUMAN world. This would fit with Lazlo's canon mentallity. They could then influence changes in the CS to "Enlighten" them. This would fit Lazlo's general motus operandi.

AS to damage that FoM would do to the CS, I'd say it would be only slight. I Don't see it as a major war, only as a minor annoyance for the CS as a whole. Of coarse without the strong leadership it has had, that annoyance would be a minor threat. Kinda like a 1st level character attacking a level 15th when he's down to half his health, and ammo. However, I could see Lazlo useing this to worm it's way into the CS halls of goverment.

[taalismn]

Kinda curious....FoM makes mention of the rescue of Prosek's wife from the hands of Dunscon's goons...kinda wonder if KS has plans for her in the future or if she's fated to vanish into CS coverup/protective custody.

[Lenwen]

By my reasoning .. the deadliest man in the whole CS is flat out Desmond Bradford ...

He can litterally Create his own military army ... Genetically grown ..

He can litterally produce the hardware needed to gear and transport that military army ... Several dif Production facilities ...

He can litterally produce enough food to feed the entire Coalition population RIGHT NOW .. so feeding his army would be no big deal ..

In my personal estimation .. with Elder Prosek outta the way .. within a two year time frame of him backing which ever pawn he wanted to for sake of arguements sake he could litterally build his own military and become a North American powerhouse all on his own with his little "gene troopers "

And he is easily delusional enough to do it .. with the right circumstances in place ...

[Vrykolas2k]

Oookay.
Now for those who don't think CS troops would shoot their "Lazlo allies", I'd like some rationale.
You're talking about people who are at war with d-bees and magic-users, have been taught all of their lives they're the enemy, and now suddenly they're going to accept the aid of d-bees and magic-users because... why?
Sorry, I'm not seeing the sense.
If the CS in in a civil war, there will be commanders who will have sympathies to one city-state or the other... hell, the troops themselves will as well.
Now they get attacked by the FoM and word comes down to "don't attack the d-bee scum over here, but attack those over there".
That's going to be ignored as misinformation. The troops will attack in both directions, as well as fighting whatever city-state(s) they don't support. A CS civil war would be a total cluster... well, you get the idea.
And I think the leadership at Lazlo would be intelligent enough to recognize that fact.

[MikelAmroni]

Oookay.
Now for those who don't think CS troops would shoot their "Lazlo allies", I'd like some rationale.
You're talking about people who are at war with d-bees and magic-users, have been taught all of their lives they're the enemy, and now suddenly they're going to accept the aid of d-bees and magic-users because... why?
Sorry, I'm not seeing the sense.
If the CS in in a civil war, there will be commanders who will have sympathies to one city-state or the other... hell, the troops themselves will as well.
Now they get attacked by the FoM and word comes down to "don't attack the d-bee scum over here, but attack those over there".
That's going to be ignored as misinformation. The troops will attack in both directions, as well as fighting whatever city-state(s) they don't support. A CS civil war would be a total cluster... well, you get the idea.
And I think the leadership at Lazlo would be intelligent enough to recognize that fact.

[Command Vehicle Relentless2B0031A "Joseph's Fury"]

Comm Tech [looking at screens]: Squad Alpha, confirm status.
Squad Alpha CO [over radio]: Confirmed command. The d*mn d-bees seem to be tearing into each other. New batch seems to be attacking the rest. Orders?
Comm Tech [to Battalion Commander]: Sir, Squads Alpha, Bravo, and Charlie all report that a new force of D-Bees seem to be reinforcing us, and attacking the enemy. I've confirmed from all squads, and its happening all over the front. Orders?
Battalion Commander: Hold the line. If any of the new ones fire on us, then blow them away, otherwise, tell the troops to check fire. If the enemy isn't making moves against us, don't attack. But if they feel threatened at all, tell them to fire. I'm not going to be suckered into some trap, but I'm not going to fire on our reinforcements, even if I'd just as soon kill them as help them. Hold the line, pursue objectives, try and stay clear of the new forces. If they get in the way, warn them once, and then if they do not withdraw, consider them enemy troops. Make sure you tell them if they get in our way we will blow them away.
Comm Tech: Yes Sir! [starts relaying orders]
Battalion Commander [to an aid]: I don't know why they're helping, but right now we can use the help. Just make sure we move up our reinforcements. I am not depending on those magic lovin' monsters just because their enemy and our enemy might be the same. But I sure as hell aint looking a gift horse in the mouth until its time to bridle her.

My take on how that little exchange would happen. The CS commanders wouldn't be so zealous to kill D-bees that they are going to attack the people who are saving them. But truce and cease-fire are two WIDELY different things. Afterwards they might even have a sort of non-agression treaty going. "We won't attack you, if you help us contain the Federation." I don't ever see the CS going to full inclusion, though I do think that the RCSG will eventually find a way to have mages who aren't so "mystical" in nature. Although it would be flavor only, they would eventually have it compared to psionics, and gain grudging support for mage support for the army, although they would likely have an "escort" of a Dogboy squad and a Psi-nullifier psi-stalker, to ensure that if they do go rogue, they can be taken down.

[Vrykolas2k]

Oookay.
Now for those who don't think CS troops would shoot their "Lazlo allies", I'd like some rationale.
You're talking about people who are at war with d-bees and magic-users, have been taught all of their lives they're the enemy, and now suddenly they're going to accept the aid of d-bees and magic-users because... why?
Sorry, I'm not seeing the sense.
If the CS in in a civil war, there will be commanders who will have sympathies to one city-state or the other... hell, the troops themselves will as well.
Now they get attacked by the FoM and word comes down to "don't attack the d-bee scum over here, but attack those over there".
That's going to be ignored as misinformation. The troops will attack in both directions, as well as fighting whatever city-state(s) they don't support. A CS civil war would be a total cluster... well, you get the idea.
And I think the leadership at Lazlo would be intelligent enough to recognize that fact.

[Command Vehicle Relentless2B0031A "Joseph's Fury"]

Comm Tech [looking at screens]: Squad Alpha, confirm status.
Squad Alpha CO [over radio]: Confirmed command. The d*mn d-bees seem to be tearing into each other. New batch seems to be attacking the rest. Orders?
Comm Tech [to Battalion Commander]: Sir, Squads Alpha, Bravo, and Charlie all report that a new force of D-Bees seem to be reinforcing us, and attacking the enemy. I've confirmed from all squads, and its happening all over the front. Orders?
Battalion Commander: Hold the line. If any of the new ones fire on us, then blow them away, otherwise, tell the troops to check fire. If the enemy isn't making moves against us, don't attack. But if they feel threatened at all, tell them to fire. I'm not going to be suckered into some trap, but I'm not going to fire on our reinforcements, even if I'd just as soon kill them as help them. Hold the line, pursue objectives, try and stay clear of the new forces. If they get in the way, warn them once, and then if they do not withdraw, consider them enemy troops. Make sure you tell them if they get in our way we will blow them away.
Comm Tech: Yes Sir! [starts relaying orders]
Battalion Commander [to an aid]: I don't know why they're helping, but right now we can use the help. Just make sure we move up our reinforcements. I am not depending on those magic lovin' monsters just because their enemy and our enemy might be the same. But I sure as hell aint looking a gift horse in the mouth until its time to bridle her.

My take on how that little exchange would happen. The CS commanders wouldn't be so zealous to kill D-bees that they are going to attack the people who are saving them. But truce and cease-fire are two WIDELY different things. Afterwards they might even have a sort of non-agression treaty going. "We won't attack you, if you help us contain the Federation." I don't ever see the CS going to full inclusion, though I do think that the RCSG will eventually find a way to have mages who aren't so "mystical" in nature. Although it would be flavor only, they would eventually have it compared to psionics, and gain grudging support for mage support for the army, although they would likely have an "escort" of a Dogboy squad and a Psi-nullifier psi-stalker, to ensure that if they do go rogue, they can be taken down.

That might be the way with the rare Unprincipled or uncommon Aberrant, but what of the far more common Anarchist and Miscreant personnel?
That's the problem.
That, and the fact that when the d-bees and magi show up from Lazlo, they're more likely to be shot on sight, the CS thinking that they're reinforcing the FoM.
It isn't like the FoM doesn't have radios and the ability to use them to a advantage.
"Ya, we're from Lazlo... we're here to help you."

[MikelAmroni]

That might be the way with the rare Unprincipled or uncommon Aberrant, but what of the far more common Anarchist and Miscreant personnel?
That's the problem.
That, and the fact that when the d-bees and magi show up from Lazlo, they're more likely to be shot on sight, the CS thinking that they're reinforcing the FoM.
It isn't like the FoM doesn't have radios and the ability to use them to a advantage.
"Ya, we're from Lazlo... we're here to help you."

I don't think Lazlo would put much faith in the CS actually accepting their help, and would rather try and open up a new front on the FoM guys, and stay clear of the CS, and make sure that them fighting the FoM was as plainly visibile as could be (its what I would do). As for the uncommonness of Aberrant, I don't think its all that uncommon among the upper command structure of the CS, and even then, miscreant doesn't mean stupid, the exchange I described would be my thought of a miscreant or anarchist commander. he expects to be double crossed, but is willing to let them be the ones to shoot first. He isn't about to endanger his mission, but he isn't willing to shoot at those who are shooting at his enemies. As long as the status quo stands, he's willing to let them kill the enemy. The second it changes, he intends to be in a position to wipe them out. There is no trust there, there is no fair play. There is all kinds of self serving, selfish action there, and the willingness and expecation of betrayal. All he's said is that to not attack the enemy until they make a move against the CS. As long as they are not in the way, and killing the enemy, all the better. And if after the battle he has taken the field, he can pursue them, all the better. Of course a smart commander won't press an exhausted and outnumbered force, and so would likely allow everyone to retreat while watching each other guardedly.

[dark brandon]

Oookay.
Now for those who don't think CS troops would shoot their "Lazlo allies", I'd like some rationale.
You're talking about people who are at war with d-bees and magic-users, have been taught all of their lives they're the enemy, and now suddenly they're going to accept the aid of d-bees and magic-users because... why?
Sorry, I'm not seeing the sense.

I believe in human beings.

I had a friend who was racist as hell. Seriously, this guy at one time could have been on the history channel with how much he hated blacks, jews, mexicans. We were friends for years (he never knowing that I was 1/2 mexican). Then one day he gets into a fight with a bunch of Chicanos from the hood. Who saves his butt from being beaten like a red headed step child? 3 black guys. Regardless, while I wouldn't say he's best friends with all black people, and he hasn't completely forgone his racist ways, he's much more tolerant, less beligerant. He's not perfect (no one is), but he no longer tried to force his views on others. He still didn't believe races should date, but, he mostly kept it to himself and he alone dated white girls. When I left el paso, he even had some full Mexican and black friends and had a lot of his tattoos covered up/redone

A little bit of mercy, kindness and generosity can go a long way. I don't think that the next day CS soldiers are going to be bedding up with dbees any time soon, I don't think CS or humans in general are rocks, immovable, unchanging.

[dark brandon]

i thought the cs high comand aproved of the death camps?

I don't know if at first they did, but I know at the end of the war they didn't. In SoT 6, it tells a story of a soldier who's given the task to destory a camp, but instead sets the prisoners free. In the story, you even hear how nearly every soldier in his platoon didn't want to kill all these dbees. So, he sets them free and leaves the camp to be discovered. The guy who set up the camp later comes back and says he's in a whole world of trouble because this soldier didn't destory the camp.

[dark brandon]

I don't think Lazlo would put much faith in the CS actually accepting their help, and would rather try and open up a new front on the FoM guys, and stay clear of the CS, and make sure that them fighting the FoM was as plainly visibile as could be (its what I would do). As for the uncommonness of Aberrant, I don't think its all that uncommon among the upper command structure of the CS, and even then, miscreant doesn't mean stupid, the exchange I described would be my thought of a miscreant or anarchist commander. he expects to be double crossed, but is willing to let them be the ones to shoot first. He isn't about to endanger his mission, but he isn't willing to shoot at those who are shooting at his enemies. As long as the status quo stands, he's willing to let them kill the enemy. The second it changes, he intends to be in a position to wipe them out. There is no trust there, there is no fair play. There is all kinds of self serving, selfish action there, and the willingness and expecation of betrayal. All he's said is that to not attack the enemy until they make a move against the CS. As long as they are not in the way, and killing the enemy, all the better. And if after the battle he has taken the field, he can pursue them, all the better. Of course a smart commander won't press an exhausted and outnumbered force, and so would likely allow everyone to retreat while watching each other guardedly.

An excellent exchange.

An agreed. The cue that brought about the civil war would have done a lot to reveal those generals who are selfish/self-serving and poor leaders vs. those who truely care about his soldiers, the CS and are good leaders.

[taalismn]

A Miscreant or Anarchist commander still might not fire on d-bee troops tearing into his enemies because he's pragmatic enough not to waste his own ammo on the enemy when somebody else is wasting THEIR ammo on the job for him....He might abandon his unexpected allies on the field while he pulls his troops back to a better position, but either way he'll make the best of the opportunity, as long as it serves his position(and not necessarily those of his 'allies')
Of course, once his first enemy is done with, or he has reinforcements arriving, he may consider attacking the weakened survivors....
A STUPID commander would waste and squander the opportunity and attack ernstwhile allies on the battlefield...

[Ravenwing]

Where does it state that Miscreant and Anarchist are the most common alighnments for CS commanders?

I was always under the impression that Aberant, Prince, and unprince were the most common. As per CSWC.

[Vrykolas2k]

Where does it state that Miscreant and Anarchist are the most common alighnments for CS commanders?

I was always under the impression that Aberant, Prince, and unprince were the most common. As per CSWC.

[Vrykolas2k]

Where does it state that Miscreant and Anarchist are the most common alighnments for CS commanders?

I was always under the impression that Aberant, Prince, and unprince were the most common. As per CSWC.

I... see no examples anywhere of a Principled CS commander, and only one Unprincipled, and that one's in Lone Star...
One Unprincipled former officer in Rifts Mercenaries, one Scrupulous...
As for Miscreant and Anarchist, I know I've read that most of the military is of those allignments (probably in the RMB)... you can house-rule some Principled commanders if you wish, I'm just going by canon.

[Ravenwing]

Where does it state that Miscreant and Anarchist are the most common alighnments for CS commanders?

I was always under the impression that Aberant, Prince, and unprince were the most common. As per CSWC.

I... see no examples anywhere of a Principled CS commander, and only one Unprincipled, and that one's in Lone Star...
One Unprincipled former officer in Rifts Mercenaries, one Scrupulous...
As for Miscreant and Anarchist, I know I've read that most of the military is of those allignments (probably in the RMB)... you can house-rule some Principled commanders if you wish, I'm just going by canon.

As per CSWC: Pages 46-49

Average CS Military Personal, 70% Good/Selfish, 30% Evil/Self Serving.

[MikelAmroni]

Re: CS Alignments.

Actually, its a pretty mixed bag. Abberant describes your average patriot who hates who the state says to hate, but goes home and feels good about what he's done - even if that was slaughter d-bee and monster women and children because "they are evil, and would just as soon kill every human as coexist". The miscreant ones don't need convincing that its a "Good Thing"[tm] they just need a more selfish reason - promotion, favors, money, prestige, etc. The Anarchist one may not exactly like the fact he had to kill women and children, even if they were d-bees, but even though it would bother him, he'd do it again - as long as the compensation was enough to drown his conscience. (Hence why anarchist is selfish, and not evil - although it is a tenuous line. The difference is motivation). Diabolic wouldn't give a rat's buttocks either way. He may do it out of loyalty, he may do it because he feels the need to kill something, and it might as well be for the "betterment of mankind." Unprincipled would have to log his dissent with the command, but in the end would obey. Principled and Scrupulous would just sya no, unless there was some sort of REAL threat posed ("they're all plague victims, if we treat them, we'll risk our loved ones getting infected!") It may cause serious issue, and lead to some questions, but in the end, it would have to be massive and personal for them to do it. In all of these examples, I assume a patriot who believes in the CS and its mission, not a dissenter.

The average line soldier would likely end up somwhere between unprincipled and abberant. Your climbers, movers, and shakers would tend towards anarchist or miscreant,and your psychopaths, predictably, are diabolic. The Principled and scrupulous only last in the military if they are never challenged, and that usually means being away from the real problems (being on ISS Patrol in the big cities, being on Rifts containment duty, anywhere the bad guys are Bad Guys [tm], and the state's position is unchallenged. This particular view is established in CS War Campaign, and the Seige on Tolkeen (look at the letters from the CS Soldier to his family), as well as the original essay on the CS Soldier and Citizen in the original RMB.

[MikelAmroni]

As per CSWC: Pages 46-49

Average CS Military Personal, 70% Good/Selfish, 30% Evil/Self Serving.

Huh, I had forgotten it was that high a difference. However, you'd prolly also see that of those 30%, they make up 65% of the higher ranks - or at least that's been my read.

[Ravenwing]

As per CSWC: Pages 46-49

Average CS Military Personal, 70% Good/Selfish, 30% Evil/Self Serving.

Huh, I had forgotten it was that high a difference. However, you'd prolly also see that of those 30%, they make up 65% of the higher ranks - or at least that's been my read.

Actually I'd say no. I agree that most, published npc's are, yes. But thats like only a fraction of the command personal. Think about it. The CS army is based on the US army, thus there are litterally thousands of unnamed command staff. for example.

Each squad has one 2nd lewie.
Each plattoon is lead by a 1st lewie and a 2nd lewie XO.
Four squads min for a platoon, plus command staff of two. thus there is 6 officers in a platoon.

A company is a min of three platoons, plus a Captian, and a 1st Lewie Xo, thus there are 20 officers min per Company.

A Battlion is a min of four companies, plus a Col, and a Lt Col XO, thus there are 62 officers per battlion.

A Brigade is a min of 4 Battlions, plus a Brig General, and a LT. Col, or Major XO, thus there are 246 officers at the Brigade level.

A division is a min of 4 Brigades, plus a Maj General, and a LT, or Brig Gen XO, thus there are 986 officers at the division level.

A Corps is a min of four Divisions, plus a Lewie Gen, and a under Gen XO( this varies wildly amongst the Gens) thus there are. 3938 officers at the Corps level.

A Army is a min of four Corps, plus a Gen( 4 star) and a under Gen XO ( again varies wildly.) Thus there are 15,746 officers at the Army level. As per regular Us Army regulations, and practices.

Of those officers, 70% will be a good, or unprincipiled aligh. 30% will be evil, or anarchist. That means the publish characters, by the numbers are infact the exception, not the norm.

[Vrykolas2k]

Where does it state that Miscreant and Anarchist are the most common alighnments for CS commanders?

I was always under the impression that Aberant, Prince, and unprince were the most common. As per CSWC.

I... see no examples anywhere of a Principled CS commander, and only one Unprincipled, and that one's in Lone Star...
One Unprincipled former officer in Rifts Mercenaries, one Scrupulous...
As for Miscreant and Anarchist, I know I've read that most of the military is of those allignments (probably in the RMB)... you can house-rule some Principled commanders if you wish, I'm just going by canon.

As per CSWC: Pages 46-49

Average CS Military Personal, 70% Good/Selfish, 30% Evil/Self Serving.

That isn't the first time two books contradicted eachother.
According to the RMB, most are Miscreant/Anarchist.

[Ravenwing]

Where does it state that Miscreant and Anarchist are the most common alighnments for CS commanders?

I was always under the impression that Aberant, Prince, and unprince were the most common. As per CSWC.

I... see no examples anywhere of a Principled CS commander, and only one Unprincipled, and that one's in Lone Star...
One Unprincipled former officer in Rifts Mercenaries, one Scrupulous...
As for Miscreant and Anarchist, I know I've read that most of the military is of those allignments (probably in the RMB)... you can house-rule some Principled commanders if you wish, I'm just going by canon.

As per CSWC: Pages 46-49

Average CS Military Personal, 70% Good/Selfish, 30% Evil/Self Serving.

That isn't the first time two books contradicted eachother.
According to the RMB, most are Miscreant/Anarchist.

True, however, the 70/30 split is also mentioned in the old SB1. Almost the exact same text to boot. Further this as the CS has been listed in most of the books. Even RUE mentions it.


All the mention in RMB is also along the same lines of the 70/30 split. The end of the book has some quick roll stats for a typical cs grunt, but even these under aligh say "Any, If a villian Anarchist or evil" Direct quote PG number 257.
Pg 49 even mentions that its just Prosek and his Advisors that are evil.


Pg 42 Direct words of the book text

"Coalition Soldiers as player characters
As I hope I have pointed out, the Coalition soldier is not innately
evil and can make an exciting and fun addition to any group of players.
The soldier can freely associate with characters who might otherwise
be considered criminals of the State, if he or she is assigned to reconnaissance,
spying, observation, or exploration of the wilderness and
wastelands."


There is no mention that I have found anywhere in RUE/RMB that states the CS military is any more evil, then anyone else. Furthermore all the Text in both books, only further supports the percentages listed in CSWC. The CS largely is not of a evil aligh.

[Talavar]

Just a note - sometimes writers for Palladium don't understand its own alignment system. I think the most glaring example of this is a goddess from Dragons & Gods, who killed her own husband over a white lie, yet is somehow Principled - that's practically a textbook definition of aberrant right there.

As to that 70/30 split, it's kind of funny to me - they're presented on opposite sides of that split, but what's the difference between selfish and self-serving? I would say the vast majority of CS citizens, army included, would be unprincipled or anarchist, with aberrant, miscreant, scrupulous, diabolic and principled following in about that order.

[csbioborg]

Just a note - sometimes writers for Palladium don't understand its own alignment system. I think the most glaring example of this is a goddess from Dragons & Gods, who killed her own husband over a white lie, yet is somehow Principled - that's practically a textbook definition of aberrant right there.

As to that 70/30 split, it's kind of funny to me - they're presented on opposite sides of that split, but what's the difference between selfish and self-serving? I would say the vast majority of CS citizens, army included, would be unprincipled or anarchist, with aberrant, miscreant, scrupulous, diabolic and principled following in about that order.

that is Ruraga i think. Then there are a lot of gods especailly Incan and Mayan that are unprincipled and Anatchist whose followers practice human sacrfice in there name

I think they wanted to be politically correct and not call native American gods evil

[csbioborg]

Just a note - sometimes writers for Palladium don't understand its own alignment system. I think the most glaring example of this is a goddess from Dragons & Gods, who killed her own husband over a white lie, yet is somehow Principled - that's practically a textbook definition of aberrant right there.

As to that 70/30 split, it's kind of funny to me - they're presented on opposite sides of that split, but what's the difference between selfish and self-serving? I would say the vast majority of CS citizens, army included, would be unprincipled or anarchist, with aberrant, miscreant, scrupulous, diabolic and principled following in about that order.

that is Ruraga i think. Then there are a lot of gods especailly Incan and Mayan that are unprincipled and Anatchist whose followers practice human sacrfice in there name

I think they wanted to be politically correct and not call native American gods evil

[dark brandon]

Just a note - sometimes writers for Palladium don't understand its own alignment system. I think the most glaring example of this is a goddess from Dragons & Gods, who killed her own husband over a white lie, yet is somehow Principled - that's practically a textbook definition of aberrant right there.

As to that 70/30 split, it's kind of funny to me - they're presented on opposite sides of that split, but what's the difference between selfish and self-serving? I would say the vast majority of CS citizens, army included, would be unprincipled or anarchist, with aberrant, miscreant, scrupulous, diabolic and principled following in about that order.

that is Ruraga i think. Then there are a lot of gods especailly Incan and Mayan that are unprincipled and Anatchist whose followers practice human sacrfice in there name

I think they wanted to be politically correct and not call native American gods evil

Not completely. You should look at the alignments on how they are Now, not were. Things, even gods alignments can change over time.

[Ravenwing]

Personally, my group has never liked the palladium aligh system.

[Vrykolas2k]

Just a note - sometimes writers for Palladium don't understand its own alignment system. I think the most glaring example of this is a goddess from Dragons & Gods, who killed her own husband over a white lie, yet is somehow Principled - that's practically a textbook definition of aberrant right there.

As to that 70/30 split, it's kind of funny to me - they're presented on opposite sides of that split, but what's the difference between selfish and self-serving? I would say the vast majority of CS citizens, army included, would be unprincipled or anarchist, with aberrant, miscreant, scrupulous, diabolic and principled following in about that order.

that is Ruraga i think. Then there are a lot of gods especailly Incan and Mayan that are unprincipled and Anatchist whose followers practice human sacrfice in there name

I think they wanted to be politically correct and not call native American gods evil

Yes, it's Rurga... a study in the extreme end of Principled.
As for the Aztec gods' allignments... well, human sacrifice isn't innately evil. They sacrificed their enemies, criminals, and those who were willing to be.
My own celtic ancestors did pretty much the same thing.

[taalismn]

You stare at ANY alignment long enough and you can come up with an example that can prove even the saintliest being evil...
Most people routinely eat meat, but we don't consider ourselves evil...yet an uber-extremist vegetarian would consider us carnivores to be Miscreant or Aberrant, stuffing our faces with the result of murder to satisfy our own needs first...(and a vegetable alien extremist might call that ubervegan a hypocrite for slaughtering acres of innocent cabbage and oats...)

[Talavar]

Just a note - sometimes writers for Palladium don't understand its own alignment system. I think the most glaring example of this is a goddess from Dragons & Gods, who killed her own husband over a white lie, yet is somehow Principled - that's practically a textbook definition of aberrant right there.

As to that 70/30 split, it's kind of funny to me - they're presented on opposite sides of that split, but what's the difference between selfish and self-serving? I would say the vast majority of CS citizens, army included, would be unprincipled or anarchist, with aberrant, miscreant, scrupulous, diabolic and principled following in about that order.

that is Ruraga i think. Then there are a lot of gods especailly Incan and Mayan that are unprincipled and Anatchist whose followers practice human sacrfice in there name

I think they wanted to be politically correct and not call native American gods evil

Yes, it's Rurga... a study in the extreme end of Principled.
As for the Aztec gods' allignments... well, human sacrifice isn't innately evil. They sacrificed their enemies, criminals, and those who were willing to be.
My own celtic ancestors did pretty much the same thing.

Killing someone over a white lie isn't the extreme end of Principled though - it's aberrant outright. We've got punishing disloyalty (of a sort) with swift, merciful death, and the letter of the "law" being more important than the intent behind it. A major tenant of Principled is having the "highest regard for the lives and well-being of others," something that is completed voided by punishing a lie with death. Rurga, as written, is basically lawful neutral under the D&D system of doing things - and that doesn't line up with Principled. Even a Principled person will break the law when necessary - good to them is always more important the rules.

I've got no problem with a selfish god accepting human sacrifice.

You stare at ANY alignment long enough and you can come up with an example that can prove even the saintliest being evil...
Most people routinely eat meat, but we don't consider ourselves evil...yet an uber-extremist vegetarian would consider us carnivores to be Miscreant or Aberrant, stuffing our faces with the result of murder to satisfy our own needs first...(and a vegetable alien extremist might call that ubervegan a hypocrite for slaughtering acres of innocent cabbage and oats...)

I've had this argument before on these boards, and that's moral relativism. Moral relativism has no place in Rifts, for a number of reasons (existence of supernatural evil & good, the ability to sense evil, etc.). Killing non-sapient lifeforms for food isn't murder in Rifts (and I don't think the real world either - or every carnivore and omnivore is evil, but that's another topic), so an uber-extremist vegetarian who considered meat eaters evil - in Rifts - would probably be aberrant (they have a code of ethics, but one that's twisted). Same deal with the vegetable alien extremist.