Religion in Rifts

[GlitterKnight]

Which is an interesting question I didn't go into; does the cross only work on Earth and it's alternatives, or all over the Megaverse? And it doesn't work only for humans, right? D Bees on Earth use it against vampires. Even Lord Coake has a nice cross he wears, and he's from the Palladium world. So does that mean Jesus saved all sentient beings?
And does a willing self sacrifice, at least of a supernatural being, increase the power of that sacrifice? So if a supernatural being sacrificed itself willingly to be forged into a Rune weapon, would it automatically make a greater weapon, no matter the being's original power level?
The Sovietski are a cool and somewhat underdone part of WB 17 (I mean, they're on the cover but it's mostly about the warlords), but we must remember that the old Soviet Union did fall in the Golden Age of Rifts Earth. The Sovietski were a new expirement in a reformed communism when the world ended, and they survived in a demon infested land for 300 years. In modern Russia, the Communists hold a large power bloc, though they're not in charge any more, and Russia has enthusiastically renewed its ties with the Russian Orthodox Church. So perhaps the Sovietski have an ingrained tolerance towards the church, and have come to rely on it to a degree for completely practical reasons; blessings, holy water and holy symbols and relics do work against a large number of demons and entities. Even the most secular party member of the Sovietski has to admit it's helpful to have the bearded dudes in cassocks around when your dealing with supernatural stuff. The CS has the ability I think to do away with any religious trappings they don't like. If they need to slay, stop or ferret out demons, they've got Dog Boys and Psi Stalkers, and stuff like the Blue Sensors from the Rifter 40-41 adventure. They're looking to solve problems with science and know how, not trading one supernatural extradimensional problem for another. But I recall from WB 30, one of the D Bee races, I forget which one, I think they're the anteater looking ones, have mostly converted to Christianity and copy human society. This, it said, angered human supremacists, and I think the CS is mentioned there, for trying to copy humans and infiltrate humanity by adopting a "human religion". That could be construed solely as human supremacists disliking a D Bee "acting human" and assimilating into human society, or it could be seen as a condemnation of inhuman demons trying defiling their religion. I think you can see it either way.
Something I was curious about though; if the Sovietski have churchmen and Christianity, who reveres the Russian pantheon from the Rifter article? Do the warlords each have their own preference and support and oppress one or the other? I think Romanov probably backs the Russian Church, if she wants to reastablish the Romanov dynasty, I think she'd want the church's blessing. Maybe the people have gone back to a folk personal tradition while still attending church. They revere the gods and spirits for help with temporal things, and attend church for the salvation of their souls, and for it's protection against darker things.
I should wonder about the CS in a similar situation. If they do want to protect human culture from D Bees depsoiling it, one assumes they'd create their own party line for what is acceptable, a state backed orthodoxy. I could easily see chaplains in Dead Boy armor blessing the troops before battle. In addition, I'm sure they'd train a lot of fire and brimestone preachers. They want people to be afraid of D Bees, demons, monsters and mages, and a certain interpretation of Christianity gives ample oppurtunity for that. "Fight the minions of Lucifer, suffer not the witch to live!" But the problem I do see for that is that the CS elite are all self obsessed, racist, megalomaniacal monsters. I don't think they could ever bring themselves to bend knee at services, and could only at best mouth a public piety. The ignorant people of the CS, especially those who live away from the cities would depend on their church and priest to help protect them. Priests have always been regarded as a font of knowledge and wisdom, especially in rural areas where few are educated, but the priest was usually educated to some degree. If the CS did embrace any religious tradition to further its aims, it would be very controlled, state run one. If the priests are allowed to be literate they have to be loyal to the ideology as well. A possible source of conflict for communities who join the CS; have their churches closed down and the priests arrested so CS chaplains can come in and start preaching their version. One more bit of evidence of the CS trampling their people's freedom. But again; if people flock to the priests and the church to protect them from the terrors in the darkness, even if their certified priests and state run churches, it still sets up another power to rival the Coalition and the Emperor; God. He is the king of kings, the lord of hosts. Does not even the emperor bow before God's might? That's what the people might think, but the elite I think would have very different ideas. They might view it as a threat to their order. They, I believe, would clinically examine it with their world view in which magic, supernatural beings and anything not of Earth are evils to be destroyed. They would examine Abrahamic religion, look at the contemporaries of ancient Judaism, and how they became demons in Christian tradition, and detach themselves from it. They would view Jehovah as just one more petty godling of awful power and turn against His religion and followers, denouncing them as traitors and pawns of demons.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Which is an interesting question I didn't go into; 1 does the cross only work on Earth and it's alternatives, or all over the Megaverse? 2 And it doesn't work only for humans, right? D Bees on Earth use it against vampires. Even Lord Coake has a nice cross he wears, and he's from the Palladium world. 3 So does that mean Jesus saved all sentient beings?
4 And does a willing self sacrifice, at least of a supernatural being, increase the power of that sacrifice? 5 So if a supernatural being sacrificed itself willingly to be forged into a Rune weapon, would it automatically make a greater weapon, no matter the being's original power level?

...snip

1 up to the GM
2 the cross against vampiers works for all people, even non-belivers.
3 the term is 'saves' present tense, only saves those that accept him as their God.
3.1 sentients are people, even if they were not born on earth
4 yes, but not sacrifice is of life.
5 same as #1, it would make the resultent rune something the same alinment as the SNE used
idea #1: it might just give the god the form of a 'rune item' w/o changing any powers, mine or other things. just making it really hard to kill said SNE. like it just has a new body made of metal, errr, indestrucible metal/stone.
idea #2: if a caldron of destruction is used on a rune something, it just releses the bindings, and does not destroy the SNE also. Thus the SNE's panthion can revive such being relitively easily.

[Library Ogre]

(B) historically speaking, death by crucifixion is the worst way to be put to death both in pain and agony, but in shame and the public nature of the sentence. For while it was a death sentence of horrible nature, it was also a warning to the population. Much like the head/body on the spike over a castle gate was a warning in europe. Said major deity did seek said execution to protect his followers.

Blood eagle.
Or, having your intestines pulled out, nailed to a pole, then making you walk in a circle around that pole, pulling out your own intestines as you walk.

[GlitterKnight]

Excellent points killgore.

Indeed, but how do they make you walk around the pole?

And I've always thought the best kind of horrible torture for a vampire would be a Vlad Tepesch style impaling; big wooden stake through the rectum, through the intestines and chest cavity, get close to the heart but dont pierce it, and have it exit up their necks and through their mouths. That will be one unhappy vampire.

A problem I've noted in non enchanted wooden weapons would be that the vampires could just sunder them easily; a sword of wood will break pretty easily. Wood, as far as I know, doesn't burn vampires on contact like silver and water. So even a wooden palisade or walls is of little use against them; they just punch their way through. Oh, just thought of something; it would hurt them. They have only health points, which means they would be SDC if they had any. Their supernatural strength doesn't injure them because they're generally invulnerable to anything they'd hit. But wooden things would break their knuckles and stuff, or at least fill them with splinters. Splinters must really kill a vampire; it burns and it won't come out.

My favorite idea for an anti vampire weapon. A giant sledge, built for giants, borgs, power armor, what have you. It's all Ironwood enchanted wood, and the faces of the hammer head are carved with short spikes on both sides. It's an enchanted weapon that, when you strike a vampire with it, will inject one of the spikes as a stake into the vampires heart, whichever one is closest. The hammerhead is massive, size of a barrel, so as long as you hit them in the chest, one of the spike stakes has a high likelihood of detaching.

[drewkitty ~..~]

*adding in the words "one of" between the words "is" and "worst" in my last post*

[Talavar]

The idea that gods are ominpotent is not one found in all religions, so I think Rifts' gods easily qualify. Most, if so inclined, can heal the sick, raise the dead, and provide miracles through their priests.

[glitterboy2098]

(B) historically speaking, death by crucifixion is the worst way to be put to death both in pain and agony, but in shame and the public nature of the sentence. For while it was a death sentence of horrible nature, it was also a warning to the population. Much like the head/body on the spike over a castle gate was a warning in europe. Said major deity did seek said execution to protect his followers.

Blood eagle.
Or, having your intestines pulled out, nailed to a pole, then making you walk in a circle around that pole, pulling out your own intestines as you walk.

actually, the blood eagle was when they cut open your still living chest and pulled your ribcage open till it resembled a pair of birds wings. usually by that point you were dead.

[Library Ogre]

(B) historically speaking, death by crucifixion is the worst way to be put to death both in pain and agony, but in shame and the public nature of the sentence. For while it was a death sentence of horrible nature, it was also a warning to the population. Much like the head/body on the spike over a castle gate was a warning in europe. Said major deity did seek said execution to protect his followers.

Blood eagle.
Or, having your intestines pulled out, nailed to a pole, then making you walk in a circle around that pole, pulling out your own intestines as you walk.

actually, the blood eagle was when they cut open your still living chest and pulled your ribcage open till it resembled a pair of birds wings. usually by that point you were dead.

I was referring to two different forms of punishment; the second was, IIRC, inflicted on King Ella of (Mercia? Northumbria?) by the Rangarssons after the Battle of York.

[ZorValachan]

About the CS. If there was some common 'CS religion', Karl and Joseph II would be actively (if secretly) discouraging and dismantling it. They want to be seen as the saviors of the human race. A cult of Personality, Augustus style. I can easily see Karl dying and Joey establishing him as a god and thus himself 'Divi Filius'. The CS government hates magic and the supernatural and could even say to worshipers of Christ, "Where was the Rapture when the apocalypse came?, The 1000 years of heaven on Earth? No, we are your protectors, your salvation. trust in the Emperor" or such.

[dark brandon]

A fool fixes his own mistakes. A wise man fixes the mistakes of fools.

i love this. im gonna quate it.

...but this is such a bad quote...because if you do this, you're not solving underlying problem...the wise man is going to spend ALL his time fixing problems other people made and are making and the fool will simply continue to make mistakes. Do not be taken in brothers! Do not let this become your law!

A fool fixes the mistakes of others. A wise man fixes a fool.

[Misfit KotLD]

A fool fixes his own mistakes. A wise man fixes the mistakes of fools.

i love this. im gonna quate it.

...but this is such a bad quote...because if you do this, you're not solving underlying problem...the wise man is going to spend ALL his time fixing problems other people made and are making and the fool will simply continue to make mistakes. Do not be taken in brothers! Do not let this become your law!

A fool fixes the mistakes of others. A wise man fixes a fool.

A fool can only be fixed by himself.

[dark brandon]

A fool fixes his own mistakes. A wise man fixes the mistakes of fools.

i love this. im gonna quate it.

...but this is such a bad quote...because if you do this, you're not solving underlying problem...the wise man is going to spend ALL his time fixing problems other people made and are making and the fool will simply continue to make mistakes. Do not be taken in brothers! Do not let this become your law!

A fool fixes the mistakes of others. A wise man fixes a fool.

A fool can only be fixed by himself.

If a fool could fix himself, he wouldn't be a fool to begin with.

[Library Ogre]

A fool can only be fixed by himself.

Bolt cutters will fix a lot of fools... though ya gotta get 'em to pass out, first.

[drewkitty ~..~]

A fool can only be fixed by himself.

Bolt cutters will fix a lot of fools... though ya gotta get 'em to pass out, first.

Wouldn't it be more humane to call the vet to do that?

[Library Ogre]

A fool can only be fixed by himself.

Bolt cutters will fix a lot of fools... though ya gotta get 'em to pass out, first.

Wouldn't it be more humane to call the vet to do that?

A good number of fools only learn from pain.

[londonbaz]

i think the CS are laregely athiest and crack down on relelgious groups. including christians, jews and muslims. i do know the new sovietski allows catholic priests.

...which doesn't really make sense, in my opinion. If anything, they should be derivatives of orthodox.

Warlords actually mentions the "Orthodox Catholic Faith", so I think its more of a mis-naming of the O.C.C. than anything else - a lot of Catholic schism churches still refer to themselves as Catholic - even the Anglican Communion considers themselves "Catholic" to a certain extent, just not "Roman Catholic".

[The Galactus Kid]

i think the CS are laregely athiest and crack down on relelgious groups. including christians, jews and muslims. i do know the new sovietski allows catholic priests.

...which doesn't really make sense, in my opinion. If anything, they should be derivatives of orthodox.

Warlords actually mentions the "Orthodox Catholic Faith", so I think its more of a mis-naming of the O.C.C. than anything else - a lot of Catholic schism churches still refer to themselves as Catholic - even the Anglican Communion considers themselves "Catholic" to a certain extent, just not "Roman Catholic".

Yeah, I'm methodist and we believe in the "Holy Catholic Church" according to the apostles creed. My point with Russia is that their form of Orthodox Christianity isn't Catholic at all, but rather byzantine. I just think its a misnomer and I'm not going to raise a stink about it. I'll just change it to reflect history in my games. Thanks for the input baz.

[GlitterKnight]

It does seem a minor error, if it is one. But the thing is, it might not be an error; we don't know. Maybe the Roman Catholics have become the dominant tradition in Russia since the Cataclysm; we don't know.

[tmikesecrist3]

heres a question that is sort of on topic but if its not you can move it just let me know where to lol...

this is for a chaos earth game but could easyly apply to rifts as well, I am plaing a Bts 1st addion arcanest mage, based on my understanding of duidic training. so nateraly he warships the old celtic gods, and goddess, porblem.... there are onely 3 of them in the books so far, thay are all in rifts england. and all gods.... so how do I find the outhers, and I am not above useing equvalent gods/esses form outher pantions or modafying them slightly. any sujestions?

[CushionRide]

lol great this topic reminds me of one of my most favorite charachters ^_^

Brother Gilbert a burster/Fire and Brimstone preacher. i fudged a little bit and combined the burster class with a preacher OCC out of the new west book ^_^ the idea was that the charachter didnt actually know he was a psychic charachter in order to use his powers he had to literally pray in order to do something lol

it was hilarious. especially when you rp it in front of the whole gaming group. your friends tend to wonder if your stoned lol

[Ravenwing]

I've always played the CS as a highly religous state. A judeo-christian one at that. Afterall it fits well with the whole human supremist ideal. God gave mankind the earth and dominon over it. Thus there are Chaplians within the CS army and navy. As well as religious leaders, who have given their support of the prosek family, thus it's "Divinely backed" if you will. Now this isn't the same faith we know today. They've added to, and tweeked things to their way of thinking. But still, it's sort of their basis for everything. What holds them together, even more then the Proseks.

[tmikesecrist3]

as for holy symbes me and outher gms I have played with have alowed just about any symebe reprsenting a good god, like a star of daved, or a druids pentacale and the cressent moon

[Misfit KotLD]

Fragmented or oddly reconstructed religions would abound. Look how many denizens of North America think pre-Rifts fictional characters were real people. My group recently went after vampires near Carlsbad, NM, and the local religion was a mix of Christianity and Egyptian mythology...they worshipped Jesus Christ Osiris and Mary Magdalene Isis. That's the kind of thing that can happen when you base your religion on someone's eclectic religious library.

Considering the Madonna is based on or parallels images of Isis with Horus, you're not too far off.

About crosses, in regards to the undead they are more than just one religion's holy symbol. They are the only holy symbol most people are familiar with that is a symbol of true resurrection, eternal life, opposing the false resurrection and pseudo-life of the undead. I am only culturally Christian myself, and know the whole thing started with priests telling their followers the church can protect them from vampires and fairies and whatnot. In a setting where vampires and gods and magic exist, however, you can certainly justify a special role for the cross as a weapon against vampires. As for the metagame reason for this, it's because that's how it works in the movies.

My question is how is it a religion that's oddly absent in Rifts has such a profound effect on vampires.

[Misfit KotLD]

Care to address my other point, aside from the fact that the cross is now synonymous with Christianity.

[tmikesecrist3]

the reasion holy symbles work is as explaidn by some of my gms. is one the fath in what the sypel reprsents to you... and to the god it represents gives it power as hes/her symble

but still form my understanding of the occout a cross unless it is a brigits cross or a celtic cruss would be as uselys for me a druid in warding off a vampire, as a vantins card

[Misfit KotLD]

Thanks, Doc. While I don't agree with it, I like that you've addressed it. It looks to be a very workable solution.

[tmikesecrist3]

doc I think your right on with your alternet.... I tryed but could not seem to put what I was thinking in words when I sead something a bout faith.... faith is a vary powerful force and it is what makes magic posable... or sure the energy is there but with out faith it can not be used... its like haveing lamp with out a cord... there electsaty but know way to use it