Dumping Full Plate Armor

[GA]

With the exception of the occasional jousting tournament and perhaps special OCCs (Jannissaries come to mind) and field battles-where it would be worn almost exclusively by heavy cavalry....I would think making plate armor unavailable to most players would make a lot of sense for a few reasons:

1). Realistically, full plate is impractical to wear on a day to day basis. Can you imagine the athlete's foot you would have?

2) In terms of game mechanics, full plate really screws up AR rolls. One has to wonder if penetrating AR would even be an issue if plate didn't exist. It isn't hard to imagine leather, or even chainmail, either being pierced or deflecting a blow, but it is harder to imagine plate being pierced and hence the AR penetratrion discussions. Yes it can be (it obviously has chinks and joints that are vulnerable and a powerful blow with a sturdy weapon can rent the armor) but it does lend itself to controversy when something like knives and arrows are used against it.

3) It has (Or should have) an encumbrance penalty when wearing it. This goes back to reason #1.

4.) Prowling should be impossible in it. In fact one has to think you would announce your presence with every step you took. Now if there was a skill to wear heavy armor it could negate this, but no such skill exists. I do realize there is a heavy penalty for attempting to prowl in plate but I am thinking it might not be high enough.

5.) Moving in full plate is pretty difficult and its a lot harder to defend yourself. Not to mention if wearing a helmet your vision is obscured partially. However I don't think any combat penalties are applied to wearing plate armor. I would think all bonuses including initiative would be hampered wearing that tin can.

It seems getting rid of plate armor for most purposes (or at least full plate armor and sticking to perhaps half plate) would solve problems regarding AR, prowl and make games seem more realistic with adventurers being able to move much more freely and also bring game mechanics more in line. If full plate was around i think a seperate skill (Call it Full Plate Armour skill) should apply to performing maneuvers in it and I would probably only make it available to soldiers and knights and (possibly) elite mercenary groups.

[Hotrod]

I find it ironic that while we discuss the drawbacks and limitations of heavy armor, American soldiers are strapping on heavier armor than they've ever worn before, including plates. I hear they're even starting to field leg armor.

Our IBA, with its plates, side plates, groin protector, throat guard, first aid/ammo pouches, and deltoid protective sleeves, probably weighs about 50 pounds, and we wear this stuff outside the wire all the time, even in the heat.

It's not comfortable, our mobility is impeded (though not as terribly as some would think, and our endurance while running and doing other strenuous activity is decreased. But it can be worn all day. I've done it.

Would we be this impeded wearing old-style plate and chain armor? I think not. That stuff was made to fight hand-to-hand in, whereas our stuff is made to stop or slow down bullets and fragmentation so they don't kill us.

Any re-enacters out there who've actually worn the stuff want to speak up? I've seen some demonstrations, and the guys hacking away at each other didn't seem to be slowed by their armor. Of course, they didn't hack at each other all day long either, but even in the long, pitched battles of yore, I doubt that the soldiers were in continuous physical combat for more than 15 minutes at a time.

I've heard of knights wearing their armor all day long as part of their training and conditioning, and I know of several crusader sieges where the knights wore their armor day and night. If a character can afford to buy and maintain his armor, I don't see why he or she couldn't wear it all day, every day. I just don't think that most characters would want to.

[Natalya]

To be honest, it's never come up in my game. Even though the characters have the gold, they've never really gone beyond studded leather. The few that considered ringmail and chainmail decided not to after hearing the prowl/climb/swim penalties.

I think at first I simply didn't offer it in the shops since it'd be above a village or small town blacksmith (it's been a long time), but now it seems to be habit.

I am eagerly reading everyone's ideas though, in case heavier armors do come up in my game. I need ideas, please.

[Hotrod]

He did, courtesy of the easy-access removable codpiece (TM).

[Library Ogre]

I think armor becomes a lot more used when it becomes a straight damage reduction system (as in the weapons series), as opposed to a reduction-through-hit-reducer.

[J. Lionheart]

Full plate armor isn't something that could be "bought off the rack" in the days it was in practical use. Every suit was custom built, no exceptions. These days, it's easy enough to pick up a suit of armor in generic sizes, but they're really meant for display, not long usage. There are armorers that make suits for usage still, and those are custom fitted and built to spec just as they've always been.

A properly fitted suit of plate armor is a heavy thing, yes, but it hardly impedes movement the way some people think. With a little practice, you can still run, jump, cartwheel, somersault, and get up from the ground without any particular impediment. You can fight full speed, and vision is only as restricted as you have the helm styled (sometimes very much, sometimes hardly at all). In terms of weight, it doesn't weigh any more than my hiking pack, which I can wear without issue at all times except sleep, for a week straight. Also, that weight was spread over the entire body, supported through a complex series of straps and adjustments, as opposed to being all on just the waist, chest, and shoulders like a backpack. Not smart to swim in, but really not enough to fatigue you excessively with regular use.

Now, I don't have my own gothic plate armor to speak about from experience, but I do have a Roman-style Lorica Segmentata half-plate. That thing was rack purchased in a generic size, so doesn't fit me perfectly. Even so, once it is properly attached, it really doesn't impede my movement, or make any noise (unless I bump in to things). It can start to chafe easily, due to not being properly fitted, but if I wear the right clothing under it, that is not a problem. The biggest issue is the need for a second person to help put it on properly and ensure all the straps are adjusted. It can be done by myself, but it's difficult.

So... while I agree that full plate has disadvantages (heavy for swimming and climbing, possible vision issues), I don't think it is anywhere near as big an issue as it's being made out to be (perfectly fine for long wear, strenuous activity, and generic mobility). Also, a person who knows what they're doing will have very minor to moderate prowl issues, not absolute impossibility. I'd give a larger prowl penalty to full chain than to plate, as the chain portion is what makes the most noise, unless you smack in to something. People can, and did, sneak around in plate armor.

[RockJock]

There was a really good show on the History Channel which worked through the pros and cons of plate armor vs different weapons available to the rift raft.

[J. Lionheart]

Indeed there was. I believe that was an episode of "Conquest" where they did that, and it was most informative.

[RockJock]

It was Conquest. I couldn't remember the name of the show.

They used pole axe, swords, ax, mace, morning star and such in different tactics. Fighting both mounted and unmounted armored knights if I recall, both in the open, and in forests.

[RockJock]

The History Channel. It is hosted by the bald guy who played the technomage on that Bablyon 5 spin off.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

Ihave found that untill the players can offord, weightless and noiseless, the plate armour does not become a factor except in times of great battle.

[Library Ogre]

For really fun armor:

Weightless
Noiseless
Regenerating (page 158 of Western Empire)
Something else (Extra AR is great, especially if you're using already enhanced plate)

The total cost is somewhat obscene... 237,000 if you're getting top-of-the-line, enhanced dwarven plate, with extra SDC, extra AR, that is weightless and noiseless. 210 SDC, 18 AR, and it regenerates 10 SDC per hour. Personally, I'd drop the noiseless and take Impervious to Fire (same cost)... you're not likely to be wearing this armor if your concern is stealth, but some resistance to magical fire is always nice to have.

[Natasha]

Edit your post and make the IMG into URL then.

[Cinos]

Agreed on many terms, generally, I only see Knights, Paladins, and at times, Soldiers wearing it, and even they often choose to only do so in some situations, often owning a lighter suit of Chain or Scale Mail when mobility is demanded.

1). Very true, but I also think that people in PF (or any fantasy setting) are very used to a massive amount of discomfort (these being the days of a chamber pot, I don't think a burning foot is going to be the deal breaker when choosing on weather or not you want to risk being stabbed).

2). I think Full Plates A.R is too low in it's cannon Showing, and that it should exceed 20, landing around 24-28 (thus requiring an attacker to have both a good roll, and a good strike bonus), as well as a 100% - 200% increase to it's S.D.C to give it a greater durability to reflect it's status (Continued in 3). In terms of your comment about using a Knife to penetrate armor, they are generally the best weapon (short of a Pick Hammer or similar spiked weapon), as they are the most suited to strike in the small unprotected areas of heavy armor.

3). I do think cannon Plate Armor should come with a minus to Dodge, Maintain Balance and Initiative (something along the lines of 4, 6 and 2 Respectively), the Prowl penalties are pretty sizable as is (-40% for Wearing it and -15% from the weight if I understand, making it out to be -55%, enough to reduce most people to 0%), but could understand a higher, closer to the -75% area. But do keep in mind, the wearers do suffer a -50% to their Spd in cannon.

4). Covered the response to that in 3.

5). Agreed (and covered mostly in 3), and a penalties from a helm should be a sizable -6 to -10 to Perception from most Full Helms and Basents, with a smaller -1 to -3 for open faced helms.

While I agree a re-balance and re-thinking of Plate armor is a good thing, getting rid of it is a very bad idea. Core of gaming comes from offering more choices, not taking things away, nor does armor take a great deal of skill to wear and preform basic maneuvers while inside (An uncle of mine is a re creationist, and being a spindly gamer kid at the time, I did not have a great deal of trouble suiting up, nor preforming basic tasks, though it was exhausting after a bit). In my brewed rules, I even have things set up to allow mix and matching of armor (i.e a Chain Mail Tunic, with a Studded Leather Leggings and Soft Leather arm guards with a Plate styled Helm), for a greater degree of realism.

[Lord Malachdrim]

The main thing to remember about Palladium Armours is that their stats are unchanged from the 1st edition of the game. 1st Palladium did not have nearly as many bonuses to your to-hit roll. And most things couldn't take near as much damage as they can now (no SDC for creatures).

[Library Ogre]

I have a quickie version of the RF system that I use.

Take an armor's normal AR and subtract 4. That's its RF. If you score a critical hit, you have a choice between double damage or ignoring armor (if your critical is normally triple damage, your choice is between triple damage or double damage and ignoring armor).

This system isn't as nuanced as CWA&C's weapon type RFs, but it's easier to adapt to a wide variety of creatures (and makes Kankoran kinda frightening, since they shrug off 2 points of damage from all attacks).

[Jerell]

I find it ironic that while we discuss the drawbacks and limitations of heavy armor, American soldiers are strapping on heavier armor than they've ever worn before, including plates. I hear they're even starting to field leg armor.

Our IBA, with its plates, side plates, groin protector, throat guard, first aid/ammo pouches, and deltoid protective sleeves, probably weighs about 50 pounds, and we wear this stuff outside the wire all the time, even in the heat.

It's not comfortable, our mobility is impeded (though not as terribly as some would think, and our endurance while running and doing other strenuous activity is decreased. But it can be worn all day. I've done it.

Would we be this impeded wearing old-style plate and chain armor? I think not. That stuff was made to fight hand-to-hand in, whereas our stuff is made to stop or slow down bullets and fragmentation so they don't kill us.

Any re-enacters out there who've actually worn the stuff want to speak up? I've seen some demonstrations, and the guys hacking away at each other didn't seem to be slowed by their armor. Of course, they didn't hack at each other all day long either, but even in the long, pitched battles of yore, I doubt that the soldiers were in continuous physical combat for more than 15 minutes at a time.

I've heard of knights wearing their armor all day long as part of their training and conditioning, and I know of several crusader sieges where the knights wore their armor day and night. If a character can afford to buy and maintain his armor, I don't see why he or she couldn't wear it all day, every day. I just don't think that most characters would want to.

- yep, I agree completely.

Let me confirm, I'm about to finish my tour in Iraq here in about 2 weeks... My fully loaded, medium size IBA with the latest plates, is indeed about 48 pounds the last I checked (before I left the states, prior to boarding a C-5, I don't have leg armor). While I don't like wearing it all day, it can, and did happen to me, thought not often to me, but a lot of the other guys have to wear it all day all the time. I would find time to rest and loosen it by undoing the front. 15 rest like that did wonders for me. The problem I have with it, is that in order for the weight to be taken off my shoulders, it has to be fastened tight around the chest, at least the lower chest, which makes it harder to breath deeply, say after running. The armor can be worn for long periods of time, it does get stinky however, but you can clean it. I've worn my IBA in 130+ degrees farhenheit in Kuwait and over 120 F in Iraq, many of the locals think we take pills that keep us cool while wearing our IBA (I've done nothing to dispell that rumor, Let them think we're super men, but if only they knew the truth! We just drink a ton of water and try to stay in the shade when possible... lol). The main thing I notice when wearing IBA is, i tire while running quicker, I get hotter quickers, and I don't jump as high.

Heavy armor can definently be worn all day, thought I doubt anywould want to unless they were expecting a threat to their life at some point. Some days I left it on all day only because I didn't want to deal with taking it off and on all the time. But I much prefer not to wear it when practicle.

I hear war hammers are quite effective against plate armor... I sometimes naturally give the warhammers and horseman's hammers the ability to count AR as only half in some of my campaigns I've run. Seemed to work fairly well. So when my players thought they would be facing guys in plate on foot, they started carring warhammers, which I thought was appropriate.

I have no problem with the plate armor as written, in fact I usually increase the AR on the half suits to nearly match that of the full suits. I just have it that if you're wearing a half suit of something, whatever's not protected can be hit on a called shot with no armor and that works well enough for my group.

[Damian Magecraft]

I have a quickie version of the RF system that I use.

Take an armor's normal AR and subtract 4. That's its RF. If you score a critical hit, you have a choice between double damage or ignoring armor (if your critical is normally triple damage, your choice is between triple damage or double damage and ignoring armor).

This system isn't as nuanced as CWA&C's weapon type RFs, but it's easier to adapt to a wide variety of creatures (and makes Kankoran kinda frightening, since they shrug off 2 points of damage from all attacks).

i think i am missing something here...
how do you factor in combat attrition to the armor itself?
or is it like old school D&D same suit can last forever?

[Library Ogre]

I didn't include it, but a suit takes as much damage as it lets through.

So, your suit of plate, with an RF of 13 (17-4), gets hit by a two-handed sword for 30 damage. You take 30-13, or 17 damage. Your suit also takes 17 damage. Less than that and, while armor gets dinged up a bit, it doesn't get damaged.

That is, unless, someone uses anti-armor weapons (like picks), which can just do damage to the armor.

[Damian Magecraft]

I didn't include it, but a suit takes as much damage as it lets through.

So, your suit of plate, with an RF of 13 (17-4), gets hit by a two-handed sword for 30 damage. You take 30-13, or 17 damage. Your suit also takes 17 damage. Less than that and, while armor gets dinged up a bit, it doesn't get damaged.

That is, unless, someone uses anti-armor weapons (like picks), which can just do damage to the armor.

interesting method...I use some thing similar but the suit take damage equal to the amount it absorbs. never thought about the double or ignore armor option on a crit. i will have to test that in my games sometime. how often do the players pick the ignore option? it would seem to me the double damage is the better option.

[Library Ogre]

I didn't include it, but a suit takes as much damage as it lets through.

So, your suit of plate, with an RF of 13 (17-4), gets hit by a two-handed sword for 30 damage. You take 30-13, or 17 damage. Your suit also takes 17 damage. Less than that and, while armor gets dinged up a bit, it doesn't get damaged.

That is, unless, someone uses anti-armor weapons (like picks), which can just do damage to the armor.

interesting method...I use some thing similar but the suit take damage equal to the amount it absorbs. never thought about the double or ignore armor option on a crit. i will have to test that in my games sometime. how often do the players pick the ignore option? it would seem to me the double damage is the better option.

It depends on the weapon and the armor. If all you have is a dagger, and you're trying desparately to do SOMETHING, you want the ignore option, because it means you got through their armor, period (doubling 1D4 against a 13 RF isn't going to help you much). Lower-damage weapons, especially with no PS bonus, tend to like the ignore option.

[Damian Magecraft]

I didn't include it, but a suit takes as much damage as it lets through.

So, your suit of plate, with an RF of 13 (17-4), gets hit by a two-handed sword for 30 damage. You take 30-13, or 17 damage. Your suit also takes 17 damage. Less than that and, while armor gets dinged up a bit, it doesn't get damaged.

That is, unless, someone uses anti-armor weapons (like picks), which can just do damage to the armor.

interesting method...I use some thing similar but the suit take damage equal to the amount it absorbs. never thought about the double or ignore armor option on a crit. i will have to test that in my games sometime. how often do the players pick the ignore option? it would seem to me the double damage is the better option.

It depends on the weapon and the armor. If all you have is a dagger, and you're trying desparately to do SOMETHING, you want the ignore option, because it means you got through their armor, period (doubling 1D4 against a 13 RF isn't going to help you much). Lower-damage weapons, especially with no PS bonus, tend to like the ignore option.

whoops! forgot about low damage weapons, yeah i can see that coming in handy. by using the RF system i assume you allow for stacking of armors? what kind of fallout effects has that created?

[Library Ogre]

whoops! forgot about low damage weapons, yeah i can see that coming in handy. by using the RF system i assume you allow for stacking of armors? what kind of fallout effects has that created?

Actually, I don't.

The "simplified" RF system assumes that a person is wearing a full suit of armor, or is specifically choosing to half-suit it. If you're wearing a Full Suit of Plate, you're not wearing plate on bare skin; you've got the equivalent of padded armor on underneath, and, depending on the era of the plate, you've got chain and so on at the joints. That's already counted into the AR upon which the RF is based; subtracting 4 from the AR is just to put humans on the zero level (since all attacks miss on a 1-4, ARs are at least 5 or higher; subtracting 4 accounts for this).

Trying to stack armor would be horribly heavy and unwieldy.

[Damian Magecraft]

whoops! forgot about low damage weapons, yeah i can see that coming in handy. by using the RF system i assume you allow for stacking of armors? what kind of fallout effects has that created?

Actually, I don't.

The "simplified" RF system assumes that a person is wearing a full suit of armor, or is specifically choosing to half-suit it. If you're wearing a Full Suit of Plate, you're not wearing plate on bare skin; you've got the equivalent of padded armor on underneath, and, depending on the era of the plate, you've got chain and so on at the joints. That's already counted into the AR upon which the RF is based; subtracting 4 from the AR is just to put humans on the zero level (since all attacks miss on a 1-4, ARs are at least 5 or higher; subtracting 4 accounts for this).

Trying to stack armor would be horribly heavy and unwieldy.

makes sense, but...
what about magical enhancements? (for example i have "created" a magical cloth that can act as armor) would in your opinion this stack? or would the better of the 2 superceed? (trying to get a feel for this method my current one has a few holes.) Also how does this effect beings with Natural AR? (i understand the -4 aspect i mean on stacking or not)

[Library Ogre]

makes sense, but...
what about magical enhancements? (for example i have "created" a magical cloth that can act as armor) would in your opinion this stack? or would the better of the 2 superceed? (trying to get a feel for this method my current one has a few holes.) Also how does this effect beings with Natural AR? (i understand the -4 aspect i mean on stacking or not)

For the most part, armor is additive, but with a bit of a diminished return; if wearing multiple layers (even if some of them are natural), you take a -1 to your RF for every layer you have. So a Kankoran (RF 2) wearing Soft Leather (RF 6), has a total RF of 6 (6 + 2 - 2); the soft leather and his hide both overlap quite a bit in their protection, so he doesn't get any benefit from his natural armor while wearing armor. An Incubus (RF 6), however, wearing the same armor (RF 6), would have a total RF of 10 (6 + 6 - 2); they're pretty tough, and their armor protects them, but there's redundancies. A deevil (RF 8) wearing a Cloak of Armor (RF 10) and Leather of Iron (RF 11)? RF 26 (8+10+11-3). Get rid of his Cloak and his RF is 17.

That deevil Beast, incidentally? With the natural RF of 11? With one action (casting Armor of Ithan, which has an RF of 14), he can raise his RF to 23.

THIS is why we like the option to ignore armor on criticals.

[Damian Magecraft]

one last question...
that covers the fantasy games pretty well.
how does the system do in a more modern setting? (HU comes to mind)

[Library Ogre]

one last question...
that covers the fantasy games pretty well.
how does the system do in a more modern setting? (HU comes to mind)

It works pretty well, actually. I incorporate PV as a flat-out RF reducer (if your bullet has a PV of 7, you ignore the first 7 points of RF), meaning you can mix firearms into the mix by adding only one additional step.