magic vs. tech - post RUE

[grandmaster z0b]

I know this has been beaten to death before, but in the post RUE world of rifts who do you think has the advantage in combat, magic or tech?

I think it pretty even now that little timmy and his bag of rocks aren't so deadly to mages anymore.

What do you think? Discuss -

[grandmaster z0b]

OK maybe I should take "combined" out of the options.

However at least one person think magic is more powerful now, I'm assuming it's Alejandro after our last discussion.

[Kagashi]

Of course a combined force is more powerful...

Although I did think that there should be some sort of progression for Magic using characters, adding extra attacks to ranged tech combat for aimed shots and called shots, and making lower level spells cost only one action, greatly restricted tech/boosted magic in RUE.

Now a magic user has an advantage over the tech guy in both speed and versitility. The magic user can cast a firebolt before the tech guy even unholsters his pistol... Plus, Magic still retains its primary advantage. Magic is like getting a chick pregnant...any idiot can do it. So complex, yet so simple. The tech guy must rely on the correct training to use his complex machinery correctly. There has to be a scientist or designer to make an effective weapon, and factories to make the weapon. All this costs time, money and resources.

The highest reason why magic is better is, magic wins in a war of attrition any day of the week. Magic does not need to repair MDC, and it only takes simple time to replenish its 'bullets' (PPE). It does this for absolutly free. Augment that with techno wizardry and your golden.

So, getting rid of the "combined" option, Magic wins hands down.

[grandmaster z0b]

I don't think that magic is a simple as that, years and years of learning to cast a 1d6 fireball doesn't seem to be the same as learning one modern WP.

[Toc Rat]

Technology still has the edge by a wide margin. Even with the new rules.

[AnubisXy]

Tech will win out, generally. It takes alot less time to train a platoon of Deadboys to use laser guns than it takes to train a platoon of mages to cast spells.

Now, in individual combat, I think the mage will generally win... unless he's facing off in someone wearing Power Armor (like a SAMAS or a Glitter Boy). Even with the most powerful spells mages can cast, tech still has the definite advantage, at least in terms of range. Few spells have the range of a volley of Long Range Missles, or a Boomgun. Assuming all things being equal, the guy in the SAMAS will float up in the sky out of range of the mage's spells and rain down fiery death.

Still, the new rules for Magic do help out quite a bit. Combat casting is now possible, and a warrior mage (like a Mystic Knight or a Warborn) is probably one of the most terrifying things in the game... especially if they "power up" and then hop into a Power Armor of their own.

AnubisXy

[grandmaster z0b]

I also think it depends on whether your talking about an average LLW and an average headhunter/merc or comparing dragons and demons with power armour, robots and tanks.

Things like dragons are really hard enemies to beat, even against tanks and power armour since they have similar MDC but can teleport out, regenerate the MDC and then attack again.

Tech still has the advantage of out ranging almost every spell though.

[Hannibal]

Well, I think including the "combined forces is more powerful" option in your poll ensures that you won't get an answer to the "which is more powerful?" question.
The combination answer, however, is exactly why Atlantis is so powerful.

As far as which I think is more powerful if the only three choices were tech, magic or equal...I don't know. I'd probably go with technology. The gun will always be the great equalizer.

I agree. With a combined force option, it totally takes away from the comparison question of magic v. tech. I don't think anyone could convincingly argue that a combined force wouldn't be strongest.

So, I'm ignoring the combined force option, and based just on tech v. magic, post-RUE, I'd have to say magic.

[AnubisXy]

I agree. With a combined force option, it totally takes away from the comparison question of magic v. tech. I don't think anyone could convincingly argue that a combined force wouldn't be strongest.

So, I'm ignoring the combined force option, and based just on tech v. magic, post-RUE, I'd have to say magic.

Well, I guess it depends on what he means by "combined". If we're talking Techno Wizardry, I think it could be argued that regular tech exceeds it in some respects. Now if we're talking about a platoon of tech soldiers assisted by a group of mages, then we're talking something else entirely. And finally, if we're talking about a Mystic Knight with a wilks-remy laser rifle, a rune sword, and magically reinforced body armor, we're talking about something different from both of the first two examples.

Really, it depends, is he talking "Magic vs Tech" as far as the "man on the street" goes, or is he talking Magic vs Tech in general. Will this turn into Death's Head Transports vs Adult Dragons, vs Alien Intelligences vs Star Ships?

AnubisXy

[grandmaster z0b]

Range is, IMHO, the most overlooked and underused advantage of tech over magic. Take the example of a magic-user with a firebolt and a deadboy with a C-12. I'll be generous and give the mage a speed of 20.
If the deadboy started at max standoff for his weapon, 2000 feet, and started firing, it would take the magic-user 6 melee rounds to get in range to cast his fire bolt, and that's assuming the deadboy just stood there.

This advantage becomes even greater when you intoduce flying power armor with a 4000 foot range rail gun or mini-missles. A magic-user could never come close to getting in range for a spell, nor could a dragon for that matter. They simply wouldn't be able to fight back, and therefore wouldn't stand a chance.

Yeah I think that's very true, however as most people don't play rifts at those ranges it's often a negligable difference.

Also dragons can teleport so the issue of range with them is void.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I know this has been beaten to death before, but in the post RUE world of rifts who do you think has the advantage in combat, magic or tech?

I think it pretty even now that little timmy and his bag of rocks aren't so deadly to mages anymore.

What do you think? Discuss -

I think palladium rediculously reversed problems.

now it takes Tech longer to get their attacks off--and with fewer bonuses besides.

[grandmaster z0b]

I agree. With a combined force option, it totally takes away from the comparison question of magic v. tech. I don't think anyone could convincingly argue that a combined force wouldn't be strongest.

So, I'm ignoring the combined force option, and based just on tech v. magic, post-RUE, I'd have to say magic.

Well, I guess it depends on what he means by "combined". If we're talking Techno Wizardry, I think it could be argued that regular tech exceeds it in some respects. Now if we're talking about a platoon of tech soldiers assisted by a group of mages, then we're talking something else entirely. And finally, if we're talking about a Mystic Knight with a wilks-remy laser rifle, a rune sword, and magically reinforced body armor, we're talking about something different from both of the first two examples.

Really, it depends, is he talking "Magic vs Tech" as far as the "man on the street" goes, or is he talking Magic vs Tech in general. Will this turn into Death's Head Transports vs Adult Dragons, vs Alien Intelligences vs Star Ships?

AnubisXy

Hmm I din't really think that far ahead, but I'm more talking about playable OCC/RCCs rather than Alien Intelligences vs Star Ships.

[AnubisXy]

In general terms, I think a Ley Line Walker with a laser pistol and some decent armor will defeat an equivilent level Deadboy with the same laser pistol and armor... I'm pretty sure that's a given, nobody will disagree with it, even if we're discussing the origional Rifts rules. Even when magic sucked in combat, it still gave the Ley Line Walker enough options (such as invisiblity, or shadow melding, or minor teleporation) to easily get an advantage over his enemy.

Really, it's when we start trying to make things "balanced" that it, ironically, becomes more unbalanced. It's important to consider what we're trying to balance as well. If you give the ley line walker some sweet technowizard armor, will you need to give the deadboy a suit of power armor? If the ley line walker gets a rune weapon from Atlantis, does the deadboy get a force field from Phase World?

Ultimately though, technology is the main balancer, even in a post RUE setting. A mage just relying on his spells and going mano-a-mano with a deadboy is probably going to get creamed. However. a mage wielding a technological weapon and relying on his spells to support him... he'd make mincemeat out of the deadboy. A mage is strong, but give him a decent rifle, a set of MDC armor and he'll be mopping up people who just rely on technology.

This does starts to fall off a little bit as the mage gets stronger... a 15th level ley line walker without any MDC weapons or armor could probably defeat a deadboy who was equipped with decent weapons. In Rifts, the difference between a 1st level mage and a 15th level mage is pretty incredible and very noticable. The difference between a 1st level deadboy and a 15th level deadboy however is somewhat less impresses. (He'll have extra hit points which are worthless in an MDC environment, much higher skills and maybe a +2 or 3 on his attack rolls).

End thoughts: I think that the new RUE have made magic somewhat more useful, but ultimately it's still eclipsed, both on the small scale and the large scale, by technology.

AnubisXy

[Nxla666]

Combined forces are almost always more powerful than one that relies strictly on one or the other so I voted that way.

But personally I still prefer tech, let others deal with magic.

[Nxla666]

I know this has been beaten to death before, but in the post RUE world of rifts who do you think has the advantage in combat, magic or tech?

I think it pretty even now that little timmy and his bag of rocks aren't so deadly to mages anymore.

What do you think? Discuss -

I think palladium rediculously reversed problems.

now it takes Tech longer to get their attacks off--and with fewer bonuses besides.

Only if you actually make them take more time, I just say they use up X number of actions and let them cast/shoot.

[Toc Rat]

Tech's range is only useful if you play Rifts to completely ignore certain aspects of reality while holding onto others. A 4000 foot range on a railgun won't do you a damn bit of good if you can't even see your target. From personal experience, I can tell you that at 1500 feet, a man sized target is about 1-2 cm....now you want to put accurate fire on it with a machinegun? Good luck. Even with target magnification as a possibility, rapid firing machinegun bursts at a target that far away? Laughable chance to hit.

Targeting computers make it very possible to hit at a range of 4000 feet even with today's technology. The sights on an LAV-25 are accurate for point targets at up to 9000 feet with the 25mm and 2400 feet with the coxial 7.62 machinegun, so it isn't a stretch for me to believe future, high-tech power armor could have better sights than that. I don't believe that utilizing the range of a rail gun ignores any "aspects of reality".

While moving?

Yes

[The Beast]

OK maybe I should take "combined" out of the options.

Yes, you should have. Otherwise I would have gone with tech.

[Sureshot]

I voted tech is more powerful.

Their is just too many disadvantages against magic:

-Poor range and damage.
-Losing a spell if hit in combat.
-Relative easy saves against it.
-Protective spells are nowhere near what even body armor offers. Unless one plays at higher level.
-No really good anti-tech spells. Their are many that help against those in body armor. Most do not work against power armor or robots. Negate Mechanics is a joke imo.
-unable to wear metal armor.

I can understand the need for balance in the game. But man when you have all of the above to worry about is it any wonder magic is imo one of the leat liked elements in Rifts. At the very least there needs to be some advantage and imo the positive is outweighed by the negative.

The tech character imo only really has to worry about ammo and being ambushed/surprised and depending on his location repairs. Otherwise they do not have the same disadvantages listed above. Psionics to a certain extant suffer from that to. Except they can still call up a power when struck and have some potent anit-tech abilities in the form of Telemechanical Possession and Telemechanical Paralysis.

I always felt in both editions of Rifts the rules shoehorned you into playing "sneaky" and "stealthy" mages when it should have been the players choice. That being said the magic system itself works perfect in PFRG.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I know this has been beaten to death before, but in the post RUE world of rifts who do you think has the advantage in combat, magic or tech?

I think it pretty even now that little timmy and his bag of rocks aren't so deadly to mages anymore.

What do you think? Discuss -

I think palladium rediculously reversed problems.

now it takes Tech longer to get their attacks off--and with fewer bonuses besides.

Only if you actually make them take more time, I just say they use up X number of actions and let them cast/shoot.

yea...but we ain't talking houserules here.

[dark brandon]

I think palladium rediculously reversed problems.

now it takes Tech longer to get their attacks off--and with fewer bonuses besides.

Agreed.

[dark brandon]

This is probably my least favorite change in RUE.

I believe magic was fairly balanced before and only really needed something to help it out, something like ppe channeling at reduced ppe per lvl or an ability for mages to cast some spells at an accelerated rate.

As it is, magic's versitility make them nearly broken. Start a LLW and a Grunt at level 1 4000 ft away from each other, a mage can easily get within range making distance nearly factorless and unseen (Few EBA has thermos), mage casts inv. simple and boom, the fight is basically over. Against multiple opponents cast CoA or Magic net. Only a juicer has a real chance to get out of the way of a magic net. Have trouble with some people, cast fear...a 2nd level spell with a 16 save.

What's worse is that there was only gimpage for techs. LLW for example can fire a weapon just as well as a 1st level grunt. He is not restricted from wearing armor, though wearing armor does impeed his magics, he garners no penalty, and there's a 20% chance wearing the armor will not affect a spell at all, and even if it does, all for the cost of 20% more PPE. So he can have the protection of crusaider armor AND cast magic. There is no chance the spell completely fails, the spell backfires, the mage loses the PPE.

If they wanted to balanced it out, they should have allowed aimed shots and called aimed shots to remain at 1 APM (at least for MAA OCC's) and given MAA OCC's a +1 or +2 bonus to strike with ranged weapons.

[Vrykolas2k]

Tech has the edvantage in range and damage, but magic has the advantage in versatility.

[Kagashi]

As much as I loved PPE channeling, I also am a big supporter of simplicity.

I just made a house rule that was kinda like PPE channeling (as far as more advanced folks cast spells faster than less advanced folks) where it took a number of actions equal to the level of the spell, minus the mages level with 1 action being the lowest.

No real math involved and it only takes one sentence to explain it.

Still, RUE give magic the advantage.

[RainOfSteel]

Only if you actually make them take more time, I just say they use up X number of actions and let them cast/shoot.

Really? AFAICT, the rules say exactly that.

[grandmaster z0b]

If they wanted to balanced it out, they should have allowed aimed shots and called aimed shots to remain at 1 APM (at least for MAA OCC's) and given MAA OCC's a +1 or +2 bonus to strike with ranged weapons.

Yeah I think that's a good idea, personally I also ignore the rule that it takes two shots for an aimed shot thing. If RUE had introduced fast magic casting or the increased time it took to shot an aimed shot or aimed burst it would have been balanced, but with both it's a bit weird.

I must say that I house rule a lot of tech weapons to do a lot more damage either by directly increasing the damage (with tanks, robots etc.) or allowing old school bursts. Without that a battle near a ley line may well leave the tech character without a chance unless they use the advantage of range and use good tactics.

[Nxla666]

Only if you actually make them take more time, I just say they use up X number of actions and let them cast/shoot.

Really? AFAICT, the rules say exactly that.

Agreed, but many people say that if, say, a power punch takes two actions you have to declare your action and then on your second action you strike, me I just say it counts as two and throw your punch.

[Kagashi]

Only if you actually make them take more time, I just say they use up X number of actions and let them cast/shoot.

Really? AFAICT, the rules say exactly that.

Agreed, but many people say that if, say, a power punch takes two actions you have to declare your action and then on your second action you strike, me I just say it counts as two and throw your punch.

Personally, I like to view it as an actual time line. So the first attack would be a super wind up, then on the second the actual strike. Same for casting spells. I use excel to see when things "of off" and the timeline is split up per attacks per melee. I know its nitnoid, but it makes sense to me.

[Nxla666]

Only if you actually make them take more time, I just say they use up X number of actions and let them cast/shoot.

Really? AFAICT, the rules say exactly that.

Agreed, but many people say that if, say, a power punch takes two actions you have to declare your action and then on your second action you strike, me I just say it counts as two and throw your punch.

Personally, I like to view it as an actual time line. So the first attack would be a super wind up, then on the second the actual strike. Same for casting spells. I use excel to see when things "of off" and the timeline is split up per attacks per melee. I know its nitnoid, but it makes sense to me.

Whatever works for you, I try to make battles take a little time as possible so if just using APM as "action points" speeds it up I am all for it.