Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0/TSC

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Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0/TSC

Unread post by green.nova343 »

So, I know Palladium no longer has the rights for Robotech or Macross II, but just as a side project of my own I thought it would be nice to work on essentially converting the Macross II elements so that they're more in line with the "Second Edition" version of Robotech as presented in The Shadow Chronicles.

Specifically, I figure that the main focus would be adapting the combination of TSC and The Macross Saga Sourcebook. First, because the anime Macross II: Lovers Again is meant to be a sequel to Macross: DYRL...which from what I understand of SDF Macross canon is viewed as an in-universe cross between a propaganda/recruitment film ("Join the UN Spacy! Service Guarantees Citizen...wait, that's the wrong movie...") and a "based on true events" film (like Midway or Dunkirk). That makes the Macross Saga mecha & O.C.C.s closer to the U.N. Spacy versions than those from the Masters or New Generation eras. Second, from a visual perspective, the UN Spacy & Marduk mecha obviously make much more sense as derivatives of those seen in the Macross era/timeline than any of the just-as-alien designs from the Invid or Masters. And finally...because looking at how the M2 O.C.C.s are set up, they're much closer to the old-style RDF/UEDF versions than the later REF/UEEF ones (& way different than anything from the Masters era).

But I have a bit of a dilemma. I'm not even going to touch on making any adjustments to the mecha or starships yet, but I'm a bit stuck on how to proceed with the O.C.C.s and skills. I have two options I can choose from here.

Option 1: Adapt the skill list from TSC/Macross Sourcebook, modifying them to account for the technology differences, and use the original Macross II O.C.C.s as listed with as few changes as possible.

Option 2: Slightly modify the skill list from TSC/Macross Sourcebook to account for the technology differences, & use the TSC/Macross Sourcebook O.C.C.s as listed with as few changes as possible.

In terms of the amount of work, option 1 is probably the least intensive. However, there are some issues I'm struggling with:

  • Unlike the old Robotech O.C.C.s, Macross II characters separate out Espionage & Military skills, & nearly all of them have access to the Military category, making a lot of the newer skills readily available. However, just like the old RDF/ASC characters, Macross II never had the Wilderness category...& even though some of them showed up as Technical skills, for some reason most of the characters didn't have access to them. I'm not sure how to best adapt those Wilderness skills so that they're more readily available if I go with option #1 without having to make more changes to the O.C.C.s than I would like. And there are some other categories where Robotech 2.0 characters have more access to the skills than their 1.0 counterparts did, so again the Macross II characters lose out on some customization options (& I really, really love having a lot of flexibility in characters' skill selections).
  • Whichever option I choose, some skills are going to have to be changed. Some are obvious (Pilot Veritech to Pilot Valkyrie), but some are going to involve some rewriting of the description (i.e. Robotechnology Engineering will probably become Overtechnology Engineering, but haven't quite decided yet on Biomechanical Maintenance).
  • I feel like I'm missing out on more flexibility if I don't go with option #2. Even though it would take a lot more work, I feel like it would allow for players to have more than just "the usual suspects" in their O.C.C.s. For example, instead of having a couple of Valkyrie Pilots in their team, maybe one of them is a real hot-shot at atmospheric flying, while the other one is more comfortable in deep-space environments because they've only served with squadrons assigned to the UN Spacy fleets.
  • One of the biggest differences between the Robotech settings & the Macross II RPG (in their original versions) is the idea of Basic mecha training vs. Elite combat training. Robotech 1.0 only had Basic training show up with the REF, & even then it seemed like Basic for Destroids was only for Destroid Pilots, while Basic for Veritechs was meant for those that weren't full-blown Veritech pilots. In Macross II, though, it seems to follow more of the Rifts RPG standard (i.e. Elite training in 1 type/model gives you Basic training in all similar types/models). Back in Robotech 2.0, though, Mecha Basic Combat Training doesn't even exist: you either have MECT (Mecha Elite Combat Training), or you have no combat training. If I go with option #2, I'm debating whether to bring that dynamic from Robotech 2.0 over to Macross II, or if I should slip MBCT (Mecha Basic Combat Training) into the mix somehow.

Thoughts or suggestions?
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

green.nova343 wrote:First, because the anime Macross II: Lovers Again is meant to be a sequel to Macross: DYRL...which from what I understand of SDF Macross canon is viewed as an in-universe cross between a propaganda/recruitment film ("Join the UN Spacy! Service Guarantees Citizen...wait, that's the wrong movie...") and a "based on true events" film (like Midway or Dunkirk).

Sort of... the official parallel world timeline of Macross II: Lovers Again treats Macross: Do You Remember Love? as a mostly-accurate depiction of the First Space War. Its video game tie-ins have a few distinct nods to the TV series version but it's mostly DYRL? all the way.

The timeline used by Macross titles from Macross Plus and Macross 7 onwards treats Macross: Do You Remember Love? as an in-universe documentary drama movie (some books hint that it's actually part of a SERIES of such films) that dramatized the events of the First Space War in a way that emphasized the ongoing threat posed by the thousands of remaining Zentradi fleets wandering the galaxy. It was filmed with heavy participation from the military, albeit with anachronistic equipment like later-block VF-1 variants and pilot suits and a mixture of real Zentradi hardware and holographic stand-ins.



green.nova343 wrote:That makes the Macross Saga mecha & O.C.C.s closer to the U.N. Spacy versions than those from the Masters or New Generation eras.

For the most part, yes...



green.nova343 wrote:But I have a bit of a dilemma. I'm not even going to touch on making any adjustments to the mecha or starships yet, but I'm a bit stuck on how to proceed with the O.C.C.s and skills. I have two options I can choose from here.

Option 1: Adapt the skill list from TSC/Macross Sourcebook, modifying them to account for the technology differences, and use the original Macross II O.C.C.s as listed with as few changes as possible.

Option 2: Slightly modify the skill list from TSC/Macross Sourcebook to account for the technology differences, & use the TSC/Macross Sourcebook O.C.C.s as listed with as few changes as possible.

Having tried it both ways, I think I favor Option 2... albeit with a fair amount of pruning and consolidation being done to the RPG's skill lists in general.



green.nova343 wrote:
  • Unlike the old Robotech O.C.C.s, Macross II characters separate out Espionage & Military skills, & nearly all of them have access to the Military category, making a lot of the newer skills readily available. However, just like the old RDF/ASC characters, Macross II never had the Wilderness category...& even though some of them showed up as Technical skills, for some reason most of the characters didn't have access to them. I'm not sure how to best adapt those Wilderness skills so that they're more readily available if I go with option #1 without having to make more changes to the O.C.C.s than I would like. And there are some other categories where Robotech 2.0 characters have more access to the skills than their 1.0 counterparts did, so again the Macross II characters lose out on some customization options (& I really, really love having a lot of flexibility in characters' skill selections).

To be honest, losing the wilderness skills is kind of justified given the OVA's setting.

Earth's environment is... not in fantastic shape circa 2092. The 425th Boddole Zer Main Fleet's orbital bombardment pretty much obliterated Earth's biosphere and left the planet's landmasses a series of unlovely and utterly unlivable deserts pocked with impact craters from high-yield energy weapons fire. Apart from the lethal deserts that cover much of the planet, the only areas of "wilderness" are the Nature Regeneration Project's work areas which are cultivated even more carefully than the most obsessive green thumb's garden. Even then, Earth is mostly dependent on some pretty significant and extreme measures to keep the planet habitable. There's a 500km-diameter sun shade deployed in outer space to help control global warming and a number of different types of designer bacteria are being used for everything from regulating the planet's atmospheric composition to cleaning up areas of radioactive contamination. What little plant life exists is artificially cultivated from surviving gene bank and seed bank samples, and the planet has virtual no non-human animal life with the few resurrected animal species being mainly pets. It's estimated that it'll take several thousand more years of strenuous effort before Earth bears any resemblance to the green planet it once was.

Going outside the cities is inadvisable to say the least between the lethal dust storms, the contaminated water, and the lack of anything to forage for food-wise. As such, wilderness skills wouldn't have been high on anyone's priority list. As Tom Lehrer once opined: "Don't drink the water, and don't breathe the air." TL;DR: Earth is a borderline death world outside of the cities and reclamation areas.



green.nova343 wrote:
  • Whichever option I choose, some skills are going to have to be changed. Some are obvious (Pilot Veritech to Pilot Valkyrie), but some are going to involve some rewriting of the description (i.e. Robotechnology Engineering will probably become Overtechnology Engineering, but haven't quite decided yet on Biomechanical Maintenance).

You could repurpose Biomechanical Maintenance as an engineering specialism for biotechnology. Zentradi overtechnology in DYRL? and Macross II doesn't just have an organic aesthetic... it does incorporate some biotechnological components. You could also arguably treat it as a pseudo-medical skill for Zentran and Meltran cybernetics. The Meltrandi make more extensive use of implants than the Zentradi do, having fiber-optic nervous systems, but the Zentradi do use cybernetics to some degree as well. Human overtechnology c.2092 is mostly artificial, but sometimes incorporates an unusual mixture of both Zentran and Meltran systems and many UN Spacy warships are repurposed Zentradi craft acquired from one of the many rogue Zentradi fleets to attack Earth over the last ~80 years.



green.nova343 wrote:
  • One of the biggest differences between the Robotech settings & the Macross II RPG (in their original versions) is the idea of Basic mecha training vs. Elite combat training. Robotech 1.0 only had Basic training show up with the REF, & even then it seemed like Basic for Destroids was only for Destroid Pilots, while Basic for Veritechs was meant for those that weren't full-blown Veritech pilots. In Macross II, though, it seems to follow more of the Rifts RPG standard (i.e. Elite training in 1 type/model gives you Basic training in all similar types/models). Back in Robotech 2.0, though, Mecha Basic Combat Training doesn't even exist: you either have MECT (Mecha Elite Combat Training), or you have no combat training. If I go with option #2, I'm debating whether to bring that dynamic from Robotech 2.0 over to Macross II, or if I should slip MBCT (Mecha Basic Combat Training) into the mix somehow.

TBH, I rather like the Elite Combat Training as there's an acknowledged significant difference between being trained to operate a Valkyrie and being trained to fight in one and MECT in particular reflects a pilot's training on, and extensive familiarity with, a particular aircraft or Destroid.

The way I handled a sort of middle ground for a main timeline Macross game was I had the basic Pilot skill, and allowed anyone with Elite Combat Training to transfer their proficiency with bonuses halved to any other mecha of the same type (e.g. VF pilots to another VF, Destroid pilots to another Destroid, etc.) for a period.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

The Mecha...wouldn't change anything except they run off of PC now.

Rules....just use RT2: TSC rules.

Story Wise...(basic premise) Maybe a Zent factory sat folded a 'little' too far and got captured. Some of the PC reverted back into IFL and the Marduk reengineered a Production matrix. Then have come to the Origen settings in the production sat's nav-comp.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

green.nova343 wrote:But I have a bit of a dilemma. I'm not even going to touch on making any adjustments to the mecha or starships yet, but I'm a bit stuck on how to proceed with the O.C.C.s and skills. I have two options I can choose from here.

I would go with Option 2 if you are going to be using the expanded skill list, and really most of the technology differences in terms of skills are going to just come down to naming convention (some skills might even be collapsable into "Basic" and "Expert" forms due to overlap). Option 1 seems like it might require more work to integrate depending on specific OCCs and the new skills, as for Wilderness it might be best to drop that category instead of using it (unless you think the skills will be relevant for a campaign) since the skills are likely to end up as slot fillers (not to mention working out what skills/bonuses for each OCC).

green.nova343 wrote:One of the biggest differences between the Robotech settings & the Macross II RPG (in their original versions) is the idea of Basic mecha training vs. Elite combat training. Robotech 1.0 only had Basic training show up with the REF, & even then it seemed like Basic for Destroids was only for Destroid Pilots, while Basic for Veritechs was meant for those that weren't full-blown Veritech pilots. In Macross II, though, it seems to follow more of the Rifts RPG standard (i.e. Elite training in 1 type/model gives you Basic training in all similar types/models). Back in Robotech 2.0, though, Mecha Basic Combat Training doesn't even exist: you either have MECT (Mecha Elite Combat Training), or you have no combat training. If I go with option #2, I'm debating whether to bring that dynamic from Robotech 2.0 over to Macross II, or if I should slip MBCT (Mecha Basic Combat Training) into the mix somehow.

In 1E RT we treated Expert as granting Basic just like in Rifts. As for bringing Basic into it a 2E type skill set, I would think it would work for the M2 setting since the work is essentially done (IIRC) for the likely mecha this would be needed for. Brining it into 2E RT means doing the work in terms of working out bonuses.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by jaymz »

I've already rewritten the macross 2 mecha to be more accurate....
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The Mecha...wouldn't change anything except they run off of PC now.

Rules....just use RT2: TSC rules.

Story Wise...(basic premise) Maybe a Zent factory sat folded a 'little' too far and got captured. Some of the PC reverted back into IFL and the Marduk reengineered a Production matrix. Then have come to the Origen settings in the production sat's nav-comp.

Ah, no... this topic isn't about adapting Macross II material into Robotech. It's about modernizing the Macross II game's ruleset using RT2e as a starting point.

That's why, among other things, he mentions changing the names and descriptions of skills to use Macross terminology.

The mecha run on thermonuclear fusion, Protoculture refers to the extinct ancient civilization that created the Zentradi and Humanity, etc. etc.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

My misunderstanding.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by green.nova343 »

No worries, & thanks for the ideas. So far, this is what I'm coming up with:

First, I've gone through the various skill lists a number of times, & I have only found 5 skills from Macross II that simply don't exist in Shadow Chronicles (or don't have an analogous skill):
  • Astronomy: The M2 skill is more basic than the version found in other settings (for example, in Rifts Ultimate Edition the Astronomy & Navigation skill is one of the 4 navigation-type skills, using the stars to chart your course (although I'm not sure I agree with it being more accurate than using standard navigational charts, as the off-course distance when you fail is much less than with the Navigation skill), as apparently it's just basic knowledge of the stars, constellations, & being able to determine the seasons. Since it's separate from Astrophysics, it shouldn't hurt to add it to the list for both M2 2.0 & Shadow Chronicles, but I'm still on the fence about adding the navigational aspects.
  • Civilian Valkyrie: M2 has this as a separate skill from the Robot Combat Valkyrie (elite) skill. My first inclination is to include it with the other Valkyries under a single piloting skill, but you have to select it as a specialization...& civilian O.C.C.s only get access to this one (& not the military VF-2 or -1MS types).
  • W.P. Chain: For whatever reason, this W.P. (Ancient) skill never made it into Shadow Chronicles. Inclusion is really easy, but I suppose GMs can always exclude it if they want.
  • Concealment and Palming: The lack of the Rogue category of skills isn't too much of a problem in Shadow Chronicles, as nearly all of the skills are found in the Espionage category & seem to be readily available to most O.C.Cs. But I can't figure out how these skills didn't make it into Shadow Chronicles. So I'm leaning towards adding them to the list of Espionage skills, but I haven't decided if they'll be available to O.C.C.s on a case-by-case basis or just in general.

I've also only come across 1 skill from Shadow Chronicles that simply cannot be available in M2, in any shape or form: Lore: Invid. There's no analogue for the Invid in the M2 setting (see below for handling the Marduk & their lore/history), & even if Lord Ingues isn't 100% Marduk (not sure if he's supposed to just be a Marduk that through their advanced medical science has lived so long that he's come to think of himself as a god, or if it would make sense that if you were to actually convert stats for him that you would use the Godling R.C.C. from Pantheons of the Megaverse) he's a single individual; there's no indication that he might have family, distant relations, or even friends of similar influence & power with their own fleets of loyal Marduk & Zentran/Meltran soldiers (scary thought), so it wouldn't make too much sense to have a skill dedicated to him.

Which leaves then the skills that get makeovers when converted from Shadow Chronicles to the M2 setting:
  • Lore: Zentraedi and Lore: Robotech Masters are easy conversions, simply becoming Lore: Zentran/Meltran and Lore: Marduk Prior to the encounter with Ingues's forces, though, & especially before Ishtar & Feff interact with humanity, Lore: Marduk will only be available to Marduk characters or their loyal Zentran & Meltran soldiers (although not very likely in the latter).
  • Similarly, History: Zentraedi becomes History: Zentran & Meltran, and History: Tirolian Empire becomes History: Marduk.
  • Mecha: Pilot Veritechs becomes Pilot Valkyries. Unlike with the original M2 setting, this skill is only for piloting the thing (hence having a skill percentage); fighting is a completely different type of training (see below).
  • Mecha: Pilot Battloid (Destroid) and Military: Zentraedi Ground Mecha are combined into the single skill Pilot Robots & Power Armor. Although the skill allows for the piloting of all non-transformable robot vehicles, the character has to pick a specialty (Ground Defense Robots, Marduk Robot Vehicles, Zentran & Meltran Robot Vehicles); piloting outside of your specialty has no penalties (although UN Spacy humans & Micronized Zentran/Meltran should have the standard -30% penalty for using "alien" technology applied; UN Spacy Giant Zentran/Meltran get only half the penalty when attempting to use the Marduk-loyal Zentran/Meltran designs, & vice versa) per se, but the availability of combat training is going to be limited (see below).
  • Military: Aerospace Fighters gets changed to Military: AGA-1JF. It's not a Valkyrie (or even a transformable vehicle), so knowing how to pilot Valkyries doesn't help you. It's not a conventional jet fighter, though, so knowing how to fly something like a Super Hornet or even an F-35 isn't going to help you with its flight characteristics. And since it can fly, knowing how to pilot the GDRs isn't going to help either.
  • Mecha Elite Combat Training becomes Robot Elite Combat Training. I'm still on the fence as to whether elite training in a particular robot vehicle of a class gives "basic" combat training in all robot vehicles of that class or not, though it would allow for humans/Micronized pilots to have some ability to fight in Marduk vehicles & vice versa. I'm still on the fence.
  • Mecha Engineering gets changed to Robot Engineering. Aside from changing the references to Protoculture in the description to "fusion/micro-fusion reactors", this is still the same skill that lets someone design & build the transformable & non-transformable robot vehicles used in M2.
  • Biomechanical Maintenance keeps its name, but the reference to Protoculture in the description gets changed to "micro-fusion power systems" (& to a lesser extent larger fusion power systems). They can assist someone with the Robot Engineering skill in repairing systems, but can't build or design anything themselves.
  • Robotechnology Engineering is now called Overtechnology Engineering. Basically, Robotechnology in Robotech was just their fancy word for the hyper-advanced alien-based tech that the SDF-1 was built with, & that humanity was able to somewhat figure out & duplicate for their own designs. The term "Robotech" obviously never existed in the Macross settings, but the various sources I've come across indicate that in the main Macross & DYRL universes all of the ships seem to use the term "Overtechnology" when referring to the main systems (power/engines, thrusters, artificial gravity, "main guns", etc.), so I figure it's appropriate here. Also, replace any mention of Protoculture with (take your pick) "heat pile systems" or "nuclear fusion" (although they may refer to the same thing).
  • Protoculture Engineer is a little tougher. However, I'm leaning towards possibly something like Fusion or Micro-Fusion Engineering as the name for the skill. Essentially, this skill gives the character knowledge about how the various fusion-based reactor designs work, from the large-scale Reflex-type furnaces used in starships to the micro-fusion reactors used in Valkyries & other robot vehicles, & knows how to design & build them.

That's what I have so far. Thoughts or concerns?

EDIT: Forgot to include a couple of the skills from the Macross Sourcebook for TSC. They were on my spreadsheet, but I forgot to put a note in about the skill name changes.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

green.nova343 wrote:
  • Civilian Valkyrie: M2 has this as a separate skill from the Robot Combat Valkyrie (elite) skill. My first inclination is to include it with the other Valkyries under a single piloting skill, but you have to select it as a specialization...& civilian O.C.C.s only get access to this one (& not the military VF-2 or -1MS types).

This Skill is one where I ended up going in two different directions with it for setting reasons...
  • In my Macross II rewrite, I kept Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie specifically because the parallel world timeline to which Macross II: Lovers Again belongs presents the "Civilian Valkyrie" as an entirely separate, distinct class of variable aircraft specifically designed and built for non-military applications. They were originally meant for government use but eventually found a second market with various corporations that needed highly versatile aircraft and a tertiary one as leisure craft for thrill seekers.
  • In the main timeline Macross homebrew I built on the Macross II RPG, I did away with the skill Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie because that timeline's take on the "Civilian Valkyrie" fell into two broad categories. Instead, I ended up splitting it into Pilot: Valkyrie for the 1st-3rd Gen VFs and Pilot: Advanced Valkyrie for 4th Gen and 5th Gen VFs.
    • Former military aircraft that'd been decommissioned, disarmed, and stripped of any classified hardware or software before being sold to civilians at a disposal sale instead of being scrapped. These are usually aircraft that are two generations behind the military's current main VF, having been retired from frontline duty into training service and then retired from training service. The wear and tear on these aircraft can be so excessive that a prospective buyer may need to be multiple airframes to get enough parts to make one workable VF. (Most Vanquish League pilots come by their VFs in this manner, e.g. Chelsea Scarlett's VF-11B Nothung II, Nicolas Berthier's VF-9E Cutlass, Hakuna Aoba's VF-1X++ Custom Valkyrie, etc.)
    • Detuned and unarmed versions of older military-use VFs that are specifically built to maximize cost performance and ease of maintenance for civilians to use for various purposes.



green.nova343 wrote:I've also only come across 1 skill from Shadow Chronicles that simply cannot be available in M2, in any shape or form: Lore: Invid. There's no analogue for the Invid in the M2 setting (see below for handling the Marduk & their lore/history), & even if Lord Ingues isn't 100% Marduk (not sure if he's supposed to just be a Marduk that through their advanced medical science has lived so long that he's come to think of himself as a god, or if it would make sense that if you were to actually convert stats for him that you would use the Godling R.C.C. from Pantheons of the Megaverse) he's a single individual; there's no indication that he might have family, distant relations, or even friends of similar influence & power with their own fleets of loyal Marduk & Zentran/Meltran soldiers (scary thought), so it wouldn't make too much sense to have a skill dedicated to him.

Lord Ingues is, for all practical intents and purposes, the Living Command Computer of his Mobile Fortress mothership... similar to Gol Boddole Zer in Macross: Do You Remember Love?.

Of course, it's unknown if Ingues was always a self-aware organic technology military computer or if he was born a normal Mardook and was simply megalomaniacal enough to upload his consciousness into the nominally-immortal[sup]1[/sup] flesh of a living command computer at some point in his life.



green.nova343 wrote:
  • Lore: Zentraedi and Lore: Robotech Masters are easy conversions, simply becoming Lore: Zentran/Meltran and Lore: Marduk Prior to the encounter with Ingues's forces, though, & especially before Ishtar & Feff interact with humanity, Lore: Marduk will only be available to Marduk characters or their loyal Zentran & Meltran soldiers (although not very likely in the latter).
  • Similarly, History: Zentraedi becomes History: Zentran & Meltran, and History: Tirolian Empire becomes History: Marduk.

Quite honestly, you could call Lore/History skills for Zentradi & Meltrandi Lore: Protoculture and History: Protoculture since the origins of the Zentran and Meltran are closely related to the reasons the Protoculture's society entered into its terminal civil war and later collapsed. This may be helpful to players if the game starts getting into the Mardook as well... since the Mardook are quite strongly implied to be the descendants of one of the groups of Protoculture who decided to bury the hatchet and leg it for safer pastures much like the ones who settled on Earth and used their genetic science to elevate the homonids there into modern humanity before being forced to flee by the encroachment of the battle lines between the out-of-control Zentran and Meltran.



green.nova343 wrote:
  • Mecha: Pilot Veritechs becomes Pilot Valkyries. Unlike with the original M2 setting, this skill is only for piloting the thing (hence having a skill percentage); fighting is a completely different type of training (see below).
  • Mecha: Pilot Battloid (Destroid) and Military: Zentraedi Ground Mecha are combined into the single skill Pilot Robots & Power Armor. Although the skill allows for the piloting of all non-transformable robot vehicles, the character has to pick a specialty (Ground Defense Robots, Marduk Robot Vehicles, Zentran & Meltran Robot Vehicles); piloting outside of your specialty has no penalties (although UN Spacy humans & Micronized Zentran/Meltran should have the standard -30% penalty for using "alien" technology applied; UN Spacy Giant Zentran/Meltran get only half the penalty when attempting to use the Marduk-loyal Zentran/Meltran designs, & vice versa) per se, but the availability of combat training is going to be limited (see below).

TBH, I would keep Destroid and Zentradi Mecha skills separate. Not only are the controls very different - the Regult in particular is noted to be an ergonomics nightmare that is almost ENTIRELY run on manual control - but some of the Zentradi and Meltrandi mecha like the Nousjadeul-Ger and Queadluun-Rau require cybernetic implants to operate since they're partly controlled by a direct link with the operator's central nervous system.

I would also only apply the -30% penalty to the Mardook versions, since many UN Forces soldiers would be reasonably familiar with the usual Zentradi and Meltrandi mecha from training exercises and such. The Mardook versions are, however, different enough to be truly "alien" to even someone familiar with the Zentradi or Meltrandi equivalents.



green.nova343 wrote:
  • Military: Aerospace Fighters gets changed to Military: AGA-1JF. It's not a Valkyrie (or even a transformable vehicle), so knowing how to pilot Valkyries doesn't help you. It's not a conventional jet fighter, though, so knowing how to fly something like a Super Hornet or even an F-35 isn't going to help you with its flight characteristics. And since it can fly, knowing how to pilot the GDRs isn't going to help either.

Granted, the GERWALKroid isn't a Valkyrie... but it's very close to one, basically being a Valkyrie stuck in GERWALK mode. I would say a specialized skill would be fine for a dedicated pilot, but that any character with Pilot Valkyrie or Pilot Civilian Valkyrie would be able to muddle through with no real impediment to performance.



green.nova343 wrote:
  • Robotechnology Engineering is now called Overtechnology Engineering. Basically, Robotechnology in Robotech was just their fancy word for the hyper-advanced alien-based tech that the SDF-1 was built with, & that humanity was able to somewhat figure out & duplicate for their own designs. The term "Robotech" obviously never existed in the Macross settings, but the various sources I've come across indicate that in the main Macross & DYRL universes all of the ships seem to use the term "Overtechnology" when referring to the main systems (power/engines, thrusters, artificial gravity, "main guns", etc.), so I figure it's appropriate here. Also, replace any mention of Protoculture with (take your pick) "heat pile systems" or "nuclear fusion" (although they may refer to the same thing).

Initially, anyway, the term "overtechnology" was used to refer to anything derived from the technology of the alien ship that crashed on Earth in 1999... after that advanced technology became the norm the term was dropped. (The "OTM" prefacing a lot of it refers to human reverse-engineered overtechnology derived from the Macross... literally standing for "Overtechnology of (the) Macross".)

For the record, your assumption is correct... "heat pile system" is a synonym for "thermonuclear reactor (and generator)". Other synonyms used over the years include "reaction furnace", "compact thermonuclear reactor", "OTM thermonuclear reactor", and "fold reactor". "Fold reactor" seems to have become the new standard term from Macross Frontier onward.

Thermonuclear reactors are more or less the standard power source for any mecha in the Macross setting. They use artificial gravity for fuel compression and plasma confinement, and as such can use a wide variety of fuels including ones that are not necessarily nuclear material and that their fuel efficiency is impressively high, with some sipping as daintily as a quarter of a milliliter of hydrogen slush every second. They extract energy from the reaction using a combination of advanced thermoelectric converters and magnetohydrodynamic generators.



1. Gol Boddole Zer was over 120,000 years old when he was killed by the combined efforts of the SDF-1 Macross, his own rebelling Zentradi Main Fleet, and the surviving elements of the Meltrandi Laplamiz Main Fleet. There is no known limit to the lifespan of a Mobile Fortress or its Living Command Computer. Their only known mode of death is battle damage.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by green.nova343 »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
green.nova343 wrote:
  • Civilian Valkyrie: M2 has this as a separate skill from the Robot Combat Valkyrie (elite) skill. My first inclination is to include it with the other Valkyries under a single piloting skill, but you have to select it as a specialization...& civilian O.C.C.s only get access to this one (& not the military VF-2 or -1MS types).

This Skill is one where I ended up going in two different directions with it for setting reasons...
  • In my Macross II rewrite, I kept Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie specifically because the parallel world timeline to which Macross II: Lovers Again belongs presents the "Civilian Valkyrie" as an entirely separate, distinct class of variable aircraft specifically designed and built for non-military applications. They were originally meant for government use but eventually found a second market with various corporations that needed highly versatile aircraft and a tertiary one as leisure craft for thrill seekers.
  • In the main timeline Macross homebrew I built on the Macross II RPG, I did away with the skill Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie because that timeline's take on the "Civilian Valkyrie" fell into two broad categories. Instead, I ended up splitting it into Pilot: Valkyrie for the 1st-3rd Gen VFs and Pilot: Advanced Valkyrie for 4th Gen and 5th Gen VFs.
    • Former military aircraft that'd been decommissioned, disarmed, and stripped of any classified hardware or software before being sold to civilians at a disposal sale instead of being scrapped. These are usually aircraft that are two generations behind the military's current main VF, having been retired from frontline duty into training service and then retired from training service. The wear and tear on these aircraft can be so excessive that a prospective buyer may need to be multiple airframes to get enough parts to make one workable VF. (Most Vanquish League pilots come by their VFs in this manner, e.g. Chelsea Scarlett's VF-11B Nothung II, Nicolas Berthier's VF-9E Cutlass, Hakuna Aoba's VF-1X++ Custom Valkyrie, etc.)
    • Detuned and unarmed versions of older military-use VFs that are specifically built to maximize cost performance and ease of maintenance for civilians to use for various purposes.


Interesting, I hadn't considered the possibility of "civilianizing" the older Valkyrie/Veritech models. But I guess it's not too different than some of the private WW2 "warbirds" owners & groups that maintain WW2 airplanes in flying configuration. I might go ahead & keep it as a separate skill, then.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
green.nova343 wrote:I've also only come across 1 skill from Shadow Chronicles that simply cannot be available in M2, in any shape or form: Lore: Invid. There's no analogue for the Invid in the M2 setting (see below for handling the Marduk & their lore/history), & even if Lord Ingues isn't 100% Marduk (not sure if he's supposed to just be a Marduk that through their advanced medical science has lived so long that he's come to think of himself as a god, or if it would make sense that if you were to actually convert stats for him that you would use the Godling R.C.C. from Pantheons of the Megaverse) he's a single individual; there's no indication that he might have family, distant relations, or even friends of similar influence & power with their own fleets of loyal Marduk & Zentran/Meltran soldiers (scary thought), so it wouldn't make too much sense to have a skill dedicated to him.

Lord Ingues is, for all practical intents and purposes, the Living Command Computer of his Mobile Fortress mothership... similar to Gol Boddole Zer in Macross: Do You Remember Love?.

Of course, it's unknown if Ingues was always a self-aware organic technology military computer or if he was born a normal Mardook and was simply megalomaniacal enough to upload his consciousness into the nominally-immortal[sup]1[/sup] flesh of a living command computer at some point in his life.


That's an interesting possibility too. Aside from being able to use pre-existing examples in case a conversion needs comes up, I think I was leaning towards the "there might be something 'otherworldly' about him just because he's a lot more humanoid looking (as opposed to a weird cross between the Borg Queen & MODAK) than how DYRL Golg Boddole Zer (aka Dolza) was portrayed in DYRL. But that's probably a discussion for another day.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
green.nova343 wrote:
  • Lore: Zentraedi and Lore: Robotech Masters are easy conversions, simply becoming Lore: Zentran/Meltran and Lore: Marduk Prior to the encounter with Ingues's forces, though, & especially before Ishtar & Feff interact with humanity, Lore: Marduk will only be available to Marduk characters or their loyal Zentran & Meltran soldiers (although not very likely in the latter).
  • Similarly, History: Zentraedi becomes History: Zentran & Meltran, and History: Tirolian Empire becomes History: Marduk.

Quite honestly, you could call Lore/History skills for Zentradi & Meltrandi Lore: Protoculture and History: Protoculture since the origins of the Zentran and Meltran are closely related to the reasons the Protoculture's society entered into its terminal civil war and later collapsed. This may be helpful to players if the game starts getting into the Mardook as well... since the Mardook are quite strongly implied to be the descendants of one of the groups of Protoculture who decided to bury the hatchet and leg it for safer pastures much like the ones who settled on Earth and used their genetic science to elevate the homonids there into modern humanity before being forced to flee by the encroachment of the battle lines between the out-of-control Zentran and Meltran.


The main reason I wanted to keep them separate was actually kind of in line with your thinking about the Marduk/Mardook & the Protoculture. The Marduk/Mardook may have their own Zentran & Meltran soldiers, but their mere existence is a complete surprise to the UN Spacy. Whether from the perspective of standard Macross/Robotech continuity or DYRL/Macross 2 continuity, I would have assumed that Breetai/Kridanik & Exedore/Exsedol would have shared all of their knowledge of the various Zentraedi forces & factions with the UN Spacy after throwing in their lot with humanity (especially since DYRL/Macross II continuity, & possibly even standard Macross continuity, implies a much vaster Zentraedi force than we see on the Robotech side -- Dolza/Boddole Zer was commander of the "118th" Zentraedi Fleet, right? Even if only 1 in 10 of those fleets was still around, that's a lot more Zentraedi/Zentran & Meltran ships than we ever see on the Robotech side. And even if they had become factionalized over the years & perhaps lost touch with each other, I would think the knowledge of a faction of Zentran & Meltran warriors controlled & led by "Micronians" of any sort (let alone whether they were led by a being that considered himself a "god") -- especially given that said faction actually used both the male Zentran & female Zentran warriors, given that the two factions usually seemed to be antagonistic to each other -- would be noteworthy & quirky enough that it would have been in any databases that were shared with the UN Spacy High Command. Even having the remote possibility of a force like that would have at least been thought about & planned for, given how badly Terra had been battered by a single Zentraedi/Zentran fleet, yet despite facing ships that, while similar enough to standard Zentran designs, had noticeable enough physical differences that should have triggered something in the fleet/flotilla commanders that first encountered them to say, "Hold up a second, these aren't our typical Zentran opponents, maybe they could be these 'Mardook' the Zentran legends talk about, let's be a little more cautious here", instead of their "Oh, hey, it's some Zentran ships entering Sol System, their ships look a little funky but they're close enough to Zent standard that we're not going to worry about it, just fire up the Minmay Attack Satellites & we'll let them 'come at us in the same old way' so that we can 'kill them in the same'...What the f***!! What the h***, why isn't the Minmay Attack working?!?!!" reaction we had.

So I envision Lore/History: Zentran & Meltran being the knowledge about Zentran & Meltran lore & history as shared with humanity by Breetai/Kridanik & his supporters who became loyal to Terra, with Lore/History: Marduk being the knowledge about the Marduk/Mardook & their Zentran/Meltran troops, including their legends about the "Ship of Alus" that Ishtar talks about. There might be some basic cultural information that crosses over between the two, but the details -- especially the more in-depth knowledge about each "faction", as it were -- are going to be very different.

But I do like the idea of maybe having something about the Protoculture. So, yeah, maybe Lore/History: Protoculture could take the place of Lore: Invid, but the knowledge is extremely ancient & bordering on legend. Sort of like someone who has a super in-depth knowledge of, say, Greek mythology, who knows the family tree of not only the major Greek heroes (Heracles/Hercules, Theseus, Perseus, etc.) but also knows all of their grand-children & great-grandchildren...but knows nothing about actual Greek history or how the myths might have related to them.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
green.nova343 wrote:
  • Mecha: Pilot Veritechs becomes Pilot Valkyries. Unlike with the original M2 setting, this skill is only for piloting the thing (hence having a skill percentage); fighting is a completely different type of training (see below).
  • Mecha: Pilot Battloid (Destroid) and Military: Zentraedi Ground Mecha are combined into the single skill Pilot Robots & Power Armor. Although the skill allows for the piloting of all non-transformable robot vehicles, the character has to pick a specialty (Ground Defense Robots, Marduk Robot Vehicles, Zentran & Meltran Robot Vehicles); piloting outside of your specialty has no penalties (although UN Spacy humans & Micronized Zentran/Meltran should have the standard -30% penalty for using "alien" technology applied; UN Spacy Giant Zentran/Meltran get only half the penalty when attempting to use the Marduk-loyal Zentran/Meltran designs, & vice versa) per se, but the availability of combat training is going to be limited (see below).

TBH, I would keep Destroid and Zentradi Mecha skills separate. Not only are the controls very different - the Regult in particular is noted to be an ergonomics nightmare that is almost ENTIRELY run on manual control - but some of the Zentradi and Meltrandi mecha like the Nousjadeul-Ger and Queadluun-Rau require cybernetic implants to operate since they're partly controlled by a direct link with the operator's central nervous system.

I would also only apply the -30% penalty to the Mardook versions, since many UN Forces soldiers would be reasonably familiar with the usual Zentradi and Meltrandi mecha from training exercises and such. The Mardook versions are, however, different enough to be truly "alien" to even someone familiar with the Zentradi or Meltrandi equivalents.


Ok, that makes more sense to keep them separate. I wasn't too worried about a GDR pilot trying to control a Battle Pod, though -- I don't think the UN Spacy in Macross 2 regularly engages in the practice of Macro-sizing full-blooded Terrans, & you'd have to be Giant-sized to be able to pilot standard Zentran/Meltran vehicles. I'd still lean towards letting the UN Spacy Giant Zentran/Meltran Soldiers only have a -15% penalty if they managed to get their hands on one of the Mardook Pods or Power Armor suits (the Mardook seem more concerned about keeping their Zentran/Meltran troopers dumb & content, so I suspect the controls are kept as simple as possible). But yeah, a GDR Pilot or Valkyrie Pilot (or even a Micronized Zentran/Meltran trooper) that manages to acquire a Gilgamesh suit should definitely have the -30% penalty applied.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
green.nova343 wrote:
  • Military: Aerospace Fighters gets changed to Military: AGA-1JF. It's not a Valkyrie (or even a transformable vehicle), so knowing how to pilot Valkyries doesn't help you. It's not a conventional jet fighter, though, so knowing how to fly something like a Super Hornet or even an F-35 isn't going to help you with its flight characteristics. And since it can fly, knowing how to pilot the GDRs isn't going to help either.

Granted, the GERWALKroid isn't a Valkyrie... but it's very close to one, basically being a Valkyrie stuck in GERWALK mode. I would say a specialized skill would be fine for a dedicated pilot, but that any character with Pilot Valkyrie or Pilot Civilian Valkyrie would be able to muddle through with no real impediment to performance.


I can see that, yes, just like the old Robotech RPG said that someone with the Pilot Jet [Fighter] skill could fly & fight in a Veritech, but was limited to Fighter Mode only, or that Destroid Pilots might be able to work a Veritech in Battloid Mode but couldn't manage the other modes. But it's that tricky GERWALK/Guardian-like mode (I so just want to call it "LAM Configuration") that the AGA is essentially designed for that will give people problems. Do you think maybe a -15% or -20% penalty for not having the correct piloting skill sounds good?

Seto Kaiba wrote:
green.nova343 wrote:
  • Robotechnology Engineering is now called Overtechnology Engineering. Basically, Robotechnology in Robotech was just their fancy word for the hyper-advanced alien-based tech that the SDF-1 was built with, & that humanity was able to somewhat figure out & duplicate for their own designs. The term "Robotech" obviously never existed in the Macross settings, but the various sources I've come across indicate that in the main Macross & DYRL universes all of the ships seem to use the term "Overtechnology" when referring to the main systems (power/engines, thrusters, artificial gravity, "main guns", etc.), so I figure it's appropriate here. Also, replace any mention of Protoculture with (take your pick) "heat pile systems" or "nuclear fusion" (although they may refer to the same thing).

Initially, anyway, the term "overtechnology" was used to refer to anything derived from the technology of the alien ship that crashed on Earth in 1999... after that advanced technology became the norm the term was dropped. (The "OTM" prefacing a lot of it refers to human reverse-engineered overtechnology derived from the Macross... literally standing for "Overtechnology of (the) Macross".)

For the record, your assumption is correct... "heat pile system" is a synonym for "thermonuclear reactor (and generator)". Other synonyms used over the years include "reaction furnace", "compact thermonuclear reactor", "OTM thermonuclear reactor", and "fold reactor". "Fold reactor" seems to have become the new standard term from Macross Frontier onward.

Thermonuclear reactors are more or less the standard power source for any mecha in the Macross setting. They use artificial gravity for fuel compression and plasma confinement, and as such can use a wide variety of fuels including ones that are not necessarily nuclear material and that their fuel efficiency is impressively high, with some sipping as daintily as a quarter of a milliliter of hydrogen slush every second. They extract energy from the reaction using a combination of advanced thermoelectric converters and magnetohydrodynamic generators.



1. Gol Boddole Zer was over 120,000 years old when he was killed by the combined efforts of the SDF-1 Macross, his own rebelling Zentradi Main Fleet, and the surviving elements of the Meltrandi Laplamiz Main Fleet. There is no known limit to the lifespan of a Mobile Fortress or its Living Command Computer. Their only known mode of death is battle damage.


The sources I'd come across seemed to indicate that the term "Overtechnology" was essentially being used in the same all-encompassing way that "Robotechnology" gets used in the Robotech setting: that it didn't just refer to the original alien tech found by humanity, but also to the new adaptations & even completely new technology that can trace its way back to that first "jump start" that the SDF-1 provided Terra, that even a brand-new Reflex furnace built 100% by Terrans with 100% Terran-designed and Terran-produced components (nothing scavenged or salvaged from Zentran ships, not even the raw materials) would still be considered an example of "Overtechnology" because the basis principles of its technology were based on the designs that the early UN Spacy engineers reverse-engineered from the crashed SDF-1 & their later Zentran allies. But if you think there might be a better term to use, I'm all for it, I just couldn't think of anything better.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

green.nova343 wrote:Interesting, I hadn't considered the possibility of "civilianizing" the older Valkyrie/Veritech models. But I guess it's not too different than some of the private WW2 "warbirds" owners & groups that maintain WW2 airplanes in flying configuration. I might go ahead & keep it as a separate skill, then.

Macross II: Lovers Again was the first Macross title to introduce the idea that Variable Fighter technology would eventually find its way into a non-military context with dedicated civilian-market VFs like the VC-079.

Macross 7 later had its own take on the idea, revealing that a fair amount of First Space War-era hardware had made its way out of military service and into the hands of private enterprise and civilian collectors. Some soldiers were even allowed to take their old mecha with them out of the service as part of their pensions like Milia did with her iconic VF-1J. Macross Dynamite 7 built on it further, showing that not only had the military sold off large amounts of old hardware to civilians but that they were working craft and not just collector's pieces and introducing purpose-built variants intended for civilians. The Macross Frontier prequel Macross the Ride took it to its logical conclusion by introducing VF-based air sports and having its story focus on a VF air racing league modeled on the Reno Air Races.



green.nova343 wrote:That's an interesting possibility too. Aside from being able to use pre-existing examples in case a conversion needs comes up, I think I was leaning towards the "there might be something 'otherworldly' about him just because he's a lot more humanoid looking (as opposed to a weird cross between the Borg Queen & MODAK) than how DYRL Golg Boddole Zer (aka Dolza) was portrayed in DYRL. But that's probably a discussion for another day.

IMO, Ingues looks rather like a halfway point between the Zentradi Living Command Computer and Meltrandi Living Holographic Computer. His power was very definitely technological in origin, albeit noticeably more advanced technology than anything the UN Forces had encountered before.



green.nova343 wrote:The main reason I wanted to keep them separate was actually kind of in line with your thinking about the Marduk/Mardook & the Protoculture. The Marduk/Mardook may have their own Zentran & Meltran soldiers, but their mere existence is a complete surprise to the UN Spacy.

Granted, the existence of the Mardook is definitely a surprise to the UN Forces... but admittedly, it's entirely justified. The galaxy is a VERY big place, and its thousands of Zentradi and Meltrandi main fleets are scattered across it without a centralized command structure in the wake of the Protoculture's Republic collapsing. Space folding is also admittedly kind of a rubbish way to explore space, since it's effectively a form of teleportation and you have no actual way to see what's between Point A and Point B while you're traveling there by making two volumes of space violently switch places through higher dimensional manipulation. Consequently, there is a LOT of space to hide in and the only way anyone's likely to find you is tracing the gravity waves from your fold jump (which spread at light speed, giving you years of head start) or bumping into you completely by accident (which is statistically improbable but does happen every now and again). The logistical nightmare that is warfare with these limitations are why the Protoculture's Zentradi and Meltrandi main fleets aren't a single monolithic formation, but rather an agglomeration of thousands of individual branch fleets of a thousand or so ships each so they can cover a lot of territory before ganging up on any targets they find.

Despite staying on the planet they defolded at, the surviving Protoculture who colonized Earth managed to remain undetected for ages before having to flee the expansion of the war front in Earth's direction.



green.nova343 wrote:Whether from the perspective of standard Macross/Robotech continuity or DYRL/Macross 2 continuity, I would have assumed that Breetai/Kridanik & Exedore/Exsedol would have shared all of their knowledge of the various Zentraedi forces & factions with the UN Spacy after throwing in their lot with humanity (especially since DYRL/Macross II continuity, & possibly even standard Macross continuity, implies a much vaster Zentraedi force than we see on the Robotech side -- Dolza/Boddole Zer was commander of the "118th" Zentraedi Fleet, right? Even if only 1 in 10 of those fleets was still around, that's a lot more Zentraedi/Zentran & Meltran ships than we ever see on the Robotech side.

Yeah, in the Macross setting(s), Boeddole Zer's main fleet was just one among thousands. At the Protoculture's height, at least 5,000 such fleets were active in the galaxy. Between 2,000 and 3,000 are supposedly still active in the modern galaxy in either version of the story. That said, the reason their war has dragged on for half a million years with no signs of stopping anytime soon is partly the aforementioned logistical issues combined with the automated factory satellites endlessly churning out fresh ships, soldiers, and war materiel... which they will continue to do forever until they're destroyed. Boddole Zer was commander of the 118th main fleet in the TV series and 425th in the movie.



green.nova343 wrote:And even if they had become factionalized over the years & perhaps lost touch with each other, I would think the knowledge of a faction of Zentran & Meltran warriors controlled & led by "Micronians" of any sort (let alone whether they were led by a being that considered himself a "god") -- especially given that said faction actually used both the male Zentran & female Zentran warriors, given that the two factions usually seemed to be antagonistic to each other -- would be noteworthy & quirky enough that it would have been in any databases that were shared with the UN Spacy High Command.

Vrlitwhai and Exsedol were nobody special, to be honest. They were the commander and records officer for one branch fleet among thousands in the 425th Boddole Zer main fleet. They wouldn't have had any extraordinary access to intelligence, and even if they did it's entirely possible their home main fleet just never encountered any evidence of the Mardook for the logistical reasons given above.

Mind you, the Zentradi (and Meltrandi) had lost basically all record of the ancient Protoculture's actual civilization, customs, culture, etc. in the intervening 500,000 years so they wouldn't be able to communicate anything about that to humanity anyway. Certainly nothing that might tip the Spacy off that their new foes are surviving Protoculture.



green.nova343 wrote:Ok, that makes more sense to keep them separate. I wasn't too worried about a GDR pilot trying to control a Battle Pod, though -- I don't think the UN Spacy in Macross 2 regularly engages in the practice of Macro-sizing full-blooded Terrans, & you'd have to be Giant-sized to be able to pilot standard Zentran/Meltran vehicles.

Strictly speaking, there is nothing preventing it and full-size Zentradi are seen in several scenes in Macross II in UN Forces uniforms.

But as the Earth has been fending off rogue Zentradi forces on and off for almost eighty years with monotonous regularity and ever-increasing efficiency, most troops would be fairly familiar with the common types of Zentradi (and Meltrandi) military hardware from simulated combat or actual combat.



green.nova343 wrote:But yeah, a GDR Pilot or Valkyrie Pilot (or even a Micronized Zentran/Meltran trooper) that manages to acquire a Gilgamesh suit should definitely have the -30% penalty applied.

Yeah, the Gigamesh suit is... different. Its method of combat is beyond weird and would definitely throw off anyone unlucky enough to fall into the cockpit.



green.nova343 wrote:I can see that, yes, just like the old Robotech RPG said that someone with the Pilot Jet [Fighter] skill could fly & fight in a Veritech, but was limited to Fighter Mode only, or that Destroid Pilots might be able to work a Veritech in Battloid Mode but couldn't manage the other modes. But it's that tricky GERWALK/Guardian-like mode (I so just want to call it "LAM Configuration") that the AGA is essentially designed for that will give people problems. Do you think maybe a -15% or -20% penalty for not having the correct piloting skill sounds good?

Maybe 15%, to reflect that someone familiar with GERWALK mode should at least have a reasonable idea how to fly the thing even if the handling itself is a bit different.



green.nova343 wrote:The sources I'd come across seemed to indicate that the term "Overtechnology" was essentially being used in the same all-encompassing way that "Robotechnology" gets used in the Robotech setting: that it didn't just refer to the original alien tech found by humanity, but also to the new adaptations & even completely new technology that can trace its way back to that first "jump start" that the SDF-1 provided Terra, that even a brand-new Reflex furnace built 100% by Terrans with 100% Terran-designed and Terran-produced components (nothing scavenged or salvaged from Zentran ships, not even the raw materials) would still be considered an example of "Overtechnology" because the basis principles of its technology were based on the designs that the early UN Spacy engineers reverse-engineered from the crashed SDF-1 & their later Zentran allies. But if you think there might be a better term to use, I'm all for it, I just couldn't think of anything better.

More or less, though it's worth noting "overtechnology" is actually a real word that existed before the series... a Japanese idiomatic term used to describe technology that defied modern understanding.

They stopped using the term after a while when said advanced technology penetrated pretty much every aspect of everyday life and became the normal everyday technology.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by Sambot »

One of my off and on projects has been compiling skills from all the Palladium books. In doing so I've been trying to figure out how to apply new skill categories to older characters.

Some of the new skill categories list skills that would be in multiple locations. So the character would just use the secondary skill locations. For example, some Aquatics Skills are also Piloting Skills or Technical Skills. So selecting them depends on if the character can pick from those categories. Some skills don't list a secondary location though so common sense needs to be allowing those skills to be selected. Other Characters may not be allowed to pick from the secondary category but considering the OCC allowing the new skill category would be applicable. Mostly, I go by occupation and location when allowing newer skill categories.

A Merchant Marine works on and/or in the water so allowing them to select Aquatics skills as OCC Related or secondary skills is easy. That's regardless of whether or not they could have picked those skills from their secondary locations. A Cowboy doesn't work on or in water so wouldn't be allowed to.

An engineer or technical specialist on a spaceship would be allowed to select any Spatial Skill. A Valkyrie Pilot though, maybe just EVA.

Another way to go is to look for a different version of that OCC and use their OCC Related Skill Choices. Robotech doesn't have a Rogue skill category. Macross II does. So you could use the Macross II OCC Related Skill choices or just add that category in for the OCCs that can select those skills. In this case the Veritech Pilot still can't pick Rogue Skills as they're not allowed to the Valkyrie Pilot. The Destroid Pilot however can pick Rogue Skills as they are allowed to the Robot Defense Pilot.

Personally, I think some skills should be allowed with the GM's permission. Like you want to be a Valkyrie Pilot who spends their off duty hours cleaning out the rest of the squadron's pockets in poker games, I'd allow the Card Sharp skills to be taken as a secondary skill. I'd also allow a Cowboy on a Macross Colony ship to be able to fly a shuttle.

That's for OCCs. I haven't really gotten to Skill Programs yet but the concept would be the same. Characters who have a reason can get skills from those skill categories.


As for Mecha Combat, as I understood the skills, Piloting allowed the piloting of a class of Mecha. Basic Combat allowed one to fight in a specific type. Expert/Elite gave better training in a specific type and allowed basic combat in the other mecha of that class. So a character with the Pilot Valkyries skill could operate any Valkyrie, with skill penalties for differences in types. Mecha Combat Elite VF-1 would allow that character to fight fully with any VF-1 Valkyrie but only at a basic level in other Valkyrie types. A character with Mecha Combat Basic VF-1 could fight okay in a VF-1 but not in a VA-3.

When it comes to skills for piloting the GERLAK Mechs, my feelings are that you can go with Pilot Veritch/Valkyrie and a mecha combat skill and not have problems. Or you could have the Pilot Jet skill (to fly it) and a Pilot Robot skill (to operate the arms and legs.) and a Mecha Combat skill. If you just had one of the Piloting skills you could operate the GERWALK just not to its full capabilities.

Anyway, that's my few cents on the subject.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by jaymz »

Basic allows you to use a general class (ground, flying, etc) in combat while elite is a specific type (samas types, IAR types, X-???? Types, etc)
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Seto wrote:Granted, the GERWALKroid isn't a Valkyrie... but it's very close to one, basically being a Valkyrie stuck in GERWALK mode. I would say a specialized skill would be fine for a dedicated pilot, but that any character with Pilot Valkyrie or Pilot Civilian Valkyrie would be able to muddle through with no real impediment to performance.

Actually I don't think there is a need for a specialized pilot skill but anyone with Pilot Valkyrie/CV or Pilot Jet Fighters or even just Pilot Robots & PA would be just fine. Looking at the M2 SB pg51 OCC that deals with AGA-1F regularly, they have Pilot CV, Pilot Jet Fighters, Pilot Helicopters (with a note "Includes all VTOLS") any one of which a case could be made apply to the AGA-1F.

Pilot Jet from a strictly RPG perspective Rick/Hikaru did not have Pilot V in Ep1-3, he would have still been operating under Pilot Jet when he operated the VT-1D, so a GERWALK/Guardian-style vehicle would appear to be covered by Pilot Jet.

Pilot R&P would still apply because it is technically a robot vehicle, though I could see requiring some type of additional flying skill, and megaversally Rifts does have a few Flying Robot Vehicles that do not require a specialized piloting skill (Robot Combat yes), I would still require a secondary flying skill personally but it is an option.

Pilot Helicopter personally I wouldn't go for it and only include it due to the "Includes all VTOLS" note, which technically the AGA-1F would fall under if the quotes is taken literally to include any aircraft (which PB classified it as) with VTOL capability (which it has), even if it isn't a technically a rotary-wing vehicle.

Robot Combat skills still apply, even if one considers it a Jet Fighter because megaversally Rifts (PW specifically) introduces Fighter Combat Skills that are essentially Robot Combat skills for (space) Fighters.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Sambot wrote:As for Mecha Combat, as I understood the skills, Piloting allowed the piloting of a class of Mecha. Basic Combat allowed one to fight in a specific type. Expert/Elite gave better training in a specific type and allowed basic combat in the other mecha of that class. So a character with the Pilot Valkyries skill could operate any Valkyrie, with skill penalties for differences in types. Mecha Combat Elite VF-1 would allow that character to fight fully with any VF-1 Valkyrie but only at a basic level in other Valkyrie types. A character with Mecha Combat Basic VF-1 could fight okay in a VF-1 but not in a VA-3.

Given that the controls of VFs are so thoroughly standardized, my take has been that the Basic skill covers a category of craft and the Elite skill confers extensive familiarity with a specific model.

Macross II's line art clearly shows that the controls and cockpit setups for the VF-2 series VFs like the Valkyrie II and Icarus are effectively identical. The VA-1SS Metal Siren's cockpit is set up a little differently but the controls are still almost unchanged. This, to a certain extent, justifies pilots like Maj. Nex Gilbert displaying proficiency on two or more current-model VFs during the OVA. Nex flew all three in combat with no apparent difficulty.

The same is broadly true of main timeline Macross VFs, with the basic control setup being essentially standard from the Block 6 VF-1 Valkyrie onwards and many 2nd Generation VFs reusing the VF-1's cockpit hardware outright, so transitioning from one mode of VF to another is much smoother than the extensive retraining process required for transitioning between two models of real world fighters. (Made even smoother in late 4th and 5th Generation VFs with the adoption of a literally-portable control armature.)



ShadowLogan wrote:Actually I don't think there is a need for a specialized pilot skill but anyone with Pilot Valkyrie/CV or Pilot Jet Fighters or even just Pilot Robots & PA would be just fine. Looking at the M2 SB pg51 OCC that deals with AGA-1F regularly, they have Pilot CV, Pilot Jet Fighters, Pilot Helicopters (with a note "Includes all VTOLS") any one of which a case could be made apply to the AGA-1F.

Yeah, but RAW also lists the GERWALKroid as a GROUND MECHA. I'm not particularly interested in RAW where RAW is demonstrably nonsense or overtly contradicts the official setting materials.

Someone with Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie should be right at home minus the weapons since the VC-054 and VC-079 Civilian Valkyries don't have a Battroid mode and they would be fully qualified on flight in GERWALK mode. Pilot: Jet Fighters or Pilot: Helicopters... less so. This is fundamentally different than either of those. Hikaru muddled through because he wasn't attempting to actually maneuver, he just needed/wanted straight-line flight to get out of Dodge.

Come to that, Pilot: Robots & Power Armor shouldn't be one skill. Those are two VERY different disciplines in Macross, and depending on how technical you want to get it could be said that the Macross universe(s) didn't even HAVE something that could strictly be defined as powered armor until Macross 7 Trash. The Zentradi and Meltrandi battle suits in Macross II are a very different kind of mecha that requires cybernetic implants to operate too, since the tie directly into the pilot's brain. For consistency's sake I ended up splitting it into three skills:
  • Pilot: Destroid for UN Forces ground mecha
  • Pilot: Powered Battle Suit for Zentradi and Meltrandi suits like the Nousjadeul-Ger or Queadluun-Rau
  • Pilot: Mobile Battle Suit for flight-capable non-transforming robots like the renegade Zentradi Migg Pitt suit or the Mardook Gigamesh units in Macross II.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by Sambot »

jaymz wrote:Basic allows you to use a general class (ground, flying, etc) in combat while elite is a specific type (samas types, IAR types, X-???? Types, etc)



Something like that although it appears to be more general for basic.



Seto Kaiba wrote:Given that the controls of VFs are so thoroughly standardized, my take has been that the Basic skill covers a category of craft and the Elite skill confers extensive familiarity with a specific model.

Macross II's line art clearly shows that the controls and cockpit setups for the VF-2 series VFs like the Valkyrie II and Icarus are effectively identical. The VA-1SS Metal Siren's cockpit is set up a little differently but the controls are still almost unchanged. This, to a certain extent, justifies pilots like Maj. Nex Gilbert displaying proficiency on two or more current-model VFs during the OVA. Nex flew all three in combat with no apparent difficulty.

The same is broadly true of main timeline Macross VFs, with the basic control setup being essentially standard from the Block 6 VF-1 Valkyrie onwards and many 2nd Generation VFs reusing the VF-1's cockpit hardware outright, so transitioning from one mode of VF to another is much smoother than the extensive retraining process required for transitioning between two models of real world fighters. (Made even smoother in late 4th and 5th Generation VFs with the adoption of a literally-portable control armature.)


Having similar cockpits helps with the Piloting skill. The more similar they are, the lower the penalty. Fighting is another matter because of the difference in weapons systems. The controls may be similar but if you're used to using a gun pod and the new VF doesn't have one, that's going to throw you off.


Yeah, but RAW also lists the GERWALKroid as a GROUND MECHA. I'm not particularly interested in RAW where RAW is demonstrably nonsense or overtly contradicts the official setting materials.

Someone with Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie should be right at home minus the weapons since the VC-054 and VC-079 Civilian Valkyries don't have a Battroid mode and they would be fully qualified on flight in GERWALK mode. Pilot: Jet Fighters or Pilot: Helicopters... less so. This is fundamentally different than either of those. Hikaru muddled through because he wasn't attempting to actually maneuver, he just needed/wanted straight-line flight to get out of Dodge.


Actually he did do some maneuvering when trying to get away from Battle Pods. He was flying though so he was using his Piloting Jet skill. He had to have instruction on how to use the Valkyries limbs. That instruction is what let him shoot the one Battle Pod. That would be where the Robot Piloting skill comes in.



Come to that, Pilot: Robots & Power Armor shouldn't be one skill. Those are two VERY different disciplines in Macross, and depending on how technical you want to get it could be said that the Macross universe(s) didn't even HAVE something that could strictly be defined as powered armor until Macross 7 Trash. The Zentradi and Meltrandi battle suits in Macross II are a very different kind of mecha that requires cybernetic implants to operate too, since the tie directly into the pilot's brain. For consistency's sake I ended up splitting it into three skills:
  • Pilot: Destroid for UN Forces ground mecha
  • Pilot: Powered Battle Suit for Zentradi and Meltrandi suits like the Nousjadeul-Ger or Queadluun-Rau
  • Pilot: Mobile Battle Suit for flight-capable non-transforming robots like the renegade Zentradi Migg Pitt suit or the Mardook Gigamesh units in Macross II.


I agree. Power Armor is fundamentally different from a Robot. They shouldn't be one skill. In fact I think that goes for every game.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Seto I do not disagree that Robots & Power Armor should be separate skills (they are in 1E RT with IIRC 11 separate pilot mecha skills, 2E RT isn't any different, but M2 and Rifts both lump them into one skill), but if the AGA-1F can be considered a Robot Vehicle (and with arms and legs it could) then that skill would also be applicable. IIRC all the UN Destroids in M2 have flight capability in space, further supporting that the skill can include flying non-transformable robots. So why create a new skill, if an existing skill/skill-combo-setup can cover it (from a game mechanic perspective, not in-universe).

Pilot: Civilian Valkryie** in M2 setting, the only example for it's use lacks arms like the AGA-1F, making it just as applicable as the Pilot Jet skill (personally I do not support Helicopter, I only include it due to poor wording on PB's part). Hikaru shows that Pilot Jet is enough to operate that particular mode, he may not have been the best pilot (his rescue of Minmei in Ep2 certainly goes beyond simple flight) but combat flying/maneuvering IMHO is covered by the Robot Combat: Elite skill which he would not have had.

**by RAW in the Macross 2 RPG this skill also covers small Commercial Jets, which IMHO makes it redundant with Pilot Jet Aircraft.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by ESalter »

green.nova343 wrote:The main reason I wanted to keep them separate was actually kind of in line with your thinking about the Marduk/Mardook & the Protoculture. The Marduk/Mardook may have their own Zentran & Meltran soldiers, but their mere existence is a complete surprise to the UN Spacy. Whether from the perspective of standard Macross/Robotech continuity or DYRL/Macross 2 continuity, I would have assumed that Breetai/Kridanik & Exedore/Exsedol would have shared all of their knowledge of the various Zentraedi forces & factions with the UN Spacy after throwing in their lot with humanity (especially since DYRL/Macross II continuity, & possibly even standard Macross continuity, implies a much vaster Zentraedi force than we see on the Robotech side -- Dolza/Boddole Zer was commander of the "118th" Zentraedi Fleet, right? Even if only 1 in 10 of those fleets was still around, that's a lot more Zentraedi/Zentran & Meltran ships than we ever see on the Robotech side. And even if they had become factionalized over the years & perhaps lost touch with each other, I would think the knowledge of a faction of Zentran & Meltran warriors controlled & led by "Micronians" of any sort (let alone whether they were led by a being that considered himself a "god") -- especially given that said faction actually used both the male Zentran & female Zentran warriors, given that the two factions usually seemed to be antagonistic to each other -- would be noteworthy & quirky enough that it would have been in any databases that were shared with the UN Spacy High Command. Even having the remote possibility of a force like that would have at least been thought about & planned for, given how badly Terra had been battered by a single Zentraedi/Zentran fleet, yet despite facing ships that, while similar enough to standard Zentran designs, had noticeable enough physical differences that should have triggered something in the fleet/flotilla commanders that first encountered them to say, "Hold up a second, these aren't our typical Zentran opponents, maybe they could be these 'Mardook' the Zentran legends talk about, let's be a little more cautious here", instead of their "Oh, hey, it's some Zentran ships entering Sol System, their ships look a little funky but they're close enough to Zent standard that we're not going to worry about it, just fire up the Minmay Attack Satellites & we'll let them 'come at us in the same old way' so that we can 'kill them in the same'...What the f***!! What the h***, why isn't the Minmay Attack working?!?!!" reaction we had.


The Galaxy is a big place; I assume no previous alien force had ever encountered the Marduk.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

ShadowLogan wrote:Seto I do not disagree that Robots & Power Armor should be separate skills (they are in 1E RT with IIRC 11 separate pilot mecha skills, 2E RT isn't any different, but M2 and Rifts both lump them into one skill), but if the AGA-1F can be considered a Robot Vehicle (and with arms and legs it could) then that skill would also be applicable. IIRC all the UN Destroids in M2 have flight capability in space, further supporting that the skill can include flying non-transformable robots.

As noted previously, the GERWALKroid (correct name) doesn't even belong to the same category of mecha as the "Ground Mecha" given that it is explicitly an aerial mecha... lumping it in with them is every bit as bizarre as lumping an attack helicopter in with tanks. (Incidentally, having arms and legs is pretty close to irrelevant in terms of control since that's all handled by the airframe control AI's software. Unless the pilot manually asserts control of a limb, that's entirely outside his realm of responsibility.)

Also, with respect to the alleged flight capability... no idea where they got THAT idea. Destroids have always had verniers to help themselves maneuver back onto a ship's deck if they are knocked off, but they are very definitely NOT what you'd call "flight-capable". Their whole schtick is that they stay on the ship.

There should be at least one more category for non-transformable flight-capable robotic weapons. Ideally more than one, since the aforementioned control differences between the cybernetics-based control system of the Zentran and Meltran battle suits and the more traditional controls of the Gigamesh and GERWALKroid are pretty significant. If the ability to operate one were portable to the other I'd say sure, make it one skill but we're talking about a difference major enough to require anatomical modification.



ShadowLogan wrote:Pilot: Civilian Valkryie** in M2 setting, the only example for it's use lacks arms like the AGA-1F, making it just as applicable as the Pilot Jet skill (personally I do not support Helicopter, I only include it due to poor wording on PB's part).

Ironically, once you get past the difference in propulsion, Helicopter would actually be an acceptable fit given how GERWALK mode works.

But in terms of Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie, I would tend to assert that it should be a separate skill because they represent a distinct class of vehicles where the skill would theoretically be portable to other VFs minus the ability to operate Battroid mode.



ShadowLogan wrote:Hikaru shows that Pilot Jet is enough to operate that particular mode, he may not have been the best pilot (his rescue of Minmei in Ep2 certainly goes beyond simple flight) but combat flying/maneuvering IMHO is covered by the Robot Combat: Elite skill which he would not have had.

Hikaru was able to fly in straight lines, more or less, but when the time came to do anything else he basically botched it epically... which I would interpret more along the lines of making piloting rolls at a penalty for GERWALK mode flight and failing utterly without a skill when called upon to do something as simple as stand up, take a step, or maintain his balance.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Seto wrote:As noted previously, the GERWALKroid (correct name) doesn't even belong to the same category of mecha as the "Ground Mecha" given that it is explicitly an aerial mecha... lumping it in with them is every bit as bizarre as lumping an attack helicopter in with tanks. (Incidentally, having arms and legs is pretty close to irrelevant in terms of control since that's all handled by the airframe control AI's software. Unless the pilot manually asserts control of a limb, that's entirely outside his realm of responsibility.)

While I agree it isn't technically a ground mecha, it would make sense if the unit was part of the "ground forces", at least that is how I take it.

If having arms and legs is irrelevant to control for the Macross/M2 settings to be classified as a Robot for piloting skill, then a GERWALKroid could be handled by Pilot Jet Fighter unless the pilot was looking to take manual control of the limbs.

Seto wrote:Also, with respect to the alleged flight capability... no idea where they got THAT idea. Destroids have always had verniers to help themselves maneuver back onto a ship's deck if they are knocked off, but they are very definitely NOT what you'd call "flight-capable". Their whole schtick is that they stay on the ship.

It might be that capability you describe being taken to an extreme. If you have powered maneuvering thrusters for space operations, that would qualify as flight in a lot of people's mind (and some players might attempt to use it beyond its intended purpose, so flight capability).

Seto wrote:There should be at least one more category for non-transformable flight-capable robotic weapons. Ideally more than one, since the aforementioned control differences between the cybernetics-based control system of the Zentran and Meltran battle suits and the more traditional controls of the Gigamesh and GERWALKroid are pretty significant. If the ability to operate one were portable to the other I'd say sure, make it one skill but we're talking about a difference major enough to require anatomical modification.

While I agree that R&PA should be split up, I am not sure it is necessary to go overboard in breaking the skill down to far (1E RT did it to an extreme, 2E to a much lesser extent). I think it would be easier for the cybernetic augment suits to still be lumped under a general pilot power armor skill with the finer points coming from RC: Elite skill, but it should be obvious if you don't have the implants the suit won't work is a suitable game mechanical balance IMHO.

I think Rifts has a workable approach to the situation, and that is that if it is alien/unfamiliar you take penalties, even if it using the same skill or it might not even be useable (size, psioinic power, intended anatomy). Rifts as of the UE update in the early 2000s the pilot skill just delt with the fundamentals and the RC skill expanded upon it for specific model. This allows for some greater narrative freedom, if Bob the Valk pilot wants to learn to pilot the captured transforming Marduk unit, he can do so a lot easier now as he only needs RC: Elite for it costing 1 skill slot instead of 2 (pilot and RC) which at higher levels isn't possible in a RAW skill progression (limited to 1 per level, if using homebrew the progression might be different/more forgiving).

Seto wrote:But in terms of Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie, I would tend to assert that it should be a separate skill because they represent a distinct class of vehicles where the skill would theoretically be portable to other VFs minus the ability to operate Battroid mode.

I would assert the skill is largely redundant. While it is a civilian model, it could be just as easy to simply use the regular VF piloting skill from a game mechanic perspective (in-universe could be handled by licenses which are mentioned in the OVA IIRC) and leave the combat aspects to the RC: Elite skill.

Seto wrote:Hikaru was able to fly in straight lines, more or less, but when the time came to do anything else he basically botched it epically... which I would interpret more along the lines of making piloting rolls at a penalty for GERWALK mode flight and failing utterly without a skill when called upon to do something as simple as stand up, take a step, or maintain his balance.

Hikaru though wasn't a combat pilot at this point, his operation of the VF-1 even in fighter mode wasn't much better when you get down to it. Hikaru only demonstrates real issues with operating in Battroid mode when he couldn't standup/walk, once in GERWALK his ability seems to greatly improve in terms of control (Fokker's crash course probably helped to), until it got shot down (he couldn't maneuver aggressive either since Minmei was in the mecha's hand when he came under fire, the sequence in Ep3 I take to be from damage).
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

ShadowLogan wrote:While I agree it isn't technically a ground mecha, it would make sense if the unit was part of the "ground forces", at least that is how I take it.

For the record, the GERWALKroid is only seen in space in the OVA... and strictly speaking it's an aircraft.



ShadowLogan wrote:If having arms and legs is irrelevant to control for the Macross/M2 settings to be classified as a Robot for piloting skill, then a GERWALKroid could be handled by Pilot Jet Fighter unless the pilot was looking to take manual control of the limbs.

Ideally, the distinction between what Pilot skill is appropriate for a particular vehicle [is/should be] made in terms of how the vehicle is controlled and what it handles like. You wouldn't expect someone who is qualified to drive a car to be able to transfer that skill to flying an airplane, but you could realistically expect them to transfer that skill at least partially to doing something like drive a large truck or a small hovercraft. Because VFs have three very different ways to maneuver, realistically skills intended for a single form vehicle would/should only apply to one form. GERWALK mode maneuvering is very different from flying a fighter jet, since you're dealing with a mecha that is staying up with sustained thrust not lift, your speeds are lower, there's much greater agility, and you also have to deal with maneuvering on the ground or the deck of a ship by walking.

As with Hikaru's example earlier, I'd allow Pilot: Jet Fighter to be used for someone to simply fly a GERWALKroid in a straight line in extremis but I wouldn't give them any bonuses (or maybe even hit them with penalties) if they attempted to handle it in a non-jet manner because that's very different from what their skill represents training in.



ShadowLogan wrote:It might be that capability you describe being taken to an extreme. If you have powered maneuvering thrusters for space operations, that would qualify as flight in a lot of people's mind (and some players might attempt to use it beyond its intended purpose, so flight capability).

I'd hope most people would have enough common sense to consider flight as "sustainable" maneuvering... the verniers on Destroids are meant for emergency use in the event the mecha is knocked off the deck of a ship to push itself back towards the ship's gravity envelope. It's not enough to get the mecha moving at any significant speed, dodge, or anything else that you would ordinarily call flight. In theory, they don't even produce enough thrust for a Destroid to escape the gravitational envelope around the ship's deck.



ShadowLogan wrote:While I agree that R&PA should be split up, I am not sure it is necessary to go overboard in breaking the skill down to far (1E RT did it to an extreme, 2E to a much lesser extent). I think it would be easier for the cybernetic augment suits to still be lumped under a general pilot power armor skill with the finer points coming from RC: Elite skill, but it should be obvious if you don't have the implants the suit won't work is a suitable game mechanical balance IMHO.

My reason for splitting them up like that is, in part, to protect against a condition where a character acquires the necessary implants (and yes, this is possible in canon). Even with them, the battle suit controls very differently to something like a Destroid. Too much for the skill to be called portable to other types of mecha, IMO. It may not be the most streamlined thing in the world, but what I go in for is veracity to the setting wherever possible.



ShadowLogan wrote:I would assert the skill is largely redundant. While it is a civilian model, it could be just as easy to simply use the regular VF piloting skill from a game mechanic perspective (in-universe could be handled by licenses which are mentioned in the OVA IIRC) and leave the combat aspects to the RC: Elite skill.

If we were talking main timeline Macross where Civilian Valkyries are not a separate and distinct class of mecha, I would agree with you.

However, a Civilian Valkyrie pilot lacks any training in Battroid mode in Macross II are is not trained in combat flying so IMO it does make tolerable sense for it to be a separate skill albeit for a very specific set of circumstances.



ShadowLogan wrote:Hikaru though wasn't a combat pilot at this point, his operation of the VF-1 even in fighter mode wasn't much better when you get down to it. Hikaru only demonstrates real issues with operating in Battroid mode when he couldn't standup/walk, once in GERWALK his ability seems to greatly improve in terms of control (Fokker's crash course probably helped to), until it got shot down (he couldn't maneuver aggressive either since Minmei was in the mecha's hand when he came under fire, the sequence in Ep3 I take to be from damage).

Eh, he had little difficulty trying to fly the GERWALK mode VF-1D like a jet but when it came to things like walking or engaging in un-jetlike manevering he had trouble. Like when he tried to walk and fell over because he didn't realize the dead Zentradi had a grip on the Valkyrie's leg.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Seto wrote:For the record, the GERWALKroid is only seen in space in the OVA... and strictly speaking it's an aircraft.

I'm not aruging the depiction, I'm just trying to explain the classification. It isn't like Destroids aren't also deployed in space.

Seto wrote:I'd hope most people would have enough common sense to consider flight as "sustainable" maneuvering... the verniers on Destroids are meant for emergency use in the event the mecha is knocked off the deck of a ship to push itself back towards the ship's gravity envelope. It's not enough to get the mecha moving at any significant speed, dodge, or anything else that you would ordinarily call flight. In theory, they don't even produce enough thrust for a Destroid to escape the gravitational envelope around the ship's deck.

IF we where talking about Atmospheric Flight I would agree, but since it is qualified as space flight the expected rules are a bit different. The Space Shuttle (and every manned capsule) "fly" in space, but they do not have their engines firing constantly, even the 3 shuttle missions in '84 with an astronaut(s) flew independent of the Shuttle and no tether via MMU did not fire their thrusters constantly. Takeoff from the Hull is a GM call.

Seto wrote:My reason for splitting them up like that is, in part, to protect against a condition where a character acquires the necessary implants (and yes, this is possible in canon). Even with them, the battle suit controls very differently to something like a Destroid. Too much for the skill to be called portable to other types of mecha, IMO. It may not be the most streamlined thing in the world, but what I go in for is veracity to the setting wherever possible.

My reason for keeping the list to a minimum for this, is in part that use of Cybernetics (in general) does not require specialized skills (some implants could take advantage of regular skills), but to pilot mecha effectively in combat requires the expenditure of 2 skill slots (in RAW, well more really but those additional skills are broadbased). Outside of character creation, in RAW acquiring new skills tends to skew toward 1 skill at a new level and its not every level. So even if the character acquired the implants (which as GM you can control), they would typically need 2 level ups that grant skills to use them effectively (though megaversally there is the teaching option that gets around this).

Really the RAW skills description itself provides some protection. While by RAW a character w/implants could pilot the mecha they would not be able to apply RC: Basic because the PA suits could technically be considered "other flying combat machines" which would mean RC: Basic wouldn't apply (so they would enter combat with just the HTH). Further protection also comes from the fact all Pilot R&PA does is universal fundamentals, the RC: Elite skill includes "quirks" for specific designs which use of the implants could be considered as.

Seto wrote:However, a Civilian Valkyrie pilot lacks any training in Battroid mode in Macross II are is not trained in combat flying so IMO it does make tolerable sense for it to be a separate skill albeit for a very specific set of circumstances.

COMBAT training is supposed to come from taking RC: Elite, not the piloting skill. Though IIRC the Pilot Valk is writen to include combat tactics, but that aspect could be moved toward taking the actual RC: Elite skill(s) bringing it more inline with the way the megaversal approach to this skill combo.

As for Battroid mode, all I'll offer is the option of unknown Civilian Models with a Battroid mode for other roles. The one civilian model I know of in the setting is the VC-079, the high numbering would imply there are other civilian models (which likely have to be filled in by the GM).

Seto wrote:Ideally, the distinction between what Pilot skill is appropriate for a particular vehicle [is/should be] made in terms of how the vehicle is controlled and what it handles like. You wouldn't expect someone who is qualified to drive a car to be able to transfer that skill to flying an airplane, but you could realistically expect them to transfer that skill at least partially to doing something like drive a large truck or a small hovercraft. Because VFs have three very different ways to maneuver, realistically skills intended for a single form vehicle would/should only apply to one form. GERWALK mode maneuvering is very different from flying a fighter jet, since you're dealing with a mecha that is staying up with sustained thrust not lift, your speeds are lower, there's much greater agility, and you also have to deal with maneuvering on the ground or the deck of a ship by walkin

Ideally I agree, but when you consider that there are aircraft* that fall under the Jet Fighter skill that enter modes/realms where they are sustained by thrust instead of lift, the only real thing the Gerwalk mode/-oid has over these vehicles is the use of the arms then and nothing requires the use of the arms (which depending on the action being done might be largely computer controlled anyway).

*AV-8 (Attack, but the British used it in Air-Air in the Falklands), X/F-35, X-32 (non-selected competitor), YAK-38, YAK-141 (did not enter production), Germans used the F-104 as the basis for a VTOL fighter for research, French also had converted one of the Mirage Fighter models into VTOL for research. Not to mention potential Tail-Sitters

Seto wrote:Eh, he had little difficulty trying to fly the GERWALK mode VF-1D like a jet but when it came to things like walking or engaging in un-jetlike manevering he had trouble. Like when he tried to walk and fell over because he didn't realize the dead Zentradi had a grip on the Valkyrie's leg.

I always put that down to mechanical/psychological issues in RT as opposed to a death grip by the Zentreadi solider or skill. Fokker could have shot the hand off (or pryed it loose or cut it free with the head lasers), but instead seemed to come to the conclusion the unit was no longer in an operational state and repairs where not possible (either due to severity or situation) forcing the use of the escape capsule.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

ShadowLogan wrote:I'm not aruging the depiction, I'm just trying to explain the classification. It isn't like Destroids aren't also deployed in space.

Destroids are, as a rule, bound to the deck of the ship they're stationed aboard. The GERWALKroid isn't.



ShadowLogan wrote:IF we where talking about Atmospheric Flight I would agree, but since it is qualified as space flight the expected rules are a bit different.

The RPG doesn't treat space flight differently from atmospheric flight except in terms of achievable speed for simplicity's sake.

Destroids are not flight-capable. The verniers they are equipped with are low-thrust models meant for emergency attitude control and self-rescue in the event that a Destroid is knocked off the deck of its mothership, and have very little propellant available to them because that's all they're for. Even RAW doesn't make these Destroids flight capable without the addition of some (non-canonical) extra hardware.



ShadowLogan wrote:My reason for keeping the list to a minimum for this, is in part that use of Cybernetics (in general) does not require specialized skills (some implants could take advantage of regular skills), but to pilot mecha effectively in combat requires the expenditure of 2 skill slots (in RAW, well more really but those additional skills are broadbased). Outside of character creation, in RAW acquiring new skills tends to skew toward 1 skill at a new level and its not every level. So even if the character acquired the implants (which as GM you can control), they would typically need 2 level ups that grant skills to use them effectively (though megaversally there is the teaching option that gets around this).

Now here's a question for you... cybernetics in-game covers mostly limb or sensory-organ replacement. What does it require, megaversally, to include new extremities the subject did not possess in its normal purely biological state? Because that's kind of where the difference lies. These are essentially cybernetically-controlled mecha that possess things a biological body doesn't like extra limbs (the Nousjaedul-Ger's plasma cannon), verniers, and plasma rockets for flight.



ShadowLogan wrote:COMBAT training is supposed to come from taking RC: Elite, not the piloting skill. Though IIRC the Pilot Valk is writen to include combat tactics, but that aspect could be moved toward taking the actual RC: Elite skill(s) bringing it more inline with the way the megaversal approach to this skill combo.

Eh... tactics are one thing, but the actual style of flight both in terms of procedures and learned maneuvers and reactions is different between a civilian pilot and military one even outside of combat like carrier-based recovery operations and such.


ShadowLogan wrote:As for Battroid mode, all I'll offer is the option of unknown Civilian Models with a Battroid mode for other roles. The one civilian model I know of in the setting is the VC-079, the high numbering would imply there are other civilian models (which likely have to be filled in by the GM).

Gentle reminder: we are talking about Macross here, not Robotech. Unfounded supposition isn't necessary. This setting is well-developed enough that most questions have actual answers.

For the record, there are only two models of Civilian Valkyrie in the Macross II timeline. The reason for the high number is that, as a non-military vehicle, the manufacturer (the Takachihoff Corp) uses a Type number system with the year the design was initially produced. The model number, therefore, has no actual connection to the number of actual models developed. The Takachihoff Corp's first Civilian Valkyrie model was the VC-054 that the company put into production in 2054. The VC-079 is its second offering in that category, which entered production in 2079. (The Takachihoff Corp could be said to basically be the Anaheim Electronics of the Macross II timeline in that they have a monopoly or near-monopoly on VF development.)

The Takachihoff Corporation is named for Dr. H. Takachihoff, one of the VF-1 Valkyrie's lead designers who rallied the engineers aboard the Macross during the First Space War to support the war effort with onboard production of essential updates and equipment and later founded his own company after the war. He is named in honor of Studio Nue cofounder Kimiyoshi Takakawa, known better under his penname Haruka Takachiho, the creator of Crusher Joe and Dirty Pair.



ShadowLogan wrote:Ideally I agree, but when you consider that there are aircraft* that fall under the Jet Fighter skill that enter modes/realms where they are sustained by thrust instead of lift, the only real thing the Gerwalk mode/-oid has over these vehicles is the use of the arms then and nothing requires the use of the arms (which depending on the action being done might be largely computer controlled anyway).

But only as a temporary condition for takeoff or landing... not as a standard mode of operation. The GERWALKroid, like a VF's GERWALK mode, is flying sustainably on thrust-based lift. Something like a tiltrotor might be more analogous, but even those can't maneuver in the way a GERWALK or GERWALKroid can.



ShadowLogan wrote:I always put that down to mechanical/psychological issues in RT as opposed to a death grip by the Zentreadi solider or skill. Fokker could have shot the hand off (or pryed it loose or cut it free with the head lasers), but instead seemed to come to the conclusion the unit was no longer in an operational state and repairs where not possible (either due to severity or situation) forcing the use of the escape capsule.

While that VF-1D was damaged, there was nothing preventing it from flying or walking away except the death grip that Zentradi soldier had on its leg and its pilot having been traumatized by a series of near-death experiences and the general horrors of war. A trained pilot qualified on GERWALK mode would have noticed the obstruction from in-cockpit warnings or situational awareness.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

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Seto wrote:The RPG doesn't treat space flight differently from atmospheric flight except in terms of achievable speed for simplicity's sake.

While that is true to a certain extent it has to be remembered that there are numerous instances where the option of flight is situationally restricted though. Not every platform that can fly in space can do so in an atmosphere.

Seto wrote:Now here's a question for you... cybernetics in-game covers mostly limb or sensory-organ replacement. What does it require, megaversally, to include new extremities the subject did not possess in its normal purely biological state? Because that's kind of where the difference lies. These are essentially cybernetically-controlled mecha that possess things a biological body doesn't like extra limbs (the Nousjaedul-Ger's plasma cannon), verniers, and plasma rockets for flight.

From a skill standpoint, megaversally there is no skill required for a human to be put into a full cyborg body that would have extra limbs (arms) or even non-humanoid limbs (tentacles, tails, vehicular legs, Centaur lower-body), which can also include built-in weapons (which fall under normal WP use). That is looking at known FCBs found in Rifts and the Power Category of Heroes Unlimited (Ninjas and Super Spies also has cybernetics, but IINM it's C&P into HU). There IS an adjustment period, but nothing you could define as a skill*.

There are over 150 Power Armor units in the Rifts setting (and an equal number of piloted Robot Vehicles). 20 of those Power Armor are out right stated (or implied) to blur the line between a Robot Vehicle and Power Armor suit. There is one PA suit that has a snake-like lower body and no legs**, 3-bipedal dinosaur shaped PA, 1 with reverse articulated legs, but all are piloted by a normal humanoid frame. There are also (at least) 2 Power Armor that have multi-limb setups (possibly more depending on how many points of articulation you are calling for), and most PA have some form of ranged weapon system that is not handheld (and firing mechanism isn't stated).

This might be an instance where diving too deep into the technical aspects is going to make things more complicated than they need to be from a game perspective.

*The only skill you might get for multi-limbs would be WP: Paired, but that is not universally applied IINM. What is universally applied is a bonus attack for an extra pair of arms or addition of a tail, but that really isn't a skill per say.
**two technically, but the 2nd one is operated by a race that is not humanoid

Seto wrote:Eh... tactics are one thing, but the actual style of flight both in terms of procedures and learned maneuvers and reactions is different between a civilian pilot and military one even outside of combat like carrier-based recovery operations and such.

RC: Elite as I said doesn't just include tactics, it includes piloting related to specific models. "...and quirks that make each a specific and unique type of machine." Quirks to me would be handling and other aspects unique to that design.

Seto wrote:Gentle reminder: we are talking about Macross here, not Robotech. Unfounded supposition isn't necessary. This setting is well-developed enough that most questions have actual answers.

I know, but that does not mean a GM can not add-in additional Civilian Models in their campaign setting or future ones could not be included/recton in canon.

Seto wrote:But only as a temporary condition for takeoff or landing... not as a standard mode of operation. The GERWALKroid, like a VF's GERWALK mode, is flying sustainably on thrust-based lift. Something like a tiltrotor might be more analogous, but even those can't maneuver in the way a GERWALK or GERWALKroid can.

Except we know that for the GERWALK Mode that is not always the case (Ep2 approx. @19:22, the legs are pointed backward in horizontal flight). And out in space, there isn't a need for thrust-based lift, which means the legs could reposition. Gerwalk-roid/mode really only needs the thrust to sustain lift when its speed below a given threshold (unless it doesn't have wings, like the Mospeada Legois in its equivalent full G mode).

Seto wrote:While that VF-1D was damaged, there was nothing preventing it from flying or walking away except the death grip that Zentradi soldier had on its leg and its pilot having been traumatized by a series of near-death experiences and the general horrors of war. A trained pilot qualified on GERWALK mode would have noticed the obstruction from in-cockpit warnings or situational awareness.

And yet Fokker elected to activate the escape capsule on the VT-1D, instead of freeing it as he could easily have done. To me this indicates the VT-1D wasn't operational, even if it did not look like it.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

ShadowLogan wrote:While that is true to a certain extent it has to be remembered that there are numerous instances where the option of flight is situationally restricted though. Not every platform that can fly in space can do so in an atmosphere.

There is that, yes... but mechanically it's not treated any differently. The game doesn't account for realistic concerns like propellant consumption and so on.

RT2e actually has the right of it when it comes to Destroids and "flight", listing them as being capable of only righting themselves and returning to a standing position on a ship's deck when knocked off or over.



ShadowLogan wrote:From a skill standpoint, megaversally there is no skill required for a human to be put into a full cyborg body that would have extra limbs (arms) or even non-humanoid limbs (tentacles, tails, vehicular legs, Centaur lower-body), which can also include built-in weapons (which fall under normal WP use). That is looking at known FCBs found in Rifts and the Power Category of Heroes Unlimited (Ninjas and Super Spies also has cybernetics, but IINM it's C&P into HU). There IS an adjustment period, but nothing you could define as a skill*.

Well, there's the alternative then... instead of having a Pilot skill for the Zentran and Meltran battle suits, just have the player roll as if engaging in combat on foot.



ShadowLogan wrote:This might be an instance where diving too deep into the technical aspects is going to make things more complicated than they need to be from a game perspective.

I'd be hesitant to take examples from Palladium's other games too seriously given Kevin's distant but cordial relationship with science and technology terminology.

(Like how the Macross II game mixes up thermonuclear fusion with nuclear fission.)



ShadowLogan wrote:I know, but that does not mean a GM can not add-in additional Civilian Models in their campaign setting or future ones could not be included/recton in canon.

Since the topic is about updating the Macross II game's existing contents to RT2e rules and such, let's not start a sidebar about fanmade material.



ShadowLogan wrote:Except we know that for the GERWALK Mode that is not always the case (Ep2 approx. @19:22, the legs are pointed backward in horizontal flight). And out in space, there isn't a need for thrust-based lift, which means the legs could reposition. Gerwalk-roid/mode really only needs the thrust to sustain lift when its speed below a given threshold (unless it doesn't have wings, like the Mospeada Legois in its equivalent full G mode).

This is looping back to the aforementioned "Hikaru tries to operate the GERWALK-mode VF-1 like a plane" thing... and also because he couldn't switch back to Fighter mode with the arms deployed to hold Minmay. It's an abnormal operating condition.



ShadowLogan wrote:And yet Fokker elected to activate the escape capsule on the VT-1D, instead of freeing it as he could easily have done. To me this indicates the VT-1D wasn't operational, even if it did not look like it.

Nothing in that scene indicates that there was anything mechanically wrong with the VF-1D in question beyond a little battle damage. Certainly not to the extent of it being unable to walk or fly. Roy's own dialog points to that dead Zentradi's death grip on it as the reason he chose to just eject the cockpit and take that part back with him. (A view supported by Macross Chronicle's Episode Sheet.)
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

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ShadowLogan wrote:So even if the character acquired the implants (which as GM you can control), they would typically need 2 level ups that grant skills to use them effectively (though megaversally there is the teaching option that gets around this).


What is this holy grail (teaching option) and where can I find it?
Sincerely the biggest hole in our play style, since we switched to palladium. We literally have a guy who is technically barred from ever being able to load a pistol correctly. Also another character who defaulted to his attribute for climbing, making boot camp a nightmare. If there is any way, to legitimately have a character learn a new skill in this system, then I'd be happy to know how.
Especially since it is very weird not being able to teach anything to anyone, considering the available settings.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

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xunk16 wrote:What is this holy grail (teaching option) and where can I find it?

Heroes Unlimited Main RPG (pg48) and Rifts Ultimate Edition's Rogue Scholar OCC (pg93 Ability #1), other examples exists IIRC but I'm not going to look for them. Rifts (as RT/M2) uses the OCC system, but its wanting for more details IMHO (it's literally 1 short paragraph long), the HU is technically set up for the Skill Program System but is a nearly half a page.

Seto wrote:There is that, yes... but mechanically it's not treated any differently. The game doesn't account for realistic concerns like propellant consumption and so on.

I would say they are mechanically treated very similar, the only real difference being when you can "fly" and "can't fly".

Seto wrote:I'd be hesitant to take examples from Palladium's other games too seriously given Kevin's distant but cordial relationship with science and technology terminology.

True, but trying to make the "game system" perfectly model the licenced product is always going to run into issues that the system might not replicate well, or bog down into something overly complicated that doesn't need to be. Robotech having two editions with vastly differnt game mechanical values for the same mecha illustrates this well, TMNT fans might be able to point out issues in their adaption and that line, Macross2 has issues to in this realm I'm sure. And I wouldn't limit myself to just Palladium system in this respect either.

Seto wrote:Since the topic is about updating the Macross II game's existing contents to RT2e rules and such, let's not start a sidebar about fanmade material.

Not saying we should sidetrack with hypothetical designs, I am just saying we should be flexible in the game rule setup (this allows importing homebrew stuff obviously, but also material not in the RPG, or for megaversal cross-overs).

Seto wrote:This is looping back to the aforementioned "Hikaru tries to operate the GERWALK-mode VF-1 like a plane" thing... and also because he couldn't switch back to Fighter mode with the arms deployed to hold Minmay. It's an abnormal operating condition.

But it shows it can be done, it might be abnormal as the GERWALK is typically shown used in close to the ground in SDF:M (and GCM to boot) as opposed to high altitude/speed flying. Going in low and slow runs into the issue of the aircraft generating insufficient lift, which is why it uses the thrusters in the first place, but if the Valkryies/GERWALKroid has wings (and many do) which means at a certain forward speed they will start to generate sufficient lift that the thrusters aren't necessary to generate lift and can be repositioned (along w/arms) for better aerodynamics.

Seto wrote:Nothing in that scene indicates that there was anything mechanically wrong with the VF-1D in question beyond a little battle damage. Certainly not to the extent of it being unable to walk or fly. Roy's own dialog points to that dead Zentradi's death grip on it as the reason he chose to just eject the cockpit and take that part back with him. (A view supported by Macross Chronicle's Episode Sheet.)

I agree visually there doesn't appear to be anything wrong (aside from the missing arm). The dialogue may point to the death grip, but it does seem like a cop-out doesn't it. I mean Roy DID have options that could have freed the VT-1D so it would be useable does he not? His decision to pop the escape capsule does seem a bit extreme doesn't it? (It'd be like replacing a computer Motherboard completely when all you need to do is make a BIOS setting adjustment).
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

ShadowLogan wrote:I would say they are mechanically treated very similar, the only real difference being when you can "fly" and "can't fly".

In this case, where Destroids are concerned it's "nowhere"... even in RAW.



ShadowLogan wrote:True, but trying to make the "game system" perfectly model the licenced product is always going to run into issues that the system might not replicate well, or bog down into something overly complicated that doesn't need to be. Robotech having two editions with vastly differnt game mechanical values for the same mecha illustrates this well, TMNT fans might be able to point out issues in their adaption and that line, Macross2 has issues to in this realm I'm sure. And I wouldn't limit myself to just Palladium system in this respect either.

One of the goals of a licensed game is to get as close as possible. Keeping gameplay streamlined and balanced is also a concern, but if your licensed game doesn't resemble the source material then you've kind of failed a basic precondition of developing a licensed game. It doesn't help that Palladium's system is overly granular when it comes to skills. A certain amount of correcting for Palladium's system fitting poorly in certain areas is expected, doubly so when you're working with a property that's been misrepresented as badly as Macross II or Robotech.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

ShadowLogan wrote:But it shows it can be done, it might be abnormal as the GERWALK is typically shown used in close to the ground in SDF:M (and GCM to boot) as opposed to high altitude/speed flying. Going in low and slow runs into the issue of the aircraft generating insufficient lift, which is why it uses the thrusters in the first place, but if the Valkryies/GERWALKroid has wings (and many do) which means at a certain forward speed they will start to generate sufficient lift that the thrusters aren't necessary to generate lift and can be repositioned (along w/arms) for better aerodynamics. [...]

Again, we haven't really moved from the position of the Pilot: Jet Fighter skill only really being good to cover a single very specific corner case in operating a GERWALKroid or GERWALK-mode VF. Given the GERWALKroid's descriptions in official material the most relevant Pilot skill for it would be Pilot: Valkyrie. Without having a dedicated skill, the next closest would be Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie and likely Pilot: Helicopter for the best match in terms of actual handling and combat performance.



ShadowLogan wrote:I agree visually there doesn't appear to be anything wrong (aside from the missing arm). The dialogue may point to the death grip, but it does seem like a cop-out doesn't it. I mean Roy DID have options that could have freed the VT-1D so it would be useable does he not? His decision to pop the escape capsule does seem a bit extreme doesn't it? (It'd be like replacing a computer Motherboard completely when all you need to do is make a BIOS setting adjustment).

Eh... there are other factors that justify Roy's decision:
  1. Roy was trying to expedite the extraction of two civilians from a still-active battlefield. They're under enemy fire less than a minute after Roy reaches Hikaru's position and the first barrage destroys the VF-1D completely.
  2. While Hikaru was, at the time, an excellent stunt pilot he was not a qualified combat pilot and would've been at much greater risk of dying while fleeing the combat area in a damaged Valkyrie that he had only a vague idea how to operate.
  3. The rendezvous point they were retreating to was the Macross on its ascent from low Earth orbit to a higher orbital path. Not only was Hikaru essentially untrained on the damaged VF-1D he had been flying up to that point, he was also completely unqualified on space flight in general and carrier operations in either regime. Even in peacetime, an extraction like that would be a gargantuan ask for an untrained pilot.

From a game perspective, I'd call Hikaru's initial outing in the VF-1D a good example of why there are seemingly redundant versions of some skills for military and non-military purposes. Hikaru was a highly talented, award-winning stunt pilot with substantial experience... but neither stunt pilots nor commercial pilots learn how to evade enemy fire or maintain situational awareness while under fire, so he's immediately overwhelmed, panicking, and gets shot down. Then, because he's only got the necessary skills for piloting propellar planes and small jets, he's completely lost when he ends up in Battroid mode and is unable to do anything other than repeatedly fall over while fumbling to stand. Then, of course, when he switches to GERWALK mode he's able to fly in a very rudimentary way to escape but once again ends up getting shot up the minute he exposes himself because he doesn't know how to operate GERWALK mode properly and ends up grounded again. Then he finds himself in actual direct combat, and proceeds to empty the GU-11A's entire magazine without actually scoring a kill on an unmoving battle pod because he has no combat skills.

That's more or less exactly what you'd expect if you tried to fight in a Valkyrie when you only have Pilot: Jet Fighter.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

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ShadowLogan wrote:
xunk16 wrote:What is this holy grail (teaching option) and where can I find it?

Heroes Unlimited Main RPG (pg48) and Rifts Ultimate Edition's Rogue Scholar OCC (pg93 Ability #1), other examples exists IIRC but I'm not going to look for them. Rifts (as RT/M2) uses the OCC system, but its wanting for more details IMHO (it's literally 1 short paragraph long), the HU is technically set up for the Skill Program System but is a nearly half a page.


Thanks! Will still be pretty awkward, by being incredibly slower than the levelling up of characters, but still better than nothing.
(I did not bother to check the Rift OCCs before, mainly bought a PDF version to clarify RT rules when needed. Wish I had done it now, it would have saved us some weird stops into the game.) I assume the ruling, for Heroes Unlimited, is more or less in the same style?
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

xunk16 wrote:Thanks! Will still be pretty awkward, by being incredibly slower than the levelling up of characters, but still better than nothing.
(I did not bother to check the Rift OCCs before, mainly bought a PDF version to clarify RT rules when needed. Wish I had done it now, it would have saved us some weird stops into the game.) I assume the ruling, for Heroes Unlimited, is more or less in the same style?

HU is, but it gives time frames (length and how much time they have to put in), the cost involved, etc. Like I said HU takes up nearly a half page, where the Rifts OCC is a short paragraph. There are a few more instances I know of, but they are even less helpful than the Rifts OCC. There is also the old 1E RT Rules for brining Macross-era or ASC-era characters forward into the NG-era where they get "free skills" due to elapsed time, but no XP/Level advancement (basically if you have lots of down time it appears you can learn new skills w/o a level up).

Seto wrote:In this case, where Destroids are concerned it's "nowhere"... even in RAW.

Unless otherwise indicated yes. And technically in 1E the REF Z-1/2 Pods are Destroids and they can fly in space, along with a prototype or two, and w/exception of the Mac-series all can be outfitted with a space maneuvering pack. In 2E the UEEF versions of Destroids can, along with the M2 Destroids.

Seto wrote:One of the goals of a licensed game is to get as close as possible. Keeping gameplay streamlined and balanced is also a concern, but if your licensed game doesn't resemble the source material then you've kind of failed a basic precondition of developing a licensed game. It doesn't help that Palladium's system is overly granular when it comes to skills. A certain amount of correcting for Palladium's system fitting poorly in certain areas is expected, doubly so when you're working with a property that's been misrepresented as badly as Macross II or Robotech.

While that is true that it should be as close as possible, some things are likely to be "adjusted" for gameplay/balance. Then there is how things work in their game world (the whole SDC/HP and MDC aspect).

Seto wrote:Again, we haven't really moved from the position of the Pilot: Jet Fighter skill only really being good to cover a single very specific corner case in operating a GERWALKroid or GERWALK-mode VF. Given the GERWALKroid's descriptions in official material the most relevant Pilot skill for it would be Pilot: Valkyrie. Without having a dedicated skill, the next closest would be Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie and likely Pilot: Helicopter for the best match in terms of actual handling and combat performance

In general Pilot Jet Fighter is useful for piloting the Gerwalk-roid/mode, we know it can be done. One might also argue that given sufficent time in that class of vehicle, the Pilot Jet Fighter skill would be fine as the pilot would have learned specific handling aspects. This is in stark contrast to Hikaru who literally meets the definition of "learn as you go" with an appropriate skill (technically I doubt Hikaru even had Jet Fighter, more like a regular Jet skill).

I do no think we need a dedicated skill for it (or even Civilian Valk), because it could also fall under Pilot Robots & PA, at least looking at the megaverse at large (13 flying units in Rifts fall under this skill). The Gerwalkroid doesn't transform, so putting it under Valk. skills seems over kill, the Gerwalkroid seems geared toward creating a cheaper Valk. alternative (not just from a mechanical design point, but also training point). I could see requiring pilot jet (or other aircraft) alongside R&PA to operate a Gerwalkroid.

Seto wrote:Eh... there are other factors that justify Roy's decision:
1. Roy was trying to expedite the extraction of two civilians from a still-active battlefield. They're under enemy fire less than a minute after Roy reaches Hikaru's position and the first barrage destroys the VF-1D completely.
2. While Hikaru was, at the time, an excellent stunt pilot he was not a qualified combat pilot and would've been at much greater risk of dying while fleeing the combat area in a damaged Valkyrie that he had only a vague idea how to operate.
3. The rendezvous point they were retreating to was the Macross on its ascent from low Earth orbit to a higher orbital path. Not only was Hikaru essentially untrained on the damaged VF-1D he had been flying up to that point, he was also completely unqualified on space flight in general and carrier operations in either regime. Even in peacetime, an extraction like that would be a gargantuan ask for an untrained pilot.

Re: Point 1.
Question is could Roy have freed the VT-1D faster another way than engaging the capsule system. The VF-1S cut out the perimeter of a mansized hole at the Grand Cannon how fast in Ep27 (I counted 5sec, and that includes the plug falling out, vs 12seconds to deploy the utility arm/trigger capsule/pickup & stow capsule)? It should be noted that Roy would have a much shorter cutting distance if he focused on a joint (like the wrist), which means an even faster cutting time.

Re: Point 2&3.
I agree on his skill level and the state of his VT-1D, but I think it would have been possible for Hikaru to reach friendly position and return the VT-1D to the UN Spacy either at the Base or one of the carriers. I mean Roy should have done that from the beginning (if not the dogfight, then after repairing the unit). Sure it kills the eventual story, but its not like anyone would have known about the impending Space Fold operation at any of these points.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

ShadowLogan wrote:Unless otherwise indicated yes. [...] along with the M2 Destroids.

Destroids in Macross cannot fly, not even in the Macross II RPG.

The RPG offers mention of a separate - and entirely non-canon - add-on craft to add flight capability.



ShadowLogan wrote:And technically in 1E the REF Z-1/2 Pods are Destroids and they can fly in space, along with a prototype or two, and w/exception of the Mac-series all can be outfitted with a space maneuvering pack.

Those aren't even canon to Robotech, and are completely irrelevant to Macross, so I'm not sure why you brought it up TBH.



ShadowLogan wrote:While that is true that it should be as close as possible, some things are likely to be "adjusted" for gameplay/balance.

True, but when it comes to things like the division of skills for operating specific classes of vehicles the sensible thing to do would be to aim for internally-consistent categories that align with what the available vehicle options are and make contextual sense with the licensed setting.

Having separate skills for Pilot: Valkyrie and Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie might seem overly granular at first glance, but it makes contextual sense in the game's setting. Civilian Valkyries are presented as a separate and distinct class of variable vehicle from the military's Valkyries in Macross II. Likewise, it makes contextual sense to put the GERWALKroid to use the Valkyrie piloting skill because the official setting information refers to it as functionally belonging to that class of mecha.

On the other hand, it also doesn't make contextual sense to lump every other mecha in the game under "Robots and Powered Armor" or even to have conventional war robots and powered armor in the same category because that combines mutually-exclusive categories of wildly different mecha. For consistency with the setting and logical transferability of skills, you'd realistically want 2-3 skills which cover the different families of mecha. One pilot skill for Destroids, one for Zentran and Meltran Battle Pods/Suits, and if you're really feeling frisky one for Powered Suits even though as noted nothing in the setting actually meets the strict definition of a powered suit.

Simplicity is not always the best approach, especially if veracity is also a goal.



ShadowLogan wrote:Then there is how things work in their game world (the whole SDC/HP and MDC aspect).

Kind of a poor choice of example, IMO... given that Macross is one of the few settings I can think of where such a sharp delineation is actually explicitly 100% justified.

Initial generation super-alloys and composites developed from reverse-engineering of the Macross's overtechnology are indicated in early materials to be at least 100x stronger than their modern equivalents. To frame that in perspective, a regulation playing card made from hypercarbon would have the same structural strength as an inch-thick plate of armor-grade steel. Similarly, the kind of improved material science and weapons technology produced by overtechnology made weapons at least an order of magnitude more destructive. The Howard GU-11A's standard 55mm HEACA round has twenty-four times the pure kinetic energy of the General Electric GAU-8/A's 30mm API round, not counting the far greater explosive charge and nearly seven times the energy-on-target if both of them are firing at their maximum rate of fire (again, not counting the greater explosive charge).

Conventional weapons and ammunition will do little-to-nothing to OTMat armor and overtechnology-based weapons are very much Power Overwhelming against even modern armored fighting vehicles and practically every weapon invokes the Chunky Salsa Rule.



ShadowLogan wrote:In general Pilot Jet Fighter is useful for piloting the Gerwalk-roid/mode, we know it can be done. One might also argue that given sufficent time in that class of vehicle, the Pilot Jet Fighter skill would be fine as the pilot would have learned specific handling aspects. This is in stark contrast to Hikaru who literally meets the definition of "learn as you go" with an appropriate skill (technically I doubt Hikaru even had Jet Fighter, more like a regular Jet skill).

Within certain limits, anyway... it should be noted that even though Hikaru was a highly experienced stunt pilot he still made a complete pig's ear of operating that GERWALK mode VF-1D.

As far as applicable skill, Hikaru was a highly qualified stunt pilot with experience on both propeller planes and an ultra-high performance stunt plane that explicitly had performance into the range that was normally reserved for contemporary fighter jets at the time the series was made. If he didn't have Pilot: Jet Fighter then he had a custom Pilot: Stunt Jet skill that is so close to it that it Counts As for most purposes.



ShadowLogan wrote:I do no think we need a dedicated skill for it (or even Civilian Valk), because it could also fall under Pilot Robots & PA, at least looking at the megaverse at large (13 flying units in Rifts fall under this skill). The Gerwalkroid doesn't transform, so putting it under Valk. skills seems over kill, the Gerwalkroid seems geared toward creating a cheaper Valk. alternative (not just from a mechanical design point, but also training point). I could see requiring pilot jet (or other aircraft) alongside R&PA to operate a Gerwalkroid.

I'm not looking at this "Megaversally" because Palladium's classifications of vehicles in Megaversal games are wildly inconsistent at best and downright nonsensical at worst.

I'm looking at this in a way that it's internally consistent. The GERWALKroid is described, officially, as a Valkyrie derivative intended for high cost-performance in an air support role. It makes sense to have Pilot: Valkyrie be the requisite skill since it's derived from Valkyries and its mode of operation is just being a Valkyrie that's stuck in one mode.



ShadowLogan wrote:Re: Point 1.
Question is could Roy have freed the VT-1D faster another way than engaging the capsule system. The VF-1S cut out the perimeter of a mansized hole at the Grand Cannon how fast in Ep27 (I counted 5sec, and that includes the plug falling out, vs 12seconds to deploy the utility arm/trigger capsule/pickup & stow capsule)? It should be noted that Roy would have a much shorter cutting distance if he focused on a joint (like the wrist), which means an even faster cutting time.

At the time, Roy would not have known if the VF-1's lasers would cut through that Zentradi soldier's body armor in a timely manner. Plus there's the question of having to walk Hikaru through standing the GERWALK-mode VF-1D back up and escorting him out of the combat zone. The Zentradi's hand was locked on the thrust-vectoring nozzle, so even severing it at the wrist might not have freed that nozzle either. Considering that the VF-1 relies on thrust vectoring for some of its attitude control that would be a significant problem.



ShadowLogan wrote:Re: Point 2&3.
I agree on his skill level and the state of his VT-1D, but I think it would have been possible for Hikaru to reach friendly position and return the VT-1D to the UN Spacy either at the Base or one of the carriers. I mean Roy should have done that from the beginning (if not the dogfight, then after repairing the unit). Sure it kills the eventual story, but its not like anyone would have known about the impending Space Fold operation at any of these points.

Retreating to the base that'd just been attacked and was being evacuated would be a Bad Idea.

Retreating to the Prometheus would've been slightly better, but wouldn't have removed him from the combat zone because that carrier and its support ships were still actively engaged in fighting the Zentradi who'd made planetfall on South Ataria island. Taking Hikaru and Minmay there would've potentially disrupted combat operations without removing them from immediate danger. It might also have gotten them killed if they were unlucky, as people who were out on the deck were killed when the Macross folded and accidentally teleported a several-kilometer diameter area of ocean and the entire island to Pluto's orbit. Retreating to the Macross was easily the safest of the available options and the only one that let him also rendezvous with the troops under his command at the same time.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Seto wrote:Destroids in Macross cannot fly, not even in the Macross II RPG.


This is RAW per the M2 RPG, not canon to the OVA but canon for the RPG version. The Phalanax Upgrade has it inherent, so does the Monster (albeit as Hover ability with a speed value which means forward momentum flight in other examples) and the others via add-on.

Seto wrote:True, but when it comes to things like the division of skills for operating specific classes of vehicles the sensible thing to do would be to aim for internally-consistent categories that align with what the available vehicle options are and make contextual sense with the licensed setting.

Palladium's pilot skill list actually varies and seems to evolve over time for the more conventional vehicles some times merging or splitting apart depending on the line/time frame. Ex. in 1E RT you had Pilot Jet skill that covered both Pilot Jet Aircraft and Pilot Jet Fighters skill found in M2 (and Rifts and 2E RT). There are skills that are super granulated skills but they are more the exception than the rule.

The GERWALKroid is on of those rare special cases where it could legally be covered by a few existing skills, including a super granulated design unique to it. Now I agree Pilot Valkryie (either) can work for it in a pinch, but so can Jet Fighter, Robots and Power Armor, and Helicopter. However as to what should be the MAIN Skill, I think we can rule out Pilot Valkyrie since the whole point of the GERWALKroid appears to be to create a more cost effective mecha/flying-destroid and the use of a high density skill like Valkryie seems to run counter to that purpose but as a "Destroid" (which your own website uses to describe it) it would make sense to go with Robots & Power Armor as that is the Destroid pilot skill (and AFAIK in M2 you could not take Robot Combat for specific Jet Fighters, and the GERWALKroid has an RC: Elite table meaning it would be best handled by R&PA or Pilot Valk but not Civilian Valk since it doesn't have RC: Elite skill).

Now I agree Pilot Robots & Power Armor might better be served as two separate skills in M2 (and in 2E RT they are essentially separate skills based on the ASC power armor being a separate skill makes this a moot point for the OP's approach), but a GM can impose penalties for "alien" designs. In point of fact, this is RAW even in the Macross 2 RPG (pg18) and Rifts (MB pg23, UE pg301), I can't find it in either RT edition (it might be there, just buried elsewhere). That little overlooked aspect can allow for the simplified format Palladium uses, but the GM has to enforce/use it (and depending on OCC bonuses to the skill and level, the penalty can be effective given the skill values in M2/RT2E/Rifts and the recommended -30% to -40% penalty and that's before any stunt penalties) and at the same time can give players more apparent options form a narrative POV (A player can go I can pilot the Marduk suit using Pilot Robot & PA, but it might not be apparent in a more granulated system).

Seto wrote:Kind of a poor choice of example, IMO... given that Macross is one of the few settings I can think of where such a sharp delineation is actually explicitly 100% justified.

Actually it is a good example, MDC IINM was invented/1st-used for RT. Palladium actually has something called Penetration Value (in some modern era SDC game lines) that IMHO would be a better system than MDC, but it has seen very limited use (and sometimes contradictory in use) that could duplicate the effect without the "conversion value" which causes issues.

Seto wrote:Within certain limits, anyway... it should be noted that even though Hikaru was a highly experienced stunt pilot he still made a complete pig's ear of operating that GERWALK mode VF-1D.

Granted, but the question is could his operation of it improved over time using just that skill set? Hikaru was literally doing on-the-job familiarization with the design. If we gave him say 48 (or 320) flight hours to familiarize himself would he show improvement vs the however much time he had between the repair job and crashing with Minmei (which can't be much more than an hour IMHO)?

Seto wrote:At the time, Roy would not have known if the VF-1's lasers would cut through that Zentradi soldier's body armor in a timely manner. Plus there's the question of having to walk Hikaru through standing the GERWALK-mode VF-1D back up and escorting him out of the combat zone. The Zentradi's hand was locked on the thrust-vectoring nozzle, so even severing it at the wrist might not have freed that nozzle either. Considering that the VF-1 relies on thrust vectoring for some of its attitude control that would be a significant problem.

I do not think we are going to come to some consensus here with regard to Roy's actions in Ep3 anytime soon, not to mention its not really relevant to the topic.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

ShadowLogan wrote:This is RAW per the M2 RPG, not canon to the OVA but canon for the RPG version.

The RPG does not have a canon.

To be blunt, Big West does not even consider it to be a legitimate Macross product.



ShadowLogan wrote:The Phalanax Upgrade has it inherent, so does the Monster (albeit as Hover ability with a speed value which means forward momentum flight in other examples) and the others via add-on.

No Destroid is flight-capable in canon. Full stop. That is a documented fact, not a negotiable or disputable point. Moving on...

Palladium's stats for the Phalanx Custom are as incorrect as everything else in the books, I'm afraid. Like its First Space War-era predecessor, the Phalanx Custom has high-thrust verniers which are powered directly off the auxiliary reactor and thus have very low burn time. It is not capable of sustaining flight. It is, however, able to recover faster if knocked off the deck of its mothership.

Even in Palladium's stats, the Giant Monster is not able to fly. It very clearly and unambiguously states this fact with "The [Giant Monster] cannot fly" on page 17. It is noted to be able to hover, but it has less than 1 meter of ground clearance at its maximum capacity in the RPG. (They actually got in the ballpark with canon on this one. The Giant Monster is airlifted into position when it needs to move quickly and can move under its own power VERY SLOWLY by hovering with an onboard gravity control system.)

The aforementioned add-on doesn't exist in Macross II.

This is why, properly written, the GERWALKroid is not a Destroid (or "Ground Mecha" as the RPG has it) and should be operated using a Pilot: Valkyrie skill not the Pilot: Robots used for ground mecha.



ShadowLogan wrote:The GERWALKroid is on of those rare special cases where it could legally be covered by a few existing skills, including a super granulated design unique to it. Now I agree Pilot Valkryie (either) can work for it in a pinch, but so can Jet Fighter, Robots and Power Armor, and Helicopter. However as to what should be the MAIN Skill, I think we can rule out Pilot Valkyrie since the whole point of the GERWALKroid appears to be to create a more cost effective mecha/flying-destroid and the use of a high density skill like Valkryie seems to run counter to that purpose but as a "Destroid" (which your own website uses to describe it) it would make sense to go with Robots & Power Armor as that is the Destroid pilot skill (and AFAIK in M2 you could not take Robot Combat for specific Jet Fighters, and the GERWALKroid has an RC: Elite table meaning it would be best handled by R&PA or Pilot Valk but not Civilian Valk since it doesn't have RC: Elite skill).

I partly agree... there are several skills that are in the ballpark with its operating profile that would allow a character to operate it at less than its full capacity like Pilot: Helicopter or Pilot: Jet Fighter, in much the same way that someone possessing those skills could theoretically operate a Valkyrie in one mode in a diminished capacity and with a lot of fumbling (i.e. a penalty to bonuses).

Remember, I am not trying to rationalize Palladium's questionable writing here. If this were correct to the source material like it's supposed to be, the most logical skill to have as the main piloting skill would be Pilot: Valkyrie. Why? Because the GERWALKroid is explicitly placed in the same class of craft as the Valkyries used by the UN Forces. That it was designed for better cost-performance than a Valkyrie in its very specific close air support and defense role is immaterial. It's still functionally a realization of the Armored GERWALK concept. Even the artbooks very clearly put it with the Valkyries and not the Destroids (both at the time it was made, and more recent works like Macross Chronicle). You'll find it sharing page space with the VF-XX in both cases (which Macross Chronicle makes clear is not coincidental.)

I will look into getting that note on the site fixed. You'll note, though, that the Equipment type is still Valkyrie, not Destroid.



ShadowLogan wrote:Actually it is a good example, MDC IINM was invented/1st-used for RT. Palladium actually has something called Penetration Value (in some modern era SDC game lines) that IMHO would be a better system than MDC, but it has seen very limited use (and sometimes contradictory in use) that could duplicate the effect without the "conversion value" which causes issues.

I am aware of it, and I actually think that MDC actually makes for a better fit with the realities of the Macross setting.

I've experimented with using the PV/AR stuff on top of MDC to represent Energy Conversion Armor in main timeline Macross material though. It met with mixed results.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

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Unless I missed it there's something about Hikaru's VF-1D that you're all forgetting. It was already shot up in Fighter mode and no longer functional enough to fly. That's why Misa had him change modes in the first place. The damage was visible when Roy helped him the first time and the VF only suffered more damage since. It may not have been capable of flight by the time Roy detached the cockpit section. Even if it were, how much longer would it have taken to diagnose the problem and fix it so Hikaru could take off in GERWALK mode again? Considering that they're essentially behind the lines, I think Roy made the best call possible.

I also wouldn't say that Hikaru being a stunt pilot wouldn't have the situational awareness for combat. You need a lot of situational awareness to be a stunt pilot. I believe Hikaru's problem is that he wasn't expecting combat and was taken by surprise. Wasn't he just flying the VF where Misa told him to? I don't think he'd of been shot down as quickly if he'd gone into combat knowingly with the rest of the squadron.

As for Robots flying, not every Robot in Rifts is capable of flight. I believe that is where a skill penalty would come in. A Robot Pilot who's never flown a Robot is not going to fly it with the same skill as a Robot Pilot who's been trained to fly a Robot. I believe that would apply to R1E's detachable Packs as well as Macross II's GERWALK. A Destroid Pilot could walk and fight in a GERWALK but not fly it.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Sambot wrote:Unless I missed it there's something about Hikaru's VF-1D that you're all forgetting. It was already shot up in Fighter mode and no longer functional enough to fly. That's why Misa had him change modes in the first place. The damage was visible when Roy helped him the first time and the VF only suffered more damage since. It may not have been capable of flight by the time Roy detached the cockpit section. Even if it were, how much longer would it have taken to diagnose the problem and fix it so Hikaru could take off in GERWALK mode again? Considering that they're essentially behind the lines, I think Roy made the best call possible.

Actually, yes... we did cover those points. Hikaru's - or rather, CPT Dagger's - VF-1D had been damaged by enemy fire and crashed at the end of "Booby Trap". Roy was able to repair it enough to fly again partway through "Countdown", where it promptly lost an arm while Hikaru was attempting to escape the Zentradi with Minmay. The only other damage it sustains after that when he crashes its wings through a Regult's legs and it briefly flips over, neither of which should have been enough damage to incapacitate it given that we'd previously seen it plow through half a dozen lowrise concrete buildings without incident in "Booby Trap". Roy never mentions it being incapacitated, he just teases Hikaru about the alien "with a crush on [him]" whose literal deathgrip caused the VF-1D to topple over when he tried to walk.



Sambot wrote:I also wouldn't say that Hikaru being a stunt pilot wouldn't have the situational awareness for combat. You need a lot of situational awareness to be a stunt pilot. I believe Hikaru's problem is that he wasn't expecting combat and was taken by surprise. Wasn't he just flying the VF where Misa told him to? I don't think he'd of been shot down as quickly if he'd gone into combat knowingly with the rest of the squadron.

There are different kinds of situational awareness... the kind of situational awareness a stunt pilot needs to successfully execute stunts at an airshow is very different from the situational awareness that a combat pilot needs to track enemy aircraft in three dimensions, avoid flying into their fields of fire, and position him/herself to attack in return. This is a two-way street too. Hikaru, an award-winning competitive stunt pilot, is not used to sharing his airspace with other aircraft and lacks the contextual awareness of how to evade enemy fire and position his aircraft in ways that make him harder for an enemy to attack. This nearly gets him killed on at least three occasions in the first two episodes: once when he flies directly into enemy fire and is shot down, once when he flies directly into enemy fire while avoiding other enemy fire and is nearly shot down while losing his VF's arm and Minmay, and once when he literally flies into an enemy Regult and crashes because he wasn't paying attention. By the same token, military pilots cause a distressing number of accidents at airshows becuase they're not used to executing maneuvers at such low altitudes where tolerances are much tighter.

There's a similar example in Macross Delta where Hayate Immelmann shows he can maneuver in Battroid on a VF-171-II with aplomb due to his extensive experience on a Destroid Work, but as soon as he tries to fly he's causing massive property damage and is shot down almost immediately and has to be rescued by Mirage Jenius.

This is the kind of reasoning I'm getting at when argue that there is a justification for Pilot: Valkyrie being a different skill from Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie. The Pilot skill doesn't just represent knowing how the controls work, it also represents the contextual differences in form or style that best fit a particular type of vehicle. It's the same reasoning behind why you need different classes of license to drive a heavy industrial vehicle vs. a semi truck vs. a bus or limo vs. an ordinary family car or different classes of pilot license.



Sambot wrote:As for Robots flying, not every Robot in Rifts is capable of flight. I believe that is where a skill penalty would come in. A Robot Pilot who's never flown a Robot is not going to fly it with the same skill as a Robot Pilot who's been trained to fly a Robot. I believe that would apply to R1E's detachable Packs as well as Macross II's GERWALK. A Destroid Pilot could walk and fight in a GERWALK but not fly it.

That's the thing... there's no differentiation on that front in the RAW. Pilot: Robots and Powered Armor is a generic skill. Rather than having to remember whether or not to apply a penalty independent of the skill and skill level, why not just do the painfully obvious thing and separate the skills? That way, if the player is using a related skill that isn't the one explicitly called for, there's no need to guess whether a penalty needs to be applied or not. When you get right down to it, there are only essentially four classes of mecha in the game: Valkyries, Civilian Valkyries, Destroids, and Battle Pods/Suits. That's only one more than the number of skills present in RAW and it breaks things down a lot more logically in terms of transferrable skills and available mecha choices.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Seto wrote:The RPG does not have a canon.

To be blunt, Big West does not even consider it to be a legitimate Macross product.

While BW might not consider it a legitimate Macross product it is really irrelevant, we are discussing what is in the text of said product.

When I say the RPG has a canon (and I should have put it in quotes to make it more obvious I guess), I mean what is written in the text that everyone can look at and agree that is what is written down (which can vary by printings).

Seto wrote:This is why, properly written, the GERWALKroid is not a Destroid (or "Ground Mecha" as the RPG has it) and should be operated using a Pilot: Valkyrie skill not the Pilot: Robots used for ground mecha.

There really is no reason that Pilot Robot has to be restricted to Ground Mecha though. The skill focuses on piloting, combat training is supposed to come from the Robot Combat: Elite skills (I do admit RC: Basic doesn't apply to flying mecha). Since the OP is talking about apply the RT2E skill set, then it is even more applicable given that both the Condor nt-Battloid and Bioroid Interceptor (along w/ASC Cyclops Battloid, UEEF Valiant and Golem Battoids) both use the same piloting skill: Pilot Battloid, but they both have their own self-contained flight capabilities (not present on other mecha the skill applies to like the UEDF Destroids). Further supporting the notion is that the Zentreadi Mecha Piloting skill in TMS-SB, while a separate skill, includes mecha that are all non-transformable and varying degrees of flight capability.

Using the Valkryie/Veritech piloting skills, seems a bit overkill and to defeat the purpose of a "poor man's valkryie" if the pilot has to take such a wide ranging skill, but will only realistically use 1/3 of that skill's abilities. If the majority of the pilots who will operate the GERWALKroid are will never set foot in a Varlkryie, the use of that skill will in turn be very costly in terms of investment for the UN Spacy.

Seto wrote:his is the kind of reasoning I'm getting at when argue that there is a justification for Pilot: Valkyrie being a different skill from Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie. The Pilot skill doesn't just represent knowing how the controls work, it also represents the contextual differences in form or style that best fit a particular type of vehicle. It's the same reasoning behind why you need different classes of license to drive a heavy industrial vehicle vs. a semi truck vs. a bus or limo vs. an ordinary family car or different classes of pilot license.

I think you are forgetting that in the Palladium Skill set, to operate a specific Mecha effectively is actually two skills. The pilot skill and the RC: Elite Skill. The Pilot Skill covers the fundamentals of that class of vehicle, but the RC: Elite gets down to the details of a specific type with in that class. The RC: Elite skill confers various bonuses in terms of attack, strike, roll, dodge, parry, etc that only apply to that type of mecha, which means they are more familiar with the mecha's particular handling characteristics otherwise every RC: Elite skill would look identical (and they don't, there are differences even in the M2 line between specific UN Spacy Units never mind the Marduk ones, we could include RT 1E and 2E or even Rifts).

And in 2E RT, the various mecha pilot skills are still broad based, but also confer "specialty" area at a high level (presumably you can spend skills to acquire more "specialty" areas), but still use MECT (RC: Elite).

Seto wrote: Rather than having to remember whether or not to apply a penalty independent of the skill and skill level, why not just do the painfully obvious thing and separate the skills? That way, if the player is using a related skill that isn't the one explicitly called for, there's no need to guess whether a penalty needs to be applied or not.

What's the use of separate skills if you can use them in a pinch for a different class at penalty though? All you've done is made a longer skill list, and possibly obscured the fact to players that they can use X skill to operate Y mecha.

Sambot wrote:I believe Hikaru's problem is that he wasn't expecting combat and was taken by surprise. Wasn't he just flying the VF where Misa told him to? I don't think he'd of been shot down as quickly if he'd gone into combat knowingly with the rest of the squadron.

Misa ordered Hikaru into the air (the VT-1D he was sitting in waiting for Fokker was parked on the runway) to join the combat squadron that was already engaging the Zentraedi. He did not just stumble into the combat zone, nor did he take off not knowing he was going into a combat zone. His own ego prevented him from doing the right thing by going "I'm a civilian pilot".
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by jaymz »

I think, while in depth, this discussion has very much taken a ftl jump away from the the original intent of the op....lol
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

ShadowLogan wrote:While BW might not consider it a legitimate Macross product it is really irrelevant, we are discussing what is in the text of said product.

When I say the RPG has a canon (and I should have put it in quotes to make it more obvious I guess), I mean what is written in the text that everyone can look at and agree that is what is written down (which can vary by printings).

First, you seem to have forgotten that the two-part premise of this thread is 1. updating the Macross II RPG based on RT2E's Macross Saga book and 2. correcting the contents of that to properly reflect the Macross setting WRT skills, etc.

Second, you keep throwing the word "canon" around in ways that are very inconsistent with what it means and how it works.



ShadowLogan wrote:There really is no reason that Pilot Robot has to be restricted to Ground Mecha though. The skill focuses on piloting, [...]

You're kind of missing the point, I'm afraid...

The Pilot skills in the Macross II game are a mess because all you really have for mecha are Pilot: Valkyrie, Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie, and Pilot: Robots and Powered Armor, with the latter essentially being Pilot: Everything Else. RT2e breaks things down in a more sensible manner but still has what is essentially "Pilot: Everything Else" in the form of Pilot: Battloid. To bring Macross II across using RT2e you only really need to have four Mecha-category pilot skills: Valkyrie, Civilian Valkyrie, Destroid, and Mardook Pods/Suits.
  • Mecha: Pilot Valkyries is basically just the existing RT2e skill Mecha: Pilot Veritechs renamed, and should cover the following mecha:
    • VF-2SS Valkyrie II
    • VF-2JA Icarus
    • VF-XX Zentradi Valkyrie
    • VA-1SS Metal Siren
    • GERWALKroid
    • Mardook variable mecha
  • Mecha: Pilot Civilian Valkyries is also essentially Mecha: Pilot Veritechs but, as with the difference between Pilot: Jet Aircraft and Military: Jet Fighters, this skill does not cover any weapons systems, air combat strategies, or combat-type maneuvering. It should cover:
    • VC-079 Civilian Valkyrie AKA SNN Valkyrie
  • Mecha: Pilot Destroids is essentially Mecha: Pilot Ground Veritechs but without the transformations. Nothing in this category can fly, so while this skill can be used to operate a VF in Battroid mode it cannot be used for flight. It should cover:
    • Destroid Defender EX
    • Destroid Giant Monster
    • Destroid Phalanx Custom
    • Destroid Tomahawk II
  • Mecha: Pilot Mardook Mecha should cover the various types of Mardook-manufactured mecha (all of which are flight-capable):
    • Zentradi Battle Pod (Regult equivalent)
    • Zentradi Battle Pod (Glaug equivalent)
    • Zentradi Battle Suit (Nousjadeul-Ger equivalent)
    • Meltrandi Battle Suit (New Type)
    • Mardook Gigamesh Battle Suit

There is no reason to have a catch-all that contains a mixture of flight-capable and ground-bound mecha. This way, it is immediately obvious from a character's skills if they are flight-trained or not without having to refer their Specialty against their chosen mecha's stats.



ShadowLogan wrote:Using the Valkryie/Veritech piloting skills, seems a bit overkill and to defeat the purpose of a "poor man's valkryie" if the pilot has to take such a wide ranging skill, but will only realistically use 1/3 of that skill's abilities. If the majority of the pilots who will operate the GERWALKroid are will never set foot in a Varlkryie, the use of that skill will in turn be very costly in terms of investment for the UN Spacy.

Not really, when you consider that this is essentially a Valkyrie-substitute that fights like a Valkyrie in close air support roles. The goal was a less expensive craft, not a less well-trained pilot. The pilot of a GERWALKroid still needs to know how to almost everything a VF pilot will do including hand-to-hand combat, engaging with missiles and guns, dogfighting to a certain extent. The only areas their training won't directly overlap with that of a VF pilot's is that they don't theoretically need to be trained for beyond-visual-range engagements. In a lot of ways, it's broadly analogous to how a number of militaries use propeller planes for certain tasks that don't require a jet. It's a low cost substitute, but the training is still effectively the same.



ShadowLogan wrote:I think you are forgetting that in the Palladium Skill set, to operate a specific Mecha effectively is actually two skills.

In Macross II RAW, yes... in the RT2e ruleset that OP is using to update his game? Not so much.

RT2e's Pilot skills explicitly include all fundamentals of the craft (incl. weapons systems) and in military vehicle classes this includes combat maneuver training and strategy too. This justifies having a separate Civilian Valkyrie skill in the same manner that there are separate skills for non-military jet aircraft vs. military fighter jets. The pilots of privately-owned non-military aircraft generally do not require training in air combat strategy, rules of engagement, etc. It might seem like a fine distinction, but it was one Palladium's writers rather sensibly saw fit to include across multiple categories of vehicle. This does not count MECT or Specialty bonuses.



ShadowLogan wrote:What's the use of separate skills if you can use them in a pinch for a different class at penalty though? All you've done is made a longer skill list, and possibly obscured the fact to players that they can use X skill to operate Y mecha.

... but it's exactly the same length as RT2e raw, just organized slightly differently. Four Mecha pilot skills. In RT2e RAW those are Battloid, Ground Veritech, Veritech, and Zentradi Ground Mecha. So no, I haven't made a longer skill list. Technically I've made it shorter, since there's no longer multiple RC skills from M2 RAW.

This just organizes things more logically for the Macross II setting.

That said, there are a few skills that can absolutely be cleaned up, but they're in other sections like Domestic or Technical. For example, Hunting is basically useless in Macross II because Earth is largely devoid of non-humanoid animal life. The same for Medical skills like Animal Husbandry and Science skills like Zoology. Fishing is basically limited to commercial fisheries because a fair amount of Earth's environment is still in the earliest stages of recovering from the Zentradi bombardment so the Fishing skill is deadweight. Xenological Medicine is also unneeded because there's little-to-no difference in anatomy between a Human, Zentradi, and Mardook as a result of common genetic origin. The Language skill is greatly devalued since on Earth there are effectively only two languages to speak: English and Zentradi and pretty much everyone just speaks English. Carpentry's also pretty useless when Earth is surprisingly short of trees in general and destruction of nature regeneration areas is a crime. Holistic Medicine's basically deadweight for the same reason. Outdoorsmanship is totally useless given that Earth is a barren wasteland outside of the cities and nature regeneration areas, making "living off the land" functionally equivalent to slow suicide (or very quick suicide, depending on how radioactive the land is). Most type of Pilot: Boats skills are useless for very similar reasons. Jet Packs aren't a thing, so that skill isn't needed. Several categories of Pilot: Spacecraft can go away. A separate Space Fold skill is unnecessary if you're already trained in operating large spacecraft since practically every large spaceship humanity has built since discovering overtechnology has been fold-capable. You could arguably merge many of the sensor related skills since mecha and warships manage sensor fusion automatically. Archaeology's kind of a lost cause since everything ancient on Earth got vaporized. Ancient weapon proficiencies are useless too.

Some of the above are still useful in a main timeline Macross game, but given how many people live in wholly artificial environments aboard space colonies, satellite cities, emigrant ships, and so on, a lot of them are unlikely to actually have value all the same.



jaymz wrote:I think, while in depth, this discussion has very much taken a ftl jump away from the the original intent of the op....lol

Less so than you'd think, once you boil out some of the digressions. We're still very much on the "adapting the existing skill sets and terminology" topic.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by jaymz »

Pretty sure his intentions were not to get that deep in the weeds about it though....lol
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by xunk16 »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:I think you are forgetting that in the Palladium Skill set, to operate a specific Mecha effectively is actually two skills.

In Macross II RAW, yes... in the RT2e ruleset that OP is using to update his game? Not so much.

RT2e's Pilot skills explicitly include all fundamentals of the craft (incl. weapons systems) and in military vehicle classes this includes combat maneuver training and strategy too. This justifies having a separate Civilian Valkyrie skill in the same manner that there are separate skills for non-military jet aircraft vs. military fighter jets. The pilots of privately-owned non-military aircraft generally do not require training in air combat strategy, rules of engagement, etc. It might seem like a fine distinction, but it was one Palladium's writers rather sensibly saw fit to include across multiple categories of vehicle. This does not count MECT or Specialty bonuses.


Yes and no... It includes handheld weapon systems. There is actually a skill "Weapons System", for weapons incorporated into the chassis of a military vehicle, mecha, robot vehicle, and spacecrafts. So this does cover launching missiles, head lasers, some shoulder mounted artillery, etc... The skill also explicitly mentions that it doesn't cover handheld weaponry; making this the "computer assisted radar aimed weaponry", or angle based, like tank cannons. So I guess the gun pods would have to be taken from elsewhere.

The descriptions for MECT does state that piloting skills include operation of sensors and weapons, but then again, Mecha : Pilot Battloids informs us that the piloting skills do not contain combat training! While it isn't repeated for other piloting skills, I do think this was made to save space, in the same way that the swimming skill is the only mention of "fatigue". Or that the "weapon engineer" skill lets you know how to test fire any vehicular mounted weaponery, without having a bonus that scales with levelling up! While the piloting skill lets you know what button is firing a missile, it doesn't train you to lock on a moving target under stress. This is what MECT stands for.
So your distinction, between Civilian training and military training for pilots... Does seem to follow another logic than 2nd edition. Technically, MECT still do represent combat training, and operation of weaponry outside of moving the body of a mecha (including trigger finger) would still be weapons system. By definition, then, all piloting skill are base "civilian" skills. (Assuming you let your civilian be trained on such machinery!)
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by Sambot »

Seto Kaiba wrote:Actually, yes... we did cover those points. Hikaru's - or rather, CPT Dagger's - VF-1D had been damaged by enemy fire and crashed at the end of "Booby Trap". Roy was able to repair it enough to fly again partway through "Countdown", where it promptly lost an arm while Hikaru was attempting to escape the Zentradi with Minmay. The only other damage it sustains after that when he crashes its wings through a Regult's legs and it briefly flips over, neither of which should have been enough damage to incapacitate it given that we'd previously seen it plow through half a dozen lowrise concrete buildings without incident in "Booby Trap". Roy never mentions it being incapacitated, he just teases Hikaru about the alien "with a crush on [him]" whose literal deathgrip caused the VF-1D to topple over when he tried to walk.


That's cool. I guess I missed it because I was reading questions about why he didn't just free the foot and fly up to the SDF-1. Since Fighter Mode was out I don't think the VF could have done that. It is possible that the VF-1D was still functional. That it lacked an arm speaks of damage though. But considering how much coaching Hikaru needed before, it still would have taken too long to get the VF back on it's feet.



There are different kinds of situational awareness... the kind of situational awareness a stunt pilot needs to successfully execute stunts at an airshow is very different from the situational awareness that a combat pilot needs to track enemy aircraft in three dimensions, avoid flying into their fields of fire, and position him/herself to attack in return. This is a two-way street too. Hikaru, an award-winning competitive stunt pilot, is not used to sharing his airspace with other aircraft and lacks the contextual awareness of how to evade enemy fire and position his aircraft in ways that make him harder for an enemy to attack. This nearly gets him killed on at least three occasions in the first two episodes: once when he flies directly into enemy fire and is shot down, once when he flies directly into enemy fire while avoiding other enemy fire and is nearly shot down while losing his VF's arm and Minmay, and once when he literally flies into an enemy Regult and crashes because he wasn't paying attention. By the same token, military pilots cause a distressing number of accidents at airshows becuase they're not used to executing maneuvers at such low altitudes where tolerances are much tighter.


Not necessarily. A stunt pilot needs to know where his aircraft is in relation to everyone else that doesn't change from stunts to combat. You still need to know where everyone is or you crash. Hikaru was also able to seamlessly integrate himself in to the VF's show so he was able to fly with others.

As for Hikaru being shot down, the first time he was still in shock at finding himself in the middle of a dogfight. The other two times wasn't he also focused on Minmay? Considering he planes he flew, I don't think he was used to dealing with passengers.


There's a similar example in Macross Delta where Hayate Immelmann shows he can maneuver in Battroid on a VF-171-II with aplomb due to his extensive experience on a Destroid Work, but as soon as he tries to fly he's causing massive property damage and is shot down almost immediately and has to be rescued by Mirage Jenius.

This is the kind of reasoning I'm getting at when argue that there is a justification for Pilot: Valkyrie being a different skill from Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie. The Pilot skill doesn't just represent knowing how the controls work, it also represents the contextual differences in form or style that best fit a particular type of vehicle. It's the same reasoning behind why you need different classes of license to drive a heavy industrial vehicle vs. a semi truck vs. a bus or limo vs. an ordinary family car or different classes of pilot license.


The difference is he was trying to do something he didn't know how to do. Fly. Pilot Civilian Valkyrie covers Aircraft and GERWALK Modes. Minus the arms. Get a skill penalty there. It doesn't cover Battloid Mode. It also doesn't cover the Combat Skill. That's the key point. A Valkyrie in Fighter Mode is just a really fancy jet. A Pilot can fly it but not effectively because they're not familiar with it. And they're not going to be able to fight without other skills because they don't know how to work the weapons systems. They might get lucky and fire something but they'll also do something wrong. Like using all the gun pods ammo. Or like Russel Kay in Independence Day hitting the wrong buttons and jamming the missile release.




Sambot wrote:As for Robots flying, not every Robot in Rifts is capable of flight. I believe that is where a skill penalty would come in. A Robot Pilot who's never flown a Robot is not going to fly it with the same skill as a Robot Pilot who's been trained to fly a Robot. I believe that would apply to R1E's detachable Packs as well as Macross II's GERWALK. A Destroid Pilot could walk and fight in a GERWALK but not fly it.

That's the thing... there's no differentiation on that front in the RAW. Pilot: Robots and Powered Armor is a generic skill. Rather than having to remember whether or not to apply a penalty independent of the skill and skill level, why not just do the painfully obvious thing and separate the skills? That way, if the player is using a related skill that isn't the one explicitly called for, there's no need to guess whether a penalty needs to be applied or not. When you get right down to it, there are only essentially four classes of mecha in the game: Valkyries, Civilian Valkyries, Destroids, and Battle Pods/Suits. That's only one more than the number of skills present in RAW and it breaks things down a lot more logically in terms of transferrable skills and available mecha choices.


I think they should be separate skills. I'd also just have three classes of mech with Valkyries being a single class. Valkyries are also a unique case because they transform. In Battloid Mode a Destroid pilot could probably operate a Valkyrie. Getting it to fly? Massive skill penalties. Converting it and operating it in another mode? Not without a skill in that vehicle type. Like Pilot Jet and then I'd still have skill penalties because a Valkyrie pilot knows when to transform the craft.

Of course if it were me, I'd have atmospheric flight training and outer space flight training. I'd also have a pilot with Mecha Combat Elite for a type in a class also having basic in the others that can be upgraded to Elite after a period of time. Along with a possible skill penalty. I'd also still have skills like Air-to-Air Combat, VTOL training, Carrier Proficiencies and so one to reflect differences in pilot's training. It's part of the reason I think there should be more skills with an understanding that some skills are automatically included. A Valkyrie Fighter Pilot is going to have an Instrument Rating included in their training. A singer with the Pilot Airplane skill though may only be flying under Visual Flight Rules.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Seto wrote:You're kind of missing the point, I'm afraid...

The Pilot skills in the Macross II game are a mess because all you really have for mecha are Pilot: Valkyrie, Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie, and Pilot: Robots and Powered Armor, with the latter essentially being Pilot: Everything Else. RT2e breaks things down in a more sensible manner but still has what is essentially "Pilot: Everything Else" in the form of Pilot: Battloid. To bring Macross II across using RT2e you only really need to have four Mecha-category pilot skills: Valkyrie, Civilian Valkyrie, Destroid, and Mardook Pods/Suits.

What constitutes a mess though is going to vary from person to person.

1E RT- had (IIRC) 16 mecha pilot skills (4 are rendered redundant by 1 skill, and several more exist on NPC skill lists), which compared to Macross 2 and its 3 mecha pilot skills in RAW (or RT2E** with 6 skills or Rifts* with 1 skill) could constitute being a mess, but could also be straight up organized.

Really there are only 3 classes of mecha; transformable, non-transformable, power-suit. Civilian Models or Alien Versions of these shouldn't require special piloting skills as these can be managed within the existing framework of skill penalties and use of MECT/RC skills. Now sub-types might exist in all 3 (some units might fly and some might not), but aspects that are not universal to that class would be covered by the MECT/RC skill as it provides a more complete instruction in the use of a particular design (hence the assorted bonuses) as the MECT/RC skill is supposed to be a supplemental piloting skill after all covering aspects of a particular design.

*
Spoiler:
if Rifts broke its Pilot R&PA down to the level of 1E RT, I estimate there could be 17 skills depending on how one considers the grouping:
Power Armor: non-flying, flying, non-humanoid body pilot (Earth Dolphin/Whale), transformable, blur-line-w/bot, non-humanoid legs/lower body (might qualify as 2 skills really), psychic assisted suit, underwater suits, techno-wizard hybrid suit
Robot: non-flying, flying, transformable, multi-legged non-humanoid, (IIRC) non-humanoid bipedal legs, detachable vehicles, underwater bot, techno-wizard hybrid bots

I wouldn't be surprised either if someone could add to this since my Rifts Library is far from complete or upto date


**Pilot Battloid, Pilot (ASC) Power Armor, Pilot Bioroid, Pilot Veritechs, Pilot Ground Veritechs, Pilot Zentreadi Mecha. 2 of these skills are found in OCC/MOS lists, but not described (I don't think they are the Piloting Specialty feature as the way they are written does not conform to the format seen in the TSC-MB).

Seto wrote:Not really, when you consider that this is essentially a Valkyrie-substitute that fights like a Valkyrie in close air support roles. The goal was a less expensive craft, not a less well-trained pilot. The pilot of a GERWALKroid still needs to know how to almost everything a VF pilot will do including hand-to-hand combat, engaging with missiles and guns, dogfighting to a certain extent. The only areas their training won't directly overlap with that of a VF pilot's is that they don't theoretically need to be trained for beyond-visual-range engagements. In a lot of ways, it's broadly analogous to how a number of militaries use propeller planes for certain tasks that don't require a jet. It's a low cost substitute, but the training is still effectively the same.

The key is the need to know almost everything a VF pilot does. The Gerwalkroid pilot doesn't need to know how to handle the transformation system in a dynamic sense. By Dynamic Sense I don't mean just pulling the appropriate lever, I mean maintaining control over the unit as it transforms while in flight, timing on when certain things become possible during transformation and even the length of transformation. The proficient combat aspect IMHO comes from MECT/RC and other skills, not the pilot skill.

Seto wrote:
Shadowlogan wrote:I think you are forgetting that in the Palladium Skill set, to operate a specific Mecha effectively is actually two skills.

In Macross II RAW, yes... in the RT2e ruleset that OP is using to update his game? Not so much.

No it is still 2 skills. MECT skill explicitly states they do so without bonuses and a straight die roll, which makes a character with MECT far more EFFECTIVE than one without it (MECT also provides the added benefit of reducing piloting penalties, a new feature).

I added emphasis to call out this point that you seem to miss both in the quote you responded to and in my reply.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

jaymz wrote:Pretty sure his intentions were not to get that deep in the weeds about it though....lol

He asked for our thoughts. That is a dangerous, dangerous request and you know it. :-P





xunk16 wrote:Yes and no... It includes handheld weapon systems.

Ah, no...:
RT2e Core Book (Manga Ed.) pg274, left column wrote:The ability to pilot mecha (see Battloids, Cyclones, and Veritechs below) means the character can operate it and use all sensors, features, and weapons of the mecha.

As you see, the Pilot skill confers the ability to use all of the mecha's weapons... though it is noted that, without Mecha Elite Combat Training, you don't get any bonuses.


xunk16 wrote:There is actually a skill "Weapons System", for weapons incorporated into the chassis of a military vehicle, mecha, robot vehicle, and spacecrafts.

The Weapons Systems skill is, as written, simply reflective of "complete understanding" of the weapons a particular mecha is equipped with and provides +1 to Strike with a mecha's weapons. It does not extent to man-portable weapons that derive their bonuses from WP instead of MECT.


xunk16 wrote:So this does cover launching missiles, head lasers, some shoulder mounted artillery, etc... The skill also explicitly mentions that it doesn't cover handheld weaponry; making this the "computer assisted radar aimed weaponry", or angle based, like tank cannons. So I guess the gun pods would have to be taken from elsewhere.

The Skill description says "vehicle/robot weapons systems" in general... handheld weaponry is literal, since it mentions that it excludes handheld weapons that derive their bonuses from W.P. instead.

Mind you, any weapon mounted on or carried by a mecha is "computer assisted <sensor> aimed weaponry". I'm not sure about Palladium's original settings, but in Macross (and Robotech) the pilot of a mecha is not manually or directly controlling the mecha's limbs in normal operation. The pilot is merely setting direction, velocity, identifying targets, and so on. A sophisticated onboard computer and AI software system - what Macross calls the integrated airframe management and control AI - is responsible for managing things like body posture, balance, kinesthetics, the joint drive actuator positions, and exercising supervisory control over the controllers managing individual systems like the compact thermonuclear reactors, laser capacitors, sensors and so on. Weaponry's no exception. When the pilot designates a target, it's that computer that maintains the target lock with the various sensors (RADAR, LIDAR, guide laser oscillators, optical cameras, etc.) and controls the movement of the necessary extremities to bring the weapon to bear on the target regardless of whether the weapon is held in the mecha's hand (e.g. a gunpod) or built into the mecha.


xunk16 wrote:The descriptions for MECT does state that piloting skills include operation of sensors and weapons, but then again, Mecha : Pilot Battloids informs us that the piloting skills do not contain combat training!

Yes, but Combat Training does not confer the basic ability to operate weapons... it confers bonuses for doing so. This same dichotomy is echoed in the Weapon Proficiency section for the man-portable weapons. This represents a level of familiarity beyond basic competency. For instance, I could pick up any old gun I'd never seen before and shoot Joe Strictly-Hypothetical. Having a skill that denotes combat training like MECT or WP represents familiarity with that specific weapon or type of weapon, allowing me to do so with the greater speed and accuracy that comes from long practice, allowing me to down Joe Strictly-Hypothetical with a spectacular trick shot right in the left nut.





ShadowLogan wrote:Really there are only 3 classes of mecha; transformable, non-transformable, power-suit.

If you were talking about a generic RPG system that is independent of the setting, perhaps... but there is more to it than that once you try to actually incorporate this into a setting.


ShadowLogan wrote:The key is the need to know almost everything a VF pilot does. The Gerwalkroid pilot doesn't need to know how to handle the transformation system in a dynamic sense. By Dynamic Sense I don't mean just pulling the appropriate lever, I mean maintaining control over the unit as it transforms while in flight, timing on when certain things become possible during transformation and even the length of transformation. The proficient combat aspect IMHO comes from MECT/RC and other skills, not the pilot skill.

Combat awareness of when to transform wouldn't be necessary for a GERWALKroid pilot, sure... but "handling" the transformation is handled by the mecha's airframe control AI. The pilot doesn't need to manually intervene in any meaningful way. With transformation times under 1s, it's not really an area of concern. IIRC, the RPG basically treats transformation as a free action too.


ShadowLogan wrote:No it is still 2 skills. MECT skill explicitly states they do so without bonuses and a straight die roll, which makes a character with MECT far more EFFECTIVE than one without it (MECT also provides the added benefit of reducing piloting penalties, a new feature).

You missed my point again. The reason I say it's less true in RT2e is that, unlike M2 RAW, the Pilot Skill in RT2e's ruleset includes the ability to operate weapons and all onboard systems. That means, objectively, the pilot with just the RT2e pilot skill is more effective at operating the mecha than they would be if they were just using the M2 RAW skill. With M2 RAW, you couldn't fight in a mecha unless you had the Combat Basic or Combat Elite skill. With RT2e RAW, you can fight in a mecha with just the Pilot skill... but not as well as you would if you had MECT.

(TLDR: I'm not actually disagreeing with you on this, I'm pointing out that it's a matter of degree due to rules differences between the editions.)
Last edited by Seto Kaiba on Fri May 28, 2021 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

Sambot wrote:Not necessarily. A stunt pilot needs to know where his aircraft is in relation to everyone else that doesn't change from stunts to combat. You still need to know where everyone is or you crash. Hikaru was also able to seamlessly integrate himself in to the VF's show so he was able to fly with others.

Necessarily enough that Palladium's RAW makes this distinction in several Pilot skills including the Stunt Pilot occupation in the Macross Saga sourcebook's Civilian OCC (which uses Pilot: Jet Aircraft). Even RAW is pretty darn clear that there's a difference between the kind of flying a civilian commercial or private pilot learns and the kind of flying a military pilot learns, and it's explicitly reflected in their writeups of Pilot skills.

I'd also point out that Hikaru wasn't attempting to insinuate himself into a display of combat flying. He, a stunt pilot, was making an impromptu addition to an airshow being put on by trained military stunt pilots... so everyone present was at least working from the same playbook. That was Hikaru in his element. The disasterpiece that followed when Hikaru got into a VF-1D and thrown into actual combat? That's rolling against a skill you don't have. (The VF-1s whose airshow he joined are the UN Spacy's Angel Birds, an Air Display Team equivalent to the US Navy's Blue Angels or US Air Force Thunderbirds.)



Sambot wrote:The difference is he was trying to do something he didn't know how to do. Fly. Pilot Civilian Valkyrie covers Aircraft and GERWALK Modes.

Going back to the previous example, combat flying would also fall under "something [the character] doesn't know how to do" if they have Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie.

As with Pilot: Jet Aircraft vs. Military: Jet Fighter, only the military version of the skill includes familiarity with air combat maneuvers and strategy.

I get where you're coming from, but for consistency with the other skills it really ought to be separate because it wouldn't include certain training that would naturally come with the military version.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Seto wrote:If you were talking about a generic RPG system that is independent of the setting, perhaps... but there is more to it than that once you try to actually incorporate this into a setting.

I'm not looking at a specific setting if that's what you mean, be it RT or its 3 component OSMs include all 3 of those classes of mecha. Given MECT is a supplemental piloting skill (and not the only one present in the RT:TSC RPG) that can be used to drill down to more specific cases, especially if using the penalties for alien/unfamiliar designs.

Seto wrote:Combat awareness of when to transform wouldn't be necessary for a GERWALKroid pilot, sure... but "handling" the transformation is handled by the mecha's airframe control AI. The pilot doesn't need to manually intervene in any meaningful way. With transformation times under 1s, it's not really an area of concern. IIRC, the RPG basically treats transformation as a free action too.

While I agree the transformation is going to be controlled by computers, the pilot may still have to maneuver while undergoing transformation to avoid hazards (enemy fire, flying debris).

Transformation times are 1-2seconds (though some shots in the animation are longer), but at sufficient number of attacks (read level) this can become an issue if the character's attack action is a smaller time frame than the transformation (any character with 7-8 attacks is going to run into this, while not easy to do in M2 until higher levels, with 2E RT it is a bit easier: 4 HTH @ Level 1 +1 Boxing +1 or 2MechaCombat, and you're skirting the edge, any bonus HTH/MechaCombat actions for level).

Seto wrote:You missed my point again. The reason I say it's less true in RT2e is that, unlike M2 RAW, the Pilot Skill in RT2e's ruleset includes the ability to operate weapons and all onboard systems. That means, objectively, the pilot with just the RT2e pilot skill is more effective at operating the mecha than they would be if they were just using the M2 RAW skill. With M2 RAW, you couldn't fight in a mecha unless you had the Combat Basic or Combat Elite skill. With RT2e RAW, you can fight in a mecha with just the Pilot skill... but not as well as you would if you had MECT.

There are a few loop holes in the M2 RAW, and that is the "Weapon Systems" Skill. "This is the complete understanding of weapon units and systems incorporated in military vehicles, power armor, and robot vehicles. It includes lasers, particle beams, rail guns, missile and grenade launchers, cannons, and vehicle/robot weapon systems." (with a later note it does not apply to hand held weapons). The other is that "Pilot Robots & Power Armor skill also posses the basic combat skill for operating 'ground vehicles'", which can be read as Pilot R&PA confers RC: Basic (this is unique to M2 AFAIK).
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by Sambot »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sambot wrote:Not necessarily. A stunt pilot needs to know where his aircraft is in relation to everyone else that doesn't change from stunts to combat. You still need to know where everyone is or you crash. Hikaru was also able to seamlessly integrate himself in to the VF's show so he was able to fly with others.

Necessarily enough that Palladium's RAW makes this distinction in several Pilot skills including the Stunt Pilot occupation in the Macross Saga sourcebook's Civilian OCC (which uses Pilot: Jet Aircraft). Even RAW is pretty darn clear that there's a difference between the kind of flying a civilian commercial or private pilot learns and the kind of flying a military pilot learns, and it's explicitly reflected in their writeups of Pilot skills.


The Stunt Pilot description also says that there's Stunt Pilots in the military. (It really should be more an MOS for a Pilot OCC than an OCC by itself.) So there is skill overlap. The Stunt Pilot OCC also has the skill Aerobatics. The definition of which says it's pretty much the Civilian version of Combat Flying. The bonuses are just a little less. So Hikaru was capable of Combat Flying. Engaging in combat I'd say not without the Weapon Systems skill but he could still fly.


I'd also point out that Hikaru wasn't attempting to insinuate himself into a display of combat flying. He, a stunt pilot, was making an impromptu addition to an airshow being put on by trained military stunt pilots... so everyone present was at least working from the same playbook. That was Hikaru in his element. The disasterpiece that followed when Hikaru got into a VF-1D and thrown into actual combat? That's rolling against a skill you don't have. (The VF-1s whose airshow he joined are the UN Spacy's Angel Birds, an Air Display Team equivalent to the US Navy's Blue Angels or US Air Force Thunderbirds.)


And in doing so insinuated himself into the formation which was incredibly dangerous since he didn't know what the plan was. Even if he'd seen the show before to know what their plans were, he changed those plans by joining them. At that point they were all winging it. He still still had to know where he was in relation to the other craft. (I imagine Roy had to sooth a lot or ruffled feathers and pull a lot of strings off screen to keep Hikaru from the brig. Anybody pulling that stunt in real life would be grounded for life.)

Hikaru's disaster was that he didn't know he was going into combat. He broke through the clouds and found himself in a dogfight and was shocked. It was while he was shocked and trying to understand the situation that he got shot down. If he had gone into combat along with the squadron his situational awareness would have been completely different.




Sambot wrote:The difference is he was trying to do something he didn't know how to do. Fly. Pilot Civilian Valkyrie covers Aircraft and GERWALK Modes.

Going back to the previous example, combat flying would also fall under "something [the character] doesn't know how to do" if they have Pilot: Civilian Valkyrie.

As with Pilot: Jet Aircraft vs. Military: Jet Fighter, only the military version of the skill includes familiarity with air combat maneuvers and strategy.

I get where you're coming from, but for consistency with the other skills it really ought to be separate because it wouldn't include certain training that would naturally come with the military version.


That doesn't mean that a Jet Airline Pilot can't Pilot a Jet Fighter or that a Fighter Pilot can't pilot a Commercial Airliner. In fact many do. The issue is engaging in combat. Not the operation of the craft.

I do agree that some skills should either be included with that skill, such as Combat Flying being included with Pilot: Jet Fighter, or the OCC be upgraded to include Combat Flying. I think the latter would be better. A civilian could always buy a Jet Fighter and pilot it in the same way civilians were buying and flying VF-1 Valkyries in Macross. There's even at least two VF-1 variants made just for civilians. (And that's just the VF-1. Basara had a VF-19.) So Pilot Valkyrie would be good enough to pilot Valkyries. Select one and fly. The rest would have a skill penalty.

Engaging in combat is a different story. To do that you need the Weapons Systems skill, either Combat Flying or Aerobatics skills and at least Mecha Combat Basic for Mecha. Those skills, your average Valkyrie Pilot, or Jet Pilot, or Helicopter Pilot, and so on, aren't going to have.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by Seto Kaiba »

ShadowLogan wrote:I'm not looking at a specific setting if that's what you mean, be it RT or its 3 component OSMs include all 3 of those classes of mecha. Given MECT is a supplemental piloting skill (and not the only one present in the RT:TSC RPG) that can be used to drill down to more specific cases, especially if using the penalties for alien/unfamiliar designs.

My point was more that those categories are excessively broad... it's like saying that military vehicles can all be classified as planes, tanks, and cars. It's superficially true, but it's so utterly generic that it completely loses any useful meaning and assumes that radically different classes of vehicle are functionally interchangeable simply because they belong to the same top-level category.

For the purposes of a Macross II RPG, you can break the mecha choices down into four basic categories: Variable Fighter, Civilian Variable Fighter, Destroid, and Mardook/Zentradi.

Go wider to the rest of Macross and you only add a few more like Powered Suit, Bio-Weapon, Civilian Destroid, and Variable Ground Mecha.

Even if you end up with slightly more skills, it makes far more sense to group them based on the source material's categories as a straightforward functional grouping for transferrable skills. It makes for less screwing around with penalties and such and makes the game better suit the needs of the setting.



ShadowLogan wrote:While I agree the transformation is going to be controlled by computers, the pilot may still have to maneuver while undergoing transformation to avoid hazards (enemy fire, flying debris).

Doesn't really change the response, TBH. A Valkyrie's airframe control AI does all the (literal and figurative) math regarding limb placement and actuator control, so all the pilot needs to worry about is the relative basics like direction and speed. Flying while transforming is not significantly different just flying. The airframe control AI does most of the heavy lifting for the pilot so the pilot can focus on the fight.



ShadowLogan wrote:Transformation times are 1-2seconds (though some shots in the animation are longer), but at sufficient number of attacks (read level) this can become an issue if the character's attack action is a smaller time frame than the transformation (any character with 7-8 attacks is going to run into this, while not easy to do in M2 until higher levels, with 2E RT it is a bit easier: 4 HTH @ Level 1 +1 Boxing +1 or 2MechaCombat, and you're skirting the edge, any bonus HTH/MechaCombat actions for level).

There is a certain amount of dramatic license in play WRT transformations in the animation... the Macross II VFs are noted to transform significantly faster than the VF-1 series, which clocked in at 0.9s-2s depending on transformation per official spec. 1s or sub-1s time for transformation makes it less of an issue though the game system treats transforming as a free action.



ShadowLogan wrote:There are a few loop holes in the M2 RAW, and that is the "Weapon Systems" Skill. "This is the complete understanding of weapon units and systems incorporated in military vehicles, power armor, and robot vehicles. It includes lasers, particle beams, rail guns, missile and grenade launchers, cannons, and vehicle/robot weapon systems." (with a later note it does not apply to hand held weapons). The other is that "Pilot Robots & Power Armor skill also posses the basic combat skill for operating 'ground vehicles'", which can be read as Pilot R&PA confers RC: Basic (this is unique to M2 AFAIK).

Yeah, I mentioned that one a post or so back... though IIRC that skill is variously indicated to be intended for someone operating in a "gunner" role independent of the mecha's pilot. Which isn't all that useful in Macross or Macross II since almost every mecha is a one-seater and the few that aren't are mostly unarmed training aircraft or electronic warfare aircraft (and the number of those sharply declines past a certain point). It's basically only useful for the Monster and Giant Monster Destroids, or for some conventional vehicle types that don't appear in the setting like tanks.




Sambot wrote:The Stunt Pilot description also says that there's Stunt Pilots in the military. (It really should be more an MOS for a Pilot OCC than an OCC by itself.)

Stunt Pilot is an Occupation, the Civilian OCC's equivalent of a MOS. As noted in my previous post, there are military Air Display Teams even in the Spacy... but that overlap is one-directional. There is a reason for these Air Display Team members to learn stunt pilot style flying but there is no reason for a stunt pilot's training to include military air combat discipline and strategy.



Sambot wrote:That doesn't mean that a Jet Airline Pilot can't Pilot a Jet Fighter or that a Fighter Pilot can't pilot a Commercial Airliner. In fact many do. The issue is engaging in combat. Not the operation of the craft.

They actually have to go through a significant amount of retraining in order to do that... because those two categories of aircraft handle very differently and the required reactions are quite different even for normal navigational hazards like heavy turbulence.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by Sambot »

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sambot wrote:The Stunt Pilot description also says that there's Stunt Pilots in the military. (It really should be more an MOS for a Pilot OCC than an OCC by itself.)

Stunt Pilot is an Occupation, the Civilian OCC's equivalent of a MOS. As noted in my previous post, there are military Air Display Teams even in the Spacy... but that overlap is one-directional. There is a reason for these Air Display Team members to learn stunt pilot style flying but there is no reason for a stunt pilot's training to include military air combat discipline and strategy.


Actually, the way civilians are written in the Macross Sourcebook they're not a single occupation with MOSs. They're each a separate OCC. So a Stunt Pilot is the Civilian version of a Combat Pilot.

Yes there's the Air Display Team. They're also an example for why different piloting specialties should be MOSs. Those pilots are trained to fly in very close formations and do stunts. Not things most pilots are trained in. Stunt Piloting is also more than flying in closer quarters formations. They also perform in TV and Movie work. An example of such work is performing dogfights. They still perform all the same stunts and maneuvers that Combat Pilots do. An Immelmann turn is still an Immelmann turn regardless of whether or not the pilot is a civilian. The same goes for every maneuver. Civilians just don't have live rounds coming at them. Which is why their bonuses are lower than Combat Pilots.


Sambot wrote:That doesn't mean that a Jet Airline Pilot can't Pilot a Jet Fighter or that a Fighter Pilot can't pilot a Commercial Airliner. In fact many do. The issue is engaging in combat. Not the operation of the craft.

They actually have to go through a significant amount of retraining in order to do that... because those two categories of aircraft handle very differently and the required reactions are quite different even for normal navigational hazards like heavy turbulence.


The actual act of flying a plane hasn't really changed since the Wright Brothers. The basic controls are the same. It's the details between craft that's the difference. Every pilot who changes craft is going to get some retraining. An F-14 is not going to fly the same as an F-21 and sure isn't going to fly the same as a 747. Cockpits change. Technology changes, Handling changes. Number of engines change. Number of crew to operate. (That goes for all types of vehicles really.) That's where skill penalties come in. The character Russell Casse from Independence day is a perfect example. He's a Vietnam War combat pilot. He'd obviously has Pilot Jet and Combat Flying Skills. I don't know what he flew during Vietnam but it wasn't an F-18. Major Mitchell even tells him and the other volunteers that the F-18 is different from what they flew before and that they're going to get a crash course in modern avionics. In game terms, massive skill penalties. Not because he doesn't know how to fly jet fighters but because he isn't checked out on that aircraft.
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Re: Thoughts on converting Macross II RPG using Robotech 2.0

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Seto wrote:Even if you end up with slightly more skills, it makes far more sense to group them based on the source material's categories as a straightforward functional grouping for transferrable skills. It makes for less screwing around with penalties and such and makes the game better suit the needs of the setting.

I do not see using penalties as an issue. Piloting maneuvers are included in the M2 and 1E RT (along with other PB lines, but not Rifts or 2e RT directly for some reason), and they operate by imposing penalties to the pilot skill check. Use of the alien penalty should not be any more complicated. Imposing penalties is also a known mechanic in how skills work.

I think we agree that lumping them into as few skills as possible makes sense, when something should be separated is the issue.

Really if you are looking for more restrictive use the best way to handle it might be to require RC: Elite/MECT to operate a certain mecha instead of breaking the piloting skill down into multiple versions and having RC/MECT in play on top of it. I do not off-hand know of any megaversal precedent for this in terms of RC:E/MECT Skills (powers yes, skills no), but it really is only a small tweak to the way the system works vs use of a list of house skills. Mechanically it also works in allowing characters to learn new mecha skills a lot easier w/n the existing framework of level advancement should they choose to do so (in RAW, if you have skill acquisitions at a different rate it won't be).

Seto wrote:There is a certain amount of dramatic license in play WRT transformations in the animation... the Macross II VFs are noted to transform significantly faster than the VF-1 series, which clocked in at 0.9s-2s depending on transformation per official spec. 1s or sub-1s time for transformation makes it less of an issue though the game system treats transforming as a free action.

I agree the transformation is treated (almost exclusively*) as a free action, but given the variable nature of a characters action** duration w/n a melee period (15sec) it could be an issue (when times are available).

*
Spoiler:
1E Robotech had the Cyclone use 1 attack action to transform, said note can be found in the Mecha Combat: Expert and Basic skill descriptions in BK 5 or RTII. Interestingly enough the REF Field Guide states the Cyclone transforms in approx. 5sec, along with the Alpha (which doesn't have that note), but as the pilot grows in actions per melee they still only pay 1 when it should logically be higher.

The 2E RT RPG does not have any with that restriction AFAIK.


**
Spoiler:
Depending on how long you treat the transformation, and characters do not get to high in level this generally will not be an issue. I know of only 1 race off-hand from Rifts Phaseworld (Zebuloid in DB5) that starts with 14 attacks per melee at level 1, no that is not a typo, it can take RC skills which would bring something like this into consideration if one is importing aliens to either RT or M2 to add diversity).


Seto wrote:Yeah, I mentioned that one a post or so back... though IIRC that skill is variously indicated to be intended for someone operating in a "gunner" role independent of the mecha's pilot. Which isn't all that useful in Macross or Macross II since almost every mecha is a one-seater and the few that aren't are mostly unarmed training aircraft or electronic warfare aircraft (and the number of those sharply declines past a certain point). It's basically only useful for the Monster and Giant Monster Destroids, or for some conventional vehicle types that don't appear in the setting like tanks.

What you are thinking about is the WP: Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons Skill (TSC pg288m, it isn't in M2), the Weapon Systems skill description does not in fact limit itself to the role of weapon systems position and I reviewed Macross2, Rifts (MB and UE) and Robotech (1E and 2E) description for the skill (and it does change over time).

Megaversally as I said, the WS skill does allow the pilot to use built-in weapons (RUE description of Pilot R&PA specifically cites it, 1E RT's WS description cites it, Rifts-MB and Mac2 mentions it for the Pilot Helicopter skill). Though I will say in its current form the skills "Weapon Systems" and "WP: Heavy M.D. Weapons Skill" are largely redundant in terms of purpose (mechanically they are different).
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